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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Iraq's death toll is far worse than our leaders admit
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/118356
Published: Feb 14, 2007
Author: Les Roberts
Post Date: 2007-02-14 09:58:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 36423
Comments: 457

The US and Britain have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide

14 February 2007

On both sides of the Atlantic, a process of spinning science is preventing a serious discussion about the state of affairs in Iraq.

The government in Iraq claimed last month that since the 2003 invasion between 40,000 and 50,000 violent deaths have occurred. Few have pointed out the absurdity of this statement.

There are three ways we know it is a gross underestimate. First, if it were true, including suicides, South Africa, Colombia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia have experienced higher violent death rates than Iraq over the past four years. If true, many North and South American cities and Sub-Saharan Africa have had a similar murder rate to that claimed in Iraq. For those of us who have been in Iraq, the suggestion that New Orleans is more violent seems simply ridiculous.

Secondly, there have to be at least 120,000 and probably 140,000 deaths per year from natural causes in a country with the population of Iraq. The numerous stories we hear about overflowing morgues, the need for new cemeteries and new body collection brigades are not consistent with a 10 per cent rise in death rate above the baseline.

And finally, there was a study, peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal, which put the death toll at 650,000 as of last July. The study, which I co-authored, was done by the standard cluster approach used by the UN to estimate mortality in dozens of countries each year. While the findings are imprecise, the lower range of possibilities suggested that the Iraq government was at least downplaying the number of dead by a factor of 10.

There are several reasons why the governments involved in this conflict have been able to confuse the issue of Iraqi deaths. Our Lancet report involved sampling and statistical analysis, which is rather dry reading. Media reports always miss most deaths in times of war, so the estimate by the media-based monitoring system, http://Iraqbodycount.org (IBC) roughly corresponds with the Iraq government's figures. Repeated evaluations of deaths identified from sources independent of the press and the Ministry of Health show the IBC listing to be less than 10 per cent complete, but because it matches the reports of the governments involved, it is easily referenced.

Several other estimates have placed the death toll far higher than the Iraqi government estimates, but those have received less press attention. When in 2005, a UN survey reported that 90 per cent of violent attacks in Scotland were not recorded by the police, no one, not even the police, disputed this finding. Representative surveys are the next best thing to a census for counting deaths, and nowhere but Iraq have partial tallies from morgues and hospitals been given such credence when representative survey results are available.

The Pentagon will not release information about deaths induced or amounts of weaponry used in Iraq. On 9 January of this year, the embedded Fox News reporter Brit Hume went along for an air attack, and we learned that at least 25 targets were bombed that day with almost no reports of the damage appearing in the press.

Saddam Hussein's surveillance network, which only captured one third of all deaths before the invasion, has certainly deteriorated even further. During last July, there were numerous televised clashes in Anbar, yet the system recorded exactly zero violent deaths from the province. The last Minister of Health to honestly assess the surveillance network, Dr Ala'din Alwan, admitted that it was not reporting from most of the country by August 2004. He was sacked months later after, among other things, reports appeared based on the limited government data suggesting that most violent deaths were associated with coalition forces.

The consequences of downplaying the number of deaths in Iraq are profound for both the UK and the US. How can the Americans have a surge of troops to secure the population and promise success when the coalition cannot measure the level of security to within a factor of 10? How can the US and Britain pretend they understand the level of resentment in Iraq if they are not sure if, on average, one in 80 families have lost a household member, or one in seven, as our study suggests?

If these two countries have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide, and have actively worked to mask this fact, how will they credibly be able to criticise Sudan or Zimbabwe or the next government that kills thousands of its own people?

For longer than the US has been a nation, Britain has pushed us at our worst of moments to do the right thing. That time has come again with regard to Iraq. It is wrong to be the junior partner in an endeavour rigged to deny the next death induced, and to have spokespeople effectively respond to that death with disinterest and denial.

Our nations' leaders are collectively expressing belligerence at a time when the populace knows they should be expressing contrition. If that cannot be corrected, Britain should end its role in this deteriorating misadventure. It is unlikely that any historians will record the occupation of Iraq in a favourable light. Britain followed the Americans into this débâcle. Wouldn't it be better to let history record that Britain led them out?

The writer is an Associate Professor at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article2268067.ece

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#208. To: ... (#117)

Excuse me. I only answered your first paragraph in my post above. You seem be well up on chooser's Rob Brown kookery.

