See other War, War, War Articles
Title: U.S. Reports Five Soldiers Killed In Iraq
Source:
United Press International
URL Source: http://www.postchronicle.com/news/b ... ingnews/article_21268681.shtml
Published: Mar 12, 2007
Author: UPI
Post Date: 2007-03-12 13:26:55 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 1450
Comments: 96
Mar 12, 2007 The U.S. military said Monday five of its soldiers were killed and two others were injured in separate incidents in Iraq on Sunday. Three of the deaths were not combat-related, Kuwait's KUNA news agency reported. In Baghdad, gunmen opened fire on the motorcade of Iraq's minister of agriculture, killing one of his bodyguards and injuring another, CNN reported. Security officials said 21 bodies had been found scattered around the city on Sunday, most of which showed signs of torture. Sectarian fighting between Shiite and Sunni Muslims has plagued the Iraqi government's attempts at reconstruction for more than 14 months. About 60 miles from Baghdad in Muqdadiya, a New York Times correspondent said sectarian fighting turned to arson during the weekend. As many as 100 homes and other buildings were torched, the report said. Victims from both sects blamed Sunni extremists who have taken over several towns in the area and are demanding protection money, the report said. (c) UPI
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-8) not displayed.
.
.
.
#9. To: robin (#8)
Has he really tried to defend this? I'm sure I've seen him deny their use, which amounts to a sort of defense. Give me a little poetic license.
okay, that is almost as bad.
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush ... when its use will save the life of our soldiers.
I think you are mis-remembering. Although I have disputed their use at the WTC and the Pentagon. And that DU is responsible for most of the illness in Iraq and amongst our soldiers.
How sad that robin is being led to incorrect conclusions and will remain misinformed thanks to having bozo'd herself rather than read my posts. (snicker)
GW is that you? :P
That means you accept it's use on our soldiers if it's use will save the lives of the enemy. Or else you fall into the absurd position of "I can hit you but you can't hit me".
I assure you, Tom, that our enemies will use it on our soldiers if they believe it advantageous and have the ability. But unlike us, they won't have ANY concern about collateral damage.
leveller - BAC was busy defending the use of white phosphorus and DU Has he really tried to defend this? ... when its use will save the life of our soldiers. It was worse than I had remembered!
You are soooo supportive of America's soldiers.
It was worse than I had remembered! DU is killing our soldiers. White phosphorus has underlined our new reputation as war criminals, so Israel isn't the only war criminals anymore.
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush Amen.
robin: DU is killing our soldiers. White phosphorus has underlined our new reputation as war criminals, so Israel isn't the only war criminals anymore. Well, robin, that's the point isn't it - we're all Israelis now. An international pariah loves company...otherwise it's rather lonely.
The best way to support "our" soldiers is to bring them home, before they get killed or commit more war crimes. Parenthetically, to "support" our mercenaries is not a categorical imperative. They chose to sign up at a time when the US military was busy criminally invading other nations on the flimsiest of false pretexts. They chose to "serve" at a time when the US military functions as a gangster mercenary force imposing the will of a corrupt government in Washington. They are not fighting for my freedom. The only "freedom" for which they fight is the "freedom" of the unaccaountable MIC to violently dominate the rest of the world. Why do they deserve my support?
Your proof for this? Because health physicists ... who are the experts in such matters ... say it isn't. In fact, I couldn't find one who says it does.
I'm so glad our *snorkle* fearless lyin leader has all under control.....when do we expect 'SURGE 2'? They could sure save a lot of time and money, not to mention scandals at army medical centers if they'd just dump the wounded off the litters and tell them to get up and get their gear and 'move on out'. Lots of airplane fuel saved, lots of medical hours saved.....I bet we could even send some walkers and crutches over there to save a little more turn around time. Hell, toss in a couple of sofas, a pool table or two, and they don't even need to leave the desert for a little R&R....set up Club Oasis.
But unlike us, they won't have ANY concern about collateral damage. People defending their homes and families tend to do that. When an Afghan blows up a Soviet tank with a US made landmine they are freedom fighters. When an Afghan blows up a US tank with a IED he's a "terrorist." Let me guess, in "Red Dawn" you rooted for the Russian Troops.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.
Oh, those on the War Crime missions - those soldiers? Considering the Geneva Conventions, is it okay for our soldiers to be attacked with these same weapons - including cluster-bombs? Well ......?
Give this a listen: Father grieves the death of his soldier-son from toxic DU poisoning
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Give this a read: *************** THe collective wisdom of the Health Physics Society: http://hps.org/documents/dufactsheet.pdf Are there any health effects associated with exposure to DU? DU behavior in the body is identical to that of natural uranium. Uranium and DU are considered internal hazards. Therefore, inhalation and/or ingestion of these materials should be minimized. In general, natural U and DU are considered chemical health hazards, rather than radiation hazards. The exception is the case where DU is inhaled in the form of tiny insoluble particles, which lodge in the lungs and remain there for very long times. DU is less of a radiation hazard than natural U because it is less radioactive than natural U. Direct (external) radiation from DU is very low and only of concern to workers who melt and cast U metal. DU used in commercial civilian applications does not present a significant health hazard because it is usually in solid form and not available for inhalation or ingestion. Military operations with DU, however, may contaminate soil, groundwater, and breathing air. When used as a weapon, small particles of DU may be produced. These particles have high density and most fall to the ground very close to where they are produced. Studies have been made of workers and other persons who have ingested or inhaled uranium. There is no known association between low-level DU exposure and adverse health effects, including birth defects. In large quantities, DU exposure can cause skin or lung irritation, but only soldiers in the immediate vicinity of an attack that involves DU are potentially exposed to these levels of contamination. People who live or work in areas affected by DU activities may inhale or consume contaminated air, food, or water. Soldiers with wounds containing fragments of DU shrapnel may develop effects at the wound sites. However, the risks to these sites decrease quickly once the DU is removed. Persons exposed to very large inhalation doses of uranium have shown minor, transitory kidney effects, which typically disappear within days to a few weeks after exposure. Persons inhaling insoluble particulates that lodge in the lung may be at elevated risk of developing lung cancer many years later, particularly if they are smokers. But lung cancer has yet to be demonstrated in uranium workers or others exposed acutely or chronically to uranium. A group of Gulf War veterans who have small DU fragments still in their bodies continue to be followed by government scientists to determine whether there will be long-term health effects. As of early 2005, only subtle but clinically insignificant changes in measures of kidney function have been observed. One common observation is a persistent elevation in the amount of uranium measured in the urine more than 10 years after exposure. This reflects the continued presence of DU in wound sites and its ongoing low-level mobilization and absorption to blood. In summary, some minor health problems have been observed following exposure to DU, but ONLY with high levels of exposure. Exposures to airborne DU or to contaminated soil following military use are not known to cause any observable health or reproductive effects. *************
DU links http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248 Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush What kind of wierd government front is HPS? They appear to be oblivious to radiation dangers generally. For example, their advice to pregnant mothers is to nuke their developing babies with x-rays. Nothing to worry about, according to HPS: I am not pregnant now, but will an x ray or radionuclide medical test cause my child to have birth defects in the future? There is no evidence that your child will be at a greater risk for birth defects from x rays or radionuclide medical tests. This conclusion is based on extensive studies of women exposed at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and women given x rays, radionuclide medical tests, and other radiation procedures. Unreal.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Do you even know what a health physicist is, Arator? Here's a challenge. Try to find one that agrees with you and robin. Your efforts will be like trying to find a structural engineer or a demolition expert who agrees with the notion that explosives/DU/missiles/energybeams/nukes brought down the WTC towers.
