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Title: Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad
Source:
www.weeklystandard.com
URL Source: http://www.weeklystandard.com/Conte ... icles/000/000/013/416urcoa.asp
Published: Mar 17, 2007
Author: William Kristol
Post Date: 2007-03-17 20:20:21 by BeAChooser
Keywords: None
Views: 3408
Comments: 224
Idiocy in D.C., Progress in Baghdad The surge is working--that's what matters. by William Kristol 03/26/2007, Volume 012, Issue 27 In order to preserve the cosmic harmony, it seems the gods insist that good news in one place be offset by misfortune elsewhere. It may well be that Gen. David Petraeus is going to lead us to victory in Iraq. He is certainly off to a good start. If the karmic price of success in Iraq is utter embarrassment for senior Bush officials in Washington, D.C.--well, in our judgment, the trade-off is worth it. The world will surely note our success or failure in Iraq. It will not long remember the gang that couldn't shoot straight at the Justice Department--or, for that matter, the antics of congressional Democrats--unless either so weakens the administration as to undercut our mission in Iraq. Obviously, it's too early to say anything more definitive than that there are real signs of progress in Baghdad. The cocksure defeatism of war critics of two months ago, when the surge was announced, does seem to have been misplaced. The latest Iraq Update (pdf) by Kimberly Kagan summarizes the early effects of the new strategy backed up by, as yet, just one additional U.S. brigade deployed in theater (with more to be added in the coming weeks): This "rolling surge" focuses forces on a handful of neighborhoods in Baghdad, and attempts to expand security out from those neighborhoods. . . . A big advantage of a "rolling surge" is that the population and the enemy sense the continuous pressure of ever-increasing forces. Iraqis have not seen such a prolonged and continuous planned increase of U.S. forces before. . . . The continued, increasing presence of U.S. forces appears to be having an important psychological, as well as practical, effect on the enemy and the people of Iraq. . . . [Meanwhile] in Ramadi, in the belt south of Baghdad stretching from Yusifiyah to Salman Pak, and northeast in Diyala Province, . . . U.S. and Iraqi forces have deprived al Qaeda of the initiative. This sense of momentum is confirmed by many other reports in the media, and from Americans and Iraqis on the ground. But back in Washington, congressional Democrats are still mired in the fall of 2006 and seem determined to be as irresponsible as ever. They're being beaten back--in part thanks to the fighting spirit of stalwart congressional Republicans. Last week, the Senate defeated a resolution that would have restricted the use of U.S. troops in Iraq and set March 31, 2008, as a target date for removing U.S. forces from combat. On the same day, on a mostly party-line vote, the House Appropriations Committee reported out the Democratic version of a supplemental appropriations bill for the war. It was an odd piece of legislation--an appropriation to fight a war replete with provisions intended to ensure we lose it. Here's what the Democratic legislation does, according to the Washington Post: "Under the House bill, the Iraqi government would have to meet strict benchmarks. . . . If by July 1 the president could not certify any progress, U.S. troops would begin leaving Iraq, to be out before the end of this year. If Bush did certify progress, the Iraqi government would have until Oct. 1 to meet the benchmarks, or troops would begin withdrawing then. In any case, withdrawals would have to begin by March 1, 2008, and conclude by the end of that summer." Got that? Oh yes, in addition to the arbitrary timelines for the removal of troops, there's pork. As the Post explains, "Included in the legislation is a lot of money to help win support. The price tag exceeds the president's war request by $24 billion." Some of the extra money goes to bail out spinach farmers hurt by E. coli, to pay for peanut storage, and to provide additional office space for the lawmakers themselves. So much for an emergency war appropriations bill. The legislation may collapse on the floor of the House this week. It certainly deserves to. Republicans can insist on a clean supplemental--no timelines to reassure the enemy that if they just hang on, we'll be gone before long, and no pork. They can win this fight--and if they do, combined with progress in Iraq, the lasting news from March 2007 will not be Bush administration haplessness; it will be that we are on the way to success in Iraq.
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#78. To: BeAChooser (#26)
One need only read this thread http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=47761&SC=1&EC=40#C1 to see that. Uh DUH....
I want BAC to tell us more about Iraqi National Congress.
