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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: What if 9-11 truth movement is wrong?
Source: The Republic
URL Source: http://www.republic-news.org/archive/158-repub/158_nenonen2.htm
Published: Mar 4, 2007
Author: Michael Nenonen
Post Date: 2007-03-04 15:36:34 by YertleTurtle
Keywords: None
Views: 296
Comments: 29

After thinking about it for a long time, I’ve decided to make two confessions. The people who don’t laugh at me for one will almost certainly laugh at me for the other. The first is that for a while I honestly wondered if 9-11 was an inside job. The second is that I now believe that this hypothesis is extremely unlikely.

To be fair, 9-11 does seem pretty odd, at least at first glance.

For instance, in 2000, a think tank called the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) produced a report called Rebuilding America’s Defenses. The authors argue that America should pursue a much more aggressive foreign policy to preserve an unquestioned and unchallengeable global hegemony. The Bush administration seems to be following the report’s recommendations, which isn’t surprising, as PNAC’s members include Dick Cheney, John Bolton, Lewis “Scooter” Libby, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz. Strangely enough, the report said that the recommended changes could only be implemented slowly, unless America suffered “a new Pearl Harbor,” a statement that seems suspiciously prescient in the post-9-11 world.

Suspicious yes, but . . .

The events of September 11, 2001 also seem rather suspicious. Why didn’t jets from Andrews Air Force Base intercept the planes? Why did Building Seven collapse even though the planes didn’t hit it? And afterwards, why did the administration stonewall the 9-11 Commission? The list of questions goes on and on.

Those questions have spawned the “9-11 truth movement,” which challenges the official narrative about 9-11, and suggests that it was a massive false flag operation—that is, an American covert operation publicly blamed on foreign terrorists.

The movement’s supporters ask us to think about what it would mean if their claims of a conspiracy were true. This is fair enough, but they rarely ask what it would mean if their claims are wrong. They probably don’t like to think about what the answer would be. If their claims are unfounded, this would mean that a large segment of the Bush administration’s critics, most of them on the left, have wasted a lot of time and energy chasing their own tails instead of really challenging the regime. It would mean that they had severely compromised their own credibility, and, in the eyes of the public, the credibility of the entire anti-war movement for decades to come. It would mean that the 9-11 truth movement has been the anti-war movement’s Trojan Horse.

When we’re walking on fragile ice, we need to tread carefully. Unfortunately, the 9-11 truth movement is stomping with reckless abandon, often making unsubstantiated claims and disregarding evidence that doesn’t fit with its agenda.

Let’s take some of the examples I raised above. The movement often claims that the planes could have been easily intercepted by the combat-ready aircraft at Andrews Air Force Base. This would be true if and only if Andrews was ready to scramble its jets. In a debate with David Ray Griffin on the May 26, 2004 edition of Democracy Now, Chip Berlet argued that a military unit is “combat ready” if it’s prepared to enter combat with 24 to 72 hours notice, rather than at the drop of a hat, and “there is no evidence that there were jet aircraft fueled up, warmed up, ready to go at Andrews with fighter pilots sitting in a ready room ready to take off.”

Building 7 explained

The movement also claims that blasts caused by controlled demolitions are the only way to explain Building 7’s collapse. The leftist news magazine Counterpunch had Manuel Garcia, a physicist and engineer, look into this matter. He concludes that “The blast of hot debris from WTC 1 kindled fires in WTC 7 and caused an emergency power system to feed the burning to the point of building collapse. One of the building’s major bridging supports was heated to the point of exhaustion by the burning of an abundant store of hydrocarbon fuel.” Garcia compared the overall effect to that of an oil well fire beneath a burning bridge.

I could go on, but I think you get my point. These are supposedly two of the most damning pieces of evidence the movement can muster, and they blow apart like dandelion fluff in a strong breeze. Maybe I haven’t looked hard enough, but so far I haven’t found any argument put forward by the movement that stands up to sustained scrutiny.

The simplist explanation

There’s another reason to be wary of the movement, however. Its positions often violate a principle of critical thinking known as Ockham’s Razor. This principle states that the explanation for any given phenomenon should make as few assumptions as possible, “shaving off” those assumptions that don’t make any observable difference in the predictions of the hypothesis or theory used to explain the phenomena. In other words, the simplest explanations are usually the best ones, provided they’re comprehensive enough to account for the things they’re trying to explain.

