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Title: Feds say family has no rightful claim to 1933 'double eagle' coins
Source:
AP
URL Source: http://www.yorkdispatch.com/pennsylvania/ci_5434174
Published: Mar 14, 2007
Author: AP
Post Date: 2007-03-14 15:08:44 by Neil McIver
Keywords: None
Views: 321
Comments: 29
Feds say family has no rightful claim to 1933 'double eagle' coins MARYCLAIRE DALE The Associated Press Article Last Updated: 03/14/2007 11:44:47 AM EDT PHILADELPHIA -- A family that asked the U.S. Mint to authenticate 10 extremely rare coins cannot prove they were obtained legally and has no right to them, government lawyers argue in court papers. The gold coins, 1933 "double eagles" that were never circulated, could be worth millions of dollars apiece. A comparable one sold for $7.59 million in 2002 -- the highest price ever paid for a coin. Plaintiffs Joan S. Langbord and her two sons say they discovered the cache in 2003 in a safety deposit box belonging to her late father, Philadelphia jeweler Israel Switt. They approached the Mint the next year and agreed to turn them over to be authenticated, the Langbords say. But the Mint -- after vouching for them -- refuses to return them on grounds they were stolen U.S. property. "Plaintiffs fail ... to plead any fact to support their implication that Switt legally obtained the 1933 Double Eagles," Assistant U.S. Attorney Joel M. Sweet wrote in the brief filed Friday. "(That) supports a reasonable inference that Switt obtained the Advertisement 1933 Double Eagles knowing that they were stolen property." Langbord, 76, still works at her father's store on Jeweler's Row, a few blocks from the Mint. She was out of the country Tuesday and could not be reached for comment, a business partner said. In her December 2006 suit, she and sons Roy Langbord of New York City and David Langbord of Virginia Beach, Va., ask for the return of the coins or a settlement of up to $40 million. At a minimum, they say, they deserve a trial over the alleged seizure. Prosecutors argue there was no forfeiture involved because the Langbords never had rightful ownership in the first place. "A thief cannot convey good title to stolen property," Sweet wrote. More than 445,000 of the gold double eagles were minted in 1933, but they were melted into gold bars after President Franklin D. Roosevelt took the country off the gold standard. In 1944, the Secret Service traced 10 separate double eagle coins that had surfaced to Switt. He acknowledged selling nine of the coins but said he did not recall how he had gotten them. "Every single one of the 1933 Double Eagles traced back to Israel Switt," prosecutors said. Switt was not prosecuted because the statute of limitations had run out. However, he was convicted of violating the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 in a separate case, and had his license to deal scrap gold -- which involved him with the Mint on occasion -- revoked. Prosecutors also argue in their brief that someone other than Switt stashed the coins in the bank deposit box. The Wachovia Bank box was rented in 1996, six years after Switt died, they said. And the family did not list the coins or pay taxes on them when his will was executed, they said. Roy Langbord, an entertainment lawyer in New York, referred questions to the family's lawyer. His brother did not immediately return messages. "We strongly disagree with the government's positions, and we're looking forward to making our arguments to the court," said family lawyer Eric Tirschwell. Double eagles, first struck in 1850, are so named because they had a face value of $20, twice the amount of gold coins known as eagles. Two of the 1933 coins, which feature a flying eagle on one side and a figure representing liberty on the other, were permitted to be spared from the melting pot and are at the Smithsonian Institution, but a handful of others also mysteriously survived. The coins at the center of the lawsuit were briefly displayed last year for an American Numismatic Association's convention in Denver. They have been secured at the U.S. Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Ky.
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#1. To: Indrid Cold, Arete, lodwick, DeaconBenjamin, Red Jones, innieway (#0)
(Edited)
ping
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush God, this story just makes me grind my teeth. Not only for the stinking government getting their hands on these (where they're essentially worth $650 since there's no "legal" demand for them), but because these people HANDS DOWN win the title prize for STUPIDEST F***ING MORONS IN THE UNIVERSE! ARRGGGGG!
"pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels – bring home for Emma"
"A thief cannot convey good title to stolen property," Sweet wrote. But, Roosevelt's seizure of the gold wasn't theft? Those goddam arrogant bastards! As I've mentioned before, in 1933 a friend of my mother had a necklace made of Mexican gold coins and she found her safety deposit box drilled, the necklace gone and federal reserve "notes" in its place. Well, if the paper was on par with the gold then why didn't the govt keep its paper? In every currency controversy the govt says that our currency is based on the faith of the people. Well, if they had to steal the gold at gunpoint and force the paper on the people, is that the definition of "faith"? I would have known better than to ask the mint to validate the double eagles, though. That was a stupid thing to do. Just as there is always a market for stolen art, so is there a market for double eagles, and I'd have found buyers somehow, smuggled the coins to Mexico and delivered them from there.
It does irritate, doesn't it? I mean, what the Hell was this guy thinking? *govt agent* "Well sir, we'd like to compliment whoever swiped these coins and stored them all these years! Boy, you sure put one over on us! The coins are real so enjoy your new found wealth!" Any federal judge hearing the case will know what's expected of her or him. When it comes to our gold or our paychecks attacked for "tax withholding" or "SS contributions" there's no chance that a judge will rule against the goddam govt/banksters.
Reminds me of Tommy Chong in one of their movies "Hey man! Somebody stole that thing I stole." I can see the resolution to this being the idiots being reimbursed for the 10 double eagles at face ($200) after they are "lost" in the mint for the second time.
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash. -- Winston Churchill
Goldfinger.
First off- legally their father was never convicted of stealing the coins. So the government referring to the coins as stolen property is not in evidence. They don't have a leg to stand on. But- with judges these days- the Feds don't need a leg to stand on. They are the Feds and they can do what they want. But neverminding that- what did this family think was going to happen? That the Feds would pat them on the head and give them a certificate of authentification? Geessus. Gubmint aint your friend. It is always the best policy to keep contact with government down to the bare bare minimum- even if your think they can help you in some small way- the potential that they will turn around on you and screw you 10 times harder than you would have benefitted is just too great. You would think that this family would have been aware of the half dozen cases the Feds have brought against treasure hunters who had retrieved- at great expense of both time and money- sunken treasure from the floor of the oceans. Yup- the feds (and various state governments) have actually laid claims to treasure pulled up off the ocean floor by hunters who have spent their lives looking for these wrecks- that never ever would have been retrieved by the government. Everyone's policy toward interaction with government should be- to keep it to only what is required or compelled and if you can afford it- to always interface with government through your lawyer- even on small transactions. NEVER volunteer anything to government. Never initiate elective contact with government.
It's a slow process, but experience can convert one stupid ass at a time to soberness. Press 1 for English, Press 2 for English, Press 3 for deportation Death of Habeas Corpus: “Your words are lies, Sir.”
I like it when stupid people do stupid things, and end up being fucked over because they were stupid. Stupid people are the reason the world is as fucked up as it is. We've made the world safe for stupid people, and by putting the danger back into daily life, the stupid should by all rights factor themselves out.
Dying for old bastards, and their old money, isn't my idea of freedom.
You're right. It also should be taken into consideration that some in the numismatic world have advanced an argument that Switt could have legally obtained the 1933 coins when he was exchanging gold bullion for coins. Although the Mint records clearly show that no 1933 Double Eagles were issued, there were allegedly three weeks in 1933 when new Double Eagles could possibly have been legally obtained. The Mint began striking double eagles on March 15 and Roosevelt's Executive Order to ban them wasn't finalized until April 5. I noticed in the article it says "Plaintiffs fail ... to plead any fact to support their implication that Switt legally obtained the 1933 Double Eagles," Assistant U.S. Attorney Joel M. Sweet wrote in the brief filed Friday. I would definitely be dealing with that situation with the above argument. Right again. No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
That should bring about a population reduction in the neighborhood of 90%
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Not really. I think that they are probably fairly representative of just how dumb your average American really is - and that alone ought to scare the shit out of the rest of us. Richard W.