**************** http://www.hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1101.html Q: What is your opinion, as a professional health physicist, about the use of depleted uranium (DU) ammunition in war operations? A: Human health risks from exposure to DU can be broadly categorized in terms of radiological or chemical toxicity. Because of DU's low radioactivity or specific activity, a very high exposure is required to increase the radiological risk. For example, an acute inhalation of gram quantities of respirable DU aerosol would be needed. This would only be possible for soldiers present in armored vehicles struck by DU penetrators. Exposure of the general public to environmentally dispersed DU may pose a risk of chemical toxicity depending on the level of exposure, primarily from ingestion. At a recent experts' workshop on DU in the Balkans (Bad Honnef Germany; see the Health Physics Society's Newsletter, September 2001 for details), United Nations scientists studying the environmental behavior of DU showed that DU dissolving from penetrators embedded in soil did not migrate more than 20 cm from the source and that a very small fraction of the DU had dissolved. They did not find any DU contamination in milk, well water, houses, or vehicles in areas where DU munitions were used, nor was any DU measured in urine samples taken from soldiers who were deployed in regions where DU was used. Because evidence indicates that human exposures to DU will be very small, and that these levels will be small fractions of the public's routine exposure to natural uranium, predicted health effects appear to be inconceivable. Raymond A. Guilmette, PhD ****************
How about this document from our health conscious Canadian friends? ************ http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/information/med_vaccs/engraph/DU_Backgrounder_e.asp "... snip ... A souvenir hunter who picked up a piece of depleted uranium penetrator rod (the core of large DU munitions) and carried it in his pocket for a few days would receive a relatively high dose of short-range beta radiation to the skin adjacent to the souvenir. But it would not be enough to cause a burn - much less a significantly elevated risk of skin cancer" "In the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists the authors tried to estimate the possible external gamma-radiation levels on the battlefield by assuming that 100 tons of depleted uranium had been distributed uniformly over a one-kilometer-wide strip along 100 kilometers of the "Highway of Death" between Kuwait City and Basra, a city in southern Iraq. The average dose for someone who lived in the area for a year would be about one mrem - or about 10 percent of the dose from uranium and its decay products already naturally occurring in the soil. The dose rate immediately around a destroyed vehicle could be about 30 times higher. But even that figure would only add about 10 percent to the natural background radiation." "The authors of the article in the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists also note "For perspective, the driver of a tank equipped with DU munitions would get dose rates of up to 5 times natural background, corresponding to a doubling of the background dose if the driver spent 40 hours per week in the tank all year." Depending upon the nature of the impact, a significant fraction of a DU penetrator can burn, oxidizing into an inhalable aerosol. If we assume that 20 percent of the depleted uranium burns, a reasonable estimate based on army tests, the impact of a heavy DU penetrator might generate a kilogram of uranium oxide aerosol For soldiers outside struck vehicles, the aerosol inhaled in the minutes immediately after a vehicle struck by DU munitions would be greatly reduced by the fact that the kinetic energy was turned into heat by the impact. For a heavy penetrator, the released energy would be equivalent to the explosion of up to a kilogram of TNT, lifting the DU aerosol upward on a column of hot air. Because of this vertical dilution, the amount of depleted uranium inhaled by a person nearby would probably not exceed 0.1 milligrams. The dose to a person a mile away directly downwind would be about ten times less. The main cancer risk from inhaled depleted uranium would be from tiny insoluble particles lodged deep in the lungs. According to the inhalation-retention model constructed by the International Commission on Radiation Protection (ICRP), 15 percent of an insoluble inhaled uranium oxide aerosol could be retained in the lungs for more than a year. However, because of the low radioactivity of depleted uranium, the radiation dose would be quite low. For someone close to the battle who inhaled one milligram of depleted uranium - an unlikely scenario - the equivalent whole-body dose would be up to 0.1 rem. That is roughly half the annual dose from inhaled radon and its decay products in a typical single family home in the United States. The estimated added risk of cancer death for such a dose would be about one in 20,000. (To put things in perspective, we in the United States have a one-in five risk of dying of cancer)." Depleted uranium ammunition is shielded, which further reduces its radiological hazard. The Defence Radiological Protection Service in the UK has stated "The external radiation hazard would arise from personnel being in close proximity to DU and is concerned mainly with beta, gamma and x-ray radiation. The alpha radiation poses no external hazard to intact skin. AWE and DRPS have conducted measurements of external radiation levels inside tanks to establish the external radiation exposure. These demonstrate that personnel would need to be in a fully DU loaded tank for 1500 hours before they would reach the annual whole body dose limit (50 mSv). There is no significant external hazard to personnel working with and exposed to DU ammunition in armament depots or stores. Over 5000 hours of exposure to DU would be required before the current dose limit for exposure of the whole body (50 mSv) would be exceeded. The main external radiation hazard from DU is from contact with bare skin. The current dose limit to the skin will only be exceeded if the skin remains in contact continuously with DU for more than 250 hours per year. Naomi H. Harley is an authority on radiation physics. She earned her Ph.D. in radiological physics at the New York University where she is currently a research professor at the University's School of Medicine, Department of Environmental Medicine. She has authored or co-authored more than 100 peer-reviewed journal articles on radiation exposure, with emphasis on natural background radiation. She has written six chapters in books dealing with radiation or toxicology and holds three patents for radiation measurement devices. She is a council member on the National Council on Radiation Protection and Measurements, an advisor to the United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation, and an editor of the journal Environment International. In commenting on reports of some doctors finding traces of depleted uranium in the urines of service members years after any possible exposure, Dr. Harley notes this would only be possible if the military members had depleted uranium fragments embedded in their bodies. She comments on the issue of some veterans being convinced that fragments could be inhaled particles lodged in their lungs by stating "It's hard to imagine that anybody could have inhaled enough material so that it could still be there eight or nine years later, enough so that you could see the amount being dissolved and then getting into the urine." Harley says she's heard people project that the use of depleted uranium will cause tens of thousands of new cancers in Gulf War veterans and Iraqi citizens, but says such projections frighten veterans unnecessarily because there is no scientific support for such claims. "There is no way you can get enough uranium into the body to cause even one cancer. You can't inhale it, you can't ingest it. You would choke to death before you could inhale that much material." *******************
Do you think we should start putting DU in our drinking water and in our toothpaste, boozer? It sounds like a tonic of sorts. Do you wash with DU water in Tel Aviv everyday?
The DU tends to travel around and will affect a lot of people in the end.
BAC is saying now that DU is harmless so I guess we don't have to worry about DU anymore.
Army Major Doug Rokke has been shot at, run off the road, threatened, harassed, black- balled, intimidated, called a liar and treated like a “hated enemy” not by opposition forces in Iraq, but by ‘secret ops’ in the U.S. government, obviously acting on orders from top military brass. And in May 2000 he was subjected to the biggest scare of his life when bullets rang through his son’s bedroom window while living in Jacksonville, Alabama, in what he calls “another near miss” by government hit men bound and determined to remove his presence from the planet. Maj. Rokke, living in Rantoul, Illinois, and still active in the Army Reserves, has been a government target ever since going public in a May 1997 article in the Nation Magazine, criticizing the military for failing to clean-up depleted uranium used in Iraq during the first Gulf War. Although Maj. Rokke’s accusations have been echoed by many others what makes his statements so electrifying – so damaging to the military - is that he was one of the Pentagon’s ‘top boys.’ In fact, he was not only one of the Pentagon’s elite, he was “the man” so to speak when it came to determining the causes and effects of depleted uranium (DU) used in the battle field. Being so well-respected by the Pentagon brass, Maj. Rokke was the military expert assigned as director of the 1994 U.S. Army Depleted Uranium Project in response to congressional inquiries and direct Department of Defense (DOD) orders. The study was commissioned after it was found the military lacked adequate preparation to deal with the adverse health and environmental effects regarding the use of DU in the battle field. This highly efficient ‘killing tool,’ which amounts to nothing less than a radioactive nuclear assault, has been extensively used in U.S. weaponry in the first Gulf War as well as the present Iraqi conflict, even though it is a direct violation of the Geneva Convention and United Nation regulations. In simple terms, Maj. Rokke was asked to evaluate the extent of DU used and asked to advise the military how to adequately comply with its own existing regulations of training, clean-up and medical care involving soldiers and civilians contaminated. In his final report, Maj. Rokke, however, didn’t beat around the bush or provide a technical escape for evading regulations. He simply laid it on the table plain and simple, saying if the military intended to keep using DU, it needed to address the above problems, as regulations mandated, or simply cease and desist from its use. And. in hindsight, it was probably the words “cease and desist” or Maj. Rokke’s simple ultimatum of “clean-up or don’t use” that initially ticked-off military brass, since behind the scenes the ‘big boys” never really intended to open up a can of worms caused by Maj. Rokke’s report. But when the implacable army officer went public about the extent of the DU problems in 1997, letting the cat out of the bag about the military’s outright refusal to comply with existing regulations, the ‘big boys’ put their boxing gloves on and are still trying to punch Maj. Rokke into submission today. “They have been after me ever since I went public,” said Maj. Rokke in a telephone conversation this week from his country home in the heartland of Illinois. “I’ve been shot at, run off the road several times, harassed, threatened and whatever else they could think of doing to discredit me for what I was doing. “They even shot bullets through my son’s bedroom window. These guys don’t play around and the first thing I was told when I went public was to keep my 45 loaded at all times.” Even though Maj. Rokke’s obviously