In response to your "Has it? Blah blah blah blam spam spam spam spam." I'd like to say ROTFLMAO!
And demanding an admin source for a quote like, "(We) feared (that) destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut (our) case for war against Saddam." is absurd.
The BushCo ops aren't ever going to be caught in a quote like that. But, the obvious and irrefutable truth is BushCo and his cronies wanted this "war", and they phonied up intel and pulled out all stops to sell it. When it suited them they pointed to Saddam's alleged non compliance with a UN resolution, hypocritically ignoring Israel's topping the non compliance list.
This fact coupled with the attacks against every legit critic (because there can be no such thing as a legit critic of the war or Israel-their divine right demands it) is all the reason anyone needs to dismiss the shills.
Why waste time arguing with lying, murdering, criminals and their facilitators/enablers? If the rules of honest debate and fair play cannot be successfully invoked and if the next morning any points you scored are ignored and the shill is right back on the playbook, then you should assume that any frustration you display is a source of humor for them.
I wouldn't give them the satisfaction.
If you're having fun trying to pin a greased pig then, fine.
But, if you ever expect him to say "Wow, you sure nailed me with that inescapable logic! I concede the point!" then you will be disappointed.
He is by his own admission posting for the benefit of casual readers who may scan a post and pick up a tidbit of misinfo then later repeat it. He isn't posting for the benefit of those who may be following your exchanges and keeping score. (You're slaughtering him on points of course)
BushCo's constituents and supporters are not known for their keen analytical abilities and intellectual honesty. They're herded like sheep with sound bites and faux patriotism. They won't ever do their homework then conclude that they've been duped. In fact they'll go to their graves believing that Bush is a great "Merken" unless their own Kosher pastors and/or Rush/Sean/Bill tell them otherwise, and that's not likely.
So, if you're attempting to defeat a worthy adversary in a stand up fight and he's only concerned with repeating talking points for the benefit of little monkey children who scan the thread (and, what are Bush supporters but immature simians?) then his goal is met and yours isn't.
Why don't you try this: I say what I have to say and shill boy simply has to read it because like gay stud/Republican Jeff Gannon he's a "boytoy on a mission". BUT, I don't ever have to suffer his replies because as I told him, unless a "sponsor" thinks his posts are worthy of my time and quotes them then flags me I don't read them at all! In order to be worthy of my time and consideration at least one reasonable, respected member has to consider shill boy's points worthy, or they are in effect filtered for me!
Would you have stood up in the White House press room and tried to seriously reply to Gannon's rhetorical, scripted questions? (White House protocol aside of course)
Well, shill boy's talking points require no more serious consideration than Gannon's. Nothing anyone could have said could ever mean more to Gannon than his gay relationships with closeted admin officials. He isn't motivated by truth or logic, but rather the soft moaning of his satisfied customers. And by pretending to be a blue suit he was (and probably is) even more attractive to the dirty queers masquerading as "conservatives".
And considering how the White House operates, shill boy may be Gannon! Good luck trying to prick holes in the stiff defenses he's erected before you! While you're trying to argue with truth and logic he's waving a stiffy...and neocon talking points....for a bunch of homos!
Now, in light of this don't his non sequitur replies make a lot more sense?
So, if you're attempting to defeat a worthy adversary in a stand up fight and he's only concerned with repeating talking points for the benefit of little monkey children who scan the thread (and, what are Bush supporters but immature simians?) then his goal is met and yours isn't.
I'm long past attempting to debate with this botspammer. That's why I only supply proof when I feel it's appropriate, and principally to impeach the botspammer's contentions. Otherwise I'd be at the computer or the library 24/7 to meet the spammer's demands for proof and more proof.
I will, however, continue to rebut lies, misinformation, and seriously flawed excuses for arguments as I feel like it. And try to economize my use of words and my time while doing so. Not really for his benefit, but it does make me a better writer.
As far as lurkers scanning the thread - BAC's pretend audience - no one's going to take mountains of words seriously when they continually get rebutted with a few short paragraphs or sentences. Even in presentations to top management the Golden Rule is "Keep It Simple, Stupid." Even more so when the [pretend] audience is not at that level of sophistication. For BAC to allege that anyone scanning this site is going to wade through mountains of his contorted logic, when all that person has to do is skip ahead and see the concise rebuttal, is just further proof of his delusional nature.
"ROTFLOL!"
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
Speaking of bin Laden videos, do you view the "confession" video as authentic?
