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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad
Source: www.weeklystandard.com
URL Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte ... icles/000/000/013/416urcoa.asp
Published: Mar 17, 2007
Author: William Kristol
Post Date: 2007-03-17 20:20:21 by BeAChooser
Keywords: None
Views: 3481
Comments: 224

Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad

The surge is working--that's what matters.

by William Kristol

03/26/2007, Volume 012, Issue 27

In order to preserve the cosmic harmony, it seems the gods insist that good news in one place be offset by misfortune elsewhere. It may well be that Gen. David Petraeus is going to lead us to victory in Iraq. He is certainly off to a good start. If the karmic price of success in Iraq is utter embarrassment for senior Bush officials in Washington, D.C.--well, in our judgment, the trade-off is worth it. The world will surely note our success or failure in Iraq. It will not long remember the gang that couldn't shoot straight at the Justice Department--or, for that matter, the antics of congressional Democrats--unless either so weakens the administration as to undercut our mission in Iraq.

Obviously, it's too early to say anything more definitive than that there are real signs of progress in Baghdad. The cocksure defeatism of war critics of two months ago, when the surge was announced, does seem to have been misplaced. The latest Iraq Update (pdf) by Kimberly Kagan summarizes the early effects of the new strategy backed up by, as yet, just one additional U.S. brigade deployed in theater (with more to be added in the coming weeks):

This "rolling surge" focuses forces on a handful of neighborhoods in Baghdad, and attempts to expand security out from those neighborhoods. . . . A big advantage of a "rolling surge" is that the population and the enemy sense the continuous pressure of ever-increasing forces. Iraqis have not seen such a prolonged and continuous planned increase of U.S. forces before. . . . The continued, increasing presence of U.S. forces appears to be having an important psychological, as well as practical, effect on the enemy and the people of Iraq. . . . [Meanwhile] in Ramadi, in the belt south of Baghdad stretching from Yusifiyah to Salman Pak, and northeast in Diyala Province, . . . U.S. and Iraqi forces have deprived al Qaeda of the initiative.

This sense of momentum is confirmed by many other reports in the media, and from Americans and Iraqis on the ground.

But back in Washington, congressional Democrats are still mired in the fall of 2006 and seem determined to be as irresponsible as ever. They're being beaten back--in part thanks to the fighting spirit of stalwart congressional Republicans. Last week, the Senate defeated a resolution that would have restricted the use of U.S. troops in Iraq and set March 31, 2008, as a target date for removing U.S. forces from combat.

On the same day, on a mostly party-line vote, the House Appropriations Committee reported out the Democratic version of a supplemental appropriations bill for the war. It was an odd piece of legislation--an appropriation to fight a war replete with provisions intended to ensure we lose it.

Here's what the Democratic legislation does, according to the Washington Post: "Under the House bill, the Iraqi government would have to meet strict benchmarks. . . . If by July 1 the president could not certify any progress, U.S. troops would begin leaving Iraq, to be out before the end of this year. If Bush did certify progress, the Iraqi government would have until Oct. 1 to meet the benchmarks, or troops would begin withdrawing then. In any case, withdrawals would have to begin by March 1, 2008, and conclude by the end of that summer."

Got that? Oh yes, in addition to the arbitrary timelines for the removal of troops, there's pork. As the Post explains, "Included in the legislation is a lot of money to help win support. The price tag exceeds the president's war request by $24 billion." Some of the extra money goes to bail out spinach farmers hurt by E. coli, to pay for peanut storage, and to provide additional office space for the lawmakers themselves. So much for an emergency war appropriations bill.

The legislation may collapse on the floor of the House this week. It certainly deserves to. Republicans can insist on a clean supplemental--no timelines to reassure the enemy that if they just hang on, we'll be gone before long, and no pork. They can win this fight--and if they do, combined with progress in Iraq, the lasting news from March 2007 will not be Bush administration haplessness; it will be that we are on the way to success in Iraq.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 202.

#3. To: BeAChooser (#0)

Weekly Standard...

Proudly bearing the neozio war mongering standard.

BAC - come on - weekly standard? I would have hoped even you might have matured to reading a news source less TelAviv inspired...

