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Title: LP owner allows poster to plant 1-pixel gifs in order to track LP users
Source:
Libertypost
URL Source: http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/ ... .cgi?ArtNum=179683&Disp=16#C16
Published: Mar 9, 2007
Author: add925
Post Date: 2007-03-09 14:17:36 by F.A. Hayek Fan
Keywords: None
Views: 8938
Comments: 257
FYI....very interesting indeed.
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#76. To: BeAChooser (#69)
Thousands and thousands of islamo-fanatics have been created by American support of Israel, invading Afghanistan and invading Iraq. They have every right to attack us there. It's their land, not ours, you fucking nitwit.
False.
Yes I read that long thread, but that's a cryptic answer. So what did you mean, first he said it's not important who his friends are, then you gave him that somewhat ominous answer and I wondered what you meant by that. And when Scrapper2 said something about being taken away in a boxcar, and you said you would care, did you mean you'd care as in you'd be against it, that you would want no harm to come to her or did you mean you'd care in that you'd be all for it? Sometimes you're not real clear on those issues.
You're living in a dream world. Go read some newspapers from the time. The fact is, within 6 months the US was on its way to winning because they had some political and military leadership who knew how to lead. Oh yeah, and the President at the time was a Democrat! ROTFLAMO!
Not the issue. AGAviator claimed we could NOT sustain such losses. 300,000 plus dead and missing in WW2 proves that isn't true. It is true. Didn't you pay any attention to the news? The terrorists were even convicted of the plot. One of those convicted was al-Zarqawi. Not the question. What would you have done about al-Zarqawi if he'd killed a few hundred or thousand Americans in such a plot (not to mention tens of thousands of Jordanians) given that Saddam wasn't doing anything to curtail his activities? Well, that's your opinion. Again, your opinion. Opinions are a dime a dozen. So are "advisors".
Well let's see, 2 trillion divided by 10 trillion per year for 3 years. Yep ... 5 to 10 percent of GDP.
First of all, it wasn't scrapper who said that and second, yes, I'd be against it.
But at what cost? To win the war they spent over 300,000 American lives and a fantastic percentage of the GDP. Over what? A few islands? And a case can be made that we forced the Japanese into attacking us when we cutoff their access to oil. What right did we have to do that?
Yes it was SmokinOps, just testing (!). I guess you don't want to answer about AGAviator's friends.
You're so full of yourself. Only this year's GDP is "current."
You're changing the subject. The war was not won or lost because of the media or the Democrats. In fact, the Democrats were the party in power.
a. Oh my, do I detect seething white hot anger in the ever so polite and civil, BeAChooser, because I used the name of Precious ( aka Israel) in vain? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Do you wuv Israel, BAC, so much that you believe American citizen-soldiers should fight and die in ME wars for Israel's benefit? Please answer my question. b. As for Philip Zelikow's position and stature... I got news for you, Boozer, Philip Zelikow is not just a run of the mill "advisor" as you would like the lurkers/visitors to think. Professor Philip Zelikow was appointed by the President of the U-S-A ( the highest elected officer in the land)to be the Executive Director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on America in September 2001 - the 9/11 commission. Professor Zelikow is a big shot. Get it, BAC? Also, Professor Zelikow is Jewish American so don't try to claim he is a KKK white supremacist or an anti-semite ( favorite character assassination techniques). "...Zelikow made his statements about "the unstated threat" during his tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports directly to the president. He served on the board between 2001 and 2003. "Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat [is] and actually has been since 1990 - it's the threat against Israel," Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on September 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of September 11 and the future of the war on al-Qaeda. "And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell," said Zelikow..." c. Also, the highly esteemed Professors Mearsheimer and Walt, from U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research study in March 2006 that confirmed what Zelikow said - the Iraq invasion was mainly for Israel's benefit. Israel refuses to sign a mutual defense treaty with America. It would appear that Israel can't be bothered to fight and die for America. Nice.
It's their land, not ours, you fucking nitwit. Ummm, not to BOT a brain they don't. The very act of defending your nation, or even seeking to defend your nation with modern weapons is "aggression" to the BOT brain and the DCniks. Indeed- defending your country from American invasion (which, BOTS believe "the people" of these weakling countries actually want to be invaded and bombed by America as we are that good and bring utopia where ever we go) is itself seen as "terrorism" and therefore illegitimate. Any resistance to American military aggression is evil to the BOT. The enemy subhuman and thus deserving of no rights or quarter- meat to be murdered or tortured to death at a whim. To the BOT- America, by definition cannot wage an immoral or evil war because BOTS believe (and this is why they are not conservatives at all but radicals and fascists) that America is destined to bring the world into a "New Age"- some believe chosen by GOD to do this while others just think of it in Proto Marxian terms as "inevitiable". They see history as drawing to a climatic close- and America is leading the charge of progress into a bright perfect peaceful future. Thus- any who opposse America in this most noble of God or Providence given quests for the betterment of Humanity are "Evil". Thus to even raise arms in defense of your nation, your city, your town, even your family . . . from American arms is the act of vermin scum who must be exterminated from the face of the earth. BOTS don't view Moslems as enemies per se- but as literally vermin to be wiped away if they don't submit. Their precious DC can literally do no wrong (oh- they sometimes bitch about taxes but they don't mean it). Oh sure- there are "mistakes" and "war is hell" stuff. But they are never ever "Systematic" and never ever does America "mean" to kill a whole lot of people. It is just that the terrorists make them do it . . . Oh well- you get the idea.
One of BAC's many lies lifted from the Weekly Standard which he repeats endlessly. CIA Report Concludes No Saddam, Zarqawi Ties Post-Iraq invasion intelligence concluded there was no relationship between Saddam Hussein's regime and the al Qaeda terrorist Abu Musab Zarqawi, casting doubt on President Bush's statements as recently as last month that there was a link. A report released yesterday by the Senate intelligence committee said the CIA concluded last year that the Zarqawi-Saddam nexus did not exist. "Postwar information indicates that Saddam Hussein attempted, unsuccessfully, to locate and capture al-Zarqawi and that the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi," the bipartisan report concluded. It focused on comparing prewar intelligence on Iraq with post-invasion information from seized documents and interrogations of Saddam regime figures. After all, that would be bad for morale. Now I can pretty much guarantee that Looser is going to come up with some lame brain, off-the-wall excuse about why this story is not true and why his Weekly Standard botshill drivel should be taken as Gospel. And that is why (s)he has no respect on this site.
(Reuters) - Tomas Young was 22 years old and working as a waiter for a Kansas City-area eatery in 2001 when attacks on the World Trade Center spurred him to a patriotic act. "I wanted to go to Afghanistan to exact some retribution on the people who attacked us," said Young, who joined the Army days after the September 11 attacks. Today, the 27-year-old is paralyzed from the chest down because of a bullet he took in Iraq, not Afghanistan. He spends his days trying to convince others not to enlist -- part of a growing movement of Iraq war veterans, military family members and others determined to stop a war they see as ill-advised and possibly illegal. He's been brainwashed by the media, according to the 'bots.
Parse all you want (it's so Clintonesque). 2 trillion dollars over the period of the war so far is less than 10 percent of total GDP during that time. Here's an interesting webpage: http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-relative-size.php That has a chart showing military spending as a percentage of GDP from 1940 to 2003. It shows that during the course of WW2, the US spend over 45% of total GDP on the war during that time. So to suggest this war is not affordable but WW2 was doesn't seem logical.
My, haven't they changed.
No war is affordable, but especially this one one where every penny spent is a penny wasted.
You're the one whose parsing. You took this year's GDP and multiplied it by 3, Bubba. What's more, military spending does not tell the whole picture of military- related expenses included in other departmental budgets. Last but not least, after WW II the US economy went on a tremendous growth spurt because America had some undeveloped resources, and also plenty of manufacturing and contstruction jobs. No such possibility exists today, because nearly all the manufacturing jobs have been exported to foreign countries due to the greed and incompetence of both the corporate managers and the Republibot politicians they've bought.
