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Title: British Backtrack on Iraq death toll
Source:
Independent
URL Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2396031.ece
Published: Mar 27, 2007
Author: Jill Lawless
Post Date: 2007-03-27 06:38:41 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 24720
Comments: 394
British government officials have backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion, the BBC reported yesterday. The Government publicly rejected the findings, published in The Lancet in October. But the BBC said documents obtained under freedom of information legislation showed advisers concluded that the much-criticised study had used sound methods. The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence. The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636. The conclusion, based on interviews and not a body count, was disputed by some experts, and rejected by the US and British governments. But the chief scientific adviser to the Ministry of Defence, Roy Anderson, described the methods used in the study as "robust" and "close to best practice". Another official said it was "a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones".
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#203. To: leveller, BeAChooser (#197)
(Edited)
delegatvs non potest delegare
You want links to direct quotes by the pathologists and photographer? Fine. ********* "Experts Differ on Ron Brown's Head Wound" By Christopher Ruddy, FOR THE PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW, December 3, 1997 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1997/12/03/35938 "Even if you safely assumed accidental plane crash, when you got something that appears to be a homicide, that should bring everything to a screeching halt," Lt. Col. Steve Cogswell, a doctor and deputy medical examiner with the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, told the Tribune-Review. In several interviews, Cogswell repeatedly referred to the wound as "an apparent gunshot wound." However, he also said, "Whether it's a bullet or something else, we don't know." ... snip ... "Essentially ... Brown had a .45-inch inwardly beveling circular hole in the top of his head, which is essentially the description of a .45-caliber gunshot wound," Cogswell added. ... snip ... "I talked to Col. Gormley and he told me there is a .45(-inch) inwardly beveling, perfectly circular hole in the top of (Brown's) head," Cogswell said. ... snip ... "Open him up. This man needs an autopsy," Cogswell said he told Gormley. "This whole thing stinks." ... snip ... Cogswell also felt it would be very difficult for any rod or similar item to pierce the skull then exit, leaving a perfect hole as it did. His suspicions grew upon his return to the United States when he spoke to AFIP colleagues who had stayed at Dover. He also reviewed the photographic and X-ray evidence. "I talked to a few people who were there from our office and asked them ... if they thought this wound looked like a gunshot wound, or, `What do you think the hole looked like?' And the uniform response was, `Yeah, it looked like a gunshot wound.'" he said. ... snip ... Her photos would later become part of Cogswell's slide program. He tells his audiences that the frontal head X-ray shows the defect at the top of the head, and something perhaps more sinister. Inside the left side of Brown's head, in the area behind his eye socket, "there are multiple small fragments of white flecks, which are metallic density on X-ray. That's what we might describe as a `lead snowstorm' from a high-velocity gunshot wound." ... snip ... The Tribune-Review obtained copies of those images as well as detailed photos of Brown's body and the circular wound. All were shown to Dr. Martin Fackler, former director of the Army's Wound Ballistics Laboratory in San Francisco. While acknowledging he is not a pathologist, Fackler said he thought it "very difficult to see" how something like a rivet could have produced the head wound. He also said brain matter was visible. "It's round as hell. That is extremely round," Fackler said with a chuckle. "I'm impressed by how very, very round that hole is. That's unusual except for a gunshot wound. It's unusual for anything else." Fackler said he could not rule it a gunshot without a full autopsy and better X-rays. He said the supposed metal fragments on the first X-ray were not conclusive because they were very small, an autopsy had not been conducted to locate them, and a side X-ray was overexposed, giving little detail of the head. "They didn't do an autopsy. My God. It's astounding," he said. ************** "Second Expert: Brown's Wound Appeared to be From Gunshot" By Christopher Ruddy, FOR THE PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW, December 9, 1997 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1997/12/09/34206 A second Armed Forces medical examiner has stepped forward to publicly confirm key statements made by a colleague about the death of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown. U.S. Army Lt. Col. David Hause (pronounced "hoss"), a deputy armed forces medical examiner, told the Tribune-Review he personally examined a suspicious head wound on Brown's corpse while it was being examined at Dover Air Force Base, Del. He said several allegations made by Air Force Lt. Col. Steve Cogswell in a Tribune-Review article last week are true. Hause also expressed criticism of the military's treatment of Cogswell in the wake of that article. ... snip ... Cogswell was not present at Dover when the wound was examined, but Hause was. According to Hause, his examination table was only two tables away from the one on which Brown's body was laid out. "A