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-17   21:25:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: scrapper2, ALL (#3)

Proudly bearing the neozio war mongering standard.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070314/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_baghdad_security "Bomb deaths have gone down 30 percent in Baghdad since the U.S.-led security crackdown began a month ago. Execution-style slayings are down by nearly half. The once frequent sound of weapons has been reduced to episodic, and downtown shoppers have returned to outdoor markets — favored targets of car bombers."

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-17   21:38:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: BeAChooser (#11)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070314/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_baghdad_security

From the same yahoo news article you quoted:

But while many Iraqis are encouraged, they remain skeptical how long the relative calm will last. Each bombing renews fears that the horror is returning. Shiite militias and Sunni insurgents are still around, perhaps just laying low or hiding outside the city until the operation is over.

U.S. military officials, burned before by overly optimistic forecasts, have been cautious about declaring the operation a success. Another reason it seems premature: only two of the five U.S. brigades earmarked for the mission are in the streets, and the full compliment of American reinforcements is not due until late May.

In the months before the security operation began Feb. 14, police were finding dozens of bodies each day in the capital — victims of Sunni and Shiite death squads. Last December, more than 200 bodies were found each week — with the figure spiking above 300 in some weeks, according to police reports compiled by The Associated Press.

Since the crackdown began, weekly totals have dropped to about 80 — hardly an acceptable figure but clearly a sign that death squads are no longer as active as they were in the final months of last year.

In the 27 days leading up to the operation, 528 people were killed in bombings around the capital, according to AP figures. In the first 27 days of the operation, the bombing death toll stood at 370 — a drop of about 30 percent.

Figures alone won't tell the story. In Vietnam, generals kept pointing to enemy body counts to promote a picture of success even when many U.S. soldiers and civilian officials realized the effort was doomed.

True success will be when Iraqis themselves begin to feel safe and gain confidence in their government and security forces. Only then can the economy, long on its heels and with unemployment estimated between 25 and 40 percent, rebound and start providing jobs and a future for Baghdad's people.

A long-term solution also must deal with the militias that sprang up after the ouster of Saddam Hussein.

Much of the relative calm may be due to a decision by Shiite cleric Muqtada al- Sadr to remove his armed militiamen, known as the Mahdi Army, from the streets. Al-Maliki warned the young cleric that he could not protect them from the Americans during the offensive.

U.S. troops rolled into the Mahdi stronghold of Sadr City on March 4 without firing a shot — a radical change from street battles there in 2004.

Some Mahdi Army fighters may have left the city. But Iraqis who live in Shiite neighborhoods say many others are still around, collecting protection money from shopkeepers and keeping tabs on people — albeit without their guns.

When American patrols pass by, Mahdi members step into shops or disappear into crowds until the U.S. troops are gone. Sunni militants remain in some areas of the city too, although last year's sectarian bloodletting drove many Sunnis from their traditional neighborhoods, depriving extremists of a support network.

If militants from both sects are indeed lying low, that suggests they may have adopted a strategy of waiting until the security operation is over, then re- emerging to fight each other for control of the capital.

But positive trends in Iraq have proven hard to sustain. Hopes for reconciliation are quickly shattered. There have been a series of failed security initiatives.

With so many uncertainties, public opinion appears mixed.

"We gain nothing from this government. No change," said Abu Zeinab, a Shiite father of two in Baghdad's Hurriyah district. "Today is like yesterday. What is the difference?"

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-17   21:48:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: scrapper2, ALL (#19)

But while many Iraqis are encouraged, they remain skeptical how long the relative calm will last. Each bombing renews fears that the horror is returning. Shiite militias and Sunni insurgents are still around, perhaps just laying low or hiding outside the city until the operation is over.

If the media had reported WW2 the way they've reported this war, we'd have lost WW2.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-17   21:52:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: BeAChooser (#21) (Edited)

If the media had reported WW2 the way they've reported this war, we'd have lost WW2.

We did lose WWII. We allowed Communism to prevail, which contributed to far greater numbers of deaths than Fascism.

