See other Pious Perverts Articles
Title: BeAChooser Bozo Count at 40 Plus and Counting - A Possible Site Record
Source:
Minerva
URL Source: http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=45820&Disp=409#C409
Published: Feb 19, 2007
Author: Minerva
Post Date: 2007-02-19 21:59:28 by Minerva
Keywords: None
Views: 23645
Comments: 375
Last night I took a guess at Beachy's bozo count. Today he spilled the beans and indicated that the number I guessed, between 40 and 50, was substantially correct. What does this mean? Well .... it means he is a piss poor excuse for excuse for an advocate. Nobody takes him serious. This is probably why Goldi booted him.
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#57. To: BeAChooser (#42)
Partially quoted? Is this some new trick term you thought up?
Isn't it defamation of character to attribute false quotes to people? And I'm still waiting for your explanation of what a "partial quote" is. Your imagination ran wild with that one post I made to you that I've had to quote back several times. Are you delusional perhaps? Do you hear voices that tell you things?
Again, this is the entire post I wrote where you have pulled out all sorts of meanings and interpretations including my saying a mass genocide and cover up is taking place by our US govt. This is my entire quote that you have been monkeying around with, in it's entirety. And there are no "partial quotes" in it. So, for like the tenth time, here it is, again: "Uh.... Perhaps you haven't heard, but often in wartime when people are killed, their deaths are not always documented by photograpshs, film, video or even by death certificates. In fact quite often they are killed and their bodies are quietly buried in mass graves where they aren't discovered until some time later. I'm surprised you aren't aware of this practice."
It is pretty fucking sad that this, of all forums, has come to this 'back and forth sniping tripe'. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN! Then again...perhaps that's the 'agenda'. come on, guys...back and forth sniping happens on all forums. board content and posts vary hour to hour depending on the individuals online and the articles and threads they're interested in posting to. this particular thread was posted by one person here. it doesn't set the tone or agenda for the entire forum forever and ever. sheesh. i guess i could be an ogress and start deleting all snipes. ;)
Di, dear lady, just tell the bastard to go fuck himself and get it over with! Being the nice sweet lady you are makes this turd-faced jerkoff bolder.
********************* 1. The 655,000 estimate is many, many times larger than any other estimate out there (and there are about half a dozen others). Those other estimates were more like 50,000 at the time the John Hopkins study was published. Are they all wrong and only John Reading no farther than the first few lines, you already make a misleading statement, implying that Cole's numbers have no basis. To give an idea of the lack of coverage of daily death statistics, Cole cites an example in Basra where the Iraqi governmente stated that one person each hour was assasinated for politcial reasons in that city. None of these made the news. That gives 24 unreported people just for political reasons in one day alone in one city alone. And Basra wasn't and isn't considered a particularly violent city. When you extend the lack of reporting about daily deaths in Basra, across the entire country and its 36 million population, you have an environment where hundreds of people could easily disappear without any major media noticing. Cole is proving his point quite well - and Cole has actually been to Iraq, unlike you. He just isn't offering proof in a way that you've set up in your own little world. All I can say is, life goes on without you.
Are you referring to BushCo? I know they're not in Iraq but their military is.
There are about 90 major towns and cities in Iraq. If we subtract Baghdad, where about 100 a day die, that still leaves 89. If an average of 4 or so are killed in each of those 89, then the study's results are correct. Of course, 4 is an average. Cities in areas dominated by the guerrilla movement will have more than 4 killed daily, sleepy Kurdish towns will have no one killed. If 470 were dying every day, what would that look like? West Baghdad is roughly 10% of the Iraqi population. It is certainly generating 47 dead a day. Same for Sadr City, same proportions. So to argue against the study you have to assume that Baquba, Hilla, Kirkuk, Kut, Amara, Samarra, etc., are not producing deaths at the same rate as the two halves of Baghad. But it is perfectly plausible that rough places like Kut and Amara, with their displaced Marsh Arab populations, are keeping up their end. Four dead a day in Kut or Amara at the hands of militiamen or politicized tribesmen? Is that really hard to believe? Have you been reading this column the last three years? The Los Angeles Times, for example, in a comprehensive investigation found less than 50,000 certificates. And since we've been over this many times already, you are intentionally trying to deceive and mislead.
Do I hear crickets?
Bunch of internet bums ... grand jury --- opium den ! ~ byeltsin
No, you never said that, but why else would you post me what you did in response to my assertion that 600,000 or more bodies, death certificates, news reports must be missing if the John Hopkins' estimate is correct? So let me ask you again, If you were not suggesting that someone in Iraq has disposed of half a million or more bodies without any record of doing so, then just say so, and I will be happy to apologize for misinterpreting your remarks.
Why don't you quote the entire post you responded to, Diana?
rowdee, you are such a gentleman. The ladies must love you.