If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost
I like to think he is human, I really do, but sometimes I get to thinking he has a cold heart, maybe he is one of those lizard people David Ickes talks about. I don't know what to make of such a person.
How Saddam's Agents Targeted Al-Jazeera - FrontPageMagazine, May 12, 2003 Are you insane? Nevermind, you've already answered that question. Good find, Dakmar! HAHAHAHAHA. BeAChooser, since Marie speaks so favorably of conditions in Iraq, are you thinking of spending summer vacation this year at the Baghdad Hotel? Oh please say yes...
I think I just proved he works for Chalabi. :)
If you look carefully at my lips, you'll realize that I'm actually saying something else. I'm not actually telling you about the several ways I'm gradually murdering Joan. - Tom Frost
I'll toss in a free "Bring 'em on" Tshirt.
"BAC, Are you Human?" That sounds like the title of a song from a John Water's movie.
Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II. Brilliant post scrapper. All too true.
You're incapable of having "respect" for anybody.
Well here's what Dr. Rokke has to say about DU. Dr. Doug Rokke Address on Depleted Uranium He says that he SERVED for the US Army as a health physicist. Do you have any evidence that he didn't? Regardless, it doesn't remove the transuranics from the DU the military is using as ammunition, does it.
Not that again.
Just in case you don't know, BAC is on this kick that only "health physicists" are capable of knowing the effects of DU on humans.
He's trying to say that Dr. Rokke is not a health physicist, so that makes anything that Dr. Rokke says less than credible. He always finds a way to discredit those that he likes to silence, well, almost always.. :) Regardless of Dr. Rokke's background, it doesn't change the fact that DU is in itself a radioactive material that can inflict DNA and celluar damage if inhaled, along with various other insidious effects due to its chemical toxicity. Add the highly radioactive transuranic contaminants, and you have a potent poison that can damage not only the people that have absorbed it, but their offspring in the way of horrendous birth defects. As far as Dr. Rokke, BAC has never demonstrated that he did NOT serve as a health physicist for the US Army. Judging from what Dr. Rokke has said concerning DU, I can see why BAC would like to shut him up..
He was good enough for the U.S.Army to originate their decontamination procedure, but not good enough for WhatALoser to be credible. ok, I get it.
and he prefers analysis from the U.N. and other international bankster grant-paid "scientists" instead? uh huh.
Right, that is how he works. He makes his own rules as he goes along, such as saying only health physicists are capable of knowing about DU, so that makes anyone else wrong, even those who are experts in the field. No one can ever win an argument with BAC because he operates on different principles than everyone else.
He's like a 3 year old in that he thinks he can get away with his lies and distortions which are very obvious to all. He gets angry when I point that out which I do from time to time.
Take a look at this: In Iraq there is a second structural imperative for the violence, equally compelling, though much less candid. Despite public utterances, there is good reason to think that one of the goals of the US occupation has been the political dismemberment of the country. The notion of a federal structure had been agreed at the London conference before the invasion took place under the guiding hand of current US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzid. The idea has been repeatedly endorsed in the pages of the New York Times (25 November 2003, 1 May 2006) by president emeritus of the Council for Foreign Affairs, Leslie H Gelb, a guru of US imperial strategy. A sectarian framework was superimposed on the new Iraqi state from the outset of the occupation, with political representatives made to take their place within government according to their language, religion, sect and ethnicity rather than by political programmes. Most importantly, the US installed as National Security Advisor (probably the most senior Iraqi military post in the land) Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a dedicated champion of partition, who has contemplated as many as six statelets within a loose federal structure. Now, with the growing backing of powerful political figures in the US such as leading Democrat foreign affairs spokesman Joseph R Biden Jr and the de facto endorsement of the outgoing British ambassador, the break-up of Iraq seems close at hand. With Iraq holding the second-largest proven oil reserves in the world, it’s not hard to see why three fractionalized polities might appear a more desirable outcome than a strong, centralized Iraqi state. Very interesting read: http://www.brusselstr ibunal.org/FullerJadiriyah.htm
Indeed. March 2007 is already the bloodiest March ever since the invasion as afar as US casualties is concerned. But the f___ing zionazi traitor couldn't care less about such small details.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
