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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Four Unspeakable Truths
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/120404
Published: Mar 8, 2007
Author: Jacob Weisberg
Post Date: 2007-03-08 07:38:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 656
Comments: 96

What politicians won't admit about Iraq

When it comes to Iraq, there are two kinds of presidential candidates. The disciplined ones, like Hillary Clinton, carefully avoid acknowledging reality. The more candid, like John McCain and Barack Obama, sometimes blurt out the truth, but quickly apologize.

For many presidential aspirants, the first unspeakable truth is simply that the war was a mistake. This issue came to a head recently with Hillary Clinton's obstinate refusal to acknowledge that voting to give President Bush the authority to invade Iraq was the wrong thing to do. Though fellow Democrats John Edwards and Christopher Dodd have managed to say they erred in voting for the 2002 war resolution, Clinton is joined by Joe Biden and a full roster of Republicans in her inability to disgorge the M-word. Perhaps most absurdly, Chuck Hagel has called Bush's 21,500-troop "surge" the biggest blunder since Vietnam without ever saying that the war itself was the big blunder and that he favored it.

Reasons for refusing to admit that the war itself was a mistake are surprisingly similar across party lines. It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level. Specific political calculations help to explain their individual decisions. Hillary, for instance, worries that confessing her failure will make it easier for hawks to savage her if she gets the nomination. But at bottom, the impulse is always the same. Politicians are stubborn, afraid of looking weak, and fearful that any admission of error will be cast as flip-flopping and inconsistency.

A second truth universally unacknowledged is that American soldiers being killed, grotesquely maimed, and then treated like whining freeloaders at Walter Reed Hospital are victims as much as "heroes." John Kerry was the first to violate this taboo when he was still a potential candidate last year. Kerry appeared to tell a group of California college students that it sucks to go and fight in Iraq. A variety of conservative goons instantly denounced Kerry for disrespecting the troops. An advanced sufferer of Senatorial Infallibility Syndrome, Kerry resisted retracting his comment for a while, but eventually regretted what he called a "botched joke" about President Bush.

Lost in the debate about whether Kerry meant what came out of his mouth was the fact that what he said was largely true. Americans who attend college and have good employment options after graduation are unlikely to sign up for free tours of the Sunni Triangle. People join the military for a variety of reasons, of course, but since the Iraq war turned ugly, the all-volunteer Army has been lowering educational standards, raising enlistment bonuses, and looking past criminal records. The lack of better choices is a larger and larger factor in the choice of military service. Our troops in Iraq may not see themselves as cannon fodder or victims of presidential misjudgments, but that doesn't mean they're not.

Reality No. 3, closely related to No. 2 and following directly from No. 1, is that the American lives lost in Iraq have been lives wasted. Barack Obama crossed this boundary on his first trip to Iowa as an announced candidate when he declared at a rally, "We ended up launching a war that should have never been authorized and should have never been waged and to which we have now spent $400 billion and have seen over 3,000 lives of the bravest young Americans wasted." With lightning speed, Obama said he had misspoken and apologized to military families.

John McCain used the same proscribed term when he announced his candidacy on Late Night With David Letterman last week. "We've wasted a lot of our most precious treasure, which is American lives." This was a strange admission, given McCain's advocacy of a surge bigger than Bush's. In any case, McCain followed Obama by promptly regretting his choice of words. (The patriotically correct term for losing parts of your body in a pointless war in Mesopotamia is, of course, "sacrifice.") These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

A fourth and final near-certainty, which is in some ways the hardest for politicians to admit, is that America is losing or has already lost the Iraq war. The United States is the strongest nation in the history of the world and does not think of itself as coming in second in two-way contests. When it does so, it is slow to accept that it has been beaten. American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured. Even today, American politicians tend not to describe Vietnam as a straightforward defeat. Something similar is happening in Iraq, where the most that leaders typically say is that we "risk" losing and must not do so.

Democrats avoid the truth about the tragedy in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or unsupportive of the troops. Republicans avoid it for fear of being blamed for the disaster or losing defense and patriotism as cards to play against Democrats. Politicians on both sides believe that acknowledging the unpleasant truth will weaken them and undermine those still attempting to persevere on our behalf. But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2161385/fr/rss/

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

#5. To: leveller, ALL (#0)

American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured.

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:03:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BeAChooser, Burkeman1 (#5) (Edited)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Oye vay. And why am I not surprised by your BOT cookie cutter reponse.

Uh huh - the Vietnam War was lost by the librul media and anti-war movement and if only those 2 thingies did not exist, we would have whooped the North Vietnamese asses and their communist Chinese benefactors' asses something fierce. We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home, but victory was at hand if only we had stayed loooonger.

And here's the rub, by now we'd be engaging in free trade with a thriving democracy if it weren't for the librul press and anti-war groups - Ooops. We are engaging in free trade with Vietnam now and our gov't could care less whether the Vietnamese gov't is comprised of communists or pink purple eaters. But it mattered 40 years ago because of...fill in the blanks, BAC...I'll give you a hint...the missing words have the initials, M-I-C.

Get a clue, BAC - an ill begotten war ( faux Gulf of Tonkin incident)has bad results. Similarly it applies to the Iraq War. Or here's something simpler for your mind to ponder as it applies to our various wars for lies - "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

P.S. Have you ever fought in a war apart from a war of words in cyberspace, BAC?

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   14:19:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: scrapper2, ALL (#6)

We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:46:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: BeAChooser (#8)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- myths.net/buitin.htm

The important part is:

"Q: What about the results? A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was. "

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   15:05:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: historian1944, BeAChooser, Burkeman1, leveller, Ricky J (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

a. Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter wrap themselves with glee using the words of Colonel Bui Tin and parading the reason he gives for America missing out on winning one heck of noble war as the last word on the subject - like this Colonel Bui Tin is the official oracle on the Vietnam War..

What Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Mark Levine fail to tell everyone is that Colonel Bui Tin is a former communist "true believer" recently turned disenchanted vocal anti-communist dissent who lives in exile in Paris. Hmmm...let's think about the reasons why Colonel Bui Tin would be motivated to say what he said in an interview with the Wall Street Journal ( HA!)...capitalism symbol par excellence....

Here's a little background on the good colonel - and by the way he was a communist army journalist during the Vietnam War and he served on general staff of the NV army so knows the value of good propaganda - he stepped into a moment of history by chance due to circumstance and not because he was an experienced battle hardened war officer for the NV.

