[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Mossad Comment on Peace with Palestinians

Boost Your Stem Cells And Live Longer With These 3 Beverages

Southern Girl Cheap Taser

Uruguay Is Considered Less Corrupt Than The US & Spain

Cryptocurrency Thefts Surge to $1.38 Billion in First Half of 2024

Senate Joins House in Proposal for Automatic Draft Registration

Blumenthal urges USPS to kill next weeks stamp price hike

Equal Rights Until It's About Men

Bidenomics? Business Bankruptcies Jump 34% In First Half Of 2024

Illinois Is A Drag On US Economy, Continues To Be A 'Taker' From Federal Govt; New Report Shows

Bodyguard For Anti-Gun Supreme Court Justice Sotomayor Shoots At Would-Be Carjacker

Germany: Nigerian migrant grabs 9-year-old boy and stabs 2 police officers, immediately released by the courts

Housing inventory up 40% yoy. Signals in construction activity are mirroring the period leading up to the 2008 crash.

Poll shows 44% of Americans skipping summer vacations due to 25% rise in air travel costs.

uh....

Funny Short Video

Iran Paid Anti-Israel Protesters in America

The 5 Anti-Aging Spices That Help Heal The Body & Reduce Inflammation

Rubio Reveals U.S. Taxpayers Funding Chinese Military Experiments, Will Introduce Bill To Fight It

2000 Doctors

THE BAR IS OPEN!

Canadians Begin Hiring Guardian Angels to Protect Hospital Patients from Euthanasia

Mel Gibson Writes Open Letter in Support to Archbishop Vigan:

The Nationwide 500,000 EV Charger Charade

Kiev continues its practice of nuclear blackmail in the Russian city of Energodar

Department of Interior shuts down millions of acres of Alaska to all oil, gas and mining activity

Dusseldorf court rules far-right AfD members cannot legally possess firearms in Germany.

7924 Funny Laugh Out Loud Hilarious Memes Jokes Cartoons [Goof Thread]

BBC Chooses Racially Diverse Cast To Play Characters In Drama About 1066 Battle Of Hastings

Biden's 10 different excuses for why he screwed up his debate with President Trump.


War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Four Unspeakable Truths
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/120404
Published: Mar 8, 2007
Author: Jacob Weisberg
Post Date: 2007-03-08 07:38:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 601
Comments: 96

What politicians won't admit about Iraq

When it comes to Iraq, there are two kinds of presidential candidates. The disciplined ones, like Hillary Clinton, carefully avoid acknowledging reality. The more candid, like John McCain and Barack Obama, sometimes blurt out the truth, but quickly apologize.

For many presidential aspirants, the first unspeakable truth is simply that the war was a mistake. This issue came to a head recently with Hillary Clinton's obstinate refusal to acknowledge that voting to give President Bush the authority to invade Iraq was the wrong thing to do. Though fellow Democrats John Edwards and Christopher Dodd have managed to say they erred in voting for the 2002 war resolution, Clinton is joined by Joe Biden and a full roster of Republicans in her inability to disgorge the M-word. Perhaps most absurdly, Chuck Hagel has called Bush's 21,500-troop "surge" the biggest blunder since Vietnam without ever saying that the war itself was the big blunder and that he favored it.

Reasons for refusing to admit that the war itself was a mistake are surprisingly similar across party lines. It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level. Specific political calculations help to explain their individual decisions. Hillary, for instance, worries that confessing her failure will make it easier for hawks to savage her if she gets the nomination. But at bottom, the impulse is always the same. Politicians are stubborn, afraid of looking weak, and fearful that any admission of error will be cast as flip-flopping and inconsistency.

A second truth universally unacknowledged is that American soldiers being killed, grotesquely maimed, and then treated like whining freeloaders at Walter Reed Hospital are victims as much as "heroes." John Kerry was the first to violate this taboo when he was still a potential candidate last year. Kerry appeared to tell a group of California college students that it sucks to go and fight in Iraq. A variety of conservative goons instantly denounced Kerry for disrespecting the troops. An advanced sufferer of Senatorial Infallibility Syndrome, Kerry resisted retracting his comment for a while, but eventually regretted what he called a "botched joke" about President Bush.