George Monbiot uses Ockham’s Razor to dissect the movement in an article for the February 20, 2007 edition of The Guardian. He argues that to believe the movement’s claims, we’d have to assume that the Bush administration can perform miracles: “It could blast the Pentagon with a cruise missile while persuading hundreds of onlookers that they saw a plane. It could wire every floor of the twin towers with explosives without attracting attention and prime the charges (though planes had plowed through the middle of the sequence) to drop each tower in a perfectly timed collapse. It could make Flight 93 disappear into thin air, and somehow ensure that the relatives of the passengers collaborated with the deception. It could recruit tens of thousands of conspirators to participate in these great crimes and induce them all to have kept their mouths shut, forever.” Monbiot writes that the movement asks us to “believe that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their pals are all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-powerful, despite the fact that they were incapable of faking either weapons of mass destruction or any evidence at Ground Zero that Saddam Hussein was responsible.”

I can easily believe that the gang of war profiteers, ideologues, and criminals in the Bush administration used 9-11 as an excuse to erect a police state and embark on wars of imperial aggression. I have no doubt that if they could significantly advance their goals by staging a false flag operation that would kill 3,000 people on American soil and create massive property damage, they wouldn’t hesitate to do so. Having said this, I don’t believe they can do the impossible. As despicable as they are, they’re neither gods nor demons. They don’t have the superhuman powers necessary to pull this off. If they had these powers, they wouldn’t have failed so often at so many other things. Their repeated blunders show that they’re as fallible as we are.

Sometimes, you can step through a looking glass into an inverted world. Other times, you just get a bloody nose and a broken mirror. Perhaps the conspiratorial world the 9-11 truth movement is gazing upon is only the shattered reflection of its own lacerated face.


Poster Comment:

2056:

"It was a conspiracy....inside job...explosives in the towers...remote-controlled airplanes..."

Sure, gramps, whatever."

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: YertleTurtle (#0)

There are several things wrong with Michael's thinking.

First, the events of 9-11 melded so perfectly with military exercises on that day that the odds of it NOT being an inside job are beyond 'reasonable doubt'.

Why did the Bush Administration block investigation and then when the pressure became too great, he established a commission to look at it - without assigning blame to anyone? Add to that, the fact that everybody in his administration repeatedly lied about WMD in Iraq. Supposedly there was a case against Afghanistan although in hindsight (and with consideration for the oil pipeline and failed negotiations with the Taliban and how fast we bailed out of there - before the job was done) that case is very weak also.

To say that it was in inside job doesn't imply that the entire federal government was in on it. There had to be insiders who knew the entire plan for the 4 (at least 4) military exercises that were going on that day. They had to have inside knowledge of the communications systems between the FAA and NMCC because that line went dead after the FAA official started it up.

The biggest problem is that the government was not honest with us and the media participated in the cover-up. And not only that, but the government (FCC) attempted to allow further consolidation of the media even though the media is failing in their one responsibility (for the priviledge of being able to broadcast) to the public which is to provide information the American people need to have to keep our republic.

The actions of Bush after 9-11 were incongruent with a true outside threat. He not only didn't clamp down on our borders, he signed the SPP Agreement to erase our borders with Mexico and to open up our nation for a gut shot - to the heartland.

Further, he signed the Trade Agreement with India which was a torpedo to our economy - for now and into the future for as far as the eye can see.

So while the 9-11 truth movement may not have every detail correct, and there are most certainly disinformers in the crowd misdirecting and misleading, there are enough honest researchers who have done enough outstanding work, to call into question the entire 'official version' of the 9-11 story. And given the fact that the government is ignoring all of it, leads to the only conclusion possible - Guilty on the question of "Was 9-11 an inside job".

eyeswideoopen  posted on  2007-03-04   18:42:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: eyeswideoopen (#1)

So while the 9-11 truth movement may not have every detail correct, and there are most certainly disinformers in the crowd misdirecting and misleading, there are enough honest researchers who have done enough outstanding work, to call into question the entire 'official version' of the 9-11 story. And given the fact that the government is ignoring all of it, leads to the only conclusion possible - Guilty on the question of "Was 9-11 an inside job".

outstanding!

christine  posted on  2007-03-04   18:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: YertleTurtle, ALL (#0)

Unfortunately, the 9-11 truth movement is stomping with reckless abandon, often making unsubstantiated claims and disregarding evidence that doesn’t fit with its agenda.