They don't. At least not an honest one. For all the reasons mentioned. Now the fact that John Hopkins estimate that Cole chooses to champion happens to be an order of magnitude different than half a dozen other estimates probably should have been a clue to Cole (and you) that something is amiss. Are the folks in Basra somehow different than the folks surveyed by John Hopkins for their study? Because in the study samples (supposedly random), 92 percent of those who claimed deaths were able to provide death certificates presumably issued by a hospital, morgue or the health ministry. But when the LA Times (not a friend of the war or Bush) went to Basra to count the death certificates issued by those organizations, they didn't find the number of deaths you and John Hopkins suggest. They found perhaps a tenth that number. So are the folks in Basra different than the folks selected *randomly* by John Hopkins to represent the folks in Basra? Hmmmmmmm? Are you sure you can believe Cole? Did he provide a source to this claim? Do you know for a fact that the official in Basra said what he claimed? Can you prove that the deaths he claims were not reported to the authorities and counted? Can you prove death certificates weren't issued for those deaths? Here is another side of that claim: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12892865/site/newsweek "According to the local independent daily Al-Zaman, Shia-on-Shia murders are taking place at the rate of one per hour. (British sources dispute that, saying the city has averaged about 100 murders a month.)" Also, did you notice it is Shia-on-Shia murders? I thought the anti-war crowd has been claiming sectarian violence is the problem? I thought the Shia community was this monolith that is going to side with Iran?
Are the people in these 90 major towns and cities different than the people John Hopkins surveyed as being typical of them? Why didn't they go to morgues, hospitals and the health ministry to get a death certificate issued like the ones in the study? Or did they go but then ask those organizations to wipe their records of the fact? Please, resolve this question for me AGAviator since you seem so knowledgeable about the situation in Iraq. True, the LATimes article says "Iraqi officials involved in compiling the statistics say violent deaths in some regions have been grossly undercounted, notably in the troubled province of Al Anbar in the west." But somehow I doubt they meant their data was off by a factor of ten (or more). A factor of two or three, possibly ... but not a factor of ten. You would think that the LATimes would have mentioned something like that. Wouldn't you? If you read the John Hopkins report (you've done that, right?), you will find that it claims Al Anbar was surveyed with 3 clusters (compared to Baghdad's 12) out of a total of 47. If the number of clusters is representative of population (it should be), we can conclude that Baghdad has about 25 percent of the population. Anbar would have then 2.5 percent of the population. So now you must be claiming that hundreds of deaths (300?) have been occurring in Anbar every day, on average, since the war began. Let's look at the reasonableness of that. What is the population of Anbar? If Iraq is about 27 million total, Anbar must have had a population of about 680,000 (call it 700,000). Now 300 deaths a day for 39 months (the time between the beginning of the war and July of last year) would total about 351,000. Wow ... are you suggesting that HALF the population of Anbar died during that time?!!! And that's gone unnoticed by the media? ROTFLOL! Indeed, those are regions where officials probably don't like Americans or the Iraqi government. What better way to embarrass both than to report death of that magnitude? But they haven't done that, have they. Why not? Why are there no pictures or video of this slaughter coming out of those areas? We know the insurgents have photographic equipment and access to the media. Why aren't they using it? Showing this supposed slaughter would probably have more effect than any thousand successful bombings in getting the US out of the country. So why no pictures? Why no video?
come on, guys...back and forth sniping happens on all forums It's beyond back and forth sniping and is now just a waste of unreadable posts and nonsense. That's what shills do to threads and eventually to forums. Look at LF.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
Let's see if you have answers to my questions?
BAC's posts have always been that way. Some think BAC is a paid shill. I don't think so myself. I think he's just psychotic and with less than average intelligence & talent. I don't think he has the talent to make clear posts that convince anyone. I think he genuinely believes that the mainstream media is always right and anyone who challenges it is a dangerous kook. he's trying to save the world from dangerous kooks.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
17. Change the subject...This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues. 4) Teamwork. They tend to operate in self-congratulatory and complementary packs or teams. Of course, this can happen naturally in any public forum, but there will likely be an ongoing pattern of frequent exchanges of this sort where professionals are involved. Sometimes one of the players will infiltrate the opponent camp to become a source for straw man or other tactics designed to dilute opponent presentation strength.
"First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then you win." --Mahatma K. Gandhi
Eat Worms, BAC! You're an intellectual parasite. Wherever you've gone, you contribute nothing of value.
I yield - you win.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I think he genuinely believes that the mainstream media is always right and anyone who challenges it is a dangerous kook. he's trying to save the world from dangerous kooks. Low intellect, psychotic, no talent..paranoid..delusions of grandeur [save the world from kooks] and perhaps, "sexually disoriented" = Chimp = Insane.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act - - George Orwell It certainly does. The people who did the John Hopkins survey actually went out into Iraq, went to a diverse collection of sites, and risked their lives in the process. The other people are like you, where if they even go to Iraq they stay behind the Green Zone and compile news reports from other people who also stay behind the Green Zone. Now to compare apples to apples, tell me how the John Hopkins' study compares to another study that also had people going house to house in Iraq and taking a survey. When you get to that, tell me why you keep harping on "Where are the bodies," when a 655,000 death count + or - the confidence range would mean an average of 4 bodies per day in 89 regions throughout Iraq.