This one has to go to the *Are You Shitting Me?* category on so many counts...1776 time.
That just may be the only real gold left at Fort Knox. I suspect that like the social security "trust fund" the US gold reserves are now nothing more than a pile of dusty IOU's. Richard W.
Politicians in America can do whatever they want, to whomever they want, whenever they want. Just ask self identified Democrats how they feel about FDR. They hold him in god-like status. Some Rs do also for that matter. That said, I don't consider what FDR did as theft. He simply asked for the gold in the form of an illegal law and he received it. This is typical bully behavior that should have been ignored and resisted. So much for the 'greatest generation.'
Jews and their pets - click me
Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is. ~George W. Bush Well, maybe not FDR himself; BUT when you find your bankbox had been drilled open and the gold that was in it now is gone with FRNs in their place (as was related in a reply above), or you are forced to hand over your gold at gunpoint - I'd call that theft. BTW - EXCELLENT website/tagline!!!!
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
If the people were not permitted to decline the "request" then it would appear that we're talking semantics. If the weight of the US Govt was brought to bear against those holding gold, and if ultimately gun play would have resulted if someone resisted the confiscation, then the line between "theft" and "asking in the form of an illegal law" is too thin for my coarse understanding of morality and right and wrong.
I hear you, but I'm thinking ahead to the inevitable day when govt. declares guns illegal and suggests we surrender them. No sale here, as it would be for gold, if they try that again.
Jews and their pets - click me
Like you, I'll take that "suggestion" the same way I do vaccinations - NO. And I don't recommend to them that they try to enforce the suggestion...
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
trust me. it does.
Well, in all honesty, there has to be a lot more to this story which we aren't being told. Not like these people were uneducated. They were in the business and one was a lawyer. I'd guess they made some sort of deal with the government to turn over the "missing" eagles and then came up with a lame cover story. Richard W.
Maybe they wanted to send them to sale with the US Mints certification, ..... or maybe they didn't send all they had to the Mint. hmmmmmmmmm! I wasn't aware that the US Mint had been robbed? Except for the Federal Reserve of course.
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash. -- Winston Churchill
Shouldn't it be that the government has to prove that the coins were obtained illegally, versus their argument that the plaintiffs need to prove they weren't?
I might have sent them one first to see what happened - and that would have been through an attorney who is bound by attorney/client privilege. The fact that the treasury confiscated the first eagle should have been proof enough of certification. Richard W.
uh...yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you? but the truth of the matter is, the government's out to steal your stuff. we'd all do well to follow Burkeman's advice here: Everyone's policy toward interaction with government should be- to keep it to only what is required or compelled and if you can afford it- to always interface with government through your lawyer- even on small transactions. NEVER volunteer anything to government. Never initiate elective contact with government.
Only under a constitutional form of government, one like we used to have.
Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash. -- Winston Churchill
They were never put in circulation. If there was no legal avenue of ownership, then....
True on the circulation part, but I don't actually think from a strict constructionist standpoint that this stands as to ownership, particularly if the original aquirer actually paid the face value for them and the burden of proving whether or not that happened would be on the Mint. I don't recall if any of the $20's actually were shipped, $10's were, and were issued and I've seen some of them (~$125,000 for one in the lowest Mint State grade). The 1964 Peace dollar exists in the same limbo, the numismatic community is almost sure that there are some few of these out, but all the holders are keeping their mouths shut. In that instance, the Denver Mint pre-sold them to employees and subsequently asked them to turn them in but didn't record the actual amounts/personnel who bought them.