right and the military wrong, the cold and hard truth is that the big brass tried to crucify him for simply telling the truth. The cold hard truth is that even though the military admits using DU, it never has admitted to the legal causal connection between its use and its adverse effects on human and environmental health. And critics contend that such outright contempt for its own regulations and the military’s failure to provide adequate medical care for those exposed to DU has left hundreds of thousands of military personnel and civilians sick or dying, including Maj. Rokke. “It’s really very simple,” added Maj. Rokke. “I was asked to report on what they needed to do about the DU problem. Our team of experts then reported and provided our recommendations, plain and simple. “But when I realized in 1997 we were being ignored and thousands of people, including myself, were sick and possibly slowly dying from DU exposure, I had to go public and blow the whistle.” And Maj. Rokke said his warnings as well as warnings from many other experts were not only dismissed by the military, but also by every other bigwig on Capital Hill, including President Clinton, Senator John Kerry and every other member of Congress, all very much aware of his position since he even addressed the 2000 Fall Congressional Coalition Leadership at its quarterly breakfast in Washington D.C. Adding that the DU problem is even worse today, Maj. Rokke pointed out the military continues to bombard the Iraq and Afghanistan with “increased levels’ of nuclear weaponry, leaving in its wake even higher levels of nuclear fallout then were present in Gulf War I. And like President Clinton, his predecessor, President Bush has failed to address or even recognize the problem, leaving behind ‘hot zones’ in the Middle East while, at the same time, failing to care for radiation illnesses in returning troops. “President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair must acknowledge and must accept responsibility for the willful use of illegal uranium munitions, their own ‘dirty bombs,’ resulting in adverse health and environmental effects,” wrote Maj. Rokke in recent open letter, criticizing the two major leaders of the Iraq occupation. And being crystal clear about his demands in compliance with existing military regulations, he added: “President Bush and Prime Minister Blair need to immediately order medical care for all DU casualties, order thorough environmental remediation, issue immediate orders for the cessation and retaliation against all of us who demand compliance with medical care and ban the further use of depleted radiation munitions. “They arrogantly refuse to comply with their own regulations, orders, and directives that require United States Department of Defense officials to provide prompt and effective medical care "all" exposed individuals [Medical Management of Unusual Depleted Uranium Casualties, DOD, Pentagon, 10/14/93, Medical Management of Army personnel Exposed to Depleted Uranium (DU) Headquarters. “U.S. Army Medical Command 29 April 2004), and section 2-5 of AR 70-48. They also refuse to clean up dispersed radioactive contamination as required by Army Regulation- AR 700-48: "Management of Equipment Contaminated With Depleted Uranium or Radioactive Commodities" (Headquarters, Department Of The Army, Washington, D.C., September 2002) and U.S. Army Technical Bulletin- TB 9-1300-278: "Guidelines For Safe Response To Handling, Storage, And Transportation Accidents Involving Army Tank Munitions Or Armor Which Contain Depleted Uranium" (Headquarters, Department Of The Army, Washington, D.C., JULY 1996). To further bolster Maj. Rokke’s accusations, all the following regulations are being violated, specifically section 2-4 of United States Army Regulation-AR 700-48 dated Sept.16, 2002, requiring: (1) "Military personnel "identify, segregate, isolate, secure, and label all RCE" (radiological contaminated equipment). (2) "Procedures to minimize the spread of radioactivity will be implemented as soon as possible." (3) "Radioactive material and waste will not be locally disposed of through burial, submersion, incineration, destruction in place, or abandonment" and; (4) "All equipment, to include captured or combat RCE, will be surveyed, packaged, retrograded, decontaminated and released IAW Technical Bulletin 9-1300-278, DA PAM 700-48.” With the military’s blatant violations placed in the public eye due to Mj. Rokke’s courage to buck the system, other experts and scientists quickly came to Maj. Rokke’s side, offering startling information and detailed statistics showing the seriousness of the DU problem and the government’s failure to take responsibility even though it obviously caused the problem. Radiation experts Leuren Moret and Marion Fulk, along with others like Dennis Kyne, Bob Jones and Mark Zeller, have provided documentation for an explosive video just released, written and produced by Joyce Riley and William Lewis, called “Beyond Treason,” providing an in depth look at DU used in the Gulf Wars and its likelihood of causing numerous civilian and military illnesses. “It has been determined that the equivalent of more than 400,000 Nagasaki bombs has been released in the middle east since 1991,” said Moret, citing a report and subsequent speech at a 2000 depleted uranium conference given by Professor Yagasaki, a physicist and well-respected nuclear radiation expert. Moret, who has spent a life time working in the nuclear field, first as a staff scientist at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Laboratory in California, is now a member of The Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), a privately funded group studying the devastating effects of depleted uranium especially in Iraq and Afghanistan. And the writers of Beyond Treason added more ammunition to Rokke’s accusations regarding the government’s failure to recognize the DU problem 15 years after it was first exposed: “The ailing Gulf War heroes from all 27 coalition countries slowly die from of “unknown causes,” they wait for answers from their respective governments, but no satisfying or even credible answers have come forth from the military establishment. Records that span over a decade point to negligence and even culpability on the part of the U.S. Department of Defense and their ‘disposable army” mentality. “The VA has determined that 250,000 troops are now permanently disabled, 15,000 troops are dead and over 425,000 are ill and slowly dying from what the Department of Defense still calls a mystery disease. How many more will have to die before action is taken?” Although Maj. Rokke has been fighting to save the lives of thousands of afflicted veterans, he is also trying to save his own life as he was originally exposed to DU in 1990 and 1991 while deployed in Iraq and looking into the hazards of DU. “First, I remember experiencing breathing problems, then a rash and then bleeding sores that never go away,” said Rokke, 56, adding DU exposure is slowly, day by day, turning him into an invalid. “The sad thing is that only several hundred military personnel have even been tested for DU exposure since the beginning when there are literally hundreds of thousands afflicted. “In fact, it took the military more than two years to even tell me that I was ‘hot,’ withholding my urine tests and hiding the truth. One of the reasons I went public is because so many soldiers are dying from the same symptoms I have and the military simply still refuses to take medical responsibility and care for them.” Recently, to keep the DU issue alive, Maj. Rokke published an article in the Nov. 27, 2004 edition of the popular Vanity Fair magazine, where he updated his concerns with new information about Gulf War II. After the article appeared, he said the Pentagon and others in military circles immediately unleashed another attack on his character, accusing him of lying and even saying he never headed up the Pentagon’s DU program in the first place. “I guess if I played their game, I would sitting somewhere with a cushy $100,000 a year job,” said Mj. Rokke. “But I decided to do what’s right no matter what the consequences. But, don’t get me wrong, I’m not a peace-nick. I am a military officer and a warrior. I would not hesitate to use nuclear weapons only, however, if it was a last. But I also feel the military should live up to its responsibilities and follow regulations, which is not the case now and why I am speaking out.” DU links http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248 Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush No Diana, that is not what I said. I posted what HEALTH PHYSICISTS believe. They are the experts in such matters. Just like structural engineers are the experts in building collapses. If you choose to ignore their experience, education and wisdom, it is no skin off my back. But I sure wish you wouldn't post falsehoods like the above to folks (like robin) who have bozo'd themselves from my side of the conversation because then they will be further misinformed.
"The Doctor, the Depleted Uranium and the Dying Children" Doctor's Gulf War Studies Link Cancer to Depleted Uranium Dr. Durakovic said that, unlike many other institutions involved in testing for uranium, he uses mass spectometry tests that measure the relative abundance of each isotope in the body. He said he found depleted uranium, including uranium 236, in 62 percent of the sick gulf war veterans he examined. He believes that particles lodged in their bodies and may be a cause of their illnesses. Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush This is a good example of how misinformed robin is, Diana. She posts something quoting Doug Rokke as if he is an expert on DU. Let's examine that claim and some other claims others (and Rokke himself) have made about Rokke. For example, this source, http://apfn.net/apfn/DU.htm , says Doug Rokke was the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon's Depleted Uranium Project ... indeed, it claims he was the Director of that project. It claims he has a PhD in health physics and was originally trained as a forensic scientist. It claims he's a former professor of environmental science at Jacksonville University. It claims he's a Vietnam Veteran. It claims he has a doctorate in technology from the University of Illinois. It claims he was an Army Lieutenant in charge of clean up and disposal of Iraqi and American tanks. It claims he was a US army colonel who was tasked with the post-first Gulf war depleted uranium clean-up. It claims he was an "Army health physicist". It claims that of the 100 people on Rokke's decontamination team, 30 have already "dropped dead." Now the question ... is any of that true? The answer? Very, very little. First, Doug Rokke is NOT a "health physicist". He LIED about that. Rokke has a Ph.D. in "Physics and Technology Education". His PhD is in EDUCATION. He's not a member of any physics organizations or societies. He is, in fact, a member of the National Association of Industrial Technical Teacher Educators, the "Council of Technology Teacher Educators" as well as a member of the "American Vocational Association, Technology Education Division". Plus he did presentations at various Technology Education symposiums. And not one Physics symposium or physics organization or physics paper is mentioned in that rather lengthy resume at Traprock (http://web.archive.org/web/20030210052102/traprockpeace.org/RokkeVitae.html). He was an assistant professor of environmental science at Jacksonville State University and he never gained tenure. As to the claim about him being trained as a forensic scientist, his resume might suggest he was also trained as a process engineer ... because he made some fasteners at one point in his life. Here are some more sources that question Rokke's claims and expertise: ************** http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html 30 Dead or Zero Dead? Military Spokesman Contradicts Fatalities Claim by Doug Rokke I recently received an email (indirectly) from a military source