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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Iraq's death toll is far worse than our leaders admit
Source: The Independent
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/118356
Published: Feb 14, 2007
Author: Les Roberts
Post Date: 2007-02-14 09:58:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 36612
Comments: 457

The US and Britain have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide

14 February 2007

On both sides of the Atlantic, a process of spinning science is preventing a serious discussion about the state of affairs in Iraq.

The government in Iraq claimed last month that since the 2003 invasion between 40,000 and 50,000 violent deaths have occurred. Few have pointed out the absurdity of this statement.

There are three ways we know it is a gross underestimate. First, if it were true, including suicides, South Africa, Colombia, Estonia, Kazakhstan, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia have experienced higher violent death rates than Iraq over the past four years. If true, many North and South American cities and Sub-Saharan Africa have had a similar murder rate to that claimed in Iraq. For those of us who have been in Iraq, the suggestion that New Orleans is more violent seems simply ridiculous.

Secondly, there have to be at least 120,000 and probably 140,000 deaths per year from natural causes in a country with the population of Iraq. The numerous stories we hear about overflowing morgues, the need for new cemeteries and new body collection brigades are not consistent with a 10 per cent rise in death rate above the baseline.

And finally, there was a study, peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal, which put the death toll at 650,000 as of last July. The study, which I co-authored, was done by the standard cluster approach used by the UN to estimate mortality in dozens of countries each year. While the findings are imprecise, the lower range of possibilities suggested that the Iraq government was at least downplaying the number of dead by a factor of 10.

There are several reasons why the governments involved in this conflict have been able to confuse the issue of Iraqi deaths. Our Lancet report involved sampling and statistical analysis, which is rather dry reading. Media reports always miss most deaths in times of war, so the estimate by the media-based monitoring system, http://Iraqbodycount.org (IBC) roughly corresponds with the Iraq government's figures. Repeated evaluations of deaths identified from sources independent of the press and the Ministry of Health show the IBC listing to be less than 10 per cent complete, but because it matches the reports of the governments involved, it is easily referenced.

Several other estimates have placed the death toll far higher than the Iraqi government estimates, but those have received less press attention. When in 2005, a UN survey reported that 90 per cent of violent attacks in Scotland were not recorded by the police, no one, not even the police, disputed this finding. Representative surveys are the next best thing to a census for counting deaths, and nowhere but Iraq have partial tallies from morgues and hospitals been given such credence when representative survey results are available.

The Pentagon will not release information about deaths induced or amounts of weaponry used in Iraq. On 9 January of this year, the embedded Fox News reporter Brit Hume went along for an air attack, and we learned that at least 25 targets were bombed that day with almost no reports of the damage appearing in the press.

Saddam Hussein's surveillance network, which only captured one third of all deaths before the invasion, has certainly deteriorated even further. During last July, there were numerous televised clashes in Anbar, yet the system recorded exactly zero violent deaths from the province. The last Minister of Health to honestly assess the surveillance network, Dr Ala'din Alwan, admitted that it was not reporting from most of the country by August 2004. He was sacked months later after, among other things, reports appeared based on the limited government data suggesting that most violent deaths were associated with coalition forces.

The consequences of downplaying the number of deaths in Iraq are profound for both the UK and the US. How can the Americans have a surge of troops to secure the population and promise success when the coalition cannot measure the level of security to within a factor of 10? How can the US and Britain pretend they understand the level of resentment in Iraq if they are not sure if, on average, one in 80 families have lost a household member, or one in seven, as our study suggests?

If these two countries have triggered an episode more deadly than the Rwandan genocide, and have actively worked to mask this fact, how will they credibly be able to criticise Sudan or Zimbabwe or the next government that kills thousands of its own people?

For longer than the US has been a nation, Britain has pushed us at our worst of moments to do the right thing. That time has come again with regard to Iraq. It is wrong to be the junior partner in an endeavour rigged to deny the next death induced, and to have spokespeople effectively respond to that death with disinterest and denial.