I don't think anyone around here is going to listen to this advice. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-06   1:29:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: YertleTurtle (#0)

What if 9-11 truth movement is wrong?

Then even at face value 9/11 proves that FEDGOV is the enemy of the people and that the entire US military is useless and should be disbanded barring the Coast Guard.

"Oh, 3,000 proles died. Yawn. Back to the pork barrel spending."

"Osama who? Never heard of the guy. Now excuse me while I arrest someone for trying to sneak a water bottle on a plane."

"If Sauds were the bulk of the hijackers, then why are we invading Afghanistan and Iraq and putting Iran in the cross hairs? What did they have to do with the 9/11 attacks?...what do you mean DHS watchlist...hey, I have rights...wait now, I'm an "enemy combatant" all of a sudden?"

"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.

Pissed Off Janitor  posted on  2007-03-06   1:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: YertleTurtle (#0)

Total Bullshit ... all they need to do is release the fucking pictures captured by hundreds of cameras at OKC, the Pentagon and WTC. I was in the 37th ARRS (37th Air Rescue and Recovery Squadron) and our protocol was the same as NORADS. The pilots and crews of Alert Ready Aircraft know the drill, and there aren't any variations or excuses.

If anyone thinks that 19 sand niggers in a cave hijacked 4 commercial jetliners and flew them around for an hour and a half without an interceptor having opportunity to make eye contact with the pilots of the hijacked craft they're simply uninformed or stupid. Unless ordered to stand down, protocol rules the actions of alert status personnel, no questions asked. Washington D.C. is the highest priority security zone in the universe.

Not one of the commercial flights contained the name of an arab passenger on its manifest. Not one !!! Did all of these passport carrying camel jockeys get onboard claiming to be O'Brians, Sullivans or Finnegans ???

Why did "NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR Condoleeza Rice say "we had no idea that arab terrorists would consider using commercial jetliners as missiles" ??? That's absurd, numerous countries and intel agencies had reported potential attacks by commercial jets. Is she the result of outcome based education or just another step and fetchit negroe like Colin Powell ???

And, by the way you left out a few influential members of PNAC like Dov Zakheim (Jew), Richard Perle (Jew), Robert Kagan (Jew), Wm Kristol (Jew) and Jeb Bush. Dubya was the trojan horse that brought these felons in unannounced with the exception of Cheney. The combinations assembled in PNAC are Nazi-fascists and Jewish-communists. Here's a more complete list, and note that Booz-Allen is a CIA front organization where Dov Zakheim relocated after he left the DOD that happened to be missing 3 TRILLION DOLLARS.

Members

Many of the organization's ideas, and its members, are associated with the neoconservative movement. PNAC, at one point, had seven full-time staff members in addition to its board of directors. It now has one full-time staffer.

Current members include William Kristol, Robert Kagan, Bruce P. Jackson, Mark Gerson, Randy Scheunemann, Ellen Bork, Gary Schmitt, Thomas Donnelly, and Reuel Marc Gerecht.[3]

Former members include prominent members of the Republican Party and the Bush Administration, including Richard Armitage, William J. Bennett, Jeb Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Zalmay Khalilzad, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Richard Perle, former U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz.

Other former members include:

Gary Bauer, former presidential candidate, president of American Values James B. Borow, former deputy director of the NSA, co-founder of the Illinois Center for Core Values Rudy Boschwitz, former US Senator from Minnesota Eliot A. Cohen, professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University Steve Forbes, multi-millionaire publisher of Forbes Magazine, former presidential candidate Aaron Friedberg, director of the Center of International Studies Frank Gaffney, columnist, founder of Center for Security Policy Fred Ikle, Center for Strategic and International Studies Jeane Kirkpatrick, former U.S. ambassador Charles Krauthammer, conservative columnist Christopher Maletz Daniel McKivergan Norman Podhoretz, Hudson Institute Dan Quayle, former vice-president Stephen Rosen, Beton Michael Kaneb Professor of National Security and Military Affairs, Harvard University Henry Rowen, former president of Rand Corporation Abram Shulsky, former Director of Office of Special Plans Vin Weber, Minnesota congressman George Weigel, political commentator R. James Woolsey, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency for President Bill Clinton, vice-president at Booz Allen Hamilton.

http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

Any bullshit reference made to the Pentagon missing aircraft has to beg the question ... where were the anti-aircraft batteries, radar images and where are the fucking photographs from the myriad of cameras in and around the Pentagon ?????