having the following email address: (special.assistant@deploymenthealth.osd.mil) The gist of the email is that Doug Rokke's claims about the health effects in members of his gulf war clean up team are not accurate. I decided to see what I could find on the Internet about those claims before posting this government response. The most common claim, attributed to Doug Rokke, is that 30 members of his "100 member team" have died, with the implication being that the death was from depleted uranium. Here is a typical quote where the information seems to come from Doug Rokke. This article is by Larry Johnson in the Seattle Post - Intelligencer but it is certainly not the only one as there appear to be dozens of similar texts on the Internet: "Rokke and his primary team of about 100 performed their cleanup task without any specialized training or protective gear. Today, Rokke said, at least 30 members of the team are dead, and most of the others -- including Rokke -- have serious health problems". ... snip ... ......................................................... The following information from the military "Special Assistant on Deployment Health" paints a quite different picture. Unless Rokke can come up with the names of most of the 30 who he alleges have died, I will have to believe the government information, rather than Rokke's claim. Rokke seems to have exaggerated both his role and the number of people who have died since the cleanup. Here is the email from the official government source: End of quote. My comments: It seems that as of 1998, not a single member of the team had died of exposure to uranium, contrary to Rokke's claim. Before posting the above text, I contacted Doug Rokke and asked him to comment on this material. He refused to say anything in support of his earlier claim that 30 people had died from his organization and instead showed an intense desire to change the subject. ***************** http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html Comments by Dr. Otto Raabe, Health Physicist, in regard to Doug Rokke The following text was published on the Radsafe list. It is from Dr. Otto Raabe, former President of the Health Physics Society. Dr. Raabe has far more education and experience in Health Physics than Doug Rokke. November 26, 2002 Davis, CA Last night I went to hear Doug Rokke's performance at the Davis Community Church concerning the "poisoning of whole nations by the use of DU munitions by the U.S. military". In his talk Rokke made numerous technical errors concerning uranium toxicology and health physics including saying that a beta dose to the skin of 300 mrem exceeded the standard for whole body exposure. I strongly objected to his misrepresentation of the DU toxicology facts during the comment period. I think my objections fell on closed minds, however, since this was a cultist group of "peace activists" who think disarmament of our nation will lead to peace. Rokke's stated purpose is to get the U.S. to stop using some of our best field weapons that employ DU projectiles. Rokke's performance was clever and polished. I think he has had professional drama coaching. Not since Helen Caldicott have I heard such masterful manipulation of the audience. He credited himself at every turn with being highly principled while always casting the U.S. military as nefarious and cold-blooded. He claimed he was fired by the government because of his dedication to health and safety. Much of his talk involved references to toxic chemicals released by our military action in the Gulf War, contaminated food provided by the Saudis, and claimed poisoning of people by DU dust. He said he was a "health physicist" (BAC - which proves Rokke is the ultimate source of the lies identified in this post) and implied that he had a Ph.D. in physics by reference to being in his "physics lab" while working on his doctorate. Actually, his doctorate is in "Education Methodology", which I got him to admit during the questioning. He is certainly not a qualified health physicist. According to reliable sources, he is currently a substitute teacher in a middle school in Urbana, Illinois, and a director of a children's camp in the summers (BAC - this pro-Rokke source, http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03.htm, confirms that). Rokke said that in the Gulf War he was the "Director of the Army Depleted Uranium Project," and that virtually everyone who worked on the project was sick from exposure to DU. The diseases and ailments that he claimed for DU conflict with 50 years of research on DU toxicology and with the findings of the Department Defence who are carefully evaluating military personnel who were exposed to high levels of airborne DU aerosols. See http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii Unfortunately, the audience of about 100 people were enthralled with Rokke and angry with me for objecting to his erroneous statements and misrepresentation, but I think it was important to cast some doubt on this charlatans's proclamations. Otto Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D. CHP ***************** From this Australian government document: House:Legislative Council Statement Date Wednesday, 13 August 2003 ... snip Lancelin Defence Training Area HON FRANK HOUGH (Agricultural) [5.39 pm]: In early July I was made aware of a brochure that was being circulated in Lancelin by the Greens (WA), which was titled “Depleted Uranium: The Silent Killer”. I listened to the Liam Bartlett show on the radio and heard people say that their property values had halved because the Americans were using bombs with uranium tips in Lancelin, which would contaminate the water. I obtained a copy of the brochure issued by Hon Dee Margetts. It states that Dr Doug Rokke, a United States expert on depleted uranium, visited Lancelin on 6 July 2003. It also states, in part - "Dr Rokke was a major in the US Army and former head of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project, responsible for training US personnel in preparation for Gulf War I in terms of their exposure to environmental hazards including radiation. Dr Rokke holds a PhD in Philosophy and a Master of Science." I was rather annoyed when I read that. It was obviously based on information the member received and not from either Senator Robert Hill or the United States Consul General in Perth, Oscar De Soto. I took the time to write to Oscar De Soto and Senator Robert Hill. My letter to the Consul General states, in part - "I am writing to seek the Consulates assurance that the United States of America has not used and will not use Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions at the Lancelin Defence Training Area (LTDA) in Western Australia." I received a reply from the Consul General this morning. It states - QUOTE: "Thank you for your letter dated July 17 regarding Depleted Uranium . . . Firstly, let me make clear that the United States, as a matter of policy and practicality, does not use DU munitions at the Australian Lancelin Defence Forces range. DU munitions are seldom used in training anywhere because they are too costly to expend for training. Furthermore, the U.S. military uses the Lancelin Range only infrequently, and only by invitation of the Australian Government. When U.S. forces use the range, it is always jointly with Australia and in compliance with all Australian laws and environmental rules. The U.S. military utilizes Australian environmentalist planners on each and every use. Secondly, Dr. Doug Rokke has made exaggerated and untrue claims during his visit to Australia. Dr. Rokke has exaggerated his background. He is not, and has never been “the foremost U.S. military expert on DU,” as he was described in the June 18th Canberra Times. He is not a medical doctor. His Ph.D is in education. He earned a Ph.D in Science/Technology Education from the University of Illinois, Urbana in 1992." If he was finishing his PhD in 1992 he was certainly not, as Hon Dee Margetts claims, running the Gulf War as a major in 1991. He was still at university. The letter continues - QUOTE: "Dr. Rokke did not join the U.S. as a medical officer in 1967, as reported in the Canberra Times. He joined as an airman, an avionics technician. According to the Department of Defense, Dr. Rokke was not “in charge of cleaning up radioactive waste” after the 1991 Gulf War, as was described in a June 18th ABC broadcast. As a First Lieutenant, Dr. Rokke was assigned to the 12th Preventative Medical Detachment of the 330th Medical Brigade prior to and during the war. There were 66 people assigned to the unit; he was the most junior of 14 officers." He was one level from being a gopher! He was a junior lieutenant. That is a long way from being a major. They have different pips. He may not have been able to distinguish them! The letter continues - QUOTE: "Initially, he was responsible for conducting nuclear, biological and chemical training." Hon Peter Foss: He sounds like a fraud. Hon FRANK HOUGH: He does. Others sell snake oil. They get carried away. What is worse is that they get mixed up with the Greens (WA) and try to pull the wool over our eyes. I know I could go to America and become Surgeon General and an honorary brigadier and take people for a ride. The people in Lancelin should not be subject to charlatans who tell them their water is full of depleted uranium. The letter from the Consul General concludes - QUOTE: "In closing, let me reiterate that the U.S. military does not use DU munitions in Lancelin. I urge you to share this information with your constituents and other Members of Parliament. . . . Yours sincerely, Oscar De Soto, Consul General of the United States of America" I spoke to the consulate office this morning and I was guaranteed the information is very accurate. The consulate probably has a system linked with the Central Intelligence Agency to pull the records. The details of the letter were not made up overnight. The Consul General took three and a half weeks to research the situation. He was quite clear in determining the facts. Another part of the letter states - QUOTE: "While Dr. Rokke presents himself as an expert, this does not make it so. His role in the 1991 Gulf War, at the US Army Chemical School, and his educational background do not qualify him as an expert on the purported health effects of depleted uranium. . . . It is important to make a clear-cut distinction between Dr. Rokke’s technical qualifications and those of certified medical health physicists who are qualified to assess the medical implications of radiation exposures." The member should apologise to the people of Lancelin. She has been badly misinformed and badly misinformed them. She should write to the Consul General and apologise sincerely for having a go at the US Navy. We have enough problems with trying to establish relationships with other countries without having to deal with this type of rubbish. If she is not prepared to do that, she should enjoy life as something other than a parliamentarian. She is abdicating her responsibilities by putting out this type of rubbish and putting fear in the hearts of people who live in the broader community. This is one of the ploys that people work through. Another part of the letter states - QUOTE: "Regarding allegations in the pamphlet that the U.S. Navy plans to establish a permanent base at Cockburn Sound in Western Australia as part of the Sea Swap program, I can confirm the United States has no plans to establish a base in Western Australia or anywhere else in Australia. The Australian Marine Complex at Cockburn Sound is a Western Australian public-private commercial project. If the U.S. Navy uses the Complex for maintenance, it will be on the same terms as any other customer. That Dr. Rokke’s baseless claims regarding DU are associated with the U.S. Navy’s activities in Western Australia appear aimed at provoking anxiety and perpetuating disinformation in the community." I am extremely annoyed. I think I have contained myself very well. I have been rather humble and subtle in this because this type of rubbish has