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Title: British Backtrack on Iraq death toll
Source:
Independent
URL Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2396031.ece
Published: Mar 27, 2007
Author: Jill Lawless
Post Date: 2007-03-27 06:38:41 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 29607
Comments: 394
British government officials have backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion, the BBC reported yesterday. The Government publicly rejected the findings, published in The Lancet in October. But the BBC said documents obtained under freedom of information legislation showed advisers concluded that the much-criticised study had used sound methods. The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence. The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636. The conclusion, based on interviews and not a body count, was disputed by some experts, and rejected by the US and British governments. But the chief scientific adviser to the Ministry of Defence, Roy Anderson, described the methods used in the study as "robust" and "close to best practice". Another official said it was "a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones".
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#354. To: Diana, ALL (#348)
By the way, I couldn't help but notice that you simply ignored the amazing coincidence that the first case of anthrax would show up within a few miles of where the hijackers were staying. Backing the incubation time off the first case, ask yourself whether a domestic source for the anthrax would have known where the hijackers were staying at the time he'd have had to mail the letter that supposedly infected the first case.
Why don't you just make up a quote proving that they were guilty as sin and then post a fake link to support the quote. That's what you did twice this evening already. Why waste time with all this silly banter when you can just lie?
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OK. I did. For two seconds. That's all it took to reconfirm that your posts are excrement.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
FALSE. You don't know what you are talking about. From wikipedia: Although the anthrax preparations were of different grades, all of the material derived from the same bacterial strain. Known as the Ames strain, it was first researched at the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (USAMRIID), Fort Detrick, Maryland. The Ames strain was then distributed to at least fifteen bio-research labs within the U.S. and six overseas. DNA sequencing of the anthrax taken from Robert Stevens (the first victim) was conducted at The Institute for Genomic Research beginning in December 2001. Sequencing was finished within a month and the analysis was published in the journal Science in early 2002 (see abstract here). The analysis revealed a number of differences that ruled out laboratories in England, and subsequent testing showed the anthrax to be identical to the original Ames strain from Fort Detrick. Radiocarbon dating conducted by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in June 2002 established that the anthrax was cultured no more than two years before the mailings. In October 2006 it was reported that water used to process the anthrax spores came from a source in the northeastern United States.[2] Press reports in 2003 indicated the FBI failed to reverse engineer the type of anthrax found in the letters.[3][4]
You haven't whined about your silly victimhood for a half hour or so. Why don't you start whining about how unfair it is to discuss your dishonest, sleazy deeds of earlier this evening? Tell us how unfair it is for you to be held up to account for your scummy lies.
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You were famous for your cowardly whining on LP. Lets have a taste. You were doing it earlier.
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That
not what you said. You said "the anthrax was a special highly-milled
strain produced at Ft. Detrick, MD." There is nothing to suggest this
anthrax was milled at Ft Detrick. And there were other potential sources for
this strain of anthrax since it was a type that was sent to labs around the
world. And we know for a fact that at least once Iraq tried to obtain it (from
the British). But there are other places they could have obtained it.
Here, this was from one of robin's sources: "While some sources have
estimated Ames might have been used in as few as 20 labs, one scientist who
has worked with anthrax said the total cannot be known exactly, but is
probably closer to 50." "Until the last few years, a graduate student
would call up a friend at another lab and say, 'Send me Ames,' and they'd do
it," the scientist said. "There wouldn't necessarily be any records kept."
I am curious Chooser, if one single shred of this shit that you spew is correct, then why doesn't Bush get on national TV and save his Presidency with it? Is there some dark conspiracy that prevents him from doing it? Is Ron Brown behind it?
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Yeah, but there's a difference between the strain and the weaponized form produced at Detrick. That is not an off-the-shelf item.
Alles Scheisse.
Just to let you know - BAC has admitted to being a TREASONOUS QUEER!