commotion" erupted, he said, when someone said, "Gee, this looks like a gunshot wound." Hause said he left his examination table to view the wound. He remembers saying, "Sure enough, it looks like a gunshot wound to me, too." He said the wound "looked like a punched-out .45-caliber entrance hole." ... snip ... Hause agreed that "by any professional standard" an autopsy should have been conducted on Brown's body, but said he understood that "political and administrative" factors made it difficult for one to be conducted. Even so, he suggested that Gormley should have consulted with superiors to get authority, or if that was impossible, sought permission from the next of kin. After viewing the wound, Hause said he did not pursue the issue or investigate further. "I made the presumption the reason (Gormley) concluded it wasn't a gunshot wound, (and) therefore there was no need to go further, was that he looked at the X-rays" and found no evidence of a bullet, Hause explained. ... snip ... Additionally, Cogswell and another expert consulted by the Tribune-Review said a side X-ray indicates a "bone plug" from the hole displaced under the skull and into the brain. Hause's eyewitness examination also contradicts Gormley. "What was immediately below the surface of the hole was just brain. I didn't remember seeing skull" in the hole, he said. Hause concluded that the piece of skull "punched out" by the impacting object had displaced into the head. ... snip ... According to Hause, all that remains of the head X-rays are photographic slide images in the possession of Cogswell and copies of images possessed by the Tribune-Review. Hause said the disturbing facts raised by Cogswell, including the missing X-rays, have not drawn an appropriate reaction from AFIP officials. "It looks like the AFIP is starting its usual procedure of, upon receiving bad news, immediately shooting the messenger," Hause commented in reference to administrative actions taken against Cogswell in recent days. ... snip ... On Friday, Hause said a commotion developed in the office when a military police officer showed up and asked Cogswell to accompany him to Cogswell's home to retrieve all slides and photos in his possession relating to AFIP cases. "One of the things I'm wondering is why all the attention is focused on Cogswell, who never had the original X-rays," Hause said. ************ "Wecht: Autopsy Needed in Brown Case" by Christopher Ruddy, FOR THE PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW, December 17, 1997 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1997/12/17/32921 One of the nation's most prominent forensic pathologists says there was "more than enough" evidence to suggest possible homicide in the death of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown, and an autopsy should have been conducted on his body. Allegheny County Coroner Cyril Wecht reached these conclusions after reviewing photographs of Brown's body, photo images of X-rays of Brown's head and body, and the report of the forensic pathologist for the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology who examined the corpse. ... snip ... Wecht scoffs at skeptics who dismiss the possibility of Brown being found with a bullet after a plane crash. "It's happened," Wecht said. "It's in the literature. It's rare, but it can happen, and evidence of a possible gunshot should not be ignored." After reviewing the evidence, Wecht reached several broad conclusions. "It's not even arguable in the field of medical legal investigations whether an autopsy should have been conducted on Brown," Wecht said. "I'll wager you anything that you can't find a forensic pathologist in America who will say Brown should not have been autopsied," Wecht continued. He noted that it's standard procedure to conduct autopsies on all victims in a plane crash. Forget about Brown being a cabinet member, or being under investigation," Wecht added. "He was in a plane crash. That alone should have meant he was autopsied." ... snip ... Wecht, who is also a lawyer, agrees with Cogswell. "There was more than enough evidence of a possible homicide to call in the FBI so that (the autopsy could have been conducted) and a gunshot could have been ruled out," Wecht said. "The military had a duty to notify the (Brown) family, and if the family didn't allow an autopsy, go to another authority to have it conducted. (AFIP) had a duty to do an autopsy," the coroner continued. ... snip ... "I'm troubled," Wecht added. "They did a tremendous disfavor to the families by not conducting autopsies." For one thing, he noted, survivors may have been left with weaker legal claims for damages. As for the wound itself, Wecht said, "Anytime you have a circular, symmetrical hole, a pathologist knows that one of the distinct mechanisms for making such a defect is a bullet. "It's not the only one (but) you have to consider it," he added. "The answer lies in the autopsy." ... snip ... Wecht did not rule out the possibility that a piece of the aircraft could have caused the hole, but agreed with Cogswell that such a "perfectly circular" hole would be difficult to achieve with parts of the plane. Wecht, like Cogswell, said the possibility of a bullet should have immediately been ruled out by opening the skull and looking for a bullet track through the brain. After analyzing a photograph of the wound, Wecht also identified tiny fracture lines in the skull that he said "would not be inconsistent with a gunshot wound." ... snip ... Most bothersome, Wecht said, was his identification of almost a half-dozen "tiny pieces of dull silver-colored" material embedded in the scalp on the edge of the circular wound itself and near the hole. These "do suggest metallic fragments," he