No problema

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-02-16   14:26:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Diana (#161)

Has it been wiped from the media records or something?

Not yet:

"The danger to our country is grave. The danger to our country is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons. The Iraqi regime is building the facilities necessary to make more biological and chemical weapons. And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order were given."

George W. Bush, September 26, 2002, Remarks by the President on Iraq, in The Rose Garden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020926-7.html

leveller  posted on  2007-02-16   14:33:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: BeAChooser (#200)

beachy, i haven't been on the web that long. have you always been a kook or did you get dropped on your head at some point ... or something like that?

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   14:43:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: BeAChooser (#201)

you seem to be on the web pretty much 24/7.

are you one of those nuts on disability?

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   14:57:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: Morgana le Fay (#211)

I think it ran away.

Too bad. It was making things fun.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   14:59:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#189)

I've been nothing but respectful.

If you have no respect for the truth; the rest is an incredibly insincere act.

No surprise, coming from you, BAC.

Not a lot of fun, without the security of Goldi's apron strings, is it?

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:13:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#197)

Back to picking on the women, I see.

BAC, you have no shame!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: bluedogtxn, BeAChooser (#206)

This thing is just too lazy to go and look for itself.

Is this what it should be looking for?

"The danger to our country is grave. The danger to our country is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons. The Iraqi regime is building the facilities necessary to make more biological and chemical weapons. And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order were given."

George W. Bush, September 26, 2002, Remarks by the President on Iraq, in The Rose Garden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020926-7.html

leveller  posted on  2007-02-16   15:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: BeAChooser (#123) (Edited)

Here are some more articles pointing out problems with the study that I know you won't bother to even read:

You are right in that I won't bother to read them. If the information is/was incorrect, then scholars would have taken the report to task piece by piece in other peer reviewed journals, if not the Lancet itself in its next publication. Why didn't JAMA protest the report? I mean if it was such an obvious anti-war hit piece, surly JAMA would have stepped in. If for no other reason than to make a rival publication look bad. Yet they didn't. Are they liberal anti-war American haters as well? Why hasn't any other peer reviewed publication taken the report to task? And they haven't. You know how I know? Because if they had, then you would have posted those publications and wouldn't be forced to post links to the rags you did.

Why in heaven's name should I care what Slate, The Economist or the Weekly Standard say or believe about anything? They have no expertise in the matter. If true experts had problems with the report, they would have made their objections known in the proper circles and the proper professional publications. You can't masquerade a political hit piece as a research paper. There are to many other professionals with other political leanings who would not allow it. Then there are those with no political leanings at all but who take their jobs seriously and wouldn't allow their field to be abused in such a way. Every research paper has a section that lists the exact methodology used to obtain the information. If the methods they used were unsound, then it would have been pointed out by other scholars in that field. Someone (or many) people would have used the report's notoriety to create their own research papers to rebut the original report in order to correct the record and/or make names for themselves within their field(s). This is how it is done. It is preposterous, in my opinion, to think that a group of professionals would risk their credibilty (i.e. livelihood) in order to make up an anti-war hit piece. They would never be taken seriously again in their fields of expertise.

And who the heck are the chicagoboyz and why would I give a hoot about what they have to say about anything? The same goes for Frank Warner or Pappillonartsplace. I mean come on BAC, get real. At least Slate, The Economist and Weekly Standard are known publications. These other people could be hair stylists, political hacks or child molesters as far as I know.

But unlike others, I have no desire to go back and forth with you over the matter. If you want to believe that the report is a big conspiracy to make Bush look bad, then by all means, you go right ahead. I'm not required to agree with you nor you with me.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-02-16   15:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: BeAChooser (#201)

do you use this for your long stream of consiousness posts?

BeAChooser Reference Database

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   15:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: leveller (#215) (Edited)

Is this what it should be looking for?

Yep. That lil' gem is preceded by a bunch of talk about ballistic missiles and followed by a bit of Kindasleeza's pimping the "mushroom cloud" theory of pre- emptive war.

But I think BAC has taken the few marbles it has left and gone home.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:23:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: BeAChooser (#123) (Edited)

Here are some more articles pointing out problems with the study that I know you won't bother to even read:

beachy, read the articles before you post them as sources.

you didn't do this.

do you want to know how i know? because they are not valid links.

you posted a link to an advertisement asking me to subscribe to the economist.

always read your sources before you try to bullshit people with them.

