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Title: WTC 7: Silverstein's "Pull It" Explanation Examined
Source:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein_pullit.html
URL Source: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/silverstein_pullit.html
Published: Feb 10, 2007
Author: M Rivero
Post Date: 2007-02-10 20:28:49 by Kamala
Ping List: *9-11* Subscribe to *9-11*
Keywords: 911
Views: 45419
Comments: 467
WTC 7: Silverstein's "Pull It" Explanation Examined On September 9, 2005, Mr. Dara McQuillan, a spokesman for Silverstein Properties, issued the following statement on this issue: Seven World Trade Center collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001, after burning for seven hours. There were no casualties, thanks to the heroism of the Fire Department and the work of Silverstein Properties employees who evacuated tenants from the building. ... In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building. Later in the day, the Fire Commander ordered his firefighters out of the building and at 5:20 p.m. the building collapsed. No lives were lost at Seven World Trade Center on September 11, 2001. As noted above, when Mr. Silverstein was recounting these events for a television documentary he stated, “I said, you know, we've had such terrible loss of life. Maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it.” Mr. McQuillan has stated that by “it,” Mr. Silverstein meant the contingent of firefighters remaining in the building. [US Department of State] There is a problem with the above statement, namely there were no firefighters in WTC 7: "No manual firefighting actions were taken by FDNY." [Fema Report] "There was no firefighting in WTC 7." [Popular Mechanics] "By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from [WTC 7] for safety reasons." [New York Times] Let's have a look at Silverstein's full statement: "I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse." WMV video download (490kB) In summary, the fire department commander said the fire could not be contained, Silverstein said "the smartest thing to do is pull it", and the fire department made the decision to pull. "Pull" is a term used in building demolition... "We're getting ready to pull Building 6" ... "We had to be very careful how we demolished Building 6..." WMV video download (564kB) ...but the US Department of State contends that Silverstein's "pull it" statement refers to withdrawing firefighters from WTC 7. If this was the case then firefighters should have received a message which said something like "World Trade 7 is unsafe. Abandon the building and withdraw from the area." Okay, let's have a look at the language used by firefighters withdrawing from the area of WTC 7: "It's blowin' boy." ... "Keep your eye on that building, it'll be coming down soon." ... "The building is about to blow up, move it back." ... "Here we are walking back. There's a building, about to blow up..." WMV video download (1 MB) The above indicates the message received by the firefighters was "We are going to demolish 7 World Trade. Clear the area." INDRA SINGH EMT: "...by noon or one o'clock they told us we need to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or be brought down." HOST: "Did they actually use the word "brought down" and who was it that was telling you this?" SINGH: "The fire department. And they did use the words 'we're gonna have to bring it down' and for us there observing the nature of the devastation it made total sense to us that this was indeed a possibility..." [Prison Planet] It has also been stated that a 20 second radio countdown preceded the collapse of WTC 7. The statement by Silverstein Properties and the US Department of State also contends there were no deaths in WTC 7 because "pull it" was an evacuation order. This is factually incorrect: Speakers for voice evacuation announcements were located throughout the building and were activated manually at the Fire Control Center (FCC) [WTC 7 Report] It would be impossible to miss an evacuation order. "...I'm on top of building 7 just pulling out rubbish. Pulled out a Port Authority cop at about 11 o'clock in the morning..." WMV video download (597kB) "When 7 World Trade Center came down on Sept. 11, an agent on loan from Washington, special officer Craig Miller, perished..." [PDF download (link expired)] "The Secret Service New York Field Office was located in 7 World Trade Center ... Master Special Officer Craig Miller, died during the rescue efforts." [PDF download] The death of Master Special Officer Craig Miller is another inconsistency in the official explanation of Silverstein's "pull it" comment. Why aren't the numerous inconsistencies questioned by the mainstream media? See also: Larry Silverstein, WTC 7, and the 9/11 Demolition The 9/11 WTC Collapses: An Audio-Video Analysis What Really Happened Email This Page To A Friend
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#350. To: Red Jones, ALL (#336)
Red, please add width = 731 before the final > when posting large images. Otherwise the thread text margins get messed up.
And where would that edit button be? Perhaps you should use it to correct the width of the images you posted?
True. There is one. ROTFLOL! You probably do every day. Unless you are a hermit.
Ok, I am willing to admit I was wrong about this. But the core could have supported the entire vertical load since it was over engineered. It wasn't designed to support the lateral load, but it would only have to support the lateral load if the perimeter columns were gone, and only a relatively small number were severed by the planes so that shouldn't have been a factor in the collapse.
God is always good! You probably do every day. Unless you are a hermit. I said the ones who sincerely believe the government's theory of the collapse of the WTC towers. There can't be too many that sincerely believe that story, at least I hope not.