In fact the event which triggered the start of WW II - the Germans invading Poland - speaks to our defeat - without a blink of an eye the communists claimed Poland and other Eastern European nations. The particularly sad thing about Poland was that its Christian citizens were killed by the Naziis in the same numbers as the Jews but to this day the World Jewish Congress is loathe to acknowledge that fact. "As historian Martin Gilbert pointed out, of the first 611 people who died at Auschwitz, 591 were Poles and 20 were Jews." The Poles were largely responsible for deciphering Enigma. Yet we let Stalin take Poland and its Eastern European brethren as part of his "spoils."

http://www.holocaustforgott en.com/Lucaire.htm

"We" hardly talk about that tragic result of WW II. Israel was born and Poland and other Eastern European nations were thrown to the communist wolves. Oh well.

Substitute the words "gulag" for "concentration camp" and "Christian" for Jews" and you get the picture.

Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-17   22:34:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: scrapper2 (#39)

Substitute the words "gulag" for "concentration camp" and "Christian" for Jews" and you get the picture.

Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.

Brilliant post scrapper.

All too true.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   2:23:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Diana, scrapper2, ALL (#85)

Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.

Brilliant post scrapper.

You think so? Is the Soviet Union still around?

And I'm curious. If we'd not gotten involved in WW2, who do you two think would have walked away the big winners?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:09:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: BeAChooser (#103)

And I'm curious. If we'd not gotten involved in WW2, who do you two think would have walked away the big winners?

Everyone.

Nazi Germany would have been destroyed regardless, and the Soviet Union would not have become strengthened, and millions of Eastern Europeans, Baltics peoples and additional Russians would not have died. IMO.

Japan would have imploded in time as well.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   19:16:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Diana, BeAChooser (#125)

BeAChooser: And I'm curious. If we'd not gotten involved in WW2, who do you two think would have walked away the big winners?

diana: Everyone.

Nazi Germany would have been destroyed regardless, and the Soviet Union would not have become strengthened, and millions of Eastern Europeans, Baltics peoples and additional Russians would not have died. IMO.

Japan would have imploded in time as well.

Exactly, diana. Thanks for pitching in - I had lost track of BAC challenging me on this.

Russia lost 17-20 Million soldiers ( prodded onwards by the NKVD) fighting the Germans. In the course of battles, Russia ended up destroying 3/4 of the German ground forces. We stepped in after Hitler made his strategic error - Hitler's defeat was determined as soon as he decided to attack Russia.

The Brits survived the Battle of Britain. The Brits were winning on the African front.

America came in for clean up duty and to fight the Japanese. We lost approx. 300,000 men in WW II. Britain lost 600,000. Russia lost 17-20 Million. Can you imagine such numbers of losses?

There's no doubt that Stalin and his communist government would have fallen right after the Russian-Eastern European fighters changed their focus from defeating the Germans to bringing down Uncle Joe and hanging him in Red Square along with his NKVD officers.

Churchill and FDR gave communism an extension on life. Nothing much is written about the Eastern European lives that were condemned to servitude under communism generally or immediate death in the Soviet gulag camps. Oh well...

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-18   20:55:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: scrapper2, Diana, ALL (#127)

Russia lost 17-20 Million soldiers ( prodded onwards by the NKVD) fighting the Germans. In the course of battles, Russia ended up destroying 3/4 of the German ground forces. We stepped in after Hitler made his strategic error - Hitler's defeat was determined as soon as he decided to attack Russia.

After the war, Hitler's foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop listed three main reasons for Germany's defeat (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4508901.stm ): (1) unexpectedly stubborn resistance from the Soviet Union, (2) the large-scale supply of arms and equipment from the US to the Soviet Union, under the lend-lease agreement, and (3) the success of the Western Allies in the struggle for air supremacy.

Consider this. During the war the US supplied the Soviets with 450,000 lorries. And that's just one category of support. "After the collapse of the Soviet system, Russian historians were able to look into the archival files and total up the real figures. One study, by M.N. Suprin, calculates the caloric content of Lend-Lease foodstuffs sent to the USSR, divides the total by the caloric needs of the Red Army and arrives at a stunning conclusion: "The foodstuffs provided by Lend-Lease to the USSR would have sufficed to feed an army of ten million men for 1,688 days, that is, for the course of the entire war." Another study, by Boris Sokolov, which translates as THE TRUTH ABOUT THE GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR, estimates that the US supplied 92.7% of the USSR's railroad equipment, including locomotives and rails, and from 15% to 90% of production in all other categories. Weeks, who reads Russian, surveys these recent studies and cites them to show that Lend-Lease was indeed "Russia's Life-Saver." (http://www.amazon.com/Russias-Life-Saver-Lend-Lease-U-S-S-R-World/dp/0739107364 )

"Bombing diverted a lot of manpower and military equipment from the front in Russia, while it restricted the expansion of the German war economy." To suggest they, on their own, could have beaten Nazi Germany is highly optimistic. Especially since in technology, Germany was far ahead of the Soviets. A time would have come when that advantage in technology was decisive.

