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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Iraq's death toll is far worse than our leaders admit
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/118356
Published: Feb 14, 2007
Author: Les Roberts
Post Date: 2007-02-14 09:58:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 31739
Comments: 457

The US and Britain have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide

14 February 2007

On both sides of the Atlantic, a process of spinning science is preventing a serious discussion about the state of affairs in Iraq.

The government in Iraq claimed last month that since the 2003 invasion between 40,000 and 50,000 violent deaths have occurred. Few have pointed out the absurdity of this statement.

There are three ways we know it is a gross underestimate. First, if it were true, including suicides, South Africa, Colombia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia have experienced higher violent death rates than Iraq over the past four years. If true, many North and South American cities and Sub-Saharan Africa have had a similar murder rate to that claimed in Iraq. For those of us who have been in Iraq, the suggestion that New Orleans is more violent seems simply ridiculous.

Secondly, there have to be at least 120,000 and probably 140,000 deaths per year from natural causes in a country with the population of Iraq. The numerous stories we hear about overflowing morgues, the need for new cemeteries and new body collection brigades are not consistent with a 10 per cent rise in death rate above the baseline.

And finally, there was a study, peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal, which put the death toll at 650,000 as of last July. The study, which I co-authored, was done by the standard cluster approach used by the UN to estimate mortality in dozens of countries each year. While the findings are imprecise, the lower range of possibilities suggested that the Iraq government was at least downplaying the number of dead by a factor of 10.

There are several reasons why the governments involved in this conflict have been able to confuse the issue of Iraqi deaths. Our Lancet report involved sampling and statistical analysis, which is rather dry reading. Media reports always miss most deaths in times of war, so the estimate by the media-based monitoring system, http://Iraqbodycount.org (IBC) roughly corresponds with the Iraq government's figures. Repeated evaluations of deaths identified from sources independent of the press and the Ministry of Health show the IBC listing to be less than 10 per cent complete, but because it matches the reports of the governments involved, it is easily referenced.

Several other estimates have placed the death toll far higher than the Iraqi government estimates, but those have received less press attention. When in 2005, a UN survey reported that 90 per cent of violent attacks in Scotland were not recorded by the police, no one, not even the police, disputed this finding. Representative surveys are the next best thing to a census for counting deaths, and nowhere but Iraq have partial tallies from morgues and hospitals been given such credence when representative survey results are available.

The Pentagon will not release information about deaths induced or amounts of weaponry used in Iraq. On 9 January of this year, the embedded Fox News reporter Brit Hume went along for an air attack, and we learned that at least 25 targets were bombed that day with almost no reports of the damage appearing in the press.

Saddam Hussein's surveillance network, which only captured one third of all deaths before the invasion, has certainly deteriorated even further. During last July, there were numerous televised clashes in Anbar, yet the system recorded exactly zero violent deaths from the province. The last Minister of Health to honestly assess the surveillance network, Dr Ala'din Alwan, admitted that it was not reporting from most of the country by August 2004. He was sacked months later after, among other things, reports appeared based on the limited government data suggesting that most violent deaths were associated with coalition forces.

The consequences of downplaying the number of deaths in Iraq are profound for both the UK and the US. How can the Americans have a surge of troops to secure the population and promise success when the coalition cannot measure the level of security to within a factor of 10? How can the US and Britain pretend they understand the level of resentment in Iraq if they are not sure if, on average, one in 80 families have lost a household member, or one in seven, as our study suggests?

If these two countries have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide, and have actively worked to mask this fact, how will they credibly be able to criticise Sudan or Zimbabwe or the next government that kills thousands of its own people?

For longer than the US has been a nation, Britain has pushed us at our worst of moments to do the right thing. That time has come again with regard to Iraq. It is wrong to be the junior partner in an endeavour rigged to deny the next death induced, and to have spokespeople effectively respond to that death with disinterest and denial.

Our nations' leaders are collectively expressing belligerence at a time when the populace knows they should be expressing contrition. If that cannot be corrected, Britain should end its role in this deteriorating misadventure. It is unlikely that any historians will record the occupation of Iraq in a favourable light. Britain followed the Americans into this débâcle. Wouldn't it be better to let history record that Britain led them out?

The writer is an Associate Professor at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article2268067.ece

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#178. To: tom007, ALL (#158)

As for photos, the US media is one of the most censored around.

There aren't photos or video of this supposed slaughter even in the foreign media. And Dahr Jamail is no friend of the US and not been censured. Nor has his access to insurgents been impeded. Plus, we know the insurgents are videotaping almost every IED attack they attempt. So why haven't they taken their cameras and recorded this supposed slaughter? I'm sure al-jazerra would be happy to broadcast them.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:15:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: ... (#171)

Well, I did a search on it's posts over at El Pee, and it's last post was around February 6th. Before that it was posting every day, all day.