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

Also consider the fact that the Vietnamese had a history of fighting outsiders for long stretches of time - 1000 years against the Chinese dynasties - how long were we prepared to bleed in Vietnam and fight for its "independence" or whatever we thought we were doing there.

They didn't want us there. They did not like the corrupt S. Vietnamese gov't we were supporting. We left when we did because we should not been been in that stupid war in the first place. What a waste of blood and treasure and an example of our shameful use chemical weapons against civilian populations. That war has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

But worse, we did not even learn a lesson from that grotesque mistake.

When GWB did his WTO thumping for communist Vietnam this January, I felt relieved that many of the parents who gave up their sons for that elective Vietnam war "to fight communism" were not alive to see our gov't sponsoring communist Vietnam into the WTO. Pathetic. Nor were they alive to read newly released documents that showed LBJ lied us into the war due to a faux Tonkin Incident.

Here's a little current info on Colonel Bui Tin.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/WR92/ASW-15.htm ( Human Rights Watch)

b. Here's some background info on new behind the scenes docs about the Vietnam War quagmire and also some info regarding what MacNamara said about the reasons why Vietnam and why this also so similar to the Iraq debacle.

http://newsaigonsanjose.blogspot.co m/

Nov. 17, 2005

"On the American wars in Vietnam and Iraq"

Newly-released secret documents reveal that the Bush administration is struggling with the same issues that faced the administration of Richard Nixon.

Full text of NYT article here - cut and paste the url:

http://www. >http://nytimes.com/2005/11/17/international/17nixon.html? ex=1173502800&en=9c5c9f67c421ed62&ei=5070

"Vietnam Archive Casts a Shadow Across Decades" Thom Shanker and David Stout

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16, 2005 - White House advisers convene secret sessions about the political dangers of revelations that American troops committed atrocities in the war zone, and about whether the president can delicately intervene in the investigation. In the face of an increasingly unpopular war, they wonder at the impact on support at home. The best way out of the war, they agree, is to prop up a new government that they hope can unite the fractured foreign land.

The National Archives and Records Administration on Wednesday released 50,000 pages of previously classified documents from the Nixon administration that reveal how all of that president's men wrestled with issues that eerily parallel problems facing the Bush administration.

There are many significant differences between the wars in Vietnam and in Iraq - a point that senior administration officials make at any opportunity. But in tone and content, the Nixon-era debate about the impact of that generation's war - and of war-crimes trials - on public support for the military effort and for White House domestic initiatives strikes many familiar chords.

As the Nixon administration was waging a war and trying to impose a peace in South Vietnam, it worried intensely about how the 1968 massacre at My Lai of South Vietnamese civilians by American troops would hurt the war effort, both at home and in Asia.

My Lai "could prove acutely embarrassing to the United States" and could affect the Paris peace talks, Defense Secretary Melvin R. Laird warned President Nixon. "Domestically, it will provide grist for the mills of antiwar activists," Mr. Laird said.

Documents show how the Nixon White House fretted over politics and perception, much as the Bush White House has done during the Iraq war, and that it feared that mistreatment of civilians could be ruinous to its image.

"The handling of this case to date has strictly observed the code of military justice," Henry A. Kissinger, then the national security adviser, wrote in a memo to the Nixon aide H. R. Haldeman. Mr. Kissinger said the court-martial of Lt. William L. Calley Jr., who was implicated in the massacre and ultimately convicted, would alleviate press concerns about a cover-up.

Moreover, President Nixon believed that images could be changed, as the presidential aide John R. Brown III wrote to Mr. Kissinger. "Secretary Laird's press is a measure of the good things a onetime hard-liner can earn by playing the dove for the liberal press," Mr. Brown wrote on Jan. 14, 1970.

With so many academic studies, popular histories and memoirs on the bookshelf - and more than seven million pages of Nixon documents released since 1986 by the National Archives in an ongoing declassification process - historians combing over the files on Wednesday said they were looking for golden needles in a haystack more than mining a previously unknown vein of precious metals.

The new release of documents included files on early American assessments of Israel's nuclear program, debates about supporting Pakistan during its war with India in 1971 and the superpower rivalry with Moscow.

Some of the Vietnam documents contain details about how the Nixon administration tried to prop up South Vietnam's president, Nguyen Van Thieu, behind the scenes while portraying him publicly as a courageous leader, as President Johnson had done.

In language that resonates with the positions of the Bush administration with regard to building a new government in Baghdad, the Nixon White House said in May 1969 that it wanted to establish in Vietnam "procedures for political choice that give each significant group a real opportunity to participate in the political life of the nation."

"What the United States wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing," said an internal White House planning-initiative memo. "What North Vietnam wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing. What is important is what the people of South Vietnam want for themselves."

The papers illustrate, too, how as late as 1969 American leaders really did not know very much about the psychology of North Vietnam - or, for that matter, about sentiments in the South.

In March 1969, while the Paris peace talks were under way, American officials worried about how strongly to react to a rocket attack on Saigon. Secretary of State William P. Rogers cabled American diplomats about the decision not to retaliate militarily against the North.

"Plainly, we shall need to have the most careful and continuing readings of the South Vietnamese temperature," Mr. Rogers wrote, reflecting concerns in Washington that the Saigon government would suspect it was being sold out.

Around that time, the State Department suggested that the American negotiator Henry Cabot Lodge soften his language in conveying American displeasure to the Hanoi delegation.

"We prefer this language not because it is less ambiguous than the original version but, on the contrary, because it is more ambiguous - and hence more flexible - as to our response," a State Department cable said.

That July, President Thieu fussed over Washington's editing of a speech he was to make recounting all the concessions that had been made to the Communists and calling again for general elections. A secret State Department wire to Saigon and Paris said an aide to Mr. Thieu, in describing his boss's annoyance, "used a phrase which, translated into English, comes out like 'Secretary Rogers has deflowered my speech.' "

President Nixon praised the July 11 speech as "a comprehensive, statesmanlike and eminently fair proposal for a political settlement in South Vietnam."

The documents show an internal debate in Washington over what effects the death of Ho Chi Minh, the North Vietnamese leader, in September 1969, would have.

Mr. Kissinger told the president that Ho's death would hurt North Vietnam's morale but would probably not soften its resolve. But a State Department cable to its diplomats around that time, when the department was headed by Mr. Kissinger's rival, Mr. Rogers, had a different perspective.