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Though the case remains officially unsolved: Anthrax remains a big story, one worthy of continued investigation. The tainted letters were addressed to senators, members of the media and average citizens, killed five, injured 17 and turned an already inefficient postal system into a large-scale security nightmare. They also childishly implicated Arabs ("Death to Israel, Allah is Great?" Please.) precisely at a time when American rage towards the Middle East was reaching a boiling point. That alone served as a deciding factor for many Americans to take war abroad, yet despite being an attack on American soil, the Federal Bureau of Investigation repeatedly drags its feet on the issue. Simply put, the man most likely responsible for stealing the anthrax is Dr. Philip Zack. Zack is a prominent microbiologist who worked at the U.S. Army's Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, Maryland while weapons-grade Ames anthrax - the same genetic strain used to terrorize the populace - was stored there. A supposed bigot who taunted his Arab colleagues during his tenure at the facility, Zack was also monitored breaking in and conducting experiments during off hours... while no longer employed at the lab. Zack has been a prime suspect for years - the Hartford Courant wrote a piece about missing anthrax in January 2002, and Salon pursued its own investigation later that year. Suspicion arose from an allegation against Egyptian microbiologist Ayaad Assaad, a former coworker of Zack's. Assaad was fingered anonymously as a potential bioterrorist in the aftermath of September 11 but before victims were identified. Though cleared of all charges by the FBI, the fact that Assaad's accuser knew so much about his life raised suspicions that said accusations were personally motivated. That dozens of lethal samples of anthrax, ebola and hantavirus disappeared during Zack and Assaad's watch in the 1990s only compounded misgivings that Zack was responsible. Remember, all of this was widely reported in 2002, less than four months after anthrax filled the country with panic. You would think a man with a grudge against Arabs who was seen breaking into a facility where at least two dozen samples of lethal pathogens later went unaccounted would push Zack ahead of Dr. Stephen Hatfill on the "person of interest" list. As we all know, however, that was not the case. So now we sit, five years later, unfulfilled and perplexed as to how our own government failed to follow up on the obvious. What's even more frustrating is that the FBI and its friends in the press are currently misleading the public about the investigation, insisting now the anthrax was not weapons grade at all! This article from last week states that the anthrax could have been a homebrew mixture capable of being made anywhere; meanwhile, this piece from yesterday obfuscates the issue and contradicts years of prior reporting. As Mike Rivero of the news source What Really Happened said in response, "what pointed the finger at Fort Detrick as the source of the Anthrax spores used in the letters was not just the high degree of 'weaponization' of the spores, but DNA tests which showed the anthrax in the letters to be the exact same strain used at Fort Detrich. "Even if one buys this pathetic attempt to blur the issue, and believes in a kitchen-sink bioweapons lab, the fact remains that the original source spores still had to come from Fort Detrick." Again making Philip Zack a suspect. The only reason the investigation is (by MSNBC's account) "frustratingly slow" is because no one wants a resolution to this caper. It was easy enough to devastate Hatfill's life as the conclusion would be an indifferent populace. Bringing an end to this, however, would remove an avenue of terror for the Administration to manipulate. I'm reticent to mention that correlation as I'd like to think some things are sacred. President Bush thinks otherwise, however; like a white, powdery Osama bin Laden, anthrax has again become a hot topic leading into the midterm elections. And hey, isn't it handy that the now-downgraded anthrax could conceivably be made in an Al Qaeda kitchen? Never mind that five years down the road, the 9/11 attacks and the anthrax scare serve as stark reminders of the president's impotence at bringing terrorists to justice, Bush "stopped this al Qaeda cell from developing anthrax for attacks against the United States." 'Nuff said. I do not know what Philip Zack has done to deserve such special treatment from the FBI, nor do I know where the missing anthrax samples disappeared to for the better part of a decade. Maybe it's because he's not the Arab demon policymakers need to fuel animosity against "Islamofascism." Maybe he has friends in high places. Honestly, the reason isn't relevant. Next week marks the five-year anniversary of Bob Stevens' death. Stevens, a photo editor for Boca Raton-based tabloid The Sun, was the first casualty from exposure to anthrax. Let's honor his memory not with empty words and meaningless pontification, but by putting the people responsible away for life. Canon Fodder is a bi-weekly analysis of politics and society. http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/canon_fodder/01241_philip_zack _steals_ anthrax.html
Alot of GOPers are closet gays these days, so I'm not surprised. Gotta link?
