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Title: British Backtrack on Iraq death toll
Source: Independent
URL Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2396031.ece
Published: Mar 27, 2007
Author: Jill Lawless
Post Date: 2007-03-27 06:38:41 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 24479
Comments: 394

British government officials have backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion, the BBC reported yesterday.

The Government publicly rejected the findings, published in The Lancet in October. But the BBC said documents obtained under freedom of information legislation showed advisers concluded that the much-criticised study had used sound methods.

The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence.

The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636.

The conclusion, based on interviews and not a body count, was disputed by some experts, and rejected by the US and British governments. But the chief scientific adviser to the Ministry of Defence, Roy Anderson, described the methods used in the study as "robust" and "close to best practice". Another official said it was "a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones".

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#37. To: Destro (#36)

Trolls are people who go on Internet forums to be disingenuous

1. troll

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

(i'd say chooser fits the bill)

christine  posted on  2007-04-01   0:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: christine (#37)
(Edited)

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

and is disingenuous - what if you are sincere and go to a Bush loving website and try and turn people to your message?

Your definition creates a zone of like minded zombies. I can't imagine the empty headedness of such a position.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   0:55:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Destro, Christine (#36) (Edited)

Trolls are people who go on Internet forums to be disingenuous and pick fights

Would you say that making up hundreds of posts on 2 websites about "missing death certificates" - when in fact there never were any missing death certificates - is being disingenuous?

Just to recap

(1) The Health Ministry never issued any death certificates to begin with, so they can't be "missing" what they never had,

(2) The Health Ministry collects death certificates from hospitals, not from other sources, even morgues across town,

(3) Individual doctors can and do write death certificates independently of either the hospitals or the Health Ministry, and

(4) Other than hospitals, no one in Iraq appears to be under any obligation to report deaths to the Health Ministry. So, there is no reason to expect the Health Ministry to have an accruate or complete count of all or even most deaths.

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   1:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: BeAChooser, Christine, SKYDRIFTER (#23)

So how many do you think the second John Hopkins study claim died in the first year after the invasion began, AGAviator? 112,000? 2/3rds of 112,000? Just what is your number, AGAviator?

Your claim was that the first study stated that the majority of the deaths did not happen during the first year. The first study made no such conclusion and you are lying. Now you're backpedaling trying to get out of your lie.

Furthermore, the first study specifically excluded Fallujah, so any numbers from the first study are too low according to their methodology.

So are you now claiming the media decided not to report the deaths of hundreds of thousands in places like Anbar because they love Bush? ROTFLOL!

I'm claiming you're a lying troll, ROTFLOL!

During times of war and social chaos no one is going to greatly notice less than a 1% change.

Why 1%? Why not 2%? Why not 3%?

Your claim that these deaths would "grossly depopulate" any region is a lie. Now you're doing some more backpedaling.

Virtually every city in those countries was FLATTENED. That is not the case in Iraq.

The study does not claim that the "excess violent deaths" are all caused by military action, or even a majority of them are caused by military action. So fuck you, troll.

The JH definition says that almost all of those 655,000 were killed by VIOLENCE. Now you want us to believe that thugs with guns, not bombs, have killed 2% of the population.

I never said that lying troll. And the study said that 50,000 were not killed by violence.

As one can see from the map below, both Mosul and Kirkuk (Karkuk) are on the very edge of Kurdistan.

As one can see from this map, both San Diego California and El Paso Texas are on the very edge of the United States.

Both Kirkuk and Mosul are in Kurdistan, and both San Diego and El Paso are in the US.

So what's your point, fuckwit?

Oh so now you are saying the media noticed the deaths but decided not to report them? And it's because they "love Bush"? ROTFLOL!

Violent deaths include kidnappings and murders. The media only reports spectacular violent deaths from

Is Les Roberts lying when he says Iraqi doctors write death certificates, lying SOS?

Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government.

Answer the question, weasel.

Is Les Roberts lying when he says that Iraqi doctors can write death certificates independently of the central government.

