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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad
Source: www.weeklystandard.com
URL Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte ... icles/000/000/013/416urcoa.asp
Published: Mar 17, 2007
Author: William Kristol
Post Date: 2007-03-17 20:20:21 by BeAChooser
Keywords: None
Views: 3421
Comments: 224

Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad

The surge is working--that's what matters.

by William Kristol

03/26/2007, Volume 012, Issue 27

In order to preserve the cosmic harmony, it seems the gods insist that good news in one place be offset by misfortune elsewhere. It may well be that Gen. David Petraeus is going to lead us to victory in Iraq. He is certainly off to a good start. If the karmic price of success in Iraq is utter embarrassment for senior Bush officials in Washington, D.C.--well, in our judgment, the trade-off is worth it. The world will surely note our success or failure in Iraq. It will not long remember the gang that couldn't shoot straight at the Justice Department--or, for that matter, the antics of congressional Democrats--unless either so weakens the administration as to undercut our mission in Iraq.

Obviously, it's too early to say anything more definitive than that there are real signs of progress in Baghdad. The cocksure defeatism of war critics of two months ago, when the surge was announced, does seem to have been misplaced. The latest Iraq Update (pdf) by Kimberly Kagan summarizes the early effects of the new strategy backed up by, as yet, just one additional U.S. brigade deployed in theater (with more to be added in the coming weeks):

This "rolling surge" focuses forces on a handful of neighborhoods in Baghdad, and attempts to expand security out from those neighborhoods. . . . A big advantage of a "rolling surge" is that the population and the enemy sense the continuous pressure of ever-increasing forces. Iraqis have not seen such a prolonged and continuous planned increase of U.S. forces before. . . . The continued, increasing presence of U.S. forces appears to be having an important psychological, as well as practical, effect on the enemy and the people of Iraq. . . . [Meanwhile] in Ramadi, in the belt south of Baghdad stretching from Yusifiyah to Salman Pak, and northeast in Diyala Province, . . . U.S. and Iraqi forces have deprived al Qaeda of the initiative.

This sense of momentum is confirmed by many other reports in the media, and from Americans and Iraqis on the ground.

But back in Washington, congressional Democrats are still mired in the fall of 2006 and seem determined to be as irresponsible as ever. They're being beaten back--in part thanks to the fighting spirit of stalwart congressional Republicans. Last week, the Senate defeated a resolution that would have restricted the use of U.S. troops in Iraq and set March 31, 2008, as a target date for removing U.S. forces from combat.

On the same day, on a mostly party-line vote, the House Appropriations Committee reported out the Democratic version of a supplemental appropriations bill for the war. It was an odd piece of legislation--an appropriation to fight a war replete with provisions intended to ensure we lose it.

Here's what the Democratic legislation does, according to the Washington Post: "Under the House bill, the Iraqi government would have to meet strict benchmarks. . . . If by July 1 the president could not certify any progress, U.S. troops would begin leaving Iraq, to be out before the end of this year. If Bush did certify progress, the Iraqi government would have until Oct. 1 to meet the benchmarks, or troops would begin withdrawing then. In any case, withdrawals would have to begin by March 1, 2008, and conclude by the end of that summer."

Got that? Oh yes, in addition to the arbitrary timelines for the removal of troops, there's pork. As the Post explains, "Included in the legislation is a lot of money to help win support. The price tag exceeds the president's war request by $24 billion." Some of the extra money goes to bail out spinach farmers hurt by E. coli, to pay for peanut storage, and to provide additional office space for the lawmakers themselves. So much for an emergency war appropriations bill.

The legislation may collapse on the floor of the House this week. It certainly deserves to. Republicans can insist on a clean supplemental--no timelines to reassure the enemy that if they just hang on, we'll be gone before long, and no pork. They can win this fight--and if they do, combined with progress in Iraq, the lasting news from March 2007 will not be Bush administration haplessness; it will be that we are on the way to success in Iraq.

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#66. To: hammerdown, ALL (#64)

for what, this?

*********

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530526.ece

From The Sunday Times

March 18, 2007

Resilient Iraqis ask what civil war?

Marie Colvin

DESPITE sectarian slaughter, ethnic cleansing and suicide bombs, an opinion poll conducted on the eve of the fourth anniversary of the US-led invasion of Iraq has found a striking resilience and optimism among the inhabitants.

The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003, shows that by a majority of two to one, Iraqis prefer the current leadership to Saddam Hussein’s regime, regardless of the security crisis and a lack of public services.

The survey, published today, also reveals that contrary to the views of many western analysts, most Iraqis do not believe they are embroiled in a civil war.

