[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Iran sets a world record by deporting 300,000 illegal refugees in 14 days

Brazilian Women Soccer Players (in Bikinis) Incredible Skills

Watch: Mexico City Protest Against American Ex-Pat 'Invasion' Turns Viole

Kazakhstan Just BETRAYED Russia - Takes gunpowder out of Putin’s Hands

Why CNN & Fareed Zakaria are Wrong About Iran and Trump

Something Is Going Deeply WRONG In Russia

329 Rivers in China Exceed Flood Warnings, With 75,000 Dams in Critical Condition

Command Of Russian Army 'Undermined' After 16 Of Putin's Generals Killed At War, UK Says

Rickards: Superintelligence Will Never Arrive

Which Countries Invest In The US The Most?

The History of Barbecue

‘Pathetic’: Joe Biden tells another ‘tall tale’ during rare public appearance

Lawsuit Reveals CDC Has ZERO Evidence Proving Vaccines Don't Cause Autism

Trumps DOJ Reportedly Quietly Looking Into Criminal Charges Against Election Officials

Volcanic Risk and Phreatic (Groundwater) eruptions at Campi Flegrei in Italy

Russia Upgrades AGS-17 Automatic Grenade Launcher!

They told us the chickenpox vaccine was no big deal—just a routine jab to “protect” kids from a mild childhood illness

Pentagon creates new military border zone in Arizona

For over 200 years neurological damage from vaccines has been noted and documented

The killing of cardiologist in Gaza must be Indonesia's wake-up call

Marandi: Israel Prepares Proxies for Next War with Iran?

"Hitler Survived WW2 And I Brought Proof" Norman Ohler STUNS Joe Rogan

CIA Finally Admits a Pyschological Warfare Agent from the Agency “Came into Contact” with Lee Harvey Oswald before JFK’s Assassination

CNN Stunned As Majority Of Americans Back Trump's Mass Deportation Plan

Israeli VS Palestinian Connections to the Land of Israel-Palestine

Israel Just Lost Billions - Haifa and IMEC

This Is The Income A Family Needs To Be Middle Class, By State

One Big Beautiful Bubble": Hartnett Warns US Debt Will Exceed $50 Trillion By 2032

These Are The Most Stolen Cars In Every US State

Earth Changes Summary - June 2025: Extreme Weather, Planetary Upheaval,


War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Four Unspeakable Truths
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/120404
Published: Mar 8, 2007
Author: Jacob Weisberg
Post Date: 2007-03-08 07:38:38 by leveller
Keywords: None
Views: 3019
Comments: 96

What politicians won't admit about Iraq

When it comes to Iraq, there are two kinds of presidential candidates. The disciplined ones, like Hillary Clinton, carefully avoid acknowledging reality. The more candid, like John McCain and Barack Obama, sometimes blurt out the truth, but quickly apologize.

For many presidential aspirants, the first unspeakable truth is simply that the war was a mistake. This issue came to a head recently with Hillary Clinton's obstinate refusal to acknowledge that voting to give President Bush the authority to invade Iraq was the wrong thing to do. Though fellow Democrats John Edwards and Christopher Dodd have managed to say they erred in voting for the 2002 war resolution, Clinton is joined by Joe Biden and a full roster of Republicans in her inability to disgorge the M-word. Perhaps most absurdly, Chuck Hagel has called Bush's 21,500-troop "surge" the biggest blunder since Vietnam without ever saying that the war itself was the big blunder and that he favored it.

Reasons for refusing to admit that the war itself was a mistake are surprisingly similar across party lines. It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level. Specific political calculations help to explain their individual decisions. Hillary, for instance, worries that confessing her failure will make it easier for hawks to savage her if she gets the nomination. But at bottom, the impulse is always the same. Politicians are stubborn, afraid of looking weak, and fearful that any admission of error will be cast as flip-flopping and inconsistency.

A second truth universally unacknowledged is that American soldiers being killed, grotesquely maimed, and then treated like whining freeloaders at Walter Reed Hospital are victims as much as "heroes." John Kerry was the first to violate this taboo when he was still a potential candidate last year. Kerry appeared to tell a group of California college students that it sucks to go and fight in Iraq. A variety of conservative goons instantly denounced Kerry for disrespecting the troops. An advanced sufferer of Senatorial Infallibility Syndrome, Kerry resisted retracting his comment for a while, but eventually regretted what he called a "botched joke" about President Bush.

Lost in the debate about whether Kerry meant what came out of his mouth was the fact that what he said was largely true. Americans who attend college and have good employment options after graduation are unlikely to sign up for free tours of the Sunni Triangle. People join the military for a variety of reasons, of course, but since the Iraq war turned ugly, the all-volunteer Army has been lowering educational standards, raising enlistment bonuses, and looking past criminal records. The lack of better choices is a larger and larger factor in the choice of military service. Our troops in Iraq may not see themselves as cannon fodder or victims of presidential misjudgments, but that doesn't mean they're not.

Reality No. 3, closely related to No. 2 and following directly from No. 1, is that the American lives lost in Iraq have been lives wasted. Barack Obama crossed this boundary on his first trip to Iowa as an announced candidate when he declared at a rally, "We ended up launching a war that should have never been authorized and should have never been waged and to which we have now spent $400 billion and have seen over 3,000 lives of the bravest young Americans wasted." With lightning speed, Obama said he had misspoken and apologized to military families.

John McCain used the same proscribed term when he announced his candidacy on Late Night With David Letterman last week. "We've wasted a lot of our most precious treasure, which is American lives." This was a strange admission, given McCain's advocacy of a surge bigger than Bush's. In any case, McCain followed Obama by promptly regretting his choice of words. (The patriotically correct term for losing parts of your body in a pointless war in Mesopotamia is, of course, "sacrifice.") These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

A fourth and final near-certainty, which is in some ways the hardest for politicians to admit, is that America is losing or has already lost the Iraq war. The United States is the strongest nation in the history of the world and does not think of itself as coming in second in two-way contests. When it does so, it is slow to accept that it has been beaten. American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured. Even today, American politicians tend not to describe Vietnam as a straightforward defeat. Something similar is happening in Iraq, where the most that leaders typically say is that we "risk" losing and must not do so.

Democrats avoid the truth about the tragedy in Iraq for fear of being labeled unpatriotic or unsupportive of the troops. Republicans avoid it for fear of being blamed for the disaster or losing defense and patriotism as cards to play against Democrats. Politicians on both sides believe that acknowledging the unpleasant truth will weaken them and undermine those still attempting to persevere on our behalf. But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

http://www.slate.com/id/2161385/fr/rss/

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: leveller (#0)

It is seldom easy to admit you were wrong—so let me repeat what I first acknowledged in Slate in January 2004, that I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war. But what is awkward for columnists is nearly impossible for self-justifying politicians, who resist acknowledging error at a glandular level.

But nations and individuals do not grow weaker by confronting the truth. They grow weaker by avoiding it and coming to believe their own evasions.

Jacob Weisberg lost me in this article. Talk about someone being evasive and not confronting truth about the tragic consequences of his and other MSM journalists' war mongering. He thinks he can explain away his bloody hands with "I am sorry to have given even qualified support to the war." And worse, he believes politicians could also gain absolution with admission of error.

A war built on lies is not simply "a mistake" to explain away with a breezy "I'm sorry."

I think Mr. Jacob Weisberg and the other war mongers should be in shackles today and their family's assets should be cleared out to the last dime and assigned to the Iraqi peoples.

Here's some of Jacob Weisberg's comments to attest to his great "awakening" about the Iraq War - NOT. All Jacob is pissed about is that the illegal war of lies was not handled more competently so the ratio of costs benefits was more favorable - not that he personally expended any "costs" but that's beside the point. As a side note, Jacob Weisberg - like most neocons - has a face that could stop a train - ugly face, ugly heart.

http://www.busybusybusy. com/b3_arc_04_0112.shtml

"I should have realized that the administration's mendacity and incompetence rendered it unfit to manage the transformation of Iraq, but was blinded by enthusiasm for Saddam Hussein's accelerated demise."

"The question here is whether our early pro-war stance was correct given the predictable ratio of costs to benefits - a relevant calculation for a non- defensive war - and I'm not seeing a strong case for that at this point."

"I supported the war despite clear indications the Bush administration would bungle the job, but even though little has happened since that wasn't predictable then, I'm now wondering whether it was worth the cost. "

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   9:43:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: leveller (#0)

These episodes all followed Kinsley's law of gaffes. The mistake Kerry, Obama, and McCain made was telling the truth before retreating to the approved banality and euphemism

I agree with this part for sure.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-03-08   11:32:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: scrapper2 (#1)

I think Mr. Jacob Weisberg and the other war mongers should be in shackles today and their family's assets should be cleared out to the last dime and assigned to the Iraqi peoples.

Well, then, we can expect him to strike you from his jury panel!

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   13:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: scrapper2 (#1)

"I should have realized that the administration's mendacity and incompetence rendered it unfit to manage the transformation of Iraq, but was blinded by enthusiasm for Saddam Hussein's accelerated demise."

"The question here is whether our early pro-war stance was correct given the predictable ratio of costs to benefits - a relevant calculation for a non- defensive war - and I'm not seeing a strong case for that at this point."

"I supported the war despite clear indications the Bush administration would bungle the job, but even though little has happened since that wasn't predictable then, I'm now wondering whether it was worth the cost. "

Good stuff. There is something fundamentally wrong with that old saying, "the devil is in the details." Most often it's not. Most often the devil is in the plan itself.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   13:49:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: leveller, ALL (#0)

American political and military leaders were reluctant to acknowledge or utter that they had miscalculated and wasted tens of thousands of lives in Vietnam, many of them after failure and withdrawal were assured.

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:03:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BeAChooser, Burkeman1 (#5) (Edited)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Oye vay. And why am I not surprised by your BOT cookie cutter reponse.

Uh huh - the Vietnam War was lost by the librul media and anti-war movement and if only those 2 thingies did not exist, we would have whooped the North Vietnamese asses and their communist Chinese benefactors' asses something fierce. We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home, but victory was at hand if only we had stayed loooonger.

And here's the rub, by now we'd be engaging in free trade with a thriving democracy if it weren't for the librul press and anti-war groups - Ooops. We are engaging in free trade with Vietnam now and our gov't could care less whether the Vietnamese gov't is comprised of communists or pink purple eaters. But it mattered 40 years ago because of...fill in the blanks, BAC...I'll give you a hint...the missing words have the initials, M-I-C.

Get a clue, BAC - an ill begotten war ( faux Gulf of Tonkin incident)has bad results. Similarly it applies to the Iraq War. Or here's something simpler for your mind to ponder as it applies to our various wars for lies - "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear."

P.S. Have you ever fought in a war apart from a war of words in cyberspace, BAC?

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   14:19:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: scrapper2 (#6)

The US "Defeat" in Vietnam (actually a win for the American people in that the empire wasn't expanded) is one of the few achievements of the "Left" in this country. It didn't last though- as DC was back to waging elective wars against hapless weakling countries within a decade.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   14:45:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: scrapper2, ALL (#6)

We would have had to genocide most of Vietnam to get this pyrrhic victory and we would have had 200,000 American soldier body bags come home

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   14:46:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: beachooser (#8)

Apparently you are unaware of the fact that the North Vietnamese commander who accepted the surrender of South Vietnam is on record saying that following Tet, General Giap was ready to sue for peace. He said we could have won the war at that point if we'd only cut the Ho Chi Minh trail and bombed the North. At that point they thought the war was lost. But then they saw the way the American media was presenting Tet, saw the actions of the anti-war movement and saw a weak-willed democRAT president. And knew they only had to wait ... that the American media and anti-war movement would accomplish what they'd been unable to accomplish.

The same profiteering U.S. leadership will be forced into a defeat in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Only this time, we'll be withdrawing from blatant War Crimes; no questions possible.

(That is your breed, BAC; the War Criminals!)

The "Texas Prayer" -

"Please God, just one more war; we won't squander the money, this time."


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-03-08   14:56:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: BeAChooser (#8)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- myths.net/buitin.htm

The important part is:

"Q: What about the results? A: Our losses were staggering and a complete surprise;. Giap later told me that Tet had been a military defeat, though we had gained the planned political advantages when Johnson agreed to negotiate and did not run for re-election. The second and third waves in May and September were, in retrospect, mistakes. Our forces in the South were nearly wiped out by all the fighting in 1968. It took us until 1971 to re-establish our presence, but we had to use North Vietnamese troops as local guerrillas. If the American forces had not begun to withdraw under Nixon in 1969, they could have punished us severely. We suffered badly in 1969 and 1970 as it was. "

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   15:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: historian1944 (#10)

DC got their Victory in Vietnam and did pull out. Then the North invaded the South and the puppet government collapsed in two months and its multi billion dollar "highly trained" military equipped with the latest gizmos and technology disintergrated overnight- as the South regime was then- as it was always- an illegitimate puppet regime of a foreign power.

Here's a hint- the side that doesn't need foreign troops to prop them up - is always going to win.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: BeAChooser (#5)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat. Because they dishonestly portrayed the results of the Tet offensive in 1968 as a defeat rather than the immense victory it was. Even the North Vietnamese have ackknowledged this. But not the American left. And the media and anti-warriors have been doing the same thing since day one of the Iraq war. Turning victory into defeat. Congratulations...

Victory was always around the corner for the British, too. They won all the battles, and they could have won the war, had they only made up their mind to devote enough troops, and to lose enough troops, to kill all of the American colonists. Yet the radical whig Brits, such as James Burgh and Catharine Macaulay, and the Tories like Burke, who wrote and spoke out against the war with America, are recognized today as the best friends Britain had during that period.

If the American left engineered the defeat in Vietnam, then you owe them your thanks, for they temporarily halted the US government's expensive, wasteful, bloody, and illegal campaign in the far east, and gave us all some room to breathe before Americans forgot the real lessons of Vietnam, and got fooled again by another Texas President.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   15:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: leveller (#12)

Edmond Burke's record on the "colony troubles" was right every step of the way . . . but that didn't stop the ignorant morons who advanced Brtain down the path to first alienation from the colonies to outright rebellion and warfare from blaming him for being right. Burke pointed out the folly of the Crown's actions every step of the way- from the needless acts of taxation in the 1760's to absolutely counter productive and gratuitous insulting measures taken in response to mild resistance to such acts to denouncing the folly of the war itself (which he said was "unwinnable" in any practical sense in that even if the Crown "won" it would only serve to lay the foundation for later independence as the hatred engendered in achieving such a "victory" could never be overcome.)

It's funny- but the same morons who lead the Crown into war against her colonies and who had been wrong every step of the way had the nerve to call Burke a "traitor" for being right.

By the way- given that the strongest and richest superpower of its time- with the largest navy the world had ever seen- with a population about 20 times that of colonial America was unable to "Win" against only a third of that population that supported Independence- how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941?

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:44:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: BeAChooser (#5)

What kind of victory are we winning in Iraq?

Which side are we even fighting for?

Iraq and Vietnam are not really comparable. In Vietnam we knew who the enemy was and knew who we were fighting for, the South Vietnamese. In Iraq the enemy is vaguely defined as the "terrorists" and we are vaguely fighting for the "good" guys, whoever they are. Let's face it, we are there based on lies to further personal self interests of those in the Bush Administration, namely Dick Cheney and his interests in Haliburton.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2007-03-08   15:48:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: RickyJ (#14) (Edited)

It's larger than just Bush and Cheney's bank accounts. It is the bank accounts of thousands and thousands of people and their hangers on . . . the bank accounts of the Houses of powerful American families that we are talking about. It is also a bureaucratic juggernaught that demands something to do- like wage war at all times. We have a HUGE government apparat that exists for soeley the puropose of waging elective foreign wars and administration of the aftermath. And not just bureaucratic- but also in our "media" and "think tanks". An entire parasitical intellectual class has been hired by these interests to gloss over what is rank self interest and greed and murder and theft with high falutin lies about spreading "Democracy" and "global markets" and "human rights". All crap to mask what is basically a policy of never ending war motivated soley by greed and self interest. Our DC Oligarchy is very good at (and spends a lot of money) dressing up their evil in white silk robes and calling it good.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   15:59:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Burkeman1 (#13)

how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941?

They would never have tried.

Nowadays, they could do it, and it would be easy. They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: leveller (#12)

As based on lies as Vietnam was . . . it never approached the level of lies we are witnessing now in regard to the ME wars in Iraq an Afghanistan. Just one comparison- the level of illegitmacy of the puppet regimes. At the very least, the Quisling regime (actually- regimes plural as the US burned through a number of them) of South Vietnam had a modicum kernal of genuine support among some powerful families of former colonial administrators for the French and Catholic converts . . . Iraq doesn't even have that among the Sunni or the Shia (the Kurds being of no help other than death squad volunteers). South Vietnam's quisling army- though always poor- was actually able to fight on its own. Iraq's "Army" doesn't even merit the term. Finally- South Vietnam stood for 2 years on its own with no American troops other than a few advisors. Iraq's government would literally not last two days without massive US troop presence. Finally- US troops and Western media could do things like- oh- get a cup of coffee at a caffe in Saigon and not worry about being killed by an outraged vengence seeking populace. That cannot be done on Haifa street in Baghdad- right outside the Green Zone. This war was ALWAYS lost before it even started. It was lost because Iraqis had myriad justified reasons to DESPISE this country even before the first American soldier set foot inside Iraq in 2003 and this hatred had nothing to do with their support or lack of support for Saddam Hussein.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   16:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: leveller (#16)

They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

lol

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   16:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: leveller (#16)

They would start by taking away American Idol and Extreme Makeover, and we'd be throwing ourselves off bridges.

Then they could mop-up the remaining 0.1% by shutting off the electricity & water for 24 hours.