God is always good! If you think the equation to prove the WTC buildings collapsed according to the government's theory can be done with a simple equation then why the heck haven't you or one of those structural engineers that agrees with the government's ludicrous theory done it yet?
God is always good! >True. There is one. ROTFLOL! The other structural engineers who sincerely believe the government's theory are the ones I am most concerned about. I wouldn't want to ever go in any building those people design. >You probably do every day. Unless you are a hermit. The structural engineers that believe the government's theory must not know that concrete doesn't turn to dust and sever massive box columns just because it falls the height one floor's distance in the WTC towers. If they don't know that then it is about time to start educating these dunces about the facts of the matter. Here is a picture of a bridge in Lebanon that was hit with Israeli missiles last summer. Note, it fell further than the height of one floor of the WTC towers and had a missile propelling it down at a faster than gravity rate, yet the concrete did not turn to dust upon hitting the ground. Supposedly the concrete in the WTC towers turned to dust after falling the height of a mere floor's distance with only gravity pulling it down. And supposedly even though it turned to dust it somehow managed to sever all 47 core columns every few floors.
God is always good! You are reduced to calling me a liar because your handler 911 debunking sites
either don't have all the information, or they are hoping that no one reveals
all the contradictions in the report. One more time, you must READ not
ccp. All information isn't on the internet. Books and papers can be bought or
sent for in the mail also. There are no lies or falsehoods. When I quote
the NIST report, its the final draft release in the late summer of 2005 not a
2003 NYT article. NIST states that the majority of damage and heating was
directly in the impact area. The problem with the NIST report is that it is
full of contradictions that have no real scientific forensic proof. NIST
states that majority airframe that impacted the WTC 2 was crushed in 0.2
seconds by floor slabs and the 100,000 psi outer perimeter columns. The NIST
final report refers to these sagging floors as hanging floors along the east
face of the WTC 2. There are multiple photos that show the hanging floors
before collapse and right after impact. There appears to be no difference
between the two photos in the elapsed timeframe. NIST concluded that while
the impacts MAY have destroyed and removed the ceiling tiles from the direct
impact area the vibration played no role in shaking off the 2.2-2.5 inches of
upgraded SFRM, and NIST left this out of its final draft. Why don't you
ccp and discuss NISTs shotgun experiment on how SFRM can be widely dislodged?
Or how it was quickly inserted at the very end in a 12 page add on. Just a
layman looking at that experiment would be questioning how that would
translate to the impacts. NIST treated this investigation like a research
project. All physical evidence and experimentation was disgarded for computer
modeling. Computer simulations are not proof or evidence of anything. The
NIST report is a cross between voodoo/witch doctor science and the
Roadrunner/Wiley Coyote cartoons.
Mark "I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. [..] and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... — Former NYC Police Officer and 9/11 Rescue Worker Craig Bartmer
The corn flake who posts here?
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
Red, I'm going to edit out your huge jpgs in post #336. It's thrown off the whole thread.
I didn't say equation. I said calculation. But now that you mention it ... http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf ROTFLOL!
SKY: Notice that I'm the only qualified airline pilot illustrating the undeniable aviation fraud, involved in 9-11. BAC: ROTFLOL! I'm Captain qualified on the B-727, B-737, B-747, B-757, B-767 & DC-10. That doesn't meet the test of "qualified?" Or, if there is another such qualified pilot speaking out - loudly - on the corruption of 9-11; please give me a contact.