Officials in Washington and London are likely to be buoyed by the poll conducted by Opinion Research Business (ORB), a respected British market research company that funded its own survey of 5,019 Iraqis over the age of 18.

The 400 interviewers who fanned out across Iraq last month found that the sense of security felt by Baghdad residents had significantly improved since polling carried out before the US announced in January that it was sending in a “surge” of more than 20,000 extra troops.

The poll highlights the impact the sectarian violence has had. Some 26% of Iraqis - 15% of Sunnis and 34% of Shi’ites - have suffered the murder of a family member. Kidnapping has also played a terrifying role: 14% have had a relative, friend or colleague abducted, rising to 33% in Baghdad.

Yet 49% of those questioned preferred life under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, to living under Saddam. Only 26% said things had been better in Saddam’s era, while 16% said the two leaders were as bad as each other and the rest did not know or refused to answer.

Not surprisingly, the divisions in Iraqi society were reflected in statistics — Sunnis were more likely to back the previous Ba’athist regime (51%) while the Shi’ites (66%) preferred the Maliki government.

Maliki, who derives a significant element of his support from Moqtada al-Sadr, the hardline Shi’ite militant, and his Mahdi army, has begun trying to overcome criticism that his government favours the Shi’ites, going out of his way to be seen with Sunni tribal leaders. He is also under pressure from the US to include more Sunnis in an expected government reshuffle.

The poll suggests a significant increase in support for Maliki. A survey conducted by ORB in September last year found that only 29% of Iraqis had a favourable opinion of the prime minister.

Another surprise was that only 27% believed they were caught up in a civil war. Again, that number divided along religious lines, with 41% of Sunnis believing Iraq was in a civil war, compared with only 15% of Shi’ites.

The survey is a rare snapshot of Iraqi opinion because of the difficulty of working in the country, with the exception of Kurdish areas which are run as an essentially autonomous province.

Most international organisations have pulled out of Iraq and diplomats are mostly holed-up in the Green Zone. The unexpected degree of optimism may signal a groundswell of hope at signs the American “surge” is starting to take effect.

This weekend comments from Baghdad residents reflected the poll’s findings. Many said they were starting to feel more secure on the streets, although horrific bombings have continued. “The Americans have checkpoints and the most important thing is they don’t ask for ID, whether you are Sunni or Shi’ite,” said one resident. “There are no more fake checkpoints so you don’t need to be scared.”

The inhabitants of a northern Baghdad district were heartened to see on the concrete blocks protecting an Iraqi army checkpoint the lettering: “Down, down with the militias, we are fighting for the sake of Iraq.”

It would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago. Residents said they noted that armed militias were off the streets.

One question showed the sharp divide in attitudes towards the continued presence of foreign troops in Iraq. Some 53% of Iraqis nationwide agree that the security situation will improve in the weeks after a withdrawal by international forces, while only 26% think it will get worse.

“We’ve been polling in Iraq since 2005 and the finding that most surprised us was how many Iraqis expressed support for the present government,” said Johnny Heald, managing director of ORB. “Given the level of violence in Iraq, it shows an unexpected level of optimism.”

Despite the sectarian divide, 64% of Iraqis still want to see a united Iraq under a central national government.

One statistic that bodes ill for Iraq’s future is the number who have fled the country, many of them middle-class professionals. Baghdad has been hard hit by the brain drain — 35% said a family member had left the country.

Additional reporting: Ali Rifat

ORB interviewed a nationally representative sample of 5,019 Iraqi adults between February 10-22. The margin of error was +/- 1.4%.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   1:06:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: BeAChooser (#66)

Despite the sectarian divide, 64% of Iraqis still want to see a united Iraq under a central national government.

And you took this poll yourself, creep?

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-18   1:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Dakmar, ALL (#67)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece

From The Sunday Times

March 18, 2007

Iraqis: life is getting better

Marie Colvin

MOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.

The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.

Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.

By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias. More than half say security will improve after a withdrawal of multinational forces.

Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, said the findings pointed to progress. “There is no widespread violence in the four southern provinces and the fact that the picture is more complex than the stereotype usually portrayed is reflected in today’s poll,” she said.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   1:12:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: BeAChooser (#0)

I've avoided this thread all day because I sniffed my screen and it smelled of Billy Kristol. Sure enough...neocon revisionism and disinformation. It's kinda fun to read, sorta like old Nazi propaganda. I took a course in college on Goebbels, and the most fun part of it was the newspaper reports from the Eastern Front, with glorious victories at every turn, grateful Russians flocking to join the German army, 17 year-old heros taking out whole divisions of craven Russians...it was a real trip.