"We are, of course, uncertain ourselves of consequences of Ho's death," it read in part. "We are handicapped in our own analysis by paucity of good intelligence information on North Vietnamese intentions and internal politics."

During the summer and fall of 1969, a great effort was made by the Nixon White House to intervene in a military investigation of a group of Army Special Forces who had been accused of killing a suspected double agent in Nha Trang.

In a memorandum to Bryce Harlow, a Nixon aide, on Sept. 26, 1969, Mr. Kissinger counseled him about how to deal with the concerns of Congress. "The main substantive point you should make," Mr. Kissinger wrote, "is that the president is very concerned about the long-term implications of this case and that he is most anxious to dispose of it in a way which will do the least damage to our national security, the prestige and discipline of our armed services and to preserve our future freedom of action in the clandestine area."

"This is clearly a sign of things to come - and we are really going to be hit," Mr. Haldeman wrote to Mr. Kissinger, urging a quiet resolution. "Anything we can do - even at this late date?"

****The blogger who links to the NYT article says the following:***

The similarities are eerie. There are big differences to be sure. But note the similarities:

In 1995, former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the architect of the American war in Vietnam, looked back and listed the major reasons for the failure of U.S. foreign policy there.

Here are some of them:

--We misjudged the intention of our adversaries and we exaggerated the danger to the United States.

--We viewed the people and the leaders in terms of our own experience. We saw in them a thirst for and a determination to fight for freedom and democracy. We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

--We underestimated the power of nationalism to motive a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values – and we continue to do so today in many parts of the world.

--Our misjudgments of friend and foe alike reflected profound ignorance of the history, culture and politics of the people in the area and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

--We failed to recognize the limits of modern, high technology military equipment, forces and doctrine in confronting unconventional, highly motivated people's movements.

--We failed to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of the people from a totally different culture.

--We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement before we initiated the action.

--After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

--We did not recognize that neither our people nor its leaders are omniscient.

--We did not hold to the principle that US military action – other than in response to direct threats to our own security – should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces fully and not merely cosmetically, by the international community.

--We failed to understand that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems in which there is no immediate solution.

I am not the first to say this, but those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   17:03:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#24)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: historian1944, Burkeman1, BeAChooser (#34) (Edited)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

Thank you for your sustinct remarks and observations to explain better the ramifications of the glob of information I had included in my previous post. You tie up everything very nicely.

As to your last observation you are especially on point - the whole domino theory and worry about what it represented, the main reason given for sending US forces to Vietnam, a nation several thousands of miles away from us was proven to be by and large empty war mongering rhetoric. As you say - our failure in Vietnam did not have any discernable negative impact either on the USA or on world affairs. Sean Hannity always beats his breast about those poor 3 Million Cambodians that our withdrawal from Vietnam caused but I've never heard Sean fret about the 5 Million Vietnamese casualties that were a direct result of the Vietnam War we waged on their soil. What a hypocritical Bot shill punk.

http://www.vietnam- war.info/casualties/

"Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged."

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   20:02:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: scrapper2, historian1944, ALL (#39)

the whole domino theory and worry about what it represented, the main reason given for sending US forces to Vietnam, a nation several thousands of miles away from us was proven to be by and large empty war mongering rhetoric.

http://www.januarymagazine.com/features/triumphexc.html "The domino theory was valid. The fear of falling dominoes in Asia was based not on simple-mindedness or paranoia, but rather on a sound understanding of the toppler countries and the domino countries. As Lyndon Johnson pondered whether to send U.S. troops into battle, the evidence overwhelmingly supported the conclusion that South Vietnam's defeat would lead to either a Communist takeover or the switching of allegiance to China in most of the region's countries. Information available since that time has reinforced this conclusion. Vietnam itself was not intrinsically vital to U.S. interests, but it was vital nevertheless because its fate strongly influenced events in other Asian countries that were intrinsically vital, most notably Indonesia and Japan. In 1965, China and North Vietnam were aggressively and resolutely trying to topple the dominoes, and the dominoes were very vulnerable to toppling. Throughout Asia, among those who paid attention to international affairs, the domino theory enjoyed a wide following. If the United States pulled out of Vietnam, Asia's leaders generally believed, the Americans would lose their credibility in Asia and most of Asia would have to bow before China or face destruction, with enormous global repercussions. Every country in Southeast Asia and the surrounding area, aside from the few that were already on China's side, advocated U.S. intervention in Vietnam, and most of them offered to assist the South Vietnamese war effort. The oft-maligned analogy to the Munich agreement of 1938 actually offered a sound prediction of how the dominoes would likely fall: Communist gains in one area would encourage the Communists to seek further conquests in other places, and after each Communist victory the aggressors would enjoy greater assets and the defenders fewer. Further evidence of the domino theory's validity can be found by examining the impact of America's Vietnam policy on other developments in the world between 1965 and the fall of South Vietnam in 1975, developments that would remove the danger of a tumbling of Asian dominoes. Among these were the widening of the Sino-Soviet split, the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and the civil war in Cambodia. America's willingness to hold firm in Vietnam did much to foster anti-Communism among the generals of Indonesia, which was the domino of greatest strategic importance in Southeast Asia. Had the Americans abandoned Vietnam in 1965, these generals most likely would not have seized power from the pro-Communist Sukarno and annihilated the Indonesian Communist Party later that year, as they ultimately did. Communism's ultimate failure to knock over the dominoes in Asia was not an inevitable outcome, independent of events in Vietnam, but was instead the result of obstacles that the United States threw in Communism's path by intervening in Vietnam."

And regards Iraq ...