No (nearly indestructible) Black boxes found ... just a paper passport. Nonsense.

Odigo (an Israeli Internet MOSSAD front Company) sends e-mails 2 hours before the 1st building is struck warning their friends to get out ... good guess or inside (MOSSAD) knowledge ?

The author of this drivel must be on prozac, zoloff or suffering alzheimers. Three frigging buildings collapse into their own footprint due to "fire", for the first time in recorded history, conveniently on the same day at the same place, one of them being "pulled" at the instruction of the owner that would reap a substantial insurance settlement ... 3-7 BILLION. (Gimme a frigging break man, you can't possibly be this stupid or naieve.)

America's history is replete with false flag ops as lead-ins to war ... the Maine, Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania, and Pearl Harbor (allowed to happen), just to name a few. Then recall that an FBI informant testified and provided a tape recording that showed FBI complicity in WTC I. Now, Terry Nichols testifies that FBI Agent Larry Potts was Tim McVeigh's handler and now FBI Deputy Director Danny Coulson is calling for a re-investigation of the OKC Bombing while admitting that Andreas Strassmeir was an intelligence agent and informant working with at least three other government agents at Elohim City for the purposes of implicating militia personnel in the OKC Bombing.

How much evidence do you need ??? Is it possible that these Harvard educated motherfuckers are so inept that "oops" we did it again is a plausible contention ???

I say fuck these murdering bastards. They have billions of dollars to operate their intelligence agencies, thousands of agents, the best educations and weapons money can buy ... but expect us to forgive and forget while they murder us by the thousands. This tripe is pathetic.

The next time this author considers letting these low-life, bottom-feeding, scum sucking, pus bags off the hook for their never ending crime spree, he should try to visualize 14 year old Sammy Weaver's murder, being shot in the back by a camoflauge wearing U.S. Marshal hiding in the woods that ambushed a kid, or Vicki Weaver having her brain splattered all over their small cabin floor while holding her baby in her arms by a shit eating, murdering fed named Lon Horiuchi, or consider the 25 kids burned to death at WACO, attacked by helicopters, tanks and M-50's used by Delta Force in violation of Posse Comitatus, after being falsely accused of operating a meth lab.

If all of the above incidents are mistakes then I say it's time for us to make a few. This author can kiss my red, white and blue ass !

This article belongs in the "you gotta REALLY be shitting me file" !!!!!

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

noone222  posted on  2007-03-06   4:55:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BeAChooser (#3)

Yeah, the believers of the official conspiracy theory will stop at nothing to see that the real perps are brought to justice.


I don't want to be a martyr, I want to win! - Me

Critter  posted on  2007-03-06   5:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: YertleTurtle (#0)

Here's some inconvenient factual info !!!

9/11 Security Courtesy of Marvin Bush

Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne] According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

The company lists as government clients "the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force, and the Department of Justice," in projects that "often require state-of- the-art security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites."

Stratesec (Securacom) differs from other security companies which separate the function of consultant from that of service provider. The company defines itself as a "single-source" provider of "end-to-end" security services, including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards.

The Dulles Internation contract is another matter. Dulles is regarded as "absolutely a sensitive airport," according to security consultant Wayne Black, head of a Florida-based security firm, due to its location, size, and the number of international carriers it serves.

Black has not heard of Stratesec, but responds that for one company to handle security for both airports and airlines is somewhat unusual. It is also delicate for a security firm serving international facilities to be so interlinked with a foreign-owned company: "Somebody knew somebody," he suggested, or the contract would have been more closely scrutinized.

As Black points out, "when you [a company] have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." And if another company is linked with the security company, then "What's on your computer is on their computer." [American Reporter]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heightened WTC Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed. [NY NewsDay]

Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down

On the weekend of 9/8, 9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up... "Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower." [WingTV]

Marvin Bush was in New York on 9/11

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both WTC 6 and WTC 7 were evacuated within minutes of Flight 11 striking WTC 1 - this didn't happen in the twin towers. There were no evacuation announcements in WTC 1 following the plane strike, and workers were encouraged to stay in their building...

Dan Baumbach - WTC 1 Survivor

Dan Baumbach, 24, a software engineer from Merrick, was stunned to find that building officials in One World Trade Center were telling workers not to evacuate even after the first jet struck.