The next week, we had films of what was really going on. The German people must have noticed that hundreds of thousands went to Russia, and none came back. But they chose to believe Goebbels.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-03-18   1:19:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: BeAChooser (#25)

Again, can you find the posts where I wrote of the bombs placed in the WTC?

Can you show us the posts where you've challenged the bombs in the WTC assertions? You've certainly been on enough threads where this was being discussed to have done so by now. So can you?

In other words, from the above post you answered me with, you looked back for such posts and to your consternation you found that I have written nothing on the topic of bombs in the buildings.

That should teach you not to make assumptions or accusations without really checking first.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   1:19:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: BeAChooser (#68)

By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

That one's a real knee-slapper. Thanks, BAC.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-03-18   1:20:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: BeAChooser (#52)

for what? allowing you to be deluded in nationalism? ever heard of Philip Giraldi?

Philip Giraldi from Cannistraro Associates has a column in the April 24 (print) edition of The American Conservative magazine about the story surrounding Sibel Edmonds.

According to Sibel, (no link, via email), this is "a fantastic short piece by Phil Giraldi; it sums up the case very well, considering the length... as far as published articles go, this one nails it 100%"

I've liberated the article from print (errors are mine):

---------------------------------

Sibel Edmonds, the Turkish FBI translator turned whistleblower who has been subjected to a gag order could provide a major insight into how neoconservatives distort US foreign policy and enrich themselves at the same time. On one level, her story appears straightforward: several Turkish lobbying groups allegedly bribed congressmen to support policies favourable to Ankara. But beyond that, the Edmonds revelations become more serpentine and appear to involve AIPAC, Israel and a number of leading neoconservatives who have profited from the Turkish connection. Israel has long cultivated a close relationship with Turkey since Ankara's neighbours and historic enemies - Iran, Syria and Iraq - are also hostile to Tel Aviv. Islamic Turkey has also had considerable symbolic value for Israel, demonstrating that hostility to Muslim neighbours is not a sine qua non for the Jewish state.

Turkey benefits from the relationship by securing general benevolence and increased aid from the US Congress - as well as access to otherwise unattainable military technology. The Turkish General Staff has a particular interest because much of the military spending is channeled through companies in which the generals have a financial stake, making for a very cozy and comfortable business arrangement. The commercial interest has also fostered close political ties, with the American Turkish Council, American Turkish Cultural Alliance and the Assembly of Turkish American Associations all developing warm relationships with AIPAC and other Jewish and Israel advocacy groups throughout the US.

Someone has to be in the middle to keep the happy affair going, so enter the neocons, intent on securing Israel against all comers and also keen to turn a dollar. In fact the neocons seem to have a deep and abiding interest in Turkey, which, under other circumstances, might be difficult to explain. Doug Feith's International Advisors Inc, a registered agent for Turkey in 1989 - 1994, netted $600,000 per year from Turkey, with Richard Perle taking $48,000 annually as a consultant. Other noted neoconservatives linked to Turkey are former State Department number three, Marc Grossman, current Pentagon Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Eric Edelman, Paul Wolfowitz and former congressman Stephen Solarz. The money involved does not appear to come from the Turkish government, and FBI investigators are trying to determine its source and how it is distributed. Some of it may come from criminal activity, possibly drug trafficking, but much more might come from arms dealing. Contracts in the hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars provide considerable fat for those well placed to benefit. Investigators are also looking at Israel's particular expertise in the illegal sale of US military technology to countries like China and India. Fraudulent end-user certificates produced by Defense Ministries in Israel and Turkey are all that is needed to divert military technology to other, less benign, consumers. The military-industrial-complex/neocon network is also well attested. Doug Feith has been associated with Northrup Grumman for years, while defense contractors fund many neocon-linked think tanks and "information" services. Feith, Perle and a number of other neocons have long had beneficial relationships with various Israeli defense contractors.

of course not. like Ray McGovern, Larry Johnson and Karen Kwiatkowski and many other former agency/military whistleblowers, you ignore them. learn something, tool.

hammerdown  posted on  2007-03-18   1:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: BeAChooser (#68)

Marie Colvin

This Marie Colvin?

How Saddam's Agents Targeted Al-Jazeera - FrontPageMagazine, May 12, 2003

Are you insane? Nevermind, you've already answered that question.

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-18   1:24:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: BeAChooser (#66)

The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003

so now you grasp at "polls" for your validation. marvelous.
spoken like a true clintonian.
pmlol!

hammerdown  posted on  2007-03-18   1:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: BeAChooser (#25)

Can you show us the posts where you've challenged the bombs in the WTC assertions? You've certainly been on enough threads where this was being discussed to have done so by now. So can you?