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=4867 "I've pointed to quotes from Osama bin Laden and others which have characterized the US as a 'paper tiger', and all anyone has to do is commit to a "long war" and we'll eventually quit. I've attempted to argue that is dangerous perception to leave out there because it gives our enemies hope as well as an expectation of victory. And that translates into less hesitancy to take on the US. To those who found this argument wanting, some special guests to talk about that theory: Muhammad Saadi, a senior leader of Islamic Jihad in the northern West Bank town of Jenin, said the Democrats' talk of withdrawal from Iraq makes him feel "proud." ... snip ... Abu Ayman, an Islamic Jihad leader in Jenin, said he is "emboldened" by those in America who compare the war in Iraq to Vietnam. "[The mujahedeen fighters] brought the Americans to speak for the first time seriously and sincerely that Iraq is becoming a new Vietnam and that they should fix a schedule for their withdrawal from Iraq," boasted Abu Ayman. ... snip ... Islamic Jihad's Saadi, laughing, stated, "There is no chance that the resistance will stop." He said an American withdrawal from Iraq would "prove the resistance is the most important tool and that this tool works. The victory of the Iraqi revolution will mark an important step in the history of the region and in the attitude regarding the United States." Jihad Jaara said an American withdrawal would "mark the beginning of the collapse of this tyrant empire (America)." "Therefore, a victory in Iraq would be a greater defeat for America than in Vietnam." ... snip ... There are some serious issues here which those who wave-off the "paper tiger" meme will be content to ignore. But to those quoted above, it's not a non-issue or an academic exercise. It's reality as they see it. And it is their reality which will drive their future actions whether we agree or not. Don't believe me? Check out the new location of the goal posts: Saadi stated, "Unfortunately I think those who are speaking about a withdrawal will not do so when they are in power and these promises will remain electoral slogans. It is not enough to withdraw from Iraq. They must withdraw from Afghanistan and from every Arab and Muslim land they occupy or have bases."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:16:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: BeAChooser (#43)

If the domino theory was valid, and the fall of Vietnam would lead to Chinese hegemony in Southeast Asia, why weren't we more concerned that Cuba was becoming Communist, which would lead to all of South America becoming Communist? Why should we be willing to send soldiers to prevent a country thousands of miles away from becoming Communist, but we shouldn't have a problem with a Communist country 90 miles away?

Did lack of media coverage and internal outrage make the Soviets successful in Afghanistan? Did the resistance in Afghanistan need press coverage or discussion in the Russian media to maintain motivation to continue? Where does the belief that all will be well if no one knows what's going on come from?

From the http://WND.com article referenced in the previous post: ""We warned the Americans that this will be their end in Iraq," said Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' declared "resistance" department. "They did not succeed in stealing Iraq's oil, at least not at a level that covers their huge expenses. They did not bring stability. Their agents in the [Iraqi] regime seem to have no chance to survive if the Americans withdraw." "

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage? Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true? The only difference if there was a better media blackout than currently exists is that the American people would think him a crackpot since the USAID website doesn't track with what he's saying. Would it make the situation on the ground different? Would it change that when I was there in late 2003/early 2004, there were on average 15 attacks on coaliton forces when the insurgency was in its death throes, and now there are 10 times more attacks against coalition forces? Does media coverage make General Petraeus' comments about needing a political solution less true?

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   20:35:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: historian1944, ALL (#45)

If the domino theory was valid, and the fall of Vietnam would lead to Chinese hegemony in Southeast Asia, why weren't we more concerned that Cuba was becoming Communist, which would lead to all of South America becoming Communist?

Actually we were. Remember Nicaragua and the Sandinistas?

You might find this interesting ...

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0902/0902domino.htm

Why should we be willing to send soldiers to prevent a country thousands of miles away from becoming Communist, but we shouldn't have a problem with a Communist country 90 miles away?

Actually, only the democRAT party has no problem with Cuba being communist.

Did lack of media coverage and internal outrage make the Soviets successful in Afghanistan? Did the resistance in Afghanistan need press coverage or discussion in the Russian media to maintain motivation to continue? Where does the belief that all will be well if no one knows what's going on come from?

Not sure where this is coming from. I haven't suggested all will be well if no one knows what's going on. What I said is that things can go wrong when the media DISTORTS what's going on to fit their own agenda. That's what they did in Vietnam and that is what they are doing now.

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage?

Such people use our media to spread their propaganda ... for free. That's not the way to fight an information war ... and this is as much an information war as anything else. It's a war of WILL, and anything that can bolster or weaken will is a weapon. Our enemies are using our media against us.

Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true?

But it isn't true. It's propaganda and our media helping making American's believe it (as they clearly have done) is the only way our enemies will win.

Would it make the situation on the ground different?

The situation on the ground for terrorists has been dire in Iraq. The media in this country didn't tell the public how effective the campaign against terrorists has been the last several years and the progress made on multiple fronts. Instead, it concentrated on every bad event it could find or anything that potentially could be interpreted as bad. Iraq has been a killing ground for terrorists and has led to numerous intelligence coups that have significantly hurt terrorist plots. But that's not what the media has told the public. So the situation on the ground is definitely affected by what impact terrorists think their actions will have on OUR WILL and that of the Iraqis. Until recently morale in Iraq has been good but the weakening of will in America (as a direct result of media reporting) is now taking its toll. And don't think for one second that our enemies aren't watching that with interest.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think during WW2 the media was prevented from telling the public how dire the situation was initially? Would we have won that war if the media had done then what they've been doing now? Now be honest...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   21:04:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: BeAChooser (#50)

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage? Such people use our media to spread their propaganda ... for free. That's not the way to fight an information war ... and this is as much an information war as anything else. It's a war of WILL, and anything that can bolster or weaken will is a weapon. Our enemies are using our media against us.

Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true? But it isn't true. It's propaganda and our media helping making American's believe it (as they clearly have done) is the only way our enemies will win.

Would it make the situation on the ground different? The situation on the ground for terrorists has been dire in Iraq. The media in this country didn't tell the public how effective the campaign against terrorists has been the last several years and the progress made on multiple fronts.

I agree that the gentlemen referenced in the article that you posted within one of your replies, from http://WorldNetDaily.com was using our media to fight his information war for free. But in this case, the only place I see that particular gentleman referenced was at http://wnd.com, and they're giving him a free venue from which to state his case, and this from a site that supports the war. But the only thing he said that's in dispute is the part about us leaving. Iraq is not stable, and we haven't been able to obtain the oil exports that we said would pay for this war.

You are correct that we are fighting an information war, and that's one of the few lessons we've picked up from the Russian experience in Chechnya. It's vital to get our side of the information out, and it's vital that we get our information out first, in a fashion that paints reality in a manner that supports our cause. I have no argument. The point I was trying to make is that, no matter how hard one tries, sometimes reality intrudes. The will of the Soviet people to continue fighting in Afghanistan in 1989 was not eroded by bad media coverage, or lack of reporting on how many schools had been opened. Lack of reports of schools being opened or water purification plants being reopened isn't what is weakening the American peoples' resolve. Those aren't real progress; having a government with some modicum of control over the situation in their own country is progress. If the US combat dead and number of attacks per day had a downward trend again, that would be progress. For the past four years, in nearly every category, all the data points to a deteriorating situation, and the only strategy is to keep doing what we've been doing during that time, because if we only wait long enough, somethings got to change. In this kind of war, that idea doesn't seem to have worked anywhere. That's why General Petraeus said that more than a military solution was needed, and it sound a little like von Rundstedt in 1944 barking "Make peace, you fools!" when asked what the Germans should do. You note that the Iraqis are governing themselves, and that they need to have less direct help from us. I can agree with that statement, and that's what me and others are saying: it's time for us to start leaving, since they're a sovereign government. They can figure it out, they're not stupid people. Having large contingents of US representatives at their elbow only creates a constant crisis of legitimacy for them, so it's time for our direct involvement to end. They'll do fine.