I apologize. In keeping with my new approach to dealing with you folks, I shouldn't express an opinion that you deliberately posted false information. I must give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you just didn't read the NIST reports but read what you posted at some conspiracy website. Perhaps a pretty girl caught your eye at a critical moment while you were reading it. But regardless, what you posted was not true. But the impact area extends through the building to the other side. You wished to give folks the impression it is only where the entrance hole was located. Actually, it doesn't say that. I says that the structural elements shredded the plane ... and at the same time, the plane did great damage to the structural elements ... indeed, severing many columns in the core area well away from the entrance hole. I challenge you to post a photo that shows sagging floors right after impact. I bet you can't do it. You are again stating misinformation. By all means, post the exact statements and URL the reports where you get this claim. Here's what it says in the final report: "aircraft debris resulted in substantial damage to the nonstructural building contents (partitions and workstations) and also in dislodging of fireproofing." "The extent of dislodged fireproofing was estimated by considering fireproofing damage only to structural components in the direct pat of debris." I suggest you take a closer look at the results of Project 2 of NCSTAR1-6: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1-6.pdf You will find it says this: "insulation damage estimates were limited to areas subject to direct debris impact. Other sources of floor and insulation damage from the aircraft impact and fires (e.g., insulation damage due to shock and subsequent vibrations as a result of aircraft impact or concrete slab cracking and spalling as a result of thermal effects) were not included in the floor models." That doesn't say what you claimed they said about vibrations. And neither does this, from the same final report: "since NIST was not able to establish robust criteria to predict the extent of vibration-induced dislodgement, insulation dislodged by inertial effects other than that dislodged by direct debris impact was ignored and not included in the analyses." And neither does this: "The insulation damage estimates were conservative as they ignored possibly damaged and dislodged insulation in a much larger region that was not in the direct path of the debris but was subject to strong vibrations during and after the aircraft impact. A robust criteria to generate a coherent pattern of vibration-induced dislodging could not be established due to (1) the numerical noise inherent in the acceleration time-histories on structural components obtained from the aircraft impact analyses, and (2) lack of data on the strength of insulation materials under such a high rate of loading with sharp peaks in a very short duration. However, there were indications that insulation damage occurred over a larger region than that estimated. Photographic evidence showed insulation dislodged from exterior columns not directly impacted by debris (NIST NCSTAR 1-3C). The towers underwent a period of strong impact loading fro about .6 to .7 s. Further, video analysis showed that WTC 2 vibrated for over 4 minutes after aircraft impact with amplitudes in excess of 20 inches at the roof top (NIST NCSTAR 1-5A). First person interviews of building occupants indicated that building vibrations due to aircraft impact were strong enough to dislodge ceiling tiles and collapse walls throughout the height of both WTC towers and to cause nearly all elevators to stop functioning (NIST NCSTAR 1-7)." So it looks like you are completely wrong in claiming that NIST said " vibration played no role in shaking off" insulation. Did you just fail to see the comments above? Did you get your claim from some other source? I wouldn't want to think you deliberately lied to us, Mark. Really, I wouldn't want to think that.
It's such a shame they are not allowing you to pilot them any longer. Or has your situation changed for the better?
I'm qualified, or I'm not. {Yeah, I'm qualified - though unemployed.)
Well dang, then. I flew a Cessna 150 for an hour or so. Was so much fun. The instructor said I was a natural. Course that was in the air on a nice day and I sure didn't land the beast.
Ha, ha! Again, attacks, name calling, etc.. I thought you were not going to dissect posts word by word, or line by line or paragraph by paragraph. You love playing with word and sentence semantics. Old, tired tricks are hard to break. 4UM is my home field. Its my rules, my ball, my game. If you don't like it, don't reply. You will get nothing as far as sources. Zero. If you think I'm going to help point you in any direction you are mistaken. In the NIST, there are so many sections, chapters, add ons, project reports, appendixes and supplementary documents, it a giant jigsaw mess. The search engine dosen't even work well. The longer you carry this out, the more exposure the NIST gets as nothing more than a computer simulated research project. Out of all that you ccp'ed, all one needs to read is this "NIST was not able to establish robust criteria to predict the extent of vibration-induced dislodgement". Which means there was no proof that vibration "widely dislodged" the SFRM. In its severe computer simulations, NIST removes all the SFRM from the impact hole through the debris path. Even though it has no evidence of how the SFRM could be widely dislodged by shearing or any other means in the debris path. No proof, no evidence, the hypothesis doesn't exist. NIST tried to prove that shearing from debris may remove the SFRM. The shotgun/ wooden box test NIST ran proves nothing and actually proves how adhesive and tough the spray on fireproofing was. Even without SFRM, the time the office fires burned in the area of limited outer girder bowing, wasn't long enough to raise steel temperatures. The limited heating and suspected loss of SFRM to the perimeter columns played no role in the collapse. All steel tested from the fire zones bare this out. Aircraft impact areas and debris path are totally different. NIST could only see around 3 meters into the towers. Any computer modeling of a debris path is complete speculation. NIST had problems with the computer simulations from the very start. No matter what airliner impact case NIST plugged into the model A,B,C or D, no simulation produced the observable events of impact and the debris path. That means ALL cases were incorrect. This also means the modeling of the workstations and the inner area of the towers were wrong, and the impact simulation were also incorrect. NIST still chose to go with the most severe case because the others, even though no more or less correct, resulted in collapse, while the others did not. Another take I have on the NIST is that, just in case, the real truth about 911 is revealed, NIST has its back covered. There is enough truth in the report, but the pre determined conclusions were politically influenced. So, all NIST would have to claim is, we had the data, but we couldn't "connect the dots". Sounds familiar. The government fairytale is in serious trouble. Over 80% believe there is a cover up. You and others are losing, and losing badly.