Oh. Maybe I just misinterpreted what you wrote here: ******** http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=45537&Disp=All[ BeAChooser - Currently, only one demolition expert in the world agrees with Griffin that Building 7 was a controlled demolition. Diana - Actually there are probably many others, but they dare not speak out as they value their lives and those of their families. ******* Then there was our conversation on the following thread ************* http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=46290&Disp=All&#C231 starting at post #37. BeAChooser to Jethro Tull - Give us the name of ONE structural engineer at BYU who supports Jone's theory. JUST ONE. Surely you can. Diana to BeAChooser in response to that statement - You've just proven your blatant dishonesty or ignorance or nacisissism or all combined by attacking the credentials of these scientists. BeAChooser to Jethro Tull - The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones. Diana to BeAChooser in response to that statement - Of course they don't, they don't want to lose their funding! ********* Try to convince us, Diana, that in the above you weren't defending the notion of bombs in the WTC towers. Because that's Jones' theory. That's the theory of the experts whose credentials I was criticizing. That's the theory of those on that thread you joined in to defend. I tell you what, Diana. I've give you a chance here and now to tell us you do NOT believe in the WTC bomb theories. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Or do you want to rest your defense on parsing your statements like Clinton?
Why not. Polls are all you folks have been grasping at all along.
Your not being honest, Diana. As the post above proves. I'm disappointed in you.
And we're ALL disappointed in you Ooser. We thought we'd get a better shill to bounce around, but you're rather inept and pathetic.
Isn't it amazing how many of you 4umers swear by a poll conducted by researchers who ADMITTED they dislike Bush and the war and who admitted that the people who conducted their survey HATE Americans? ROTFLOL!
You know Diana ... I really am trying to be civil with you. But you are making that hard.
You think so? Is the Soviet Union still around? And I'm curious. If we'd not gotten involved in WW2, who do you two think would have walked away the big winners?
Your floor must be all shiny and polished with all the time you spend rolling on it LOL. Maybe if you permeate your clothes with floorwax....
I'm trying to have respect for you. But you are making that difficult.
We've been over this numerous times before. Why do you pretend ignorance? To begin with, Doug Rokke was NOT a health physicist. He has a degree in EDUCATION. His calling himself a "health physicist" is like a garbage man calling himself a sanitation engineer. Nor did he get a degree in physics per se. And certainly not nuclear physics. He LIED about his credentials. ***************** http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html Comments by Dr. Otto Raabe, Health Physicist, in regard to Doug Rokke The following text was published on the Radsafe list. It is from Dr. Otto Raabe, former President of the Health Physics Society. Dr. Raabe has far more education and experience in Health Physics than Doug Rokke. November 26, 2002 Davis, CA Last night I went to hear Doug Rokke's performance at the Davis Community Church concerning the "poisoning of whole nations by the use of DU munitions by the U.S. military". In his talk Rokke made numerous technical errors concerning uranium toxicology and health physics including saying that a beta dose to the skin of 300 mrem exceeded the standard for whole body exposure. I strongly objected to his misrepresentation of the DU toxicology facts during the comment period. I think my objections fell on closed minds, however, since this was a cultist group of "peace activists" who think disarmament of our nation will lead to peace. Rokke's stated purpose is to get the U.S. to stop using some of our best field weapons that employ DU projectiles. Rokke's performance was clever and polished. I think he has had professional drama coaching. Not since Helen Caldicott have I heard such masterful manipulation of the audience. He credited himself at every turn with being highly principled while always casting the U.S. military as nefarious and cold-blooded. He claimed he was fired by the government because of his dedication to health and safety. Much of his talk involved references to toxic chemicals released by our military action in the Gulf War, contaminated food provided by the Saudis, and claimed poisoning of people by DU dust. He said he was a "health physicist" (BAC - which proves Rokke is the ultimate source of the lies identified in this post) and implied that he had a Ph.D. in physics by reference to being in his "physics lab" while working on his doctorate. Actually, his doctorate is in "Education Methodology", which I got him to admit during the questioning. He is certainly not a qualified health physicist. According to reliable sources, he is currently a substitute teacher in a middle school in Urbana, Illinois, and a director of a children's camp in the summers (BAC - this pro-Rokke source, http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/Rokke-Depleted-Uranium-DU21apr03.htm, confirms that). Rokke said that in the Gulf War he was the "Director of the Army Depleted Uranium Project," and that virtually everyone who worked on the project was sick from exposure to DU. The diseases and ailments that he claimed for DU conflict with 50 years of research on DU toxicology