Yes, or no.

Tell you what, AGAviator, why don't you get Les Roberts to get the names of the doctors on those death certificates he claims his researchers were shown and go get them to make statements. Surely they noted the names on the certificates. Surely ....

I don't provide proof to lying trolls.

But I'll tell you what.

If I prove from an unbiased source that Iraqi doctors do write death certificates, you'll be banished from this site permanently.

Not for expressing a contrary opinion, but for making repeated false statements and spamming them hundreds of times.

Now put up or shut up.

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   9:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: BeAChooser (#23) (Edited)

ROTFLOL...spam...ROTFLOL...spam...ROFTLOL...spam

Post #92
"Since 9/11, the GDP of the US has increased by something on the order of 2 TRILLION dollars a year."

BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 07 02:13:00 ET

Post #111

"You clearly made the claim that the rise in government expenditures was responsible for the tremendous increase in GDP (to the tune of 2 billion a year) by the end of the five years since 9/11."

BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 07 19:39:19 ET

Post #122

"You made the claim that the 2 trillion dollar increase per year in GDP is mostly government spending."

BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 08 12:51:48 ET

Post #122

"Yet, the GDP has gone from about 10 billion to about 12 billion a year ... a 20 percent increase"

BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 08 12:51:48 ET

Post #137

“Obviously I meant $2 trillion"

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-09 10:28:44 ET

Post #147

So I accidently wrote billion instead of trillion a few times

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-12 20:25:08 ET”

Post #83

“I suspect all of us at one time or another in the heat of a debate [!!] have switched billions and millions and even trillions.

BeALooser posted on 2006-12-01 19:19:29 ET

Post #151

“Total government spending… was roughly 2.75 trillion dollars. A 33 percent increase would amount to 900 million

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-12 22:48:21 ET”

Post #154

"OK. So I was wrong...Big deal. "

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET

Post #154

“But it is clearly what I meant" [!!]

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET

Post #154

So my language was sloppy. Sue me."

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET

Post #158

I meant billion. Sue me."

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:25:26 ET

Post #158

I'm just tired"

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:25:26 ET

Post #231

You were off by a factor of a thousand.

Yet, intelligent people [!!] still knew what I meant. Still could see my point. They could tell I just transposed two similar words in the rush to respond to you

BeALooser posted on 2006-11-30 14:39:06 ET

"You tell us when that civil war happens because so far there is no sign of it."

BeALooser posted on 2006-06-30 01:48:13 ET

"Iraqi units made up of Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis are routinely operating together quite well"

BeALooser posted on 2006-06-30 01:48:13 ET

"American soldiers are going to die whether we are in Iraq or not. That's one of the facts the American public needs to face.."

BeALooser posted on 2006-12-28 13:30:47 ET

"No one is being fooled by your claiming 9 KIA a day (which isn't close to the actual situation on average, btw) is unsustainable for a country the size of the United States."

BeALooser posted on 2006-06-29 19:16:07 ET

“I think you are a K**K if you think a country this size can't sustain 9 KIA a day in a global war."

BeALooser posted on 2007-01-21 17:27:20 ET

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   10:00:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: BeAChooser (#23)

Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government.

The Baghdad Morgue didn't report their death certificates to the central government - and the Central Government is also located in Baghdad.

Otherwise the LA Times could simply have gotten the Baghdad Morgue's total included in the Health Ministry's total.

So it appears no one other than hospitals report their deaths to the Health Ministry, and you're a lying troll.

Your false claim that hundreds of thousands of death certificates are "missing" has been absolutely and totally annihilated.

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   10:08:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: AGAviator, Christine (#39)

Would you say that making up hundreds of posts on 2 websites about "missing death certificates" - when in fact there never were any missing death certificates - is being disingenuous?

You mean like those that post how the govt placed explosives in every floor of the WTC with bull shit as evidence? They are trolls?

I like discourse - they rest of you seem to want to only hear preaching to the choir.