Mark "I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. [..] and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... — Former NYC Police Officer and 9/11 Rescue Worker Craig Bartmer
I agree. There's always the dumb ones and the brainwashed ones. The others are complicit knowingly or unwittingly. Begininng with BushBakerSaudiCheneyInc, they deserve a traitor's consequence, at the least.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
BAC is dependent upon the spam-attack. The troll is hungry - and desperate. He's poisoning the forum, as when any researcher - of any caliber - comes here, they see vitriolic controversy and don't take anything on the forum seriously. If a professional researcher comes here, their editor shoots down the source. That being said, if I were Christine, I'd ban BAC and erase related postings - making him the proverbial un-person.
hehehe I had my run ins with YouCon. A bunch of us have. I still go there once in a while to ruffle some feathers. :)
Didn't I already prove this to be a bogus claim at LP? You showed us pictures claiming to show sagging floors. If they show sagging floors, then the floors have to be disconnected from the perimeter columns. If they are disconnected from the perimeter columns then they cannot exert any inward force on those columns. So which is the lie chooser? That the pictures show sagging floors, or that sagging floors pulled in the columns?
BeAChooser? i don't see him. ;) (when it gets to the point where no one here wants to feed him, he'll have to go elsewhere or starve)
I can't either. I don't know who you're talking about. :) [Some have already "banned" him Skydrifter. When he gets tired of talking to himself, he'll move along. He's admitted to over 40 bozos.]
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell hehehehe. checkmate. :P
BAC? Who dat?
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
ROTFLOL! BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong! If you're going to post BS at least post BS that doesn't start lying in in the first paragraph. LMFAO!!!!
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZ! Wrong! If you're going to post BS at least post BS that doesn't start lying in in the first paragraph. LMFAO!!!! You tell 'em! LOL!!! The open air [dirty burn] burning temp of kerosene [Jet-A] is 260-315 °C (500-599 °F). The WTC was indeed a dirty burn. Hardley enough to melt steel. LOL! My best friend is a fireman. He's been in house fires so hot the TV completely melted...as did most everything else. Amazing how those WOODEN house wall beams, even though scorched and blackened, still remained standing after the roof collapsed in that house fire. Ain't no way in hell a fire is gonna' melt that building and make it collapse into its own footprint...3 times!
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell Here ... just so readers understand the logic used by NIST ... excerpts from http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR 1-2.pdf (the final NIST report on this subject): *********** 5.2.3 Damage to Fire Protection for Structural Steel The aircraft impact simulation models included not only the structural components of the towers and aircraft, but also representations of the partition walls and building contents and furnishings (modular office workstations). The results of the analyses included damage to the partition walls, workstations, and structural elememts. Such damage estimates were crucial for the estimation of areas with dislodged insulation as explained in this section. Estimates of the post-impact condition of the fire protection was based on criteria that considered damage to structural components, building partitions, and furnishings along with the debris field as calculated from the aircraft impact analyses. Estimates for the extent of dislodged insulation considered insulation damage to structural components only in the direct path of debris, as follows: - Core columns had sprayed fire-resistance material (SFRM), gypsum wallboard enclosures, or a combination of both. Insulation was assumed to be dislodged from the columns if they were subject to direct debris impact that could fail wall partitions in the immediate vicinity. The representative bending strength of building partitions in the impact simulations was 500 psi (NIST NCSTAR 1-2), while the representative adhesion and cohesive strength of SFRM measured in the laboratory by NIST was generally less than 12 psi (NIST NCSTAR 1-6A). Gypsum column enclosures were also assumed to have a lesser representative strength than wall columns. To consider that insulation on core columns was damaged, the predicted debris impact had to be sufficient to fail building partitions immediately in front of the columns. If the wall partitions remained intact in the core area after interactions with the debris field, then the insulation on core columns behind these partitions was assumed to remain intact. If wall partitions were damaged or destroyed by the debris field, then insulation on core columns behind these partitions was assumed to be dislodged over that floor height. - To consider that insulation on exterior columns was damaged, the debris impact had to damage or destroy office furnishings (modular office workstations) adjacent to the columns. If the office furnishings remained intact after interaction with the debris field, then the insulation on the inside face of the exterior columns behind these furnishings was assumed to remain intact. If the room furnishings were damaged or destroyed after interaction with the debris field, then the insulation on the inside face of the exterior columns in the vicinity was assumed to be dislodged over that floor height. The other three faces of the exterior columns were protected by windows and/or aluminum cladding and were assumed to have no insulation damage. - To consider that SFRM on floor trusses was damaged, the debris impact had to be sufficient to damage or destroy room furnishings (modular office furniture) in the same area of the affected floor. If the room furnishings remained intact, then the insulation on the steel trusses above the furnishings was assumed to remain intact. If the room furnishings were damaged or destroyed by the debris field, then the insulation on the steel trusses above these furnishings was assumed to be dislodged. The insulation damage estimates were conservative as they ignored damage and dislodged insulation in a much larger region that was not in the direct path of the debris but was subject to strong vibrations during and after the aircraft impact (BAC - the rest of this paragraph was quoted earlier but basically it indicates