got to cease. People must not go to the broader community rumour mongering and making up stories for the betterment of their own. I often see the fairy-floss dancers on the sand hills at Lancelin at night dropping petals. I have people ringing me saying their house at Lancelin has halved in value. These are the people they appeal to. I hope my house at Lancelin has not halved in value, because I know who I will be chasing for the other half of the value. I believe the member might be getting a pay rise! **************** http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/0311/msg00401.html Dear Editor: I thought that you might want to correct some errors and false implications in your article, "Nuclear physicist to give presentation on weapons at Franklin College." Doug Rokke is a retired U.S. Army Reserve major. He did not retire from the Regular Army. He is not old enough to collect his Army Reserve retirement pay. He is not a nuclear physicist and he is not a health physicist. He is occasionally employed as a substitute teacher. It appears his primary function is to travel around the world getting paid for speaking against depleted uranium. He was not a director of the U.S. Army depleted-uranium project. No such project with that name ever existed. In addition, he was not a director of anything else as far as I know. He is a Gulf War veteran, not a Gulf War combat veteran. He was never involved in combat. As background information, I am a nuclear physicist and a health physicist, have been a director, am retired from the Regular Army, and was in combat in Vietnam. I do not consider Rokke my peer in any of those areas. I realize that you were passing on information given to you to publicize the event. Hopefully, my corrections will indicate that the speaker has an agenda that tends to ignore the facts. Robert Cherry, Ph.D Certified Health Physicist Colonel, U.S. Army (retired) *************** Let's investigate Rokke's PhD thesis: ************** http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/ejournals/JTE/supplements/FosterBibliography.html A Partial Bibliography of Recent Graduate Research in Technology Education and Related Fields ... snip ... This bibliography is a compilation of recent masters theses and doctoral dissertations completed in Technology Education, and related fields such as Industrial Arts, Industrial Technology, Industrial Vocational Education, and Trade & Industrial Education at institutions listed in the NAITTE/CTTE Directory. The initial bibliography was compiled for a research project (See Foster, 1992) funded by the Graduate Studies Committee of the Council on Technology Teacher Education (CTTE) from 1990 to 1992. ... snip ... Rokke, D. L. (1992). "Perceived physics concepts needed to teach secondary technology education as general education." Unpublished doctoral dissertation, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign. (BAC - health physics? No.) ******************** And what about that military career? In addition to his *illustrious* Army career, Rokke's Traprock resume lists him as being in the Air Force from 1967 to 1973, claims to have been on B52's. His Taprock resume listed "McClennan Air Force Base, California, Restoration Advisory Board. And the site for that says "Born in Illinois 1949, professor Doug Rokke joined the US Air Force in 1967, took part in the Vietnam War from 1969 to 1971 as a B52 pilot." Of course it also says he "obtained his PhD in nuclear physics." But that perhaps is only what Rokke told them. But he clearly is a man of some accomplishment. (sarcasm) Now let's look at some more of what Dr. Rokke himself says about his time in Iraq ... ************ From http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03.htm "What we did in December of 1990 [was that] we made a conscious decision at the command headquarters to deliberately and willfully blow up chemical stockpiles, along with the biological stockpiles, along with the nuclear reactors that Iraq possessed. We knew where they were. We knew what he had." Now I wonder what the impact of all those chemicals and biologicals was on the Iraqi populace and our troops? Funny thing ... the good Doctor doesn't say. But it can't have been nil. Right? Yet he seems to want to blame all illnesses and deformaties on DU. Does that make ANY sense? "Well, we blew up the reactors" Gee. Again, I wonder what the impact of that was on the populace and our troops ... as opposed to DU whose affects has been repeated examined by lots of responsible organizations (including REAL health physicists) and found to be relatively benign? "Any time you move a city or an army, or you blow up and infrastructure, you release toxic industrial chemicals from everything that you can think of in a city, a community and in an industry. Unbelievable releases. People are sick all over the place." Again ... something other than DU in the Iraqi environment ... on top of what Saddam himself had released during the decades he processed, tested, produced, maintained and finally disposed of WMD in all its vile forms. Yet you folks seem to think most Iraqi health problems and most of our soldier's health problems are due to American DU. Don't be ridiculous. That's not scientific at all. That's just anti-American hysteria. "PESTICIDES" Those the Iraqi's had ... as the Doctor alluded to ... were not under "EPA guidelines, under CFR 40*". As he said "We have NO idea what we sprayed on everybody" and the Iraqis had been spraying that stuff on their land and dumping it into their water FOR DECADES. But its ALL due to DU. Right? No, that's just plain illogical. "OIL WELL FIRES Unbelievable complex organic, inorganic, particulates, and heavy-metal exposures. ... snip ... The people were so sick right off the bat that at the command headquarters, we issued a medical directive that nobody should be anywhere near the oil fires without full respiratory and skin protection." And guess who started those fires? S. A. D. D. A. M. Yet Rokke wants to blame us and our DU for any illness. Now how K**KY can one be? "During Gulf War I, we fired approximately 380 tons of solid uranium." Do you want to guess how many tons of radioactive waste the Iraqi's produced and disposed of without any real concern for their populace over 30 years? How many tons of WMD related chemicals and banned pesticides they just DUMPED in the earth or water ... or pumped into the air? How many tons of biological agents they just released into the environment? And our troops were exposed to that. And so were the Iraqi populace. Yet Rokke want to claim most medical problems are due to DU. One can only laugh at such K**KINESS. Do you know there are Gulf War soldiers who were struck by friendly fire and still have DU particles in their bodies and who have no observable effects on their health? How can that be for something as toxic as you folks want us to believe? Do you know that without DU many American soldiers lives would have been lost in combat? DU was a factor in our military forces totally dominating the battlefield in Iraq. It appears you want to exchange more military casualties for raw hysteria about the POSSIBLE long term affects of DU. Without the science to back up that hysteria. Do you know that Dr Rokke is in essense claiming that thousands of people who are devoting their lives to protecting our soldiers’ health are acting irresponsibly. This isn't far from the K**KY claims that thousands of structural engineers and other professionals are ignoring the bombs in the WTC towers ... another conspiracy theory promulgated by many of same folks chanting about DU. ************** Finally, note what other kookiness Rokke promotes. http://www.rense.com/general67/radfdf.htm "Regarding the missile theory, it is also backed up by retired Army Maj. Doug Rokke, a PhD educational physics and former top military expert banished from the Pentagon after the military failed to follow regulations regarding the use, clean up and medical treatment regarding the use of depleted uranium. “When you look at the whole thing, especially the crash site void of airplane parts, the size of the hole left in the building and the fact the projectile's impact penetrated numerous concrete walls, it looks like the work of a missile,” said Maj. Rokke from his Rantoul, IL home this week. “And when you look at the damage, it was obviously a missile. Also, if you look at the WTC and the disturbing flash hitting the tower right before the impact of the airplane, it also looks like a missile was used.” So this DU *expert* is also an *expert* in structural engineering, impact, steel, concrete, and video image interpretation. Simply amazing. Maybe you can do robin a favor, Diana. Post the above information to robin so she's no longer in the dark about Doug Rokke.
You don't have to be a health physicist to know the properties of uranium or depleted uranium. That is a fact. Many chemists, physicists, biologists, phyicians and others have a very good understanding of the effects of all forms of uranium on living organisms.
They are the experts when it comes to the effects of radiation and radioactive materials on people. Just like structural engineers are the experts when it comes to collapse of buildings. Which is why it's hard to believe a conspiracy theory where so few (if any) of the many health physicists (or structural engineers) in the world are supporters. Can you name any, Diana?
I would not trust sources on DU that are paid for by the military or anything connected to it. I would look for objective established sources which are easy enough to find in various reference books.
Again, health physicists are not the only ones who know about the properties of uranium. Have you ever heard of a field called industrial hygeine? If I'm not mistaken, health physicist is a relatively new field (or term), and the properties of uranium have been known for a long, long time. Properties of atoms and even many molecules have been esbablished long ago. As I said there are many reference books where such information can be found.
So are many PhD physicists, believe me.
BeAChooser: Your proof for this? Because health physicists ... who are the experts in such matters ... say it isn't. In fact, I couldn't find one who says it does. Seems there's rumbling coming out of Europe, too... Uranium 'killing Italian troops' By Christian Fraser BBC News, Rome 10 January 2007, 09:59 GMT http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ europe/6247401.stm Italian soldiers are still dying following exposure to depleted uranium in the wars in Bosnia and Kosovo, their relatives say. Troops who served during the wars in the 1990s believe they have contracted cancer and other serious illnesses from extended exposure to the munitions. The US says it fired around 40,000 depleted uranium rounds during the Bosnian and Kosovo conflicts. A pressure group says 50 veterans have died and another 200 are seriously ill. Depleted uranium is used on the tips of bullets and shells. Because of its density it can pierce the armour plating on tanks. But when it explodes it often leaves a footprint of chemically poisonous and radioactive dust. The Italians who served in Bosnia and Kosovo were involved in the clear-up of battlefields and came into close contact with exploded ammunition. Children with disabilities The association representing the soldiers, known as Anavafaf, says many of those who have died or are ill have contracted cancer. In 2002 the Italian defence ministry published a report compiled by independent scientists which found a higher than average number of servicemen were suffering from cancer. It said there was an excessive number of Hodgkin's disease victims among Italian Balkan peacekeepers. A number of children fathered by the soldiers have been born with disabilities. There are similar reports from soldiers' associations in Belgium, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands. Both the US and Britain acknowledge the dust from depleted uranium can be dangerous if inhaled but they insist the danger is short-lived and localised.