said. "Little pieces of metal can be found at, or near, an entry site when a bullet enters bone," he explained. These flecks should have been collected for further analysis, Wecht said, though he noted they aren't by themselves proof of a gunshot. "It just makes it more consistent with one," he said. If the metal is from a bullet, he believes the array of fragments in the scalp would indicate a shot was fired before the crash. Wecht said a review of a photographic image of the first frontal X-ray of Brown's head may show, as Cogswell first suggested, "what we say in the jargon of forensic pathology is a lead snowstorm" of fragments left by a disintegrating bullet. ... snip ... Wecht jested that disappearance of the X-rays, which Gormley says would support his conclusions, fit what he calls Wecht's Law: "The frequency of lost X-rays, hospital records, documents, autopsy materials and other materials in a medical-legal investigation is directly in proportion to the complexity, controversy and external challenges" to a given case. In reality, Wecht said, "you'll find it is very, very rare" to have X-rays missing from a case file. ************** "Pathologists Dispute Claims in Brown Probe" by Christopher Ruddy, FOR THE PITTSBURGE TRIBUNE-REVIEW, January 11, 1998 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1998/1/11/32000 One of the officers, Air Force Maj. Thomas Parsons, for the first time spoke publicly on the matter Saturday. The forensic pathologist joined two other AFIP medical examiners in disputing government claims about Brown's death after an Air Force jet carrying him and 34 others crashed in Croatia on April 3, 1996. ... snip ... On Friday, Washington Post reporter Michael Fletcher wrote that Cogswell's claims had prompted AFIP to convene an internal panel of its pathologists to review the Brown matter. Fletcher reported that the panel "unanimously backed" the findings of Col. William Gormley, the Air Force pathologist who examined Brown's body and concluded that he died of blunt force injuries during the plane crash. Gormley also ruled that the circular wound was not caused by a gunshot. The Post article quoted Gormley as stating that "there is no doubt in anybody's mind" that Brown died of blunt force injuries and that he had not been shot. Citing AFIP's director, Col. Michael Dickerson, Fletcher reported that "the group (of pathologists) issued a report reaffirming the initial Air Force conclusion that Brown's death was accidental ..." Fletcher's report also indicated that Hause had changed his mind and was now affirming Gormley's findings. Contradicting these claims are Hause and Parsons, both of whom participated in AFIP's internal review. Both officers concluded that Gormley's findings simply could not be substantiated, that the possibility of a gunshot could not be ruled out, and that an autopsy should have been conducted. None was. "Fletcher's article in the Washington Post, in which Colonel Dickerson said I concurred in this `unanimous' finding, contains a lie," Hause told the Tribune-Review. The Post report Friday morning left him "fuming," Hause said, and that evening he prepared a point-by-point statement countering AFIP's claims. Hause said he was never informed a report was to be issued on the Brown case, nor did he ever see the report that AFIP claims he signed off on. ... snip ... Hause told Spencer he thought it was "probably not" a gunshot, but at no point did he rule out the possibility that it was. Hause said he emphasized to Spencer that the wound was very consistent with an "exotic weapon," such as a captive-bolt gun. ... snip ... According to Hause, Spencer asked if he agreed with Gormley's findings. Hause responded that the death was "probably" accidental, but that there was insufficient evidence to say Brown died of blunt force injuries as a result of the plane crash. Hause also says he advised Spencer that Gormley should have conducted an autopsy, and that "Secretary Brown's body should be exhumed and an autopsy performed by pathologists not associated with AFIP." Parsons, another participant in the internal review, told the Tribune-Review that he, too, could not back Gormley's findings. Reached at his home Saturday, the Air Force major also said he had never reviewed nor signed off on any such report, and had no idea what the report contained. Parsons said the statement in Friday's Post that all panelists had agreed with Gormley's findings "was not true." ***************** "Fourth Expert Claims Probe of Brown's Death Botched" by Christopher Ruddy, FOR THE PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW, January 13, 1998 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1998/1/13/173306 The head of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology's forensic photography unit, like three senior officials before her, has come forward to publicly claim that the military improperly handled the investigation of the death of Commerce Secretary Ron Brown. Chief Petty Officer Kathleen Janoski, a 22-year Navy veteran, also says she was told missing evidence of a possible homicide had been purposely destroyed. Janoski, the senior enlisted person at AFIP's Rockville, Md., offices, was present when Brown's body was examined by military pathologists at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware. ... snip ... Janoski said she was stunned that AFIP's inquiry focused on the actions of Cogswell when she felt the real issue was AFIP's handling of Brown's death. "The investigation is nothing more than a witch hunt. (AFIP) should be investigating what happened to the missing head X-rays. No one at AFIP seems to care that Brown did not receive an autopsy," Janoski said. ... snip ... "Wow, look at the hole in