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
he is a Republican. and Republicans are commonly TREASONOUS QUEERS. In BAC's case he has told us that he met Jeff Gannon. But he will not tell us if he played the boy or the girl on that date with Gannon. The man is a TREASONOUS QUEER!
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Oh my. That is damning.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Did you read the links I posted?
i've seen you ask this question probably a dozen times. why is it you never get it answered?
My theory is that he does have an answer, but the answer is a conspiracy theory so wacked out and looney that it makes his Ron Brown kookery look absolutely sane. He knows he can't give it to us without us laughing our asses off and without his reputation being destroyed on the web. So he uses chooser tactic number three and simply ignores the inconvenient question.
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Like he's ignoring me now.
what post are those links in you put up? I'll look tomorrow. that anthrax attack stuff is very serious business. There was real evidnece released that it came from US government. and I have read that this Senator from South Dakota Daschle who was voted out said in a meeting that he wanted a strong investigation of sept 11 events run by congress. He was not on board it seems with the cover-up. and his office received anthrax letters. I hate TREASONOUS QUEERS! !
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
And you said, "There is nothing to suggest this anthrax was milled at Ft Detrick. And there were other potential sources for this strain of anthrax since it was a type that was sent to labs around the world. And we know for a fact that at least once Iraq tried to obtain it (from the British). But there are other places they could have obtained it." (foot tapping...) Well?
You said something that put him on the spot. In this case he will either ignore you or try to change the subject. He's done both with you here. For people he doesn't know well he will also try a personal attack hoping the resulting fight will draw attention away from the point he wants hidden. Be thankful he didn't go that way with you.
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See my posts #360 and #364. But there are many other sources pointing to this as well.
You probably are dealing with a genuine sociopath here. And if that is the case, then it's hopeless to expect him to respond in a normal manner. I used to get people like this referred to me. They would come into my office and tell a story and I would catch them in a lie. I would immediately bounce the ones who simply told me a new lie to cover the one they just got busted for. I had discovered that you simply couldn't do anything with those types. They had lost control of truth and as a result, they has pretty much lost control of reality. Chooser seems to be one of these types.
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Like this thread, you ran off when I posted links about Ft. Detrick after you told me I didn't know what I was talking about. Is that a good example of honesty on your part, just to run away when confronted by evidence you want to remain hidden?
Rivero's site (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/anthraxsuspect.html ) actually claims this: "the FBI discovered that the end of the hunt for the sender of the Anthrax letters was NOT Dr. Assaad the Egyptian, but Dr. Zack, who is Jewish. At this point, both the FBI and the mainstream media stopped making any public comments on the case." But that's not true. It's just an anti-semitic speculation based SOLELY on the fact that he made ONE unauthorized visit to Fort Detrick back in 1992. There is nothing specifically tying him to the anthrax. Nothing. Diana, the lack of security at that place is widely known. A lab technician at Fort Detrick at the time, Charles Brown, who made an inventory of missing specimens during an investigation, is quoted in articles saying "People all over the base knew that they could come in at anytime and get on the microscope. If you had security clearance, the guard isn't going to ask you if you are qualified to use the equipment. I'm sure people used it often without our knowledge." Here are excerpts from an article that was published in the Hartford Courant. ******** From http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/hcourant.html December 20, 2001 By JACK DOLAN, DAVE ALTIMARI And LYNNE TUOHY The Hartford Courant Pink-slipped in 1997 after 11 years working with the world's deadliest toxins at the Army biodefense lab in Fort Detrick, Md., Richard Crosland reluctantly packed a box of personal items into his red Mustang and drove home. Over the next two days, Crosland returned to the fenced-off military facility twice and carted away more pictures, journals and other personal effects. Security guards, focused on keeping intruders from getting in, never asked the laid-off microbiologist what he was taking out. ``You could walk out with anything,'' Crosland said. ``It was all my personal stuff, but it could have been anything.'' As investigators focus on a handful of government labs and contractors as a possible source