I believe there are 2 sides and not just 1 that want war in the Middle East.
The majority of the world's Muslim population wants to get on with their daily lives just like all other people everywhere else and does not want war. However among them there is certainly a minority that claims its violent actions are sanctioned by that religion. And the actions of this country over the last few years have been to increase the power and influence of that violent minority.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
As far as lurkers scanning the thread - BAC's pretend audience - no one's going to take mountains of words seriously when they continually get rebutted with a few short paragraphs or sentences. Even in presentations to top management the Golden Rule is "Keep It Simple, Stupid." Even more so when the [pretend] audience is not at that level of sophistication. For BAC to allege that anyone scanning this site is going to wade through mountains of his contorted logic, when all that person has to do is skip ahead and see the rebuttal, is just further proof of his delusional nature.
For BAC to allege that anyone scanning this site is going to wade through mountains of his contorted logic, when all that person has to do is skip ahead and see the rebuttal, is just further proof of his delusional nature.
perfect
Let's take this a little futher.
Can you as site administrator tell how many people are lurking on BAC's threads?
ROTFLAMO!
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
BushCo's follies is an uproarious bundle of sight gags and Vaudevillian punch lines, and the constant repetition of themes such as calling the one Pentagon officer who tells the truth a "liar" while pretending that the world doesn't know how Moe Bush, Larry Cheney, Curly Rumsfeld (with an occasional episode featuring "Shemp" Wolfowitz) browbeat, threatened, bullied and fired every officer (who didn't have the good fortune to recently retire) and civilian employee who was tempted to speak truthfully.
And, the army's own expert returned from Iraq with his dying team and soon to be failing health and reported that there should be an immediate and permanent moratorium on the use of DU, and he too was called a "liar" by our resident shill.
And, the army physician who examined and treated(?) him refused to document the effects of DU, and from this we can be absolutely certain of two things; Maj. Rokke had no reason to lie, and the doctor is under orders to avoid documenting the effects of DU.
And what did shill boy say? Why, there's no documentation to support the diagnoses of DU sickness in any service people, or the estimated 500,000 Iraqi babies who were affected. And, what about the ALA guard unit who upon return from Desert Storm suffered a 67% rate of profound birth defects, including children born with no eyes, arms or brain stems?
Well, because a FOX is guarding the hen house instead of serving a watchdog media role, these and other stories of sick and dying around the world just don't exist. (BushCo understands the power of national news and media images all too well. Just as they arranged for the "spontaneous" demonstration to pull Saddam's statue down to bounce off of satellites, they arrange to have DU stories that quote credible sources or show deformed babies strangled in the media nursery along with any parent reporters who can't take hints.)
And, at the mere suggestion that our president, the most weasely, corrupt, blatantly evil in our nation's history would lack the character to admit something as devastating as the truth about DU, his shills recoil in horror at the assertion that he's lied about anything! These folks think it's just coincidence that bad news stories never saw daylight even as stories labeling Wilson, Plame and Ritter as " Democrat fibbers" and "Bush haters" all of whom are natural born "liars" fly from mainstream media sources to Mom and Pop's TVs, papers and radios at the speed of lie!
So, as near as I can discern the culprits fall into two main groups-the deliberate disinfo artists who float these turds of "Bush truths" and the followers, some of whom can't understand the manipulation and some who won't.
Either way we've passed the point of no return and the republic has peaked and begun its decline as predicted by "Poor Richard" and others who knew history better than Bush knew how to use daddy's influence to avoid learning anything while in college, and the rest of his adult life.
In fact it's a point of considerable pride with George. "Whatever the rules are they don't apply to me. My daddy is CIA and the most influential importer of all of Air America's clients, and he can make governors' and senators' planes corkscrew into the earth on the sunniest, blue bird flying days. And , if you make fun of my speech and grammar your kids may be run over. Maybe not today but, when I leave office I'll have lots of spare time and a list of things to do...."
BushCo shills can find nothing bad to say about him, and their one size fits all reply is, "Just another Bush hater!" without ever explaining why he's so universally despised.
The good news is, once Bush no longer needs these shills they'll be in the same boat (or rail car) as the rest of us.
And then we can only hope that their stubborn belief in Bush's infallibility will expose them. And then those of us who are so inclined can show them Christian love and forgiveness, assuming that such displays aren't against the law by then.