Psychoanalysis is obviously not your forte. I don't believe I've ever actually used those techniques. Could setting up strawmen be one of your favorite debating techniques? But let's see what one can find on Zelikow that doesn't involve the KKK or charges of anti-semitism. Well first, because he was executive director of the 9/11 Commission, I'll bet he doesn't think bombs/missiles/DU/energybeams/nukes brought down the WTC or damaged the Pentagon. Should I use him as a reference when debunking those accusations? I also bet he doesn't think Bush lied us into war. And found this from none other than Zelikow regarding your assertion: ********** http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n10/letters.html From Philip Zelikow In their essay ‘The Israel Lobby’, John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt invoke comments made by me as evidence for a controversial assertion of their own concerning the motives for the US invasion of Iraq (LRB, 23 March): Readers may find it interesting to know what I actually said and how Mearsheimer and Walt appear to have misused my comments. My talk was on 10 September 2002 at a 9/11 anniversary symposium. I argued that possession of nuclear (or biological) weapons by Saddam Hussein would be very dangerous. Reflecting on my White House work during the Gulf War in 1990-91, I did point out that I believed then, and later, that the most likely direct target of an Iraqi WMD attack would be Israel, but that policymakers had no wish to emphasise this. That said, any US or European government, in 1991 or later, would rightly have regarded an Iraqi nuclear attack on Israel – or on any other country – as a horrific prospect they would do much to prevent. Neither of these conclusions – that Saddam’s possession of nuclear weapons would be dangerous, or that Israel might be most directly threatened by such weapons – was especially remarkable. These things were understood in 1991. Iraq tried very hard to pull Israel into that war and its politics, ultimately even bombarding Israel with ballistic missiles. The coalition laboured successfully to thwart Saddam and keep Israel out of that war. None of this, though, bore on the question of what to do about a possible Iraqi WMD programme in 2002. On that issue – whether or when the US ought to go to war with Iraq – I expressed no view in my September 2002 talk, or on any other public occasion during those years. Nor did I try to explain why the Bush administration went to war, either in 2002 or after the invasion in 2003 or 2004. And in those years I had little special knowledge of those motives. My work on the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (from which I resigned in February 2003) had not involved Iraq. So how did my views wind up in Mearsheimer and Walt’s essay as evidence that Bush went to war in part for Israel? In 2004, local reports of my September 2002 comments were discovered by the Inter Press Service. To put it mildly, that body has a strong political point of view. It circulated on the web an article headlined ‘War Launched to Protect Israel – Bush Adviser’. Without any evidence other than the old September 2002 quotes, the article’s lead was: ‘Iraq under Saddam Hussein did not pose a threat to the United States but it did to Israel, which is one reason why Washington invaded the Arab country, according to a speech made by a member of a top-level White House intelligence group.’ The claim has bounced around the internet ever since. Mearsheimer and Walt cite this article, which they found in Asia Times Online, as their source for my comments. The original slur did not deserve a response, but the situation is different when it is repeated by two accredited scholars, and endorsed by publication in the LRB. The claim still has three holes. First, like most of the world, I did think that, if Saddam Hussein possessed nuclear weapons, this would endanger the interests of America and the world in several ways, including the direct threat of a possible strike on Israel. Second, I did not state an opinion about whether this should be a cause for war in 2002-03. Third, I did not state an opinion – or even have any special knowledge – about the motives of the Bush administration in going to war in 2003. I hope that readers will contrast these points with what Mearsheimer and Walt wrote in the passage quoted above. Readers will also notice that the passage leads with a reference to the ‘Lobby’, of which I am clearly presumed to be a part. There is no evidence for that either. Philip Zelikow *********** Well ... I guess the above letter from Zelikow shows the falseness of that claim and casts further doubt on the credibility of those two "esteemed" professors. I'm surprised you hadn't seen this letter, scrapper. It was linked in the very first hit I encountered when I used my web browser with the search phrase "Philip Zelikow". Gee ... wish I wasn't on a self-imposed laugh ban.
Are you trying to deny that before we invaded, al-Zarqawi, operating out of Iraq, plotted attacks against US allies and Americans? Because I can provide a dozen articles from numerous sources indicating that the terrorists convicted of a plot in Jordan that was supposed to kill tens of thousands with a chemically laced bomb testified to those assertions. *********** http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2005_6_30.html "Jordan CW Plot Suspect Admits Meeting with Zarqawi A suspect in a foiled plot to detonate a chemical weapon in Jordan met beforehand in Iraq with fellow defendant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi to discuss the planned attacks, according to a videotaped confession played in court yesterday (see GSN, June 23). The tape shows defendant Azmi al-Jayousi confessing that he planned to carry out attacks in Jordan, the Associated Press reported. “I met with Abu Musab in Baghdad, who told me that a man called al-Jubouri will be the contact man between me and Abu Musab,” said Jayousi, one of 13 suspects in an alleged plan to attack Jordanian intelligence agency headquarters in Amman. Jayousi also admitted to agreeing to kill Lt. Col., Mahmoud Obeidat, a military prosecutor. “Abu Musab sent me [$70,000] and weapons with the so-called Jubouri as well as detonators to kill the prosecutor with a telecommunications device if we don’t succeed in shooting him,” Jayousi said on the tape. A second tape played in court showed how the defendants made the chemicals and explosives they intended to use against the intelligence service and other sites in Amman (Associated Press, June 29). *************** http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/world/11961452.htm "In his televised confession, Al-Jayousi said his group had plotted the chemical attack under instruction from al-Zarqawi." **************** http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/terencejeffrey/2004/05/05/11586.html "Four surviving alleged terrorists were shown in videotaped statements. Their self-professed leader was identified as Azmi al-Jayyusi. "In Herat (Afghanistan), I began training for Abu Musab," Jayyusi says in a translation published by the BBC. "The training included high-level explosives and poison courses. I then pledged allegiance to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and agreed to work for him without any discussion. After the fall of Afghanistan, I met al-Zarqawi once again in Iraq. "In Iraq, Abu Musab told me to go to Jordan along with Muwaffaq Udwan to prepare for a military operation in Jordan," said Jayyusi. Once he was in Jordan, Zarqawi sent him money via couriers, said Jayyusi. "He also supplied me, through messengers, with forged passports, identity cards and car registrations and all that is necessary."" ************** http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,184927,00.html Jordan Sentences Al-Zarqawi to Death in Absentia Wednesday, February 15, 2006 AMMAN, Jordan — A Jordanian military court on Wednesday sentenced to death nine men, including Al Qaeda in Iraq leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, for a plot to carry out a chemical attack against the kingdom. Al-Zarqawi and three others received the death penalty in absentia. But the plot's alleged mastermind, Azmi al-Jayousi, and four co-defendants were in the courtroom when the judge handed down the sentence for the 2004 plot, which security officials foiled before it could be carried out. "Bin Laden's organization is rising and we will be back!" the defendants shouted after the sentencing, referring to the Al Qaeda terror network led by Usama bin Laden. The court sentenced two of the 13 defendants to prison terms of between one and three years, and acquitted another two defendants. After the sentencing, the convicted men turned on one of the acquitted, a Syrian, and accused him of being an informer. They threatened to kill him, but they did not attack him in the dock. The 13 men — Jordanian, Syrian and Palestinians — were charged with conspiring to attack various sites in Jordan by setting off a cloud of toxic chemicals that would have killed thousands of people, according to prosecution estimates. The prosecution told the court that al-Zarqawi sent more than $118,000 to buy two vehicles which the plotters were to use in the attack. Suicide bombers were to drive the vehicles, loaded with explosives and chemicals, into the grounds of the General Intelligence Department in Amman and detonate them, prosecutors said. The plot also planned to attack the U.S. Embassy, the prime minister's office, and various intelligence and military court officials, the indictment said. The indictment said that when investigators conducted an experiment with small amounts of the chemicals found with the defendants, it produced "a strong explosion and a poison cloud that spread over an area of 500 square meters (yards)." From the geographical data that mastermind al-Jayousi had collected, it