Most of us have more sources of aggravation than we need and 4um is one source that twists my innards. I’m tracking each and every keystroke at that forum. Anti-Zionists have nowhere to hide. Free speech? I don’t think so.
Aaron - El Pee poster

Esso  posted on  2007-03-08   16:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Burkeman1 (#17)

As based on lies as Vietnam was . . . it never approached the level of lies we are witnessing now in regard to the ME wars in Iraq an Afghanistan.

Not much lying was required. Two decades of cold war rhetoric had already prepared the US people for a battle with the Communist Menace. But the phony GWOT is another matter, entirely. A new vocabulary was required ("enemy combatant," "islamofascist," etc.) and a whole new outlook was necessary to imprint upon the Murikan Mind. Lotsa lyin' needed.

If all goes well, for the NeoCons, the need for lying will decrease substantially, because the lies they are telling now will become self- fulfilling prophecies. The GWOT may very well succeed in creating a global enemy, perhaps even a monolithic one.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:54:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Esso (#19)

Then they could mop-up the remaining 0.1% by shutting off the electricity & water for 24 hours.

The only stalwart resistance would come from the Unabomber.

leveller  posted on  2007-03-08   16:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Esso (#19)

If Americans had to live without electricity or running water for a week (think of that for a moment- what that means to the quality of your life if you had say a three year old, a newborn, and your elderly parents living with you in a three room apartment 4th floor walk up in Baghdad) they would dawn black pajamas and straw hats and wave around Mao's little red book while burning down their libraries is they thought it would turn the boob tube and the AC back on.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   16:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Burkeman1 (#22)

Yeah...I know.

Most of us have more sources of aggravation than we need and 4um is one source that twists my innards. I’m tracking each and every keystroke at that forum. Anti-Zionists have nowhere to hide. Free speech? I don’t think so.
Aaron - El Pee poster

Esso  posted on  2007-03-08   17:02:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: historian1944, BeAChooser, Burkeman1, leveller, Ricky J (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

a. Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter wrap themselves with glee using the words of Colonel Bui Tin and parading the reason he gives for America missing out on winning one heck of noble war as the last word on the subject - like this Colonel Bui Tin is the official oracle on the Vietnam War..

What Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter and Michael Savage and Mark Levine fail to tell everyone is that Colonel Bui Tin is a former communist "true believer" recently turned disenchanted vocal anti-communist dissent who lives in exile in Paris. Hmmm...let's think about the reasons why Colonel Bui Tin would be motivated to say what he said in an interview with the Wall Street Journal ( HA!)...capitalism symbol par excellence....

Here's a little background on the good colonel - and by the way he was a communist army journalist during the Vietnam War and he served on general staff of the NV army so knows the value of good propaganda - he stepped into a moment of history by chance due to circumstance and not because he was an experienced battle hardened war officer for the NV.

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

Also consider the fact that the Vietnamese had a history of fighting outsiders for long stretches of time - 1000 years against the Chinese dynasties - how long were we prepared to bleed in Vietnam and fight for its "independence" or whatever we thought we were doing there.

They didn't want us there. They did not like the corrupt S. Vietnamese gov't we were supporting. We left when we did because we should not been been in that stupid war in the first place. What a waste of blood and treasure and an example of our shameful use chemical weapons against civilian populations. That war has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

But worse, we did not even learn a lesson from that grotesque mistake.

When GWB did his WTO thumping for communist Vietnam this January, I felt relieved that many of the parents who gave up their sons for that elective Vietnam war "to fight communism" were not alive to see our gov't sponsoring communist Vietnam into the WTO. Pathetic. Nor were they alive to read newly released documents that showed LBJ lied us into the war due to a faux Tonkin Incident.

Here's a little current info on Colonel Bui Tin.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1992/WR92/ASW-15.htm ( Human Rights Watch)

b. Here's some background info on new behind the scenes docs about the Vietnam War quagmire and also some info regarding what MacNamara said about the reasons why Vietnam and why this also so similar to the Iraq debacle.

http://newsaigonsanjose.blogspot.co m/

Nov. 17, 2005

"On the American wars in Vietnam and Iraq"

Newly-released secret documents reveal that the Bush administration is struggling with the same issues that faced the administration of Richard Nixon.

Full text of NYT article here - cut and paste the url:

http://www. >http://nytimes.com/2005/11/17/international/17nixon.html? ex=1173502800&en=9c5c9f67c421ed62&ei=5070

"Vietnam Archive Casts a Shadow Across Decades" Thom Shanker and David Stout

WASHINGTON, Nov. 16, 2005 - White House advisers convene secret sessions about the political dangers of revelations that American troops committed atrocities in the war zone, and about whether the president can delicately intervene in the investigation. In the face of an increasingly unpopular war, they wonder at the impact on support at home. The best way out of the war, they agree, is to prop up a new government that they hope can unite the fractured foreign land.

The National Archives and Records Administration on Wednesday released 50,000 pages of previously classified documents from the Nixon administration that reveal how all of that president's men wrestled with issues that eerily parallel problems facing the Bush administration.

There are many significant differences between the wars in Vietnam and in Iraq - a point that senior administration officials make at any opportunity. But in tone and content, the Nixon-era debate about the impact of that generation's war - and of war-crimes trials - on public support for the military effort and for White House domestic initiatives strikes many familiar chords.

As the Nixon administration was waging a war and trying to impose a peace in South Vietnam, it worried intensely about how the 1968 massacre at My Lai of South Vietnamese civilians by American troops would hurt the war effort, both at home and in Asia.

My Lai "could prove acutely embarrassing to the United States" and could affect the Paris peace talks, Defense Secretary Melvin R. Laird warned President Nixon. "Domestically, it will provide grist for the mills of antiwar activists," Mr. Laird said.

Documents show how the Nixon White House fretted over politics and perception, much as the Bush White House has done during the Iraq war, and that it feared that mistreatment of civilians could be ruinous to its image.

"The handling of this case to date has strictly observed the code of military justice," Henry A. Kissinger, then the national security adviser, wrote in a memo to the Nixon aide H. R. Haldeman. Mr. Kissinger said the court-martial of Lt. William L. Calley Jr., who was implicated in the massacre and ultimately convicted, would alleviate press concerns about a cover-up.

Moreover, President Nixon believed that images could be changed, as the presidential aide John R. Brown III wrote to Mr. Kissinger. "Secretary Laird's press is a measure of the good things a onetime hard-liner can earn by playing the dove for the liberal press," Mr. Brown wrote on Jan. 14, 1970.

With so many academic studies, popular histories and memoirs on the bookshelf - and more than seven million pages of Nixon documents released since 1986 by the National Archives in an ongoing declassification process - historians combing over the files on Wednesday said they were looking for golden needles in a haystack more than mining a previously unknown vein of precious metals.

The new release of documents included files on early American assessments of Israel's nuclear program, debates about supporting Pakistan during its war with India in 1971 and the superpower rivalry with Moscow.

Some of the Vietnam documents contain details about how the Nixon administration tried to prop up South Vietnam's president, Nguyen Van Thieu, behind the scenes while portraying him publicly as a courageous leader, as President Johnson had done.

In language that resonates with the positions of the Bush administration with regard to building a new government in Baghdad, the Nixon White House said in May 1969 that it wanted to establish in Vietnam "procedures for political choice that give each significant group a real opportunity to participate in the political life of the nation."

"What the United States wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing," said an internal White House planning-initiative memo. "What North Vietnam wants for South Vietnam is not the important thing. What is important is what the people of South Vietnam want for themselves."

The papers illustrate, too, how as late as 1969 American leaders really did not know very much about the psychology of North Vietnam - or, for that matter, about sentiments in the South.

In March 1969, while the Paris peace talks were under way, American officials worried about how strongly to react to a rocket attack on Saigon. Secretary of State William P. Rogers cabled American diplomats about the decision not to retaliate militarily against the North.

"Plainly, we shall need to have the most careful and continuing readings of the South Vietnamese temperature," Mr. Rogers wrote, reflecting concerns in Washington that the Saigon government would suspect it was being sold out.

Around that time, the State Department suggested that the American negotiator Henry Cabot Lodge soften his language in conveying American displeasure to the Hanoi delegation.

"We prefer this language not because it is less ambiguous than the original version but, on the contrary, because it is more ambiguous - and hence more flexible - as to our response," a State Department cable said.

That July, President Thieu fussed over Washington's editing of a speech he was to make recounting all the concessions that had been made to the Communists and calling again for general elections. A secret State Department wire to Saigon and Paris said an aide to Mr. Thieu, in describing his boss's annoyance, "used a phrase which, translated into English, comes out like 'Secretary Rogers has deflowered my speech.' "

President Nixon praised the July 11 speech as "a comprehensive, statesmanlike and eminently fair proposal for a political settlement in South Vietnam."

The documents show an internal debate in Washington over what effects the death of Ho Chi Minh, the North Vietnamese leader, in September 1969, would have.

Mr. Kissinger told the president that Ho's death would hurt North Vietnam's morale but would probably not soften its resolve. But a State Department cable to its diplomats around that time, when the department was headed by Mr. Kissinger's rival, Mr. Rogers, had a different perspective.

"We are, of course, uncertain ourselves of consequences of Ho's death," it read in part. "We are handicapped in our own analysis by paucity of good intelligence information on North Vietnamese intentions and internal politics."

During the summer and fall of 1969, a great effort was made by the Nixon White House to intervene in a military investigation of a group of Army Special Forces who had been accused of killing a suspected double agent in Nha Trang.

In a memorandum to Bryce Harlow, a Nixon aide, on Sept. 26, 1969, Mr. Kissinger counseled him about how to deal with the concerns of Congress. "The main substantive point you should make," Mr. Kissinger wrote, "is that the president is very concerned about the long-term implications of this case and that he is most anxious to dispose of it in a way which will do the least damage to our national security, the prestige and discipline of our armed services and to preserve our future freedom of action in the clandestine area."

"This is clearly a sign of things to come - and we are really going to be hit," Mr. Haldeman wrote to Mr. Kissinger, urging a quiet resolution. "Anything we can do - even at this late date?"

****The blogger who links to the NYT article says the following:***

The similarities are eerie. There are big differences to be sure. But note the similarities:

In 1995, former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, the architect of the American war in Vietnam, looked back and listed the major reasons for the failure of U.S. foreign policy there.

Here are some of them:

--We misjudged the intention of our adversaries and we exaggerated the danger to the United States.

--We viewed the people and the leaders in terms of our own experience. We saw in them a thirst for and a determination to fight for freedom and democracy. We totally misjudged the political forces within the country.

--We underestimated the power of nationalism to motive a people to fight and die for their beliefs and values – and we continue to do so today in many parts of the world.

--Our misjudgments of friend and foe alike reflected profound ignorance of the history, culture and politics of the people in the area and the personalities and habits of their leaders.

--We failed to recognize the limits of modern, high technology military equipment, forces and doctrine in confronting unconventional, highly motivated people's movements.

--We failed to adapt our military tactics to the task of winning the hearts and minds of the people from a totally different culture.

--We failed to draw Congress and the American people into a full and frank discussion and debate of the pros and cons of a large-scale military involvement before we initiated the action.

--After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

--We did not recognize that neither our people nor its leaders are omniscient.

--We did not hold to the principle that US military action – other than in response to direct threats to our own security – should be carried out only in conjunction with multinational forces fully and not merely cosmetically, by the international community.

--We failed to understand that in international affairs, as in other aspects of life, there may be problems in which there is no immediate solution.

I am not the first to say this, but those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat it.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   17:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: scrapper2 (#24)

After the action got underway and unanticipated events forces us off our planned course, we failed to retain popular support in part because we did not explain fully what was happening and why we were doing what we did. We had not prepared the public to understand the complex events we faced and how to react constructively to the need for changes in course as the nation confronted uncharted seas and an alien environment.

In other words- they lied, repeatedly - about everything- from troops increases (like they are doing now with the lies about "temporary surges") to body counts, to civilian casualties, to the nature of the insurgency itself (tried to paint it as merely a limited communist conspiracy among a tiny minority and not a broad popular nationalist movement to defeat a puppet regime and end foreign occupation- like they are doing now in regard to Iraq.) The lies added up and people got sick of it. As my father, who was almost sent over to Vietnam in 1969 after being called up in the reserves said at the time, by the late 60's- after years of lies from the government and Media - NO ONE believed anything that was said about that war any longer.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   17:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: BeAChooser (#5)

The American left (media and anti-war movement) are unable to acknowledge that they played a key role in that defeat....

Was your dad a piece of shit coward like you BAC? Was he a Vietnam war- mongerer that didn't have the guts to go over and put his money where his mouth is? Surly that yellow streak down your back is genetic.

Once more you show your true support for the troops. The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a complete fabrication responsible for the deaths of more than 50k American men and yet you choose to focus your anger on the American left and their reporting of Tet? It was the American left that got us in that war you fucking moron, although being the socialist, big government loving republican you are, I can understand why you would make the mistake of thinking Kennedy and LBJ were conservatives.

anti-warriors

You'd know all about being an anti-warrior wouldn't you.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   17:54:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: leveller (#21)

The only stalwart resistance would come from the Unabomber.

laughing again.

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   18:06:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Hayek Fan (#26)

although being the socialist, big government loving republican you are, I can understand why you would make the mistake of thinking Kennedy and LBJ were conservatives.

so true!

christine  posted on  2007-03-08   18:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Hayek Fan (#26)

Its fascinating that a "new left" had to be created to even opposse the Vietnam War. Resistance to that boondoggle of an evil war should have come from the Old Right in this country- and there were some peeps from that side against it- but for the most part the "Right" in this country had by then been totally co- opted by CIA fronts like Willian Buckley and "National Review" and real conservatives had long been purged. So we have, to this day, morons who think they are "Rightwing" thinking that the Vietnam war was some sort of noble crusade and not what it was- a disgusting civilian murdering spree of an elective war fought by and for the interests of Big DC Centralized Government and its parasite MIC.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-08   18:24:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: historian1944, ALL (#10)

The below site has the Wall Street Journal interview of Colonel Bui Tin on 3 August 1995. I think this is what you're referencing, since he's the guy who accepted the surrender. It's posted elsewhere also, this site was convenient. He doesn't say that they were ready to sue for terms, but it is an interesting interview.

http://www.viet- http://myths.net/buitin.htm

Pardon me, you are correct. It was General Giap, commander of the North's forces, who admitted in his memoirs that his army was shattered in Tet and that he was ready to sue for peace. He said he changed his mind after watching American news programs that proclaimed the Viet Cong the winners in the TET offensive and after watching the American antiwar protesters attack their president and attack the war effort.

*********

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1113369/posts

"Analysis: A mini-Tet offensive in Iraq?

by Arnaud de Borchgrave

WASHINGTON, April 6 (UPI)

... snip ...

Before plunging into an orgy of erroneous and invidious historical parallels between Iraq and Vietnam, a reminder about what led to the U.S. defeat in Southeast Asia is timely.

Iraq will only be another Vietnam if the home front collapses, as it did following the Tet offensive, which began on the eve of the Chinese New Year, Jan. 31, 1968. The surprise attack was designed to overwhelm some 70 cities and towns, and 30 other strategic objectives simultaneously. By breaking a previously agreed truce for Tet festivities, master strategist Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap in Hanoi calculated that South Vietnamese troops would be caught with defenses down.

After the first few hours of panic, the South Vietnamese troops reacted fiercely. They did the bulk of the fighting and took some 6,000 casualties. Vietcong units not only did not reach a single one of their objectives -- except when they arrived by taxi at the U.S. Embassy in Saigon, blew their way through the wall into the compound and guns blazing made it into the lobby before they were wiped out by U.S. Marines -- but they lost some 50,000 killed and at least that many wounded. Giap had thrown some 70,000 troops into a strategic gamble that was also designed to overwhelm 13 of the 16 provincial capitals and trigger a popular uprising. But Tet was an unmitigated military disaster for Hanoi and its Vietcong troops in South Vietnam. Yet that was not the way it was reported in U.S. and other media around the world. It was television's first war. And some 50 million Americans at home saw the carnage of dead bodies in the rubble, and dazed Americans running around.

As the late veteran war reporter Peter Braestrup documented in "Big Story" -- a massive, two-volume study of how Tet was covered by American reporters -- the Vietcong offensive was depicted as a military disaster for the United States. By the time the facts emerged a week or two later from RAND Corp. interrogations of prisoners and defectors, the damage had been done. Conventional media wisdom had been set in concrete. Public opinion perceptions in the United States changed accordingly.

RAND made copies of these POW interrogations available. But few reporters seemed interested. In fact, the room where they were on display was almost always empty. Many Vietnamese civilians who were fence sitters or leaning toward the Vietcong, especially in the region around Hue City, joined government ranks after they witnessed Vietcong atrocities. Several mass graves were found with some 4,000 unarmed civil servants and other civilians, stabbed or with skulls smashed by clubs. The number of communist defectors, known as "chieu hoi," increased fourfold. And the "popular uprising" anticipated by Giap, failed to materialize. The Tet offensive also neutralized much of the clandestine communist infrastructure.

As South Vietnamese troops fought Vietcong remnants in Cholon, the predominantly Chinese twin city of Saigon, reporters, sipping drinks in the rooftop bar of the Caravelle Hotel, watched the fireworks 2 miles away. America's most trusted newsman, CBS' Walter Cronkite, appeared for a standup piece with distant fires as a backdrop. Donning helmet, Cronkite declared the war lost. It was this now famous television news piece that persuaded President Johnson six weeks later, on March 31, not to run. His ratings had plummeted from 80 percent when he assumed the presidency upon Kennedy's death to 30 percent after Tet. His handling of the war dropped to 20 percent, his credibility shot to pieces.

Until Tet, a majority of Americans agreed with Presidents Kennedy and Johnson that failure was not an option. It was Kennedy who changed the status of U.S. military personnel from advisers to South Vietnamese troops to full-fledged fighting men. By the time of Kennedy's assassination in Nov. 22, 1963, 16,500 U.S. troops had been committed to the war. Johnson escalated all the way to 542,000. But defeat became an option when Johnson decided the war was unwinnable and that he would lose his bid for the presidency in November 1968. Hanoi thus turned military defeat into a priceless geopolitical victory.