that photographic evidence shows that vibrations were sufficient to dislodge insulation from structural elements not impacted by debris.) **************** Anyone interested can read NCSTAR 1-6 and will find figures showing the damage zones in the aircraft impact model and figures showing the areas where fireproofing was assumed removed in subsequent the temperature/structural models. I know you will all rush out to read the report for yourself. Oh, so it is your *expert* opinion that debris which could destroy partitions and structural members in the analysis models could not remove sprayed on fireproofing with measured adhesive and cohesive strength of less than 12 psi? You provide more evidence that you haven't a clue what you are talking about and that you haven't actually read the NIST documents. First, the steel tests actually validate the NIST modeling because the tested specimens did not come for the regions in the simulations where they found the highest temperatures. They came from regions in the models where similar temperatures to those determined for those test specimens were calculated. Second, the steel test procedures used were limited to specimens subject to relatively low temperatures (roughly 250 C) because they depended on paint still being on the specimens. Third, the detailed analyses done by NIST and reported in NCSTAR 1-6 clearly show that the temperatures in structural members without fireproofing were indeed high enough for long enough to seriously weaken those structural members. Right. You are such an *expert*. False. Just thought I'd let your readers know they they probably should go read the NIST reports before believing you or quoting you. They do that and they are liable to embarrass themselves. The impact modeling is discussed in great detail in http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR 1-2.pdf. Allow me to quote from that report for WTC 1: "The exterior wall damage was the one structural system for which direct visual evidence of the impact damage was available. Therefore, the comparison of the calculated and observed exterior wall damage provided a partial validation of the analysis methodologies used in the global impact analyses. A comparison of the north exterior wall observed and calculated damage from the base case WTC 1 global impact analysis is shown in Figure E-28. The comparison of the calculated and observed damage indicated that the geometry and location of the impact damage zone were in good agreement. This agreement in the position and shape of the impact damage served to validate the geometry of the aircraft model, including the aircraft orientation, trajectory, and flight distortions of the wings." "The comparison also indicated a good agreement in the magnitude and mode of impact damage on the exterior wall. The exterior wall completely failed in the regions of the fuselage, engine, and fuel-filled wing section impacts. Damage to the exterior wall was observed all the way out to the wing tips, but the exterior columns were not completely failed in the outer wing and vertical stabilizer impact regions. Failure of the exterior columns occurred both at the bolted connections between the column ends and at various locations in the column depending on local severity of the impact load and the proximity of the bolted connection to the impact. The agreement of both the mode and magnitude of the impact damage served to partially validate the constitutive and damage modeling of the aircraft and exterior wall of the tower." Now here is what the report says about base case WTC 2 analysis: "The comparison of the calculated and observed damage indicated that the geometry and location of the impact damage were in good agreement. This agreement served to validate the geometry of the aircraft model, including the aircraft orientation, trajectory, and flight distortions of the wings. The agreement of both the mode and magnitude of impact damage served to partially validate the constitutive and damage modeling of the aircraft and exterior wall of the tower." And for the more severe case analysis: "The calculated damage to the south wall from the more severe WTC 2 global impact analysis is shown in Figure E-54. A comparison of the south exterior wall observed (Figure E-46a) and calculated (Figure E-54) damage from the more severe WTC 2 global impact analysis indicated that the calculated and observed magnitude and mode of impact damage were still in good agreement." And then there is this from the same report ***************** "The observables available to help validate the global impact analyses included the following: - Damage to the building exterior (exterior walls and floors in the immediate vicinity of the impact) documented by photographic evidence. - Aircraft debris external to the towers (landing gear for WTC 1 and a landing gear and an engine for WTC 2) as documented by photographic evidence. - Eyewitness accounts from survivors who were inside the towers (blocked or passable stairwells). An example of such comparison was a detailed comparison between the observed and calculated damage (from the base case analysis) to the north wall of WTC 1 and the south wall of WTC 2. The comparison included the mode, magnitude, and location of failure around the hole creatd by the aircraft impact. The color code included in the following: (1) green circles indicating a proper match of the failure mode and magnitude between the observed and calculated damage, (2) yellow circles indicating a proper match in the failure mode, but not the magnitude, (3) red circles indicating that the failure mode and magnitude predicted by the calculation did not match that was observed, and (4) black circles indicating that the observed damage was obscured by smoke, fire or other factors. The comparisons shown in Figure E-62 and Figure E-63 for WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively, indicate the overall agreement with the observed damage was very good." Not all the observables were perfectly matched by the simulations due to the uncertainties in exact impact conditions, the imperfect knowledge of the interior tower contents, the chaotic behavior of the aircraft breakup and subsequent debris motion, and the limitations of the models. In general, however, the results of the simulations matched these observables reasonably well." ******************** So again, we find you aren't being totally accurate about your description of NIST findings. Why do we continue to encounter this problem, Mark? Well it would appear they are too busy following the Spears and Smith stories to fact check what they are being told by folks like you.