Bait and switch, bob and weave...

It just so happens the topic of bombs is one that went by me.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   1:28:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: hammerdown (#74)

A "projectible" poll of 5,019 Iraqis...hahahahahaha. Like they can even think of getting a cross-section in a country where power barely runs, phones rarely work, and most people would rather DIE than tell an anonymous voice, who may be a terrorist, what they really think.

This was probably conducted with green zone employees, with a few Marines hanging around looking threatening.

Job with shortest lifespan: Door to door canvasser in Iraq.

Well, whattaya know, Marie, that one nearly made it to the end of the block.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-03-18   1:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Mekons4 (#76)

siwwy wabbit, polls are for statists. huhhuhhuhhuh. ; )

hammerdown  posted on  2007-03-18   1:39:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: BeAChooser (#26)

I simply said to ingest it causes health problems You've done more than that, Diana.

One need only read this thread

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=47761&SC=1&EC=40#C1

to see that.

Uh DUH....

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   1:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: hammerdown, Mekons4, BeAChooser, robin, Marie Colvin (#77)

I want BAC to tell us more about Iraqi National Congress.

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-18   1:43:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Dakmar, Jethro Tull, BeAChooser (#28)

LOL, you get a +2 for prentending BAC is human.

I like to think he is human, I really do, but sometimes I get to thinking he has a cold heart, maybe he is one of those lizard people David Ickes talks about.

I don't know what to make of such a person.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   1:44:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Dakmar, Mekons4, BeAChooser (#73)

This Marie Colvin?

How Saddam's Agents Targeted Al-Jazeera - FrontPageMagazine, May 12, 2003

Are you insane? Nevermind, you've already answered that question.

Good find, Dakmar! HAHAHAHAHA. BeAChooser, since Marie speaks so favorably of conditions in Iraq, are you thinking of spending summer vacation this year at the Baghdad Hotel? Oh please say yes...

scrapper2  posted on  2007-03-18   1:44:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Diana (#80)

I think I just proved he works for Chalabi. :)

If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost

Dakmar  posted on  2007-03-18   1:49:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: scrapper2 (#81)

. are you thinking of spending summer vacation this year at the Baghdad Hotel?

I'll toss in a free "Bring 'em on" Tshirt.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-03-18   1:54:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Dakmar (#82)

"BAC, Are you Human?"

That sounds like the title of a song from a John Water's movie.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   1:57:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: scrapper2 (#39)

Substitute the words "gulag" for "concentration camp" and "Christian" for Jews" and you get the picture.

Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.

Brilliant post scrapper.

All too true.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   2:23:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: BeAChooser, hammerdown, All (#52)

HE has my respect.

You're incapable of having "respect" for anybody.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   2:26:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: BeAChooser (#65)

Like telling audiences that he is a health physicist when, in fact, he is not?

Well here's what Dr. Rokke has to say about DU.

Dr. Doug Rokke Address on Depleted Uranium

He says that he SERVED for the US Army as a health physicist. Do you have any evidence that he didn't?

Regardless, it doesn't remove the transuranics from the DU the military is using as ammunition, does it.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-03-18   2:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: BeAChooser, FormerLurker (#65)

Like telling audiences that he is a health physicist when, in fact, he is not?

Not that again.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   2:45:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: FormerLurker (#65)

Just in case you don't know, BAC is on this kick that only "health physicists" are capable of knowing the effects of DU on humans.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   2:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Diana (#89)

Just in case you don't know, BAC is on this kick that only "health physicists" are capable of knowing the effects of DU on humans.

He's trying to say that Dr. Rokke is not a health physicist, so that makes anything that Dr. Rokke says less than credible. He always finds a way to discredit those that he likes to silence, well, almost always.. :)

Regardless of Dr. Rokke's background, it doesn't change the fact that DU is in itself a radioactive material that can inflict DNA and celluar damage if inhaled, along with various other insidious effects due to its chemical toxicity. Add the highly radioactive transuranic contaminants, and you have a potent poison that can damage not only the people that have absorbed it, but their offspring in the way of horrendous birth defects.

As far as Dr. Rokke, BAC has never demonstrated that he did NOT serve as a health physicist for the US Army. Judging from what Dr. Rokke has said concerning DU, I can see why BAC would like to shut him up..