The Brits survived the Battle of Britain. The Brits were winning on the African front.

The reality is that Britain is a island, and it was completely dependent on the US help to provide the materials needed to battle the Axis and to get those materials to the island. Without the US taking sides to make sure that materials were available and arrived, Britain would have been starved out in no time. Prior to our entry in the war, the US provided huge quantities of arms and other materials. The US turned over destroyers to Britain to fight the submarine menance. US ships were involved in prewar shooting incidents to protect the British supply line. The ONLY thing keeping Britain afloat was US assistance. Had we sued for peace, the Axis would have starved them out and eventually unleashed weapons that were far ahead of everyone else on them. The Second Battle of Britain would have been a far different engagement.

America came in for clean up duty

ROTFLOL! There you have it folks ... scrapper's view of our role in WW2.

and to fight the Japanese.

But we weren't going to fight the Japanese. Under your presidency, we were going to apologize to Japan after they attacked Pearl Harbor (after all, we forced them to do it) and sue for peace to avoid hundreds of thousands of dead and the economic costs of fighting such a war. The media would make sure of it. Right?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   22:52:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2, All (#142)

To suggest they, on their own, could have beaten Nazi Germany is highly optimistic. Especially since in technology, Germany was far ahead of the Soviets. A time would have come when that advantage in technology was decisive.

The German people and their neighbors would have tolerated only so much.

There would have eventually been uprisings and the nazi regime overthrown, even without the help of the Soviets.

The German and Austrian people were increasingly miserable in spite of what the History Channel tells us, it would only have been a matter of time, and a very short time at that.

And they became furious when they found out how much they had been lied to by their govt, and how some very bad information such as pertaining to the camps had been kept from them.

Another thing, will triumphs over technology every time.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-19   1:38:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: Diana, scrapper2, ALL (#156)

There would have eventually been uprisings and the nazi regime overthrown,

Like happened in the Soviet Union? Like has happened in Communist China?

even without the help of the Soviets.

Forget the Soviets. They are gone in your alternate world. The Germans defeated them using technology that even the US didn't have at the end of WW2.

The German and Austrian people were increasingly miserable in spite of what the History Channel tells us, it would only have been a matter of time, and a very short time at that.

One would think the Soviet and Chinese people, being as miserable as they were for decades, would have revolted like you claim the Germans would have.

Another thing, will triumphs over technology every time.

Is that so? Then surely Saddam should have beaten us during the First and Second Gulf wars.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-19   11:41:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: BeAChooser, diana (#169) (Edited)

BAC: Forget the Soviets. They are gone in your alternate world. The Germans defeated them using technology that even the US didn't have at the end of WW2.

diana: Another thing, will triumphs over technology every time.

BAC: Is that so? Then surely Saddam should have beaten us during the First and Second Gulf wars.

a. LOL - look who is living in an alternate world - knock, knock anyone home,BAC? If you believe that the Germans defeated the Russians in WW II, then it's no wonder that you believe the propaganda from Weekly Standard and News Max about our eminently successful military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. You're a riot, oozer. From the BBC:

"...In the spring of 1944, a Soviet invasion of Germany became a real possibility, as Soviet troops pursued the retreating German army. Hitler ordered the citizens of Germany to destroy anything that the enemy could put to good use. Embittered by defeats, he later turned against the Germans themselves. 'If the German people lose the war, then they will have proved themselves unworthy of me.'

Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944. More destructive by far than the D-Day landings, Stalin's Operation Bagration in Belorussia eliminated three times more German army divisions than the Allies did in Normandy. Hitler retaliated by demanding specific divisions of the German army stand fast to the last man - the very tactic that Stalin had deployed so disastrously in the early days of the war. Defeat for Germany was only months away.