BAC, your spam has no significant effect here. Suck up to Goldi & get back to her cesspool. A stopwatch says that all three buildings were brought down with controlled demolition - you can't escape that. Follow the money; same story.
No, you didn't and I invite everyone to go visit this thread on LP where we discussed this: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=158333&Disp=All&#C28 In fact, since you want to discuss topics you and I have discussed at LP, here are some more that I'm sure readers may find interesting ... if not entertaining: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=148183&SC=260&EC=299#C283 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=148667&Disp=149#C149 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=148755&SC=81&EC=120#C101 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=151092&Disp=49#C49 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=151407&SC=217&EC=253#C217 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=152102&Disp=145#C145 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=153723&Disp=168#C168 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=153837&Disp=91#C91 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=154158&Disp=20#C20 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=154472&Disp=7#C7 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=155009&Disp=59#C59 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=155166&Disp=49#C49 http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=155433&Disp=97#C97 Read those threads, folks. Read them in the order they are listed. They show a side of critter I bet you didn't know ... A distortion of what was shown and said. The images do show floors disconnected from the perimeter wall ON ONE SIDE OF THE BUILDING. But OBVIOUSLY, they are connected on others (otherwise, they wouldn't sag). One of those connected sides is the side, by the way, where the outer wall was observed bowing inward.
Like I said to SKYDRIFTER previously: I distinctly remember whole threads devoted to the topic of my not daring to come over here and debate you folks. And as any reader of this forum can see, I've been very courteous. No labels, no name calling. Just sourced facts and logic that don't seem to jibe with some of the articles and *facts* FD4UMers have been posting. Now FD4UMers could debate those facts and logic with credible sourced articles and logic of your own. But you are choosing not to do that. Instead, the general response is to use the bozo filter and, in some cases, call for my banning. Along with numerous posts throwing out mountains of adhominems directed at me. That's rather suggestive of a group that does not want to be challenged about what they claim and believe. Or a group that can't compete debate-wise.
I always find it hilarious when a poster who admits to only reading one side of a debate, does this. The bozo filter is aptly named, perhaps.
Putting aside the fact that melting steel is not part of the collapse scenario, let me just point out to everyone reading this thread that jet fuel wasn't the only material to burn in the WTC towers. And fires can get quite hot even without jet fuel as a starter. The Windsor Tower fire in Madrid, for example, had MEASURED temperatures of over 1400 F. And then there are sources like this: http://911myths.com/html/wtc_molten_steel.html Too bad that IndieTX will never see that website. He bozo'd himself.
My only concern is, will we have enough rope? ;)
Why would you bring up Madrid? One steel-framed building burned for 18 hours and never fell. Then another steel-framed building burned all day, and as you say burned hotter than WTC1 WTC2 or WTC7. fell. http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/windsor.html Before examining the partial collapse of the Windsor building more closely, we note that steel-framed and steel-reinforced-concrete-framed structures behave very differently in fires. The observation that the Windsor Building is the only skyscraper to have suffered even a partial collapse as a result of fire suggests that the use of steel-reinforced-concrete framing was responsible. A closer look at the incident shows reality to be more complex. The portion of the building that collapsed consisted of the outer portions of floor slabs and perimeter walls throughout the upper third of the building (the 21st through 32nd floors). The outer walls consisted of steel box columns arranged on 1.8 meter centers and connected by narrow spandrel plates. The columns had square cross-sections 120mm on a side, and were fabricated of C-sections 7mm thick welded together. (these were a fraction of the dimensions, and spaced about twice as far apart as the perimeter columns of the Twin Towers.) The perimeter columns lacked fireproofing throughout the upper third of the Windsor building. 4 The Windsor Building fire engulfed the upper third of the building, but also spread downward as low as the fourth floor. A report by two fire safety experts in Japan highlighted three causes for the very wide extent of the fire: Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush quite tame idea, unless of course it's a public spectacle in Washington Square with a proclaimed National Holiday...we don't have any in March.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
Well said. 80 something floors being "pancaked" would add much more time than 1 sec. to the time in which the roof goes to the ground. And when you watch building 7 falling with the entire facade falling together as one uniform piece it becomes obvious to anyone with and IQ in the 3 digits.
Why? Because so many are filtering you.