appeared he aimed to kill thousands of people in the chemical attack, the indictment said. Eight of the defendants were accused of belonging to a previously unknown group, "Kata'eb al-Tawhid" or Battalions of Monotheism, which security officials say is headed by al-Zarqawi and linked to Al Qaeda. The eight were also charged with conspiring to commit acts of terrorism and possession and manufacture of explosives. Previously, Jordan's military courts have condemned al-Zarqawi to death in absentia for the 2002 assassination of U.S. diplomat Lawrence Foley in Amman and for a failed suicide attack on the Jordanian-Iraqi border in 2004. **************** http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4838076/%20 Jordan militants confess to 'chemical' plot Alleged al-Qaida suspects wanted to kill 80,000 The Associated Press Updated: 7:08 p.m. ET April 26, 2004 AMMAN, Jordan - Al-Qaida plotted bombings and poison gas attacks against the U.S. Embassy and other targets in Jordan, two conspirators said in a confession aired Monday on Jordanian state television. Azmi al-Jayousi, identified as the head of the Jordanian cell of al-Qaida, appeared Monday in a 20-minute taped program and described meeting Jordanian militant Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi in neighboring Iraq to plan the foiled plot. A commentator said the plotters wanted to kill “80,000” Jordanians and had targeted the prime minister’s office, intelligence headquarters and the U.S. Embassy. Another Jordanian suspect, car mechanic Hussein Sharif Hussein, was shown saying al-Jayousi asked him to buy vehicles and modify them so that they could crash through gates and walls. U.S. officials have offered a $10 million reward for al-Zarqawi’s capture, saying he is a close associate of al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden and is trying to build a network of foreign militants in neighboring Iraq to work on al-Qaida’s behalf. His whereabouts are unknown. ... snip ... “I have pledged loyalty to Abu-Musab to fully be obedient and listen to him without discussion,” al-Jayousi said in the Jordanian television segment. He said he first met al-Zarqawi in Afghanistan, where al-Jayousi said he studied explosives, “before Afghanistan fell.” He said he later met al-Zarqawi in Iraq, but was not specific about when. The videotape also showed still photographs of al-Jayousi and nine other suspects. The commentator said four of those pictured had been killed in clashes with security forces. Al-Jayousi said he received about $170,000 from al-Zarqawi to finance the plot and used part of it to buy 20 tons of chemicals. He did not identify the chemicals, but said they “were enough for all the operations in the Jordanian arena.” Images of what the commentator said were vans filled with blue jugs of chemical explosives were included in the broadcast. Hussein, the car mechanic, said he met al-Jayousi in 1999 but did not clearly say when the terror plans were laid out. The bearded Hussein, looking anxious, said al-Jayousi told him the aim was “carrying out the first suicide attack to be launched by al-Qaida using chemicals” and “striking at Jordan, its Hashemite (royal family) and launching war on the Crusaders and nonbelievers. Officials said they had arrested the suspects in two raids in late March and early April. Last week, officials said four other terror suspects believed linked to the same conspiracy were killed in a shootout with police in Amman. Government officials have said the suspects plotted to detonate a powerful bomb targeting Jordan’s secret service and use poison gas against the prime minister’s office, the U.S. Embassy and other diplomatic missions. Had the bomb exploded, it could have killed at least 20,000 people and wrecked buildings within a half-mile radius, the officials have said. No trial date has been set in the case. Airing suspects’ confessions before their trial is unusual in Jordan. In 1998, six men accused of affiliation with a militant group confessed on television to planting a bomb that exploded outside an Amman hotel. Five years later, a court found them innocent. The unusual move may be an attempt to answer critics who claim the government has exaggerated the terror danger to justify tightening security. Officials in Jordan, a moderate Arab nation with close ties to the United States and a peace treaty with Israel, say the kingdom has been repeatedly targeted by al-Qaida and other militant groups. ********* http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,135670,00.html Sunday, October 17, 2004 AMMAN, Jordan — Jordan's military prosecutor indicted Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, one of the most wanted insurgents in Iraq, and 12 other alleged Muslim militants Sunday for an alleged Al Qaeda linked plot to attack the U.S. Embassy in Amman and Jordanian government targets with chemical and conventional weapons, government officials said. The foiled plot was first revealed by Jordan in April. Lt. Col. Mahmoud Obeidat summoned nine of the 13 terror suspects who are already in custody and read them the charges in the indictment, the officials told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. Four suspects, including al-Zarqawi, are still at large and will be tried in absentia, the officials said. The trial was expected to begin in early to mid November. Al-Zarqawi and his Tawhid and Jihad group are blamed for a string of bombings and other attacks in Iraq and kidnappings and slayings of foreign hostages, including three Americans who were beheaded. Security officials have said the militants were plotting to attack the Jordanian prime minister's office, the secret service agency, the U.S. in Jordan and other sites. Security officials and some of the detainees, in televised confessions, have said the plot was linked to Osama bin Laden's Al Qaeda network. Azmi al-Jayousi, the alleged mastermind of the cell who was captured in April, has confessed to military prosecutors the group was planning a chemical attack, the officials said. The military court is expected to grant a 10-day grace period this week for the four fugitives to surrender — a process which precedes the opening of the trial. In Jordan, charges become formal when read aloud at the opening of the trial. The charges on seven counts include conspiring to commit terror attacks in Jordan, possessing and manufacturing explosive material and affiliation with a banned group, the officials said. The group in question has been identified as Kata'eb al-Tawhid, Arabic for the Battalions of Monotheism, a previously unknown cell said to be linked to Al Qaeda. If convicted on all counts, the defendants could be sentenced to death. Jordan first announced in April it had foiled the terrorist plot blamed on al-Zarqawi. On April 20, four additional suspects were killed in a police shootout and most members of the Jordanian cell were arrested. Jordanian authorities said then the suspects had plotted to use chemicals and explosives to blow up vital institutions, including Jordan's intelligence department — an attack that could have killed thousands. Al-Jayousi, the alleged mastermind, and some other detained suspects had said in televised confessions the plot was hatched and financed by al-Zarqawi. In an audiotape posted on the Internet in May, a man who identified himself as al-Zarqawi acknowledged his group was behind the plot in Jordan but he denied it involved chemical weapons. U.S. officials have offered a $25 million reward for al-Zarqawi's capture. He is suspected in about a dozen high-profile attacks in Iraq, including last year's bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad. Moroccan authorities believe he may have helped guide the Madrid train bombings. His group is believed to be behind the killings and beheadings of foreign hostages in Iraq including three Americans. U.S. and Jordanian authorities say he funded the Oct. 2002 assassination of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan. Jordan, a key Arab ally of the United States and a peace partner to Israel, has been targeted by Al Qaeda and other terrorists. Twenty-two Islamic extremists were convicted of plotting to attack U.S. and Israeli tourists during the kingdom's millennium celebrations. ************ Zarqawi 'chemical bomb plot' trial postponed after lawyers fail to show AMMAN (AFP) Wednesday December 22, 2004 The trial of Iraq's most wanted man, the fugitive Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and 12 other people accused of plotting a chemical attack in Jordan was postponed for the second week in a row after defence lawyers failed to show up. The case was adjourned to December 29 because court-appointed lawyers for four of nine defendants, including alleged ringleader Azmi Jayussi, did not attend the hearing, judicial sources told AFP. The trial opened December 15 but was disrupted and adjourned when Jayussi and his co-defendants refused to address the court in protest at their detention conditions. Eight of the suspects are behind bars, one is out on bail while Zarqawi -- a Jordanian-born Islamist who has a 25-million-dollar US bounty on his head for a string of attacks in Iraq -- and two others are on the run. Prosecutor Mahmud Obeidat levelled seven charges against the group in October, including conspiracy to commit terror attacks in Jordan , making explosives and possession of weapons. The group is specifically accused of plotting, on Zarqawi's orders, an attack on the intelligence agency using trucks loaded with 20 tonnes of chemicals that could have killed 80,000 people and injured 160,000 others. The prosecution said the attack planned for west Amman was part of a larger conspiracy, including hits on the prime minister's office as well as the US embassy in Amman. The charge sheet released in October did not mention these two targets. The defendants are also accused of belonging to an illegal organisation