"pound pastrami, can kraut, six bagels – bring home for Emma"
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#2. To: Neil McIver, Tommythemadartist (#0)
A family that asked the U.S. Mint to authenticate 10 extremely rare coins...
#3. To: Neil McIver (#0)
(Edited)
Prosecutors argue there was no forfeiture involved because the Langbords never had rightful ownership in the first place.
#4. To: Axenolith (#2)
....but because these people HANDS DOWN win the title prize for STUPIDEST F***ING MORONS IN THE UNIVERSE!
#5. To: Neil McIver (#0)
#6. To: robin (#1)
They have been secured at the U.S. Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Ky.
I've already said too much.
#7. To: Neil McIver (#0)
#8. To: Axenolith (#2)
#9. To: Axenolith (#2)
#10. To: Burkeman1, HOWNDDAWG, robin, Axenolith, Uncle Bill, Neil McIver, Hmmmmm, MUDDOG, TommyTheMadArtist, ALL (#7)
(Edited)
First off- legally their father was never convicted of stealing the coins. So the government referring to the coins as stolen property is not in evidence. They don't have a leg to stand on.
But- with judges these days- the Feds don't need a leg to stand on. They are the Feds and they can do what they want.
Everyone's policy toward interaction with government should be- to
keep it to only what is required or compelled don't squeeze the trigger until you can see the whites of their eyes.
#11. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#9)
We've made the world safe for stupid people, and by putting the danger back into daily life, the stupid should by all rights factor themselves out.
#12. To: Axenolith (#2)
HANDS DOWN win the title prize for STUPIDEST F***ING MORONS IN THE UNIVERSE!
#13. To: robin (#1)
#14. To: MUDDOG (#6)
They have been secured at the U.S. Bullion Depository in Fort Knox, Ky.
#15. To: HOUNDDAWG, all (#3)
But, Roosevelt's seizure of the gold wasn't theft?
#16. To: lodwick, *You Gotta Be Shitting Me* (#13)
(About the quote: Speaking on the war in Kosovo.)
#17. To: Jethro Tull (#15)
(Edited)
That said, I don't consider what FDR did as theft.
#18. To: Jethro Tull (#15)
That said, I don't consider what FDR did as theft. He simply asked for the gold in the form of an illegal law and he received it.
#19. To: HOUNDDAWG, innieway (#18)
#20. To: Jethro Tull (#19)
I hear you, but I'm thinking ahead to the inevitable day when govt. declares guns illegal and suggests we surrender them.
#21. To: Arete (#12)
I think that they are probably fairly representative of just how dumb your average American really is - and that alone ought to scare the shit out of the rest of us.
#22. To: christine (#21)
#23. To: Arete, christine (#22)
(Edited)
Well, in all honesty, there has to be a lot more to this story which we aren't being told.
#24. To: innieway, Burkeman1, HOWNDDAWG, robin, Axenolith, Uncle Bill, Neil McIver, Hmmmmm, MUDDOG, TommyTheMadArtist, (#10)
Plaintiffs fail ... to plead any fact to support their implication that Switt legally obtained the 1933 Double Eagles," Assistant U.S. Attorney Joel M. Sweet wrote in the brief filed Friday.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#25. To: Hmmmmm (#23)
Maybe they wanted to send them to sale with the US Mints certification, ..... or maybe they didn't send all they had to the Mint.
#26. To: FormerLurker, Burkeman1 (#24)
Shouldn't it be that the government has to prove that the coins were obtained illegally, versus their argument that the plaintiffs need to prove they weren't?
#27. To: FormerLurker (#24)
Shouldn't it be that the government has to prove that the coins were obtained illegally,
#28. To: FormerLurker (#24)
Shouldn't it be that the government has to prove that the coins were obtained illegally, versus their argument that the plaintiffs need to prove they weren't?
#29. To: HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker (#28)
They were never put in circulation. If there was no legal avenue of ownership, then....
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