There are some very good reasons for not going to morgues and hospitals: (1) You can get killed in the process of moving around the country, and (2) You can have your dead kin accused of being a terrorist which will result in some serious problems for you and your own surviving family. Furthermore, to answer your ghoulish preoccupation with "Where are the bodies, where are the death cerfificates" the Cole article cites a common practice of throwing corpses into the Tigris river and other bodies of water. It happens day in and day out. So do you expect the majority of bodies disposed of in the Tigris River to show up and get identified as bodies, and given a death certificate? No I don't. That is arm-waving and speculation on your part. Iraqi officials involved in compiling the statistics say violent deaths in some regions have been grossly undercounted, notably in the troubled province of Al Anbar in the west. Health workers there are unable to compile the data because of violence, security crackdowns, electrical shortages and failing telephone networks. The Health Ministry acknowledged the undercount. In addition, the ministry said its figures exclude the three northern provinces of the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan because Kurdish officials do not provide death toll figures to the government in Baghdad... However, samples obtained from local health departments in other provinces show an undercount that brings the total well beyond 50,000. The figure also does not include deaths outside Baghdad in the first year of the invasion. The morgue records show a predominantly civilian toll; the hospital records gathered by the Health Ministry do not distinguish between civilians, combatants and security forces. ... "Everything has increased," said one official in the Health Ministry who didn't want to be identified for security reasons. "Bombings have increased, shootings have increased." ... So you intrepret "Many more," "serious lapses in reporting," "grossly undercounted," "exclude the three northern provinces," "does not include deaths outside Baghdad," "everything has increased," and "well beyond" as meaning "not more than double." Nobody else will.
So did this group http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/PDF/Analytical%20Report%20-%20English.pdf from the UN Development Program. In a much larger study than John Hopkins', they only found 24,000 war-related deaths at a time when John Hopkins was claiming 98,000. The UN used similar techniques - clusters, etc. So perhaps the difference is that they didn't hire folks to conduct the study who (according to Les Roberts) HATED Americans and the researchers weren't trying to influence a US election against Bush. You know nothing about me. Asked and answered. Now it's your turn. Tell us how a study that claims its random sample is representative of the country at large could have 92 percent of those claiming deaths provide a death certificate as proof when various mosques, hospitals and bureaucracies that issue death certificates can't (according to the LA Times) locate even 10 percent of the deaths the John Hopkins' study claimed? This should have been another sign to Cole (and you) that something is terribly amiss. By the way ... did you ever find the source of Cole's claim about the deaths in Basra? No? Did you ever confirm that those deaths weren't reported to authorities or that death certificates weren't issued in those cases? No? Did you ever confirm those deaths weren't counted in the estimates put out by such organizations as IraqBodyCount? No? Did you ever find out why the British said the death toll was closer to 100 a month than 1 an hour? No?
Then why did all the folks in the John Hopkins study do that? Did John Hopkins *random* sample just happen to pick a group who did when most of the rest of the country didn't? Or are you suggesting that those who don' t go to morgues, etc can still get death certificates that John Hopkins would accept as legitimate proof? Who issues those death certificate? The LA Times didn't mention any other source for them other than morgues, hospitals and the health ministry. Perhaps the folks in the John Hopkins' study simply create their own? ROTFLOL! Really? You really think that the highly liberal, anti-Bush, anti-war LA Times wouldn't mention that the death toll is off by a factor of 10 if it were? Really? ROTFLOL! That doesn't help your case either, since the second John Hopkins' study *confirmed* the results of the first which claimed that 98,000 died in the first 18 months after the war began. Thus the majority of the deaths in the 655,000 death study had to have occured after that "chaotic first year". But Kurdistan has been very peaceful compared to the rest of Iraq. Surely you aren't claiming that the death rate in Kurdistan is any higher than in Baghdad. If not, then again, the number undercounted can't be much more than the baseline count. You are still missing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of bodies, death certificates and eyewitness reports. By the way, the liberal, anti-war, mainstream media won't tell the public this, but Kurdistan is a real success story. They are doing quite well right now compared to under Saddam.
Your "group's" report consists of the following sections Chapter two describes and analyses the characteristics of the Iraqi population. Chapter three discusses the findings on nutritional status and child health. Chapter four describes the ILCS findings on coverage of reproductive health services and birth history. Chapter five focuses on the general health situation of the Iraqi population and their access to health services. Chapter six considers the supply, demand, and quality of education in Iraq. Chapter seven presents an analysis of the present living condition of Iraqi women You believe I know nothing about you. That does not mean I don't know anything about you, Emperor. Spamming a 178 page report is not answering. Irrelevant. Bureaucracies tracking or not tracking death certificates they issue, does not equate to people receiving or not receiving said death certificates. The LA Times said the agencies could not provide summaries of these certificates, not that they did not issue any more than 50,000. Cole was there and knows people there. You weren't, and don't.
Another one of your trademarked diverisons. The survey asked if they had death certificates. They did not ask if they had death certificates from a morgue or a hospital that happened to be contacted by the LA Times. Seems like "ROTFLOL" is your code for "I'm starting to have difficulties really explaining my position." The survey said most of their respondents had death certificates. The LA Times said it was difficult to summarize, collate and count the number of death certificates issued, at official reporting levels. A completely bullshit argument you're pulling out of thin air. The LA Times like any reputable publication does not claim to know what it has just said it does not know. If they knew they were off by a factor of ten, they would have had the real number to begin with. You really like to make this crap up as you go along, don't you? False. They confirmed their number with a 2nd sample, which corroborated the first. They didn't try to prove their number with official statistics which they explicitly noted were difficult to come by. Not during the first year in Mosul and Kirkuk. There is also Anbar province and possibly Basra which are worse. That has already been discussed. You keep spamming the same old stuff. Four bodies a day x 90 municipalities, plus deaths in the countryside not associated with those municipalities, easily brings the total past 600,000. Many Kurds are mercenaries in the employ of the US government, and their government is also letting Israeli money and military operatives have free rein in return for a future chunk of their oil reserves should they be able to pull off secession. There's Big Oil money around there too, because Kurdistan sits on top of 2% of the world's proven oil reserves. Kurdistan is a welfare project for Big Oil and Israeli shysters all being financed by the American taxpayer.