"You can try it, but it's at your own risk," he quoted one official as telling a group of 100 people on the 75th floor. Many chose to follow that advice; Baumbach continued his descent from the 80th floor and survived, but only after braving the debris that fell when the neighboring tower collapsed.

"The reason we got out was because we didn't listen," he said. [Newsday]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the neighboring south tower people were also evacuating, but an announcement over the PA system tells them their building is secure and they can return to their desks..." WMV video download (43kB)

Stanley Praimnath - WTC 2 Survivor

'If they had continued on and exited the building, all of their lives would have been spared. As it was, that's not the way it happened.

"As soon as we reached the concourse level, the security guard stopped us and said, 'Where are you going?'

Stanley explained about seeing the fire in Tower One. According to Stanley, the guard said, "Oh, that was just an accident. Two World Trade is secured. Go back to your office."' [Mercola]

Jackasses With Bullhorns: "WTC 2 is secure!"

More accounts...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Today it is still a mystery why no-one in the towers reached the roof..." WMV video download (145kB)

The solution to the mystery is simple - the roof doors were locked, as were many stairwell doors.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WTC surveillance tapes feared missing Imagine my surprise...

Surveillance tapes and maintenance logs are among the missing evidence as investigators try to figure out why the World Trade Center collapsed, federal officials said Monday. ... The lost records probably contain vital information that could help answer questions, Sunder said. Investigators are trying to locate copies of many destroyed documents from the building's owners and city agencies. http://[FortWayne.com]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

See also: The 9/11 WTC Collapses: An Audio-Video Analysis

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Really Happened

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

noone222  posted on  2007-03-06   5:27:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: noone222 (#7)

Statagy is long term planning whereas Tactics,like 911 are used to carry it out.

Peace is war, freedom is slavery.

"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2007-03-06   7:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: YertleTurtle (#0)

What if 9-11 truth movement is wrong?

This statement makes the assumption that the government is right.

Please let us know the last time they were right/honest about *anything*?

Thanks in advance for not answering.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-03-06   7:44:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Jethro Tull (#9) (Edited)

“The blast of hot debris from WTC 1 kindled fires in WTC 7 and caused an emergency power system to feed the burning to the point of building collapse. One of the building’s major bridging supports was heated to the point of exhaustion by the burning of . . .

Yertle is a sick man.

They should have come right out and admitted the fact that this building was intentionally dropped. It might have staunched the hemmorage in the official story.

I simply cannot look at this collapse and see how a huge asymmetrical wound on one side of this building causes the whole works to drop neatly like a hot rock.

Wanna bet "For the third time today" cost Dan Rather his career with CBS?

Money trumps . . . uh . . . . peace . . sometimes. - GW Bush

randge  posted on  2007-03-06   8:21:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Critter (#6)

Yeah, the believers of the official conspiracy theory will stop at nothing to see that the real perps are brought to justice.

Yes. I am growing tired of hearing Dems constantly ridicule Bush for not getting OBL. Kerry, with his devastating ads against Bush on TeeVee that asked where OBL- the butcher of 3000 innocents- was and why he hadn't been captured 4 years later? Remember those ads? Or now- when Air America has that daily day count that OBL has been free since 9/11. Or the never ending stream of Dems demanding the W get OBL and bring him to justice. Or what about our liberal media . . . that runs highly biased stories about why OBL hasn't been caught in six years since 9/11 almost every single day! Yeah- the believers in the official 9/11 story are just so concerned about getting OBL and bringing him to justice. They of course want an open trial as well- to showcase the ironclad case against OBL and his "Al Queda" network that did 9/11.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-06   8:50:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: YertleTurtle, noone222 (#0)

If anyone thinks that 19 sand niggers in a cave hijacked 4 commercial jetliners and flew them around for an hour and a half without an interceptor having opportunity to make eye contact with the pilots of the hijacked craft they're simply uninformed or stupid. Unless ordered to stand down, protocol rules the actions of alert status personnel, no questions asked. Washington D.C. is the highest priority security zone in the universe.

Not one of the commercial flights contained the name of an arab passenger on its manifest. Not one !!! Did all of these passport carrying camel jockeys get onboard claiming to be O'Brians, Sullivans or Finnegans ???

that deserved a repeat.

christine  posted on  2007-03-06   9:10:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: randge (#10)

They should have come right out and admitted the fact that this building was intentionally dropped. It might have staunched the hemmorage in the official story.

good point.

christine  posted on  2007-03-06   9:13:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: noone222, ALL (#5)

I could comment about many things in your post, but let's just do this one:

Not one of the commercial flights contained the name of an arab passenger on its manifest. Not one !!