Ron Brown's head. It looks like a gunshot wound," Janoski recalls exclaiming. ... snip ... Gormley, who has approximately 25 years of experience in pathology, has said that he, too, identified the wound as a "red flag" and that he consulted with other pathologists present, including Hause and Navy Cmdr. Edward Kilbane. "They agreed it looked like an entrance gunshot wound," Gormley recalled in a recent television interview. ... snip ... Janoski alleges Sentell told her the original X-rays of Brown's head had been replaced in the case file. Janoski said she remembers that Sentell specifically told her "the first head X-ray that showed a `lead snowstorm' was destroyed, and a second X-ray, that was less dense, was taken." Janoski said she had to ask "What are you talking about?" in reference to Sentell's phrase "lead snowstorm." According to Janoski, Sentell explained that a lead snowstorm is the description of a pattern of metal fragments that appears on an X-ray after a bullet has disintegrated inside a body. ... snip ... One of the pathologists involved questions the timing of AFIP's explanation. "I find it interesting that this explanation about the film cartridge defect came after Lt. Col. Cogswell made his allegations, and not at the time we were at Dover," said Hause. Hause, who made these comments to the Tribune-Review before a gag order had been placed on AFIP staff, said he does not recall ever being told there was a problem with the X-rays. *********** "Kathleen Janoski Describes Cover-Up in Ron Brown Investigation" By Carl of Oyster Bay, FOR THE WASHINGTON WEEKLY, April 26, 1998 http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1998/4/26/01704 GRANT: We do have here on the line, Chief Petty Officer, United States Navy and chief of forensic photography with Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Kathleen Janoski. And she alleges that there has been a cover-up in the investigation of Ron Brown. Ms. Janoski, I welcome you to the Bob Grant program via the telephone. I understand that you have received some threats of one type or another. That there's been some pressure brought to bear to have you cease and desist from speaking out. Is that true? JANOSKI: Yes that is. Essentially what's happening is that I'm being punished as a whistleblower because I went on record with The Pittsburgh Tribune Review back in January. I used to be chief of forensic photography but I was kicked out of my office with essentially 32 hours notice and forced to walk away from a quarter million dollar inventory that I'm still assigned responsibility for. ... snip ... JANOSKI: It's actually the Army and the Air Force Colonel who's in charge of the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. What it is - there's four of us altogether, (Lt. Col. Steve) Cogswell, (Lt. Col. David) Hause, myself and (Air Force Major Thomas) Parsons. And we all went on the record saying that Ron Brown had what appeared to be an apparent gunshot wound to the head - and that Ron Brown needed an autopsy, which he did not receive. ... snip ... JANOSKI: Well, actually it wasn't a mark. It was a hole in his skull. It was perfectly round, inwardly beveling and it's diameter was .45 inches. And it had punctured the skull. Brain was showing. And that's essentially what we said: that Ron Brown had a wound that appeared consistent with an apparent gunshot wound and that he needed an autopsy. (Janoski has FBI training in gunshot wound analysis). And because of that we're essentially being punished by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. ... snip ... GRANT: You also made an allegation that x-rays were destroyed to hide evidence of a possible bullet wound. JANOSKI: Well, what happened was - we have a Naval criminal investigative agent who's assigned to our office. And about six months after the crash she told me that the first set of x-rays were deliberately destroyed because they showed a "lead snowstorm". And a second set of x-rays were taken and they were deliberately made less dense to try to diminish or eradicate that "lead snowstorm". A Naval criminal investigative agent assigned to my office told me this. GRANT: Now initially you had declined to be interviewed but you changed your mind shortly before a gag order was issued and you came forward, you said, because the AFIP had failed to properly investigate possible wrongdoing by it's own officials in the Brown case. And because of the way the military treated two AFIP pathologists. We have talked to Lt. Col Steve Cogswell and Lt. Col. David Hause. Now, I understand that after they both went public, bad things happened to them. JANOSKI: Yes, yes. We were all supposed to go to the American Academy of Forensic Sciences meeting in February. We had our tickets, we had our reservations, we'd paid our registration fees. And right before we were supposed to leave, the director of AFIP canceled our orders immediately. Also, Dr. Cogswell was forbidden to lecture, forbidden to go on trips. Cogswell, Hause and Parsons were no longer permitted to do any autopsies. And also Dr. Cogswell was kicked out of his office at the same time I was. And he's been re-assigned, they re-assigned him to oral pathology. So they have a medical examiner working with a bunch of dentists right now. He's very ill-equipped to work in that area. So essentially what they're doing is something that's typical in punishing a whistleblower. They're setting him up for failure. ************ And to see a list of other articles on the topic plus the photos of the wound and x-ray, go here: http://www.newsmax.com/articles/?a=1999/1/31/173313 Or you can just continue to pretend ignorance or be lazy and do no further investigation. It's entirely up to you, Destro.