ROTFLOL! Being isolated over here at FD4UM, I guess you never heard that the structure had a reinforced concrete frame from the 17th floor on down and the steel framed portions of it (above the 17th floor) all collapsed within about 4 hours of the fire reaching those portions. ******** http://www.concretecentre.com/main.asp?page=1095 The Madrid Windsor Tower Building Fire, 14-15 February 2005 * Landmark 29-floor tower on Madrid skyline remained standing despite a 26-hour, multiple-floor fire. * Despite a complete burn-out, the strength provided by a technical concrete floor, plus the passive fire resistance of the building's concrete core and frame, prevented the building from collapse. * The only part of the building to collapse was the network of steel perimeter columns supporting the slab on the upper floors. * The building was in the process of refurbishment and fireproofing to modern standards when the fire occurred; some fireproofing was being provided on the steel perimeter columns. * NIST's interim report on the World Trade Center disaster recommends the inclusion of 'strong points' within the building frame design - the Madrid Windsor Building's strong points were its two concrete 'technical' floors and the concrete core system enabling the building to survive complete burnout. * This case study is an example of the excellent performance of a concrete frame designed using traditional methods and subjected to an intense fire. It also highlights the risks when active fire protection measures fail or are not included in steel frame construction. ... snip ... The building totalled 32 storeys, with 29 floors above ground and three below. A concrete core and concrete frame supported the first 16 floors. Above that was a central support system of concrete columns, supporting concrete floors with steel perimeter columns. An additional feature was the presence of two 'technical floors' - concrete floors designed to give the building more strength. One was just above the ground level and the other at the 17th floor. ... snip ... Because of the height of the structure and the extent of the blaze, firefighters could only mount a containment operation and ensure that neighbouring buildings were protected. The fire eventually finished 26 hours later, leaving a complete burn-out above the fifth floor. The steel-glass façade was completely destroyed, exposing the concrete perimeter columns. The steel columns above the 17th floor suffered complete collapse, partially coming to rest on the upper technical floor. ************* You won't find the truth on a foundation of misinformation, robin.
Try reading the entire post. I mentioned both buildings and linked to good info on both.
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush Try understanding that the Windsor Tower was not just a steel framed building. Try understanding that ALL the portions of the Windsor Tower that relied on a steel frame did in fact collapse. Try understanding that the Windsor Tower fire was not started by jet fuel (unlike the WTC), the building wasn't damaged by an impact (unlike the WTC), the fires were fought by firemen (unlike the WTC) and what burned was just office contents (same stuff found in the WTC towers). You will never find the truth on a foundation of misinformation.
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#351. To: Red Jones (#340)
I would press the 'edit' button if I were you.
#352. To: RickyJ, ALL (#342)
Not all structural engineers agree that the towers did not come down with explosives,
The other structural engineers who sincerely believe the government's theory are the ones I am most concerned about. I wouldn't want to ever go in any building those people design.
#353. To: BeAChooser (#316)
the exterior columns were designed structurally such that they resisted the total lateral loads and about 50 percent of gravity loads."
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#354. To: BeAChooser (#352)
The other structural engineers who sincerely believe the government's theory are the ones I am most concerned about. I wouldn't want to ever go in any building those people design.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#355. To: BeAChooser (#316)
You never did get around to running that simple calculation I suggested, did you, Ricky.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#356. To: BeAChooser (#352)
(Edited)
Not all structural engineers agree that the towers did not come down with explosives,
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#357. To: BeAChooser, Skydrifter, Angle, Critter, Corn Flake Girl, Diana, Robin, BTP Holdings, All, *9-11* (#329)
#358. To: Ferret Mike (#328)
Several Corn Flake dances:
#359. To: Red Jones (#336)
#360. To: RickyJ, ALL (#355)
If you think the equation to prove the WTC buildings collapsed according to the government's theory can be done with a simple equation
#361. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#333)
#362. To: Kamala, Skydrifter, Angle, Critter, Corn Flake Girl, Diana, Robin, BTP Holdings, All (#357)
You are reduced to calling me a liar
NIST states that the majority of damage and heating was directly in the impact area.
NIST states that majority airframe that impacted the WTC 2 was crushed in 0.2 seconds by floor slabs and the 100,000 psi outer perimeter columns.
The NIST final report refers to these sagging floors as hanging floors along the east face of the WTC 2. There are multiple photos that show the hanging floors before collapse and right after impact. There appears to be no difference between the two photos in the elapsed timeframe.
NIST concluded that while the impacts MAY have destroyed and removed the ceiling tiles from the direct impact area the vibration played no role in shaking off the 2.2-2.5 inches of upgraded SFRM, and NIST left this out of its final draft.
#363. To: SKYDRIFTER (#361)
I'm Captain qualified on the B-727, B-737, B-747, B-757, B-767 & DC-10.
#364. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#363)
#365. To: SKYDRIFTER (#361)
I'm Captain qualified on the B-727, B-737, B-747, B-757, B-767 & DC-10.