I don't know that you could ever characterize the situation for us as dire in WWII. There weren't Huns at the gate if we failed. Operation Torch went off quite well, we did have a little setback at Kasserine (my father listened to Lord Ha-Ha on shortwave tell the German side of the story during that time, so even then, there was negative information available-today it is easier and more pervasive though), but we stopped Rommel's advance, and that was a real propaganda coup that could and was emphasized. Rommel did later say that he never encountered soldiers as inept as we were at Kasserine, but he also never encountered soldiers who learned so fast from their mistakes.

WWII was a little different also because Japan attacked us directly and the Germans then obligingly declared war on us, so no amount of negative publicity was going to change that. Sure there was a fairly substantial antiwar sentiment from the Old Right that probably would have kept us out of the war in Europe had the Germans not committed what some have called the greatest grand strategic blunder in human history.

Even then, with relatively light casualties, in 1945 we were tired of war, despite mainly positive reporting going on (from 1944 on, there was heavy fighting but no setbacks.) And then, the second the armistices were signed, the American people were clamoring for the boys to come back home. There was huge resistance from families whose loved ones were getting ready to head overseas after the war ended. The argument was that the war was over, why do you still need troops? The American people didn't seem to think that occupation duty was something that required manpower also.

I don't think that the will to fight hinges quite so much how things are reported as much as how worthy the cause seems to be. The Soviets had nothing but dire reports throughout mid to late 1941, yet they still continued to fight. When Guderian was shelling Moscow the Soviets didn't give up. While Leningrad was under siege from 1941 to 1944, the Soviets didn't give up. They felt that national survival required whatever sacrifice was necessary. The Administration didn't present this current war as something that required that level of effort. We've reached the level of cost that most Americans seem to feel constitutes a losing investment and they want to cover their losses and stop pouring more good money after bad (in this case lives).

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-09   7:05:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: historian1944, ALL (#65)

But in this case, the only place I see that particular gentleman referenced was at http://wnd.com,

Did you use your browser? The comments of Hamas' Abu Abdullah are all over the internet and carried by plenty of mainstream sites. All it takes is one source to post something and a thousand others will pick it up and repeat it. And I'd bet you that his comments are carried extensively by Arab media.

But the only thing he said that's in dispute is the part about us leaving. Iraq is not stable, and we haven't been able to obtain the oil exports that we said would pay for this war.

What he said about the war being about stealing oil is certainly in dispute. But the constant chanting of that by the left, anti-warriors and media has made it a mantra among many democRATS and throughout the world. And as to Iraq not being stable, ask yourself the reason. It was HIS FRIENDS that have made Iraq unstable. And here he is telling you (will you listen?) that if we leave many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are going to be murdered by HIS FRIENDS. TERRORISTS.

The will of the Soviet people to continue fighting in Afghanistan in 1989 was not eroded by bad media coverage, or lack of reporting on how many schools had been opened.

Please. The Soviets weren't opening schools. And for you even to compare Soviet society and their Afghan war to ours and this one is downright silly.

Lack of reports of schools being opened or water purification plants being reopened isn't what is weakening the American peoples' resolve.

On the contrary, failure to highlight and keep Americans thinking about the GOOD we have done and the PROMISE of a better Iraq if we continue is precisely what has been weakening American resolve. Americans are more than ready to spend blood and resources if they think the outcome will be worth it. That has been proven over and over in our history. Our resolve has been weakened because the media has done lip service to reporting progress and worked overtime to exploit every possible bad thing that might be said about the war and its goals.

I asked you a question and I see you didn't answer it. It is relevant. Let me ask you again. Would we have won WW2 if the media had done then what they've been doing now? Now be honest...

That's why General Petraeus said that more than a military solution was needed, and it sound a little like von Rundstedt in 1944 barking "Make peace, you fools!" when asked what the Germans should do.

And what sort of peace are you going to make in this case? Who will you negotiate with? Are their demands something you can live with? Who are you prepared to sell out in order to extricate yourself? What will be the consequences of that sell out? What are the long term costs to cutting and running?

You note that the Iraqis are governing themselves, and that they need to have less direct help from us. I can agree with that statement, and that's what me and others are saying: it's time for us to start leaving, since they're a sovereign government. They can figure it out, they're not stupid people. Having large contingents of US representatives at their elbow only creates a constant crisis of legitimacy for them, so it's time for our direct involvement to end. They'll do fine.

But do you advocate that withdrawal over a matter of months (like some of the democRAT leaders) or years (like the military and Republican leaders)? Because that does make a big difference. To the Iraqis. It also will make a difference to American soldiers and future morale. And if it turns out that Syria and Iran are indeed causing most of the trouble, are we simply to ignore that? Do you think they will stop if we leave? You need to look at this in the larger context. Even after we leave Iraq, there will still be a world wide war going on ... with certain states supporting the other side. The outcome in Iraq can work for us or against us in that war. It very much depends on HOW we leave and whether the Iraqi government survives. It is in OUR interests to leave with a victory. We will not win the WOT if we lose in Iraq ... if islamo-fanatics end up in control. That is a fact that none of the democRATS (except perhaps Liberman) begins to grasp .

I don't know that you could ever characterize the situation for us as dire in WWII.

ROTFLOL! You tell that to the 300,000 Americans who DIED or ended up missing. There were times during the war when the situation could only be described as GRAVE. Even filtered and highly censored news reports made that quite clear to the American public. Now there is no doubt that as long as we stayed the course, we would probably win. But at what cost. Again, I ask you if the media in that war had been allowed to do what the media has done in this war, would we have had the will to continue the struggle after losing even a 100,000 soldiers? Or would we have sued for peace? And then what would the world look like today? You keep in mind that Germans were 6 months behind us in developing nuclear weapons ... and years ahead of us in rockets and long range aircraft to deliver them. Maybe the first nuclear war would have been fought not with 2 weapons but 1000's of weapons. And we would have fought that war at an extreme disadvantage in technology.