Again, Diana, don't you find it curious that NONE of the folks most qualified in the effects of radiation and radioactive materials on humans have joined the anti-DU bandwagon? But just for fun, why don't you give me the name of a PhD physicist who has and a link to what he/she claims. The ball is in your court if you think you actually have an expert.
BeAChooser: Your proof for this? Because health physicists ... who are the experts in such matters ... say it isn't. In fact, I couldn't find one who says it does. I think you'll see various "experts" named in Point #13 including a Japanese radiation expert, Professor Katsuma Yagasaki, ( and who should know better the health risks and dangers of radiation than Japanese researchers?) as well as a noted health expert on DU formerly employed by the US Government to do research on this very subject and who is currently doing similar research for the Canadian government, Dr. Durakovik. BAC, be careful what you wish for because sometimes you get your wish - stuffed into your ill-informed face. Tah tah - learn what the experts say about DU and also read how the judge ruled and his recommendations regarding the US gov'ts use of DU. http://www.ratical.or g/radiation/DU/ICTforAatT.html INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR AFGHANISTAN AT TOKYO Final Written Opinion of Judge Niloufer Bhagwat 10 March 2004 THE PEOPLE Versus GEORGE WALKER BUSH President of the United States of America INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL TRIBUNAL FOR AFGHANISTAN AT TOKYO The Prosecution has presented a formidable Indictment against the Defendant, George Walker Bush, President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief of US military forces for serious crimes: waging a war of aggression on Afghanistan, war crimes and crimes against humanity against the Afghan people, against prisoners of war and the use of radioactive depleted uranium weapons of mass destruction, against the people of Afghanistan, with serious fall out effects on the military personnel of the United States, UK and other forces deployed, and on countries in and around the region. ******************************************************************************* 13. Use of genocidal and omnicidal radioactive Depleted Uranium weapons in Afghanistan, a war crime, genocide, and omnicide The evidence presented before the Tribunal, which has shocked the conscience of the judges of this Tribunal, is the thoroughly researched evidence on the genocidal and omnicidal nature of Depleted Uranium weapons used in Afghanistan by United States military forces, with the Defendant as their Commander-in- Chief by Leuren Moret, President, Scientists For Indigenous People, City of Berkeley Environmental Commissioner; Professor Katsuma Yagasaki of the Faculty of Science of the Ryukyus University, Okinawa; and of Major Doug Rokke, Professor of Physics and Geosciences of Jacksonville State University, former Director of DU weapons project of the US army from 1994-1995 in charge of the cleaning up of DU in Iraq, himself affected by DU. These three witnesses made available to this Tribunal, details of their investigations, scientific documents, memorandum from the US army sources and the Manhattan project; statistical studies of people of Iraq, children and others exposed to DU ordnance after the first Gulf War, including from the Gulf War Veterans Association, on the nature of this weapon; which prove beyond doubt that the Defendant as Commander-in-Chief of US forces used DU weapons in Afghanistan, in the manner that Zyklon-B was used across Europe; as a weapon of mass murder in Afghanistan calculated to destroy of all living species exposed. Professor Albrecht Schott, Scientist, World Depleted Uranium Centre, Berlin in an address titled "Consequences of the Military and Civil Use of Depleted Uranium (DU)", at the public symposium on `American Policy and its Consequences', has described Depleted Uranium as "A Weapon Against This Planet." Prosecution Document E-130; this leads logically to the word "Omnicide" used by witness Leuren Moret, among other scientists while describing the effect of this weapon system; as going beyond the "silent genocide" it has inflicted on the Afghan and Iraqi people. Rosalie Bertell author of the classic book No Immediate Danger has given the following comprehensive meaning of the term Omnicide as: "The concept of species annihilation means a relatively swift, deliberately induced end to history, culture, science, biological reproduction and memory. It is the ultimate human rejection of the gift of life, an act which requires a new word to describe it as omnicide." The use of DU ordnance in Afghanistan by the United States military forces has not been denied. The US military forces with the Defendant as Commander-in- Chief, with full knowledge of the nature and impact of the weapons system, known to the Manhattan project as early as 1943; used DU ordnance by way of attack aircraft, AH-64 helicopter gun ships, advanced cruise missiles, CALCM among others. PGU-14 API uranium piercing munitions fired by Vulcan Canon installed on A10 Gun ships, and AH-64 Apache gun ships apart from the Bunker buster bombs (DU weapons) which were dropped from F-16 attack planes. It is authoritatively estimated by independent scientific investigations and reports on record before this Tribunal, and the prosecution conservatively estimates, that at the very minimum 500-600 tonnes of DU ordnance were used throughout Afghanistan including at Tora Bora, Shaikoot, Paktia, Mazare-e- Sharif, Jalalabad, Nangarhar, Khost, Kundoz and Kabul around Bagram from October 2001 after the bombings commenced on 7th October 2001, whereas Dr Mohammed Daud Miraki of the Afghanistan Recovery Fund refers to not less than 1000 tonnes of Depleted and undepleted Uranium being used. On 16th January 2002, the Secretary for Defense, Mr.Rumsfield in a briefing confirmed that "high levels of radioactive count" had been confirmed due to the result of "Depleted Uranium shells on some warheads" -- Prosecution Document Ex. E-122. Mr Philip Coyle Senior Adviser of the Centre for Defense Information in Washington DC, admitted that DU weapons had been used in Afghanistan. The documented reports of Marc Herold and Dai Williams, Prosecution documents at Ex. E-118 and E-119; the Survey of the Uranium Medical Research Centre, Washington DC; Prosecution Document E-120; the reports of Dr Mohammed Daud Miraki, Afghan Recovery Fund, referred to above, Prosecution Documents Ex. E- 137 and E-138, among other documents refer in detail to the widespread use and effects of DU weapons on the people in Afghanistan inflicting slow and painful death, termed the "silent genocide" affecting the unborn, altering irreversibly the genetic code of all those exposed. Testimonies of fathers and mother, made to the field teams of the Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) are horrifying: "What else do the Americans want? They killed us, they turned our new borns into horrific deformations, and they turned our farm lands into grave yards and destroyed our homes. On top of all this their planes fly over and spray us with bullets . . . we have nothing to lose . . . we will fight them the same way we fought the previous invaders . . . (Sayed Gharib at Tora Bora). Ms Leuren Moret gave vital evidence of United States military policy, on the use of DU weapons, tracing the history of its creation and the politics of its use -- Prosecution document Ex. E 156. Ms Leuren Moret deposed that after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, an international outcry and taboo against nuclear weapons, prevented the further use of nuclear and radioactive weapons; this policy was abandoned in 1991; a decision was made by the Strategic Command in the USA to blur the distinction between conventional and nuclear weapons by introducing DU into the battlefield; this witness has aptly described DU as the "trojan horse" of nuclear weapons with similar effects. The witness maintained that it was the cost factor which made DU weaponry an attractive weapon for the arms industry though on the other hand the cost to humanity was an unacceptable cost; deposing further, that DU being a by-product from nuclear weapons and nuclear power industries, a "radioactive" hazard, a liability to the Department of Energy, millions of tons were passed on to the "military-industrial" complex for the manufacture of weapons. By selling depleted uranium weapons to more than 20 countries, the DOE has made a profitable business for the arms industry. The documents produced by this witness, handed over to her by Major Doug Rokke prove conclusively that the United States government and military were aware from 1943, of the genocidal and omnicidal nature of DU weapons. A memorandum dated 30th October 1943, received by General Groves in charge of the Manhattan Project (nuclear weapons project) from three physicians working under him, Prosecution document Ex. E 126, recommends that radiological materials be developed for use as a military weapon on the battlefield. It was a blueprint for depleted uranium weaponry. The aforesaid memorandum describing the property of DU weapons describes that "the material would be ground into particles of microscopic size and would be distributed, in the form of dust or smoke . . . by ground-fired projectiles, land vehicles, airplanes, or aerial bombs . . . inhaled by personnel. . . . It has been estimated that one millionth of a gram accumulating in a person's body would be fatal. There are no known methods of treatment for such casualty . . . Areas so contaminated by radioactive dust and smokes, would be dangerous as long as a high enough concentration of material could be maintained. . . . Reservoirs or wells would be contaminated or food poisoned . . . Particles larger than 1 µ [micron] in size are likely to be deposited in nose, trachea or bronchi . . . Particles smaller than 1 µ [micron] are more likely to be deposited in alveoli where they will either remain indefinitely or be absorbed into the lymphatics or blood. . . . Beta and gamma emitting fission products may be absorbed from the lungs or G-I tract into the blood and so distributed throughout the body." In the second document produced, memorandum dated 1st March 1991 addressed by Lt.Col. M.V. Zeiman (after the first Gulf War of 1991) to Major Larsson of the Studies and Analysis Branch on the subject of "The Effectiveness of Depleted Uranium Penetrators," Prosecution Document Ex. E-127, emphasizes that "the impact of DU penetrators were very effective against Iraqi armour . . . there has been and continues to be concern regarding the impact of DU on the environment . . . DU rounds may become politically unacceptable . . . and thus be deleted from the arsenal . . . we should ensure their future existence . . . I believe we should keep this in mind when after action reports are written". The interpretation