named as Kataeh al-Tawhid (Unification Brigades) and of links to Zarqawi. The 13 men, including three Syrian nationals one of whom is on the run, face the death penalty if convicted. Zarqawi was sentenced to death by the state security court in April for the October 2002 murder of a US diplomat in Amman. He is also charged in another court case that opened earlier this month in which he and another Jordanian suspect are accused of plotting to attack the Jordanian embassy in Iraq and unspecified US targets there. *********** http://www.nti.org/d%5Fnewswire/issues/2005/2/24/26d8fb80%2Da4d1%2D4de8%2Db790%2Da631a4b7a4d3.html From Thursday, February 24, 2005 issue. Jordan Chemical Plot Defendants Request Execution Nine men being tried in Jordan for allegedly plotting a foiled chemical attack asked yesterday to be put to death rather than let the trial continue, Agence France-Presse reported (see GSN, Dec. 15, 2004). “God, and no one else, is our master. We wish to be executed,” the defendants shouted in court, according to AFP. “The verdict is ready, so why put us on trial,” said the suspects, who could be sentenced to death if convicted of planning to attack the Jordanian intelligence agency with 20 tons of chemicals that could have killed up to 80,000 people. The men are suspected of belonging to the outlawed Kataeb al-Tawhid (“Unification Brigades”) group and of having connections to terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, AFP reported. All nine denied the charges after they were read aloud in court, according to AFP (Agence France-Presse/Khaleej Times, Feb. 23). *********** http://www.nti.org/d%5Fnewswire/issues/2005/4/21/b3156726%2D58b2%2D447b%2Dae27%2D7669bf04a708.html From Thursday, April 21, 2005 issue. Suspects in Jordan Chemical Plot Had Instructions for Attack, Witnesses Say at Trial Suspects in a planned chemical weapons attack in Jordan possessed instructions on preparing germ and conventional weapons, witnesses said yesterday at the trial of the alleged plotters (see GSN, Feb. 24). Nine of the 13 suspects are in custody, while Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and three others are being tried in absentia, the Associated Press reported. Targets of the foiled attack have been reported to include the Jordanian intelligence agency and the U.S. Embassy in Amman. Police officers found “a dossier in Arabic containing detailed steps on manufacturing explosives and bacteriological poisons” at a safe house in Amman, said Sgt. Mohammed al-Omari. The house also contained handwritten instructions on military training and poisons. Information on weapons and military tactics were kept on compact discs and computers, AP reported. “There was a file headlined ‘the culture of sabotage,’ which outlined ways to destroy buildings, bridges, railways, and telephone and electricity networks, and how to dismantle security barriers, attack airports, carry out assassination and spread epidemics, like typhoid and malaria,” said Lt. Muthana al-Qatan, an intelligence agency computer technician. He acknowledged that the information might have come straight from the Internet (Jamal Halaby, Associated Press, April 20). *********** http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/2005_5_5.html May 5, 2005 Al-Qaeda Planned Chemical Attack on U.S. Naval Base in Spain, Terror Cell Member Says Angry Outburst Halts Jordan Chemical Attack Trial The trial of 13 people suspected of plotting a chemical attack last year in Jordan was halted yesterday following an angry outburst by the defendants that included a death threat and thrown shoes, the Associated Press reported (see GSN, April 21). Nine suspects are in custody, while Jordanian terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and three others are being tried in absentia for foiled strikes on sites believed to include the U.S. Embassy in Amman and the Jordanian intelligence agency. Lead suspect Azmi al-Jayousi became enraged yesterday during testimony from a forensic doctor on the wounds suffered by four additional plotters killed in a shootout with police in April 2004. Jayousi threw his slippers at lead judge Col. Fawaz Buqour, and then told the three-judge panel “Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi will chop off your heads and stuff it up your mouths, you God’s enemies.” A 10-minute recess did not calm the defendants, AP reported. “The blood of our brothers will not go wasted,” defendant Ahmad Samir yelled as the trial resumed. Samir also told military prosecutor Lt. Col. Mahmoud Obeidat to, “Await death … for you are God’s enemy.” Other defendants yelled or spoke from the Koran. All subsequently turned their back on the judges, kneeled and began to pray, AP reported. Al-Jayousi and two other defendants were removed from the courtroom. That failed to bring order, so Buqour adjourned the trial. It was not immediately known when the case would resume (Jamal Halaby, Associated Press, May 5). ********** http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/6/11/94618.shtml?s=ic With Carl Limbacher and http://NewsMax.com Staff Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:42 a.m. EDT Zarqawi Planned to Top 9/11 Attacks The New York Times reports today that before his death, top al Qaeda terrorist Abu Musab al Zarqawi trained about 300 foreign fighters in Iraq and sent them back to their home countries, where they awaited orders to carry out strikes. But the paper makes no mention of Zarqawi's most ambitious foreign attack plot, which nearly succeeded two years ago: a weapons of mass destruction strike that intelligence officials estimated would have killed 20,000. The death toll planned by Zarqawi would have far exceeded the destruction wrought by Osama bin Laden on Sept. 11. The April 2004 attack, which was all but ignored by the Western press, was foiled at the last minute when Jordanian officials intercepted a convoy of three vehicles near the Syrian border. It's cargo: 23,000 gallons of chemicals, poison gas and explosives. The target: The U.S. embassy in Amman along with the headquarters of Jordan's Intelligence service. The Mideast bureau of the Associated Press reported at the time that Jordanian officials said Zarqawi's crew was planning to use to "a chemical bomb that would have killed as many as 20,000 people and caused large-scale destruction within a half-mile radius." "The terror cell was also apparently planning to carry out simultaneous poison gas attacks against foreign diplomatic missions, including the heavily fortified U.S. Embassy in Amman, vital Jordanian public establishments like the prime minister's office and unspecified civilian targets," the wire service said. Jordan's King Abdullah II confirmed the details of the attack, and publicly thanked his intelligence chief, Gen. Saad Kheir, saying that the arrests of Zarqawi's terrorists had "saved thousands of lives." Had the plot gone forward, Abdullah said, Jordan would have seen "a crime that would have been unprecedented in the country in terms of the size of explosives mounted on the vehicles and the methods of carrying out the attacks or the civilian locations chosen." In confessions later broadcast on ABC's "Nightline," one of the plotters revealed that he began training for the mission in 2001 in Afghanistan. "After the fall of Afghanistan, I met Zarqawi again in Iraq," the al Qaeda operative said. *************** Jaiousi admits meeting with Zarqawi in Baghdad, receiving instructions for attacks Jordan Times 2005 30 June 2005 By Rana Husseini Amman - The main defendant in the case of nine men standing trial for plotting the first chemical attack in the Kingdom, on Wednesday said he met with Abu Mussab Zarqawi in Baghdad to prepare for the alleged attacks. In a videotape confession screened during the trial at the State Security Court (SSC) yesterday, Azmi Jaiousi said he met with Zarqawi and two other men in Iraq. "Zarqawi told me there would be military operations in Jordan soon and we needed to prepare for them... he gave me around $50,000, weapons, explosive devices and instructions to launch attacks. Our first target was State Prosecutor Mahmoud Obeidat," Jaiousi was quoted as saying in the videotape. A second target was a General Intelligence Department (GID) officer who had blue eyes and a white Mercedes, he added. Jaiousi said he infiltrated into the Kingdom from Iraq in February 2002, hidden in a truck, and later met up with the rest of the defendants. Jaiousi also reenacted how he bought chemical substances, electric and electronic equipment and lab devices from shops in the downtown area. The videotape also showed him manufacturing explosives and transporting empty jerry cans into trucks with defendants Husni Sharif and Ahmad Samir. The prosecution is charging that the defendants intended to use these deadly chemical substances in an attack on the GID headquarters. An explosives expert testified recently that if the chemical substances had been mixed with explosives they would have caused burns, suffocation and neurological paralysis. During the screening of the video, the defendants claimed that the prosecution denied them the right of appointing lawyers to be present during the interrogations. Obeidat refuted their claims saying he had informed them of their right for an attorney, but they "turned down his offer." During the two-hour session, Obeidat rested his case opening the way for the defence team to present their evidence. The defence lawyers asked the court for more time to meet with their clients and prepare the defence statements. The tribunal agreed and adjourned the session until next week. The nine men, part of a group of 13 suspects including Zarqawi, are also charged with possessing and manufacturing explosives with illicit intent, and possessing an automatic weapon with the intention of using it illegally. Jaiousi appeared on Jordan Television shortly after his arrest and described how he and other