I don't think that the will to fight hinges quite so much how things are reported as much as how worthy the cause seems to be.

I'll ask you again. If the media had reported WW2 like they've reported this one, would we have won or ended up negotiating a peace. Keep in mind that a very good case could be made that the US forced Japan into attacking it. Keep in mind that conspiracists could have done to the Pearl Harbor attack what they've done to the 9/11 attack. Keep in mind that America had very strong isolationist tendencies and much of what the administration did was done to override them. But what if the media had been the watchdog then that it is now?

The Soviets had nothing but dire reports throughout mid to late 1941, yet they still continued to fight.

ONLY because of US help. If America stayed out of the war ... if America negotiated a peace to avoid having hundreds of thousands of dead and avoid spending the equivalent of trillions on the war, one of the conditions for that peace would undoubtedly have been we cease helping the Soviets. What then?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   13:33:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: BeAChooser (#74)

On the contrary, failure to highlight and keep Americans thinking about the GOOD we have done and the PROMISE of a better Iraq if we continue is precisely what has been weakening American resolve. Americans are more than ready to spend blood and resources if they think the outcome will be worth it.

Here's what is "weakening" the American public's "resolve" on Iraq - TRUTH.

We have discovered that Saddam was not consorting with AQ.

We have discovered there were no WMD in Iraq.

We have discovered that the Office of Special Plans ran a Lie Factory to tweak information to propel us into war for lies.

We have discovered that the Israel and its national security was the main reason for the invasion of Iraq, followed by defense industry and re- construction industry interests.

We have discovered that we were lied to from the get go and that we have spent American blood and treasure in Iraq not for America's interests.

We need to cut our losses and get out of Iraq asap.

People like you and other neocons got us into Iraq - get your butts over to Iraq along with your children and fight the war you started. Maybe the IDF can help you.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   13:44:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: scrapper2, all (#77)

We have discovered that Saddam was not consorting with AQ.

But Saddam was sheltering known terrorists and allowing folks like al-Zarqawi to plan mass casualty terrorist acts from within Iraq ... from even within Bagdhad.

We have discovered there were no WMD in Iraq.

That's not what that binary sarin warhead that turned up as an IED says. And the ISG also said they had a credible source telling them that WMD related items were transferred to Syria before the invasion. And noone has determined what was in the truck convoys that went to Syria before the war (accompanied by Iraqi troops) or why Saddam's regime went to so much trouble to sanitize files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD activities prior to, during and even after the invasion. What were they hiding if they had nothing to hide?

We have discovered that the Office of Special Plans ran a Lie Factory to tweak information to propel us into war for lies.

That's your opinion. The TRUTH is that Wilson (your sides hero) is the proven liar.

We have discovered that the Israel and its national security was the main reason for the invasion of Iraq, followed by defense industry and re- construction industry interests.

ROTFLOL! Sure, Saddam applauding the 9/11 hijackers had nothing to do with it.

We need to cut our losses and get out of Iraq asap.

Damn the consequences. Right?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   15:33:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: BeAChooser (#78)

a. The lie that Saddam was consorting with Zarqawi was spun with the help of "our allies" the Kurds. Zarqawi was seen in N. Iraq, an area to which Saddam had no access, but where our "allies" the Kurds lived. He also received medical care on the Q.T. at a Baghdad hospital - and last I heard Saddam was not an Iraqi physician. But more importantly what a coincidence that the Kurds have such a close business and military relationship with the Israelis.

b. Debka claimed that Saddam sent WMD to Syria. Debka is a Mossad mouthpiece.

The 9/11 Commission reported that Saddam had no WMD, that he was not consorting with AQ, and that Iraq was no threat to America. The 9/11 Commission was a bi- partisan investigative committee - it was not a librul commission, btw.

c. The Office of Special Plans run by your hero, Doug Feith, was recently in the news. Feith narrowly missed having criminal charges lodged against his sorry ass for what he and the OSP did with manipulating intel that propelled us into this war for lies.

d. Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt, professors at U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research paper and it is clear there would have not been any Iraq invasion were it not for Israel Lobby influence. They just signed a book contract to expand on their study findings per the august publishing firm, Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Philip Zeilikow - one of the chairs of the 9/11 commission and a pro-Israel hawk himself - admitted this to be the case as well:

http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

Zelikow made his statements about ”the unstated threat” during his tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports directly to the president.

He served on the board between 2001 and 2003.

”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.

”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.

e. You and your neocon IsraelFirst ilk did not think about consequences to America or to Iraq when you propelled us into this elective unnecessary war. So spare me the irony of your statement: "Damn the consequences. Right?"

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   16:07:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: scrapper2, ALL (#79)

The lie that Saddam was consorting with Zarqawi

Did I say that? I did not. I said Saddam's regime was allowing the organization to operate within Iraq, even within Baghdad. And this is true. The CIA said that associates of al-Zarqawi were arrested then released, on orders from Saddam. Documents captured after the war indicate that when an associate of Zarqawi was captured, he was let go on orders from higher ups even though the arresting officer said the evidence showed the man was guilty of the charges for which he was picked up.

Zarqawi was seen in N. Iraq, an area to which Saddam had no access, but where our "allies" the Kurds lived.

That doesn't mean that Saddam had no influence in Northern Iraq. There are numerous sources that indicate Iraqi had agents working with the al-Qaeda in those Northern camps. And there is no doubt that al-Zarqawi and his followers had no trouble traveling between Baghdad and the North or in other parts of the country. Now were you or I to have tried to travel those routes ...

He also received medical care on the Q.T. at a Baghdad hospital

You don't know it was on the Q.T. You are just assuming it was. What we do know is that the Iraqi regime closely monitored what happened at its hospitals.

And you omit one minor (or not so minor) detail. Al-qaeda terrorists captured in Jordan and put on trial (and convicted) for an attempt to kill tens of thousands (including all those in the US embassy in Amman) in a mass casualty chemical bomb attack admitted that they were al-Qaeda, that they worked for al-Zarqawi, that he funded their efforts, and that they met him IN BAGHDAD to plan the attack. They had to have met him in Baghdad BEFORE the invasion because they said they never returned to Iraq after going to Syria to prepare for the attack.

Debka claimed that Saddam sent WMD to Syria. Debka is a Mossad mouthpiece.