Our nations' leaders are collectively expressing belligerence at a time when the populace knows they should be expressing contrition. If that cannot be corrected, Britain should end its role in this deteriorating misadventure. It is unlikely that any historians will record the occupation of Iraq in a favourable light. Britain followed the Americans into this débâcle. Wouldn't it be better to let history record that Britain led them out?

The writer is an Associate Professor at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health

http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article2268067.ece

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 306.

#3. To: leveller, ALL (#0)

Let's bring a little rationality to a new topic here at FD4UM.

And finally, there was a study, peer-reviewed and published in The Lancet, Europe's most prestigious medical journal, which put the death toll at 650,000 as of last July. The study, which I co-authored, was done by the standard cluster approach used by the UN to estimate mortality in dozens of countries each year. While the findings are imprecise, the lower range of possibilities suggested that the Iraq government was at least downplaying the number of dead by a factor of 10.

This isn't the first report on Iraqi deaths by Les Roberts of John Hopkins to be published by the Lancet. The first one (in which Les was the lead author) claimed 100,000 excess deaths occurred in the first 18 months after the invasion began. This study was *peer reviewed* by the Lancet ... who editors apparently didn't read the report since they proceeded to advertise the first study as saying 100,000 CIVILIANS died during that time, when the study didn't say that at all. But their saying this led thousands of conspiracists and numerous leftist media reporters to claim 100,000 civilians had been murdered by Bush and the evil United States.

In interviews that Les Roberts gave on that first report, he allowed the 100,000 civilian deaths perception to stand uncontested. For example,here (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/14/154251#transcript) is an interview he did with DemocracyNow, a far left media outlet (curious how he could never find time for an interview on a conservative outlet). In it, the interviewer (Gonzalez) says to Roberts "Last year, the prominent British medical journal, Lancet, published a study estimating that over 100,000 Iraqi civilians had died because of the war. The study determined that the risk of death by violence for civilians in Iraq is now 58 times higher than before the U.S. invasion. We are joined in Washington by the lead researcher of that report, Dr. Les Roberts, who is an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.". Les Roberts response didn't correct the misinformation about the study in Gonzalez's statement. He let the assertion that the study concluded a 100,000 civilians died stand. I think he did that because Les Roberts is DISHONEST and has an anti-Bush/anti-war agenda. He has from day one, as you will see.

His dishonesty in the above interview continued when discussing the methodology he used. For example, he said, regarding the interviews with Iraqis on which the study was based, "And at the end of the interview, if they had reported someone dead, on a sub-sample, we asked, can you show us the death certificate? And about 82% of the time, they could do that. And we found that the death rate after the invasion was far, far higher than before." He doesn't mention that only in 2 out of 30 homes claiming deaths did they even ask for a death certificate. Nor does he tell his listeners the reason stated in the report why they didn't ask (fear that they would be hurt by those they asked).

And reading that transcript, you will notice that he doesn' t mention the fact that such organizations as WHO and the UN (hardly Bush advocate's) published pre-war mortality rates (a VERY important number in arriving at the estimated number of excess deaths) that were significantly different from what his study found. In fact, his report neither noted or attempted to explain why it's pre-war mortality estimate was so markedly different. The John Hopkin's researchers in the first report said 5 per 1000 per year. Well it turns out that the UN and WHO, in very large studies conducted before the invasion, said 7-8 per 1000 per year. By the way, the Lancet had previously blessed those WHO and UN estimates as correct ... perhaps because at the time doing THAT was hurt the US governments image.

Now there are many more criticisms one can make about that first report. But let's move on to the second report ... the one claiming 655,000 excess deaths. That one has all the defects mentions above plus others.

For example, the second report claims that 92% of those interviewed in their study who claimed deaths in their families (of any kind) since the beginning of the war were able to provide death certificates to prove it when asked. So if the John Hopkin's study methodology is statistically valid, one would expect death certificates from about 92% of 655,000 deaths should be available if someone goes looking for them. That is over 600,000 death certificates. Of the total number of deaths claimed, the John Hopkins report said "601,027 were due to violent causes. Non-violent deaths rose above the pre-invasion level only in 2006." So according to John Hopkin's, most of the death certificates should relate to violent causes.