I think it got kicked off of El Pee (although judging from it's posts here, I'd say not for the patriotic reason some of us are in exile, voluntary or involuntary, that is our lack of support for wordwide Zionazism), and it has probably been feeling lonely.

So it came over here to pick the same fights it picked over there.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   13:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: RickyJ, ALL (#160)

The official totals say aprox. 50,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the start of the war.

Actually, the OFFICIAL totals do not say 50,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS have been killed.

Also, many of the sources saying the number is much closer to 50,000 than 655,000 are not OFFICIAL. Surely you don't consider IBC to be part of the government.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:18:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Diana, ALL (#161)

not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes,

Prove that claim was made by anyone in the US administration. I bet you can't.

Are you serious?

Yes, I'm serious. Prove that US officials claimed Iraq could launch missiles to the US.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:20:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Diana, ALL (#164)

First of all, you haven't proven the 50,000 were innocent civilians.

Diana, that statement doesn't preclude the possibility that 10,000 were innocent civilians. Yet you accused me of claiming I didn't think ANY of those killed were innocent civilians.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: BeAChooser (#181)

If you look upthread you will see where I posted Tony Blair's 45 minute claim and it's refutation in the Guardian Unlimited UK. You will also see a link posted by someone else to a video of "someone in the administration" who you might recognize making the same bullshit claim.

Your bluff's been called. Take your lumps like a man, for Chrissakes.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   13:23:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: bluedogtxn (#179)

He could be banned. Goldi's purging the kooks and laughing stocks again. Notice who we got as a result.

.

...  posted on  2007-02-16   13:25:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: scrapper2, ALL (#165)

Would you like to take a stab at disputing the facts I listed in post #123?

The "facts" you posted in message #123 have all been discredited one way or another in the course of the past 4 years and most recently by the following gov't investigative report released on 09/08/06. It's 151 pages long and you can do word searches relating to your so called "facts" re: Syria and sarvin and nukes to your heart's content - in fact, knock yourself out why don't you -

What's really funny is that you only proved you didn't even read post 123, because post 123 says nothing about Syria, sarin or nukes.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:28:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: bluedogtxn, Diana, ALL (#168)

Here's one where our pet poodle said it...

Too bad it doesn't say anything about launching missiles to the US in 45 minutes ... because that is what was claimed.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: ..., ALL (#172)

I just did a search on your posts. I have been unable to find a single instance where you have done anything except try to destroy this forum.

All I've done is post indisputable sourced facts. How can that destroy your forum? Afterall, your forum is about exposing the truth. Right?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: ... (#184)

no such luck butt boy

It Is A Republic  posted on  2007-02-16   13:34:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: Diana, ALL (#175)

Freedumb4um?

I haven't said that since joining FD4UM. I've been nothing but respectful.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:34:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: BeAChooser (#187)

Afterall, your forum is about exposing the truth. Right?

the truth as they see it............ there is little reason to argue with anyone who has their minds made up ........... I see very little posted here to make one think ......... this forum is as far the one way as FR is the other ........ just more attacks when they disagree and a moderator that does not ban as easily as other forums .....

It Is A Republic  posted on  2007-02-16   13:38:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: scrapper2, ALL (#177)

Here's a link to a video wherein our own Dear Leader repeats that 45 minute lie.

And what exactly does he say in that video? A quote please.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:39:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: ... (#184)

He could be banned. Goldi's purging the kooks and laughing stocks again. Notice who we got as a result

Yeah, but it is fun to kick it around. Livens up the place having a real, genuine Bushbot to expose for the lying skunk it is.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   13:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: bluedogtxn, Diana, ALL (#183)

If you look upthread you will see where I posted Tony Blair's 45 minute claim

He didn't say anything about launching a missile to the US. That was Diana's claim.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: BeAChooser (#189)

I haven't said that since joining FD4UM. I've been nothing but respectful.

That is true, you haven't said that here.

When I look at that D though...

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   13:42:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: BeAChooser, bluedogtxn (#193)

He didn't say anything about launching a missile to the US. That was Diana's claim.

I said that it was said by someone right before the war, and then you said something like you bet I couldn't prove anyone in the US administration said it.

Then bluedogtxn brought up it was Tony Blair who said it, you were being a trickster!

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   13:44:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2 (#191)

And what exactly does he say in that video? A quote please.

Are you kidding me? Are you too lazy to watch it or are you just being ornery?