I didn't mention Debka.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050427-121915-1667r.htm "The CIA's chief weapons inspector said he cannot rule out the possibility that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were secretly shipped to Syria before the March 2003 invasion, citing "sufficiently credible" evidence that WMDs may have been moved there. ... snip ... "ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war," Mr. Duelfer said in a report posted on the CIA's Web site Monday night. "Whether Syria received military items from Iraq for safekeeping or other reasons has yet to be determined," he said. "There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation." But Mr. Duelfer said he was unable to complete that aspect of the probe because "the declining security situation limited and finally halted this investigation. The results remain inconclusive, but further investigation may be undertaken when circumstances on the ground improve." Arguing against a WMD transfer to Syria, Mr. Duelfer said, was the fact that all senior Iraqi detainees involved in Saddam's weapons programs and security "uniformly denied any knowledge of residual WMD that could have been secreted to Syria." "Nevertheless," the inspector said, "given the insular and compartmented nature of the regime, ISG analysts believed there was enough evidence to merit further investigation."

Let me repeat. The ISG said they had a CREDIBLE informant who said WMD related items were moved to Syria. The ISG said they couldn't resolve this question because it had become too dangerous FOR THEM. Someone was targeting members of the ISG. Odd thing to do if the ISG was looking for a ghost.

And maybe the ISG had other reasons to discontinue the effort.

David Gaubatz, a former member of the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, say that between March and July 2003, he was taken by his sources to four locations - three in and around Nasiriyah and one near the port of Umm Qasr, where he was shown underground concrete bunkers with the tunnels leading to them deliberately flooded. In each case, he was told the facilities contained stocks of biological and chemical weapons, along with missiles whose range exceeded that mandated under U.N. sanctions. He said the ISG wouldn't investigate.

Furthermore, there were others who said this transfer occurred. For one, an ex-General in Saddam's Air Force, Sada, said he had sources in the Iraqi military who told him they were moved to Syria in the summer of 2002 by air and by truck under the guise of humanitarian aid to Syria. And there are others who say the evidence indicates the Russians helped in this transfer. You want to read more about it? Try the links at this URL: http://www.therant.us/daily_columns/in_serach_of_saddam_husseins_wmd.htm

And what was in those trucks that went from Iraq to Syria before the invasion?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21489 "Glazov: What exactly is the evidence that Iraq moved its WMD into Syria?"

Don't believe that source? Well how about this?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040816-011235-4438r.htm "Saddam agents on Syria border helped move banned materials"

Or this?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10547 "Syria Storing Iraq's WMDs"

Or this ...

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/dod-report-50-trucks-carried-iraqi-wmd-to-syria "DoD Report: 50 Trucks Carried Iraqi WMD To Syria"

The 9/11 Commission reported that Saddam had no WMD, That binary sarin warhead that turned up as an IED proves the 9/11 Commission was more interested in politics than in the facts. They also claimed a lot of things about Atta and the collapse of the WTC towers that simply aren't true. Go figure ...

that he was not consorting with AQ,

Actually, that's not what they said. They acknowledged clandestine meetings between bin Laden, his associates and members of the Iraqi regime. They just said the two didn't seem to have a "collaborative" arrangement ... but then what does that really mean and how can they be sure when Iraq went to so much trouble to destroy records throughout the country before, during and after the invasion.

And meanwhile, you go ahead and ignore reports like this:

http://cgi.warblogging.com/warfarking/mirror/1050418238.html "Guerrilla fighters seen as threat to allied forces, By Bill Gertz, THE WASHINGTON TIMES ... snip ... Conventional military conflict in Iraq is nearly over, but thousands of foreign fighters and supporters of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein remain in the country and pose a danger to U.S. and allied forces, U.S. officials said yesterday. The allies have discovered that Iraq was training or harboring guerrillas from North Africa and throughout the Middle East. Army Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, deputy director of operations for the U.S. Central Command, said the foreign guerrillas are "still threats" even though organized fighting by the Iraqi military has all but stopped. ... snip ... The discovery last weekend of hundreds of bomb-laden leather jackets has raised fears of more suicide attacks against coalition troops. At least 80 of the 300 jackets, each of which was lined with several pounds of C-4 plastic high explosive laced with ball bearings, are missing from the elementary school near Baghdad where they were found. "We think that some of the explosive vests were meant for" the foreign fighters, he said. The guerrilla fighters are a mixture of untrained Islamist and Arab supporters and others who have military or terrorist training, according to defense and intelligence officials. Documents obtained from dead and captured fighters show the foreigners included Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Moroccans, Saudis, Yemenis and other Arabs. Intelligence reports also indicate that al Qaeda and Hezbollah terrorists remain in Iraq and are a threat to coalition forces. More than 100 al Qaeda terrorists are believed to have been in Iraq before the start of the war, the official said. As for Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed terrorist group based in Lebanon, the exact number of fighters in Iraq is not known, the official said. "These guys still pose a threat. They are irregular forces," the official said. ... snip ... The official said there are no solid estimates of how many foreign guerrillas and terrorists are in Iraq. "Rather than hundreds, it could be in the thousands," the official said. ... snip ... Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said yesterday that Syria's government has permitted the guerrilla volunteers to go into Iraq. "We have intelligence that shows that Syria has allowed Syrians and others to come across the border into Iraq, people armed and people carrying leaflets indicating that they'll be rewarded if they kill Americans and members of the coalition," Mr. Rumsfeld told reporters outside the Pentagon. ... snip ... Military officials said scores of the untrained and lightly armed foreign forces conducted ground assaults with rifles and grenade launchers against columns of heavily armed U.S. tanks and armored vehicles. The attackers were killed in what officials described as suicide wave assaults. Mr. Cannistraro said the fanatical Fedayeen Saddam militia set up a foreign brigade for the outside volunteers, including those willing to conduct suicide bombings. ... snip ... One British tank group commander told the Daily Times of Pakistan that a large number of foreign guerrillas held out at Basra University last week, including one who charged a tank with a grenade. ... snip ... U.S. Marines also took over a terrorist training camp at Salman Pak, south of Baghdad, a week ago. The camp had been used by Sudanese and Egyptian trainees, military officials said. "We believe that this camp had been used to train these foreign fighters in terror tactics. It is now destroyed," Gen. Brooks said April 5. "The nature of the work being done by some of those people that we captured, their inferences to the type of training they received, all these things give us the impression that there was terrorist training that was conducted at Salman Pak," he said."

I can't really see how anyone can rationally deny that terrorists were using Iraq for staging and training and that the Iraqi government was complicit in this.

and that Iraq was no threat to America.