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-03-18   2:57:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Diana (#89)

He was good enough for the U.S.Army to originate their decontamination procedure, but not good enough for WhatALoser to be credible. ok, I get it.

hammerdown  posted on  2007-03-18   3:13:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Diana (#89)

and he prefers analysis from the U.N. and other international bankster grant-paid "scientists" instead? uh huh.

hammerdown  posted on  2007-03-18   3:17:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: FormerLurker, hammerdown (#90)

He's trying to say that Dr. Rokke is not a health physicist, so that makes anything that Dr. Rokke says less than credible.

Right, that is how he works.

He makes his own rules as he goes along, such as saying only health physicists are capable of knowing about DU, so that makes anyone else wrong, even those who are experts in the field.

No one can ever win an argument with BAC because he operates on different principles than everyone else.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   4:20:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: hammerdown (#92)

He's like a 3 year old in that he thinks he can get away with his lies and distortions which are very obvious to all.

He gets angry when I point that out which I do from time to time.

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   4:24:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2, hammerdown, FormerLurker, robin, All (#68) (Edited)

The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.

Take a look at this:

In Iraq there is a second structural imperative for the violence, equally compelling, though much less candid. Despite public utterances, there is good reason to think that one of the goals of the US occupation has been the political dismemberment of the country.

The notion of a federal structure had been agreed at the London conference before the invasion took place under the guiding hand of current US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzid. The idea has been repeatedly endorsed in the pages of the New York Times (25 November 2003, 1 May 2006) by president emeritus of the Council for Foreign Affairs, Leslie H Gelb, a guru of US imperial strategy. A sectarian framework was superimposed on the new Iraqi state from the outset of the occupation, with political representatives made to take their place within government according to their language, religion, sect and ethnicity rather than by political programmes.

Most importantly, the US installed as National Security Advisor (probably the most senior Iraqi military post in the land) Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a dedicated champion of partition, who has contemplated as many as six statelets within a loose federal structure. Now, with the growing backing of powerful political figures in the US such as leading Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Joseph R Biden Jr and the de facto endorsement of the outgoing British ambassador, the break-up of Iraq seems close at hand.

With Iraq holding the second-largest proven oil reserves in the world, it’s not hard to see why three fractionalized polities might appear a more desirable outcome than a strong, centralized Iraqi state.

Very interesting read: http://www.brusselstr ibunal.org/FullerJadiriyah.htm

Diana  posted on  2007-03-18   8:52:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: BeAChooser (#0)

He is certainly off to a good start.

Indeed. March 2007 is already the bloodiest March ever since the invasion as afar as US casualties is concerned. But the f___ing zionazi traitor couldn't care less about such small details.

Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'

a vast rightwing conspirator  posted on  2007-03-18   9:03:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Diana, ALL (#70)

Again, can you find the posts where I wrote of the bombs placed in the WTC?

"Can you show us the posts where you've challenged the bombs in the WTC assertions? You've certainly been on enough threads where this was being discussed to have done so by now. So can you?"

In other words, from the above post you answered me with, you looked back for such posts and to your consternation you found that I have written nothing on the topic of bombs in the buildings.

Oh. Maybe I just misinterpreted what you wrote here:

********

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=45537&Disp=All[

BeAChooser - Currently, only one demolition expert in the world agrees with Griffin that Building 7 was a controlled demolition.

Diana - Actually there are probably many others, but they dare not speak out as they value their lives and those of their families.

*******

Then there was our conversation on the following thread

*************

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=46290&Disp=All&#C231

starting at post #37.

BeAChooser to Jethro Tull - Give us the name of ONE structural engineer at BYU who supports Jone's theory. JUST ONE. Surely you can.

Diana to BeAChooser in response to that statement - You've just proven your blatant dishonesty or ignorance or nacisissism or all combined by attacking the credentials of these scientists.

BeAChooser to Jethro Tull - The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones.

Diana to BeAChooser in response to that statement - Of course they don't, they don't want to lose their funding!

*********

Try to convince us, Diana, that in the above you weren't defending the notion of bombs in the WTC towers. Because that's Jones' theory. That's the theory of the experts whose credentials I was criticizing. That's the theory of those on that thread you joined in to defend.

I tell you what, Diana. I've give you a chance here and now to tell us you do NOT believe in the WTC bomb theories. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Or do you want to rest your defense on parsing your statements like Clinton?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   13:58:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: hammerdown, ALL (#74)

"The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003"

so now you grasp at "polls" for your validation. marvelous.

Why not. Polls are all you folks have been grasping at all along.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:01:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Diana, ALL (#75)

It just so happens the topic of bombs is one that went by me.

Your not being honest, Diana. As the post above proves. I'm disappointed in you.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:01:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: BeAChooser (#99)

Your not being honest, Diana. As the post above proves. I'm disappointed in you.