The majority of the world's Muslim population wants to get on with their daily lives just like all other people everywhere else and does not want war. However among them there is certainly a minority that claims its violent actions are sanctioned by that religion. And the actions of this country over the last few years have been to increase the power and influence of that violent minority.
True. But that doesn't change the fact that the bin Laden "confession" video was an obvious fake, yet was used by Bush and Cheney as "proof" that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
I couldn't believe they actually tried to pass that off as real.
I can't believe anyone was stupid enough to think it WAS real. Obviously, those that released it knew ahead of time that the majority of Americans ARE that dumb.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
I can't believe anyone was stupid enough to think it WAS real. Obviously, those that released it knew ahead of time that the majority of Americans ARE that dumb.
The govt thought about it and realized that their own "turism experts" (dutiful friendlies like former state department Zionist Robert H. Kupperman and former FBI profiler Clint VanZandt-the guy who told us that the Beltway Sniper was a white militia type-you know, a gun lovin', tax hatin' joo baitin' sumbitch. Oh wait. Thatz mee! :)) taught us that terrorists always claim responsibility for their dasdardly deeds for reasons which you are already well aware. And 9/11 was the first time in the history of terrorism as we define it (violence or threat of same to effect political change) that no one had stepped forward.
And, govt has invested considerable intellectual capital programming us to believe that fearless, fanatical Muslims can't wait to get to Allah. And, this "responsibility vacuum" was an embarrassment for those charged with the continuity of the infotainment at places like Freeperville.
So, the fact that the "fanatical Islamist" the govt wanted to finger didn't claim responsibility, (for good reason-he didn't do it) left this gaping spall that needed some of "BushCo's Patented PR Epoxy" (an improved version of P.T. Barnum's formula for successful repair of disbelief) so the govt's shills would have something to work with.
I mean, even folks who aren't inclined to be mistrustful of govt thought it was darn suspicious that no one claimed responsibility for 9/11, and even more suspicious that Bin Laden hadn't crowed about it since the govt said that A) he's a fanatical Muslim, and B) he despises the Great Satan, and C) he supposedly pulled it off! (And talk radio has partnered devoutly religious Shi'ite Osama with his secular Sunni enemy Saddam-The Sunnis and The Shia don't mix, but most Americans know nothing of this and can't weigh the unlikelihood of this happening. But, our govt can't let a little thing like irreconcilable religious differences stop them from using 9/11 to vilify everyone and every war in every theater that otherwise has no justification.
In fact Osama had denied 9/11 involvement, and that kind of news has a way of getting back to the wrong people. Thankfully his denial wasn't in English on tape and Al-Jazeera had nothing to show the world, and, The Good Lord in his infinite wisdom working through public schools made America mostly illiterate and in so doing he keeps the numbers of informed persons down to firing squad-manageable levels.
BUT, when the president received a letter from the LIVING WITH DOWN SYNDROME ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA signed in crayon by a million people and questioning the events of that terrible day, he decided that even a bad video with a bad double and a bad translation is better than nothing.
Like the Warren Commissioners before them BushCo has decreed that the laws of physics don't apply when inconvenient, so, "they" just added the bad doppelgänger Bin Laden confession video to the list of things that Americans with any professional and/or financial connection to fedgov had better not examine too closely or question ever if they value their livelihoods, their families and their kneecaps.
Is this a great country or what?
Where else can a man like me sprout from humble Southern stock and grow up to accuse the most powerful creature in the world of being the most evil lizardman to ever slither from the primordial ooze?
I mean, even folks who aren't inclined to be mistrustful of govt thought it was darn suspicious that no one claimed responsibility for 9/11, and even more suspicious that Bin Laden hadn't crowed about it since the govt said that A) he's a fanatical Muslim, and B) he despises the Great Satan, and C) he supposedly pulled it off! (And talk radio has partnered devoutly religious Shi'ite Osama with his secular Sunni enemy Saddam-The Sunnis and The Shia don't mix, but most Americans know nothing of this and can't weigh the unlikelihood of this happening. But, our govt can't let a little thing like irreconcilable religious differences stop them from using 9/11 to vilify everyone and every war in every theater that otherwise has no justification.
Great rant.......
HOWSUMEVER, might I remind one and all that when you are listing anything about the 'terrorists', you MUST always remember to list that D) he hates us for our freedoms!
Got it? Sheesh..........and here I was thinkin youse about as smart as them eye-stein pepples. :)
What's important is to keep them from killing other people.
Under Saddam, he didn't.
Under American occupation, he killed thousands.