group members had bought and manufactured chemical explosives under the guidance and support of Zarqawi." ********* http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200405030839.asp May 03, 2004, 8:39 a.m. The Syrian Connection Following the evil trails. The central rationale for the invasion of Iraq was not simply the threat posed by the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction — it was the nexus between terrorists, their state sponsors, and WMDs. The anthrax attacks that took place in this country in the fall of 2001 could be an example; they were clearly conducted by terrorists, and involved biological weapons. The perpetrators have not been found. Letters accompanying the attacks stated, "Death to America. Death to Israel. Allah is Great." Nevertheless, investigations have focused on domestic sources since the anthrax was in some cases highly sophisticated and weaponized. The fact that the Kay report mentioned Iraqi anthrax-production capabilities could point in another direction, if the "domestic perp" premise can be overcome. (It is comparable to the premise that the D.C. sniper had to be a disgruntled, white, right-wing Christian — a bad working assumption that ignored the obvious.) The planned al Qaeda attack in Amman that was disrupted by Jordanian security forces is another example of the nexus in action, and a cautionary tale on the complexity of the war on terrorism. This was not the first time al Qaeda has targeted Jordan — their embassy in Iraq was attacked last August and the terrorists have been vocal in their condemnations of the Jordanian government for its cooperation with the United States in the war effort. The plan was to mount suicide attacks on their intelligence headquarters, the prime minister's office, and the U.S. embassy with a truck carrying 20 tons of chemical explosives. The bombing would have raised a chemical cloud for a mile radius and killed an estimated 80,000 people, in a country of 5.4 million. (An attack of that proportion in this country would kill 4.3 million.) The planned al Qaeda attack in Amman that was disrupted by Jordanian security forces is another example of the nexus in action, and a cautionary tale on the complexity of the war on terrorism. This was not the first time al Qaeda has targeted Jordan — their embassy in Iraq was attacked last August and the terrorists have been vocal in their condemnations of the Jordanian government for its cooperation with the United States in the war effort. The plan was to mount suicide attacks on their intelligence headquarters, the prime minister's office, and the U.S. embassy with a truck carrying 20 tons of chemical explosives. The bombing would have raised a chemical cloud for a mile radius and killed an estimated 80,000 people, in a country of 5.4 million. (An attack of that proportion in this country would kill 4.3 million.) Jordanian TV carried an interview with captured members of the attack teams, including the leader of the group, a Jordanian named Azmi al-Jayyusi, a long-time member of al Qaeda. He trained in Osama bin Laden camps in Herat, Afghanistan prior to the fall of the Taliban, under Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who currently is orchestrating al Qaeda attacks against Coalition forces in Iraq. He was given "high level courses in explosives and poisons." After Afghanistan was liberated, Zarqawi ordered al-Jayyusi to Iraq — apparently before Operation Iraqi Freedom. He later infiltrated Jordan with others to plan their attack. Safe houses were procured by a Syrian who worked with Zarqawi. The team began to procure chemicals, they said through companies that used them for other purposes. Al-Jayyusi weaponized the chemicals himself, at small labs in secure warehouses. Money, trucks, forged passports, I.D. cards, and car registrations all came by courier through Syria. So did four of the ten members of the attack teams, three of whom chose to fight to the death with Jordanian security forces. Zarqawi, who claimed credit for having ordered the attack, affirmed the intent to undertake the bombing, but denied that there were chemical weapons involved, saying that the confessions were the result of torture. Another report from Jordan claimed that the chemicals, like the other supplies, came from Syria. It brought to mind the stories that were circulating in the press over a year ago that Iraqi WMDs were being transported in large numbers to Syria. The Iraq-Syrian border is difficult enough to seal now; at the time it was wide open. It would be an interesting development if 20 of the 1,000 tons of chemical weapons that the Blix report found unaccounted for in Iraq turned up in Jordan. The day after the video confessions aired, explosions hit Damascus. A group of four gunmen blew up a parked car in front of the U.N. Disengagement Observer Force building, which had been unused for several years and was then occupied by two homeless families. The men then began shooting randomly and throwing hand grenades, until security forces arrived and killed several of them. Hundreds of demonstrators then materialized, hoisting oversize pictures of Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad and chanting something about solidarity. ************** So what would you have done about al-Zarqawi given that Saddam did nothing?
But I gave you the benefit of the doubt and included all 2 trillion of your claimed costs. Shall we use the expenses as of this point? The same is true of the listed WW2 costs. Gosh ... we've been in a tremendous growth spurt while the Iraq has been going on. Gee ... are you callously suggesting that was worth 300,000 American lives? Then why has the GDP been growing by leaps and bounds of late. And you, of course, believe that putting democRATS in charge with their let's-tax-em philosophy will help economic growth.
Your sources: NewsMax, FoxNews, Townhall, NationalReview = NEOCONS R US. I think we need to include 'BeAChooser' as one of our keywords for the new 4 Category, 'Neocon Nuttery'. ;)
YES!!!!!! Include Mr. Foxx Snooze.....
And Nuttery is waay too cute for the evil the vicious NeoCommies, the idealogical children of Trotsky, have implemented and caused throughout the world.
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush true, robin.
So are denying this plot occurred? That there was a trial in Jordan? That video tape was shown on the mainstream media of terrorists confessions? That they were convicted? If so, christine, you are only proving you and the members of 4um are out of touch with reality. Do a browser search. MSNBC, CNN, CSPAN and numerous other sources reported this plot and its outcome. I included an MSNBC link above. Some of the above are Associated Press articles. Here's a report from USATODAY http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-04-18-jordan-terror_x.htm Here is one from CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/ Here is one from CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/26/world/main613825.shtml Surely you aren't claiming that all these sources reported this and yet NOT ONE source has come out to say they just made it up. Or do you have one you'd like to offer us? (I have to tell you, christine, that I'm working hard to stifle a hearty laugh. But I'm still hoping for *some* civility from your side.)
a. I would have done nothing. If the Israelis wanted Zarqawi dead, let them have killed him. If the Israelis wanted Saddam dead, let them have killed him. The Israelis are no strangers to political assassinations. Why should America invade sovereign nations on Israel's behalf to get 2 people Israelis wanted dead? b. You are breaking your own self-espoused 02/10/07 forum posting rule. And quoting from BOTshillmedia like National Review and Fox News is offensive, not informative. Wake up, boozer, you're not on freaker republic anymore - at 4um we are familiar with the aforementioned neocon Bibles and have rejected them for what they are - lie factories. You want to diseminate that garbage to impress your imaginery net pals, open your own blog and do it there to your heart's content. Don't do it here. Keep in mind that AGAviator and myself could shut you down in a heart beat - if we ignore you, you would have no "dialogue" - so if you could care less about respecting christine and her free speech stage, let me clue you in, your ability to promote your canned proIsraelDCwarmonger claptrap is hanging by a thread. Shape up or your voice will soon be a voice no one sees or hears because your posts will have no replies and ergo they will disappear from net visibility at 4um. >http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=45230&Disp=75 "I'm also not going to engage in long debates, taking apart posts line by line." c. You have not answered my question. Do you American citizen soldiers should fight and die in wars for Israel's benefit? Keep in mind - amongst other things, Israel refuses to sign a mutual defense treaty with America.
Even after he masterminded a plot to kill EVERYONE in the US embassy in Amman? Let me break my newest vow. ROTFLOL! We will see ... Well gosh ... it was just toooooo tempting. I think I answered that question by showing you and Mearsheimer were misleading regarding Zelikow.
http://prisonplanet.tv/articles/june2004/062504falseflag.htm http://www.waronfreedom.org/lowdownonlondon.html Today’s fiction was a "secret" group affiliated - oh how wonderfully convenient - with Al Qaeda and Al Zarqawi. Yet the state-owned BBC itself found that Al Qaeda does not even exist, in its documentary film, The Terror Myth. And just yesterday Dahr Jamail wrote of his trip to the town of Zarqa, on the trail of the fabled Zarqawi. The man's family believe he died years ago, and no recent photos exist. Certain is only that the mythical Zarqawi’s base of operations always pops up wherever the Americans want to attack. Fallujah, Samarra, who do you want to bomb tomorrow?