And we're ALL disappointed in you Ooser. We thought we'd get a better shill to bounce around, but you're rather inept and pathetic.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-03-18   14:03:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Mekons4, ALL (#76)

This was probably conducted with green zone employees, with a few Marines hanging around looking threatening.

Isn't it amazing how many of you 4umers swear by a poll conducted by researchers who ADMITTED they dislike Bush and the war and who admitted that the people who conducted their survey HATE Americans? ROTFLOL!

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:04:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Diana, ALL (#80)

maybe he is one of those lizard people David Ickes talks about.

You know Diana ... I really am trying to be civil with you. But you are making that hard.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:06:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Diana, scrapper2, ALL (#85)

Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.

Brilliant post scrapper.

You think so? Is the Soviet Union still around?

And I'm curious. If we'd not gotten involved in WW2, who do you two think would have walked away the big winners?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:09:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: BeAChooser (#101)

Your floor must be all shiny and polished with all the time you spend rolling on it LOL. Maybe if you permeate your clothes with floorwax....

Mekons4  posted on  2007-03-18   14:09:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Diana, ALL (#86)

You're incapable of having "respect" for anybody.

I'm trying to have respect for you. But you are making that difficult.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:09:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: FormerLurker, ALL (#87)

Dr. Doug Rokke Address on Depleted Uranium

He says that he SERVED for the US Army as a health physicist. Do you have any evidence that he didn't?

We've been over this numerous times before. Why do you pretend ignorance?

To begin with, Doug Rokke was NOT a health physicist. He has a degree in EDUCATION. His calling himself a "health physicist" is like a garbage man calling himself a sanitation engineer. Nor did he get a degree in physics per se. And certainly not nuclear physics. He LIED about his credentials.

*****************

http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html

Comments by Dr. Otto Raabe, Health Physicist, in regard to Doug Rokke

The following text was published on the Radsafe list. It is from Dr. Otto Raabe, former President of the Health Physics Society. Dr. Raabe has far more education and experience in Health Physics than Doug Rokke.

November 26, 2002 Davis, CA

Last night I went to hear Doug Rokke's performance at the Davis Community Church concerning the "poisoning of whole nations by the use of DU munitions by the U.S. military". In his talk Rokke made numerous technical errors concerning uranium toxicology and health physics including saying that a beta dose to the skin of 300 mrem exceeded the standard for whole body exposure. I strongly objected to his misrepresentation of the DU toxicology facts during the comment period. I think my objections fell on closed minds, however, since this was a cultist group of "peace activists" who think disarmament of our nation will lead to peace. Rokke's stated purpose is to get the U.S. to stop using some of our best field weapons that employ DU projectiles.

Rokke's performance was clever and polished. I think he has had professional drama coaching. Not since Helen Caldicott have I heard such masterful manipulation of the audience. He credited himself at every turn with being highly principled while always casting the U.S. military as nefarious and cold-blooded. He claimed he was fired by the government because of his dedication to health and safety.

Much of his talk involved references to toxic chemicals released by our military action in the Gulf War, contaminated food provided by the Saudis, and claimed poisoning of people by DU dust. He said he was a "health physicist" (BAC - which proves Rokke is the ultimate source of the lies identified in this post) and implied that he had a Ph.D. in physics by reference to being in his "physics lab" while working on his doctorate. Actually, his doctorate is in "Education Methodology", which I got him to admit during the questioning. He is certainly not a qualified health physicist. According to reliable sources, he is currently a substitute teacher in a middle school in Urbana, Illinois, and a director of a children's camp in the summers (BAC - this pro-Rokke source, http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03.htm, confirms that).

Rokke said that in the Gulf War he was the "Director of the Army Depleted Uranium Project," and that virtually everyone who worked on the project was sick from exposure to DU. The diseases and ailments that he claimed for DU conflict with 50 years of research on DU toxicology and with the findings of the Department Defence who are carefully evaluating military personnel who were exposed to high levels of airborne DU aerosols. See http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii

Unfortunately, the audience of about 100 people were enthralled with Rokke and angry with me for objecting to his erroneous statements and misrepresentation, but I think it was important to cast some doubt on this charlatans's proclamations.

Otto

Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D. CHP
Center for Health and the Environment
University of California, Davis, CA 95616

*****************

And he LIED about his role in Iraq.