of the anthrax that has killed five people, security at Fort Detrick has come under a microscope, largely because it was the original supplier of anthrax to the other labs. The U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases at Fort Detrick has worked since 1980 with the Ames strain of anthrax used in the attacks. Interviews with more than a dozen current and former Fort Detrick scientists provided a rare account of what they described as a lax security system, that could have done little to prevent an employee from smuggling the ingredients for biological terrorism out of the country's premier biodefense lab. In addition, at least one longtime scientist at Fort Detrick said inventories of pathogens used in the lab were rarely kept up to date, making it difficult to determine whether dangerous substances were missing. All of the scientists interviewed by The Courant over the past week said it would be virtually impossible for an outsider to get into a ``hot zone'' lab and steal a biological agent such as anthrax. But they agreed that someone already inside the institute could have taken vials of anthrax without much trouble. ``Our security measures have always been about who gets in, rather than searching known employees as they leave,'' said Chuck Dasey, a spokesman for Fort Detrick. ``I'll bet you won't find any lab that searches their people as they leave.'' A former Fort Detrick lab director who left last year on good terms said Fort Detrick ``was always an open institution in my 17 years there and they trusted their scientists completely.'' ``If you were a person who worked in the right labs for a while,'' he said, ``you probably could easily figure out how to get vials of anthrax out of there.'' A current Fort Detrick employee said security measures have tightened somewhat since Sept. 11. Speaking on the condition of anonymity because employees have been told not to talk to the press, he added: ``If you're asking me if I could have walked out of here with anthrax two years ago or six months ago, I'd say I definitely could have.'' ... snip ... *************** So it's a big, big stretch, based only on this one recorded unauthorized visit, to assume with any certainty whatsoever that Dr Zack is the anthrax source. But being the exact same strain only means that one of dozens of locations throughout the world could have been the source of that anthrax. Because that exact strain was sent to dozens of labs and facilities around the country. The Ames strain was not ONLY at Fort Detrick. Maybe I'm the one who should be saying "crickets"? How do you explain the coincidence of Stevens working within a few miles of where the hijackers stayed in Florida, Diana? So far, you've just ignored that question, Diana. Explain to us the coincidence that the wife of the editor of the Sun showed an apartment to several of the hijackers? Explain the skin conditions that some of the hijackers had? Here's what some experts think: http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/bioter/anthraxhijackerslink.html "Source: New York Times, March 23, 2002, Report Linking Anthrax and Hijackers Is Investigated, By WILLIAM J. BROAD and DAVID JOHNSTON, The two men identified themselves as pilots when they came to the emergency room of Holy Cross Hospital in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., last June. One had an ugly, dark lesion on his leg that he said he developed after bumping into a suitcase two months earlier. Dr. Christos Tsonas thought the injury was curious, but he cleaned it, prescribed an antibiotic for infection and sent the men away with hardly another thought. But after Sept. 11, when federal investigators found the medicine among the possessions of one of the hijackers, Ahmed Alhaznawi, Dr. Tsonas reviewed the case and arrived at a new diagnosis. The lesion, he said in an interview this week, "was consistent with cutaneous anthrax. ... snip ... a recent memorandum, prepared by experts at the Johns Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies, and circulated among top government officials, has renewed a debate about the evidence. The group, which interviewed Dr. Tsonas, concluded that the diagnosis of cutaneous anthrax, which causes skin lesions, was "the most probable and coherent interpretation of the data available." The memorandum added, "Such a conclusion of course raises the possibility that the hijackers were handling anthrax and were the perpetrators of the anthrax letter attacks." ************* From http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/wp0328.html Memo on Florida Case Roils Anthrax Probe Experts Debate Theory Hijacker Was Exposed By Steve Fainaru and Ceci Connolly Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, March 29, 2002; Page A03 In January, outside of formal channels, an FBI official asked biodefense experts at Johns Hopkins University to examine a curious lead in the federal government's investigation into last fall's anthrax attacks. The experts were to evaluate the diagnosis of a Fort Lauderdale, Fla., emergency room physician who had treated one of the Sept. 11 hijackers last June. The physician, Christos Tsonas, initially thought the man had a minor infection, but after the wave of