Now as far as I know, death certificates in Iraq are only issued by the hospitals and morgues. This is what the LATimes (not a friend of Bush or the war) seemed to indicate in June of 2006 when they reported (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-deathtoll25jun25,0,4970736.story?coll=la-home-headlines) that they made a comprehensive search for death certificates throughout Iraq. And you know what they found? Less than 50,000.

Here's what they reported. "The Times attempted to reach a comprehensive figure by obtaining statistics from the Baghdad morgue and the Health Ministry and checking those numbers against a sampling of local health departments for possible undercounts." The article went on to say "the Health Ministry gathers numbers from hospitals in the capital and the outlying provinces. If a victim of violence dies at a hospital or arrives dead, medical officials issue a death certificate. Relatives claim the body directly from the hospital and arrange for a speedy burial in keeping with Muslim beliefs. If the morgue receives a body — usually those deemed suspicious deaths — officials there issue the death certificate. Health Ministry officials said that because death certificates are issued and counted separately, the two data sets are not overlapping. The Baghdad morgue received 30,204 bodies from 2003 through mid-2006, while the Health Ministry said it had documented 18,933 deaths from "military clashes" and "terrorist attacks" from April 5, 2004, to June 1, 2006. Together, the toll reaches 49,137."

So here's the question. Where are the missing death certificates? About 500,000, if one subtracts out the non-violent deaths. For that matter, where are the missing bodies? Where is ANY hard proof (photographic, video, eyewitness reports by journalists, ANYTHING) to prove over 600,000 people have died from violent causes as claimed?

I'll tell you. Such proof doesn't exist because the John Hopkin's studies are BOGUS. It's the result of a group of researchers (some of whom have admitted they disliked Bush and the War) who hired people in Iraq (who they described as HATING Americans) to gather the data.

I think this reviewer of Robert's study (From http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/006694.php) summed it up best: "In contrast to the amiable persona Roberts projected to his sympathetic Chronicle interviewer, Roberts comes across here as committed to exposing the American government's moral culpability in invading Iraq. More than that, Roberts' contention that Americans are passionately hated by the Iraqis he met and worked with ought to raise a red flag. It was those same Iraqis, acting as interviewers and team managers, who recorded and conveyed the surveyed families' impressions of the identities of those who killed their close relatives."

The results are tainted because they were reviewed and published in a journal that not only lied about the first study (claiming it showed 100,000 CIVILIANS died in the first 18 months of the war) but whose editors admit they fast tracked the peer review process so that it could be published before an election and negatively affect the outcome against Bush and the GOP. The methodology was tainted by expecting the sunnis who bore the brunt of the invasion and who hate Americans (because we freed the rest of Iraq from their tyranny) to tell the truth about casualties. And the study is still being tainted by proponents who willfully hide all these facts every time they cite the numbers in order to promote their agenda.

In summary, I'd be very cautious about citing Les Roberts or the Lancet results to prove anything. You might end up only embarrassing yourself.

How the Lancet Cooked the Numbers

Exaggeration won't save Iraqis: The new claims about the civilian death toll in Iraq are vastly overstated"

Another bogus body count from those who brought us the last bogus body count!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-14   21:06:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: BeAChooser, ALL (#3)

Where are the missing death certificates? About 500,000, if one subtracts out the non-violent deaths. For that matter, where are the missing bodies? Where is ANY hard proof (photographic, video, eyewitness reports by journalists, ANYTHING) to prove over 600,000 people have died from violent causes as claimed?