With the Vietcong wiped out in the Tet offensive, North Vietnamese regulars moved south down the Ho Chi Minh trails through Laos and Cambodia to continue the war. Even Giap admitted in his memoirs that news media reporting of the war and the anti-war demonstrations that ensued in America surprised him. Instead of negotiating what he called a conditional surrender, Giap said they would now go the limit because America's resolve was weakening and the possibility of complete victory was within Hanoi's grasp.

Hanoi's Easter offensive in March 1972 was another disaster for the communists. Some 70,000 North Vietnamese troops were wiped out -- by the South Vietnamese who did all the fighting. The last American soldier left Vietnam in March 1973. And the chances of the South Vietnamese army being able to hack it on its own were reasonably good. With one proviso: Continued U.S. military assistance with weapons and hardware, including helicopters. But Congress balked, first by cutting off military assistance to Cambodia, which enabled Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge communists to take over, which, in turn, was followed by a similar Congressional rug pulling from under the South Vietnamese, that led to rapid collapse of morale in Saigon.

The unraveling, with Congress pulling the string, was so rapid that even Giap was caught by surprise. As he recounts in his memoirs, Hanoi had to improvise a general offensive -- and then rolled into Saigon two years before they had reckoned it might become possible.

That is the real lesson for the U.S. commitment to Iraq. Whatever one thought about the advisability of Operation Iraqi Freedom, the United States is there with 100,000 troops and a solid commitment to endow Iraq with a democratic system of government. While failure is not an option for Bush, it clearly is for Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Mass., who called Iraq the president's Vietnam. It is, of course, no such animal. But it could become so if Congressional resolve dissolves.

Bui Tin, who served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, received South Vietnam's unconditional surrender on April 30, 1975. In an interview with the Wall Street Journal after his retirement, he made clear the anti-war movement in the United States, which led to the collapse of political will in Washington, was "essential to our strategy."

Visits to Hanoi by Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and various church ministers "gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses."

America lost the war, concluded Bui Tin, "because of its democracy. Through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." Kennedy should remember that Vietnam was the war of his brother who saw the conflict in the larger framework of the Cold War and Nikita Khrushchev's threats against West Berlin. It would behoove Kennedy to see Iraq in the larger context of the struggle to bring democracy, not only to Iraq, but the entire Middle East.

(Arnaud de Borchgrave covered Tet as Newsweek's chief foreign correspondent and had seven tours in Vietnam between 1951 under the French and 1972.)

*************

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:05:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Burkeman1, ALL (#13)

how comical is it to think that the Japs or the Germans were going to invade and "take over" an America of 180 million strong and the most industrialized land mass in the world in 1941

ROTFLOL! Priceless.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Burkeman1 (#29)

Its fascinating that a "new left" had to be created to even opposse the Vietnam War.

But was it a new left or was it the grassroots genuine left and the Old Right? It seems to me that, just as today, the two-party fraud and their butt-sniffing sychophants were all pro-war.

So we have, to this day, morons who think they are "Rightwing" thinking that the Vietnam war was some sort of noble crusade and not what it was- a disgusting civilian murdering spree of an elective war fought by and for the interests of Big DC Centralized Government and its parasite MIC.

I chaulk this up to an uneducated populace. My guess is that nine out of ten "conservatives" have never even heard of Russell Kirk, much less Edmund Burke. Their idea of a conservative is Rush Limbaugh and the modern day republican party.

Having said that, while I agree with much of Kirks comments on cultural conservatism, I much prefer Bastiat, John Stuart Mill (before he became a socialist), Hayek, Rothbard, and von Mises over that of Russell Kirk

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:07:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: scrapper2, ALL (#24)

I believe he's telling his American benefactors what they want to hear when he gives the reason he does.

He doesn't appear to have said anything that isn't true. The NVA and Viet Cong forces were shattered in Tet. That's a documented fact. They didn't recover for years. Again fact. The American and South Vietnamese forces had successfully cut off access to the south through central Vietnam. Fact. Any effort by the North hinged on the Ho Chi Minh trail. Fact. Nothing would have prevented us from cutting Laos in two by building a system of forts to do the same thing as was done in Vietnam. Fact. Westmoreland had a plan to do so. Fact. Johnson prevented it. Fact. And bombing the North would have been the capstone. Fact. Plus, it wasn't just Bui Tin saying this, Giap himself admitted it in his memoirs. And the North Vietnamese still celebrate the anti-war movement and it's major figures ... like Kerry and Fonda. Sorry, I don't think what you *believe* has any basis in reality, scrapper.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#24)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   19:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: HOUNDDAWG, Hayek Fan, ALL (#26)

Hayek Fan - Was your dad a piece of shit coward like you BAC?

Is this another example of that respectful debate you were talking about, HOUNDDAWG?

And say, Hayek, where'd you disappear to? We were having such a lovely debate about the collapse of the WTC towers and the John Hopkins Iraq mortality studies. Then you just disappeared. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: historian1944, ALL (#34)

What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have?

Do a web browser search under the phrase "paper tiger".

For example:

http://www.jfednepa.org/mark%20silverberg/papertiger.html "Al Qaeda and its global Islamic terrorist affiliates came to the conclusion that America's weakness stemmed from a post-Vietnam conviction that required future wars to be short, antiseptic and casualty free. Bin Laden summed up his perception of Americans in an interview with ABC News reporter John Miller, published in Esquire in 1998: “After leaving Afghanistan, the Muslim fighters headed for Somalia and prepared for a long battle thinking that the Americans were like the Russians. The youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers and realized, more than before, that the American soldier was a paper tiger and after a few blows……would run in defeat.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/contributors/robbins111601.shtml "Bin Laden and his planners were inspired by prior examples of United States retreat, most notably the defeat in Vietnam, but more proximately the U.S. withdrawal from Somalia in 1994 following the disastrous attempt to capture Somali warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid, and the pullout from Lebanon after the bombing of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1984. The impression had grown that the U.S. was a paper tiger. American forces had a technological edge and massive firepower, but if a foe could inflict a bloody nose, the skittish American public would demand withdrawal, and politicians would hold hearings to place blame. As Syrian Foreign Minister Abdel Halim Khaddam said to American negotiators after the Beirut bombings, "The United States is short of breath. You can always wait them out."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2006/02/what_newly_released_al_qaeda_l_1.html "The Combating Terrorism Center at West Point has posted on its web site several al Qaeda-related documents that have been "captured in the course of operations supporting the GWOT." Two letters, dated September 30, 1993 and May 24, 1994, relate directly to al Qaeda operations in Somalia. The letters are from "Hassan al-Tajiki" to the "African Corps." Assuming their authenticity, the letters are consistent with the propaganda of bin Laden in the 1990s that Mogadishu and other events showed that America was "a paper tiger" and "a weak horse." He and his followers would use such imagery as a recruiting tool for al Qaeda, "the strong horse" in bin Laden's words, throughout the 1990s."

Here's one of those two letters: http://www.ctc.usma.edu/aq_600053-3.asp "the Somali experience confirmed the spurious nature of American power and that it has not recovered from the Vietnam complex. It fears getting bogged down in a real war that would reveal its psychological collapse at the level of personnel and leadership. Since Vietnam America has been seeking easy battles that are completely guaranteed."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   19:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: BeAChooser (#35)

Then you just disappeared. ROTFLOL

Liar. I didn't just disappear, nor did I debate you over the WTC towers. My only comment about the WTC towers was about how you refused to accept any information from anyone concerning the towers because they didn't meet your idea of expertise on the subject, while at the same time presenting me with the rants of unknown bloggers and telling me it's evidence of why the study was wrong.

I made it quite plain why I chose to end our conversation concerning the John Hopkins study. I chose to believe that the John Hoplins School of Public Health would not risk their worldwide reputation as the leader in public health in order to play gotcha with the Bush administration. I told you why I felt this way. You chose to believe differently. On top of that, you demand that I answer questions that I am not qualified to answer. There was nothing more to be gained from the conversation. It had turned into the equivalent of two children saying, "did not...did too...did not...did too." I've got better things to do with my time, even if you don't. ROTFLOL!

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:41:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: BeAChooser, historian1944, ALL (#36)

So the US is a paper tiger because the American people are not willing to have their children die in far off countries in wars that mean absolutley nothing to anyone but those in Washington DC? I tell you what. You let a country invade the United States and then we'll talk about a paper tiger.

You are the paper tiger BAC. You revel in war as long as you are sitting safe behind your computer in Podunk, USA.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   19:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: historian1944, Burkeman1, BeAChooser (#34) (Edited)

One thing I did note was that the good Colonel's words really didn't match what I'd read in books written by H. John Poole about how the Vietcong fought. With all the digging they did one would think they were in it for the long haul. And the Colonel's talk about wanting to not fight a guerrilla war jarred me too. One of the surest ways to ensure defeat is to try to fight us in the way that we're best at (just ask Hussein in 1991).

I think you've also hit on one of the easier ways to detect a war of choice. If the Vietnamese were willing to fight against subjugation for 1000 years, it's a guarantee that we weren't taking the long view like that. If it was a war of necessity, we would not have had to debate about continuing it. One can imagine that the North Vietnamese didn't have discussions like that about accepting foreign occupation.

The other interesting mental exercise is to answer the question: What discernable impact on US and world affairs did our failure in Vietnam have? I know that Pol Pot can be cited, but for us, what real impact was there after the failure?

Thank you for your sustinct remarks and observations to explain better the ramifications of the glob of information I had included in my previous post. You tie up everything very nicely.

As to your last observation you are especially on point - the whole domino theory and worry about what it represented, the main reason given for sending US forces to Vietnam, a nation several thousands of miles away from us was proven to be by and large empty war mongering rhetoric. As you say - our failure in Vietnam did not have any discernable negative impact either on the USA or on world affairs. Sean Hannity always beats his breast about those poor 3 Million Cambodians that our withdrawal from Vietnam caused but I've never heard Sean fret about the 5 Million Vietnamese casualties that were a direct result of the Vietnam War we waged on their soil. What a hypocritical Bot shill punk.

http://www.vietnam- war.info/casualties/

"Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged."

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   20:02:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#37)

My only comment about the WTC towers was about how you refused to accept any information from anyone concerning the towers because they didn't meet your idea of expertise on the subject, while at the same time presenting me with the rants of unknown bloggers and telling me it's evidence of why the study was wrong.

Actually, what you said is this:

What boggles my mind is that in the WTC debate, BAC refuses to accept any information from a person with a doctorate in physics because he isn't a metallurgist.

And my response was this:

*******

"There is much more to my reason for not believing Steven Jones than his not being a metallurgist. Why try to misstate my views, Hayek? Ex-Professor Jones claims some expertise in the subjects of structures, demolition, steel, fire, concrete, impact, seismology and macro-world physics. Yet, ex-professor Jones spent his entire 30 year career studying sub-atomic particles and cold fusion. Not once in that career did he publish a paper that had anything remotely to do with any of the topics needed to speak authoratively on the WTC.

Furthermore, Professor Jones has been dishonest about a number of subjects. To give you just one example, in speaking about the molten material seen flowing out of the South Tower shortly before it collapsed, he said "In the videos of the molten metal falling from WTC2 just prior to its collapse, it appears consistently orange, not just orange in spots and certainly not silvery." This is untrue. If you watch this video,

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2991254740145858863&q=cameraplanet+9%2F11,

you will see silver color in the stream of material once it gets away from the window. This occurs from 12 seconds in the video to 33 seconds in the video. It is especially clear at about 32 seconds. You'll also see it from 57 seconds to a 67 seconds. And from 74 to 75 seconds, material can be seen pouring from the corner of the tower and that material is very clearly silver, not orange. So Steven Jones is demonstrably lying. Why would you trust such a liar, Hayek? For the same reason you trust Les Roberts?

***********

If you had no response to that perhaps that indicates something ...

I chose to believe that the John Hoplins School of Public Health would not risk their worldwide reputation as the leader in public health in order to play gotcha with the Bush administration. I told you why I felt this way. You chose to believe differently.

My aren't you trusting. Even when the authors virtually admitted that they published the report with a preconceived agenda. When they admitted that they did the interviews with a group of Iraqis who mostly HATE Americans. Even when they ignored clear warning signs that something was amiss in their methods. Even when one of the authors runs for Congress as a democRAT. Even when the authors and those who reviewed the study gave money to democRATS during the election. Even when the Lancet changes its opinion about mortality rates without even commenting on that change. Even when the Lancet rushes the peer review process in, again, an admitted effort to affect the election against the war.

There was nothing more to be gained from the conversation. It had turned into the equivalent of two children saying, "did not...did too...did not...did too."

No, one of those children posted numerous sources ... not just by unnamed bloggers ... that pointed out serious questions about the study. The other just repeated the mantra that John Hopkins surely wouldn't put its *good* reputation at risk by publishing a bogus study.

I've got better things to do with my time, even if you don't.

Like make that respectful remark in post #26?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:08:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#38)

You are the paper tiger BAC. You revel in war as long as you are sitting safe behind your computer in Podunk, USA.

You know nothing about me, HF. But if you want to use this debating tactic in leiu of citing sourced facts, be my guest.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: BeAChooser (#36)

So the idea began in Vietnam that if things got difficult we would just leave. I'm not tracking with that exactly because we did spend 10 years there, and 58K lives before we finally decided to leave. I think that Beirut and Mogadishu would be the object lessons for the paper tiger idea(which seems to be what the National Review and Weekly Standard articles imply. For al Qaida purposes, couldn't it be said that the Reagan and Clinton administrations did more to support the paper tiger idea than Vietnam? It had been nearly a decade after the fall of Saigon before the Marine barracks was attacked in Beirut. It was nearly twenty years after the last helicopter out of Saigon before Mogadishu. In either case, we had the opportunity to dispel the "paper tiger" idea, but we chose not to.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   20:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: scrapper2, historian1944, ALL (#39)

the whole domino theory and worry about what it represented, the main reason given for sending US forces to Vietnam, a nation several thousands of miles away from us was proven to be by and large empty war mongering rhetoric.

http://www.januarymagazine.com/features/triumphexc.html "The domino theory was valid. The fear of falling dominoes in Asia was based not on simple-mindedness or paranoia, but rather on a sound understanding of the toppler countries and the domino countries. As Lyndon Johnson pondered whether to send U.S. troops into battle, the evidence overwhelmingly supported the conclusion that South Vietnam's defeat would lead to either a Communist takeover or the switching of allegiance to China in most of the region's countries. Information available since that time has reinforced this conclusion. Vietnam itself was not intrinsically vital to U.S. interests, but it was vital nevertheless because its fate strongly influenced events in other Asian countries that were intrinsically vital, most notably Indonesia and Japan. In 1965, China and North Vietnam were aggressively and resolutely trying to topple the dominoes, and the dominoes were very vulnerable to toppling. Throughout Asia, among those who paid attention to international affairs, the domino theory enjoyed a wide following. If the United States pulled out of Vietnam, Asia's leaders generally believed, the Americans would lose their credibility in Asia and most of Asia would have to bow before China or face destruction, with enormous global repercussions. Every country in Southeast Asia and the surrounding area, aside from the few that were already on China's side, advocated U.S. intervention in Vietnam, and most of them offered to assist the South Vietnamese war effort. The oft-maligned analogy to the Munich agreement of 1938 actually offered a sound prediction of how the dominoes would likely fall: Communist gains in one area would encourage the Communists to seek further conquests in other places, and after each Communist victory the aggressors would enjoy greater assets and the defenders fewer. Further evidence of the domino theory's validity can be found by examining the impact of America's Vietnam policy on other developments in the world between 1965 and the fall of South Vietnam in 1975, developments that would remove the danger of a tumbling of Asian dominoes. Among these were the widening of the Sino-Soviet split, the Chinese Cultural Revolution, and the civil war in Cambodia. America's willingness to hold firm in Vietnam did much to foster anti-Communism among the generals of Indonesia, which was the domino of greatest strategic importance in Southeast Asia. Had the Americans abandoned Vietnam in 1965, these generals most likely would not have seized power from the pro-Communist Sukarno and annihilated the Indonesian Communist Party later that year, as they ultimately did. Communism's ultimate failure to knock over the dominoes in Asia was not an inevitable outcome, independent of events in Vietnam, but was instead the result of obstacles that the United States threw in Communism's path by intervening in Vietnam."

And regards Iraq ...

http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=4867 "I've pointed to quotes from Osama bin Laden and others which have characterized the US as a 'paper tiger', and all anyone has to do is commit to a "long war" and we'll eventually quit. I've attempted to argue that is dangerous perception to leave out there because it gives our enemies hope as well as an expectation of victory. And that translates into less hesitancy to take on the US. To those who found this argument wanting, some special guests to talk about that theory: Muhammad Saadi, a senior leader of Islamic Jihad in the northern West Bank town of Jenin, said the Democrats' talk of withdrawal from Iraq makes him feel "proud." ... snip ... Abu Ayman, an Islamic Jihad leader in Jenin, said he is "emboldened" by those in America who compare the war in Iraq to Vietnam. "[The mujahedeen fighters] brought the Americans to speak for the first time seriously and sincerely that Iraq is becoming a new Vietnam and that they should fix a schedule for their withdrawal from Iraq," boasted Abu Ayman. ... snip ... Islamic Jihad's Saadi, laughing, stated, "There is no chance that the resistance will stop." He said an American withdrawal from Iraq would "prove the resistance is the most important tool and that this tool works. The victory of the Iraqi revolution will mark an important step in the history of the region and in the attitude regarding the United States." Jihad Jaara said an American withdrawal would "mark the beginning of the collapse of this tyrant empire (America)." "Therefore, a victory in Iraq would be a greater defeat for America than in Vietnam." ... snip ... There are some serious issues here which those who wave-off the "paper tiger" meme will be content to ignore. But to those quoted above, it's not a non-issue or an academic exercise. It's reality as they see it. And it is their reality which will drive their future actions whether we agree or not. Don't believe me? Check out the new location of the goal posts: Saadi stated, "Unfortunately I think those who are speaking about a withdrawal will not do so when they are in power and these promises will remain electoral slogans. It is not enough to withdraw from Iraq. They must withdraw from Afghanistan and from every Arab and Muslim land they occupy or have bases."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:16:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: historian1944, ALL (#42)

I'm not tracking with that exactly because we did spend 10 years there, and 58K lives before we finally decided to leave.