Lost in the debate about whether Kerry meant what came out of his mouth was the fact that what he said was largely true. Americans who attend college and have good employment options after graduation are unlikely to sign up for free tours of the Sunni Triangle. People join the military for a variety of reasons, of course, but since the Iraq war turned ugly, the all-volunteer Army has been lowering educational standards, raising enlistment bonuses, and looking past criminal records. The lack of better choices is a larger and larger factor in the choice of military service. Our troops in Iraq may not see themselves as cannon fodder or victims of presidential misjudgments, but that doesn't mean they're not.

Reality No. 3, closely related to No. 2 and following directly from No. 1, is that the American lives lost in Iraq have been lives wasted. Barack Obama crossed this boundary on his first trip to Iowa as an announced candidate when he declared at a rally, "We ended up launching a war that should have never been authorized and should have never been waged and to which we have now spent $400 billion and have seen over 3,000 lives of the bravest young Americans wasted." With lightning speed, Obama said he had misspoken and apologized to military families.

John McCain used the same proscribed term when he announced his candidacy on Late Night With David Letterman last week. "We've wasted a lot of our most precious treasure, which is American lives." This was a strange admission, given McCain's advocacy of a surge bigger than Bush's. In any case, McCain followed Obama by promptly regretting his choice of words. (The patriotically correct term for losing parts of your body in a pointless war in Mesopotamia is, of course, "sacrifice.") These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

A fourth and final near-certainty, which is in some ways the hardest for politicians to admit, is that America is losing or has already lost the Iraq war. The United States is the strongest nation in the history of the world and does not think of itself as coming in second in two-way contests. When it does so, it is slow to accept that it has been beaten. American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured. Even today, American politicians tend not to describe Vietnam as a straightforward defeat. Something similar is happening in Iraq, where the most that leaders typically say is that we "risk" losing and must not do so.

Democrats avoid the truth about the tragedy in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or unsupportive of the troops. Republicans avoid it for fear of being blamed for the disaster or losing defense and patriotism as cards to play against Democrats. Politicians on both sides believe that acknowledging the unpleasant truth will weaken them and undermine those still attempting to persevere on our behalf. But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2161385/fr/rss/

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 36.

#5. To: leveller, ALL (#0)

American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured.

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:03:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BeAChooser, Burkeman1 (#5) (Edited)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Oye vay. And why am I not surprised by your BOT cookie cutter reponse.

Uh huh - the Vietnam War was lost by the librul media and anti-war movement and if only those 2 thingies did not exist, we would have whooped the North Vietnamese asses and their communist Chinese benefactors' asses something fierce. We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home, but victory was at hand if only we had stayed loooonger.

And here's the rub, by now we'd be engaging in free trade with a thriving democracy if it weren't for the librul press and anti-war groups - Ooops. We are engaging in free trade with Vietnam now and our gov't could care less whether the Vietnamese gov't is comprised of communists or pink purple eaters. But it mattered 40 years ago because of...fill in the blanks, BAC...I'll give you a hint...the missing words have the initials, M-I-C.

Get a clue, BAC - an ill begotten war ( faux Gulf of Tonkin incident)has bad results. Similarly it applies to the Iraq War. Or here's something simpler for your mind to ponder as it applies to our various wars for lies - "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

P.S. Have you ever fought in a war apart from a war of words in cyberspace, BAC?

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   14:19:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: scrapper2, ALL (#6)

We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:46:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: BeAChooser (#8)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- myths.net/buitin.htm

The important part is:

"Q: What about the results? A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was. "

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   15:05:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: historian1944, BeAChooser, Burkeman1, leveller, Ricky J (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

a. Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter wrap themselves with glee using the words of Colonel Bui Tin and parading the reason he gives for America missing out on winning one heck of noble war as the last word on the subject - like this Colonel Bui Tin is the official oracle on the Vietnam War..

What Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Mark Levine fail to tell everyone is that Colonel Bui Tin is a former communist "true believer" recently turned disenchanted vocal anti-communist dissent who lives in exile in Paris. Hmmm...let's think about the reasons why Colonel Bui Tin would be motivated to say what he said in an interview with the Wall Street Journal ( HA!)...capitalism symbol par excellence....

Here's a little background on the good colonel - and by the way he was a communist army journalist during the Vietnam War and he served on general staff of the NV army so knows the value of good propaganda - he stepped into a moment of history by chance due to circumstance and not because he was an experienced battle hardened war officer for the NV.

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

Also consider the fact that the Vietnamese had a history of fighting outsiders for long stretches of time - 1000 years against the Chinese dynasties - how long were we prepared to bleed in Vietnam and fight for its "independence" or whatever we thought we were doing there.

They didn't want us there. They did not like the corrupt S. Vietnamese gov't we were supporting. We left when we did because we should not been been in that stupid war in the first place. What a waste of blood and treasure and an example of our shameful use chemical weapons against civilian populations. That war has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

But worse, we did not even learn a lesson from that grotesque mistake.

When GWB did his WTO thumping for communist Vietnam this January, I felt relieved that many of the parents who gave up their sons for that elective Vietnam war "to fight communism" were not alive to see our gov't sponsoring communist Vietnam into the WTO. Pathetic. Nor were they alive to read newly released documents that showed LBJ lied us into the war due to a faux Tonkin Incident.

Here's a little current info on Colonel Bui Tin.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/WR92/ASW-15.htm ( Human Rights Watch)

b. Here's some background info on new behind the scenes docs about the Vietnam War quagmire and also some info regarding what MacNamara said about the reasons why Vietnam and why this also so similar to the Iraq debacle.

http://newsaigonsanjose.blogspot.co m/

Nov. 17, 2005

"On the American wars in Vietnam and Iraq"

Newly-released secret documents reveal that the Bush administration is struggling with the same issues that faced the administration of Richard Nixon.

Full text of NYT article here - cut and paste the url:

http://www. >http://nytimes.com/2005/11/17/international/17nixon.html? ex=1173502800&en=9c5c9f67c421ed62&ei=5070

"Vietnam Archive Casts a Shadow Across Decades" Thom Shanker and David Stout

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16, 2005 - White House advisers convene secret sessions about the political dangers of revelations that American troops committed atrocities in the war zone, and about whether the president can delicately intervene in the investigation. In the face of an increasingly unpopular war, they wonder at the impact on support at home. The best way out of the war, they agree, is to prop up a new government that they hope can unite the fractured foreign land.

The National Archives and Records Administration on Wednesday released 50,000 pages of previously classified documents from the Nixon administration that reveal how all of that president's men wrestled with issues that eerily parallel problems facing the Bush administration.

There are many significant differences between the wars in Vietnam and in Iraq - a point that senior administration officials make at any opportunity. But in tone and content, the Nixon-era debate about the impact of that generation's war - and of war-crimes trials - on public support for the military effort and for White House domestic initiatives strikes many familiar chords.

As the Nixon administration was waging a war and trying to impose a peace in South Vietnam, it worried intensely about how the 1968 massacre at My Lai of South Vietnamese civilians by American troops would hurt the war effort, both at home and in Asia.

My Lai "could prove acutely embarrassing to the United States" and could affect the Paris peace talks, Defense Secretary Melvin R. Laird warned President Nixon. "Domestically, it will provide grist for the mills of antiwar activists," Mr. Laird said.

Documents show how the Nixon White House fretted over politics and perception, much as the Bush White House has done during the Iraq war, and that it feared that mistreatment of civilians could be ruinous to its image.

"The handling of this case to date has strictly observed the code of military justice," Henry A. Kissinger, then the national security adviser, wrote in a memo to the Nixon aide H. R. Haldeman. Mr. Kissinger said the court-martial of Lt. William L. Calley Jr., who was implicated in the massacre and ultimately convicted, would alleviate press concerns about a cover-up.

Moreover, President Nixon believed that images could be changed, as the presidential aide John R. Brown III wrote to Mr. Kissinger. "Secretary Laird's press is a measure of the good things a onetime hard-liner can earn by playing the dove for the liberal press," Mr. Brown wrote on Jan. 14, 1970.