That's hearsay, you idiot.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
You have overlooked the distinction between form and substance. No particular form is prescribed for a declaration of war. But it must, in substance, declare that a state of war exists between the US and another nation. Take another look at that quote from Kent, posted above. The opening sentence refers to ancient usage in international relations. The Framers did not write the Constitution in an intellectual vaccuum. Terms of art are employed throughout. A declaration of war was not understood then, and is not understood now, to be a mere authorization of force.
Therein lies an important distinction between the Jeffersonian adventure in Tripoli and the AUMF. The targets of AUMF, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, did not declare war. They did not initiate war. A band of criminals (according to the official story ) whose organization was once funded and trained and supplied by the US, perpetrated a few crimes on our soil. These crimes gave the US no casus belli against Afghanistan and Iraq. These criminals did not enjoy nationhood, and a declaration of war against them would have sounded ridiculous.
A transcript of that television interview was submitted to a court of law by Judicial Watch. It would be a crime to falsify such a thing, wouldn't it? Has JH been accused of that by the court or anyone else? No? Has Gormley come forward to deny he said that? No? And others reported the same content in the Gormley interview on BET too. All they all liars too? Now you can sit there with your head in the ground but that's not going to convince many that Gormley didn't admit to what was noted or that the other named pathologists haven't said what has been quoted. You only make yourself look even more desperate to make the Ron Brown allegation go away. Which makes me suspicious why you'd be desperate regarding that. You're not a democRAT, are you Dakmar?
If they could see me now, that little gang of mine... :)
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
That's me - Ron Brown News 24/7. You're starting to creep me out a little, Ooser; could you try telling the truth for like five minutes? We'll give you nekkid pictures of Teddy Roosevelt!
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Precisely. The delegee cannot delegate. Congress has limited enumerated powers, and among them is no power to delegate its powers. An extreme view, that I favor, is that no regulations promulgated by departments of the government other than Congress have the force of law.
First of all, at the time Jefferson ordered the fleet to the Med with orders to attack, he did not know that Tripoli had declared war. Communications then aren't what they are today. A founding father obviously didn't agree with your views, leveller. That must be sobering. Second, the targets in Afghanistan had most certainly declared war on the US. Bin Laden did it years earlier on a tape played on TV throughout the world. And surely you aren't claiming the Taliban were acting as honest brokers. Or that we shouldn't have done anything about Bin Laden just because the Taliban hadn't made a *formal* declaration of war (according you YOUR definition). As to Iraq, tapes of Saddam talking to his associates make it quite clear that they still thought they were at war with the US despite the cease fire agreement. And surely you aren't claiming that we had no right to push Saddam out of Kuwait because he hadn't formally declared war on us. And I have news for you, leveller. I doubt that Saddam's *constitution* or *laws* specified the form that a declaration of war had to take either. And statements by Tariq Aziz about the conflict make it quite clear that Saddam knew invading Kuwait would mean WAR with the US. And since Saddam broke the cease fire agreement, a good case can be made that that first war was not over when we invaded.
Their orders wer to protect shipping on the high seas, in accordance with the doctrine of the freedom of the seas, accepted by the Founders.
We had no right to invade Afghanistan to reach those targets. Those targets had committed a criminal offense within our borders. We have prosecuted some of them for domestic criminal offenses. When we demanded Bin Laden, Afghanistan quite rightly demanded proof. We incorrectly answered that we weren't obligated to provide it. (We probably had none) Rather than provide the proof, we invaded. If Bin Laden had had nationhood, his act of aggression would have created a state of war, and the President would have been authorized and duty-bound to respond against such a country.
The state of war that existed between the US and Iraq during most of the nineties was the result of the illegal US and British no-fly zone bombing after the cease-fire. April Glaspie gave Iraq the green light to invade, but this issue is beside the point. It hardly matters whether the first war was over when the second began, since the first one was illegal also. Congress has not declared war since WWII.
Where in the Constitution is it specified which form a Declaration of War from Tripoli shall take?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
EXACTLY!!!! 09/11 was a crime NOT an act of war (except to PNAC, of course).
Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.
No, the orders were NOT to "protect" shipping but to take out the pirates WHEREVER they might be hiding and to stop those helping them. Which is why Jefferson and Madison's Navy invaded A COUNTRY and DEPOSED a dictator. Did the founders believe in freedom for terrorists to attack US interests from the safety of a dictatorship? Obviously not. A lesson the left never learned.