Watch it yourself. You have to fast forward through the introduction, where about twenty-five intelligence experts give their bonafides before tearing your dear leader a new asshole for the next hour and a half. Because it not only demonstrates that der Fuhrer made the bullshit claim about "an attack within 45 minutes (insert the usual dumbass kooky pause) of when the order was given," but it also shows all the other kooky bullshit crap that you've swallowed like mother's milk for the past 3 years.

I really think you should watch it. It would be educational for you. It probably won't hurt your eyes, although the shattering of about a thousand illusions you hold dear may put you into a coma.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   13:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Diana, ALL (#194)

When I look at that D though...

Oh, is that the first thing that comes to your mind? ;)

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:51:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: BeAChooser (#193)

He didn't say anything about launching a missile ...

Oh, you clever little reichwingnutjob! You got me. In a speech where he's talking about Saddam's ballistic missiles and weapons program he only says Saddam could "order an attack on American soil" that would "occur" in "45 minutes from when the order was given"... Der Fuhrer doesn't actually say that the attack would be by a missile. That's just implied, hinted at, subliminally suggested and made obvious that's what he is saying; but you are correct. It was not explicitly said.

You should have been with Bill Clinton defending him from the Monica Lewinski deal, the way you parse words.

That bullshit may fly when you're talking about a blow job, but if you think that shit will fly here when we're talking about American boys being killed every day, you've landed in the wrong place.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   13:52:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Diana, ALL (#195)

I said that it was said by someone right before the war,

This is what you said:

"Before the invasion the Bush administration wanted to falsify the number of people who died as a result of Saddam, going so far as to include long-dead Iranian soldiers from the Iraq/Iran war of the 80s found in mass graves, claming they were actually innocent Iraqi civilians recently killed by Saddam. They were that desperate to jack up the numbers of dead by Saddam, not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes, the non-existent WMD along with all the other lies."

Sorry Diana, but you clearly implied that the administration said Iraq had the capability of launching missiles TO THE US in 45 minutes. So I was perfectly justified in asking you to prove that someone in the administration said that. Now if you wish to retract the claim. Fine. Then we can move on.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:56:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: bluedogtxn, ALL (#198)

And what exactly does he say in that video? A quote please.

Are you kidding me? Are you too lazy to watch it or are you just being ornery?

Can't you quote what the video actually says and save everyone a lot of time?

Because it not only demonstrates that der Fuhrer made the bullshit claim about "an attack within 45 minutes (insert the usual dumbass kooky pause) of when the order was given,"

Does it mention missiles or that these missiles will travel from Iraq to the US?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:58:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: bluedogtxn, Diana, ALL (#198)

Oh, you clever little reichwingnutjob! You got me. In a speech where he's talking about Saddam's ballistic missiles and weapons program he only says Saddam could "order an attack on American soil" that would "occur" in "45 minutes from when the order was given"

Ahhh ... I see you finally found the truth.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   14:00:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: It Is A Republic (#190)

there is little reason to argue with anyone who has their minds made up

Anytime you want to pitch in, feel free. You wanna lurk until you find a sympathetic 'bot with a shoulder to cry on, and then post, that's your privilege. But nobody's keeping you from posting each and every day.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:01:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: BeAChooser (#200)

Does it mention missiles or that these missiles will travel from Iraq to the US?

It mentions ballistic missiles. It mentions "fisssssile matcherials". It mentions British Inchelligence. It mentions "an attack on Amurikin soil in 45 minutes of when the oerder was givin". Ya see, sometimes in this bisiniss ya gotta say things over and over agin. Kinda catapult the propaganda, heh.

See, then you have Condaleeza talk about a "mushroom cloud".

Heh heh.

Watch the video, tool.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:05:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: BeAChooser, Diana, leveller, aristeides, scrapper2, all (#201)

Ahhh ... I see you finally found the truth.

No. I found the shallow hole where you are trying to hide a huge, tragic, and fatal lie.

The "truth" does not reside in your clever loopholes. The truth resides in the obvious message intended, as well as the message delivered. Your leader is a liar, and you are still in his thrall.

You think we have "group think" here? What we have is a consensus after having looked at article after article, speech after speech, intelligence experts, one after another, without the distracting bullshit of the Domers and the Badeyes and the BeAChoosers who are simply partisans. Even the partisans here are open to having their minds changed.

You come in here, an obvious shill, after having apparently been banned by Goldi (who basically only bans people if they are NUTS or won't toe the line in regard to Greater Zion), and prove yourself a shill and a nut in post after post.

What did you expect, that you'd be greeted as a "liberator" with flowers?

Hell, maybe in your neocon soul you did.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:12:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: Diana (#195)

Then bluedogtxn brought up it was Tony Blair who said it, you were being a trickster!

Bush said it, too.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:18:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: BeAChooser, Diana (#199)

Now if you wish to retract the claim. Fine. Then we can move on.