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   15:24:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: Morgana le Fay (#217)

do you use this for your long stream of consiousness posts?

Funny link.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:25:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: Morgana le Fay (#217)

BeAChooser Reference Database

lol

christine  posted on  2007-02-16   15:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: BeAChooser, bluedogtxn (#193) (Edited)

nevermind.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   15:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: bluedogtxn (#218)

BAC has taken the few marbles it has left and gone home.

He will return. He never gives up. Your tax dollars may be paying his way.

leveller  posted on  2007-02-16   15:31:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: bluedogtxn (#220)

did you notice that he did a google search and then cut and pasted the articles as sources without opening them and reading them? it is on my last post.

"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006

Morgana le Fay  posted on  2007-02-16   15:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: bluedogtxn, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Diana, All (#218)

BAC is quite skilled in the world of "Psyops" and "Coercive Persuasion." Make no mistake about it. His arguments typically fall in the shadow of, "It's not a dog; it's an animal!"

Sure, Tony made the claim; but when one gets behind such - to the tune of committing War Crimes - what's the difference?

BAC lies down with fleas & comes up with a dog. He does take a lot of getting used to. If he says it, depend on deceit being behind it. Without an ulterior motive, he wouldn't take out the trash. Just as he picks on Diana; he knows no nobility - NONE!



SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:33:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: leveller (#223)

BAC has taken the few marbles it has left and gone home.

There may be a probationary posting limit for newbys. I'm not sure on that one.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:34:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: leveller (#223)

(It) will return. (It) never gives up. Your tax dollars may be paying (its) way.

Honest, Lev. I liked having it around. Not like El Pee where there was half a dozen nuts under every tree, but one good nut that we can all kick around?

Shit, that was fun. Look how many posts it generated.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:34:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: Diana (#222)

nevermind.

Great work, kid. Don't get cocky.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:37:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: Morgana le Fay (#224)

did you notice that he did a google search and then cut and pasted the articles as sources without opening them and reading them? it is on my last post.

I noticed it after you pointed it out. There's no way I was going to backtrack its links to a bunch of wingnut bullshit, and it knew it.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:39:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: SKYDRIFTER (#225) (Edited)

Just as he picks on Diana; he knows no nobility - NONE!

Diana kicked its ass. Its picking on her was like Israel picking on Hezbollah.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#193)

He didn't say anything about launching a missile to the US.

Why BAC - that's not true; he quoted Tony!

To use your tactics; that makes you a LIAR!

(See how that works?)

Isn't it fun to eat your own shit, BAC?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: BeAChooser (#199)

"Before the invasion the Bush administration wanted to falsify the number of people who died as a result of Saddam, going so far as to include long-dead Iranian soldiers from the Iraq/Iran war of the 80s found in mass graves, claming they were actually innocent Iraqi civilians recently killed by Saddam. They were that desperate to jack up the numbers of dead by Saddam, not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes, the non-existent WMD along with all the other lies."

Sorry Diana, but you clearly implied that the administration said Iraq had the capability of launching missiles TO THE US in 45 minutes. So I was perfectly justified in asking you to prove that someone in the administration said that. Now if you wish to retract the claim. Fine. Then we can move on.

not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes, the non-existent WMD along with all the other lies."

******

that was added on, and I did not say specifically who said this as I didn't know. I just know it was said on FOX and other media outlets to scare the American public into thinking we were under an immidiate threat of being hit by Saddam's super missles which he didn't have.

However other posters have now given you proof that it was said and by whom.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   15:43:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: SKYDRIFTER, christine (#226)

There may be a probationary posting limit for newbys. I'm not sure on that one.

If BAC ran into a posting limit, you ought to lift the limit. It's been a while since we had a real neocon around here.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:43:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: bluedogtxn, Brian S, Christine, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Diana, All (#230)

Diana kicked its ass. Its picking on her was like Israel picking on Hezbollah.

'Ray, for Diana!

Alaskans rock! She routinely teaches me new tricks.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:43:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: Diana (#232)

Don't neglect Condaleeza's comment that she didn't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud. If that isn't jangling the nuclear fire bell, nothing is.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:46:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: BeAChooser, bluedogtxn, All (#201)

Oh, you clever little reichwingnutjob! You got me. In a speech where he's talking about Saddam's ballistic missiles and weapons program he only says Saddam could "order an attack on American soil" that would "occur" in "45 minutes from when the order was given"

Ahhh ... I see you finally found the truth.