Afghanistan lost any rights when it allowed terrorists to openly organize and train within it's borders. It is indisputable that they did. The family of the Taliban leader also married into the family of bin Laden, suggesting a far more than arms length association between the two. There's a lesson here that you on the left still haven't learned. We are playing by new rules now. No, they committed an act of war. A war they formally declared before 9/11. So we are legally helpless against terrorists. That's your message, lawyer? ROTFLOL!
Does that give us the right to invade Crawford, TX? Holy Cow but you are stupid.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
It's not just beside the point. It is outright FALSE. And you know it as we've discussed this before. Tariq Aziz, who was at the meeting between Glaspie and Saddam, is on the record stating that NO green light was given, that Glaspie said nothing out of the ordinary, that the transcript on which you base this claim is "incomplete*, that Saddam knew invading Kuwait would mean war with the US, and that they prepared accordingly. Show me in the Constitution or our laws where the form of a Declaration of War is defined. You can't.
Thank you. That only helps my case. Show me in the Constitution where it defines a Declaration of War by Iraq or the Taliban.
Except that bin Laden actually had formally declared war on the US.
Are you a typical 4um poster?
Jefferson's words will wake you from your reverie: "To this state of general peace with which we have been blessed, 1 only exception exists. Tripoli, the least considerable of the Barbary States, had come forward with demands unfounded either in right or in compact, & had permitted itself to denounce war on our failure to comply before a given day. The style of the demand admitted but 1 answer. I sent a small squadron of frigates into the Mediterranean, with assurances to that power of our sincere desire to remain in peace, but with orders to protect our commerce against the threatened attack. The measure was seasonable & salutary. The Bey had already declared war. His cruisers were out. Two had arrived at Gibraltar. Our commerce in the Mediterranean was blockaded & that of the Atlantic in peril. The arrival of our squadron dispelled the danger. One of the Tripolitan cruisers having fallen in with & engaged the small schooner Enterprise, commanded by Lieutenant Sterret, which had gone as a tender to our larger vessels, was captured, after a heavy slaughter of her men, without the loss of a single 1 on our part. The bravery exhibited by our citizens on that element will, I trust, be a testimony to the world that it is not the want of that virtue which makes us seek their peace, but a conscientious desire to direct the energies of our nation to the multiplication of the human race, & not to its destruction. Unauthorized by the Constitution, without the sanction of Congress, to go beyond the line of defense, the vessel, being disabled from committing further hostilities, was liberated with its crew." Thomas Jefferson 1st State of Union Washington, DC, 1801-12-08
You have no case, counselor. A peace treaty was signed with Tripoli by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the Senate, thus establishing a precedent to regard Tripoli as a recognised state. Your boy Bush conducted what is commonly known as "gang warfare", totally uncouth, not to mention illegal and unconstitutional.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Are you Jewish?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
It isn't defined because educated people of the time already knew what it was and what form it existed in. Just like Bill of Attainder, Bill of Credit, Letters of Marque, Oath, etc. aren't defined. They are specific articles that had been issued by the Crown and defined by custom and common law and diplomatic protocol for hundreds of years. They weren't expecting to have to define the form of everything for numbskulls like you.
Thank you. BAC strikes me as the sort of person would try to redefine "breathing" in a infanticide trial.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
The facts are these. They are not disputed by anything you posted. Jefferson deployed the navy, without consulting Congress, with permission to attack the pirates or any entity aiding the pirates, before any *formal* declaration of war had actually been received by the US. Now you can spin that any way you want, leveller, but Jefferson apparently didn't agree with your view about the legalities of war.
And when was this? AFTER Jefferson attacked them without consulting Congress? ROTFLOL!
with a fishy aroma that could level tacoma.
"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006
Jeferrson was acting in defense of US interests. Bush got a wild neocon hair up his ass.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Study your history, moron. Look up Adams presidency, note the years.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
shalom fish breath. still trying to poison the reputation of the republican party?
"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006
Well let's see ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli states it was signed in 1797. Jefferson sent his navy over in 1801. So I guess that peace treaty was as worthless as the paper it was on? Sort of like that cease fire agreement with Saddam? Eh?
you said wikipedia wasn't a legitimate source when you first came over here.
"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006
is wikipedia a legitimate source for you but not for anyone else? that is a very republican position.