Did they really conclude that? You'll have to show me that part. And maybe the commission just missed the mural our troops found with Saddam smoking a cigar in front of the WTC towers after they were hit and burning ... celebrating.

c. The Office of Special Plans run by your hero, Doug Feith,

Care to point out how you come to the conclusion he's my hero?

Feith narrowly missed having criminal charges lodged against his sorry ass for what he and the OSP did with manipulating intel that propelled us into this war for lies.

Narrowly missed? You mean they got Scooter Libby for a crime that wasn't but didn't manage to get Feith? ROTFLOL!

Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt, professors at U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research paper and it is clear there would have not been any Iraq invasion were it not for Israel Lobby influence.

By all means, post the link so we can see if you got this one right or if what they claim has any merit. Uhhh, maybe not ...

http://sandbox.blog-city.com/mearsheimer_walt_retreat.htm "On the two points over which I challenged Mearsheimer in person three weeks ago in Princeton (while he and Walt were preparing their response), the retreats appear to be total. The first has to do with the alleged role of Israel in pushing for the Iraq war. The original paper devoted an entire section to the authors' claim that Israel used the Lobby to conduct a campaign in favor of war. Mearsheimer and Walt: "Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical." At the Princeton conference, I provided a body of counter-evidence, which pointed to Israel's dissent from the U.S. preoccupation with Iraq, and its fear that much-stronger Iran would benefit from the Iraq distraction. Evidence for this dissent even surfaced in leading U.S. papers in the year before the war, in articles that Mearsheimer and Walt failed to cite. Here, then, is the reformulated Mearsheimer/Walt position: "[T]he lobby, by itself, could not convince either the Clinton or the Bush administration to invade Iraq. Nevertheless, there is abundant evidence that the neo-conservatives and other groups within the lobby played a central role in making the case for war." Let's count the retreats. First, Israel is no longer cited as pushing for war. Second, the lobby (with a lower-case "L" this time) is disaggregated into "groups," and in any case takes second place to the neo-conservatives. Third, the role played by the "groups within the lobby" is now merely "central," not "critical." By my reading, the authors have backed down from at least half of their original claim about the origins of the Iraq war."

You and your neocon IsraelFirst ilk

I have no association with Israel nor do I think I fit the definition of neocon. Surprisingly, anytime I ask someone to define the term, they usually don't. How about you?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   22:00:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: BeAChooser (#83)

Thanks but no thanks - frontpage and Washington Times - read those yourself - I'd prefer not to pollute my mind.

**************************************************************************

As for Doug Feith - (smirk) - like you don't know why Dougie wasn't charged with treason - spare me - people in high places would also be brought down for treason or impeachment along with Feith for propelling our nation into an invasion of Iraq for false reasons. Not that Doug Feith had much to fear personally even if he were charged - Israel does not extradite criminals bearing dual Israeli citizenship. But you probably knew that, didn't you.

Here's a link to Drs Mearsheimer's and Walt's research study - abstract followed by full text options - enjoy!

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? abstract_id=891198

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

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As for Drs. Mearsheimer's and Walt's findings that the Iraq invasion was primarily a result of pressure from the Israel Lobby and for Israel's security, here's some cut and paste:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/me ar01_.html

"...Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure."

**************************************************************************

Also when the IsraelFirster character assassins came out in hordes, here's what Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt had to say ( some cut and paste):

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n09/le tters.html

Probably the most popular argument made about a countervailing force is Herf and Markovits’s claim that the centrepiece of US Middle East policy is oil, not Israel. There is no question that access to that region’s oil is a vital US strategic interest. Washington is also deeply committed to supporting Israel. Thus, the relevant question is, how does each of those interests affect US policy? We maintain that US policy in the Middle East is driven primarily by the commitment to Israel, not oil interests. If the oil companies or the oil- producing countries were driving policy, Washington would be tempted to favour the Palestinians instead of Israel. Moreover, the United States would almost certainly not have gone to war against Iraq in March 2003, and the Bush administration would not be threatening to use military force against Iran. Although many claim that the Iraq war was all about oil, there is hardly any evidence to support that supposition, and much evidence of the lobby’s influence. Oil is clearly an important concern for US policymakers, but with the exception of episodes like the 1973 Opec oil embargo, the US commitment to Israel has yet to threaten access to oil. It does, however, contribute to America’s terrorism problem, complicates its efforts to halt nuclear proliferation, and helped get the United States involved in wars like Iraq.

*************************************************************************

Strangely enough, BeAChooser, even though you claim that the MSM is librul and that it is anti-GWB and anti-America and anti-Iraq War etc, etc....well, if your theory is correct, one would have thought that MSM would have jumped at the opportunity to interview Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt to reveal how America went to war to defend a foreign nation's security, not America's,...but MSM totally ignored Drs. mearsheimer and Walt. And in fact those 2 esteemed American professors and scholars could not find a mainstream US publication that would give them any publicity whatsoever about the results of their research study. Fancy that! Professors Mearsheimer and Walt were forced to use a British publication - the London Review of Books - to announce their findings.

That's very curious, don't you think, BAC?

***************************************************************************

As for a good definition of what a neocon/neoconservativism is all about why not get the information from the Godfather of neoconservativism, Irving Kristol - uh huh, the father of the smarmy twerp, Billy Kristol, who is a political consultant (cough, cough) for FOX News.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw .asp

"The Neoconservative Persuasion: What it was, and what it is"

By Irving Kristol, 08/25/2003, Volume 008, Issue 47

Some cut and paste:

"Finally, for a great power, the "national interest" is not a geographical term, except for fairly prosaic matters like trade and environmental regulation. A smaller nation might appropriately feel that its national interest begins and ends at its borders, so that its foreign policy is almost always in a defensive mode. A larger nation has more extensive interests. And large nations, whose identity is ideological, like the Soviet Union of yesteryear and the United States of today, inevitably have ideological interests in addition to more material concerns. Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened. No complicated geopolitical calculations of national interest are necessary. "

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   23:17:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 87.

#89. To: scrapper2, ALL (#87)

frontpage and Washington Times - read those yourself - I'd prefer not to pollute my mind.

ROTFLOL! No, the Washington Post and NYTimes are more your style.

Professors Mearsheimer and Walt were forced to use a British publication

Sort of like Roberts and Burkham using a British publication?

ROTFLOL!

"Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened."

So that is your definition of a neocon? Someone who believes a democracy should come to the aid of other democracies?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-10 13:57:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

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