So it sounds like Bush had a very clever writer like BeAChooser telling him what to say, and what words to use so as to be as vague as possible.

That is some kind of talent, not sure what to call it though. They use such people to sway public opinion by saying things that mean other things or can be interpreted in vague ways, it has something to do with being a trickster of some kind and spinning words so as to shape people's opinions without getting in too much trouble later.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   15:47:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: bluedogtxn (#233)

he's on full status. i'm thoroughly enjoying your posts to him. :P

christine  posted on  2007-02-16   15:47:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: bluedogtxn (#203)

It mentions ballistic missiles. It mentions "fisssssile matcherials". It mentions British Inchelligence. It mentions "an attack on Amurikin soil in 45 minutes of when the oerder was givin". Ya see, sometimes in this bisiniss ya gotta say things over and over agin. Kinda catapult the propaganda, heh.

See, then you have Condaleeza talk about a "mushroom cloud".

I was sure missles was said, that Saddam was going to shoot us with those missles that travel from Iraq to the US in 45 minutes.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   15:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: Diana, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Kamala, All (#236)

In all my experience with BAC - you can depend on his defeat being in the content of his own words - or lack thereof.

When BAC didn't respond to my early speculations on Flight 93 - I knew something major was there - that turned out to be another missing airliner, of course.

It's a hassle to pick BAC apart, but it can be done.

He only does deceit, with extremely rare exception.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   15:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: Diana (#236)

That is some kind of talent, not sure what to call it though.

I think the technically correct term is "obfuscation", although in my neck of the woods we call it "bullshitting".

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:52:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: bluedogtxn (#206)

Diana, if you retract that claim, I'll find you and horsewhip you. There was nothing false about your claim. Bush said it, it's on tape, in front of the whole goddamn world.

He was trying to play word tricks with me again, he was making my post mean something different, something he is expert at.

He wears a person out, I don't know how he can keep going, and going, but honestly I knew someone had said it, I just wasn't sure who the person was but I'm glad you found that video.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   15:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: Diana, aristeides, leveller, Burkeman1, all (#238)

I was sure missles was said, that Saddam was going to shoot us with those missles that travel from Iraq to the US in 45 minutes.

I don't know if it was ever explicitly stated (although I suspect it was, and I suspect some smart researcher could find it), but it was implied as all hell. That anyone can try to deny now that the administration was pimping the possibility of Saddam nuking us with missiles is such a palpable re-writing of history as to be absurd.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   15:59:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: BeAChooser, leveller, bluedogtxn (#209)

"The danger to our country is grave. The danger to our country is growing. The Iraqi regime possesses biological and chemical weapons. The Iraqi regime is building the facilities necessary to make more biological and chemical weapons. And according to the British government, the Iraqi regime could launch a biological or chemical attack in as little as 45 minutes after the order were given."

George W. Bush, September 26, 2002, Remarks by the President on Iraq, in The Rose Garden

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/09/20020926-7.html

HAAAAAAA!!

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

So now BeAChooser what do you say about having said no one in the US administration said this??

Oh wait, the word "missile" was not used, so are you going to say that this doesn't count?

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   16:00:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: Diana (#238)

I was sure missles was said, that Saddam was going to shoot us with those missles that travel from Iraq to the US in 45 minutes.

You did good! BAC requires a bit of a refresher course. I was surprised to see his misogynism show up, so quickly. That's not worth his time, anywhere!


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   16:02:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Diana, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Kamala, All (#241)

He wears a person out, I don't know how he can keep going, and going, ....

BAC uses a disinformation tactic cited by Hitler, "I defeated my [political] enemies by giving them work to do."

It's that simple. You're onto BAC; that's good.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-16   16:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: Diana, Scrapper2 (#241)

I just wasn't sure who the person was but I'm glad you found that video.

That was our very own Scrapper2, tearing it up.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   16:10:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: Diana (#243)

Oh wait, the word "missile" was not used, so are you going to say that this doesn't count?

That's exactly what it (BAC) said above. As if there were some other form of attack that Saddam could launch that would hit us in 45 minutes.

the law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal bread.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-02-16   16:11:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: bluedogtxn (#240)

That is some kind of talent, not sure what to call it though. I think the technically correct term is "obfuscation", although in my neck of the woods we call it "bullshitting".

LMBO

christine  posted on  2007-02-16   16:11:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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