Did you look for the chapter titled "War-Related deaths - between 18,000 and 29,000." In Orange type. It's on page 54 (or 53 or 55 depending on how you interpret the numbering). That chapter says "The ILCS data has been derived from a question posed to households concerning missing and dead persons during the two years prior to the survey." And the study was based on much larger sample than the John's Hopkins' study. So that's going to be your *excuse*? That Iraq's morgues, hospitals, etc actually issued 655,000 death certificates but failed to write down the fact that they had or record any other information about the dead? ROTFLOL! Do you know how absolutely lame that sounds? ROTFLOL! But at least I was able to URL a source which discussed this rather than just claimed it. And how often have Iraqi defense ministers said something which later turned out to be untrue? (sarcasm) And noted that British authorities disputed that claim. And it didn't say anything about the claim being that one per hour had been killed for the last year as Cole claimed. I tell you what ... let's look at some more sources. From May 2006, http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article485489.ece "Majid al-Sari, an adviser to the Iraqi Ministry of Defence, describing the situation in Basra to the daily al-Zaman, said that on average one person was being assassinated every hour." Well at least now we know the real source of the claim. And according to the article "Tribes who once lived in the marshlands outside Basra are engaged in constant feuds with other tribes." So the violence is Shia on Shia. Gee ... I thought you folks have been saying the Shia are a monolith aligned with Iran. But do we find any other articles about this? No. All the sources I found repeat the same Patrick Cockburn article. I couldn't find the original al-Zaman article. If you can, I'd love to see it. But let's assume that Cockburn was only quoting that article. Can we trust al-Zaman, http://(www.azzaman.com? None other than Juan Cole provides us with this (http://www.juancole.com/2006/11/al-zaman-good-riddance-to-rumsfeld.html ) from the editorial staff at al-Zaman. It's in regards to the resignation of Rumsfeld. "Everyone should read the signs of joy in Iraq after the announcement of the departure of a politician whose name is linked to the most heinous crimes, which began with the scandal of Abu Ghraib prison and ended with his unleashing of death squads and criminals to disrupt the security of Iraq. His crimes also included dissolving one of the oldest armies in the region, for the most part made up of brave patriots, as a preparation for the partition and tearing apart of Iraq. That's not exactly a fair representation of the facts in my opinion. A bit of an exaggeration ... wouldn't you say? And I found this from October 2006, http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/10/e0f5ff85-f2a0-4fa5-9a31-0035ae7d5198.html "While violence continues to take a toll on Iraqi journalists, actions by the Iraqi government are seen as trying to stifle press freedoms. Parliament urged Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki on October 16 to shut down the Al- Sharqiyah news channel and "Al-Zaman" newspaper after what it described as their negative coverage of a recent draft law the parliament passed on turning Iraq into a federal state. The outlets warned that the law could lead to the disintegration of Iraq on ethnic and sectarian grounds, "Al-Zaman reported on October 17." I suppose they meant the Shia on Shia murders that it's claimed are occurring in Basra at the rate of one an hour? (By the way, I'm certainly against al-Zaman being shut down and I'm willing to assume they did a fair reporting of the story in question). So what do we know about the Majid al-Sari? He's quoted in the Chicago Tribune saying "[Iran] wants to promote its own brand of theocracy, especially among Iraq's Shia population, and yet make sure that Iraq remains weak," said Majid al-Sari, a senior adviser to Iraq's Ministry of Defense. "They don't want too much instability in Iraq. Just a little." The article goes on to say that "Iranian cash is being funneled to an array of armed Shiite groups in the city, partly to tie down coalition military forces, and partly to keep any one militia from consolidating power, said a military analyst familiar with the tense situation in Basra." So perhaps this violence is actually just part of the wider, ongoing, undeclared war with the terrorist sponsoring state of Iran? Perhaps the solution is not to withdraw precipitously from Iraq but take the war to Iran. And here's one last comment concerning conditions in Basra in 2007, a year later. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6373087.stm "Tony Blair has said the operation to allow Iraqis to take the lead in frontline security in Basra had been "completed" and "successful". ... snip ... He said the situation was different in the two different areas, with no Sunni insurgency or al-Qaeda suicide attacks in the Basra area. He also said sectarian violence in Basra had fallen "enormously", and the number of murders had fallen to 30 in December. ... snip ... "Of course I am devastated by the numbers of people who have died in Iraq, but it's not British and American troops that are killing them. They are being killed by people who are deliberately using terrorism to try to stop the country getting on its feet."
Good Lord, BAC, your buddy Boy George went in with a War Crime invasion and occupation - and the locals aren't supposed to fight back, with every possible resource they can muster? Is that your definition of 'righteous?' C'mon, BAC - you can tell us.