You don't like what BAChooser has to say counter it with your facts and he comes off the loser.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   12:38:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Destro (#43) (Edited)

You don't like what BAChooser has to say counter it with your facts and he comes off the loser.

As you well know I don't subscribe to the USG did 911 theories, though I'm convinced certain elements within the government had a pretty good idea something was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it, and instead welcomed it.

However BAC has been countered with facts time and time again and at this point it's irrefutable the Iraqi Health Ministry never attempted to track all the deaths in Iraq, and therefore no one can allege its records are anything to base a count on.

You can't really disprove that someone placed explosives in the WTC, though you can argue about how plausible that was or how much sense that makes. However you certainly can disprove the Iraqi Health Ministry counting all the deaths in Iraq, because BAC's own source explicitly states it only counted deaths from hospitals.

So BAC has been completely debunked, but I guess you're really saying is you like BAC around to counter the USG did 911 people. As far as I'm concerned, (s) he's a poor advocate for anything and isn't worth the trouble keeping around.

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   13:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: AGAviator (#44) (Edited)

So BAC has been completely debunked, but I guess you're really saying is you like BAC around to counter the USG did 911 people. As far as I'm concerned, (s) he's a poor advocate for anything and isn't worth the trouble keeping around.

No, that is not what I am saying - the notion that someone you disagree with is a troll is insane to me. I find that even more a dangerous mind trip than someone who has a stupid position.

And I don't know what you mean by "You can't really disprove that someone placed explosives in the WTC" - of course you can. Absence of evidence is not evidence.

You don't like his position so you are reverting to your Freerepublic origins by labeling a dissenter as a troll to shut him up - what next, comrade? Bannings? Purgings? Exile to the gulag?

PS: As you well know I don't subscribe to the USG did 911 theories, though I'm convinced certain elements within the government had a pretty good idea something was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it, and instead welcomed it.

Sort of my position, though some here swear - as you saw yourself - that I was maybe part of the 9/11 govt team somehow? Why would they hold such an opinion? Because I must be a govt agent to dare question their group mind think. That is dangerous fucking thinking that needs to be beaten the hell out of people. I never knew Americans (both left and right) were such zombie-sheep, that any dissent drives them loopier than Maoists during the Cultural Revolution.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   14:14:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Destro (#45)

You don't like his position so you are reverting to your Freerepublic origins by labeling a dissenter as a troll to shut him up - what next, comrade? Bannings? Purgings? Exile to the gulag?

No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.

Free speech does not encompass people getting in your face as you're walking down the street, or banging on your car window as you're stopped in traffic. The nuisance cost vs. the freedom benefit must be considered.

Now of course that should apply across the board, and not just to one individual. But two wrongs don't make a right.

You may say there's a bozo filter for that. But why do I need to limit myself instead of the troll being limited? That's like turning the streets over to the riff-raff, then telling the property owners to stay inside their houses and they'll be safe.

AGAviator  posted on  2007-04-01   15:37:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: AGAviator (#46)

when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.

Exactly. How many times must the same nonsense be refuted? For example, the other day he spammed a 9/11 thread about the amount of time the towers fell. It turns out that 10 seconds is the govt's # for WTC1. It's in their report. It is also in the seismic data. But, the 9/11 truthers use the videos and put it at 14 seconds, which, BTW, can still be proven to be most unnatural, and why we say close to freefall; the figure for freefall in a vacuum is 9.2 seconds.

So, after reposting the same info that has been posted many, many times about this subject, he finally slithers off.

How is that a debate? It isn't. He's just a nuisance as you say. He isn't honest, he's just a liar and not even a good one.

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-01   15:45:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: AGAviator, robin (#46)

No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.

That differs how from people on here that claim the WTC were blown up from the inside?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   22:03:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: robin (#47)

and evil too. :P

christine  posted on  2007-04-01   22:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Destro (#48)

No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.

That differs how from people on here that claim the WTC were blown up from the inside?