and with the findings of the Department Defence who are carefully evaluating military personnel who were exposed to high levels of airborne DU aerosols. See http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii Unfortunately, the audience of about 100 people were enthralled with Rokke and angry with me for objecting to his erroneous statements and misrepresentation, but I think it was important to cast some doubt on this charlatans's proclamations. Otto Prof. Otto G. Raabe, Ph.D. CHP ***************** And he LIED about his role in Iraq. ************* http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.html 30 Dead or Zero Dead? Military Spokesman Contradicts Fatalities Claim by Doug Rokke I recently received an email (indirectly) from a military source having the following email address: (special.assistant@deploymenthealth.osd.mil) The gist of the email is that Doug Rokke's claims about the health effects in members of his gulf war clean up team are not accurate. I decided to see what I could find on the Internet about those claims before posting this government response. The most common claim, attributed to Doug Rokke, is that 30 members of his "100 member team" have died, with the implication being that the death was from depleted uranium. Here is a typical quote where the information seems to come from Doug Rokke. This article is by Larry Johnson in the Seattle Post - Intelligencer but it is certainly not the only one as there appear to be dozens of similar texts on the Internet: "Rokke and his primary team of about 100 performed their cleanup task without any specialized training or protective gear. Today, Rokke said, at least 30 members of the team are dead, and most of the others -- including Rokke -- have serious health problems". ... snip ... ......................................................... The following information from the military "Special Assistant on Deployment Health" paints a quite different picture. Unless Rokke can come up with the names of most of the 30 who he alleges have died, I will have to believe the government information, rather than Rokke's claim. Rokke seems to have exaggerated both his role and the number of people who have died since the cleanup. Here is the email from the official government source: End of quote. My comments: It seems that as of 1998, not a single member of the team had died of exposure to uranium, contrary to Rokke's claim. Before posting the above text, I contacted Doug Rokke and asked him to comment on this material. He refused to say anything in support of his earlier claim that 30 people had died from his organization and instead showed an intense desire to change the subject. ******************* From this Australian government document: House:Legislative Council Statement Date Wednesday, 13 August 2003 ... snip Lancelin Defence Training Area HON FRANK HOUGH (Agricultural) [5.39 pm]: In early July I was made aware of a brochure that was being circulated in Lancelin by the Greens (WA), which was titled “Depleted Uranium: The Silent Killer”. I listened to the Liam Bartlett show on the radio and heard people say that their property values had halved because the Americans were using bombs with uranium tips in Lancelin, which would contaminate the water. I obtained a copy of the brochure issued by Hon Dee Margetts. It states that Dr Doug Rokke, a United States expert on depleted uranium, visited Lancelin on 6 July 2003. It also states, in part - "Dr Rokke was a major in the US Army and former head of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project, responsible for training US personnel in preparation for Gulf War I in terms of their exposure to environmental hazards including radiation. Dr Rokke holds a PhD in Philosophy and a Master of Science." I was rather annoyed when I read that. It was obviously based on information the member received and not from either Senator Robert Hill or the United States Consul General in Perth, Oscar De Soto. I took the time to write to Oscar De Soto and Senator Robert Hill. My letter to the Consul General states, in part - "I am writing to seek the Consulates assurance that the United States of America has not used and will not use Depleted Uranium (DU) munitions at the Lancelin Defence Training Area (LTDA) in Western Australia." I received a reply from the Consul General this morning. It states - QUOTE: "Thank you for your letter dated July 17 regarding Depleted Uranium . . . Firstly, let me make clear that the United States, as a matter of policy and practicality, does not use DU munitions at the Australian Lancelin Defence Forces range. DU munitions are seldom used in training anywhere because they are too costly to expend for training. Furthermore, the U.S. military uses the Lancelin Range only infrequently, and only by invitation of the Australian Government. When U.S. forces use the range, it is always jointly with Australia and in compliance with all Australian laws and environmental rules. The U.S. military utilizes Australian environmentalist planners on each and every use. Secondly, Dr. Doug Rokke has made exaggerated and untrue claims during his visit to Australia. Dr. Rokke has exaggerated his background. He is not, and has never been “the foremost U.S. military expert on DU,” as he was described in the June 18th Canberra Times. He is not a medical doctor. His Ph.D is in education. He earned a Ph.D