bioterrorist attacks he told the FBI that, in retrospect, he now believed the black lesion on the suspected hijacker's lower left leg was consistent with the skin form of anthrax. The FBI official told the Hopkins experts, Tara O'Toole and Thomas V. Inglesby, he was concerned the FBI had not pursued the Florida case aggressively enough. The two-page memo they prepared is now circulating among senior government officials, and its findings have stirred up debate over their accuracy and the focus of the FBI's investigation, now in its sixth month. O'Toole and Inglesby, who head the Hopkins Center for Civilian Biodefense Strategies, concluded that Tsonas's diagnosis of cutaneous anthrax was "the most probable and coherent interpretation of the data available." Since the contents of the memo became public last week, that conclusion has been endorsed by D.A. Henderson, the top bioterrorism official at the Department of Health and Human Services, and Richard Spertzel, who presided over the inspection of Iraq's bioweapons program as part of a United Nations team. ... snip ... *************** Here's another "cricket" for you, Diana. Explain Atta's interest in crop dusters? Why did he show a specific interest in crop dusters if the plan that's already been decided on and trained for is to fly commercial jets in the buildings? Do you know that Zacarias Moussaoui, in an email dated July 31, 2001, inquired of a Minnesota school concerning a 6 month or year long cropdusting course? Don't you find that a curious coincidence, Diana? Or will I just hear "crickets"? And here's one last puzzler for you to consider. When did Stevens contract the anthrax? Some seem to think it happened on September 19th from a letter (the Lopez letter) sent to AMI. But when was the letter mailed and received? MSNBC quoted Newsweek saying that the Lopez letter arrived a week before 9/11. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3067576/site/newsweek/. This site, http://www.postalmag.com/editorial14.htm, dedicated to postal employees, also says that the Lopez letter arrived the 4th. Here's another site that says the 4th: http://www.anthraxinvestigation.com/anthraxreport.htm Newsweek said they spoke to someone (unnamed) at AMI. And I've yet to find a source claiming the letter arrived on the 19th. Perhaps this might resolve the question: http://anthrax2001.blogspot.com/ "The media reports on the AMI letters confirm what the CDC reports in many important details The media reported that Bob Stevens was indeed seen by his colleagues holding a letter close to his face on September 19, 2001. It was pointed out by Phil Brennan writing for Newsmax that this letter that Stevens was seen reading had actually arrived at AMI on September 4, 2001." Phil Brennan said Stevens held it up to his face and then put it down on the keyboard (where traces of anthrax were found). So maybe Steven's contracted the anthrax on September 19th, however the letter arrived at AMI before 9/11. And if it arrived before 9/11 to coincidentally infect someone working within a few miles of where the hijackers stayed, that sort of rules out a domestic terrorist, like Zack. Right, Diana? (crickets???) Or maybe the source wasn't that letter. We really don't know. But we do know Stevens started showing symptoms some time before October 2nd, when he was hospitalized. One somewhat authoritative report (http://www.fpd.umn.edu/files/GlobalChron.pdf) said the onset of symptoms was around September 28th ... Inhalation anthrax has an uncertain incubation time (from less than a week or two to as much as 2 months). The median time is reported to be 10 days according to one study. The CDC says its generally less than 2 weeks but "due to spore dormancy and slow clearance from the lungs, the incubation period for inhalational anthrax may be prolonged." And according to CNN, Florida Health Secretary Dr. John Agwunobi advised anyone who spent more than an hour in the AMI building since August 1st to report for testing. Just to give you an idea of how uncertain officials might really be about the timeline and something to ponder.
Not ignoring you. My life just doesn't revolve around you.
Actually post #360 was mine, Diana.
I didn't run away. I was just busy doing something else. Patience, Diana, Patience. And now let's see if you run away. I've asked you to explain some strange coincidences regarding the hijackers and anthrax. Will "crickets" be all I hear?
Depends. If someone drops a coin in your head you will hear echos as the sound bounces around in an empty place.
As you have pointed out many times sometimes coincidences are just that, such as Atta's passport which was mysteriously found on the street nearby the Twin Towers. It's known that Zack hated Assaad and what about that fake note which was not written by a Muslim as they don't say "God is Great!"? Well since I don't have access to so many resources as you do I can't compete, but one day a few months after it happened, CNN actually reported they had found the suspect, Dr. Richard Zack. However it was quickly swept under the rug. At least you responded, you make a big deal if people don't respond to your posts, but then you have one set of standards for yourself and one for everyone else.