You have made me feel so much better. You have performed a public service, for which every American should feel grateful. The burden of 650G innocent Iraqi deaths has been lifted from our shoulders, to be replaced with the burden of only 50G or 60G innocent civilian deaths. It no longer matters that Bush launched an elective war of aggression, in the absence of any imminent critical threat to our national security. It no longer matters that Iraq had never attacked us and was not about to do so. It no longer matters that W's henchmen cooked the NIE to justify an illegal war. None of that metters, because 50G deaths don't count.

leveller  posted on  2007-02-15   12:00:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: leveller, all (#4)

You have made me feel so much better. You have performed a public service, for which every American should feel grateful. The burden of 650G innocent Iraqi deaths has been lifted from our shoulders, to be replaced with the burden of only 50G or 60G innocent civilian deaths. It no longer matters that Bush launched an elective war of aggression, in the absence of any imminent critical threat to our national security. It no longer matters that Iraq had never attacked us and was not about to do so. It no longer matters that W's henchmen cooked the NIE to justify an illegal war. None of that metters, because 50G deaths don't count.

First of all, you haven't proven the 50,000 were innocent civilians.

Second, would you be as upset if only 10 "innocent" deaths had resulted from toppling Saddam and making sure Iraq couldn't be used with as a terrorists safe haven? At what number would you draw the line between doing that being a good thing versus a bad thing?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-15   14:00:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: BeAChooser, leveller (#8)

First of all, you haven't proven the 50,000 were innocent civilians.

Before the invasion the Bush administration wanted to falsify the number of people who died as a result of Saddam, going so far as to include long-dead Iranian soldiers from the Iraq/Iran war of the 80s found in mass graves, claming they were actually innocent Iraqi civilians recently killed by Saddam. They were that desperate to jack up the numbers of dead by Saddam, not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes, the non-existent WMD along with all the other lies.

How ironic that now a few years into this "war", you are playing down the number of dead in Iraq, and you appear to be implying that the "few" who really have died since the US invaded may not be innocent. What a joke. No one is going to buy this one, no one.

Diana  posted on  2007-02-16   10:38:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Diana, ALL (#119)

Before the invasion the Bush administration wanted to falsify the number of people who died as a result of Saddam, going so far as to include long-dead Iranian soldiers from the Iraq/Iran war of the 80s found in mass graves, claming they were actually innocent Iraqi civilians recently killed by Saddam.

Prove this, Diana.

And by the way, are you familiar with the Black Book Of Saddam?

not to mention the nonsense that Iraq had the capability to launch missles to the US in 45 minutes,

Prove that claim was made by anyone in the US administration. I bet you can't.

the non-existent WMD

Care to explain to us where that binary sarin warhead that turned up as an IED came from? Is the ISG lying when they state they have a credible witness who said WMD related items were moved to Syria before the invasion? Can you explain to us why Saddam's regime went to so much trouble to sanitize files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD if there were no WMD or WMD programs?

How ironic that now a few years into this "war", you are playing down the number of dead in Iraq,

No, I'm disputing a SPECIFIC number. One that is so ridiculous that I'm surprised you'd be taken in by it.

and you appear to be implying that the "few" who really have died since the US invaded may not be innocent.

Don't mischaracterize what I've said. I neither said or implied that. Do you have to resort to mischaracterizing my statements to win this debate? Why don't you, instead, try to challenge the specific facts I listed in post #123.

What a joke. No one is going to buy this one, no one.

The joke will be on you folks if you don't even attempt to dispute the facts I listed in post #123.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   11:13:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: BeAChooser (#129)

The joke will be on you folks if you don't even attempt to dispute the facts I listed in post #123.

ROTFLOL! your delusion is hilarious.

christine  posted on  2007-02-16   11:21:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: christine, ALL (#134)

ROTFLOL! your delusion is hilarious.

lol. Do you really think I'm helping the credibility of your other FD4UM posters?

Would you like to take a stab at disputing the facts I listed in post #123?

No? Why is that, Christine?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   11:36:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: BeAChooser, christine, robin, leveller, Burkeman1, Brian S, Diana, ..., bluedogtxn (#144)

Would you like to take a stab at disputing the facts I listed in post #123?

The "facts" you posted in message #123 have all been discredited one way or another in the course of the past 4 years and most recently by the following gov't investigative report released on 09/08/06.