in Science/Technology Education from the University of Illinois, Urbana in 1992." If he was finishing his PhD in 1992 he was certainly not, as Hon Dee Margetts claims, running the Gulf War as a major in 1991. He was still at university. The letter continues - QUOTE: "Dr. Rokke did not join the U.S. as a medical officer in 1967, as reported in the Canberra Times. He joined as an airman, an avionics technician. According to the Department of Defense, Dr. Rokke was not “in charge of cleaning up radioactive waste” after the 1991 Gulf War, as was described in a June 18th ABC broadcast. As a First Lieutenant, Dr. Rokke was assigned to the 12th Preventative Medical Detachment of the 330th Medical Brigade prior to and during the war. There were 66 people assigned to the unit; he was the most junior of 14 officers." He was one level from being a gopher! He was a junior lieutenant. That is a long way from being a major. They have different pips. He may not have been able to distinguish them! The letter continues - QUOTE: "Initially, he was responsible for conducting nuclear, biological and chemical training." Hon Peter Foss: He sounds like a fraud. Hon FRANK HOUGH: He does. Others sell snake oil. They get carried away. What is worse is that they get mixed up with the Greens (WA) and try to pull the wool over our eyes. I know I could go to America and become Surgeon General and an honorary brigadier and take people for a ride. The people in Lancelin should not be subject to charlatans who tell them their water is full of depleted uranium. The letter from the Consul General concludes - QUOTE: "In closing, let me reiterate that the U.S. military does not use DU munitions in Lancelin. I urge you to share this information with your constituents and other Members of Parliament. . . . Yours sincerely, Oscar De Soto, Consul General of the United States of America" I spoke to the consulate office this morning and I was guaranteed the information is very accurate. The consulate probably has a system linked with the Central Intelligence Agency to pull the records. The details of the letter were not made up overnight. The Consul General took three and a half weeks to research the situation. He was quite clear in determining the facts. Another part of the letter states - QUOTE: "While Dr. Rokke presents himself as an expert, this does not make it so. His role in the 1991 Gulf War, at the US Army Chemical School, and his educational background do not qualify him as an expert on the purported health effects of depleted uranium. . . . It is important to make a clear-cut distinction between Dr. Rokke’s technical qualifications and those of certified medical health physicists who are qualified to assess the medical implications of radiation exposures." The member should apologise to the people of Lancelin. She has been badly misinformed and badly misinformed them. She should write to the Consul General and apologise sincerely for having a go at the US Navy. We have enough problems with trying to establish relationships with other countries without having to deal with this type of rubbish. If she is not prepared to do that, she should enjoy life as something other than a parliamentarian. She is abdicating her responsibilities by putting out this type of rubbish and putting fear in the hearts of people who live in the broader community. This is one of the ploys that people work through. Another part of the letter states - QUOTE: "Regarding allegations in the pamphlet that the U.S. Navy plans to establish a permanent base at Cockburn Sound in Western Australia as part of the Sea Swap program, I can confirm the United States has no plans to establish a base in Western Australia or anywhere else in Australia. The Australian Marine Complex at Cockburn Sound is a Western Australian public-private commercial project. If the U.S. Navy uses the Complex for maintenance, it will be on the same terms as any other customer. That Dr. Rokke’s baseless claims regarding DU are associated with the U.S. Navy’s activities in Western Australia appear aimed at provoking anxiety and perpetuating disinformation in the community." I am extremely annoyed. I think I have contained myself very well. I have been rather humble and subtle in this because this type of rubbish has got to cease. People must not go to the broader community rumour mongering and making up stories for the betterment of their own. I often see the fairy-floss dancers on the sand hills at Lancelin at night dropping petals. I have people ringing me saying their house at Lancelin has halved in value. These are the people they appeal to. I hope my house at Lancelin has not halved in value, because I know who I will be chasing for the other half of the value. I believe the member might be getting a pay rise! **************** http://www.vanderbilt.edu/radsafe/0311/msg00401.html Dear Editor: I thought that you might want to correct some errors and false implications in your article, "Nuclear physicist to give presentation on weapons at Franklin College." Doug Rokke is a retired U.S. Army Reserve major. He did not retire from the Regular Army. He is not old enough to collect his Army Reserve retirement pay. He is not a nuclear physicist and he is not a health physicist. He is occasionally employed as a substitute teacher. It appears his primary function is to travel around the world getting paid for speaking against