The decision to leave was made even before Nixon took office. But to spin the situation, like the democRATS are now trying to spin it, everyone said we would leave with *honor*. And yes, that took many years and many lives. And maybe did delay the spread of Communism somewhat. But ultimately the effort was wasted because then the democRATS didn't follow through with the support they'd promised the South Vietnamese. Just as they may not follow through with any support promised the Iraqi government. The very act of running ultimately shattered the morale of the South. Just as running may shatter the good people of Iraq's morale. The lesson of Vietnam learned by our enemies is that they now think we aren't willing to fight a long war, bloody war and win. But the only thing that will prove that false is to do so. Anything less will just embolden them further. We may lose Iraq but the WOT will not be over. We will just have lost a critical battle in that war.

For al Qaida purposes, couldn't it be said that the Reagan and Clinton administrations did more to support the paper tiger idea than Vietnam?

Certainly, but then that was at a time when this new enemy (terrorism) hadn't really been recognized for the serious threat it could be or become. The seriousness of that threat is only going to grow as more fearsome WMD enter the scene. And ultimately, it was the failure in Vietnam that set the stage for the behavior of Reagan (to a small extent) and more so, Clinton. I wouldn't necessarily include Reagan because he was willing to put it on the line to win. Clinton was not.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   20:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: BeAChooser (#43)

If the domino theory was valid, and the fall of Vietnam would lead to Chinese hegemony in Southeast Asia, why weren't we more concerned that Cuba was becoming Communist, which would lead to all of South America becoming Communist? Why should we be willing to send soldiers to prevent a country thousands of miles away from becoming Communist, but we shouldn't have a problem with a Communist country 90 miles away?

Did lack of media coverage and internal outrage make the Soviets successful in Afghanistan? Did the resistance in Afghanistan need press coverage or discussion in the Russian media to maintain motivation to continue? Where does the belief that all will be well if no one knows what's going on come from?

From the http://WND.com article referenced in the previous post: ""We warned the Americans that this will be their end in Iraq," said Abu Abdullah, considered one of the most important operational members of Hamas' Izzedine al-Qassam Martyrs Brigades, Hamas' declared "resistance" department. "They did not succeed in stealing Iraq's oil, at least not at a level that covers their huge expenses. They did not bring stability. Their agents in the [Iraqi] regime seem to have no chance to survive if the Americans withdraw." "

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage? Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true? The only difference if there was a better media blackout than currently exists is that the American people would think him a crackpot since the USAID website doesn't track with what he's saying. Would it make the situation on the ground different? Would it change that when I was there in late 2003/early 2004, there were on average 15 attacks on coaliton forces when the insurgency was in its death throes, and now there are 10 times more attacks against coalition forces? Does media coverage make General Petraeus' comments about needing a political solution less true?

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   20:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: BeAChooser (#44)

Just as running may shatter the good people of Iraq's morale.

I have more faith in the people of Iraq. By their actions, they are telling us that they feel they can govern themselves. If they were serious about wanting us there, more would be helping us. There are only a few percent working against us, and if only a few percent helped us there would be no insurgency. Since Iraq is awash with weapons, there is no shortage of equipment they could use to defend themselves. That they are choosing not to seems to indicate that they are lukewarm at best with our presence.

After living under Hussein, and then under twelve years of sanctions, and now four years of ever worsening conditions, I don't see how their morale could sink any lower. Our leaving would just mean one less group of people shooting at them and blowing things up.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   20:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: BeAChooser (#44)

Just as they may not follow through with any support promised the Iraqi government.

What more support could we possibly offer the Iraqi government? They have the US Army essentially at their disposal, and we have spent billions of dollars on their government. To support them any more, we'd have to become their government.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-08   20:41:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: BeAChooser (#40)

What boggles my mind is that in the WTC debate, BAC refuses to accept any information from a person with a doctorate in physics because he isn't a metallurgist.

Fine. Excuse me for not remembering word for word what I said. Still, that's a far cry from having a debate about the WTC.

No, one of those children posted numerous sources ... not just by unnamed bloggers ... that pointed out serious questions about the study.

Oh yeah, you also posted newspaper articles by no-nothing journalists, and op- ed pieces from no-nothing neocons. Oh yeah, and a UN report. Sorry. I don't accept anything from the UN. It doesn't surprise me that a socialist, big government republican such as yourself does.

And I'll tell you now what I said then; if all the shit you wrote were true, then it would have been challenged in a professional, peer reviewed journal. That's how it's done. Not ramblings in unknown blogs. Not newspaper articles written by no-nothing journalists. Not op-ed peices by neo-cons. Professional epidemiologists would have provided a research paper on how and why the original study was flawed. Guess what BAC. This has not been done!

Why is that? It is inconceivable that every single epidemiologist in the whole United States and Great Britan is a Bush-hating liberal. Do you not think that a conservative, pro-Bush epidemiologist would jump on the chance to debunk this report.

But here we go again. We've been through all this before. Once again, I've had my say and you've had yours. I reject your sources in the same way that you reject the WTC sources. When you can provide a professional, peer reviewed journal with a research paper indicating the flaws, then come see me. Until then, you're wasting my time.

Like make that respectful remark in post #26?

You are a war-mongering coward that doesn't have the courage of his convictions. You deserve no respect whatsoever. What you and your ilk deserve is to be drafted so that the good men and women over there for their 3rd and 4th tours can have a break. Then we'll see how gung-ho you are about war.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-08   20:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: BeAChooser, historian1944 (#43)

http://www.januarymagazine.com/features/triumphexc.html "

Regarding the author you quote per the January magazine - Mark Moyar - "At present, he is Associate Professor and Course Director at the U.S. Marine Corps University in Quantico, Virginia."

Enough said.

As for the QandO Blog - what is it and who the heck is Bruce "McQ" McQuain? I saw some references on Google to QandO being a right wing blog, which doesn't surprise me, and that McQ participated in a "conference call" with Senator Mitch McConnell...Ha!

http://blogometer.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/09/915_wheres_the.html

http://cayankee.bl ogs.com/cayankee/congress/index.html

It sounds like McQ is a reichwing spokes person so I could care less about his research or his interviews or his observations about the Vietnam War. He has an agenda.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-08   20:48:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: historian1944, ALL (#45)

If the domino theory was valid, and the fall of Vietnam would lead to Chinese hegemony in Southeast Asia, why weren't we more concerned that Cuba was becoming Communist, which would lead to all of South America becoming Communist?

Actually we were. Remember Nicaragua and the Sandinistas?

You might find this interesting ...

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/0902/0902domino.htm

Why should we be willing to send soldiers to prevent a country thousands of miles away from becoming Communist, but we shouldn't have a problem with a Communist country 90 miles away?

Actually, only the democRAT party has no problem with Cuba being communist.

Did lack of media coverage and internal outrage make the Soviets successful in Afghanistan? Did the resistance in Afghanistan need press coverage or discussion in the Russian media to maintain motivation to continue? Where does the belief that all will be well if no one knows what's going on come from?

Not sure where this is coming from. I haven't suggested all will be well if no one knows what's going on. What I said is that things can go wrong when the media DISTORTS what's going on to fit their own agenda. That's what they did in Vietnam and that is what they are doing now.

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage?

Such people use our media to spread their propaganda ... for free. That's not the way to fight an information war ... and this is as much an information war as anything else. It's a war of WILL, and anything that can bolster or weaken will is a weapon. Our enemies are using our media against us.

Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true?

But it isn't true. It's propaganda and our media helping making American's believe it (as they clearly have done) is the only way our enemies will win.

Would it make the situation on the ground different?

The situation on the ground for terrorists has been dire in Iraq. The media in this country didn't tell the public how effective the campaign against terrorists has been the last several years and the progress made on multiple fronts. Instead, it concentrated on every bad event it could find or anything that potentially could be interpreted as bad. Iraq has been a killing ground for terrorists and has led to numerous intelligence coups that have significantly hurt terrorist plots. But that's not what the media has told the public. So the situation on the ground is definitely affected by what impact terrorists think their actions will have on OUR WILL and that of the Iraqis. Until recently morale in Iraq has been good but the weakening of will in America (as a direct result of media reporting) is now taking its toll. And don't think for one second that our enemies aren't watching that with interest.

Let me ask you a question. Why do you think during WW2 the media was prevented from telling the public how dire the situation was initially? Would we have won that war if the media had done then what they've been doing now? Now be honest...

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   21:04:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: historian1944, ALL (#46)

I have more faith in the people of Iraq. By their actions, they are telling us that they feel they can govern themselves.

They are governing themselves.

If they were serious about wanting us there, more would be helping us.

No, they are like people everywhere. Watching out for number one. Focused on day to day life. Not very literate when it comes to some things. Not willing to stick their neck out if they can avoid it. Willing to live off the government dole.

There are only a few percent working against us, and if only a few percent helped us there would be no insurgency.

Actually, there are a few percent helping us. What you forget is that the source of the insurgencies strength is not inside Iraq. Iran and Syria are definitely promoting trouble. But unfortunately, we again have leaders who aren't willing to draw a line in the sand but think they can negotiate a solution. That has NEVER worked.

That they are choosing not to seems to indicate that they are lukewarm at best with our presence.

No, they are just like people everywhere. They will let someone else stick their neck out. Now mind you, I'm not against putting a greater burden on them. They need to take the reigns now. But they also need to know that we will stand behind them no matter how bloody it gets or what it takes to win on their part. Unfortunately, that's not the message they are getting from the US media and those holding the keys to the Senate and House.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-08   21:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: BeAChooser (#51)

They are governing themselves.

May you be so fortunate.

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-08   21:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Dakmar, BeAChooser, SKYDRIFTER (#52)

I have to say there is one positive thing about BAC, he never cusses and is never vulgar.

(hey you have to give people credit for something!)

Diana  posted on  2007-03-08   21:19:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: historian1944 (#45)

Did lack of media coverage and internal outrage make the Soviets successful in Afghanistan? Did the resistance in Afghanistan need press coverage or discussion in the Russian media to maintain motivation to continue? Where does the belief that all will be well if no one knows what's going on come from?

One of the best little quotes to come out of this discussion.

The hawks and their keyboard warrior allies want us all to believe that if we oppose this war, we will be held responsible for the outcome. That in the wrack and ruin of premature withdrawal caused by an army of simpering leftist fifth columnists at home waiving little Hezbollah flags our troops will come home in defeat and the Dolchstosslegende will be born anew. The antiwar crowd will be branded as the defeatists that cost us victory.

If we had just stuck it out. Two more years or three more years, and we would have worn the insurgency out. I can hear them already. I can hear them on this forum.

The truth is that Iraq was sick to start with. The truth is we had a lot to do with its pathology. (Want facts Beech? Try me.) Then we went in like an unqualified surgeon and made an unholy mess of things.

When I say "we" made a mess of things, I mean George Bush and all of the other idiots we've seen fit to elect to office and to represent us in the world. George has been singing, "I Did It My Way" for the last five years. He didn't listen to reasonable advice and allowed bad policies and incompetence to prevail. We're in a stinkin' mess in Iraq. It stinks if we stay and sticks if we go. And you can't blame it on the "fifth column" at home. Bush and Rummy screwed this all up by themselves.

The insurgency will continue. They've got lots and lots of ammo courtesy of Uncle Sam and his friends. And they have nowhere to go. Like the Soviet Union in Afghanistan where the only debate of significance took place behind locked doors in the Kremlin, the present and future costs of this war are beginning to be felt in earnest. It costs a fearful amount of treasure to send an army abroad on a crusade. And it's the money that will break the back of this venture, not the blood shed abroad or the tears shed at home.

Money trumps . . . uh . . . . peace . . sometimes. - GW Bush

randge  posted on  2007-03-08   21:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Diana (#53)

He is vulgar because he insults the intelligence of everyone he views as his enemy. Wrong on so many levels...

I, on the other hand, just like Saxon words. :)

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-08   21:23:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Diana (#53)

I have to say there is one positive thing about BAC, he never cusses and is never vulgar.

(hey you have to give people credit for something!)

Right, you are.

I don't have to worry about 'handlers.' Not so BAC.

{:-))


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-03-08   23:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#48)

Oh yeah, you also posted newspaper articles by no-nothing journalists, and op- ed pieces from no-nothing neocons. Oh yeah, and a UN report.

Again, you are mischaracterizing. But that's ok. Visitors to FD4UM will read the threads on the John Hopkins' studies and see that.

And I'll tell you now what I said then; if all the shit you wrote were true, then it would have been challenged in a professional, peer reviewed journal. That's how it's done.

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't that also be true of your WTC allegations? Where are the peer reviewed articles challenging the government's scenario for the collapse of the towers? And don't try to suggest that a journal started by Steven Jones can be credibly called *peer reviewed*.

But in any case, the difference between the WTC case and this case is that I and many others are more than willing to argue the facts. And we have. Providing DETAILED explanations why the John Hopkins studies are bogus. Your side's response has mostly been to ignore those detailed criticisms and repeat your mantra. And many of those criticism have come from scientists and experts in statistics. Named ones. That should tell readers something.

Professional epidemiologists would have provided a research paper on how and why the original study was flawed. Guess what BAC. This has not been done!

Maybe that says something about epidemiologists. They do tend to be a liberal group. Or maybe it says something about your research abilities.

You shouldn't simply dismiss the UN report. It was peer reviewed. It was performed by folks who know how to conduct good surveys. One of those is Dr Jon Pedersen. He's actually got very good credentials. And ironically, you dismiss him because he works for the UN ... yet some of the authors of the John Hopkins' reports also have at one time or another worked on UN projects and UN reports. Richard Garfield is one of those. He worked for UNICEF and came up with a pre-war mortality for children in Iraq that is much different than the one Les Roberts now claims. Of course, now Mr Garfield has nothing to say about that difference. In fact, Mr Garfield is the one who put Roberts in contact with Riyadh Lafta, the researcher at Al-Mustansiriya University, who recruited the interviewers to do the John Hopkins survey ... the ones that mostly HATE the Americans. Do we detect an agenda?

Let's see who else you simply ignore or dismiss (just to start a list).

I believe I mentioned a named statistician who it turns out works for the Yukon State Bureau of Statistics in Canada. What would he know about statistics ...

How about Debarati Guha-Sapir, director of the Centre for Research on the Epidemiology of Disasters in Brussels? You think she's woefully unqualified?

Or how about Madelyn Hicks, a psychiatrist and public health researcher at King's College London in the U.K.. Dr Hicks published her concerns in a paper titled "Mortality after the 2003 invasion of Iraq: Were valid and ethical field methods used in this survey?", which concluded that, "In view of the significant questions that remain unanswered about the feasibility of their study’s methods as practiced at the level of field interviews,it is necessary that Burnham and his co-authors provide detailed, data-based evidence that all reported interviews were indeed carried out, and how this was done in a valid manner. In addition, they need to explain and to demonstrate to what degree their published methodology was adhered to or departed from across interviews, and to demonstrate convincingly that interviews were done in accordance with the standards of ethical research. If the authors choose not to provide this further analysis of their data, they should provide their raw data so that these aspects can be examined by others. Even in surveys on the sensitive and potentially risky subject of community violence, adequately anonymized data are expected to be sufficient for subsequent reanalysis and to be available for review. In the case of studies accepted for publication by the Lancet, all studies are expected to be able to provide their raw data." But so far Burnham and company have refused to do so ... or perhaps they can't because the data never existed or they kept such *bad* records.

You dismiss Beth Daponte, senior research scholar at Yale University's Institution for Social and Policy Studies. She seems to be qualified. And after reading the Lancet article she told Fred Kaplan "It attests to the difficulty of doing this sort of survey work during a war. … No one can come up with any credible estimates yet, at least not through the sorts of methods used here." She expressed her concerns here, http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/1818, "So the pre-war CDR that the two Lancet studies yield seems too low. It may not be wrong, but the authors should provide a credible explanation of why their pre-war CDR is nearly half that of the UN Population Division. If the pre-war mortality rate was too low and/or if the population estimates were too high – because, for example, they ignored outflows of refugees from Iraq – the resulting estimates of the number of Iraqi "excess deaths" would be inflated."

And of course you would dismiss, Steven E. Moore, who conducted survey research in Iraq for the Coalition Provisional Authority. He's got to be biased. Right?

But what about Professor Michael Spagat of Royal Holloway's Economics Department, and physicists Professor Neil Johnson and Sean Gourley of Oxford University? They published a highly detailed paper (http://www.rhul.ac.uk/Economics/Research/conflict-analysis/iraq-mortality/BiasPaper.html ). They claim (http://www.rhul.ac.uk/messages/press/message.asp?ref_no=367 ) the John Hopkin "study’s methodology is fundamentally flawed and will result in an over-estimation of the death toll in Iraq. The study suffers from "main street bias" by only surveying houses that are located on cross streets next to main roads or on the main road itself. However many Iraqi households do not satisfy this strict criterion and had no chance of being surveyed. Main street bias inflates casualty estimates since conflict events such as car bombs, drive-by shootings, artillery strikes on insurgent positions, and market place explosions gravitate toward the same neighbourhood types that the researchers surveyed." That sounds like a pretty serious complaint. And more on their work can be found here: http://www.rhul.ac.uk/Economics/Research/conflict-analysis/iraq-mortality/index.html. Now that work may be peer reviewed? I don't know. But to simply dismiss it out of hand is a mistake on your part.