So fuck you, troll
Thank you again for proving my point about what passes for *debate* here at 4um
Idiotic non-responses like the one you made above, like "Zarqawi is dead" when he expected to die in the first place, are insults to any one with half a brain who reads them.
When you insult other people on a site that already doesn't like you, expect the same in return.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
Idiot, if your strategy is creating more enemies rather than fewer enemies, it is a failure.
I guess you missed my point. Unless you think the strategy in the entire middle east should be pull out. Abandon any allies in the region. Yankee Go Home. Oh, wait! That is what you think. Right?
Address the issue, which is the WOT is supposed to result in fewer terrorists, not more.
Did the war against Germany result in fewer German soldiers ... before we won? Did the war against Vietnam result in fewer North Vietnamese soldiers? Did the cold war result in smaller Soviet forces ... before we won? Could it be that you are trying to look at this in too simplistic a fashion?
"So have things really changed for the worse?"
According to the people of Iraq, yes.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530526.ece "DESPITE sectarian slaughter, ethnic cleansing and suicide bombs, an opinion poll conducted on the eve of the fourth anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq has found a striking resilience and optimism among the inhabitants. The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003, shows that by a majority of two to one, Iraqis prefer the current leadership to Saddam Hussein’s regime, regardless of the security crisis and a lack of public services."
And your claim that "thousands dying week in and week out when Saddam was in control" is dubious to put it mildly.
On the contrary. That was the claim of many of those now on your side of the Iraq war debate. It was a claim based on experts in epidemiology at the UN and WHO. It was a claim blessed by none other than the Lancet, whom you've defended on numerous occasions.
Why was Bush "just like the DemocRATS" and turned down 3 separate requests by his own armed forces to attack Zarqawi when he was in Kurdistan beyond the reach of Saddam and protected by the United States Air Force.
Well first of all, he wasn't "protected by the United States Air Force". Second, there was no more guarantee that bombing the camps in Northern Iraq would kill al-Zarqawi than there was that bombing bin Laden's camps would kill bin Laden. They did that remember? And a few years later was 9/11.
You have NO plan for what you would have done about a guy in Iraq who was funding and masterminding plans to kill tens of thousands in Jordan, including many Americans.
Right under the nose of the American occupation, Zarqawi actually did kill thousands including many Americans, and not just "plot" to do it as you allege.
But eventually they found and killed him. Were it up to you, he'd still be running around free ... plotting, planning and murdering. Perhaps tens of thousands.
So you've been rebutted.
I notice that you didn't deny my assertion that you'd NOT have bombed al-Zarqawi's camps if it had been up to you. That you'd NOT have put men on the ground to make sure he was dead. No, instead you would have sounded the retreat and pulled all American influence out of the Middle East and the rest of the world.
Your comments about "What would you have done about Zarqawi" are absolutely and totally irrelevant
On the contrary ... they've exposed who you are AGAviator.
You've absolutely and totally been refuted.
I notice you haven't denied my assertion that you'd NOT have bombed the camps in Northern Iraq, if you'd have been President at the time. Just has you'd not have gone to the aid of Kuwait in 1991. I'm sorry AGAviator, but the readers of this thread should should know that you think we have no business being in the ME at all. That we should just abandon all allies there and withdraw all influence we have ... all contacts we have. Then they'll have no reason to attack us. Right?
And I notice that you don't deny my assertion that you don't think the WOT is real. You think it is just as phony as what the many links I've provided say about al-Zarqawi. Right? Folks should know that too.
Iraq is a safe haven for terrorists to this day.
Iraq is not a safe haven for terrorists. If you think so, you don't know the meaning of the term "safe haven". There is no place in Iraq where they can go that we won't strike if we find out about them. A far cry from the days of Saddam, when terrorists were even operating in Baghdad under the nose of Saddam to attack us.
That's why thousands of non-terrorists are dying every month.
Make up your mind. Is it sectarian violence or al-Qaeda terrorists who are responsible for the killing of most innocent Iraqis? Or would you claim its us?
Miklaszewski wrote that "the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam."
"And his proof for this? What's the name of his source?"
More of your patented intellectual dishonesty.
What's the problem, AGAviator? Don't you know who his source is?
The facts are that Zarqawi was not killing people when Saddam was in power
Now that's not true. A US diplomat was murdered by al-Zarqawi when Saddam was still in power. And al-Zarqawi was in Baghdad at the time.
Fuck you and do your own research, troll.