Oversight on my part. Mine was #357.
No, I don't do the disappearing act when confronted with uncomfortable information.
OH but my life does revolve around you as you are The Great One. I hang on your every word.
But Atta's passport is not a coincidence, Diana. A LOT of paper made it out of the WTC towers intact. Didn't you see the pictures? Here: ************ http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html The story... The passport of one of the hijackers was found at the WTC. It's clearly impossible for any personal effects to survive the impact and explosion, therefore it must have been planted. Our take... Our first reaction is why would they bother? What does it add to the story? There was no need to “plant passports”. We’ve never seen anyone say “they must have been on the planes because look, the NYPD found that passport”. It’s completely unnecessary, and is only ever used as evidence of an “inside job”. But could the passport have escaped destruction? Explosions are unpredictable things, it’s surprising what can survive, and there are accounts of personal effects being retrieved from other passengers. Here’s one from Flight 175. ----------- Orange County, CA., Sept. 11 - Lisa Anne Frost was 22 and had just graduated from Boston University in May 2001 with two degrees and multiple academic and service honors. She had worked all summer in Boston before coming home, finally, to California to start her new life. The Rancho Santa Margarita woman was on United Flight 175 on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, when it became the second plane to slam into the World Trade Center... Her parents, Tom and Melanie Frost, have spent two years knowing they will never understand why. A few days before the first anniversary of our daughter's murder, we were notified that they had found a piece of her in the piles and piles of gritty rubble of the World Trade Center that had been hauled out to Staten Island. It was Lisa's way, we believe, of telling us she wasn't lost. In February, the day of the Columbia tragedy, we got word they'd found her United Airlines Mileage Plus card. It was found very near where they'd found a piece of her right hip. We imagine that she used the card early on the morning of Sept. 11 to get on the plane and just stuck it in her back pocket, probably her right back pocket, instead of in her purse. They have found no other personal effects. ------------------------------ It’s a card rather than paper, and wasn’t ejected from the building, but this does demonstrate that not everything was incinerated. And it’s not alone. There are similar reports from the other crash scenes, including a drivers licence and luggage tag recovered from Flight 77 and even more from Flight 93. ------------------------------ United Airlines Flight 93 slammed into the earth Sept. 11 near Shanksville, Somerset County, at more than 500 mph, with a ferocity that disintegrated metal, bone and flesh. It took more than three months to identify the remains of the 40 passengers and crew, and, by process of elimination, the four hijackers... But searchers also gathered surprisingly intact mementos of lives lost. Those items, such as a wedding ring and other jewelry, photos, credit cards, purses and their contents, shoes, a wallet and currency, are among seven boxes of identified personal effects salvaged from the site. -------------------------------- There’s some support for the idea from other crash sites, then, but of course surviving the initial impact is only one problem. Others ask how could one passport be recovered so quickly from the rubble of the trade centre collapses? Fortunately the answer is a simple one. It wasn’t. Here’s the official account of what happened. ---------------------------------- The passport was recovered by NYPD Detective Yuk H. Chin from a male passerby in a business suit, about 30 years old. The passerby left before being identified, while debris was falling from WTC 2. The tower collapsed shortly afterwards. The detective then gave the passport to the FBI on 9/11. ----------------------------------- The suggestion here is that the passport was found amongst the debris on the street. ----------------------------------- On the ground, they saw an odd shape. Reiss looked closer: It was the nose gear of an airplane..." A part of the landing gear landed five blocks south ------------------------------------ After the first crash, the debris, plane parts and body parts were all over the area. ------------------------------------- This photo is particularly interesting. Flight 11 Seat Cushion Medium As you can see, there’s debris on the ground, but not piles of it. A passport would stand out. Better still is the caption of the photo on its original page: “On Albany Street, two blocks south of WTC 2, Two men examine a seat cushion from AA Flight 11. 