And then there's an article in Science magazine by John Bohannon which describes some of the above professors criticisms, as well as the response from Gilbert Burnham. Burnham claimed that such streets were included and that the methods section of the published paper is oversimplified. Bohannon says that Burnham told Science that he does not know exactly how the Iraqi team conducted its survey; and that the details about neighborhoods surveyed were destroyed "in case they fell into the wrong hands and could increase the risks to residents." Michael Spagat says the scientific community should call for an in-depth investigation into the researchers' procedures. "It is almost a crime to let it go unchallenged," says Johnson. In a letter to Science, the John Hopkins authors claim that Bohannon misquoted Burnham. Bohannon defended his comments as accurate, citing Burnham saying, in response to questions about why details of selecting "residential streets that that did not cross the main avenues" that "in trying to shorten the paper from its original very large size, this bit got chopped, unfortunately." Apparently, the details which were destroyed refer to the "scraps" of paper on which streets and addresses were written to "randomly" choose households". The John Hopkins effort was such a well conducted survey. (sarcasm)

And how about some of the members of Iraq Body Count? How about John Sloboda or Joshua Dougherty (AKA joshd)? They've made pretty strong criticisms of the John Hopkins' work. I posted some of them earlier on this thread. Yet you just dismiss them out of hand?

You know what I think, Halek? Somebody is hiding.

Once again, I've had my say and you've had yours.

Actually, you haven't even listened to most of what I had to say.

I reject your sources in the same way that you reject the WTC sources.

On the contrary. My sources actually do have expertise in the subject at hand. NONE of your sources have expertise in structures, demolition, fire, impact, steel, concrete, buckling or macro-world physics. And unlike you, I don't run from the detailed accusations. I take them apart with sourced facts point by point.

You are a war-mongering coward that doesn't have the courage of his convictions.

Ah ... more respectful debate. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   0:53:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: scrapper2, ALL (#49)

Regarding the author you quote per the January magazine - Mark Moyar - "At present, he is Associate Professor and Course Director at the U.S. Marine Corps University in Quantico, Virginia."

Enough said.

Such respect for our military. You sure are on their side.

It sounds like McQ is a reichwing spokes person so I could care less about his research or his interviews or his observations about the Vietnam War. He has an agenda.

Muhammad Saadi's views were mentioned in the House Foreign Affairs Committee by Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen during debate of the Iraq resolution: http://www.internationalrelations.house.gov/minority/news021307.htm . You think he's lying about that?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   1:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: BeAChooser (#58) (Edited)

a. Such respect for our military. You sure are on their side

b. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen

a. You bet I'm on the side of the military. I want what the troops want - to leave Iraq post haste and come home. What you and your neocon compadres want for the US military is anyone's guess.

Btw, did you and your internet imaginery friends realize that according to a recent Military Times poll 72% our military in Iraq don't know what they're doing there and that they want to be re-deployed asap?

b. "Muhammad Saadi's views were mentioned in the House Foreign Affairs Committee by Representative Ileana Ros-Lehtinen during debate of the Iraq resolution"...

Uh huh...I am sure Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, like your McQ reichwing blogger from QandA would have loved, loved, loved anything that could be used as a faux reason to invade Iraq, including Mr. Saadi's views. In fact, I'm sure Ariel Sharon and Bibi Netanyahu would have also thought that Mr. Saadi's views rocked!

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   1:16:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: BeAChooser (#57)

I believe I mentioned a named statistician who it turns out works for the Yukon State Bureau of Statistics in Canada. What would he know about statistics ...

Err...BAC - Yukon is not a state. And your Yukon state statistician is working in the Siberian boondock territories of Canada because he did not make the cut for Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver, so I guess he's not such a notable statistician after all. Also - pssst - to BAC's imaginery internet pals lurking out there - this Yukon statistician was a holy roller christonutter...

But BAC - I didn't mean to interrupt. Carry on...

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   1:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: historian1944 (#46)

Just as running may shatter the good people of Iraq's morale.

The Good people of Iraq's morale is fine. They are highly motivated to get rid of the US military occupation that is murdering them and their children. The morale of the simpering traitors and quislings in Iraq that collaborate with the US military in murdering their own people as the Imperial fortress of evil rises above their once beautiful and ancient capital I am sure isn't good at all. Then again, it never has been as they are hirelings and in it only for the money before they hop the first transports out of Iraq to retire in America - where they will no doubt join the likes of BAC in blaming "leftists" for the loss of their evil murdering war.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-09   1:42:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: scrapper2 (#39)

Sean Hannity always beats his breast about those poor 3 Million Cambodians that our withdrawal from Vietnam caused but I've never heard Sean fret about the 5 Million Vietnamese casualties that were a direct result of the Vietnam War we waged on their soil. What a hypocritical Bot shill punk.

Of course the likes of Hannity isn't aware of the assisstance the US gave the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot (yes- the United States government supported the KR AFTER it had murdered a couple million people) after their toppling from power by the invasion of a unified Vietnam in 1978- after Pol Pot insanely attacked the much stronger and more populace Vietnam. The fact of the matter is that it is highly doubtful that Pol Pot ever would have come to power in the first place if the US didn't back the ousting of Prince Sihanouk by their puppet dictator Lon Nol. Sihanouk then allied himself and his large rural following of peasant loyalists with Pol Pot's miserable little gang of communists and fought a guerilla war against the US backed puppet regime. The figurehead of the Khmer Rouge was Prince Sihanouk though Pol Pot firmly held the reins of power of the guerilla army apparat. They weren't fighting for "communism"- but for their king. The crazy regime that followed was just as much a surprise to many of the men who had fought to oust Lon Nol as it was to the rest of the world. The actions of the US are directly responsible for the horrid last 40 years of Cambodian history.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-09   2:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: randge (#54)

They've got lots and lots of ammo courtesy of Uncle Sam and his friends. And they have nowhere to go

Actually, all over the ME are thousands of little gunsmith shops that actually hand make knockoffs of the AK47 and the ammunition they fire. Some of these small shops even hand make RPGs, RPG rounds, mortars, and mortar rounds. "60 Minutes" did a report on them a couple years back. They hand make EVERY component- even the tiny springs. It's actually quite astonishing. Of course, from the amount of ordiance lying around Iraq- I imagine the insurgency can go on forever. And it doesn't help much that every other adult male in Iraq has had some level of military training including thousands of explosive experts who have, by now, trained thousands upon thousands more.

As an aside, some American general a couple months back estimated that the Iraq insurgency gets by on 200 million a year, or what it costs the US military to operate in Iraq for 2/3's of one day.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-09   2:32:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Burkeman1 (#63)

I think you're correct that the insurgency has enough indigenous explosives, weaponry and knowhow to fight forever (unless we sterilize all the males and build a really big fence I suppose). I remember during the "we're searching for the WMDs that we told everyone were here, and we knew where they were, but for some reason we can't find them" phase, the apologists for not being able to fight them said that Iraq stockpiled about 25% of what we (a much larger country) have stockpiled, so it would take time. I was always curious why they would use an argument that seemed to indicate that we should have waited longer because if there was so much to look through why we didn't give the inspectors more time.

I think that ease of manufacture was one of the most important traits in the design of the AK-47. The first versions were nicely milled, and then the Soviets decided that they wanted to be able to make them easier, so they switched to being able to stamp all the parts. From what I've read, though it reduces the accuracy but means that even the most primitive metal shop can stamp them out.

I think that the way we deride the AK-47 as junk demonstrates that we have a tendency to look at things and try to force them into our comfort zone. Our tactics require a tack driver at 300m (engage and destroy the enemy at beyond standoff range using superior technology and firepower) while the Soviets post WWII (less now, they've been bitten by the technology bug, too) emphasized true light infantry tactics, engage the enemy at eyeball verification range, using small arms, grenades and sometimes bayonets. For that kind of a fight the AK is admirably suited. They also designated the best shooter in a squad to be the long range rifleman, who got the scope Mosin-Nagant M91/30 (immediately postwar) or the Dragunov. He chose what to engage beyond 200 meters. But even the long range rifleman had a bayonet.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-09   6:36:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: BeAChooser (#50)

Does what he's saying hinge upon positive media coverage? Such people use our media to spread their propaganda ... for free. That's not the way to fight an information war ... and this is as much an information war as anything else. It's a war of WILL, and anything that can bolster or weaken will is a weapon. Our enemies are using our media against us.

Is it any less true because the media is providing information that it's true? But it isn't true. It's propaganda and our media helping making American's believe it (as they clearly have done) is the only way our enemies will win.

Would it make the situation on the ground different? The situation on the ground for terrorists has been dire in Iraq. The media in this country didn't tell the public how effective the campaign against terrorists has been the last several years and the progress made on multiple fronts.

I agree that the gentlemen referenced in the article that you posted within one of your replies, from http://WorldNetDaily.com was using our media to fight his information war for free. But in this case, the only place I see that particular gentleman referenced was at http://wnd.com, and they're giving him a free venue from which to state his case, and this from a site that supports the war. But the only thing he said that's in dispute is the part about us leaving. Iraq is not stable, and we haven't been able to obtain the oil exports that we said would pay for this war.

You are correct that we are fighting an information war, and that's one of the few lessons we've picked up from the Russian experience in Chechnya. It's vital to get our side of the information out, and it's vital that we get our information out first, in a fashion that paints reality in a manner that supports our cause. I have no argument. The point I was trying to make is that, no matter how hard one tries, sometimes reality intrudes. The will of the Soviet people to continue fighting in Afghanistan in 1989 was not eroded by bad media coverage, or lack of reporting on how many schools had been opened. Lack of reports of schools being opened or water purification plants being reopened isn't what is weakening the American peoples' resolve. Those aren't real progress; having a government with some modicum of control over the situation in their own country is progress. If the US combat dead and number of attacks per day had a downward trend again, that would be progress. For the past four years, in nearly every category, all the data points to a deteriorating situation, and the only strategy is to keep doing what we've been doing during that time, because if we only wait long enough, somethings got to change. In this kind of war, that idea doesn't seem to have worked anywhere. That's why General Petraeus said that more than a military solution was needed, and it sound a little like von Rundstedt in 1944 barking "Make peace, you fools!" when asked what the Germans should do. You note that the Iraqis are governing themselves, and that they need to have less direct help from us. I can agree with that statement, and that's what me and others are saying: it's time for us to start leaving, since they're a sovereign government. They can figure it out, they're not stupid people. Having large contingents of US representatives at their elbow only creates a constant crisis of legitimacy for them, so it's time for our direct involvement to end. They'll do fine.

I don't know that you could ever characterize the situation for us as dire in WWII. There weren't Huns at the gate if we failed. Operation Torch went off quite well, we did have a little setback at Kasserine (my father listened to Lord Ha-Ha on shortwave tell the German side of the story during that time, so even then, there was negative information available-today it is easier and more pervasive though), but we stopped Rommel's advance, and that was a real propaganda coup that could and was emphasized. Rommel did later say that he never encountered soldiers as inept as we were at Kasserine, but he also never encountered soldiers who learned so fast from their mistakes.

WWII was a little different also because Japan attacked us directly and the Germans then obligingly declared war on us, so no amount of negative publicity was going to change that. Sure there was a fairly substantial antiwar sentiment from the Old Right that probably would have kept us out of the war in Europe had the Germans not committed what some have called the greatest grand strategic blunder in human history.

Even then, with relatively light casualties, in 1945 we were tired of war, despite mainly positive reporting going on (from 1944 on, there was heavy fighting but no setbacks.) And then, the second the armistices were signed, the American people were clamoring for the boys to come back home. There was huge resistance from families whose loved ones were getting ready to head overseas after the war ended. The argument was that the war was over, why do you still need troops? The American people didn't seem to think that occupation duty was something that required manpower also.

I don't think that the will to fight hinges quite so much how things are reported as much as how worthy the cause seems to be. The Soviets had nothing but dire reports throughout mid to late 1941, yet they still continued to fight. When Guderian was shelling Moscow the Soviets didn't give up. While Leningrad was under siege from 1941 to 1944, the Soviets didn't give up. They felt that national survival required whatever sacrifice was necessary. The Administration didn't present this current war as something that required that level of effort. We've reached the level of cost that most Americans seem to feel constitutes a losing investment and they want to cover their losses and stop pouring more good money after bad (in this case lives).

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-09   7:05:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: BeAChooser (#65)

I'll caveat my post about WWII never being dire: in the Pacific the situation could have been considered dire during 1941 and 1942. When MacArthur lost the Phillipines that could have been considered dire. Even the setbacks we encountered then were broadcast widely and after the Bataan Death March, everyone knew that we had to teach those damned Japs a lesson. My father has said that if Truman wouldn't have dropped the bombs on Japan he thinks that the American public would have been outraged, after all, the Japs had to be punished. Demonstrates the power of winning the information war. In the Pacific, there was much sentiment that we had to continue as long as it took.

I'm not sure how one could spin Iraq into that level of commitment. I don't think the American people see it as that large a national emergency. If it is that level of emergency, then the Administration needs to do a better job in demonstrating exactly why it is. It cannot be said that the media is hostile to showing evidence like that, all the media in 2002 and early 2003 was happy to oblige the Administration in getting its message out.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2007-03-09   7:12:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: BeAChooser (#57) (Edited)

Visitors to FD4UM will read the threads on the John Hopkins' studies and see that.

Yes they will, and they will see that every person on that thread was nailing you for posting "evidence" from unknown bloggers.

Providing DETAILED explanations why the John Hopkins studies are bogus. Your side's response has mostly been to ignore those detailed criticisms and repeat your mantra. And many of those criticism have come from scientists and experts in statistics. Named ones. That should tell readers something.

You provided accusations from unsourced bloggers, one of who's claim to fame was that he collected old math books. All anyone has to do is read the original thread to see that you spammed the thread over an over with bullshit. So somewhere buried within that bullshit was a valid source or two. Oh well. If you want the valid source to be recognized, then don't spam the thread with bullshit.

Maybe that says something about epidemiologists. They do tend to be a liberal group. Or maybe it says something about your research abilities.

Considering you're a socialist, big government-loving Republican butt-sniffer, you have a lot of nerve calling anyone else liberal. Your party has become a textbook example of liberal. As far as my research abilities, there are just as many experts who back the report as do not.

However, instead of going back and forth with you over this, then I would advise those lurkering to go to the Lancet surveys of mortality before and after the 2003 invasion of Iraq at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_mort ality_before_and_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq. This appears to be where you are getting your names from anyway. There, lurkers can find the rebuttals to most of your concerns as well as a defense of the methods used.

You know what I think, Halek? Somebody is hiding.

No one is hiding from you. There is plenty of data and plenty of experts who back the study, as you know perfectly well, as will anyone else who cares enough to look into it. Now you want me to waste my time cutting and pasting from "my side" to "prove" to you that you are wrong. No. I will not. I have my opinion, based upon the experts of those who back the report. You have your opinion, based upon those experts who critique the report. The scientists themselves can't even fucking agree, so there is no way two unqualified laymen with opposing views of the war are going to agree. You get three scientists together and you will get three different answers to a seemingly simple question.

I have given you and everyone else a webpage they can go to to read both sides of the issue. There are other webpages as well should anyone choose to look. I have better things to do with my time than spending it cutting and pasting and playing tit for tat with you.

And unlike you, I don't run from the detailed accusations. I take them apart with sourced facts point by point.

No one is running from you. You want to take part in a cut and paste war and I do not see the point.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-09   10:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: scrapper2, ALL (#59)

Btw, did you and your internet imaginery friends realize that according to a recent Military Times poll 72% our military in Iraq don't know what they're doing there and that they want to be re-deployed asap?

Care to link us to that poll? So we know which one you are talking about and exactly what it does say? Because I'm having a little trouble finding a Military Times poll with that specific result.

In any case, all that statistic would prove is that our military morale can eventually be affected by the constant distortions by the mainstream media. And I suspect they are now reacting to the feeling that America doesn't have their back any longer. Notice that up until the election ... where anti-war democRATS won the House and Senate ... the Military Times polls showed the troops were solidly behind the effort to win in Iraq and felt success was likely. Here: http://www.militarycity.com/polls/2006_main.php . See all the damage your negatism has caused? They may be ready to quit Iraq, but don't be fooled into thinking they respect or like you folks. Note that only 16 percent identify themselves as democRATS ... about the same as before. And only 39 percent think the media likes the military.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   12:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: scrapper2, ALL (#60)

And your Yukon state statistician is working in the Siberian boondock territories of Canada because he did not make the cut for Ottawa, Montreal, Toronto, or Vancouver, so I guess he's not such a notable statistician after all.

Let's let everyone see his actual criticism. Rather than attack the man.

http://magicstatistics.com/2006/10/15/lancet-study-of-iraqi-deaths-is-statistically-unsound-and-unreliable/

http://magicstatistics.com/2006/10/18/lancet-researchers-ignored-superior-study-on-iraqi-deaths/

http://magicstatistics.com/2006/10/22/main-street-bias-in-lancet-study/

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   12:36:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Burkeman1, scrapper2, ALL (#61)

They are highly motivated to get rid of the US military occupation that is murdering them and their children.

And you are no doubt supportive of our soldiers, too.

The morale of the simpering traitors and quislings in Iraq that collaborate with the US military in murdering their own people as the Imperial fortress of evil rises above their once beautiful and ancient capital I am sure isn't good at all.

And the welfare of Iraqis is no doubt at the forefront of your concerns.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   12:39:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Burkeman1 (#62)

Of course the likes of Hannity isn't aware of the assisstance the US gave the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot (yes- the United States government supported the KR AFTER it had murdered a couple million people) after their toppling from power by the invasion of a unified Vietnam in 1978- after Pol Pot insanely attacked the much stronger and more populace Vietnam. The fact of the matter is that it is highly doubtful that Pol Pot ever would have come to power in the first place if the US didn't back the ousting of Prince Sihanouk by their puppet dictator Lon Nol. Sihanouk then allied himself and his large rural following of peasant loyalists with Pol Pot's miserable little gang of communists and fought a guerilla war against the US backed puppet regime. The figurehead of the Khmer Rouge was Prince Sihanouk though Pol Pot firmly held the reins of power of the guerilla army apparat. They weren't fighting for "communism"- but for their king. The crazy regime that followed was just as much a surprise to many of the men who had fought to oust Lon Nol as it was to the rest of the world. The actions of the US are directly responsible for the horrid last 40 years of Cambodian history.