But the LA Times only mentioned morgues, hospitals and the health ministry as being sources of death certificates. So I ask you ... what other sources are there? Does the John Hopkins report mention any other sources? No. So what sources are you claiming exist. Oh that's right ... your *theory* is that the morgues, etc did issue the 655,000 certificates but just forgot to make a note of them. ROTFLOL! Reputable? ROTFLOL! Do you know why they call it the LASlime? Not false. That's exactly what I said. The second study confirmed the results of the first study ... so the second study must have concluded that 98,000 (or so) died in the first 18 months after the war. So your theory that the reason they couldn't find the death certificates of 600,000 is that "many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion" does not help your case. You can't use the first year of the war to explain why so many death certificates are missing. But those areas were supposedly counted in the first John Hopkins study during the first year. You are still missing half a million death certificates. No, I already addressed the problem with assuming that most of the deaths occurred in Anbar. You'd have to have killed half the population of the region to explain the John Hopkins estimate and SURELY that would have gotten the attention of the world media. And the Basra statistics from John Hopkins' study have the same problem. Basra is also only 2.5 percent of the population. In fact, even at 1 per hour death rates you and Juan Cole are now claiming you can't make the John Hopkins' estimate make sense. Consider ... 39 months times 30 days times 24 hours time 1/hour = 28,080. That's it ... 28,000. And you'd have to claim THIS is one of the most violent areas of the country every day since the beginning of the war. Just to get 28,000 deaths. When are you going to understand that the John Hopkins study is fundamentally flawed? Probably never...
For the sake of argument, BAC - does the smaller of the number of civilian deaths take away the American War Crimes which produced them. C'mon, BAC; you can tell us.
Given the stated purpose of the survey, any questions about missing and dead persons were quite secondary to that stated purpose. Since the survey's purpose was not to track the excess deaths, but instead try to measure the overall quality of living conditions, it should not be relied upon to give an estimate of the excess deaths. Clearly you don't understand the meaning of "Serious lapses in recording deaths," and "Continued spotty reporting," and "Unable to compile the data," And your URL isn't someone "claiming" it who just happened to take the trouble to put it onto the Internet? More irrelevant remarks. As the occupying power, the United States is responsible for the security of the country, period. This means protecting the people from criminals and violence of all forms. Many people within the US and even within the military warned against exactly this type of chaos. The Administration ignored them. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that statement, and if you do, it is yet more proof of your moral depravity. Not in the least.
Bidding starts at 1 euro for an 8-track with a cult following.
sometimes there just aren't enough belgians
Clearly you don't understand the meaning of "Serious lapses in recording deaths," and "Continued spotty reporting," and "Unable to compile the data," A pretty lame attempt to weasel out of my incisive answer with an ad hominem. You said the LA Times would have stated if they were off by a factor of ten. I said that if the LA Times knew how much they were off, then they'd have the real number to begin with. Then you try to change the subject. And you fancy yourself a *debater.* I use "gross undercounts," serious lapses in recording deaths," "continued spotty reporting," and "unable to compile the data," to explain why the LA Times could not get a summary of the death certificates at a top level And that does not equate to those death certificates being *missing.* No I am not missing them. I know this is your last, best hope to try to obfuscate the results of the survey, but handing out a death certificate, and keeping track of the total number of death certificates handed out, are two completely different actions. Especially in a chaotic war zone, which Iraq is. Anbar is off-limits to the world media. And this really is all you have to say once one strips away the bullshit. You claim there couldn't have been 655,000 excess deaths in Iraq because the media is picking on poor little George Bush. That's really the only agrument you have to offer. Consider...4 bodies per day average, x 89 municipalities, plus Baghdad, plus deaths in the country, in a country the size of California with a population of 36 million and a normal death rate of over 100,000 per year, most of which is off- limits and very dangerous to anyone including the media. And yet you keep on harping on a non-existent "problem" of where the bodies are - as if they aren't scattered all over the country. When are you going to understand the war was based on lies, its supporters adamantly keep information about it from the world and from American citizens, there has been more than $1 Trillion spent on it, there have been tens of thousands of missions both in the air and on the ground, it has been going on for more nearly 4 years - yet you would have everyone believe that hardly any one ever has died as a result of it.
Blue Oyster Cult - "Don't Fear the Reaper?"
well done. i like your ending paragraph summation.
they had become like they are fluff...I'm not they! helter skelter.. :)
sometimes there just aren't enough belgians
I hope I die before I get old? I don't trust anyone!
sometimes there just aren't enough belgians
That doesn't make the results from that question inaccurate. What gives an indication of inaccuracy is when a study claims that 92 percent of those claiming deaths during its interviews were able to a death certificates as proof ... yet the number of death certificates issued by those who issue such things appears to be a small fraction of the number of death certificates that should exist in the general population if that 92 percent figure is to be believed. By Patrick Cockburn, AGAIN? What a coincidence. And I don't see anything in that article disputing the difference pointed out between the two areas or the statement by Blair that deaths per month in the region are way down from the CLAIM of one per hour.
"And you fancy yourself a *debater*." You don't even understand what I said, AGAviator. Let me try again. You claimed that the reason the LATimes couldn't find the death certificates of some 550,000 Iraqis is that "many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion". But the source whose estimate you are trying to defend as credible, John Hopkins, only claims that 100,000 died in that first 18 months. That is a small fraction of the 550,000 that are missing. Simply put, chaos in the first year cannot explain the missing HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of death certificates that MUST exist if the John Hopkins claim that 92 percent of those claiming deaths were able to provide death certificates is to be believed. But not to the insurgency's media. And don't claim they aren't using the media. They could easily document the death of the half of Anbar's population that would be necessary to make the John Hopkins' study results believable. So go ahead and ignore what that 28,000 figure says about the theory you tried to pushed that Anbar and Basra can explain the John Hopkins estimate. Now your NEW theory is that EVERY city in Iraq has been seeing 120 killings every month since the beginning of the war ... regardless of the total lack of evidence supporting that claim. This just gets lamer and lamer. You must be really comfortable in the ME because your arguments shift just like the desert sands. ROTFLOL!