8:52 a.m”. A cushion, from Flight 11? An eminently flammable object that was passed through the building, still recognisable, rather than burned to ashes? Plainly we can’t prove the caption is correct, although it would explain why two passer-bys have stopped to look (an ordinary cushion from the building probably isn’t going to attract the same attention). Meanwhile another story in the New York Times said at least two items of mail on the 9/11 planes were recovered: ---------------------------------- On Oct. 12, it arrived inside a second envelope at Mrs. Snyder's modest white house on Main Street here, and the instant she took it out and saw it, she says, ''chills just went over me.'' It was singed and crumpled. A chunk was ripped out, giving the bottom of the envelope she had sent the look of a jagged skyline. Mrs. Snyder's lyrical script had blurred into the scorched paper. The stamp, depicting a World War II sailor embracing a woman welcoming him home, was intact. Along with the letter was a note: ''To whom it may concern. This was found floating around the street in downtown New York. I am sorry if you suffered any loss in this tragedy. Sincerely, a friend in New York!'' Since then, Mrs. Snyder, a customer service representative at a grocery store, has discovered that she has one of only two pieces of mail known to have been recovered from the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center. At least one auction house has contacted her, saying she could sell the letter for tens of thousands of dollars. One Letter's Odyssey Helps Mend a Wound ------------------------------- What else was on the street, and why couldn’t a passport have made it intact? If you’re still not sure, preferring to go with intution and say survival was impossible, then consider this story from the Columbia Space Shuttle disaster. The craft broke up on re-entry, 40 miles about the earth, and debris fell over a wide area. Amongst this was one of the experiments involving tiny worms. ------------------------------- The worms and moss were in the same nine-pound locker located in the mid-deck of the space shuttle. The worms were placed in six canisters, each holding eight petri dishes. The worms, which are about the size of the tip of a pencil, were part of an experiment testing a new synthetic nutrient solution. The worms, which have a life cycle of between seven and 10 days, were four or five generations removed from the original worms placed on Columbia in January. ------------------------------- Remarkably, not only were the canisters retrieved, but the worms were still alive (the above link tells you more). Who would have believed that? Not the scientist in charge of the experiment, who said in the same story: -------------------------------- ``It's pretty astonishing to get the possibility of data after all that has happened,'' Sack said. ``We never expected it. We expected a molten mass.'' -------------------------------- In fact if we wanted to start a “Columbia space shuttle crash never happened” conspiracy site then that would make great “evidence”, because it goes against what you’d expect. And there’s a great quote, too. But then maybe intuition doesn’t tell the whole story, and more can survive explosions than you think. *************** That's been provided to you previously. What you are asking us to believe, however, is a HUGE coincidence ... that a domestic source of the anthrax just happened to pick a quiet little community in Florida just a few miles from where the 9/11 hijackers were staying out of an ENTIRE COUNTRY of quiet little communities to release his/her anthrax following 9/11 ... before he could have known the 9/11 hijackers were staying there before 9/11. So? Again, what's that got to do with him being a source of anthrax. He (along with a bunch of others) disliked Assaad for a variety of reasons. Maybe he just decided to point a finger because, like you with respect to Dr Zack, he figured Assaad's proximity to Detrick and his being Arab might be a smoking gun. Sure you do. All I have is an internet browser and a little time. Well maybe you can find that article and give me more to work with. Until then ...
Good. Maybe you won't accuse me of doing that next time.
Can you fix this thread? I think that picture did something as now you have to scroll to far to read it, so it's difficult to read.
How?
He does this all the time over at the Log Cabin forum. Screws up a thread and then just walks away and leaves it for someone else to fix.
I think you posted a big picture again which threw the thread off. I guess it's too late for you to edit it to where it fits so the thread is normal again where you don't have to scroll. I know when this happens it doesn't happen to everyone, it seems to depend of browsers and settings and such but if it happens to me there are others too who will not be able to read it, it goes way out of the margins now.
For instance I would like to read this post of your's without having to scroll back and forth 3 feet.
In the early days of company I work for, one of our lead programmers worked himself into such a state of denial and defensiveness that the entire customer support department (consisting of two, if I recall correctly) made a little Wheel-Of-Solutions: Have you tried rebooting? Try it again "People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
#355. To: BeAChooser (#354)
By the way, I couldn't help but notice that you simply ignored the amazing coincidence that the first case of anthrax would show up within a few miles of where the hijackers were staying.
#356. To: BeAChooser (#352)
Well think about it.