#366. To: BeAChooser, Intotheabyss, Corn Flake Girl, Tom007, Jethro Tull, Robin, Diana, RickyJ, Skydrifter, Christine, Angle, All, *9-11* (#362)
#367. To: Kamala (#366)
The government fairytale is in serious trouble. Over 80% believe there is a cover up. You and others are losing, and losing badly.
#368. To: Kamala, Critter, Scrapper2, Christine, Aristeides, Honway, Robin, Diana, All (#366)
#369. To: Corn Flake Girl (#303)
One poster named Yukon
I don't want to be a martyr, I want to win! - Me
#370. To: BeAChooser (#316)
damaged as the sagging floors pulled on the outer columns.
I don't want to be a martyr, I want to win! - Me
#371. To: SKYDRIFTER (#368)
#372. To: christine, skydrifter (#371)
BeAChooser? i don't see him. ;)
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX
#373. To: Kamala (#366)
#374. To: SKYDRIFTER (#368)
I'd ban BAC and erase related postings
#375. To: BeAChooser (#360)
http://www-math.mit.edu/~bazant/WTC/WTC-asce.pdf
In stage 1 (Fig. 1), the conflagration caused by the aircraft fuel spilled into the structure causes the steel of the columns to be exposed to sustained temperatures apparently exceeding 800°C. The heating is probably accelerated by a loss of the protective thermal insulation of steel during the initial blast.
I don't want to be a martyr, I want to win! - Me
#376. To: Critter (#375)
(Edited)
In stage 1 (Fig. 1), the conflagration caused by the aircraft fuel spilled into the structure causes the steel of the columns to be exposed to sustained temperatures apparently exceeding 800°C. The heating is probably accelerated by a loss of the protective thermal insulation of steel during the initial blast.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX
#377. To: Kamala, Intotheabyss, Corn Flake Girl, Tom007, Jethro Tull, Robin, Diana, RickyJ, Skydrifter, Christine, Angle, All (#366)
In its severe computer simulations, NIST removes all the SFRM from the impact hole through the debris path.
Even though it has no evidence of how the SFRM could be widely dislodged by shearing or any other means in the debris path.
Even without SFRM, the time the office fires burned in the area of limited outer girder bowing, wasn't long enough to raise steel temperatures. The limited heating and suspected loss of SFRM to the perimeter columns played no role in the collapse. All steel tested from the fire zones bare this out.
Aircraft impact areas and debris path are totally different. NIST could only see around 3 meters into the towers. Any computer modeling of a debris path is complete speculation.
No matter what airliner impact case NIST plugged into the model A,B,C or D, no simulation produced the observable events of impact and the debris path.
The government fairytale is in serious trouble. Over 80% believe there is a cover up. You and others are losing, and losing badly.
#378. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#377)
#379. To: Critter, ALL (#370)
"damaged as the sagging floors pulled on the outer columns."
Didn't I already prove this to be a bogus claim at LP?
You showed us pictures claiming to show sagging floors. If they show sagging floors, then the floors have to be disconnected from the perimeter columns. If they are disconnected from the perimeter columns then they cannot exert any inward force on those columns.
#380. To: christine, SKYDRIFTER, IndieTX, angle, ALL (#371)
BeAChooser? i don't see him. ;)
(when it gets to the point where no one here wants to feed him, he'll have to go elsewhere or starve)
#381. To: christine, Kamala, ALL (#373)
#373. To: Kamala (#366)
hehehehe. checkmate. :P
christine posted on 2007-02-21 19:27:31 ET
#382. To: IndieTX, ALL (#376)
The open air [dirty burn] burning temp of kerosene [Jet-A] is 260-315 °C (500-599 °F). The WTC was indeed a dirty burn. Hardley enough to melt steel.
#383. To: angle (#367)
Begininng with BushBakerSaudiCheneyInc, they deserve a traitor's consequence, at the least.
#384. To: BeAChooser (#382)
And fires can get quite hot even without jet fuel as a starter. The Windsor Tower fire in Madrid, for example, had MEASURED temperatures of over 1400 F. And then there are sources like this:
The Windsor Building after the fire was extinguished Windsor Building Partial Collapse
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#385. To: intotheabyss (#383)
(Edited)
will we have enough rope?
#386. To: SKYDRIFTER (#378)
A stopwatch says that all three buildings were brought down with controlled demolition
#387. To: BeAChooser (#381)
The bozo filter is aptly named, perhaps.
#388. To: robin, ALL (#384)
Why would you bring up Madrid? One steel-framed building burned for 18 hours and never fell.
#389. To: BeAChooser (#388)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#390. To: robin, ALL (#389)
Try reading the entire post.
I mentioned both buildings and linked to good info on both.
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