of this memorandum, by the witness Leuren Moret, that this memorandum in fact directed, that after action reports should be falsified, to conceal the real effects of DU weaponry, is correct. The third significant document produced by this witness, is the communication dated 19th August 1993, Prosecution Document Ex. E-128, by Brigadier Eric K. Shinskei, at the relevant time Brigadier General, GS, Director of Training forwarded to the Assistant Secretary of the Army (Installation, logistics and Environment) on the subject, Review of Draft Report to Congress -- Health and Environmental Consequences of Depleted Uranium in the US Army. This communication states that after Operation Desert Storm (the first Gulf War) the GAO examined the Army's ability to contend with Depleted Uranium contamination. The GAO published a draft memorandum which was accepted by the Department of Defence on 15th January 1993 which was a tasking memorandum directing the Secretary of Army to - Provide adequate training for personnel who may come in contact with DU contaminated equipment; Complete medical testing of all personnel exposed to DU contamination. Develop a plan for DU contaminated equipment recovery during future operation. Leuren Moret, concluding her testimony deposed, that from the properties of DU weapons its radioactive particles travelling through air, water and food sources it is not only countries where these weapons are used which are in the affected zone, but all countries within a radius of approximately 1000 miles of the use of DU weapons due to the wind factor and atmospheric dusts; a map was displayed indicating the countries in the DU affected zone from the use of the weaponry in Afghanistan and Iraq, placed on record of this Tribunal which indicates that Iran, Pakistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, China and India are among the countries affected by the use of DU weaponry in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Israel, Turkey, Iran are among the countries affected by the use DU weapons in Iraq during both the military attacks against Iraq. Major Doug Rokke Director of the DU project from 1994 to 1995, himself a victim of the DU weapons, clean up operations after the first Gulf War was interviewed at the Hamburg Conference on DU in October 2003, by Prosecutor Kazuko Ito; the video of interview is Prosecution document Ex. E 124; amicus curiae who has seen the interview has raised no objections to its production. Major Doug Rokke commenting on his attempts to focus on the risks of DU weapons while in charge of the DU program of the US army stated: "military officers from the UK, Australia, Canada and Germany participated in the project to study the risk of DU weapons and I was directed by the Army to direct the team . . . we submitted recommendations which were completely ignored . . . the US army has not taken any measures to protect soldiers. Although we made a proposal that clean-up is essential, complete clean up is impossible. Therefore we proposed not to use DU weapons any longer. However our proposal was ignored by the upper level of the government and completely ignored by NATO, UK, Australia and others." Referring to the videos which had been made for the Pentagon about DU weapons on risks, clean up measures, method of measuring radioactivity etc. for the US army, the witness emphasized that these videos were never used and the U.S. decided to seal this DU project because the results revealed that DU weapons were extremely risky and its use would be prohibited by international pressure. The United States government the witness stated, continues to use these weapons because they are inexpensive and effective, and also because it is a milestone to make fourth generation nuclear ordnance acceptable by advancing the proposition that contamination of fourth generation nuclear weapons would not exceed the levels of radioactive contamination of DU. The evidence of Major Doug Rokke, has to be assessed in the light of the report on Gulf War Veterans. By now half of all the 697,000 soldiers involved in the 1991 Gulf War have reported serious illnesses. According to the Gulf War Veterans Association, more than 30% are chronically ill. Children born to soldiers of coalition personnel after the Gulf War were born deformed or with serious birth defects; including those who had healthy babies earlier. Recently a soldier in the UK has succeeded after several years of struggle, in obtaining a judgement which recognizes the DU weapons had caused serious physiological effects. The third witness before the Tribunal on the issue of the use of DU weapons as a War Crime, Professor Katsuma Yagasaki, Prosecution documents Ex. E 158 and 159 presented oral and documentary evidence clarifying that the term "depleted" seems to convey the incorrect impression that DU is uranium that does not contain radioactivity any more, which is not the case as DU ammunition causes radioactive contamination and is no less serious than nuclear weapons. Even one DU particle has adequate capacity to cause cancer and once absorbed into the body can transform genes, cells and affect all the organs and lymph nodes. Professor Yagasaki deposed that the total amount of 235U dispersed in Hiroshima was 61.2 kilograms; since it was estimated that about 500-600 tons of DU weapons were used in Afghanistan, DU pollution in Afghanistan is 8,170 tons more than in Hiroshima; that the adverse effects of radioactive contamination in Afghanistan and the internal radiation risk is beyond our imagination, as the alpha ray from the DU damages the DNA irreversibly and that the entire concept of low radiation risk was misleading with respect to internal exposure, as DU is absorbed by inhalation and internal contamination. Professor Yagasaki in the paper on record before this Tribunal presented at the `World Uranium Conference Weapons Conference' in October 2003 calculated that 800 tons of DU is the atomicity equivalent to 83,000 Nagasaki bombs. The amount of DU used in Iraq is equivalent to 250,000 Nagasaki bombs. Professor Yagasaki affirmed that DU shells are atrocious radioactive weapons which should not be used and that DU has a long life of 4.5 billion years remaining in the soil, air, water in all affected zones. The Tribunal on an issue vital for this trial had to deal with the ambiguity of the WHO report; this report Prosecution document Ex. E-123 was placed before Professor Yagasaki by the Tribunal, to elicit his scientific response to the document, since it was relied on by amicus curiae to defend the use of this weapons system by the Defendant stating that the WHO report did not refer to such horrific consequences; the WHO report was found to be vague and evasive, partly admitting, partly in denial, not in conformity with the overwhelming and authoritative evidence from 1943, deposed to by the witnesses; moreover the WHO report was not signed; no scientist or panel of scientists had authenticated this report. In his paper on `Undiagnosed Illnesses and Radioactive Warfare' Dr.Asaf Durakovik who first identified the "Gulf War Syndrome" caused by exposure to DU ordnance, Prosecution document Ex. E-120; has on the basis of investigations carried out on Gulf War Veterans in Canada and elsewhere reported that DU accumulates in the bone, kidney, reproductive systems, brain and lung, with verified genotoxic, mutagenic and carcinogenic properties, as well as reproductive and teratogenic alterations even 10 years after inhalation exposure or receiving of shrapnel wounds; this contradicts the WHO report. Professor Yagasaki gave details to the Tribunal on the unscientific nature of the WHO report on material particulars, in particular on the inability of the report to analyze the properties of DU. "On reading the unsigned report of the WHO report on DU munitions, I find that while concealing the serious effects of the weapons system it attempts to take a safe and evasive position, in the eventuality of the report being faulted by the on the ground situation, by mentioning that": ". . . following conflict, levels of DU contamination in food and water may be detected in affected areas after a few years. This should be monitored . . . " ". . . where possible, clean up operations in impact zones should be undertaken, if there are substantial number of radioactive projectiles remaining and where qualified experts deem contaminated levels to be unacceptable . . ." The WHO is contradicted by its own scientist, Dr.Michael H. Repacholi of the WHO who is quoted by Dr. Mohammed Daud Miraki in his report "Silent Genocide from America" Prosecution document Ex. E-137, as having reported that: "DU is released from fired weapons in the form of small particles which may be inhaled, ingested or remain in the environment. . . . Children . . . may be considered to be more at risk of DU exposure . . . within a war zone through contaminated food and water . . ." A recent BBC Television report of February 2004 quoted Dr. Keith Baverstock, Senior Radiation Specialist to the WHO, who stated that he was the co-author of a WHO Report 2001, on the affects of DU on health which was classified as "Secret" by WHO to prevent its release to the public. On October 20, 2002 Dr Asaf Durakovik, Professor of nuclear medicine at George Town University whose report has been submitted to the Tribunal reported preliminary test results on sick civilians from Southern Afghanistan at Qatar. "Specimens contained 100 times the normal level of uranium concentration. Curiously this was undepleted and not depleted uranium . . . Dr Asaf said in an interview to Al-Jazeera television in November 2002, that the US forces had used more DU in Afghanistan than they had in the first Gulf War and the Balkans." "A large number of health specialists in Afghanistan . . . regard the increasing birth defects to be the result of the dropping DU munitions on Afghanistan . . . children were born with no eyes, no limbs, tumours protruding from their mouth . . . with deformed genitalia" It was noticed that soldiers, birds in large numbers died after bleeding from their mouths, noses and ears; many people died without any physical injuries after having developed unusual symptoms. Marc. W Herold of the University of New Hampshire in the detailed study titled "Uranium Wars: The Pentagon Steps Up Its Use of Radioactive Munitions" has reported that - "in the Afghan campaign, a new generation of uranium weapons is suspected to have been used extensively for targeting underground facilities and caves . . . Intensely bombed hard target zones . . . may now be heavily contaminated with DU oxide . . . During the course of the operation, US planes conducted 950 sorties and dropped more than 3,450 bombs." "risks to US and Afghan troops being sent out to check out bombed cave systems are horrendous . . . even more serious are . . . in densely populated target zones like Kabul" "Given the heavy US bombing of the mountains of