The govt's explanation of 9/11 has been proven to be laughable, and not just on this forum. Exploring ideas about what really happened is useful, because learning the truth is always a good idea.

A poster who spams threads with the exact same nonsense is not useful, especially when the same "arguments" have already been refuted many times on this forum.

His latest attempt was downright amusing. He spammed a 9/11 thread with BS about how many seconds it took the towers to fall. Then when the facts were presented that the 10 seconds originated in the govt's 9/11 Commission report, and that the 9/11 truth movement states it took about 14 seconds (explaining that the 10 seconds came from the govt report and seismic data), he said well the govt didn't understand and wasn't told or shown the right info. Then he uses a 9/11 truth website's photo, ignoring their detailed explanation (which included how 9.2 seconds would be freefall in a vacuum and about air resistance, etc.), and instead spins and distorts the photo to fit the govt's explanation. He of course ignores all the basic math & physics used by that same site. He closes by saying we're not experts so we can't possibly understand, that we believe fairy tales and just look foolish.

Who looks foolish? Who believes fairy tales? And why would anyone want to read anymore of his posts? All he does is distract from any meaningful discussion. He's a time waster, a troll.

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-01   22:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: robin (#50)

The govt's explanation of 9/11 has been proven to be laughable, and not just on this forum. Exploring ideas about what really happened is useful, because learning the truth is always a good idea.

So that differs from the truth as someone else like Bachooser sees it how? You claim the govts version of 9/11 is bogus he claims the medical report on the number of deaths in Iraq is bogus.

You both have controversial views - both should be heard not banned or accused of trolling.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   22:54:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Destro (#51)

Where logic is replaced by volumes of the exact same copy/paste (refuted by many on many threads), then curtailing such a poster is reasonable. He just disrupts any worthwhile discussion, which is part of his schtick.

You agree with the govt's story about 9/11, so I'm not surprised that you are defending him. Do you agree or disagree with the medical reports on the number of Iraqis who have died since we invaded Iraq? Are you also in agreement with BAC on this subject?

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-01   23:05:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: robin (#52) (Edited)

Where logic is replaced by volumes of the exact same copy/paste (refuted by many on many threads), then curtailing such a poster is reasonable. He just disrupts any worthwhile discussion, which is part of his schtick.

You 9/11 truther types do the exact same thing you accuse bachooser of doing.

A shitload of people have died in Iraq and a shit load of people have fled Iraq for other countries as refugess - some say up to 2 million Iraqis have fled Iraq. I find that a more telling figure than how many have died. In America the Iraq war's destructive toll is kept hidden by focusing only on death tolls when looking at the wounded figures really tells you the death rate is on par with Vietnam (the wounded in Iraq survive wounds thanks to medical technologies that would have resulted in deaths in the Vietnam era).

I can't speak to the London report on the number of deaths because I have not studied it in part because I know the death toll has been huge so I have not bothered to check one way or the other. I assume it is accurate. That I assume it is accurate does not make it so but I will accept the figure until I find evidence refuting it - if I bother to look that is.

Just to set you straight - The only part of the 9/11 story I accept from the govt is the 'mechanical' ones not the rest - not on the relationship of the 9/11 cell to US intellugence and not what the status of the information the govt had on them before that day.

Are you also in agreement with BAC on this subject? - It shocks me you guys don't see what I am accusing you of. You assume because I defend a person's right to speak his mind that I agree with him. If you were being accused of trolling by spreading your version of 9/11 I would be defending your right to do so as well. As long as I get to debate you that is all I care about - THE RIGHT TO DISCOURSE!

America is doomed - it has become populated by people too Balkanized in the head to be able to carry out spirited discourse. I thought this thinking was limited to neocon-Bushbot websites but I see it is a mindset that the other sides also have.

Pity.

Is there a website both left and right and anything in between can go and discuss anything and everything in a spirited manner without fear they will be banished or blocked or made uncomfortable?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   23:22:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Destro (#53)

You 9/11 truther types do the exact same thing you accuse bachooser of doing.