Final victory came for Russia when Soviet soldiers hoisted the red flag over the Berlin Reichstag in April 1945. Soviet soldiers hoisted the red flag over the Berlin Reichstag in April 1945."

End of story, BAC.

b. You know why Stalin's government did not fall after WW II? One of the reasons and major it was - Stalin's brutal grip was strengthened by the FDR's lend-lease program. It did not just fuel Stalin's war machinery to fight Hitler, it strengthened him to fight any insurrections from within. Didn't you read the Professor Weeks' book from which you quoted?

As for our "beating Saddam" - I don't recall Saddam's army fighting ours in 2003 - I just remember video clips of lots of army uniforms strewn on the streets but no army to face off against. Did you see something different than me? As for our successfully pacifying Iraq after the Iraqi military faded into the shadows, the verdict is still out in that regard. Diana is right - that the "will" of the Iraqi insurgents will ultimately overcome the technology of the foreign occupier. But what do you care? Israel has been made safer by the chaos and instability in Iraq. In fact at last week's AIPAC conference, Nancy Pelosi was booed when she called the Iraq War a failure - that particular crowd thinks the Iraq War was a success - it accomplished everything they wanted to happen - for Israel's national security. In fact, Olmert himself on several occassions has said the Iraq War is great, wonderbar. Well, some people are happy - too bad it's not the US public or the Iraqi civilians or the UK public. But AIPAC and Olmert are on the moon with joy.

BAC, do you even care about the US soldiers' deaths [ apart from your empty platitudes about "respecting" US soldiers] who were sent to fight in a war for lies, a war for the benefit of Israel/Haliburton/Exxon? And why didn't you join this fabulous Iraq war effort if you believed in its merits?

Last but not least the toll the war for lies has taken on our fair nation's reputation on the world stage is a loss we will not be able to recover from for generations to come. And for that we should thank the war mongering chickens**t IsraelFirst neocons like Feith, Wolfowitz, Perle, Abrams and their anti-American ilk - better known as BAC's heroes.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-19   12:47:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: scrapper2, ALL (#173)

If you believe that the Germans defeated the Russians in WW II

I don't believe that. Didn't say it. Didn't suggest it. Just another scrapper strawman. The Soviets defeated the Germans. BUT, in large part thanks to the help of the US. Had the US not provided that help ...

Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944.

Almost three years after the US entered the war.

It did not just fuel Stalin's war machinery to fight Hitler

I'm glad you recognize that the Lend/Lease fueled Stalin's war machine. Without it Hitler's Germany would have won. Then what?

Diana is right - that the "will" of the Iraqi insurgents will ultimately overcome the technology of the foreign occupier.

Well I see you are rooting for their side. Too bad we have folks like you and those in the mainstream media doing everything possible (since almost day one) to weaken OUR will. Given that, whose side are you on?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-19   15:58:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: BeAChooser, diana (#179)

a. scrapper: If you believe that the Germans defeated the Russians in WW II

BAC: I don't believe that. Didn't say it. Didn't suggest it. Just another scrapper strawman. The Soviets defeated the Germans. BUT, in large part thanks to the help of the US. Had the US not provided that help ...

b. scrapper; Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944.

BAC: Almost three years after the US entered the war.

c. I'm glad you recognize that the Lend/Lease fueled Stalin's war machine. Without it Hitler's Germany would have won. Then what?

d. d. scrapper: Diana is right - that the "will" of the Iraqi insurgents will ultimately overcome the technology of the foreign occupier.

BAC: Well I see you are rooting for their side. Too bad we have folks like you and those in the mainstream media doing everything possible (since almost day one) to weaken OUR will. Given that, whose side are you on?

a. Liar. This is what you said in post #169:

"Forget the Soviets. They are gone in your alternate world. The Germans defeated them using technology that even the US didn't have at the end of WW2."

b. What does one have to do with the other? The Russian army was singlehandedly responsible for the German defeat in the summer of 1944. The US military was not in Russia.

In case you were not aware of this, BAC, the Russians had the largest standing army in the world as of 1941.