This isn't true ...

*************

http://www.911myths.com/html/no_hijackers_on_the_manifests.html

No Hijackers on the Manifests

The story...

Another problem in the official account is that, although we are told that four or five of the alleged hijackers were on each of the four flights, no proof of this claim has been provided. The story, of course, is that they did not force their way onto the planes but were regular, ticketed passengers. If so, their names should be on the flight manifests. But the flight manifests that have been released contain neither the names of the alleged hijackers nor any other Arab names... http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Myth-Reality-Griffin30mar06.htm

Our take...

There are several arguments used to advance the “no hijackers on the passenger manifests” case, but they’re not nearly as definitive as their proponents like to pretend. David Ray Griffin’s assertion above, for instance, is footnoted with this explanation:

The flight manifest for AA 11 that was published by CNN can be seen at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA11.victims.html. The manifests for the other flights can be located by simply changing that part of the URL. The manifest for UA 93, for example, is at http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/ua93.victims.html . http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Myth-Reality-Griffin30mar06.htm

There’s an obvious clue here in the URL, which tells us it’s a “victims” list. Is it really surprising that the suspected hijackers wouldn’t be included? And in fact if you look on the site you’ll find CNN specifically say those names have been left out.

Further, the CNN lists aren’t an official manifest anyway. They were compiled from press reports, not names obtained directly from the airlines. We’ve more on this here.

When we’ve made this point, a common response has been: why? Why did CNN have to cobble together a list in this way, why didn’t they get the details direct from the airlines? Look at what one of the airlines says, though, and there’s an obvious answer: a UAL press release says that “At the request of the victims' families, a number of names have been withheld from release”. The same press release does list many passenger names, however (see here or here).

If the airlines wanted to contact family members before releasing names, then this would also explain why the hijackers details would be held back. It would plainly take longer to get in touch with citizens of other countries, than the families of Americans.

At least one newspaper reported that it had obtained the manifests from the two planes hijacked from Boston, though, and the hijackers did appear on the lists. They even printed their seat numbers. See the details here.

This early release of information tends to be ignored, though, in favour of other evidence showing “no Arab names on the passenger lists”. One commonly-quoted example was produced by Thomas Olmsted, who filed a Freedom of Information Act Request for the names of the Flight 77 victims. A list eventually arrived which did not include the names of hijackers, which he claimed indicated that they were not aboard (see an article here). But he’s wrong. Here’s why.

Olmsted also tries to compare his list with the CNN list to show there are inconsistencies. And that doesn’t stand up, either.

Further, journalist and author Terry McDermott reports that he obtained passenger lists from the FBI while researching a book, and they did contain the hijackers names. Read more details and see the full lists here.

And the complete passenger lists have subsequently been released as part of an exhibit at the Moussaoui trial, where a Flash applet details exactly who sat where, who made phone calls, and more. We’ve uploaded it to this page, though beware, in total these are more than 15MB in size so you’ll need a broadband connection.

Anyway, if you just want to see the lists without waiting around, or you don’t have the Flash player installed anyway, then try this page of images instead.

************

ROTFLOL! Do you folks EVER check anything you post?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-06   20:54:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: noone222, ALL (#7)

I think this is a suitable response ...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-06   20:58:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: christine, YertleTurtle, noone222, ALL (#12)

noone222 - Not one of the commercial flights contained the name of an arab passenger on its manifest. Not one !!! Did all of these passport carrying camel jockeys get onboard claiming to be O'Brians, Sullivans or Finnegans ???

that deserved a repeat.

Too bad it's FALSE. See post #14. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-06   21:00:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: randge, YT (#10)

Yertle is a sick man.

He's right on lots of stuff, but his faith in government when it gets its war boots on amazes me. Pearl Harbor, the Gulf of Tonkin, and countless other events that have propelled us into war were lies. His faith in this neocon bunch and his failure to discuss the individual posts people take the time to add to his articles is telling.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-03-06   21:00:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: BeAChooser BeALoser (#14) (Edited)

But the flight manifests that have been released contain neither the names of the alleged hijackers nor any other Arab names...

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-Myth-Reality- Griffin30mar06.htm

I have the passenger lists and "KNOW" there are no arabic names on them. Your article agrees with me ... and simply tries to explain away the facts with spin.