Thanks for that history lesson. You summmed up in one paragraph all the relationships, events that I would have had to knit together by digging through texts or the net.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   12:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2, rowdee, robin, christine, Zipporah, bluedogtxn, Jethro Tull, lodwick, Diana (#68)

In any case, all that statistic would prove is that our military morale can eventually be affected by the constant distortions by the mainstream media

"Hey, Jose, are you bummed because we got no body armor?"

"Naw."

"Are you upset because our HUMVEE isn't armored?"

"Naw."

"Are you uptight because we lost half our unit?"

Naw."

"Well, what then?"

"Man, I got really demoralized by that story about Abu Ghraib in The SACRAMENTO BEE. And, that pic of the 'thumbs up' with latex gloves over a dead Iraqi packed in ice? I mean, don't those mainstream media types know that we read every paper in the country every morning before we leave on patrol? And, when they criticize the neocons and the PNAC, well, it really makes it hard for me to kick doors and hose those families, you know? Next they'll be blaming bankers and the MIC and that will really depress me! I'm all for free speech but I agree with Bush. Some folks take it just a little too far!"

Hey, Jose, what's that hand doing inside you? What? You're a puppet? Well, whose arm is that????"

ROTFLMAO!

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-03-09   12:56:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: BeAChooser (#68)

Care to link us to that poll? So we know which one you are talking about and exactly what it does say? Because I'm having a little trouble finding a Military Times poll with that specific result.

I thought I had read it in Military Times, but actually it was Stars & Stripes.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp? section=104&article=34538&archive=true

"Poll of troops in Iraq sees 72% support for withdrawal within a year"

By Leo Shane III, Stars and Stripes Mideast edition, Wednesday, March 1, 2006

WASHINGTON — Seventy-two percent of troops on the ground in Iraq think U.S. military forces should get out of the country within a year, according to a Zogby poll released Tuesday.

The survey of 944 troops, conducted in Iraq between Jan. 18 and Feb. 14, said that only 23 percent of servicemembers thought U.S. forces should stay “as long as they are needed.”

Of the 72 percent, 22 percent said troops should leave within the next six months, and 29 percent said they should withdraw “immediately.” Twenty-one percent said the U.S. military presence should end within a year; 5 percent weren’t sure.

But policy experts differ on exactly what those numbers mean.

Justin Logan, a foreign policy analyst for the Cato Institute, called the figure alarming, and a sign that the Bush administration and troops in Iraq see the goals and the progress of the war very differently.

The president has opposed any plans for a withdrawal date, saying troops will remain until Iraq’s security is assured. Logan sees so many troops wanting a clear time line as showing “an alarming disconnect” between the policy and its implementation.

But Loren Thompson, a military analyst with the Lexington Institute, said troops who say the U.S. should withdraw could be concerned for their own safety, or they could be optimistic about progress so far, or they could simply be opposed to the idea of operations in Iraq.

“You have to pick apart each servicemember’s thought process to understand what that means,” he said. “I think this is about personal circumstances, and not proof there is a higher rate of troops who desire departure.”

Defense Department officials declined to comment on the poll, saying they did not have details on how the survey was conducted.

John Zogby, CEO of the polling company, said the poll was funded through Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, which received money for the project from an anonymous, anti-war activist, but neither the activist nor the school had input on the content of the poll.

Zogby said the survey was conducted face-to-face throughout Iraq, with permission from commanders. Despite the difficulty of polling in a war zone, he said, pollsters were pleased with the results.

“This is a credible and representative look at what the troops are saying,” he said. “Clearly there are those [in the U.S.] who will speak for the troops, so there is a real value in seeing what they are actually saying.”

The poll also shows that 42 percent of the troops surveyed are unsure of their mission in Iraq, and that 85 percent believe a major reason they were sent into war was “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the Sept. 11 attacks.” Ninety-three percent said finding and destroying weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for the ongoing military action.

“We were surprised by that, especially the 85 percent [figure],” Zogby said. “Clearly that is much higher than the consensus among the American public, and the public’s perception [on that topic] is much higher than the actual reality of the situation.”

In terms of current operations, 80 percent of those polled said they did not hold a negative view of all Iraqis because of the ongoing attacks against coalition military forces.

More than 43 percent of those polled said their equipment, such as Humvees, body armor and munitions, is adequate for the jobs facing them, while 30 percent said it is not.

Rep. Joe Wilson, R-S.C. and chairman of the Victory in Iraq Caucus, a group of 118 Republican lawmakers, said the poll does not diminish his opinion of the importance of the armed forces role in Iraq.

“Whatever the percentages are, I know 100 percent of our troops want to complete their mission over there,” he said. “My view is, whatever the poll results say, the bottom line is these are troops who will continue their mission, because they would rather fight the enemy overseas than at home.”

Of those surveyed, 75 percent have served multiple tours in Iraq, 63 percent were under 30 years old, and 75 percent were male.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   13:33:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: historian1944, ALL (#65)

But in this case, the only place I see that particular gentleman referenced was at http://wnd.com,

Did you use your browser? The comments of Hamas' Abu Abdullah are all over the internet and carried by plenty of mainstream sites. All it takes is one source to post something and a thousand others will pick it up and repeat it. And I'd bet you that his comments are carried extensively by Arab media.

But the only thing he said that's in dispute is the part about us leaving. Iraq is not stable, and we haven't been able to obtain the oil exports that we said would pay for this war.

What he said about the war being about stealing oil is certainly in dispute. But the constant chanting of that by the left, anti-warriors and media has made it a mantra among many democRATS and throughout the world. And as to Iraq not being stable, ask yourself the reason. It was HIS FRIENDS that have made Iraq unstable. And here he is telling you (will you listen?) that if we leave many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are going to be murdered by HIS FRIENDS. TERRORISTS.

The will of the Soviet people to continue fighting in Afghanistan in 1989 was not eroded by bad media coverage, or lack of reporting on how many schools had been opened.

Please. The Soviets weren't opening schools. And for you even to compare Soviet society and their Afghan war to ours and this one is downright silly.

Lack of reports of schools being opened or water purification plants being reopened isn't what is weakening the American peoples' resolve.

On the contrary, failure to highlight and keep Americans thinking about the GOOD we have done and the PROMISE of a better Iraq if we continue is precisely what has been weakening American resolve. Americans are more than ready to spend blood and resources if they think the outcome will be worth it. That has been proven over and over in our history. Our resolve has been weakened because the media has done lip service to reporting progress and worked overtime to exploit every possible bad thing that might be said about the war and its goals.

I asked you a question and I see you didn't answer it. It is relevant. Let me ask you again. Would we have won WW2 if the media had done then what they've been doing now? Now be honest...

That's why General Petraeus said that more than a military solution was needed, and it sound a little like von Rundstedt in 1944 barking "Make peace, you fools!" when asked what the Germans should do.

And what sort of peace are you going to make in this case? Who will you negotiate with? Are their demands something you can live with? Who are you prepared to sell out in order to extricate yourself? What will be the consequences of that sell out? What are the long term costs to cutting and running?

You note that the Iraqis are governing themselves, and that they need to have less direct help from us. I can agree with that statement, and that's what me and others are saying: it's time for us to start leaving, since they're a sovereign government. They can figure it out, they're not stupid people. Having large contingents of US representatives at their elbow only creates a constant crisis of legitimacy for them, so it's time for our direct involvement to end. They'll do fine.

But do you advocate that withdrawal over a matter of months (like some of the democRAT leaders) or years (like the military and Republican leaders)? Because that does make a big difference. To the Iraqis. It also will make a difference to American soldiers and future morale. And if it turns out that Syria and Iran are indeed causing most of the trouble, are we simply to ignore that? Do you think they will stop if we leave? You need to look at this in the larger context. Even after we leave Iraq, there will still be a world wide war going on ... with certain states supporting the other side. The outcome in Iraq can work for us or against us in that war. It very much depends on HOW we leave and whether the Iraqi government survives. It is in OUR interests to leave with a victory. We will not win the WOT if we lose in Iraq ... if islamo-fanatics end up in control. That is a fact that none of the democRATS (except perhaps Liberman) begins to grasp .

I don't know that you could ever characterize the situation for us as dire in WWII.

ROTFLOL! You tell that to the 300,000 Americans who DIED or ended up missing. There were times during the war when the situation could only be described as GRAVE. Even filtered and highly censored news reports made that quite clear to the American public. Now there is no doubt that as long as we stayed the course, we would probably win. But at what cost. Again, I ask you if the media in that war had been allowed to do what the media has done in this war, would we have had the will to continue the struggle after losing even a 100,000 soldiers? Or would we have sued for peace? And then what would the world look like today? You keep in mind that Germans were 6 months behind us in developing nuclear weapons ... and years ahead of us in rockets and long range aircraft to deliver them. Maybe the first nuclear war would have been fought not with 2 weapons but 1000's of weapons. And we would have fought that war at an extreme disadvantage in technology.

I don't think that the will to fight hinges quite so much how things are reported as much as how worthy the cause seems to be.

I'll ask you again. If the media had reported WW2 like they've reported this one, would we have won or ended up negotiating a peace. Keep in mind that a very good case could be made that the US forced Japan into attacking it. Keep in mind that conspiracists could have done to the Pearl Harbor attack what they've done to the 9/11 attack. Keep in mind that America had very strong isolationist tendencies and much of what the administration did was done to override them. But what if the media had been the watchdog then that it is now?

The Soviets had nothing but dire reports throughout mid to late 1941, yet they still continued to fight.

ONLY because of US help. If America stayed out of the war ... if America negotiated a peace to avoid having hundreds of thousands of dead and avoid spending the equivalent of trillions on the war, one of the conditions for that peace would undoubtedly have been we cease helping the Soviets. What then?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   13:33:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: BeAChooser (#74)

made it a mantra among many democRATS

Are you still using that tired "democRATS" thing?

Grow up.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-03-09   13:37:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: historian1944, ALL (#66)

I don't think the American people see it as that large a national emergency.

And whose fault is this? Not just the administration but the media. There are many who view the current situation as just as serious a threat, long term, as the cold war ... or even Hitler. A good case can be made. But if that case isn't made to Americans with the support of the media then Americans either won't hear about it or won't believe it. Plus we also have too many toys now days to worry about the survival of our way of life.

If it is that level of emergency, then the Administration needs to do a better job in demonstrating exactly why it is.

They can only do that with the cooperation of the media. Unfortunately, the media is so politicized that they would rather lose a world war than see democRATS lose an election.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   13:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: BeAChooser (#74)

On the contrary, failure to highlight and keep Americans thinking about the GOOD we have done and the PROMISE of a better Iraq if we continue is precisely what has been weakening American resolve. Americans are more than ready to spend blood and resources if they think the outcome will be worth it.

Here's what is "weakening" the American public's "resolve" on Iraq - TRUTH.

We have discovered that Saddam was not consorting with AQ.

We have discovered there were no WMD in Iraq.

We have discovered that the Office of Special Plans ran a Lie Factory to tweak information to propel us into war for lies.

We have discovered that the Israel and its national security was the main reason for the invasion of Iraq, followed by defense industry and re- construction industry interests.

We have discovered that we were lied to from the get go and that we have spent American blood and treasure in Iraq not for America's interests.

We need to cut our losses and get out of Iraq asap.

People like you and other neocons got us into Iraq - get your butts over to Iraq along with your children and fight the war you started. Maybe the IDF can help you.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   13:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: scrapper2, all (#77)

We have discovered that Saddam was not consorting with AQ.

But Saddam was sheltering known terrorists and allowing folks like al-Zarqawi to plan mass casualty terrorist acts from within Iraq ... from even within Bagdhad.

We have discovered there were no WMD in Iraq.

That's not what that binary sarin warhead that turned up as an IED says. And the ISG also said they had a credible source telling them that WMD related items were transferred to Syria before the invasion. And noone has determined what was in the truck convoys that went to Syria before the war (accompanied by Iraqi troops) or why Saddam's regime went to so much trouble to sanitize files, computers and facilities thought related to WMD activities prior to, during and even after the invasion. What were they hiding if they had nothing to hide?

We have discovered that the Office of Special Plans ran a Lie Factory to tweak information to propel us into war for lies.

That's your opinion. The TRUTH is that Wilson (your sides hero) is the proven liar.

We have discovered that the Israel and its national security was the main reason for the invasion of Iraq, followed by defense industry and re- construction industry interests.

ROTFLOL! Sure, Saddam applauding the 9/11 hijackers had nothing to do with it.

We need to cut our losses and get out of Iraq asap.

Damn the consequences. Right?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   15:33:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: BeAChooser (#78)

a. The lie that Saddam was consorting with Zarqawi was spun with the help of "our allies" the Kurds. Zarqawi was seen in N. Iraq, an area to which Saddam had no access, but where our "allies" the Kurds lived. He also received medical care on the Q.T. at a Baghdad hospital - and last I heard Saddam was not an Iraqi physician. But more importantly what a coincidence that the Kurds have such a close business and military relationship with the Israelis.

b. Debka claimed that Saddam sent WMD to Syria. Debka is a Mossad mouthpiece.

The 9/11 Commission reported that Saddam had no WMD, that he was not consorting with AQ, and that Iraq was no threat to America. The 9/11 Commission was a bi- partisan investigative committee - it was not a librul commission, btw.

c. The Office of Special Plans run by your hero, Doug Feith, was recently in the news. Feith narrowly missed having criminal charges lodged against his sorry ass for what he and the OSP did with manipulating intel that propelled us into this war for lies.

d. Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt, professors at U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research paper and it is clear there would have not been any Iraq invasion were it not for Israel Lobby influence. They just signed a book contract to expand on their study findings per the august publishing firm, Farrar, Straus and Giroux.

Philip Zeilikow - one of the chairs of the 9/11 commission and a pro-Israel hawk himself - admitted this to be the case as well:

http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083

Zelikow made his statements about ”the unstated threat” during his tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports directly to the president.

He served on the board between 2001 and 2003.

”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation.

”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow.

e. You and your neocon IsraelFirst ilk did not think about consequences to America or to Iraq when you propelled us into this elective unnecessary war. So spare me the irony of your statement: "Damn the consequences. Right?"

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   16:07:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: BeAChooser (#70)

Not my soldiers. And there isn't any amount of Iraqi blood you are not willing to see spilt.

Burkeman1  posted on  2007-03-09   16:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: scrapper2, ALL (#73)

By Leo Shane III, Stars and Stripes Mideast edition, Wednesday, March 1, 2006

I wouldn't exactly call that a recent poll. March of 2006?

Seventy-two percent of troops on the ground in Iraq think U.S. military forces should get out of the country within a year, according to a Zogby poll released Tuesday.

That doesn't say what you told us the poll said either.

You said "72% our military in Iraq don't know what they're doing there and that they want to be re-deployed asap". In fact, the article doesn't say 72% of the soldiers don't know what they are doing there. It says "42 percent of the troops surveyed are unsure of their mission in Iraq". Go to the poll itself (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075 ) and you'll find that 58% of the soldiers said the mission is "clear".

It also doesn't say that 72 percent want to be deployed asap. It says that "29 percent" said we should withdraw “immediately.” It says 22 percent say within 6 months and another 21 percent said within a year. And 23% said stay as long as needed.

And the details of those numbers are interesting too. Go to Zogby's link and you'll find that the reserves and National Guard were overwhelmingly of the opinion that we should withdraw within the next 6 months. As one might expect. But only 15 percent of Marines said that and only half of those in the regular Army.

And consider this portion of the poll not mentioned in S&S. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid withdrawal, 37% said those Americans are unpatriotic. Wow! UNPATRIOTIC. 20% said the people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war. 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

To be perfectly honest, it sounds more to me like they aren't sure America has their back. And with America recently putting a bunch of cut and run democRATS in charge of the House and Senate who are now dishonestly trying to use backdoor methods to cut funding for the war and force the troops home, one can see why they might have felt that way. Nobody wants to be the last to die if democRATS are going to just pull the rug out from under the effort because Americans are unpatriotic, don't understand the need, oppose the use of the military or think what the soldiers are doing is a waste of time.

And here's another tidbit your article failed to mention from the poll. "A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency." Tell me scrapper, if you want to run the war by polls of soldiers, why not follow their recommendation?

John Zogby, CEO of the polling company, said the poll was funded through Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, which received money for the project from an anonymous, anti-war activist, but neither the activist nor the school had input on the content of the poll.

Yeah. Right.

85 percent believe a major reason they were sent into war was “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the Sept. 11 attacks.” ... snip ... “We were surprised by that, especially the 85 percent [figure],” Zogby said. “Clearly that is much higher than the consensus among the American public, and the public’s perception [on that topic] is much higher than the actual reality of the situation.”

The actual reality of the situation. As determined by who? Perhaps soldiers are actually closer to the problem and have a better handle than anyone on what the Iraqis were up to? Curiously enough, what is left out of the Star and Stripe article is that the poll found that 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.” This is another area where anti-war movement insists Saddam was doing nothing of the sort. But then members of the anti-war movement haven't caught and interrogated members of al-Qaeda and Saddam's regime up close and personal.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   20:11:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: beachooser, Critter, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#81)

Say, BAC, isn't it time for your Sabbath?

Are you that regular?


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-03-09   21:55:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: scrapper2, ALL (#79)

The lie that Saddam was consorting with Zarqawi

Did I say that? I did not. I said Saddam's regime was allowing the organization to operate within Iraq, even within Baghdad. And this is true. The CIA said that associates of al-Zarqawi were arrested then released, on orders from Saddam. Documents captured after the war indicate that when an associate of Zarqawi was captured, he was let go on orders from higher ups even though the arresting officer said the evidence showed the man was guilty of the charges for which he was picked up.