There are historians including Viktor Suvorov who served in the Soviet army and military intel as well as historian Albert Weeks ( whose book you quoted)who believe that Stalin all along had hoped Hitler would challenge the world powers so Stalin could be called in as an ally to "liberate" European nations he had his eye on taking and brutalizing. Stalin had been preparing all along for a WW where he'd be the victor ( and he was right)and Stalin had been using FDR and his lend-lease plan to rebuild his army to expand Soviet domination and you think this was all well and good? Stalin had spies in FDR's Admin. Stalin stole military tech from our nation. FDR enabled a monster to get to be a bigger monster who double-crossed America. So why are we supposed to be proud of that?

c. I never denied that the lend lease program fueled Stalin's war machine. What I said and so did your Professor Weeks - whose stats you merrily quoted without reading more about the content - was that FDR's lend lease program also fueled Stalin's oppressive machinery as well. FDR condemned millions upon millions of Eastern Europeans to servitude under communism or to immediate death in the gulags. And to that you say nothing - you don't care, and it's transparently clear why.

If we had stayed out of the war, the 2 monster isms would have finished each other off and the Stalinists might have imploded thereafter and we wouldn't have lost 300,000 soldiers. There was zero chance that Hitler would invade Britain after he lost the Battle of Britain. Hitler didn't get his weapons re-armament plans implemeneted by Speer until 1943, for God's sake. Britain was way ahead of Germany in that regard.

I'm wondering why are you so eager to jump into wars when you have never served in any?

Have you seen anyone die of wounds? Have you ever killed anyone? War is brutal even to the survivors. So grow up and get over your illusions about war being a computer game.

d. I support the troops by wanting them to come home asap. There is no mission in Iraq that is relevant to America. By forcing our troops to stay the course or to surge or whatever only benefit's Israel/Haliburton/Exxon. Is that what you support?- all 3 or just 1?

Btw, don't you dare bad mouth or raise any cheesy questions my patriotism without knowing what me and my family have contributed over many generations. I don't have dual citizenship - like some, perhaps you? - I have loyalty to only one nation and that's America so keep your cheap punk back stabbing to the classrooms where you take your lessons at the AEI offices.

As for will, the Iraqis have it because it's their country. They - the insurgents - or as war mongers like yourself like to label Iraqi citizens "the enemy" are planning to fight the foreign occupier to the last man - get it - they have legitimacy on their side - it's their country, not ours, not Israel's, not Haliburton's, not Exxon's. We were not invited to invade and occupy Iraq by the Iraqis. We invaded for lies generated by the Office of Special Plans.

What we need to rely on now is common sense - something that has been in short supply the past 4 years in the White House. Common sense is telling most Americans - who don't have hidden agendas - that we should cut our losses and leave in an orderly fashion by the New Year and leave Iraq to its rightful citizen-owners.

Btw, I saw 2 people interviewed on PBS today - representing both left and right schools of thinking - Wade from the Council of Foreign Relations and Mathews from the Carnegie Foundation and BOTH concurred that the Iraq War was a terrible mistake in judgement - both said they believed that if GWB had the chance to do over again, he would not invade Iraq, and that because of the invasion and occupation we have caused great harm to America's future on the int'l stage and that we are definitely more unsafe now because the neocons' Iraq War was such a grevious act that it has radicalized Muslims around the world as a result.

I hope the neocons - every last Trotskyite one of them - burn in hell for what their duplitious selves wrought on our fair republic.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-20   1:42:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 202.

#208. To: scrapper2, BeAChooser (#202)

As for will, the Iraqis have it because it's their country. They - the insurgents - or as war mongers like yourself like to label Iraqi citizens "the enemy" are planning to fight the foreign occupier to the last man - get it - they have legitimacy on their side - it's their country, not ours, not Israel's, not Haliburton's, not Exxon's. We were not invited to invade and occupy Iraq by the Iraqis. We invaded for lies generated by the Office of Special Plans.

Excellent post, explains the situation very well.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-20 18:35:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: scrapper2, ALL (#202)

a. scrapper: If you believe that the Germans defeated the Russians in WW II

BAC: I don't believe that. Didn't say it. Didn't suggest it. Just another scrapper strawman. The Soviets defeated the Germans. BUT, in large part thanks to the help of the US. Had the US not provided that help ...

scrapper: a. Liar. This is what you said in post #169:

BAC: "Forget the Soviets. They are gone in your alternate world. The Germans defeated them using technology that even the US didn't have at the end of WW2."