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestHere is the rest of the sentence you partially quoted ...
#58. To: BeAChooser (#44)
Do you think someone is out there disposing of the bodies after our soldiers kill them, Diana? If so, who is this someone? How many someone's are there?
#59. To: BeAChooser, rowdee (#51)
If you are not suggesting that someone in Iraq has disposed of half a million or more bodies without any record of doing so, just say so Diana, and I will be happy to apologize for misinterpreting your remarks.
#60. To: who knows what evil, Brian S (#47)
Brian S (#7)
#61. To: Diana (#56)
#62. To: BeAChooser (#31)
Readers ... note that not one of the following verifiable facts and concerns about the Les Roberts study is addressed in Mr Coles article:
#63. To: BeAChooser (#51)
If you are not suggesting that someone in Iraq has disposed of half a million or more bodies without any record of doing so, just say so Diana,
#64. To: BeAChooser (#31)
There is heavy fighting almost every day at Ramadi in al-Anbar province, among guerrillas, townspeople, tribes, Marines and Iraqi police and army. We almost never get a report of these skirmishes and we almost never are told about Iraqi casualties in Ramadi. Does 1 person a day die there of political violence? Is it more like 4? 10? What about Samarra? Tikrit? No one is saying. Since they aren't, on what basis do we say that the Lancet study is impossible?
In that same article, The Los Angeles times explicitly stated that 50,000 is a gross undercount and excluded entire sections of the country.
#65. To: AGAviator (#62)
#66. To: Diana, ALL (#56)
"to explain away the discrepancy of the 600,000 or so missing bodies, missing death certificates, and missing news reports."
I never said that, ever.
#67. To: Diana, ALL (#59)
"If you are not suggesting that someone in Iraq has disposed of half a million or more bodies without any record of doing so, just say so Diana, and I will be happy to apologize for misinterpreting your remarks."
Again, this is the entire post I wrote where you have pulled out all sorts of meanings and interpretations including my saying a mass genocide and cover up is taking place by our US govt. This is my entire quote that you have been monkeying around with, in it's entirety. And there are no "partial quotes" in it.
So, for like the tenth time, here it is, again:
"Uh....
Perhaps you haven't heard, but often in wartime when people are killed, their deaths are not always documented by photograpshs, film, video or even by death certificates.
In fact quite often they are killed and their bodies are quietly buried in mass graves where they aren't discovered until some time later. I'm surprised you aren't aware of this practice."
#68. To: rowdee, Diana, ALL (#61)
Di, dear lady, just tell the bastard to go fuck himself and get it over with!
Being the nice sweet lady you are makes this turd-faced jerkoff bolder.
#69. To: AGAviator, ALL (#62)
"1. The 655,000 estimate is many, many times larger than any other estimate out there (and there are about half a dozen others). Those other estimates were more like 50,000 at the time the John Hopkins study was published. Are they all wrong and only John"
Reading no farther than the first few lines, you already make a misleading statement, implying that Cole's numbers have no basis.
To give an idea of the lack of coverage of daily death statistics, Cole cites an example in Basra where the Iraqi governmente stated that one person each hour was assasinated for politcial reasons in that city. None of these made the news. That gives 24 unreported people just for political reasons in one day alone in one city alone. And Basra wasn't and isn't considered a particularly violent city.
Cole is proving his point quite well - and Cole has actually been to Iraq, unlike you. He just isn't offering proof in a way that you've set up in your own little world. All I can say is, life goes on without you.
#70. To: AGAviator, ALL (#64)
There are about 90 major towns and cities in Iraq.
In that same article, The Los Angeles times explicitly stated that 50,000 is a gross undercount and excluded entire sections of the country.
#71. To: christine (#60)
It is pretty fucking sad that this, of all forums, has come to this 'back and forth sniping tripe'.
#72. To: Minerva, ALL (#65)
Do I hear crickets?
#73. To: angle (#71)
now just a waste of unreadable posts and nonsense
#74. To: Minerva (#65)
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html
#75. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#72)
#76. To: BeAChooser (#72)
Let's see if you have answers to my questions?
#77. To: Red Jones (#73)
(Edited)
BAC's posts have always been that way. Some think BAC is a paid shill. I don't think so myself. I think he's just psychotic and with less than average intelligence & talent. I don't think he has the talent to make clear posts that convince anyone.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition
In a CorporoFascist capitalist society, there is no money in peace, freedom, or a healthy population, and therefore, no incentive to achieve these - - IndieTX
#78. To: BeAChooser, Minerva (#69)
Now the fact that John Hopkins estimate that Cole chooses to champion happens to be an order of magnitude different than half a dozen other estimates probably should have been a clue to Cole (and you) that something is amiss.
#79. To: BeAChooser, Minerva, Skydrifter, Red Jones (#70)
(Edited)
Are the people in these 90 major towns and cities different than the people John Hopkins surveyed as being typical of them? Why didn't they go to morgues, hospitals and the health ministry to get a death certificate issued like the ones in the study? Or did they go but then ask those organizations to wipe their records of the fact? Please, resolve this question for me AGAviator since you seem so knowledgeable about the situation in Iraq.