It's 151 pages long and you can do word searches relating to your so called "facts" re: Syria and sarvin and nukes to your heart's content - in fact, knock yourself out why don't you - currently you are embaressing yourself by posting screed/propaganda from sites like National Review - I feel sorry for you - well, almost. Please do all of us and mostly importantly yourself a favor by updating your files with relevant new information that has come up since you fell into your Bot coma in 2003.

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_rpt/srpt109-331.pdf

"Report of the Select Committee on Intelligence on Postwar Findings About Iraq's WMD Programs and Links to Terrorism and They Compare to Prewar Assessments together with Additional Views"

scrapper2  posted on  2007-02-16   12:19:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: scrapper2, ALL (#165)

Would you like to take a stab at disputing the facts I listed in post #123?

The "facts" you posted in message #123 have all been discredited one way or another in the course of the past 4 years and most recently by the following gov't investigative report released on 09/08/06. It's 151 pages long and you can do word searches relating to your so called "facts" re: Syria and sarvin and nukes to your heart's content - in fact, knock yourself out why don't you -

What's really funny is that you only proved you didn't even read post 123, because post 123 says nothing about Syria, sarin or nukes.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-16   13:28:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: BeAChooser, Diana, bluedogtxn, leveller, robin, christine, Brian S., Burkeman1, SKYDRIFTER (#185)

a. Here's my response to your post #123. And if you don't like what you read from this 10/11/06 updated report from Johns Hopkins U, then take up your complaints with the authors directly. I am sure they would love to hear from you, BAC, along with your high browed "support" from Weekly Standard etc.

This is the last time I'm fiddling with your ghastly attempts to down grade Iraq's civilian losses due to our invasion and occupation a nation which posed absolutely zero threat to our national security. You should be ashamed of yourself for trivializing the Iraqi losses that are a direct result of our aggression on their sovereign nation.

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2 006.html

"Updated Iraq Survey Affirms Earlier Mortality Estimates: Mortality Trends Comparable to Estimates by Those Using Other Counting Methods" October 11, 2006

Some cut and paste of key findings:

- The mortality survey used well-established and scientifically proven methods for measuring mortality and disease in populations. These same survey methods were used to measure mortality during conflicts in the Congo, Kosovo, Sudan and other regions.

- The results from the new study closely match the finding of the group’s October 2004 mortality survey.

- According to the researchers, the overall rate of mortality in Iraq since March 2003 is 13.3 deaths per 1,000 persons per year compared to 5.5 deaths per 1,000 persons per year prior to March 2003.

- This amounts to about 2.5 percent of Iraqi’s population having died as a consequence of the war.

b. And here's a response by one of the John Hopkins researchers to the WSJ opinion piece that questioned the findings. It appears that Les Roberts had comments falsely attributed to him. Hmmm....

http://www.j hsph.edu/refugee/research/iraq/wsj_response.html

Response to the Wall Street Journal's "655,000 War Dead?"

October 20, 2006

Dear Friends:

I submitted a letter to the editors of the Wall Street Journal on October 18 regarding an opinion article by Steven E. Moore (“655,000 War Dead?,” October 18, 2006). Les Roberts submitted his own letter to address some of the statements inaccurately attributed to him by Mr. Moore in his article. We hope the paper will publish both responses shortly.

Mr. Moore did not question our methodology, but rather the number of clusters we used to develop a representative sample. Our study used 47 randomly selected clusters of 40 households each. In his critique, Mr. Moore did not note that our survey sample included 12,801 people living in 47 clusters, which is the equivalent to a survey of 3,700 randomly selected individuals. As a comparison, a 3,700-person survey is nearly 3 times larger than the average U.S. political survey that reports a margin of error of +/-3%.

Our study also produced a range of plausible values that reflect the margin of error in our estimate. These values are included in our study, which was published Oct. 11, 2006, in the peer-reviewed, scientific journal, The Lancet. Using our 47 clusters, we estimated that 655,000 excess deaths have occurred in Iraq since March 2003 within a range of plausible values from 393,000 to 943,000 deaths. Even our lowest estimate indicates that a significant amount of death has occurred in Iraq, which is not being measured by other surveillance methods, such as news accounts or counting bodies in morgues.