Gee, scrapper. Did you fail to understand the word "alternate"?

b. scrapper; Hitler suffered his greatest military setback of the war in the summer of 1944.

BAC: Almost three years after the US entered the war.

scrapper: b. What does one have to do with the other? The Russian army was singlehandedly responsible for the German defeat in the summer of 1944. The US military was not in Russia. In case you were not aware of this, BAC, the Russians had the largest standing army in the world as of 1941.

The only reason the Soviets were even capable of resisting the Germans at that point was the massive amounts of US aid (remember? 450,000 trucks. Enough food to feed the entire Soviat army over the course of the war. Railroad equipment. Etc.) they'd received in the intervening years. Plus, they were aided by the diversion of large portions of the German military machine elsewhere to defend against attacks by, primarily, the US.

BAC: c. I'm glad you recognize that the Lend/Lease fueled Stalin's war machine. Without it Hitler's Germany would have won. Then what?

scrapper: c. I never denied that the lend lease program fueled Stalin's war machine.

Good. Just as I said. I'm glad you recognize that.

FDR condemned millions upon millions of Eastern Europeans to servitude under communism or to immediate death in the gulags. And to that you say nothing - you don't care, and it's transparently clear why.

And YOU, had you been President and not brought us into the war, would have condemned even greater millions to NAZI servitude or immediate death in NAZI run ovens.

If we had stayed out of the war, the 2 monster isms would have finished each other off

That's not what would have happened. The Germans would very likely have won. If for no other reason then that they had most of the rocket and jet fighter scientists.

There was zero chance that Hitler would invade Britain after he lost the Battle of Britain.

You know that old saying. If at first you don't succeed ...

Hitler didn't get his weapons re-armament plans implemeneted by Speer until 1943, for God's sake. Britain was way ahead of Germany in that regard.

You can't build anything if you don't get the materials. You can't run engines if you don't have the oil. And without us in the war, the Island of Britain would have been starved out of both. It was a near thing as it was. Do you know that in 1940 (before we even entered the war), the British requested and received 50 destroyers? Even before entering the war officially, American warships were escorting Allied convoys as far as Iceland. In January of 1942 five (5) Type IX U boats sailed the shores of the US. In the next 3 weeks they sank 156,000 tons of shipping without losing a single U boat. In six months those few U boats sank 397 ships (2 MILLION tons). And it was US shipping yards that replaced the losses. And it was US ships that defended the convoys. Even with US help it was near thing. In October of 1942 alone, with everything America could do to stop the U boats, they sank 56 ship (258,000 tons). Without US participation, Germany would have starved out Britain in no time as more and more U boats were produced.

d. d. scrapper: Diana is right - that the "will" of the Iraqi insurgents will ultimately overcome the technology of the foreign occupier.

BAC: Well I see you are rooting for their side. Too bad we have folks like you and those in the mainstream media doing everything possible (since almost day one) to weaken OUR will. Given that, whose side are you on?

scrapper: d. I support the troops by wanting them to come home asap.

But won't the WOT still be going on? Won't troops just have to die elsewhere to fight it? Perhaps in locales where they can't exercise as much freedom to use the weapons they have? Do you think bringing our troops home will stop the WOT? Won't instability in Iraq make terrorists groups like al-Qaeda, and terrorist supporting nations like Iran and Syria stronger? Won't instability in Iraq weaken our allies in the WOT in the region? Does a perceived defeat make us weaker in general? What, historically, have islamic countries done when they see weakness? How do the Chinese perceive weakness?

Btw, don't you dare bad mouth or raise any cheesy questions my patriotism

But if as you say, WILL is everything, then doesn't anything that harms our will hurt us? Doesn't anything that strengthens our opponents will hurt us?

AEI

I'm curious what you mean by AEI.

As for will, the Iraqis have it because it's their country. They - the insurgents - or as war mongers like yourself like to label Iraqi citizens "the enemy" are planning to fight the foreign occupier to the last man - get it - they have legitimacy on their side - it's their country, not ours, not Israel's, not Haliburton's, not Exxon's.

So you think the insurgents that have brutally murdered tens of thousand of Iraqi civilians are "patriots". I see.

We were not invited to invade and occupy Iraq by the Iraqis.

Bet you if they'd had a secret referendum on the matter the "invade us option" would have won hands down.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-20 22:08:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 202.

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