Zarqawi was seen in N. Iraq, an area to which Saddam had no access, but where our "allies" the Kurds lived.

That doesn't mean that Saddam had no influence in Northern Iraq. There are numerous sources that indicate Iraqi had agents working with the al-Qaeda in those Northern camps. And there is no doubt that al-Zarqawi and his followers had no trouble traveling between Baghdad and the North or in other parts of the country. Now were you or I to have tried to travel those routes ...

He also received medical care on the Q.T. at a Baghdad hospital

You don't know it was on the Q.T. You are just assuming it was. What we do know is that the Iraqi regime closely monitored what happened at its hospitals.

And you omit one minor (or not so minor) detail. Al-qaeda terrorists captured in Jordan and put on trial (and convicted) for an attempt to kill tens of thousands (including all those in the US embassy in Amman) in a mass casualty chemical bomb attack admitted that they were al-Qaeda, that they worked for al-Zarqawi, that he funded their efforts, and that they met him IN BAGHDAD to plan the attack. They had to have met him in Baghdad BEFORE the invasion because they said they never returned to Iraq after going to Syria to prepare for the attack.

Debka claimed that Saddam sent WMD to Syria. Debka is a Mossad mouthpiece.

I didn't mention Debka.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20050427-121915-1667r.htm "The CIA's chief weapons inspector said he cannot rule out the possibility that Iraqi weapons of mass destruction were secretly shipped to Syria before the March 2003 invasion, citing "sufficiently credible" evidence that WMDs may have been moved there. ... snip ... "ISG was unable to complete its investigation and is unable to rule out the possibility that WMD was evacuated to Syria before the war," Mr. Duelfer said in a report posted on the CIA's Web site Monday night. "Whether Syria received military items from Iraq for safekeeping or other reasons has yet to be determined," he said. "There was evidence of a discussion of possible WMD collaboration initiated by a Syrian security officer, and ISG received information about movement of material out of Iraq, including the possibility that WMD was involved. In the judgment of the working group, these reports were sufficiently credible to merit further investigation." But Mr. Duelfer said he was unable to complete that aspect of the probe because "the declining security situation limited and finally halted this investigation. The results remain inconclusive, but further investigation may be undertaken when circumstances on the ground improve." Arguing against a WMD transfer to Syria, Mr. Duelfer said, was the fact that all senior Iraqi detainees involved in Saddam's weapons programs and security "uniformly denied any knowledge of residual WMD that could have been secreted to Syria." "Nevertheless," the inspector said, "given the insular and compartmented nature of the regime, ISG analysts believed there was enough evidence to merit further investigation."

Let me repeat. The ISG said they had a CREDIBLE informant who said WMD related items were moved to Syria. The ISG said they couldn't resolve this question because it had become too dangerous FOR THEM. Someone was targeting members of the ISG. Odd thing to do if the ISG was looking for a ghost.

And maybe the ISG had other reasons to discontinue the effort.

David Gaubatz, a former member of the Air Force's Office of Special Investigations, say that between March and July 2003, he was taken by his sources to four locations - three in and around Nasiriyah and one near the port of Umm Qasr, where he was shown underground concrete bunkers with the tunnels leading to them deliberately flooded. In each case, he was told the facilities contained stocks of biological and chemical weapons, along with missiles whose range exceeded that mandated under U.N. sanctions. He said the ISG wouldn't investigate.

Furthermore, there were others who said this transfer occurred. For one, an ex-General in Saddam's Air Force, Sada, said he had sources in the Iraqi military who told him they were moved to Syria in the summer of 2002 by air and by truck under the guise of humanitarian aid to Syria. And there are others who say the evidence indicates the Russians helped in this transfer. You want to read more about it? Try the links at this URL: http://www.therant.us/daily_columns/in_serach_of_saddam_husseins_wmd.htm

And what was in those trucks that went from Iraq to Syria before the invasion?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21489 "Glazov: What exactly is the evidence that Iraq moved its WMD into Syria?"

Don't believe that source? Well how about this?

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040816-011235-4438r.htm "Saddam agents on Syria border helped move banned materials"

Or this?

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10547 "Syria Storing Iraq's WMDs"

Or this ...

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/dod-report-50-trucks-carried-iraqi-wmd-to-syria "DoD Report: 50 Trucks Carried Iraqi WMD To Syria"

The 9/11 Commission reported that Saddam had no WMD, That binary sarin warhead that turned up as an IED proves the 9/11 Commission was more interested in politics than in the facts. They also claimed a lot of things about Atta and the collapse of the WTC towers that simply aren't true. Go figure ...

that he was not consorting with AQ,

Actually, that's not what they said. They acknowledged clandestine meetings between bin Laden, his associates and members of the Iraqi regime. They just said the two didn't seem to have a "collaborative" arrangement ... but then what does that really mean and how can they be sure when Iraq went to so much trouble to destroy records throughout the country before, during and after the invasion.

And meanwhile, you go ahead and ignore reports like this:

http://cgi.warblogging.com/warfarking/mirror/1050418238.html "Guerrilla fighters seen as threat to allied forces, By Bill Gertz, THE WASHINGTON TIMES ... snip ... Conventional military conflict in Iraq is nearly over, but thousands of foreign fighters and supporters of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein remain in the country and pose a danger to U.S. and allied forces, U.S. officials said yesterday. The allies have discovered that Iraq was training or harboring guerrillas from North Africa and throughout the Middle East. Army Brig. Gen. Vincent Brooks, deputy director of operations for the U.S. Central Command, said the foreign guerrillas are "still threats" even though organized fighting by the Iraqi military has all but stopped. ... snip ... The discovery last weekend of hundreds of bomb-laden leather jackets has raised fears of more suicide attacks against coalition troops. At least 80 of the 300 jackets, each of which was lined with several pounds of C-4 plastic high explosive laced with ball bearings, are missing from the elementary school near Baghdad where they were found. "We think that some of the explosive vests were meant for" the foreign fighters, he said. The guerrilla fighters are a mixture of untrained Islamist and Arab supporters and others who have military or terrorist training, according to defense and intelligence officials. Documents obtained from dead and captured fighters show the foreigners included Syrians, Palestinians, Lebanese, Moroccans, Saudis, Yemenis and other Arabs. Intelligence reports also indicate that al Qaeda and Hezbollah terrorists remain in Iraq and are a threat to coalition forces. More than 100 al Qaeda terrorists are believed to have been in Iraq before the start of the war, the official said. As for Hezbollah, the Iranian-backed terrorist group based in Lebanon, the exact number of fighters in Iraq is not known, the official said. "These guys still pose a threat. They are irregular forces," the official said. ... snip ... The official said there are no solid estimates of how many foreign guerrillas and terrorists are in Iraq. "Rather than hundreds, it could be in the thousands," the official said. ... snip ... Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said yesterday that Syria's government has permitted the guerrilla volunteers to go into Iraq. "We have intelligence that shows that Syria has allowed Syrians and others to come across the border into Iraq, people armed and people carrying leaflets indicating that they'll be rewarded if they kill Americans and members of the coalition," Mr. Rumsfeld told reporters outside the Pentagon. ... snip ... Military officials said scores of the untrained and lightly armed foreign forces conducted ground assaults with rifles and grenade launchers against columns of heavily armed U.S. tanks and armored vehicles. The attackers were killed in what officials described as suicide wave assaults. Mr. Cannistraro said the fanatical Fedayeen Saddam militia set up a foreign brigade for the outside volunteers, including those willing to conduct suicide bombings. ... snip ... One British tank group commander told the Daily Times of Pakistan that a large number of foreign guerrillas held out at Basra University last week, including one who charged a tank with a grenade. ... snip ... U.S. Marines also took over a terrorist training camp at Salman Pak, south of Baghdad, a week ago. The camp had been used by Sudanese and Egyptian trainees, military officials said. "We believe that this camp had been used to train these foreign fighters in terror tactics. It is now destroyed," Gen. Brooks said April 5. "The nature of the work being done by some of those people that we captured, their inferences to the type of training they received, all these things give us the impression that there was terrorist training that was conducted at Salman Pak," he said."

I can't really see how anyone can rationally deny that terrorists were using Iraq for staging and training and that the Iraqi government was complicit in this.

and that Iraq was no threat to America.

Did they really conclude that? You'll have to show me that part. And maybe the commission just missed the mural our troops found with Saddam smoking a cigar in front of the WTC towers after they were hit and burning ... celebrating.

c. The Office of Special Plans run by your hero, Doug Feith,

Care to point out how you come to the conclusion he's my hero?

Feith narrowly missed having criminal charges lodged against his sorry ass for what he and the OSP did with manipulating intel that propelled us into this war for lies.

Narrowly missed? You mean they got Scooter Libby for a crime that wasn't but didn't manage to get Feith? ROTFLOL!

Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt, professors at U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research paper and it is clear there would have not been any Iraq invasion were it not for Israel Lobby influence.

By all means, post the link so we can see if you got this one right or if what they claim has any merit. Uhhh, maybe not ...

http://sandbox.blog-city.com/mearsheimer_walt_retreat.htm "On the two points over which I challenged Mearsheimer in person three weeks ago in Princeton (while he and Walt were preparing their response), the retreats appear to be total. The first has to do with the alleged role of Israel in pushing for the Iraq war. The original paper devoted an entire section to the authors' claim that Israel used the Lobby to conduct a campaign in favor of war. Mearsheimer and Walt: "Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical." At the Princeton conference, I provided a body of counter-evidence, which pointed to Israel's dissent from the U.S. preoccupation with Iraq, and its fear that much-stronger Iran would benefit from the Iraq distraction. Evidence for this dissent even surfaced in leading U.S. papers in the year before the war, in articles that Mearsheimer and Walt failed to cite. Here, then, is the reformulated Mearsheimer/Walt position: "[T]he lobby, by itself, could not convince either the Clinton or the Bush administration to invade Iraq. Nevertheless, there is abundant evidence that the neo-conservatives and other groups within the lobby played a central role in making the case for war." Let's count the retreats. First, Israel is no longer cited as pushing for war. Second, the lobby (with a lower-case "L" this time) is disaggregated into "groups," and in any case takes second place to the neo-conservatives. Third, the role played by the "groups within the lobby" is now merely "central," not "critical." By my reading, the authors have backed down from at least half of their original claim about the origins of the Iraq war."

You and your neocon IsraelFirst ilk

I have no association with Israel nor do I think I fit the definition of neocon. Surprisingly, anytime I ask someone to define the term, they usually don't. How about you?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   22:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: BeAChooser (#81)

I wouldn't exactly call that a recent poll. March of 2006?

The actual reality of the situation. As determined by who? Perhaps soldiers are actually closer to the problem and have a better handle than anyone on what the Iraqis were up to? Curiously enough, what is left out of the Star and Stripe article is that the poll found that 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.” This is another area where anti-war movement insists Saddam was doing nothing of the sort. But then members of the anti-war movement haven't caught and interrogated members of al-Qaeda and Saddam's regime up close and personal.

March 2006 is recent for me. If a poll were taken today it would be even more damning to your "stay the course" cause, so count your blessings that this poll was taken last year.

It isn't one bit curious that troops in Iraq as of 2006 were still laboring under the mistaken impression that Saddam was connected to 9/11. What this reflects is the DOD's censorship of information access to the troops as well as the DOD propaganda doing its job. It reflects the failings of the DOD more than anything else. Did anyone of those troops get access to the 9/11 Commission's findings? I doubt it.

I'll take a pass on your biased interpretations of the poll results. I'll stick to the following that's reflects Zogby's findings - the company that did the poll- thank you very much:

http://www.info rmationclearinghouse.info/article12103.htm

U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006 02/28/06 Zogby

Le Moyne College/Zogby Poll shows just one in five troops want to heed Bush call to stay “as long as they are needed” While 58% say mission is clear, 42% say U.S. role is hazy Plurality believes Iraqi insurgents are mostly homegrown Almost 90% think war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11, most don’t blame Iraqi public for insurgent attacks Majority of troops oppose use of harsh prisoner interrogation Plurality of troops pleased with their armor and equipment An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and nearly one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows. The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,” while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.”

Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.

The troops have drawn different conclusions about fellow citizens back home. Asked why they think some Americans favor rapid U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, 37% of troops serving there said those Americans are unpatriotic, while 20% believe people back home don’t believe a continued occupation will work. Another 16% said they believe those favoring a quick withdrawal do so because they oppose the use of the military in a pre-emptive war, while 15% said they do not believe those Americans understand the need for the U.S. troops in Iraq.

The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”

“Ninety-three percent said that removing weapons of mass destruction is not a reason for U.S. troops being there,” said Pollster John Zogby, President and CEO of Zogby International. “Instead, that initial rationale went by the wayside and, in the minds of 68% of the troops, the real mission became to remove Saddam Hussein.” Just 24% said that “establishing a democracy that can be a model for the Arab World" was the main or a major reason for the war. Only small percentages see the mission there as securing oil supplies (11%) or to provide long-term bases for US troops in the region (6%).

The continuing insurgent attacks have not turned U.S. troops against the Iraqi population, the survey shows. More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis because of those attacks. About two in five see the insurgency as being comprised of discontented Sunnis with very few non-Iraqi helpers. “There appears to be confusion on this,” Zogby said. But, he noted, less than a third think that if non-Iraqi terrorists could be prevented from crossing the border into Iraq, the insurgency would end. A majority of troops (53%) said the U.S. should double both the number of troops and bombing missions in order to control the insurgency.

The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.

Three quarters of the troops had served multiple tours and had a longer exposure to the conflict: 26% were on their first tour of duty, 45% were on their second tour, and 29% were in Iraq for a third time or more.

A majority of the troops serving in Iraq said they were satisfied with the war provisions from Washington. Just 30% of troops said they think the Department of Defense has failed to provide adequate troop protections, such as body armor, munitions, and armor plating for vehicles like HumVees. Only 35% said basic civil infrastructure in Iraq, including roads, electricity, water service, and health care, has not improved over the past year. Three of every four were male respondents, with 63% under the age of 30.

The survey included 944 military respondents interviewed at several undisclosed locations throughout Iraq. The names of the specific locations and specific personnel who conducted the survey are being withheld for security purposes. Surveys were conducted face-to-face using random sampling techniques. The margin of error for the survey, conducted Jan. 18 through Feb. 14, 2006, is +/- 3.3 percentage points.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   22:19:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Hayek Fan, ALL (#67)

As far as my research abilities, there are just as many experts who back the report as do not.

Fine, let's talk about some of those experts. Why don't you present some names and show us what they say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancet_surveys_of_mortality_before_and_after_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq. This appears to be where you are getting your names from anyway. There, lurkers can find the rebuttals to most of your concerns as well as a defense of the methods used.

Those rebuttals read like they were deliberately written to defend Roberts and the study. That's the problem with wikipedia. The article is only as unbiased as the author(s). And do we know who the author(s) of this one are?

I have given you and everyone else a webpage they can go to to read both sides of the issue.

No, what you've given us is a webpage written by someone with an agenda. And you've given us a webpage that does not begin to present the many criticisms of the John Hopkins' studies or delve into the potential bias of its authors. Lying by omission, if you ask me.

No one is running from you.

Tell that to all who have bozo'd me rather than see anything I post. ROTFLOL! (Careful, don't click the dot under the !)

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   22:31:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: scrapper2, ALL (#84)

If a poll were taken today it would be even more damning to your "stay the course" cause, so count your blessings that this poll was taken last year.

The poll I linked was taken in December. It's not all that damning. It just reflects the disillusion of our soldier with America's public and democRAT leaders.

What this reflects is the DOD's censorship of information access to the troops

NONSENSE. UTTERLY SILLY NONSENSE. Soldiers in Iraq are not being kept in the dark. That's just more conspiracy NONSENSE. They are seeing much of the same material Americans at home are seeing. That's why they've expressed a dislike of the media ... because the media hasn't been fairly representing what is going on over there. They talk to family members ... many of them weekly or even daily. I tell you what, scrapper ... you post a link or two quoting some soldiers who have returned to the US (and perhaps are even out of the military) who say they were kept in the dark about "the truth" while in Iraq. Go ahead ...

I'll take a pass on your biased interpretations of the poll results.

Suit yourself. But I didn't interpret the results. I quoted them verbatim from Zogby's site.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12103.htm

U.S. Troops in Iraq: 72% Say End War in 2006 02/28/06 Zogby

This is who you wish to believe? If so, right off the bat we know you are in trouble since the title is utterly deceptive. The troops did not say that. Although actually all you did is repeat exactly what I had already linked you to ... if you'd gone to the Zogby link I offered. ROTFLOL! (beware the dot!)

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-09   22:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: BeAChooser (#83)

Thanks but no thanks - frontpage and Washington Times - read those yourself - I'd prefer not to pollute my mind.

**************************************************************************

As for Doug Feith - (smirk) - like you don't know why Dougie wasn't charged with treason - spare me - people in high places would also be brought down for treason or impeachment along with Feith for propelling our nation into an invasion of Iraq for false reasons. Not that Doug Feith had much to fear personally even if he were charged - Israel does not extradite criminals bearing dual Israeli citizenship. But you probably knew that, didn't you.

Here's a link to Drs Mearsheimer's and Walt's research study - abstract followed by full text options - enjoy!

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? abstract_id=891198

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

***************************************************************************

As for Drs. Mearsheimer's and Walt's findings that the Iraq invasion was primarily a result of pressure from the Israel Lobby and for Israel's security, here's some cut and paste:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/me ar01_.html

"...Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure."