It is clear that using more clusters would have given our estimate a greater degree of precision, assuming we also increased our sample size. For example, had we used 470 clusters, our range of plausible values would have been about 3 times narrower. However, there is a trade off between obtaining meaningful data and ensuring the safety of our surveyors. Surveying more clusters would have also meant more risk to the survey team.

In addition, Mr. Moore claimed that the Hopkins study did not include any demographic data. The survey did collect demographic data, such as age and sex, related to violence, although they are not the same details Mr. Moore’s company would have collected for public opinion polls. The characteristics of households in our study are similar to other accounts of households in Iraq and the region, though the household size for the 2006 study is smaller (6.9) than found in the 2004 survey (7.9).

Mr. Moore apparently agrees with us that a cluster survey is the preferred approach to quantifying post-invasion violent deaths in contrast to counts of deaths from newspaper articles and morgues or not counting at all. We hope he will join us in our recommendations that an independent body with adequate resources monitor deaths among civilians in conflict—using scientific methods, as was done in our survey.

Sincerely,

Gilbert Burnham

c. Also I'm putting you on notice that I will not address ever again your idiotic comments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that did not exist except in the fictious essays written by Doug Feith and his like minded IsraelFirster war mongering goons.

For the latter, pls. refer to the 09/08/06 report submitted to the Select Committee on Intelligence. I referred you to this 151 page report earlier on this thread. If you have lost this link, here it is again - also maybe some lurkers will learn something new today:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2006_rpt/srpt109-331.pdf

"Postwar findings about Iraq's WMD Programs and Links to Terrorism and How they Compare with Prewar Assessments" 09/08/06

scrapper2  posted on  2007-02-16   16:43:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#306. To: scrapper2, ALL (#262)

You should be ashamed of yourself for trivializing the Iraqi losses that are a direct result of our aggression on their sovereign nation.

Just curious. Do you want us out of Iraq NOW? An immediate pullout? I bet you do. If so, you should be ashamed of yourself given that most authorities seem to think that would lead to far greater chaos and death than is now occurring.

http://www.jhsph.edu/publichealthnews/press_releases/2006/burnham_iraq_2 006.html

This should be fun.

- The mortality survey used well-established and scientifically proven methods for measuring mortality and disease in populations.

So John Hopkins defends itself against criticism of its methods by repeating it used well-established and scientifically proven methods? I notice that they don't explain why their pre-war mortality estimate is so different from the mortality estimates from much larger UN and WHO studies ... that the Lancet also blessed as wonderful ... and which also used well-established and scientifically proven methods. And I don't see this source explaining why their results don't agree with this 2004 study by the UN Development program, with a larger and more reliable data set, that found after the first year there were one-fourth the number of excess deaths the Lancet found with their survey. They too used well-established and scientifically proven methods. Why did the John's Hopkins response ignore this?

- The results from the new study closely match the finding of the group’s October 2004 mortality survey.

ROTFLOL! That's funny. Essentually they are saying the latest study is right because the results matched the first study. Never mind that they used the same researchers, the same American Hating Iraqi team, and the same methods.

- According to the researchers, the overall rate of mortality in Iraq since March 2003 is 13.3 deaths per 1,000 persons per year compared to 5.5 deaths per 1,000 persons per year prior to March 2003.

They still haven't explained why that 5.5 deaths per 1000 is so different than the numbers found in larger UN and WHO studies. And just where are all the bodies and death certificates corresponding to these 13.3 deaths per thousand? You are still ignoring that question.

- This amounts to about 2.5 percent of Iraqi’s population having died as a consequence of the war.