depleted uranium. He was not a director of the U.S. Army depleted-uranium project. No such project with that name ever existed. In addition, he was not a director of anything else as far as I know. He is a Gulf War veteran, not a Gulf War combat veteran. He was never involved in combat. As background information, I am a nuclear physicist and a health physicist, have been a director, am retired from the Regular Army, and was in combat in Vietnam. I do not consider Rokke my peer in any of those areas. I realize that you were passing on information given to you to publicize the event. Hopefully, my corrections will indicate that the speaker has an agenda that tends to ignore the facts. Robert Cherry, Ph.D Certified Health Physicist Colonel, U.S. Army (retired) ************* He LIED, FormerLurker. About virtually everything. But you insist on believing him. On citing him as an expert. What does that say about you?
Yes, that again. Why are you folks so eager to believe liars?
Just in case you don't know, Diana is on a kick of misrepresenting what I say (and what she has said).
No, what I said is that Dr Rokke LIED about being a health physicist ... because he and the folks who asked him to speak at various BAN DU meetings thought that would make him more credible to the rubes that attended those meetings. Is that it? Just "never mind" that he lied to folks like you ... about his credentials, about his activities in Iraq, about the claimed death of those he worked with? Funny that not one health physicist ... the folks whose specialty is that topic ... agrees with *Dr* Rokke or you about he dangers posed by DU. Not true. What I posted to FormerLurker about Rokke's Army career has been posted numerous times ... even here at 4um. In contrast, all we have to support his claims about his career in the Army is HIS WORD. The word of a man who has openly LIED about being a "health physicist". One should laugh at anyone gullible enough to still believe Rokke after learning that.
He didn't. He LIED about that. Rokke was a First Lieutenant assigned to the 12th Preventative Medical Detachment of the 330th Medical Brigade prior to and during the war. There were 66 people assigned to the unit; he was the most junior of 14 officers. He didn't originate anything. He LIED about being a health physicist. His degree was in EDUCATION. He lied about 30 of his associates dying from DU.
You only embarrass yourself when you do, Diana. You do that instead of face the fact that you've been deceived by the likes of Rokke, Jones, Roberts ... and the folks at 4um who support their allegations.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/340944.stm Sci/Tech As debate intensifies over the use of depleted uranium (DU) weapons in the Balkan conflict, a former Pentagon adviser has come out against them. He is Dr Doug Rokke, a US health physicist who led the DU clean-up in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq immediately after the Gulf War. In 1994, Dr Rokke, an Army Reserve captain, was appointed director of the Pentagon's DU project, a job he left in 1997. He helped develop an education and training programme, and conducted tests on DU explosives in the Nevada desert. The Pentagon has confirmed that A-10 aircraft are using DU rounds in the war with Serbia. They are extremely heavy, and are used for their armour-piercing capability. Veterans from the 1991 conflict believe DU, which is both radioactive and toxic, may help to explain the existence of Gulf War Syndrome. Levels of radioactivity They point to reports from southern Iraq of much higher levels of stillbirths, birth defects, leukaemia and other child cancers. And the Rand Corporation says its study of DU "found little documented evidence of adverse effects", from either radiation or toxicity. It points out that DU is much less radioactive than natural uranium. 'Burning dust' But Dr Rokke told BBC News Online it had been mislead by Major Baggio. Dr Rokke says the force of the impact of a DU round converts much of it into a spray of burning uranium dust. "Consequently, we have DU dust which is a radioactive, heavy, metal poison on or within the equipment", and it is scattered up to 25 or 50 metres away. He says anyone who has inhaled or ingested this dust, or who has let it enter a wound, will need immediate medical treatment. A senior officer of the US Defense Nuclear Agency said in 1991 that radiation from fragments and intact DU rounds was "a serious health threat". He said there was "a possible exposure rate of 200 millirems per hour on contact". "The Nuclear Regulatory Commission's maximum limit ... is 100 millirems per year." "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV
You're the one that brought up Rokke, not I. My original post was well sourced material indicating that the DU used in munitions is contaminated with highly radioactive transuranic elements, including plutonium, neptunium, U-239, U-236, and others. My post had nothing to do with Rokke, it is you that used him as a straw man. Additionally, I'm not so sure if your "sources" are credible as much of what you posted is based on anonymous sources, or people that are not speaking officially for the US Army. And BTW, there is no such rank in the Army as a "junior lieutenant", as one of your sources claimed Rokke to be. It is either 2nd lieutenant or 1st lieutenant. So what's all that say about YOU, eh?