*************

http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html

30 Dead or Zero Dead?

Military Spokesman Contradicts Fatalities Claim by Doug Rokke

I recently received an email (indirectly) from a military source having the following email address: (special.assistant@deploymenthealth.osd.mil)

The gist of the email is that Doug Rokke's claims about the health effects in members of his gulf war clean up team are not accurate. I decided to see what I could find on the Internet about those claims before posting this government response. The most common claim, attributed to Doug Rokke, is that 30 members of his "100 member team" have died, with the implication being that the death was from depleted uranium. Here is a typical quote where the information seems to come from Doug Rokke. This article is by Larry Johnson in the Seattle Post - Intelligencer but it is certainly not the only one as there appear to be dozens of similar texts on the Internet:

"Rokke and his primary team of about 100 performed their cleanup task without any specialized training or protective gear. Today, Rokke said, at least 30 members of the team are dead, and most of the others -- including Rokke -- have serious health problems".

... snip ...

.........................................................

The following information from the military "Special Assistant on Deployment Health" paints a quite different picture. Unless Rokke can come up with the names of most of the 30 who he alleges have died, I will have to believe the government information, rather than Rokke's claim. Rokke seems to have exaggerated both his role and the number of people who have died since the cleanup. Here is the email from the official government source:

We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense. Following the ground war, Rokke was attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment. The team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM). Rokke's primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support. Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of "his team." These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.

In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on "his team." Staff members were able to interview 22 of them. Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on "his team" actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles. Two of the 29 had died, however, in interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium. While we respect Rokke's right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so. His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert. These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.

End of quote.

My comments: It seems that as of 1998, not a single member of the team had died of exposure to uranium, contrary to Rokke's claim. Before posting the above text, I contacted Doug Rokke and asked him to comment on this material. He refused to say anything in support of his earlier claim that 30 people had died from his organization and instead showed an intense desire to change the subject.

*******************

From this Australian government document:

House:Legislative Council Statement

Date Wednesday, 13 August 2003

... snip

Lancelin Defence Training Area

HON FRANK HOUGH (Agricultural) [5.39 pm]: In early July I was made aware of a brochure that was being circulated in Lancelin by the Greens (WA), which was titled “Depleted Uranium: The Silent Killer”. I listened to the Liam Bartlett show on the radio and heard people say that their property values had halved because the Americans were using bombs with uranium tips in Lancelin, which would contaminate the water. I obtained a copy of the brochure issued by Hon Dee Margetts. It states that Dr Doug Rokke, a United States expert on depleted uranium, visited Lancelin on 6 July 2003. It also states, in part -

"Dr Rokke was a major in the US Army and former head of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project, responsible for training US personnel in preparation for Gulf War I in terms of their exposure to environmental hazards including radiation. Dr Rokke holds a PhD in Philosophy and a Master of Science."

I was rather annoyed when I read that. It was obviously based on information the member received and not from either Senator Robert Hill or the United States Consul General in Perth, Oscar De Soto. I took the time to write to Oscar De Soto and Senator Robert Hill. My letter to the Consul General states, in part -

"I am writing to seek the Consulates assurance that the United States of America has not used and will not use Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions at the Lancelin Defence Training Area (LTDA) in Western Australia."

I received a reply from the Consul General this morning. It states -

QUOTE: "Thank you for your letter dated July 17 regarding Depleted Uranium . . . Firstly, let me make clear that the United States, as a matter of policy and practicality, does not use DU munitions at the Australian Lancelin Defence Forces range. DU munitions are seldom used in training anywhere because they are too costly to expend for training. Furthermore, the U.S. military uses the Lancelin Range only infrequently, and only by invitation of the Australian Government. When U.S. forces use the range, it is always jointly with Australia and in compliance with all Australian laws and environmental rules. The U.S. military utilizes Australian environmentalist planners on each and every use. Secondly, Dr. Doug Rokke has made exaggerated and untrue claims during his visit to Australia. Dr. Rokke has exaggerated his background. He is not, and has never been “the foremost U.S. military expert on DU,” as he was described in the June 18th Canberra Times. He is not a medical doctor. His Ph.D is in education. He earned a Ph.D in Science/Technology Education from the University of Illinois, Urbana in 1992."

If he was finishing his PhD in 1992 he was certainly not, as Hon Dee Margetts claims, running the Gulf War as a major in 1991. He was still at university. The letter continues -

QUOTE: "Dr. Rokke did not join the U.S. as a medical officer in 1967, as reported in the Canberra Times. He joined as an airman, an avionics technician. According to the Department of Defense, Dr. Rokke was not “in charge of cleaning up radioactive waste” after the 1991 Gulf War, as was described in a June 18th ABC broadcast. As a First Lieutenant, Dr. Rokke was assigned to the 12th Preventative Medical Detachment of the 330th Medical Brigade prior to and during the war. There were 66 people assigned to the unit; he was the most junior of 14 officers."