Thanks for demonstrating once again how 4umers debate ... those, that is, that don't hide behind bozo filters to avoid debate entirely.
Why waste time arguing with lying, murdering, criminals and their facilitators/enablers? If the rules of honest debate and fair play cannot be successfully invoked and if the next morning any points you scored are ignored and the shill is right back on the playbook, then you should assume that any frustration you display is a source of humor for them.
That's right, 4umers. Withdraw behind a bozo filter like HoundDawg.
Nothing like living in a world of self-delusion where only one side of the debate is even heard.
HOWSUMEVER, might I remind one and all that when you are listing anything about the 'terrorists', you MUST always remember to list that D) he hates us for our freedoms!
Got it? Sheesh..........and here I was thinkin youse about as smart as them eye-stein pepples. :
Some days are more about style and I indulge myself, hopefully with the understanding of others.
And, you're right.
They hate us for our govt's freedom to select a country and exercise the freedom to slaughter them all, plunder their antiquities, contract their mineral rights away for profit and power, and take any discussion of morality off the table because Israel wants it and ....Hell, I shouldn't have said that. Because Israel wants it no explanation should be offered, period.
If I'm still in shock and trying to get my mind around the truth then I'm a handicapped excuse for an American. Real Americans don't faint at the sight of rivers of blood. And they don't demand explanations for piles of bodies.
That's why I only supply proof when I feel it's appropriate
Doesn't wash, AGAviator.
The reason you don't supply proof for much of what you claim is that you CAN'T.
I will, however, continue to rebut lies, misinformation, and seriously flawed excuses for arguments as I feel like it.
Good, I hope you try. Just like you've tried (and failed) here.
As far as lurkers scanning the thread - BAC's pretend audience
Go ahead, AGAviator, insult anyone who might chance upon this website. I wouldn't dream of doing that. I just want them to know what's really going on here. And dig a little deeper than just accepting the nonsense you folks post and claim on topic after topic.
Just curious, Christine. How many different folks actually visit 4um on an average day? Compared to the number of members. You must have statistics like that. I'm just wondering how big this "pretend" audience is?
I like him enough in a weird kind of way when he is not being too rude. He is fun to try to pin down and you have to admire his tenacity though I get angry with him sometimes.
Christine can you restore his ROTFLOF! privilages as it took away from his much-needed humorous side.
And, the army's own expert returned from Iraq with his dying team
Never happened. Post ANY source that actually confirms what Rokke claims about his credentials, time in Iraq and the condition of his team. Go ahead.
Maj. Rokke had no reason to lie
Yet he did. Clearly did. On multiple occasions. So why did he lie, Dawg?
And what did shill boy say? Why, there's no documentation to support the diagnoses of DU sickness in any service people
I never said any such thing. Strawmen seem to be all your side has, Dawg.
or the estimated 500,000 Iraqi babies who were affected.
Estimated by whom? *Dr* Rokke? A guy who LIES? Certainly no health physicist has estimated that. Nor any other peer reviewed credible source.
And, what about the ALA guard unit who upon return from Desert Storm suffered a 67% rate of profound birth defects, including children born with no eyes, arms or brain stems?
Oh by all means link us to the source of this claim.
Actually, he did. And he planned to kill many more while still under Saddam. If we hadn't invaded, the attack on Jordan would still have occurred ... and perhaps succeeded since then he would been able to monitor the planning more carefully instead of spending most of his time RUNNING from Coalition forces looking for him. And then tens of thousands would have died including everyone in the US embassy in Amman. How many Americans would that have been, AGAviator?
When you insult other people on a site that already doesn't like you
I haven't insulted anyone while on this site. I've been most courteous. Just like now.
Even at LP I never really insulted people. I just pointed out the truth about them. Some were liars. Some were democRATS. Some didn't like America. In each case, there were clear reasons to think those assertions were right. But I never used foul language. I never called insulted the intelligence of someone unless they'd already insulted mine (and even then I often ignored their insults).
And now even posting facts to 4umers is considered an insult. Go figure. ROTFLOL!
#204. To: Zipporah, AGAviator, christine, ALL (#195)
FYI in 06 we had 13,101,026 hits
Wow! So the hundred or so 4um members are either really addicted to this site or there are quite a few lurkers stumbling onto the site from time to time.
christine never took away my ROTFLOL! privleges. I agreed to reduce the usage of the term to see if she was right ... that 4umers would become more civil to me if I did. So far it looks like christine was wrong.