Oh, so it's FIRST lieutenant now and not JUNIOR lieutenant, eh? Get your story straight.
They're not the "best" weapons when they poison the people that use them.
The facts do not depend on Dr. Rokke for their validity; the facts are the facts, regardless. And again, I did not even mention Rokke in my original posts on the topic, it is you that pulled him out of your straw hat to divert attention from the facts I had posted.
So you're telling me that there isn't one "health physicist" that finds U-239 and Plutonium to be harmful to human life?
I often wonder if Dr. Rokke is a deliberate plant that is out there making these sorts of statements for the sole purpose of discrediting the facts concerning DU, where disinfo artists such as you can later say, "see, this guy is a liar, so everything he says must be a lie". It might work on those unaware of the level of deception used by people like you, but it doesn't fool those that ARE aware. It simply validates the idea that there is an active campaign in place to discredit any real info on the topic.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI simply said to ingest it causes health problems You've done more than that, Diana.
#79. To: hammerdown, Mekons4, BeAChooser, robin, Marie Colvin (#77)
#80. To: Dakmar, Jethro Tull, BeAChooser (#28)
LOL, you get a +2 for prentending BAC is human.
#81. To: Dakmar, Mekons4, BeAChooser (#73)
This Marie Colvin?
#82. To: Diana (#80)
#83. To: scrapper2 (#81)
. are you thinking of spending summer vacation this year at the Baghdad Hotel?
#84. To: Dakmar (#82)
#85. To: scrapper2 (#39)
Substitute the words "gulag" for "concentration camp" and "Christian" for Jews" and you get the picture.
#86. To: BeAChooser, hammerdown, All (#52)
HE has my respect.
#87. To: BeAChooser (#65)
Like telling audiences that he is a health physicist when, in fact, he is not?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#88. To: BeAChooser, FormerLurker (#65)
Like telling audiences that he is a health physicist when, in fact, he is not?
#89. To: FormerLurker (#65)
#90. To: Diana (#89)
Just in case you don't know, BAC is on this kick that only "health physicists" are capable of knowing the effects of DU on humans.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#91. To: Diana (#89)
#92. To: Diana (#89)
#93. To: FormerLurker, hammerdown (#90)
He's trying to say that Dr. Rokke is not a health physicist, so that makes anything that Dr. Rokke says less than credible.
#94. To: hammerdown (#92)
#95. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2, hammerdown, FormerLurker, robin, All (#68)
(Edited)
The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.
#96. To: BeAChooser (#0)
He is certainly off to a good start.
#97. To: Diana, ALL (#70)
Again, can you find the posts where I wrote of the bombs placed in the WTC?
"Can you show us the posts where you've challenged the bombs in the WTC assertions? You've certainly been on enough threads where this was being discussed to have done so by now. So can you?"
In other words, from the above post you answered me with, you looked back for such posts and to your consternation you found that I have written nothing on the topic of bombs in the buildings.
#98. To: hammerdown, ALL (#74)
"The poll, the biggest since coalition troops entered Iraq on March 20, 2003"
so now you grasp at "polls" for your validation. marvelous.