With so many academic studies, popular histories and memoirs on the bookshelf - and more than seven million pages of Nixon documents released since 1986 by the National Archives in an ongoing declassification process - historians combing over the files on Wednesday said they were looking for golden needles in a haystack more than mining a previously unknown vein of precious metals.

The new release of documents included files on early American assessments of Israel's nuclear program, debates about supporting Pakistan during its war with India in 1971 and the superpower rivalry with Moscow.

Some of the Vietnam documents contain details about how the Nixon administration tried to prop up South Vietnam's president, Nguyen Van Thieu, behind the scenes while portraying him publicly as a courageous leader, as President Johnson had done.

In language that resonates with the positions of the Bush administration with regard to building a new government in Baghdad, the Nixon White House said in May 1969 that it wanted to establish in Vietnam "procedures for political choice that give each significant group a real opportunity to participate in the political life of the nation."

"What the United States wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing," said an internal White House planning-initiative memo. "What North Vietnam wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing. What is important is what the people of South Vietnam want for themselves."

The papers illustrate, too, how as late as 1969 American leaders really did not know very much about the psychology of North Vietnam - or, for that matter, about sentiments in the South.

In March 1969, while the Paris peace talks were under way, American officials worried about how strongly to react to a rocket attack on Saigon. Secretary of State William P. Rogers cabled American diplomats about the decision not to retaliate militarily against the North.

"Plainly, we shall need to have the most careful and continuing readings of the South Vietnamese temperature," Mr. Rogers wrote, reflecting concerns in Washington that the Saigon government would suspect it was being sold out.

Around that time, the State Department suggested that the American negotiator Henry Cabot Lodge soften his language in conveying American displeasure to the Hanoi delegation.

"We prefer this language not because it is less ambiguous than the original version but, on the contrary, because it is more ambiguous - and hence more flexible - as to our response," a State Department cable said.

That July, President Thieu fussed over Washington's editing of a speech he was to make recounting all the concessions that had been made to the Communists and calling again for general elections. A secret State Department wire to Saigon and Paris said an aide to Mr. Thieu, in describing his boss's annoyance, "used a phrase which, translated into English, comes out like 'Secretary Rogers has deflowered my speech.' "

President Nixon praised the July 11 speech as "a comprehensive, statesmanlike and eminently fair proposal for a political settlement in South Vietnam."

The documents show an internal debate in Washington over what effects the death of Ho Chi Minh, the North Vietnamese leader, in September 1969, would have.

Mr. Kissinger told the president that Ho's death would hurt North Vietnam's morale but would probably not soften its resolve. But a State Department cable to its diplomats around that time, when the department was headed by Mr. Kissinger's rival, Mr. Rogers, had a different perspective.

"We are, of course, uncertain ourselves of consequences of Ho's death," it read in part. "We are handicapped in our own analysis by paucity of good intelligence information on North Vietnamese intentions and internal politics."

During the summer and fall of 1969, a great effort was made by the Nixon White House to intervene in a military investigation of a group of Army Special Forces who had been accused of killing a suspected double agent in Nha Trang.

In a memorandum to Bryce Harlow, a Nixon aide, on Sept. 26, 1969, Mr. Kissinger counseled him about how to deal with the concerns of Congress. "The main substantive point you should make," Mr. Kissinger wrote, "is that the president is very concerned about the long-term implications of this case and that he is most anxious to dispose of it in a way which will do the least damage to our national security, the prestige and discipline of our armed services and to preserve our future freedom of action in the clandestine area."

"This is clearly a sign of things to come - and we are really going to be hit," Mr. Haldeman wrote to Mr. Kissinger, urging a quiet resolution. "Anything we can do - even at this late date?"

****The blogger who links to the NYT article says the following:***

The similarities are eerie. There are big differences to be sure. But note the similarities:

In 1995, former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the architect of the American war in Vietnam, looked back and listed the major reasons for the failure of U.S. foreign policy there.

Here are some of them:

--We misjudged the intention of our adversaries and we exaggerated the danger to the United States.