He was one level from being a gopher! He was a junior lieutenant. That is a long way from being a major. They have different pips. He may not have been able to distinguish them! The letter continues -

QUOTE: "Initially, he was responsible for conducting nuclear, biological and chemical training."

Hon Peter Foss: He sounds like a fraud.

Hon FRANK HOUGH: He does. Others sell snake oil. They get carried away. What is worse is that they get mixed up with the Greens (WA) and try to pull the wool over our eyes. I know I could go to America and become Surgeon General and an honorary brigadier and take people for a ride. The people in Lancelin should not be subject to charlatans who tell them their water is full of depleted uranium. The letter from the Consul General concludes -

QUOTE: "In closing, let me reiterate that the U.S. military does not use DU munitions in Lancelin. I urge you to share this information with your constituents and other Members of Parliament. . . . Yours sincerely, Oscar De Soto, Consul General of the United States of America"

I spoke to the consulate office this morning and I was guaranteed the information is very accurate. The consulate probably has a system linked with the Central Intelligence Agency to pull the records. The details of the letter were not made up overnight. The Consul General took three and a half weeks to research the situation. He was quite clear in determining the facts. Another part of the letter states -

QUOTE: "While Dr. Rokke presents himself as an expert, this does not make it so. His role in the 1991 Gulf War, at the US Army Chemical School, and his educational background do not qualify him as an expert on the purported health effects of depleted uranium. . . . It is important to make a clear-cut distinction between Dr. Rokke’s technical qualifications and those of certified medical health physicists who are qualified to assess the medical implications of radiation exposures."

The member should apologise to the people of Lancelin. She has been badly misinformed and badly misinformed them. She should write to the Consul General and apologise sincerely for having a go at the US Navy. We have enough problems with trying to establish relationships with other countries without having to deal with this type of rubbish. If she is not prepared to do that, she should enjoy life as something other than a parliamentarian. She is abdicating her responsibilities by putting out this type of rubbish and putting fear in the hearts of people who live in the broader community. This is one of the ploys that people work through. Another part of the letter states -

QUOTE: "Regarding allegations in the pamphlet that the U.S. Navy plans to establish a permanent base at Cockburn Sound in Western Australia as part of the Sea Swap program, I can confirm the United States has no plans to establish a base in Western Australia or anywhere else in Australia. The Australian Marine Complex at Cockburn Sound is a Western Australian public-private commercial project. If the U.S. Navy uses the Complex for maintenance, it will be on the same terms as any other customer. That Dr. Rokke’s baseless claims regarding DU are associated with the U.S. Navy’s activities in Western Australia appear aimed at provoking anxiety and perpetuating disinformation in the community."

I am extremely annoyed. I think I have contained myself very well. I have been rather humble and subtle in this because this type of rubbish has got to cease. People must not go to the broader community rumour mongering and making up stories for the betterment of their own. I often see the fairy-floss dancers on the sand hills at Lancelin at night dropping petals. I have people ringing me saying their house at Lancelin has halved in value. These are the people they appeal to. I hope my house at Lancelin has not halved in value, because I know who I will be chasing for the other half of the value. I believe the member might be getting a pay rise!

****************

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/0311/msg00401.html

Dear Editor:

I thought that you might want to correct some errors and false implications in your article, "Nuclear physicist to give presentation on weapons at Franklin College."

Doug Rokke is a retired U.S. Army Reserve major. He did not retire from the Regular Army. He is not old enough to collect his Army Reserve retirement pay.

He is not a nuclear physicist and he is not a health physicist. He is occasionally employed as a substitute teacher. It appears his primary function is to travel around the world getting paid for speaking against depleted uranium.

He was not a director of the U.S. Army depleted-uranium project. No such project with that name ever existed. In addition, he was not a director of anything else as far as I know.

He is a Gulf War veteran, not a Gulf War combat veteran. He was never involved in combat.

As background information, I am a nuclear physicist and a health physicist, have been a director, am retired from the Regular Army, and was in combat in Vietnam. I do not consider Rokke my peer in any of those areas.

I realize that you were passing on information given to you to publicize the event. Hopefully, my corrections will indicate that the speaker has an agenda that tends to ignore the facts.

Robert Cherry, Ph.D Certified Health Physicist Colonel, U.S. Army (retired)

*************

He LIED, FormerLurker. About virtually everything.

But you insist on believing him. On citing him as an expert.

What does that say about you?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-03-18   14:26:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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