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush Gee ... wish I wasn't on a self-imposed laugh ban. I read all the letters of American Jews that disputed or attacked Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt's study findings, including Philip Zelikow's. Duh. And why are we not surprised? I got news for you - other Jewish Americans whom one might consider to be unorthodox voices in the Jewish academic community all did their perfunctory letters or articles or statements to dismiss M&W research paper including Dr. Finkelstein and Dr. Chomsky. Btw,you can also read wikipedia's article on Zelikow and what he said at the Foreign Intel Conference and how he later back pedalled. It's not so hidden an event, Inspector Clouseau- BAC. Regardless, where's the incongruity to what I said earlier? I showed that Zelikow was the first and a very high up person in DC political affairs to say that the Iraq War was for Israel's benefit and Mearsheimer and Walt later published a study that confirmed what Zelikow said. If Zelikow tries to recant what he said - uh how does that take away from M&W's research paper? Their text was 40 pages long and their bibliography with a host of various sources was 38 pages long. Zelikow was one of hundreds of sources of information for their paper. Btw, here's the full text of the article I quoted Zelikow's statements, which you did not read obviously. It puts his remarks in very good context. http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=23083 IRAQ: War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser By Emad Mekay WASHINGTON, Mar 29 (IPS) - IPS uncovered the remarks by Philip Zelikow, who is now the executive director of the body set up to investigate the terrorist attacks on the United States in September 2001 -- the 9/11 commission -- in which he suggests a prime motive for the invasion just over one year ago was to eliminate a threat to Israel, a staunch U.S. ally in the Middle East. Zelikow's casting of the attack on Iraq as one launched to protect Israel appears at odds with the public position of President George W. Bush and his administration, which has never overtly drawn the link between its war on the regime of former president Hussein and its concern for Israel's security. The administration has instead insisted it launched the war to liberate the Iraqi people, destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD) and to protect the United States. Zelikow made his statements about ”the unstated threat” during his tenure on a highly knowledgeable and well-connected body known as the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB), which reports directly to the president. He served on the board between 2001 and 2003. ”Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel,” Zelikow told a crowd at the University of Virginia on Sep. 10, 2002, speaking on a panel of foreign policy experts assessing the impact of 9/11 and the future of the war on the al-Qaeda terrorist organisation. ”And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don't care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn't want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell,” said Zelikow. The statements are the first to surface from a source closely linked to the Bush administration acknowledging that the war, which has so far cost the lives of nearly 600 U.S. troops and thousands of Iraqis, was motivated by Washington's desire to defend the Jewish state. The administration, which is surrounded by staunch pro-Israel, neo-conservative hawks, is currently fighting an extensive campaign to ward off accusations that it derailed the ”war on terrorism” it launched after 9/11 by taking a detour to Iraq, which appears to have posed no direct threat to the United States. Israel is Washington's biggest ally in the Middle East, receiving annual direct aid of three to four billion dollars. Even though members of the 16-person PFIAB come from outside government, they enjoy the confidence of the president and have access to all information related to foreign intelligence that they need to play their vital advisory role. Known in intelligence circles as ”Piffy-ab”, the board is supposed to evaluate the nation's intelligence agencies and probe any mistakes they make. The unpaid appointees on the board require a security clearance known as ”code word” that is higher than top secret. The national security adviser to former President George H.W. Bush (1989-93) Brent Scowcroft, currently chairs the board in its work overseeing a number of intelligence bodies, including the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA), the various military intelligence groups and the Pentagon's National Reconnaissance Office. Neither Scowcroft nor Zelikow returned numerous phone calls and email messages from IPS for this story. Zelikow has long-established ties to the Bush administration. Before his appointment to PFIAB in October 2001, he was part of the current president's transition team in January 2001. In that capacity, Zelikow drafted a memo for National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice on reorganising and restructuring the National Security Council (NSC) and prioritising its work. Richard A. Clarke, who was counter-terrorism coordinator for Bush's predecessor President Bill Clinton (1993-2001) also worked for Bush senior, and has recently accused the current administration of not heeding his terrorism warnings, said Zelikow was among those he briefed about the urgent threat from al-Qaeda in December 2000. Rice herself had served in the NSC during the first Bush administration, and subsequently teamed up with Zelikow on a 1995 book about the unification of Germany. Zelikow had ties with another senior Bush administration official -- Robert Zoellick, the current trade representative. The two wrote three books together, including one in 1998 on the United States and the ”Muslim Middle East”. Aside from his position at the 9/11 commission, Zelikow is now also director of the Miller Centre of Public Affairs and White Burkett Miller Professor of History at the University of Virginia. His close ties to the administration prompted accusations of a conflict of interest in 2002 from families of victims of the 9/11 attacks, who protested his appointment to the investigative body. In his university speech, Zelikow, who strongly backed attacking the Iraqi dictator, also explained the threat to Israel by arguing that Baghdad was preparing in 1990-91 to spend huge amounts of ”scarce hard currency” to harness ”communications against electromagnetic pulse”, a side-effect of a nuclear explosion that could sever radio, electronic and electrical communications. That was ”a perfectly absurd expenditure unless you were going to ride out a nuclear exchange -- they (Iraqi officials) were not preparing to ride out a nuclear exchange with us. Those were preparations to ride out a nuclear exchange with the Israelis”, according to Zelikow. He also suggested that the danger of biological weapons falling into the hands of the anti-Israeli Islamic Resistance Movement, known by its Arabic acronym Hamas, would threaten Israel rather than the United States, and that those weapons could have been developed to the point where they could deter Washington from attacking Hamas. ”Play out those scenarios,” he told his audience, ”and I will tell you, people have thought about that, but they are just not talking very much about it”. ”Don't look at the links between Iraq and al-Qaeda, but then ask yourself the question, 'gee, is Iraq tied to Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and the people who are carrying out suicide bombings in Israel'? Easy question to answer; the evidence is abundant.” To date, the possibility of the United States attacking Iraq to protect Israel has been only timidly raised by some intellectuals and writers, with few public acknowledgements from sources close to the administration. Analysts who reviewed Zelikow's statements said they are concrete evidence of one factor in the rationale for going to war, which has been hushed up. ”Those of us speaking about it sort of routinely referred to the protection of Israel as a component,” said Phyllis Bennis of the Washington-based Institute of Policy Studies. ”But this is a very good piece of evidence of that.” Others say the administration should be blamed for not making known to the public its true intentions and real motives for invading Iraq. ”They (the administration) made a decision to invade Iraq, and then started to search for a policy to justify it. It was a decision in search of a policy and because of the odd way they went about it, people are trying to read something into it,” said Nathan Brown, professor of political science at George Washington University and an expert on the Middle East. But he downplayed the Israel link. ”In terms of securing Israel, it doesn't make sense to me because the Israelis are probably more concerned about Iran than they were about Iraq in terms of the long-term strategic threat,” he said. Still, Brown says Zelikow's words carried weight. ”Certainly his position would allow him to speak with a little bit more expertise about the thinking of the Bush administration, but it doesn't strike me that he is any more authoritative than Wolfowitz, or Rice or Powell or anybody else. All of them were sort of fishing about for justification for a decision that has already been made,” Brown said. (END/2004) Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
Setting Iraq aside for the moment, I'm asking you an important question on foreign policy: Do you believe American citizen soldiers should fight and die in wars for Israel's national security benefit? Consider that Israel has consistently refused to sign a mutual defense treaty with America.