#99. To: Diana, ALL (#75)
It just so happens the topic of bombs is one that went by me.
#100. To: BeAChooser (#99)
Your not being honest, Diana. As the post above proves. I'm disappointed in you.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#101. To: Mekons4, ALL (#76)
This was probably conducted with green zone employees, with a few Marines hanging around looking threatening.
#102. To: Diana, ALL (#80)
maybe he is one of those lizard people David Ickes talks about.
#103. To: Diana, scrapper2, ALL (#85)
Stalin and the communists walked away the big winners at the end of WW II.
Brilliant post scrapper.
#104. To: BeAChooser (#101)
#105. To: Diana, ALL (#86)
You're incapable of having "respect" for anybody.
#106. To: FormerLurker, ALL (#87)
Dr. Doug Rokke Address on Depleted Uranium
He says that he SERVED for the US Army as a health physicist. Do you have any evidence that he didn't?
Center for Health and the Environment
University of California, Davis, CA 95616 We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense. Following the ground war, Rokke was attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment. The team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM). Rokke's primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support. Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of "his team." These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.
In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on "his team." Staff members were able to interview 22 of them. Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on "his team" actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles. Two of the 29 had died, however, in interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium. While we respect Rokke's right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so. His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert. These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.
#107. To: Diana, ALL (#88)
Like telling audiences that he is a health physicist when, in fact, he is not?
Not that again.
#108. To: Diana, ALL (#89)
Just in case you don't know, BAC is on this kick that only "health physicists" are capable of knowing the effects of DU on humans.
#109. To: FormerLurker, ALL (#90)
He's trying to say that Dr. Rokke is not a health physicist, so that makes anything that Dr. Rokke says less than credible.
Regardless of Dr. Rokke's background,
it doesn't change the fact that DU is in itself a radioactive material that can inflict DNA and celluar damage if inhaled, along with various other insidious effects due to its chemical toxicity.
As far as Dr. Rokke, BAC has never demonstrated that he did NOT serve as a health physicist for the US Army.
#110. To: hammerdown, Diana, ALL (#91)
He was good enough for the U.S.Army to originate their decontamination procedure
#111. To: Diana, ALL (#94)
He's like a 3 year old in that he thinks he can get away with his lies and distortions which are very obvious to all.
He gets angry when I point that out which I do from time to time.
#112. To: Diana (#95)
Pentagon's man in uranium warning
A-10 tankbuster: They are now firing DU weapons over Kosovo
By Environment Correspondent Alex Kirby 
But Nato says DU is no more dangerous than any other heavy metal. Its spokesman, Major Dan Baggio, says a DU round contained about as much uranium as would go into "a glow-in-the-dark type of watch". ![[ image: DU munitions are
highly effective armour penetrators]](/olmedia/340000/images/_340944_tank.jpg)
DU munitions are highly effective armour penetrators
He believes that Pentagon officials have made "a political decision and are totally unwilling to recognise that there are health consequences of the use of DU". ![[ image: What sort of
Kosovo will the refugees return to?]](/olmedia/340000/images/_340944_people.jpg)
What sort of Kosovo will the refugees return to?
#113. To: BeAChooser (#106)
What does that say about you?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#114. To: BeAChooser (#110)
Rokke was a First Lieutenant assigned to the 12th Preventative Medical Detachment of the 330th Medical Brigade prior to and during the war.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#115. To: BeAChooser (#106)
Rokke's stated purpose is to get the U.S. to stop using some of our best field weapons that employ DU projectiles.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#116. To: BeAChooser (#109)
Is that it? Just "never mind" that he lied to folks like you ... about his credentials, about his activities in Iraq, about the claimed death of those he worked with?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#117. To: BeAChooser (#109)
Funny that not one health physicist ... the folks whose specialty is that topic ... agrees with *Dr* Rokke or you about he dangers posed by DU.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#118. To: BeAChooser (#109)
No, what I said is that Dr Rokke LIED about being a health physicist ... because he and the folks who asked him to speak at various BAN DU meetings thought that would make him more credible to the rubes that attended those meetings.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
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