Yeah. Imagine that. We've killed a larger percentage of Iraq's population using precision guided munitions and infantry/armor than the Allies killed Germans ... back when they were carpet bombing cities with high explosives and incendiaries day and night till most German cities were nothing but ruins. (sarcasm)

And as also pointed out ... that's almost as large a percent of the population as we killed in Japan (2.7 percent) in WW2. When again we fire-bombed and nuked cities till they were nothing but ruins. (sarcasm)

b. And here's a response by one of the John Hopkins researchers to the WSJ opinion piece that questioned the findings. It appears that Les Roberts had comments falsely attributed to him. Hmmm....

This should be good too.

As a comparison, a 3,700-person survey is nearly 3 times larger than the average U.S. political survey that reports a margin of error of +/-3%.

ROTFLOL! Except Les Roberts methodology was more like one run by democRATS where they bias the sample by putting more democRATS in the mix than statistically exist in the population. My response to this defense by Roberts is to ask him why 92 percent of his sample claiming deaths was able to supply him a death certificate when the Iraqi population as a whole seems to have far fewer death certificates. Did he just randomly get a group that had 10 times as many folks with death certificates as the norm? ROTFLOL!

Our study also produced a range of plausible values that reflect the margin of error in our estimate.

Plausible? Then where is ANY hard evidence that so many have been killed? Why are there no death certificates, no bodies, no mass graves, no imagery of the slaughter, no media reports of the slaughter (not even by the insurgents who have demonstrated they know how to use video cameras)? Why is there NO evidence but the word of liberal researchers who admitted their bias against Bush and the war and their desire to influence an election, who employed Iraqis to do the interviews who they admit hate Americans, and who published their results in a Journal that has a track record of being critical of the US government and who also admitted wanting to influence the election against Bush?

In addition, Mr. Moore claimed that the Hopkins study did not include any demographic data. The survey did collect demographic data, such as age and sex, related to violence, although they are not the same details Mr. Moore’s company would have collected for public opinion polls.

Did they ask which religious group they belonged to? Did they ask whether they supported Saddam's government? Did they ask whether they had members in the insurgency? Did they ask whether the person killed was an Saddam regime soldier or an insurgent? I think those are the sort of demographics Moore had in mind.

Gilbert Burnham

Perhaps I'll have a bit more to say about him later in this thread. ROTFLOL!

c. Also I'm putting you on notice that I will not address ever again your idiotic comments about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction that did not exist except in the fictious essays written by Doug Feith and his like minded IsraelFirster war mongering goons.

Still can't explain that binary sarin warhead, can you. You still can't tell us the contents of those truck convoys that went to Syria before the war ... under Iraqi military escort. You still can't tell us why Saddam's regime selectively sanitized files, computers and facilities the ISG said were related to WMD. You still can't tell us why Saddam didn't just come clean if he had no WMD or WMD programs.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-02-17   2:33:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 306.

#308. To: BeAChooser (#306)

BAC, you just posted a link to the main page of the Bloomberg School of Public Health. It has absolutely nothing to do with your argument -- you dumb fucking idiot.

...  posted on  2007-02-17 02:37:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#309. To: ..., beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#306)

BAC -

That single Sarin warhead was declared to be a freak left-over, by the Pentagon!

Your deceit attempts fail again (still).

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-02-17 02:39:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#315. To: BeAChooser (#306)

Still can't explain that binary sarin warhead, can you. Y

ou still can't tell us the contents of those truck convoys that went to Syria before the war ... under Iraqi military escort.

You still can't tell us why Saddam's regime selectively sanitized files, computers and facilities the ISG said were related to WMD.

You still can't tell us why Saddam didn't just come clean if he had no WMD or WMD programs

The White House is not "telling us" any of your claims - and they are the ones who decided on the war.

Why do you expect posters on an Internet site to defend outrageous claims that even the people who started the war, and who are constantly trying to justify it, aren't making?

AGAviator  posted on  2007-02-17 02:47:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#316. To: BeAChooser (#306)

You still can't tell us the contents of those truck convoys that went to Syria before the war ... under Iraqi military escort.

Sure I can. It's a kook conspircay theory that only exists in your head. And you don't have a shred of credible proof to the contrary. Just partisan hacks in the kook fodder press.

...  posted on  2007-02-17 02:51:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 306.

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