Oh really (tilting one's head to the side and speaking in a high squeaky voice)... Perhaps you did not read Drs. Mearsheimer and Walt's reply to Philip Zelikow's back pedalling letter. This one is for you, BeAChooser, a gift from me to you in the sincere hope this may clean out those proIsraelatanycost cobwebs in your BOT brain: The Israel Lobby: Mearsheimer & Walt vs. Phillip Zelikow http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n10/ letters.html#3 London Review of Books, Vol. 28, No. 6, May 25, 2006 From John Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt Philip Zelikow claims he did not say in September 2002 that the present war in Iraq was motivated in good part by concerns about Israel’s security. He suggests that our reference to his remarks came from an unreliable source and says we ‘misused’ his comments. He implies that he was talking mainly about the 1990-91 Gulf War, not the US decision to invade Iraq in March 2003. Furthermore, he maintains that he ‘expressed no view’ on ‘whether or when the US ought to go to war with Iraq’. None of these assertions is correct. Emad Mekay, who wrote the Asia Times Online article we referenced, is a well- regarded journalist who worked for Reuters and the New York Times before moving to Inter Press Service, a legitimate news agency. He did not rely on ‘local reports’ in writing his story, but had access to a complete and unimpeachable record of Zelikow’s talk. He repeatedly tried to contact Zelikow while writing his story, but his inquiries were not returned. Below are excerpts from Zelikow’s remarks about Iraq on 10 September 2002 (we have the full text). It shows that 1. he was focusing on the possibility of war with Iraq in 2002-03, not the 1990- 91 Gulf War; 2. he supported a new war with Iraq; and 3. he believed Iraq was an imminent threat to Israel, but not to the United States. Finally. . . I wanted to offer some comments on Iraq. . . . I beg your patience, but I think there are some points that are worth making that aren’t being made by either side in the current debate. The Iraq situation this administration inherited is and has been unsustainable. Ever since 1996 the Iraqi situation has basically unravelled. . . . So then the real question is, OK, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to end up fixing it? And if you don’t like the administration’s approach, what’s the recommended alternative? Another thing Americans absorb, and this administration especially, is the lesson of Afghanistan. Because remember we knew that international terrorist groups were plotting to kill Americans in a sanctuary called Afghanistan. . . [I]n retrospect, it is perfectly clear that only . . . an [American] invasion could reliably have pre-empted the 9/11 attacks, which relied on people who were being trained in that sanctuary . . . So what lesson does one take from that with respect to Iraq? Well you can see the lesson this administration has taken from that example. And so contemplate what lesson you take. Third. The unstated threat. And here I criticise the [Bush] administration a little, because the argument that they make over and over again is that this is about a threat to the United States. And then everybody says: ‘Show me an imminent threat from Iraq to America. Show me, why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us?’ So I’ll tell you what I think the real threat is, and actually has been since 1990. It’s the threat against Israel. And this is the threat that dare not speak its name, because the Europeans don’t care deeply about that threat, I will tell you frankly. And the American government doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it’s not a popular sell. Now . . . if the danger is a biological weapon handed to Hamas, then what’s the American alternative then? Especially if those weapons have developed to the point where they now can deter us from attacking them, because they really can retaliate against us, by then. Play out those scenarios . . . Don’t look at the ties between Iraq and al-Qaida, but then ask yourself the question: ‘Gee, is Iraq tied to Hamas, and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the people who are carrying out suicide bombings in Israel?’ Easy question to answer, and the evidence is abundant. Yes, there are a lot of other problems in the world . . . My view, by the way, is the more you examine these other problems and try to put together a comprehensive strategy for America and the Middle East, the more I’m driven to the conclusion that it’s better for us to deal with Iraq sooner rather than later. Because those other problems don’t get easier . . . And the Iraq problem is a peculiar combination at the moment, of being exceptionally dangerous at a time when Iraq is exceptionally weak militarily. Now that’s an appealing combination for immediate action . . . But . . . if we wait two years, and then there’s another major terrorist attack against the United States, does it then become easier to act against Iraq, even though the terrorist attack didn’t come from Iraq? No. . . . [A]t this moment, because of the time we bought in the war against terror, it actually makes it easier to go about Iraq now, than waiting a year or two until the war against terror gets harder again. In sum, it is Zelikow, not us, who is attempting to rewrite history. He was admirably candid in 2002, but not in 2006. John Mearsheimer & Stephen Walt
Maybe because Cheney is the keynote speaker? AP: Cheney Challenges 'Anti-War' Lawmakers.
Katrina was America's Chernobyl.
That's 10 percent of the biggest economy the world has ever known. During the period of WW2 we were in a severe depression, even 130% of GDP then was less than the 10 percent of today. That 10 percent has done nothing to secure America's future, rather it has created new enemies and more importantly has hurt America's image around the world. At one time it didn't really matter too much what foreigners thought about America, but not today. Today America's economy is heavily dependent on continued foreign investment.
God is always good! Why is Emad Mekay well regarded? What sort of corroboration did he get for his story? Is anyone else at the meeting quoted saying that's what he claims Zelikow said? I noticed in a little search that he and Asia Times have been unwilling to give his source for the supposed transcript he has. Hmmmmmm ... just curious. Why would this unnamed source decide to leak such an explosive story to a relatively unknown journalist working for a relatively unknown news outlet? And most of his articles concern financial matters so again, why him?
It's not the total amount that matters. The WW2 expenditures represented extreme hardship and sacrifice for most Americans alive then. Most got ripped from their current jobs and put to work doing something else. Iraq's costs haven't stopped most Americans today from living the good life without a care in the world. We are still spending fortunes on cosmetics and movies and ... And no one is being told to shut down production of this and produce that. Nothing is being rationed. But if the media had reported WW2 like they've reported the Iraq war, would Americans have been as will to make those sacrifices and send over 300,000 of their own to die above/on foreign soil or in/under oceans?
BeAChooser, let your fingers do the tapping on your keyboard and ask those very questions of the men who referenced Emad Mekay's article and who praised him. Here are the email address(es) you should use: a. John J. Mearsheimer University of Chicago - Department of Political Science j-mearsheimer@uchicago.edu b. Stephen M. Walt Harvard University - John F. Kennedy School of Government stephen_walt@harvard.edu Postscript: To enhance author privacy, SSRN uses software to prevent mechanical harvesting of email addresses. Anonymous users are allowed 3 email address requests each day.
The issue is whether Zarqawi was in collusion with Saddam. The fact is, that Saddam tried to arrest Qarqawi, and the CIA has stated so much, and a bipartisan panel has confirmed the CIA's assessment. So stop dancing around that issue. Last but not least, if it can be proven, and I am not saying it can, that Zarqawi was in collusion with Ansar-I-Islam, you need to know 2 things (1) Ansar Islam was in the protected Kurdish area, and Saddam could not bring any military force to bear there, and (2) It is quite likely the Kurds had their own agenda in spinning the story of Big Bad Zarqawi. All that spam comes from the same tainted source - a criminal justice system in Jordan where torture is routinely practiced and people will confess to anything the torturers want them to confess to. Now tell me which of those stories had any terrorists saying they met with Saddam and Zarqawi and received instructions from the two of them to carry out this alleged plot. You can't.
Irrelevant. You took this year's GDP and multiplied it by 3, Bubba. Then you accused me of your own "parsing." The government was simpler back then, and the costs had fewer places to get spread around. No we haven't. GM is just about finished making cars in the US, just as one example. Most of the technology jobs are being exported to Asia or India. The war wasn't worth 300,000 American lives. But that's another off-topic remark. The Jews in Roosevelt's administration were pushing for America to get involved in that war, even though Stalin was a far bigger mass murderer than Hitler and Tojo put together. However after the war, most of Europe and a good part of Asia was in ruins. American industry was completely untouched by the war, and had enormous productive capacity that had been used during the war to make war materials and equipment. That productive capacity was then used to promote economic growth in the parts of the world where the war had destroyed just about everything. That economic growth from the productive capacity allowed America to pay back the costs of the war in relatively short order. We're not going to pull another rabbit out of the hat like that one this time. It hasn't. And as I've already told you, GDP's main components include (1) Services, (2) Consumer spending, (3) Government spending, and (4) Are measured in inflated dollars. So take your GDP sophistry and put it where the sun doesn't shine. They should definitely tax the corporate parasites who are exporting jobs and capital overseas. You have any problem with that?
BAC is doing his usual tap-dancing around the real issue and hoping his loads of neocon spam will obscure that fact. Saddam tried to arrest Zarqawi and there are photos of the arrest warrant floating around on the web. Probably on http://antiwar.com. Now it is possible that Zarqawi tried to hook up with some terrorists, however those Ansar-i-Islam terrorists would have been in the Kurdish "No Fly Zone" where they were protected from Saddam by the United States Air Force. As I've posted, the trials in Jordan come from a criminal justice system where torture is routine. In fact, the US "renditions" people to Jordan with the expectation that the Jordanians will torture them profusely. There are very good reasons why legitimate legal systems abhor the use of torture to interrogate people, and getting false information from people being tortured is at the very top of those reasons. Last but not least, the issue is whether Saddam and Zarqawi were in collusion. The CIA and a bipartisan panel have concluded they were not, and any and all allegations they were, are false. So just because Zarqawi may have had any acquaintances in Iraq is totally beside the point. Saddam wanted to arrest Zarqawi. It's as silly as saying that Zarqawi has allies in Iraq today, so the Americans are in collusion with Zarqawi.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThousands and thousands of islamo-fanatics have gone to Iraq ... and died there.
If they weren't attacking us there, they'd likely be causing trouble elsewhere.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#77. To: BeAChooser, RickyJ (#73)
WW2 cost 130 percent of GDP. Even at AGAviator's two trillion, the Iraq war would only be a 5 to 10 percent of current GDP.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#78. To: BeAChooser (#75)
Did you read the thread in question, Diana? The answer lies within...
#79. To: BeAChooser (#71)
And if the American media reported those deaths, those expenses, and the costly progress of the war the same as they've reported Iraq, do you honestly think American morale would have been as high as it was?
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#80. To: scrapper2, AGAviator, ALL (#74)
why SHOULD we sustain 9 KIA American citizens for a war
Your Zarqawi tale ( even if it were true)
did not give us authority to invade Iraq, which was no threat to our nation.