In that same article, The Los Angeles times explicitly stated that 50,000 is a gross undercount and excluded entire sections of the country.
True, the LATimes article says "Iraqi officials involved in compiling the statistics say violent deaths in some regions have been grossly undercounted, notably in the troubled province of Al Anbar in the west." But somehow I doubt they meant their data was off by a factor of ten (or more). A factor of two or three, possibly ... but not a factor of ten. You would think that the LATimes would have mentioned something like that. Wouldn't you?
Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion, when there was no functioning Iraqi government, and continued spotty reporting nationwide since...
#80. To: AGAviator, ALL (#78)
The people who did the John Hopkins survey actually went out into Iraq, went to a diverse collection of sites, and risked their lives in the process.
The other people are like you, where if they even go to Iraq they stay behind the Green Zone and compile news reports from other people who also stay behind the Green Zone.
Now to compare apples to apples, tell me how the John Hopkins' study compares to another study that also had people going house to house in Iraq and taking a survey.
#81. To: AGAviator, ALL (#79)
"Are the people in these 90 major towns and cities different than the people John Hopkins surveyed as being typical of them? Why didn't they go to morgues, hospitals and the health ministry to get a death certificate issued like the ones in the study? Or did they go but then ask those organizations to wipe their records of the fact? Please, resolve this question for me AGAviator since you seem so knowledgeable about the situation in Iraq."
There are some very good reasons for not going to morgues and hospitals: (1) You can get killed in the process of moving around the country, and (2) You can have your dead kin accused of being a terrorist which will result in some serious problems for you and your own surviving family.
"True, the LATimes article says "Iraqi officials involved in compiling the statistics say violent deaths in some regions have been grossly undercounted, notably in the troubled province of Al Anbar in the west." But somehow I doubt they meant their data was off by a factor of ten (or more). A factor of two or three, possibly ... but not a factor of ten. You would think that the LATimes would have mentioned something like that. Wouldn't you?"
No I don't.
Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion, when there was no functioning Iraqi government, and continued spotty reporting nationwide since...
The Health Ministry acknowledged the undercount. In addition, the ministry said its figures exclude the three northern provinces of the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan because Kurdish officials do not provide death toll figures to the government in Baghdad...
#82. To: BeAChooser (#80)
So did this group http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/PDF/Analytical%20Report%20-% 20English.pdf from the UN Development Program. In a much larger study than John Hopkins', they only found 24,000 war-related deaths
Chapter one examines housing conditions, the availability of infrastructure and services, and environmental issues.
Nothing about taking a survey to find out the extent of the war's casualties. You know nothing about me.
Asked and answered.
Now it's your turn. Tell us how a study that claims its random sample is representative of the country at large could have 92 percent of those claiming deaths provide a death certificate as proof when various mosques, hospitals and bureaucracies that issue death certificates can't
By the way ... did you ever find the source of Cole's claim about the deaths in Basra?
#83. To: BeAChooser (#81)
(Edited)
Did John Hopkins *random* sample just happen to pick a group who did when most of the rest of the country didn't? Or are you suggesting that those who don't go to morgues, etc can still get death certificates?
Perhaps the folks in the John Hopkins' study simply create their own? ROTFLOL!
Really? You really think that the highly liberal, anti-Bush, anti-war LA Times wouldn't mention that the death toll is off by a factor of 10 if it were? Really? ROTFLOL!
Many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion, when there was no functioning Iraqi government, and continued spotty reporting nationwide since...
That doesn't help your case either, since the second John Hopkins' study *confirmed* the results of the first which claimed that 98,000 died in the first 18 months after the war began.
But Kurdistan has been very peaceful compared to the rest of Iraq.
You are still missing hundreds and hundreds of thousands of bodies, death certificates and eyewitness reports.
By the way, the liberal, anti-war, mainstream media won't tell the public this, but Kurdistan is a real success story. They are doing quite well right now compared to under Saddam.
#84. To: AGAviator, ALL (#82)
Your "group's" report consists of the following sections ... snip ... Nothing about taking a survey to find out the extent of the war's casualties.
"Now it's your turn. Tell us how a study that claims its random sample is representative of the country at large could have 92 percent of those claiming deaths provide a death certificate as proof when various mosques, hospitals and bureaucracies that issue death certificates can't"
Irrelevant. Bureaucracies tracking or not tracking death certificates they issue, does not equate to people receiving or not receiving said death certificates.
"By the way ... did you ever find the source of Cole's claim about the deaths in Basra?"
Cole was there and knows people there. You weren't, and don't.
#85. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#84)
#86. To: AGAviator, ALL (#83)
"Did John Hopkins *random* sample just happen to pick a group who did when most of the rest of the country didn't? Or are you suggesting that those who don't go to morgues, etc can still get death certificates?"
Another one of your trademarked diverisons. The survey asked if they had death certificates. They did not ask if they had death certificates from a morgue or a hospital that happened to be contacted by the LA Times.
The LA Times like any reputable publication does not claim to know what it has just said it does not know.
"That doesn't help your case either, since the second John Hopkins' study *confirmed* the results of the first which claimed that 98,000 died in the first 18 months after the war began."
False. They confirmed their number with a 2nd sample, which corroborated the first.
But Kurdistan has been very peaceful compared to the rest of Iraq.
Not during the first year in Mosul and Kirkuk.