"And this is the end of my brilliant career on the 4um..." -- ponchy 12/20/2006
Israelis are deeply concerned about the possibility that Iran will soon have nuclear weapons. Americans should be no less concerned. Israeli Justice Minister Yosef Lapid said recently, "It is possible that Iran's first atomic bomb will fall on Tel Aviv, but then the second will fall on New York." The rest of the Western world has reason to be worried about this too. But the European powers are hard to convince of the need to act against the threat of a common foe, a reality that the United States learned two centuries ago. Then, the Barbary pirates were the adversaries. They were based in various parts of North Africa and operated with or without the approval of the nominal rulers of Morocco, Algiers, Tunis and Tripoli. In return for annual payments of protection money from European countries, the pirates promised that ships of those nations would not be attacked. The newly independent Americans joined the arrangement after eleven of their ships were seized by the pirates in 1793, and a ransom of almost one million dollars — borrowed from a Jew in Algiers — was paid for their release. President John Adams favored payments to the pirates and he even agreed to build and deliver two ships to them. Thomas Jefferson, then U.S. ambassador to France, opposed Adams on this issue. He said that a single decisive war against the pirates would be more cost-effective than annual bribes in perpetuity. On becoming president in 1801, Jefferson acted independently. First, he refused to accede to pirate demands for an immediate payment of $225,000 and annual payments of $25,000. Then he sent naval units and marines to North Africa to fight against the blackmailers, an episode recalled in the Marine Hymn ("to the shores of Tripoli"). Hostilities continued, on and off, for four years, until a temporary agreement was reached. Only after a second war in 1815 did American naval victories lead to treaties ending all tribute payments by the United States. European nations continued annual payments until the 1830s. The danger posed by the Barbary pirates was infinitely smaller than that stemming from Al Qaeda and other Islamists. This makes an international coalition more urgent in Bush's day than it was in Jefferson's. In Washington and Jerusalem this is self-evident. It is less obvious in many other places. One hopes that the leaders of the Western world will soon realize that the danger of car bombs, and, soon enough, nuclear bombs, threaten all of them. Where do you get your talking points, BAC?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
The country of bin Laden? Where's that? What is the capital of bin Laden? Did the citizens of bin Laden vote for the formal declaration of war or did bin Laden's Congress or the whatever legislative body thereof declare the formal war? Or did the president/leader of bin Laden declare war all by himself? When we defeat bin Laden in war, will there be an offical surrender ceremony on the deck of some US warship? Will we help rebuild bin Laden after the war? What if we never defeat bin Laden? How long will we be at war? How much money will it cost to defeat bin Laden? How many human wherever situate will die in the war? What if the American people don't want to fight bin Laden in a war? Instead of trying to invade, conquer and occupy bin Laden half way around the world, would it be better to station our troops along the border so bin Laden's military can't sneak in and attack us? Or at least, do both? Is Bush doing that now? Can our navy and air force stand up and defend America against bin Laden's forces? Are we spending enough money for our defense to stop bin Laden's attacks? Should we spend a lot more? If Bush hadn't attacked bin Laden, do you think bin Laden would have invaded, conquered and occupied all of America by now? WHEW!
Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.
Show me in the Constitution or US law where it says we can only be declared war on by countries or can only declare war on countries. You folks still don't get it. It's a brand new world. Then they need only elect representatives that will surrender. Have there been attacks by al-Qaeda inside the US since 9/11? Apparently something is being done to prevent that. And I think you are wrong in thinking that lining up soldiers along our borders wall to wall would do that. And apparently most in charge must agree with me. Probably not. But a lot more American might now be dead than are dead.
You left out "order", Zionist.
Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.
Hey, and moving on, who did the Anthrax?
Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.
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#204. To: Destro, ALL (#198)
Then you haven't been paying attention. I posted to you half a dozen named forensic pathologists
So? No link.
#205. To: BeAChooser (#204)
Gormley, who has approximately 25 years of experience in pathology, has said that he, too, identified the wound as a "red flag" and that he consulted with other pathologists present, including Hause and Navy Cmdr. Edward Kilbane. "They agreed it looked like an entrance gunshot wound," Gormley recalled in a recent television interview.
#206. To: BeAChooser (#201)
But the fact remains that neither the Constitution or laws define the form a declaration of war must take.
#207. To: BeAChooser (#201)
He felt that since Tripoli had already declared war,
#208. To: Dakmar, ALL (#205)
"They agreed it looked like an entrance gunshot wound," Gormley recalled in a recent television interview.
That's hearsay, you idiot.
#209. To: BeAChooser (#208)
Which makes me suspicious why you'd be desperate regarding that. You're not a democRAT, are you Dakmar?
#210. To: BeAChooser (#208)
You only make yourself look even more desperate to make the Ron Brown allegation go away
#211. To: SmokinOPs (#203)
delegatvs non potest delegare
#212. To: leveller, ALL (#207)
"He felt that since Tripoli had already declared war"
Therein lies an important distinction between the Jeffersonian adventure in Tripoli and the AUMF.