We invaded Iraq for Israel
the defense industry and oil industry were served as secondary interests
#81. To: AGAviator, ALL (#77)
"WW2 cost 130 percent of GDP. Even at AGAviator's two trillion, the Iraq war would only be 5 to 10 percent of current GDP."
False.
#82. To: Diana, SmokinOPs, scrapper2, ALL (#78)
And when Scrapper2 said something about being taken away in a boxcar, and you said you would care, did you mean you'd care as in you'd be against it,
#83. To: AGAviator, ALL (#79)
The fact is, within 6 months the US was on its way to winning because they had some political and military leadership who knew how to lead.
#84. To: BeAChooser (#82)
First of all, it wasn't scrapper who said that and second, yes, I'd be against it.
#85. To: BeAChooser (#81)
2 trillion divided by 10 trillion per year for 3 years
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#86. To: BeAChooser (#83)
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#87. To: BeAChooser, All (#80)
(Edited)
Again, your opinion. Opinions are a dime a dozen. So are "advisors".
#88. To: AGAviator (#76)
They have every right to attack us there.
#89. To: scrapper2, Burkeman1, BeAChooser, christine (#74)
BEFORE we invaded Iraq, al-Zarqawi, operating out of Iraq, was plotting attacks against US allies and Americans.
Report finds no Saddam, Zarqawi ties
But of course, let's not allow the America-hating media to publish these facts, or the America-hating CIA to investgate them, or a bipartisan America-hating Congressional panel to come to this conclusion.
By Rowan Scarborough and Charles Hurt
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
September 9, 2006
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#90. To: Scrapper2, Burkeman1, BeAChooser (#71)
(Edited)
KANSAS CITY, Missouri
Never mind that someone - unlike Looser - joined the Army, and took a bullet which paralyzed him in a country which never attacked us and posed no threat to us.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#91. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, ALL (#85)
Only this year's GDP is "current."
#92. To: AGAviator, ALL (#86)
In fact, the Democrats were the party in power.
#93. To: BeAChooser (#91)
I don't want to be a martyr, I want to win! - Me
#94. To: BeAChooser (#91)
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#95. To: scrapper2, AGAviator, ALL (#87)
do I detect seething white hot anger in the ever so polite and civil
don't try to claim he is a KKK white supremacist or an anti-semite ( favorite character assassination techniques)
Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical . . . The war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. ‘The American government,’ he added, ‘doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.’
Washington DC c. Also, the highly esteemed Professors Mearsheimer and Walt, from U of Chicago and Harvard, just published a research study in March 2006 that confirmed what Zelikow said - the Iraq invasion was mainly for Israel's benefit.
#96. To: AGAviator, scrapper2, Burkeman1, christine, ALL (#89)
BEFORE we invaded Iraq, al-Zarqawi, operating out of Iraq, was plotting attacks against US allies and Americans.
One of BAC's many lies lifted from the Weekly Standard which he repeats endlessly.
#97. To: AGAviator, ALL (#94)
You took this year's GDP and multiplied it by 3, Bubba.
What's more, military spending does not tell the whole picture of military- related expenses included in other departmental budgets.
after WW II the US economy went on a tremendous growth spurt
because America had some undeveloped resources, and also plenty of manufacturing and contstruction jobs.
No such possibility exists today, because nearly all the manufacturing jobs
due to the greed and incompetence of both the corporate managers and the Republibot politicians they've bought.
#98. To: BeAChooser (#96)
#99. To: christine (#98)
'BeAChooser' as one of our keywords for the new 4 Category, 'Neocon Nuttery'. ;)
#100. To: christine (#98)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#101. To: robin (#100)
#102. To: christine, ALL (#98)
Your sources: NewsMax, FoxNews, Townhall, NationalReview = NEOCONS R US. I think we need to include 'BeAChooser' as one of our keywords for the new 4 Category, 'Neocon Nuttery'. ;)
#103. To: BeAChooser (#96)
So what would you have done about al-Zarqawi given that Saddam did nothing?
#104. To: scrapper2, ALL (#103)
So what would you have done about al-Zarqawi given that Saddam did nothing?
I would have done nothing.
You are breaking your own self-espoused 02/10/07 forum posting rule. And quoting from BOTshillmedia like National Review and Fox News is offensive, not informative.
Shape up or your voice will soon be a voice no one sees or hears because your posts will have no replies and ergo they will disappear from net visibility at 4um.
"I'm also not going to engage in long debates, taking apart posts line by line."
You have not answered my question. Do you American citizen soldiers should fight and die in wars for Israel's benefit?
#105. To: scrapper2 (#103)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#106. To: BeAChooser (#95)
I'm surprised you hadn't seen this letter, scrapper. It was linked in the very first hit I encountered when I used my web browser with the search phrase "Philip Zelikow".
#107. To: BeAChooser (#104)
You have not answered my question. Do you American citizen soldiers should fight and die in wars for Israel's benefit?
#108. To: BeAChooser, All (#104)
I think I answered that question by showing you and Mearsheimer were misleading regarding Zelikow.
#109. To: scrapper2 (#107)
March 12, 2007 -- The America Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) annual meeting today and tomorrow in Washington has been designated a "national security event" by the Department of Homeland Security.
#110. To: BeAChooser (#91)
Parse all you want (it's so Clintonesque). 2 trillion dollars over the period of the war so far is less than 10 percent of total GDP during that time.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#111. To: scrapper2, ALL (#106)
Philip Zelikow claims he did not say in September 2002 that the present war in Iraq was motivated in good part by concerns about Israel’s security. He suggests that our reference to his remarks came from an unreliable source and says we ‘misused’ his comments. He implies that he was talking mainly about the 1990-91 Gulf War, not the US decision to invade Iraq in March 2003. Furthermore, he maintains that he ‘expressed no view’ on ‘whether or when the US ought to go to war with Iraq’. None of these assertions is correct.
Emad Mekay, who wrote the Asia Times Online article we referenced, is a well- regarded journalist who worked for Reuters and the New York Times before moving to Inter Press Service, a legitimate news agency. He did not rely on ‘local reports’ in writing his story, but had access to a complete and unimpeachable record of Zelikow’s talk. He repeatedly tried to contact Zelikow while writing his story, but his inquiries were not returned.
#112. To: RickyJ, ALL (#110)
That's 10 percent of the biggest economy the world has ever known. During the period of WW2 we were in a severe depression, even 130% of GDP then was less than the 10 percent of today.
#113. To: BeAChooser, All (#111)
Why is Emad Mekay well regarded? What sort of corroboration did he get for his story? Is anyone else at the meeting quoted saying that's what he claims Zelikow said? I noticed in a little search that he and Asia Times have been unwilling to give his source for the supposed transcript he has. Hmmmmmm ... just curious. Why would this unnamed source decide to leak such an explosive story to a relatively unknown journalist working for a relatively unknown news outlet? And most of his articles concern financial matters so again, why him?
#114. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2 (#96)
Are you trying to deny that before we invaded, al-Zarqawi, operating out of Iraq, plotted attacks against US allies and Americans?
Because I can provide a dozen articles from numerous sources indicating that the terrorists convicted of a plot in Jordan that was supposed to kill tens of thousands
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#115. To: BeAChooser (#97)
(Edited)
You took this year's GDP and multiplied it by 3, Bubba.
But I gave you the benefit of the doubt
What's more, military spending does not tell the whole picture of military- related expenses included in other departmental budgets.
The same is true of the listed WW2 costs.
after WW II the US economy went on a tremendous growth spurt
Gosh ... we've been in a tremendous growth spurt while the Iraq has been going on.
Because America had some undeveloped resources, and also plenty of manufacturing and contstruction jobs.
Gee ... are you callously suggesting that was worth 300,000 American lives?
No such possibility exists today, because nearly all the manufacturing jobs
Then why has the GDP been growing by leaps and bounds of late.
The greed and incompetence of both the corporate managers and the Republibot politicians they've bought.
And you, of course, believe that putting democRATS in charge with their let's- tax-em philosophy will help economic growth.
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
#116. To: christine (#98)
(Edited)
Your sources: NewsMax, FoxNews, Townhall, NationalReview = NEOCONS R US. I think we need to include 'BeAChooser' as one of our keywords for the new 4 Category, 'Neocon Nuttery'. ;)
Just because [Christine] exercises this type of tolerance for the absurd (ie. you)...doesn't mean she has to smell your droppings up close. - Scrapper2 to BeALooser
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