Diana, if you retract that claim, I'll find you and horsewhip you. There was nothing false about your claim. Bush said it, it's on tape, in front of the whole goddamn world.

This thing is just too lazy to go and look for itself.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: christine (#115)

hi. welcome to 4. is that Hayek as in Selma? ;)

Hello. Thank you for the welcome. I was actually thinking about Friedrich Hayek, but now that you mention it, I am MOST definitly a Selma Hayek fan as well. You know, the ol' "I'd crawl though glass" thingee.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-02-16   14:22:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: ... (#117)

Excuse me. I only answered your first paragraph in my post above. You seem be well up on chooser's Rob Brown kookery.

No problema

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-02-16   14:26:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Diana (#161)

Has it been wiped from the media records or something?

Not yet:

"The danger to our country is grave. The danger to our country is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons. The Iraqi regime is building the facilities necessary to make more biological and chemical weapons. And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order were given."

George W. Bush, September 26, 2002, Remarks by the President on Iraq, in The Rose Garden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020926-7.html

leveller  posted on  2007-02-16   14:33:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: BeAChooser (#200)

beachy, i haven't been on the web that long. have you always been a kook or did you get dropped on your head at some point ... or something like that?

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   14:43:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: BeAChooser (#201)

you seem to be on the web pretty much 24/7.

are you one of those nuts on disability?

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   14:57:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: Morgana le Fay (#211)

I think it ran away.

Too bad. It was making things fun.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:59:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#189)

I've been nothing but respectful.

If you have no respect for the truth; the rest is an incredibly insincere act.

No surprise, coming from you, BAC.

Not a lot of fun, without the security of Goldi's apron strings, is it?

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:13:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#197)

Back to picking on the women, I see.

BAC, you have no shame!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: bluedogtxn, BeAChooser (#206)

This thing is just too lazy to go and look for itself.

Is this what it should be looking for?

"The danger to our country is grave. The danger to our country is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons. The Iraqi regime is building the facilities necessary to make more biological and chemical weapons. And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order were given."

George W. Bush, September 26, 2002, Remarks by the President on Iraq, in The Rose Garden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020926-7.html

leveller  posted on  2007-02-16   15:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: BeAChooser (#123) (Edited)

Here are some more articles pointing out problems with the study that I know you won't bother to even read:

You are right in that I won't bother to read them. If the information is/was incorrect, then scholars would have taken the report to task piece by piece in other peer reviewed journals, if not the Lancet itself in its next publication. Why didn't JAMA protest the report? I mean if it was such an obvious anti-war hit piece, surly JAMA would have stepped in. If for no other reason than to make a rival publication look bad. Yet they didn't. Are they liberal anti-war American haters as well? Why hasn't any other peer reviewed publication taken the report to task? And they haven't. You know how I know? Because if they had, then you would have posted those publications and wouldn't be forced to post links to the rags you did.

Why in heaven's name should I care what Slate, The Economist or the Weekly Standard say or believe about anything? They have no expertise in the matter. If true experts had problems with the report, they would have made their objections known in the proper circles and the proper professional publications. You can't masquerade a political hit piece as a research paper. There are to many other professionals with other political leanings who would not allow it. Then there are those with no political leanings at all but who take their jobs seriously and wouldn't allow their field to be abused in such a way. Every research paper has a section that lists the exact methodology used to obtain the information. If the methods they used were unsound, then it would have been pointed out by other scholars in that field. Someone (or many) people would have used the report's notoriety to create their own research papers to rebut the original report in order to correct the record and/or make names for themselves within their field(s). This is how it is done. It is preposterous, in my opinion, to think that a group of professionals would risk their credibilty (i.e. livelihood) in order to make up an anti-war hit piece. They would never be taken seriously again in their fields of expertise.

And who the heck are the chicagoboyz and why would I give a hoot about what they have to say about anything? The same goes for Frank Warner or Pappillonartsplace. I mean come on BAC, get real. At least Slate, The Economist and Weekly Standard are known publications. These other people could be hair stylists, political hacks or child molesters as far as I know.

But unlike others, I have no desire to go back and forth with you over the matter. If you want to believe that the report is a big conspiracy to make Bush look bad, then by all means, you go right ahead. I'm not required to agree with you nor you with me.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-02-16   15:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: BeAChooser (#201)

do you use this for your long stream of consiousness posts?

BeAChooser Reference Database

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   15:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: leveller (#215) (Edited)

Is this what it should be looking for?

Yep. That lil' gem is preceded by a bunch of talk about ballistic missiles and followed by a bit of Kindasleeza's pimping the "mushroom cloud" theory of pre- emptive war.

But I think BAC has taken the few marbles it has left and gone home.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:23:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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