There is also Anbar province and possibly Basra which are worse.
Kurdistan is a welfare project for Big Oil and Israeli shysters all being financed by the American taxpayer.
#87. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#86)
#88. To: BeAChooser (#84)
Did you look for the chapter titled "War-Related deaths - between 18,000 and 29,000." In Orange type. It's on page 54 (or 53 or 55 depending on how you interpret the numbering). That chapter says "The ILCS data has been derived from a question posed to households concerning missing and dead persons during the two years prior to the survey." And the study was based on much larger sample than the John's Hopkins' study.
Irrelevant. Bureaucracies tracking or not tracking death certificates they issue, does not equate to people receiving or not receiving said death certificates.
So that's going to be your *excuse*? That Iraq's morgues, hospitals, etc actually issued 655,000 death certificates but failed to write down the fact that they had or record any other information about the dead? ROTFLOL! Do you know how absolutely lame that sounds? ROTFLOL!
"Grossly undercounted," and
. So what do you do instead? Try to bluster past your ignorance with your usual flurry of "ROTFLOL's" But at least I was able to URL a source which discussed this rather than just claimed it.
Well at least now we know the real source of the claim. And according to the article "Tribes who once lived in the marshlands outside Basra are engaged in constant feuds with other tribes." So the violence is Shia on Shia. Gee ... I thought you folks have been saying the Shia are a monolith aligned with Iran.
Can we trust al-Zaman, http:// (www.azzaman.com? None other than Juan Cole provides us with this (http://www.juancole.com/2006/11/al-zaman-good-riddance- to-rumsfeld.html ) from the editorial staff at al-Zaman. It's in regards to the resignation of Rumsfeld.
"Everyone should read the signs of joy in Iraq after the announcement of the departure of a politician whose name is linked to the most heinous crimes, which began with the scandal of Abu Ghraib prison and ended with his unleashing of death squads and criminals to disrupt the security of Iraq. His crimes also included dissolving one of the oldest armies in the region, for the most part made up of brave patriots, as a preparation for the partition and tearing apart of Iraq.
That's not exactly a fair representation of the facts in my opinion. A bit of an exaggeration ... wouldn't you say?
And here's one last comment concerning conditions in Basra in 2007, a year later.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6373087.stm "Tony Blair has said the operation to allow Iraqis to take the lead in frontline security in Basra had been "completed" and "successful". ... snip ... He said the situation was different in the two different areas, with no Sunni insurgency or al-Qaeda suicide attacks in the Basra area.
#89. To: AGAviator, BeAChooser (#88)
#90. To: BeAChooser (#86)
But the LA Times only mentioned morgues, hospitals and the health ministry as being sources of death certificates. So I ask you ... what other sources are there? Does the John Hopkins report mention any other sources? No. So what sources are you claiming exist. Oh that's right ... your *theory* is that the morgues, etc did issue the 655,000 certificates but just forgot to make a note of them. ROTFLOL!
"Grossly undercounted," and
. So what do you do instead? Try to bluster past your ignorance with your usual flurry of "ROTFLOL's" The LA Times like any reputable publication does not claim to know what it has just said it does not know.
Reputable? ROTFLOL! Do you know why they call it the LASlime?
Not false. That's exactly what I said. The second study confirmed the results of the first study ... so the second study must have concluded that 98,000 (or so) died in the first 18 months after the war. So your theory that the reason they couldn't find the death certificates of 600,000 is that "many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion" does not help your case. You can't use the first year of the war to explain why so many death certificates are missing.
t those areas were supposedly counted in the first John Hopkins study during the first year. You are still missing half a million death certificates.
You'd have to have killed half the population of the region to explain the John Hopkins estimate and SURELY that would have gotten the attention of the world media.
Consider ... 39 months times 30 days times 24 hours time 1/hour = 28,080.
When are you going to understand that the John Hopkins study is fundamentally flawed?
#91. To: Dakmar (#89)
An 8-track with a cult following.
#92. To: AGAviator (#90)
#93. To: AGAviator (#91)
power chord>
They aren't we!
Them ain't me!
#94. To: AGAviator (#91)
#95. To: AGAviator, ALL (#88)
Given the stated purpose of the survey, any questions about missing and dead persons were quite secondary to that stated purpose.
And here's one last comment concerning conditions in Basra in 2007, a year later.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6373087.stm "Tony Blair has said the operation to allow Iraqis to take the lead in frontline security in Basra had been "completed" and "successful". ... snip ... He said the situation was different in the two different areas, with no Sunni insurgency or al-Qaeda suicide attacks in the Basra area."
Debunked Here
#96. To: AGAviator, ALL (#90)
"The second study confirmed the results of the first study ... so the second study must have concluded that 98,000 (or so) died in the first 18 months after the war. So your theory that the reason they couldn't find the death certificates of 600,000 is that "many more Iraqis are believed to have been killed but not counted because of serious lapses in recording deaths in the chaotic first year after the invasion" does not help your case. You can't use the first year of the war to explain why so many death certificates are missing."
I use "gross undercounts," serious lapses in recording deaths," "continued spotty reporting," and "unable to compile the data," to explain why the LA Times could not get a summary of the death certificates at a top level
Anbar is off-limits to the world media.
Consider ... 39 months times 30 days times 24 hours time 1/hour = 28,080.
Consider...4 bodies per day average, x 89 municipalities, plus Baghdad,
.
.
.