The targets of AUMF, such as Afghanistan and Iraq, did not declare war.
#213. To: BeAChooser (#212)
First of all, at the time Jefferson ordered the fleet to the Med with orders to attack, he did not know that Tripoli had declared war.
#214. To: BeAChooser (#212)
the targets in Afghanistan had most certainly declared war on the US. Bin Laden did it years earlier on a tape played on TV throughout the world. And surely you aren't claiming the Taliban were acting as honest brokers. Or that we shouldn't have done anything about Bin Laden just because the Taliban hadn't made a *formal* declaration of war (according you YOUR definition).
#215. To: BeAChooser (#212)
As to Iraq, tapes of Saddam talking to his associates make it quite clear that they still thought they were at war with the US despite the cease fire agreement. And surely you aren't claiming that we had no right to push Saddam out of Kuwait because he hadn't formally declared war on us. And I have news for you, leveller. I doubt that Saddam's *constitution* or *laws* specified the form that a declaration of war had to take either. And statements by Tariq Aziz about the conflict make it quite clear that Saddam knew invading Kuwait would mean WAR with the US. And since Saddam broke the cease fire agreement, a good case can be made that that first war was not over when we invaded.
#216. To: BeAChooser (#212)
First of all, at the time Jefferson ordered the fleet to the Med with orders to attack, he did not know that Tripoli had declared war.
#217. To: leveller (#214)
Those targets had committed a criminal offense within our borders.
#218. To: leveller, ALL (#213)
Their orders wer to protect shipping on the high seas, in accordance with the doctrine of the freedom of the seas, accepted by the Founders.
#219. To: leveller, ALL (#214)
We had no right to invade Afghanistan to reach those targets.
Those targets had committed a criminal offense within our borders.
If Bin Laden had had nationhood, his act of aggression would have created a state of war, and the President would have been authorized and duty-bound to respond against such a country.
#220. To: BeAChooser (#219)
The family of the Taliban leader also married into the family of bin Laden, suggesting a far more than arms length association between the two.
#221. To: leveller, ALL (#215)
April Glaspie gave Iraq the green light to invade, but this issue is beside the point.
Congress has not declared war since WWII.
#222. To: Dakmar (#216)
Where in the Constitution is it specified which form a Declaration of War from Tripoli shall take?
#223. To: wbales, ALL (#217)
09/11 was a crime NOT an act of war
#224. To: Dakmar, ALL (#220)
Holy Cow but you are stupid.
#225. To: BeAChooser (#218)
No, the orders were NOT to "protect" shipping but to take out the pirates WHEREVER they might be hiding and to stop those helping them. Which is why Jefferson and Madison's Navy invaded A COUNTRY and DEPOSED a dictator.
#226. To: BeAChooser (#222)
#227. To: BeAChooser (#224)
Are you a typical 4um poster?
#228. To: BeAChooser, leveller, Dakmar (#221)
Show me in the Constitution or our laws where the form of a Declaration of War is defined.
#229. To: SmokinOPs, BeAChooser (#228)
It isn't defined because educated people of the time already knew what it was and what form it existed in. Just like Bill of Attainder, Bill of Credit, Letters of Marque, Oath, etc. aren't defined.
#230. To: leveller, ALL (#225)
Jefferson's words will wake you from your reverie:
#231. To: Dakmar, ALL (#226)
A peace treaty was signed with Tripoli by President John Adams and Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and ratified by the Senate, thus establishing a precedent to regard Tripoli as a recognised state.
#232. To: Dakmar (#227)
Are you Jewish?
#233. To: BeAChooser (#230)
#234. To: BeAChooser (#231)
#235. To: BeAChooser (#231)
#236. To: Dakmar, ALL (#234)
Study your history, moron. Look up Adams presidency, note the years.
#237. To: BeAChooser (#236)
#238. To: BeAChooser (#236)
#239. To: BeAChooser (#236)
Letter from Israel
The new Barbary pirates
By Nechemia Meyers
#240. To: BeAChooser (#223)
Except that bin Laden actually had formally declared war on the US.
#241. To: wbales, ALL (#240)
The country of bin Laden? Where's that? What is the capital of bin Laden?
What if the American people don't want to fight bin Laden in a war?
Instead of trying to invade, conquer and occupy bin Laden half way around the world, would it be better to station our troops along the border so bin Laden's military can't sneak in and attack us? Or at least, do both? Is Bush doing that now?
If Bush hadn't attacked bin Laden, do you think bin Laden would have invaded, conquered and occupied all of America by now?
#242. To: BeAChooser (#241)
It's a brand new world.
#243. To: BeAChooser (#241)
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