#357. To: BeAChooser (#347)
Also the anthrax was a special highly-milled strain produced at Ft. Detrick, MD,
#358. To: BeAChooser (#354)
#359. To: BeAChooser (#355)
#360. To: Diana (#351)
What do you mean I don't know what I'm talking about when I
said the stain was a kind produced at Ft. Detrick?
#361. To: BeAChooser (#360)
#362. To: BeAChooser (#360)
#363. To: Arator, BeAChooser (#356)
#364. To: All, BeAChooser (#357)
#365. To: Red Jones (#363)
(Edited)
Just to let you know - BAC has admitted to being a TREASONOUS QUEER!
#366. To: Arator (#365)
#367. To: Red Jones (#366)
In BAC's case he has told us that he met Jeff Gannon.
#368. To: BeAChooser, ..., Red Jones, Randge, Arator (#360)
#369. To: ... (#361)
I am curious Chooser, if one single shred of this shit that you spew is correct, then why doesn't Bush get on national TV and save his Presidency with it?
#370. To: christine (#369)
#371. To: ... (#370)
#372. To: Diana (#368)
#373. To: BeAChooser, All (#357)
The analysis revealed a number of differences that ruled out laboratories in England, and subsequent testing showed the anthrax to be identical to the original Ames strain from Fort Detrick.
#374. To: Diana (#371)
(Edited)
Like he's ignoring me now.
#375. To: Red Jones (#372)
what post are those links in you put up? I'll look tomorrow.
#376. To: Diana (#373)
#377. To: All, BeAChooser (#375)
#378. To: Diana, ALL (#364)
Simply put, the man most likely responsible for stealing the anthrax is Dr. Philip Zack.
the high degree of 'weaponization' of the spores, but DNA tests which showed the anthrax in the letters to be the exact same strain used at Fort Detrich.
Next week marks the five-year anniversary of Bob Stevens' death. Stevens, a photo editor for Boca Raton-based tabloid The Sun, was the first casualty from exposure to anthrax.
#379. To: Diana, ALL (#371)
Like he's ignoring me now.
#380. To: Diana, ALL (#375)
See my posts #360 and #364.
#381. To: Diana, ALL (#377)
Is that a good example of honesty on your part, just to run away when confronted by evidence you want to remain hidden?
#382. To: BeAChooser (#381)
"Will "crickets" be all I hear?"
#383. To: BeAChooser (#378)
How do you explain the coincidence of Stevens working within a few miles of where the hijackers stayed in Florida, Diana? So far, you've just ignored that question, Diana.
#384. To: BeAChooser (#380)
Actually post #360 was mine, Diana.
#385. To: BeAChooser (#381)
Will "crickets" be all I hear?
#386. To: BeAChooser (#379)
Not ignoring you. My life just doesn't revolve around you.
#387. To: Diana, ALL (#383)
As you have pointed out many times sometimes coincidences are just that, such as Atta's passport which was mysteriously found on the street nearby the Twin Towers.
http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:tI2PQRqfJiIJ:www.msnbc.com/local/MYOC/M324557.asp
http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011230flight931230p3.asp
Page 40
http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_statements/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf
Other accounts certainly suggest some parts of the plane were left outside the building.
Page 20, “102 Minutes”
Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn
http://zibili.com/sept11/91103.htm
(Download the full-size version by clicking here).
New York Times
December 20, 2001
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_worms_030501.html It's known that Zack hated Assaad
Well since I don't have access to so many resources as you do
CNN actually reported they had found the suspect, Dr. Richard Zack.
#388. To: Diana, ALL (#385)
No, I don't do the disappearing act when confronted with uncomfortable information.
#389. To: BeAChooser, christine (#387)
#390. To: Diana, ALL (#389)
Can you fix this thread?
#391. To: Diana (#389)
Can you fix this thread? I think that picture did something as now you have to scroll to far to read it, so it's difficult to read.
#392. To: BeAChooser (#390)
#393. To: BeAChooser (#387)
#394. To: Diana, robin (#393)
Did you read the manual? (which manual???)
Get away from there, I'll fix it.
Okay, who stole my lunch?
Why did you do that! ?
And, finally, I can do it, but it'll take about two weeks.
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