--We viewed the people and the leaders in terms of our own experience. We saw in them a thirst for and a determination to fight for freedom and democracy. We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

--We underestimated the power of nationalism to motive a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values – and we continue to do so today in many parts of the world.

--Our misjudgments of friend and foe alike reflected profound ignorance of the history, culture and politics of the people in the area and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

--We failed to recognize the limits of modern, high technology military equipment, forces and doctrine in confronting unconventional, highly motivated people's movements.

--We failed to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of the people from a totally different culture.

--We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement before we initiated the action.

--After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

--We did not recognize that neither our people nor its leaders are omniscient.

--We did not hold to the principle that US military action – other than in response to direct threats to our own security – should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces fully and not merely cosmetically, by the international community.

--We failed to understand that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems in which there is no immediate solution.

I am not the first to say this, but those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   17:03:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#24)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: historian1944, ALL (#34)

What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have?

Do a web browser search under the phrase "paper tiger".

For example:

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/papertiger.html "Al Qaeda and its global Islamic terrorist affiliates came to the conclusion that America's weakness stemmed from a post-Vietnam conviction that required future wars to be short, antiseptic and casualty free. Bin Laden summed up his perception of Americans in an interview with ABC News reporter John Miller, published in Esquire in 1998: “After leaving Afghanistan, the Muslim fighters headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized, more than before, that the American soldier was a paper tiger and after a few blows……would run in defeat.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins111601.shtml "Bin Laden and his planners were inspired by prior examples of United States retreat, most notably the defeat in Vietnam, but more proximately the U.S. withdrawal from Somalia in 1994 following the disastrous attempt to capture Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, and the pullout from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1984. The impression had grown that the U.S. was a paper tiger. American forces had a technological edge and massive firepower, but if a foe could inflict a bloody nose, the skittish American public would demand withdrawal, and politicians would hold hearings to place blame. As Syrian Foreign Minister Abdel Halim Khaddam said to American negotiators after the Beirut bombings, "The United States is short of breath. You can always wait them out."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2006/02/what_newly_released_al_qaeda_l_1.html "The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point has posted on its web site several al Qaeda-related documents that have been "captured in the course of operations supporting the GWOT." Two letters, dated September 30, 1993 and May 24, 1994, relate directly to al Qaeda operations in Somalia. The letters are from "Hassan al-Tajiki" to the "African Corps." Assuming their authenticity, the letters are consistent with the propaganda of bin Laden in the 1990s that Mogadishu and other events showed that America was "a paper tiger" and "a weak horse." He and his followers would use such imagery as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda, "the strong horse" in bin Laden's words, throughout the 1990s."

Here's one of those two letters: http://www.ctc.usma.edu/aq_600053-3.asp "the Somali experience confirmed the spurious nature of American power and that it has not recovered from the Vietnam complex. It fears getting bogged down in a real war that would reveal its psychological collapse at the level of personnel and leadership. Since Vietnam America has been seeking easy battles that are completely guaranteed."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:39:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 36.

#38. To: BeAChooser, historian1944, ALL (#36)

So the US is a paper tiger because the American people are not willing to have their children die in far off countries in wars that mean absolutley nothing to anyone but those in Washington DC? I tell you what. You let a country invade the United States and then we'll talk about a paper tiger.

You are the paper tiger BAC. You revel in war as long as you are sitting safe behind your computer in Podunk, USA.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08 19:53:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: BeAChooser (#36)

So the idea began in Vietnam that if things got difficult we would just leave. I'm not tracking with that exactly because we did spend 10 years there, and 58K lives before we finally decided to leave. I think that Beirut and Mogadishu would be the object lessons for the paper tiger idea(which seems to be what the National Review and Weekly Standard articles imply. For al Qaida purposes, couldn't it be said that the Reagan and Clinton administrations did more to support the paper tiger idea than Vietnam? It had been nearly a decade after the fall of Saigon before the Marine barracks was attacked in Beirut. It was nearly twenty years after the last helicopter out of Saigon before Mogadishu. In either case, we had the opportunity to dispel the "paper tiger" idea, but we chose not to.

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08 20:11:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 36.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]  [Register]