eastern Afghanistan, it seems probable that large amounts of DU have found their way into the rivers of the Hindu basin whose source is precisely in the mountains of the Hindu Kush. After heading east from Kabul . . . the Kabul river crosses into Pakistan and feeds the Indus river. In arid areas like Southern Afghanistan, most of the uranium oxide would remain as surface dust where it is easily dispersed by wind." "In mid-December, the Pentagon announced the development of another new, high- tech bunker busting bomb in Afghanistan. The laser-guided bomb is called a `thermobaric' weapon, and uses a high temperature, high pressure explosive that destroys underground caves and tunnels." ****************************************************************************** 17. Verdict I find the Defendant, George Walker Bush, President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief of United States Armed Forces guilty - Under Article 2 of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan and under International Criminal Law, for waging a war of aggression against Afghanistan and the Afghan people; Under Article 3, Part I, clause (a), (b), (c), (d), (f), (g) and Article 3, Part II, clause (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (h), (i), (k), (l), (n), (o), (p), (q) of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan, under International Criminal Law and International Humanitarian Law, in respect of War Crimes committed against the people of Afghanistan by the use of weapons prohibited by the laws of warfare causing death and destruction to the Afghan people, maiming men, women and children; Under Article 4, clause (a), (b), (d), (e), (f), (h) and (i) of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal and International Humanitarian Law, for Crimes Against Humanity committed against the people of Afghanistan, resulting in inhumane acts affecting large sections of the population cause by the military invasion, bombing, and lack of humanitarian relief; Under Article 3, Part I, clause (a), (b), (c), (f), (g) and Article 3, Part II clause (f), (k), (p), and (q) of the Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan, under International Criminal Law and the Hague Convention and Geneva Convention (III) of 1949 in respect of the torture and killings of Talban and other prisoners of war who had surrendered and their torture and inhumane conditions of detention and deportation of innocent civilians; In respect of the transport of prisoners in sealed Containers and their death due to suffocation and filing of rifle shots at the Container for creating holes for ventilation with the prisoners inside and for conditions at Sheberghan prison; the Defendant is entitled to benefit of doubt at this trial however the issues are left open for trial, before any other court/Tribunal as the evidence before the Tribunal is not conclusive on the involvement of United States forces; Under Article 3, Part I (c) and (g); Article 3 Part 2 (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (h), (i), (l) and Article 4 (b), (l) of (n), (p), (q) of the ICTA in respect of the serious humanitarian situation resulting from the refugee exodus in Afghanistan due to the bombing of civilian population and civilian infrastructure in a country already affected by serious famine resulting in mass exodus of people and death from bombing, hunger, displacement, disease and absence of humanitarian relief; Under Article 3, Part II, clause (o), (p) and under Article 4 clause (a), (b) and (l) of the statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan, and under International Criminal Law and International Humanitarian Law; in respect of the DU weapons used on the people of Afghanistan to exterminate the population and for the crime of "Omnicide" the extermination of life, contamination of air, water and food resources and the irreversible alteration of the genetic code of all living organisms including plant life as a direct consequence of the use of radioactive munitions in Afghanistan affecting countries in the entire region; Under Article 3, Part II, clause (o), (p) and under Article 4 (a) and (i) of the Statute of the International Tribunal for Afghanistan, under International Criminal Law, for exposing soldiers and other personnel of the United States, UK and other soldiers of coalition forces to radioactive contamination by the use of DU weapons, hazarding their lives, their physiology, and that of their future progeny by irreversible alteration of the genetic code. 18. Direction The Defendant is a convicted war criminal consequently unfit to hold public office; citizens, soldiers and all civil personnel of the United States would be constitutionally and otherwise justified in withdrawing all co-operation from the Defendant and his government and in declining to obey illegal orders of the Defendant and his administration including military orders threatening other nations or the people of the United States on the basis of the Nuremberg Principle, that illegal orders of Superior must not be obeyed. 19. Recommendations Immediate cessation of the use of Depleted Uranium Munitions -- Moratorium on production, stockpiling and manufacture. It has been conclusively proved that DU Weapons are Radioactive, Omnicidal nuclear weapons (the by product of the uranium enrichment process of manufacture of nuclear weapons and nuclear fuel) used as weapons of "silent genocide" in Afghanistan, Iraq and the Balkans and destructive of all life on earth irreversibly altering the genetic code of all exposed. The manufacture, stockpiling and use of such weapons is strictly prohibited by existing Conventions of International Humanitarian Law and must cease immediately. Corporations producing these weapons, heads of State, heads and personnel of Defense departments, military officers and others involved in decisions for its use, are liable to be criminally prosecuted before the International Criminal Court, or within national legal systems, and/or face suits for compensation.
How about that well-known expert on the effects of radiation on humans, Marie Curie? Eh, BeACurie?
Comments (50 - 96) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestBAC was busy defending the use of white phosphorus and DU
#10. To: leveller (#9)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#11. To: robin, leveller, ALL (#8)
leveller - BAC was busy defending the use of white phosphorus and DU
Has he really tried to defend this?
#12. To: leveller, robin, ALL (#9)
BAC was busy defending the use of white phosphorus and DU
I'm sure I've seen him deny their use,
#13. To: robin, leveller, ALL (#10)
okay, that is almost as bad
#14. To: BeAChooser (#12)
mis-remembering
#15. To: BeAChooser (#11)
(Edited)
... when its use will save the life of our soldiers.
#16. To: tom007, ALL (#15)
That means you accept it's use on our soldiers if it's use will save the lives of the enemy.
#17. To: BeAChooser, Robin (#11)
#18. To: leveller, ALL (#17)
".. when its use will save the life of our soldiers."
It was worse than I had remembered!
#19. To: leveller (#17)
... when its use will save the life of our soldiers.
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#20. To: robin (#19)
White phosphorus has underlined our new reputation as war criminals, so Israel isn't the only war criminals anymore.
#21. To: robin, BeAChooser (#19)
BeAChooser: ... when its use will save the life of our soldiers.
#22. To: BeAChooser (#18)
You are soooo supportive of America's soldiers.
#23. To: robin, ALL (#19)
DU is killing our soldiers.
#24. To: Brian S (#0)
#25. To: BeAChooser (#16)
I assure you, Tom, that our enemies will use it on our soldiers if they believe it advantageous and have the ability.
#26. To: beachooser, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#11)
... when its use will save the life of our soldiers.
#27. To: BeAChooser (#23)
Your proof for this?
#28. To: Arator, ALL (#27)
Give this a listen:
#29. To: All (#26)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#30. To: BeAChooser (#28)
#31. To: Arator, robin, ALL (#30)
What kind of wierd government front is HPS
#32. To: Arator, robin, ALL (#30)
#33. To: Arator, robin, ALL (#30)
#34. To: BeAChooser (#33)
#35. To: BeAChooser (#18)
#36. To: SKYDRIFTER, BeAChooser, robin (#26)
#37. To: All (#34)
(Edited)
After Maj. Doug Rokke went public in 1997 exposing the military's flawed DU program, his life has been threatened but he still continues to search for solutions in order to save the lives of those afflicted.
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#38. To: Diana, robin, ALL (#36)
BAC is saying now that DU is harmless
#39. To: All (#37)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#40. To: Diana, robin, ALL (#37)
We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense. Following the ground war, Rokke was attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment. The team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM). Rokke's primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support. Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of "his team." These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.
In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on "his team." Staff members were able to interview 22 of them. Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on "his team" actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles. Two of the 29 had died, however, in interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium. While we respect Rokke's right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so. His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert. These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.
Center for Health and the Environment
University of California, Davis, CA 95616
#41. To: BeAChooser, robin, Scrapper2, Arator (#38)
I posted what HEALTH PHYSICISTS believe. They are the experts in such matters. Just like structural engineers are the experts in building collapses. If you choose to ignore their experience, education and wisdom, it is no skin off my back. But I sure wish you wouldn't post falsehoods like the above to folks (like robin) who have bozo'd themselves from my side of the conversation because then they will be further misinformed.
#42. To: Diana (#41)
You don't have to be a health physicist to know the properties of uranium or depleted uranium.
#43. To: BeAChooser (#32)
#44. To: BeAChooser (#42)
#45. To: BeAChooser (#42)
They are the experts when it comes to the effects of radiation and radioactive materials on people.
#46. To: BeAChooser, robin (#23)
(Edited)
robin: DU is killing our soldiers.
#47. To: Diana, ALL (#45)
So are many PhD physicists
#48. To: BeAChooser, robin, diana, leveller, Burkeman1, Brian S, All (#23)
robin: DU is killing our soldiers.
#49. To: BeAChooser (#42)
so few (if any) of the many health physicists (or structural engineers) in the world are supporters. Can you name any, Diana?
.
.
.