**************************************************************************

Also when the IsraelFirster character assassins came out in hordes, here's what Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt had to say ( some cut and paste):

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n09/le tters.html

Probably the most popular argument made about a countervailing force is Herf and Markovits’s claim that the centrepiece of US Middle East policy is oil, not Israel. There is no question that access to that region’s oil is a vital US strategic interest. Washington is also deeply committed to supporting Israel. Thus, the relevant question is, how does each of those interests affect US policy? We maintain that US policy in the Middle East is driven primarily by the commitment to Israel, not oil interests. If the oil companies or the oil- producing countries were driving policy, Washington would be tempted to favour the Palestinians instead of Israel. Moreover, the United States would almost certainly not have gone to war against Iraq in March 2003, and the Bush administration would not be threatening to use military force against Iran. Although many claim that the Iraq war was all about oil, there is hardly any evidence to support that supposition, and much evidence of the lobby’s influence. Oil is clearly an important concern for US policymakers, but with the exception of episodes like the 1973 Opec oil embargo, the US commitment to Israel has yet to threaten access to oil. It does, however, contribute to America’s terrorism problem, complicates its efforts to halt nuclear proliferation, and helped get the United States involved in wars like Iraq.

*************************************************************************

Strangely enough, BeAChooser, even though you claim that the MSM is librul and that it is anti-GWB and anti-America and anti-Iraq War etc, etc....well, if your theory is correct, one would have thought that MSM would have jumped at the opportunity to interview Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt to reveal how America went to war to defend a foreign nation's security, not America's,...but MSM totally ignored Drs. mearsheimer and Walt. And in fact those 2 esteemed American professors and scholars could not find a mainstream US publication that would give them any publicity whatsoever about the results of their research study. Fancy that! Professors Mearsheimer and Walt were forced to use a British publication - the London Review of Books - to announce their findings.

That's very curious, don't you think, BAC?

***************************************************************************

As for a good definition of what a neocon/neoconservativism is all about why not get the information from the Godfather of neoconservativism, Irving Kristol - uh huh, the father of the smarmy twerp, Billy Kristol, who is a political consultant (cough, cough) for FOX News.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw .asp

"The Neoconservative Persuasion: What it was, and what it is"

By Irving Kristol, 08/25/2003, Volume 008, Issue 47

Some cut and paste:

"Finally, for a great power, the "national interest" is not a geographical term, except for fairly prosaic matters like trade and environmental regulation. A smaller nation might appropriately feel that its national interest begins and ends at its borders, so that its foreign policy is almost always in a defensive mode. A larger nation has more extensive interests. And large nations, whose identity is ideological, like the Soviet Union of yesteryear and the United States of today, inevitably have ideological interests in addition to more material concerns. Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened. No complicated geopolitical calculations of national interest are necessary. "

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-09   23:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: BeAChooser (#85)

As I have said before, I am not interested in getting into a cut and paste war with you. I am not going to change your opinion and you are not going to change mine. For those interested, I have given a webpage for them to begin their quest. If they do not like wikipedia, then they can do a google search and find a webpage they do like.

Personally I thought the wikipedia article was fair and balanced. It presented the main critiques and the rebuttals to those critiques. Did it have every single critique? Probably not. If you are not happy with what they have to say on the matter, then you can sign up and include information you feel is missing. There is a message board for just that purpose. Since you enjoy having cut and paste wars, it would probably be a perfect environment for you because you would be dealing with people who are as passionate about it as you are. Then you can nit-pick their information until your heart's content and visa versa.

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2007-03-10   12:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: scrapper2, ALL (#87)

frontpage and Washington Times - read those yourself - I'd prefer not to pollute my mind.

ROTFLOL! No, the Washington Post and NYTimes are more your style.

Professors Mearsheimer and Walt were forced to use a British publication

Sort of like Roberts and Burkham using a British publication?

ROTFLOL!

"Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened."

So that is your definition of a neocon? Someone who believes a democracy should come to the aid of other democracies?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-10   13:57:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: BeAChooser (#89)

Irving Kristol's article on neoconservativism: "Barring extraordinary events, the United States will always feel obliged to defend, if possible, a democratic nation under attack from nondemocratic forces, external or internal. That is why it was in our national interest to come to the defense of France and Britain in World War II. That is why we feel it necessary to defend Israel today, when its survival is threatened."

BAC: So that is your definition of a neocon? Someone who believes a democracy should come to the aid of other democracies?

Read Irving Kristol's entire article for the complete definition of what neoconservativism entails.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/000tzmlw .asp

"The Neoconservative Persuasion"

From the August 25, 2003 issue: What it was, and what it is.

by Irving Kristol

08/25/2003, Volume 008, Issue 47

I cut and pasted 1 paragraph out of Irving Kristol's amazingly unabashedly arrogant vision of what his brethern's mindset means to the GOP and to our nation because it's central to all neocon's beliefs - the automatically assumed need ( in neocons' minds only) to expend American blood and treasure to defend a thuggish monotheistic racist nation state called Israel - a state which btw creates its own problems because of its brutal if not barbaric oppressive actions to the Palestinians as well to its neighbors like Lebanon for example this past summer - a nation state that is judged to be the greatest threat to world peace in polls conducted internationally - a nation that is an albatross not an ally to America - a nation that sells highly sensitive defense technology secrets to America's enemy - a nation that spies on America routinely ( FOX News has agents like Jonathon Pollard commit espionage and a nation that attacked one of our naval ships (USS Liberty)and caused the deaths and injuries to American sailors - a nation that is in the top 25% wealth index of UN nations and has an economy that is equivalent to that of South Korea but still demands foreign aid and loans annually from the US taxpayer - a nation state which repeatedly refuses to sign a mutual defense treaty with America - a nation state whose paranoia about its Muslim neighbors caused its powerful lobby group - AIPAC - the 2nd most powerful lobby group in America, to use its considerable influence to propel our nation into an unnecessary war with Iraq, which posed no threat to America, and is now arm twisting our elected politicians to attack yet another nation in the near future, Iran, which is no danger to America.

I have absolutely zero problem with Israel using its own blood and treasure to defend itself as it chooses.

What I have a problem with is Israel manipulating my gov't to "do" the wars Israel wants done on its behalf. I want Israel out of my taxpayer pocket and I want Israel out of my nation's gov't and policy level decision making.

In fact I would love to see a law passed that no dual citizen - Israeli American or any other hyphenated variation - be allowed to run for Congress and no dual citizen be allowed to be appointed to a federal policy level position or be employed as a consultant at a federal policy level.

As for Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt - their research report was purposely blanked out - censored if you will - by American mainstream media because M&W's findings dared bring to light a foreign nation's inappropriate control of our foreign policy - a foreign nation that in fact is near and dear to the hearts of MSM owners and of MSM news editors, that's why - Burnham and Roberts chose to have their study reviewed by the prestigious Lancet medical journal. Dr. Mearsheimer and Roberts did not choose to make the London Review of Books as their one and only publication for bringing their study into the public discourse forum - the LRB choice was forced upon them because no American MSM would allow their study to get face time stateside.

Read Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt's study and judge for yourself. They are tenured professors at the U of Chicago and Harvard professors - not too shabby universities. Drs Mearsheimer and Walt include their email addresses at the following link if you have questions, BAC. The full text can be downloaded from various sites listed at the bottom of the following website url:

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm? abstract_id=891198

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-10   15:00:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: scrapper2, ALL (#90)

Read Irving Kristol's entire article for the complete definition of what neoconservativism entails.

Nah, I'd like to hear it in your own words. I don't want to have to *interpret* what Kristol wrote. That would lead to misunderstanding. What do YOU think defines a neocon. You can do it, can't you?

What I have a problem with is Israel manipulating my gov't to "do" the wars Israel wants done on its behalf.

So you think little ol' Israel is the puppet master?

As for Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt - their research report was purposely blanked out - censored if you will - by American mainstream media

Really think that? You find their videos on youtube. There are literally hundreds of hits on the internets concerning their views. I see that The New York Sun, The Nation, Anti-War dot com, socialistworker.org, salon.com, opinionjournal.com, The New York Review of Books, The Washington Post, csmonitor.com, NPR, CNN, The New Republic, History News Network, The Foreign Policy Research Institute, The New York Times, The Washington Note, The Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe, Democracy Now, and dozens of others carried their allegations. But you think they've been censored. ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-10   15:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: leveller, SkyDrifter, Diana, Christine, Robin (#0)

my female friend's brother was back from Iraq a week ago on leave. He is a captain and a chaplain both. He's also in a unit stationed in Baghdad and he goes out on patrol with the men. Chaplains are no longer in the rear as in Vietnam. He's been there since October. He was in the first Iraq war 17 years ago and in Somalia in 1992 also. He only re-enlisted to support his 7 children. he's already lost some men under his command. and like I said he's right out there with them. I say praise the lord that he is still alive.

and this fellow who is over there doesn't even believe in the war. and he hates Bush.

we were at a public park where rich people live and he was speaking loudly saying that the soldiers in Iraq all root for the Phoenix Suns because their team leader Steve Nash is a white fellow only 6'2" tall and how unusual it was because white people can't play basketball (he said loudly). and some rich people who heard him started telling him to shut up and that he was a bigot. and the guy's wife gave those people an earful about how he was home from Iraq and told them to shut up.

in north Scottsdale where we were it is against the law to even build homes or apartments for poor people and those rich people up there almost all support the war, yet almost none of them serve. Can't stand those people

Judgement is coming.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Red Jones  posted on  2007-03-10   15:54:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Red Jones (#92)

A little Justice in our lifetime, would be sweet.

Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)

robin  posted on  2007-03-10   15:59:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: robin, Red Jones, Elliott Jackalope (#93)

A little Justice in our lifetime, would be sweet.

seriously. as EJ said, i want to see it now. Red, thanks for sharing that story.

christine  posted on  2007-03-10   16:29:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: BeAChooser, bluedogtxn, a vast rightwing conspirator, Fred Mertz, Burkeman1, Brian S, randge, leveller, aristeides, robin, Hayek Fan, christine, AGAviator, rowdee, diana, All including lurkers (#91) (Edited)

a. So you think little ol' Israel is the puppet master?

b. Really think that? You find their videos on youtube. There are literally hundreds of hits on the internets concerning their views. I see that The New York Sun, The Nation, Anti-War dot com, http://socialistworker.org, http://salon.com, http://opinionjournal.com, The New York Review of Books, The Washington Post, http://csmonitor.com, NPR, CNN, The New Republic, History News Network, The Foreign Policy Research Institute, The New York Times, The Washington Note, The Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe, Democracy Now, and dozens of others carried their allegations. But you think they've been censored. ROTFLOL!

a. It's what learned scholars like Drs Mearsheimer and Walt have demonstrated through their meticulous research to be the case.

M&W's research paper does not contain "allegations" - it contains fact after fact after fact, all of which are heavily documented, and in fact many of their citations are sourced from Israelis and/or Israeli journals.

Indeed the bibliography of support documents and sources are almost as long as M&W's study's thesis.

M&W's paper in total = 83 pages

M&W's thesis = 44 pages

M&W's bibliography of support = 38 pages

******************************************************************************

b. Once the sh*t the fan because of LRB's publishing of Dr. Mearsheimer's and Walt's summary and letter of defense, other American journals followed through but in the main to publish all the hue and cry and character assassination articles and letters from IsraelFirsters. Had LBR not show cased M&W's research paper, the US mainstream media would have succeeded in effectively shut down public debate about M & W's findings.

Has network news interviewed Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt? Where and when did CNN interview M&W, as you claim? Btw, do you think Suzy Soccer Mom and Joe Six Pack read The Foreign Policy Research Institute journal?

Here's what happened when Mearsheimer and Walt went through to get their study's findings into the public forum stateside - some cut and paste from the website you mention, BAC, thank you for reminding me:

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=8796

"Israel and Moral Blackmail: The Israel lobby is bringing out the big guns"

April 03, 2006

In a hint of what these two distinguished scholars had to go through to get their study published, they aver: "It is hard to imagine any mainstream media outlet in the United States publishing a piece like this one."

It turns out that, before turning to Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government – where Walt is academic dean (albeit not for long) – they attempted to get a version of their study published in an American magazine:

"John Mearsheimer says that the pro-Israel lobby is so powerful that he and co- author Stephen Walt would never have been able to place their report in a American-based scientific publication. 'I do not believe that we could have gotten it published in the United States,' Mearsheimer told the Forward. He said that the paper was originally commissioned in the fall of 2002 by one of America's leading magazines, 'but the publishers told us that it was virtually impossible to get the piece published in the United States.' Most scholars, policymakers and journalists know that 'the whole subject of the Israel lobby and American foreign policy is a third-rail issue,' he said. 'Publishers understand that if they publish a piece like ours it would cause them all sorts of problems.'"

Mary-Kay Wilmers, editor of the London Review of Books – which published a shortened version – tells the Guardian that the piece "was originally written for, but rejected by, the Atlantic Monthly and picked up by the LRB, when Wilmers 'became aware of its existence.'"

In an important sense, then, it appears that, like Palestine, the American literary and political scene is Israeli-occupied territory. As Mearsheimer and Walt point out, academia, too, suffers from the pro-Israel version of the Inquisition, suffering extensive efforts to "police" campuses for evidence of "anti-Israel" sentiments. As if to verify this charge, the authors have run smack up against the campus Thought Police, with Harvard University taking the unusual step of pulling its logo from their piece, altering and making a boilerplate disclaimer more prominent, and finally announcing that Walt would be resigning shortly from his post as academic dean.

This question of Walt's resignation has aroused some interest – especially since it was made shortly after major Harvard contributor Robert Belfer (who gave $7.5 million to the Kennedy School in 1997) expressed his displeasure. This concatenation of events has occasioned a denial by Walt, who says that his stepping down had nothing to do with the controversy surrounding his work. This echoes the official statement put out by Harvard, as well as an e-mail to me by Melodie Jackson, the Kennedy School's director of communications and public affairs:

"There is no connection between the conclusion of Professor Walt's term as academic dean and the discussion around his recent paper. As agreed a year ago, professor Walt's term as academic dean will expire at the end of this academic year and has absolutely no connection to the current conversation around his paper."

Well, then, that's that – right? Move along, nothing to see here. But not quite. As the Harvard Crimson reports:

"[Kennedy School Dean David T.] Ellwood said that he sent an e-mail to Kennedy School faculty members on Feb. 21 – before the uproar over the article – informing them that Walt would end his term as academic dean in June. Ellwood said he also asked professors for recommendations regarding the search for the next academic dean.

"When asked to provide the Feb. 21 e-mail to The Crimson, Kennedy School spokeswoman Melodie Jackson declined to do so. …

"Walt's term as academic dean will be one year shorter than that of his predecessor, Frederick Schauer, who held the post from 1997 to 2002. Though Ellwood's statement made reference to a 'normal three-year cycle' of academic deans, three-year terms have not been the norm for administrators who have held that post in recent years.

"Ellwood himself held the post for a year before joining the Clinton administration in 1993, and he returned to the school in 1995 to serve a two- year term as academic dean. Alan A. Altshuler held the post for two years during Ellwood's absence. And before that, Albert Carnesale was the school's academic dean for a decade."

It seems clear that Walt, loyal to Harvard, and understandably not wanting to widen the breach between himself and the university administration, is stretching the truth, to put it charitably. He says the decision to alter the disclaimer and remove the Harvard logo from his work was made to correct a misimpression that the study was the work of "two Harvard researchers," and that their work constituted an "official report." However, I can't find a single news story about this brouhaha that falsely reports Professor Mearsheimer as resident at Harvard: all correctly describe him as a professor of political science at the University of Chicago.

Furthermore, it is difficult to define what would constitute an "official report." Universities publish all sorts of research on a wide variety of topics, written from any number of perspectives: the decision to publish implies that the university has held the work to a high academic standard and found it at least acceptable, if not exemplary. It never constitutes "official" agreement with the views expressed therein.

It is undeniable that the Mearsheimer-Walt study was singled out for special treatment: out of all the "working papers" published by Harvard, only this one now lacks the university's logo. Only this one has special language appended to it putting the reader on notice that neither Harvard nor the University of Chicago "take positions on the scholarship of individual faculty." Ouch! If that isn't a slap in the face – impugning their scholarship – then I don't know what is. (Go here to see the difference between the treatment afforded the Mearsheimer-Walt "working paper" and others recently published.)...

*************************************************************************

c. Here's a link to the video clips ( 11 in total) and transcript of the SINGLE public debate that took place stateside - finally - at Cooper Union in New York City on 10/11/06.

Amazing is it not? The most important issue facing our nation - our foreign policy - what contributes to war or peace for America and Americans - and there is 1 single debate on it and it was held in the fall of 2006 in NYC - that's sure to get the ears of the Americans living in regions of America that are the main source of troops fighting and dying in Iraq and perhaps Iran in the near future - and this debate took place 8 months after M&W's study was released. Sigh....download and save while you still can, 4um folks and lurkers!

http://www.scribemedia.org/2006/10/11/israel-lobby/

Israel Lobby debate at Cooper Union NYC 10/11/06

11 video clips in total as well as a text transcript

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-10   16:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: BeAChooser (#91)

Really think that? You find their videos on youtube. There are literally hundreds of hits on the internets concerning their views. I see that The New York Sun, The Nation, Anti-War dot com, http://socialistworker.org, http://salon.com, http://opinionjournal.com, The New York Review of Books, The Washington Post, http://csmonitor.com, NPR, CNN, The New Republic, History News Network, The Foreign Policy Research Institute, The New York Times, The Washington Note, The Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe, Democracy Now, and dozens of others carried their allegations. But you think they've been censored. ROTFLOL!

Come, come now, Beechy. Don't go off the rails now. The Second Amendment is not dead yet. There is plenty of criticism to be read on outlets for readers with low-freqency vocabularies.

But the Megaphone, the Voice belongs to Time Warner, Disney, Murdoch’s News Corporation, Bertelsmann, Viacom (CBS) and General Electric (NBC). They own most of the newspapers, magazines, books, radio and TV stations, and movie studios of the United States. They own what passes for the "Evening News" as well as the front pages and opinion pages of all the dailies. It's here that the average Joe gets his news. And it's here that serious critism gets no play.

Mearsheimer and who??

Money trumps . . . uh . . . . peace . . sometimes. - GW Bush

randge  posted on  2007-03-10   17:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]