The bottom line is you're a dis-info puke. If the authorities were at all interested in truth they would have provided evidence to support their wild conspiracy theory of arabic cave dwellers conducting 9-11.

But we are left with a miraculous passport, and some articles left in a car at the airport. Bullshit !

"Get thee hence satan" ... you little punk assed bitch !

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

noone222  posted on  2007-03-07   6:29:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: All, noone222 (#14)

Since noone222 didn't respond to post #14, one can only conclude he is one of the fine FD4UM residents who has bozo'd himself where my posts are concerns. Guess he's afraid of the truth?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-07   11:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: noone222, ALL (#18)

Oh pardon me. I didn't notice that you had responded. Now if you'd known how to properly ping me to your post, maybe I wouldn't have missed it.

I have the passenger lists and "KNOW" there are no arabic names on them.

You sure? Where did you get them? Provide a URL to your source.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-07   11:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: YertleTurtle (#0) (Edited)

I could go on, but I think you get my point.

Yeah I get the point all right, you are freaking moron.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2007-03-07   11:25:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: YertleTurtle, RickyJ, ALL (#21)

RickyJ to YertleTurtle - Yeah I get the point all right, you are freaking moron.

Don't feel bad, YT, because you are in good company.

RickyJ thinks ANYONE who doesn't see that there were bombs in the WTC towers is a moron.

That includes all the structural engineers, demolition experts, seismologists and macro-world physicists in the world.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-07   11:30:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: randge (#10)

Rather didn't seemed shocked the building came down at all. How could he, numerous news organizations announced that it collapsed over 20 minutes before it actually happened. Rather nonchalantly throws the "well placed dynamite" comment out there like it is no big deal. I think it was his way of telling everyone he knew how they were really brought down without actually admitting it or drawing too much attention to his remarks.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2007-03-07   11:38:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: BeAChooser (#22)

RickyJ thinks ANYONE who doesn't see that there were bombs in the WTC towers is a moron.

You got that right!

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2007-03-07   11:38:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: BeAChooser (#22)

RickyJ thinks ANYONE who doesn't see that there were bombs in the WTC is a moron.

I've had him on Bozo from the beginning.

Even I have my limits for stupidity. When it reaches "can't be fixed" I Bozo them.

I think I Bozo'd him after about, oh, ten minutes.

"We become what we behold. We shape our tools and thereafter our tools shape us." -- Marshall McLuhan, after Alexander Pope and William Blake.

YertleTurtle  posted on  2007-03-07   11:39:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: YertleTurtle (#25)

good god almighty, bob, you're allying with BeAChooser? hahahahahaha. why is it you refuse to debate the issue and "choose" instead to simply malign "the truthers?"

christine  posted on  2007-03-07   12:08:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: YertleTurtle, *9-11* (#0) (Edited)

What if 9-11 truth movement is wrong?

The one consistent characteristic that defines the truth movement is that they all want a legitimate investigation and answers to significant questions.

Please explain the downside of a legitimate investigation if the truth movement is wrong.

Consider the alternative.

What if the 9-11 truth movement is right?

The one consistent characteristic that defines the opponents of the truth movement is that they oppose a legitimate,independent investigation.

Can you fully appreciate what it means to our way of life if the truth movement is right? Can you fully appreciate what that makes the opponents of the truth movement if a legitimate investigation revealed U.S. government complicity in the attack?

Keep in mind there is evidence available to the public now that establishes beyond any reasonable doubt that elements within the U.S. government organized, planned and executed the OKC bombing plot and the mass murder of 168 Americans.

honway  posted on  2007-03-07   12:11:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: YertleTurtle, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#0)

What if 9-11 truth movement is wrong?

Removing the obvious 'establishment' propaganda, disinformationists, psyops agents and a few genuine nut-jobs, the rest of the "Truth Movement" can't be wrong, just by the elimination of the impossible in the 'official' accounts of 9-11.

9-11 was, all too obviously, an inside-job!

Was there supposed to be a legitimate question, here?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-03-07   14:03:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: honway (#27)

Please explain the downside of a legitimate investigation if the truth movement is wrong.

Consider the alternative.

What if the 9-11 truth movement is right?

The one consistent characteristic that defines the opponents of the truth movement is that they oppose a legitimate,independent investigation.

Very suspicious, even if you did not have a single fact or piece of evidence to the contrary.

Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)

robin  posted on  2007-03-07   14:10:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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