If that's what you really think then either you haven't been attending to his postings or you really must enjoy the LP troll-style.

This forum also believes in the right to discourse, but BAC doesn't discuss, he spams. There is a difference.

Many posters on this forum were banned from FR and then LP where putting up with quite a few like BAC was the norm. The moderators didn't like the truth, they preferred an army of paid shills and trolls who agree with the Bush regime about everything. This forum became a place of refuge from those govt sponsored sites.

The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard. You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP.

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-01   23:38:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: robin (#54)

The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard. You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP.

So you are for limiting discourse.

You just want to make this place like Freerepublic but only for your kind only.

I was - sadly - right all along.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-01   23:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Destro (#55)

Or maybe we just don't want it to turn into another LP or FR, which sadly appears to be what you would prefer.

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-01   23:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Destro (#55) (Edited)

what are you bitching about, Destro? BAC is posting here, is he not? he's not being censored. he is being blocked by choice of some of the individual members. if you don't like this forum, its free speech policy which includes the right to call someone a troll, and its members (which you are always criticizing and painting with a broad brush), then why don't you leave? you've expressed your distaste for it and us over and over. btw, you are certainly free to create and fund a forum of your own.

christine  posted on  2007-04-02   0:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: christine (#57)

I see an attempt to ban him.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-02   0:45:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: robin (#56)

Or maybe we just don't want it to turn into another LP or FR, which sadly appears to be what you would prefer.

You are just the flip side of FR. Same mindset. Like how the neocons still think like Marxist even though they embraced the conservative cause - they carry out their cause in a Marxist manner.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-02   0:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Destro, robin, christine (#55)

The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard. You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP.

So you are for limiting discourse.

Your conclusion does not logically follow what robin wrote.

She said "You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP" meaning, they are the dominant shills there who tolerate little dissent, where as here he is a minority opinion but is permitted to express his views even if most despise him.

She never advocated limiting speech based on ideology, and your attempt to nip and tuck her words for that purpose came up real short. No grownup would ever extrapolate such a ridiculous non sequitur from her posts, and how you managed it is a mystery to all.

And, did I mention that you're a rude little twit?

“Free trade is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is free trade.”__Sir John Bowring

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-02   0:52:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: christine, robin (#57) (Edited)

Destro is on LF at the exact same moment calling people names over the exact same issue as he is on another thread here!

His OCD is easy to see.

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_history&Number=295383552&t=-1#Post295383552

“Free trade is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is free trade.”__Sir John Bowring

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-02   1:05:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: HOUNDDAWG (#61)

I have to hand it to you 'dawg. Anyone who can navigate, and actually read comments at LF, has a special ability. And on top of their hideous software, the more entrenched members get to rate other people. From top to bottom, that forum is a mystery to me.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-04-02   8:25:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: HOUNDDAWG, christine, robin (#61)

estro is on LF at the exact same moment calling people names over the exact same issue as he is on another thread here!

People who believe in underground UFO-Nazi bases in the South Pole need be called names. I think they and other people who reject science in the name of their religion or ideology are destroying this country.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-02   9:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Jethro Tull (#62)

I have to hand it to you 'dawg. Anyone who can navigate, and actually read comments at LF, has a special ability. And on top of their hideous software, the more entrenched members get to rate other people. From top to bottom, that forum is a mystery to me.

Nothing I can add.

It was my home and host to my favorite vanity threads when there was an effort to uphold it as a libertarian resource. But, it's not as much fun anymore, at least for me.

There's a question whether or not Liberty Forum was (or is) a SCHOOL OF THE AMERICAS/WHINSEC or some other snoopy govt agency project. It's been strange enough at times, but I can't say for certain either way.

Everything I submitted was cleared for govt consumption and I didn't expose myself, but others did and still do.

“Free trade is Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ is free trade.”__Sir John Bowring

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-02   13:10:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Destro, AGAviator, ALL (#30)

Why is it our business?

Saddam's activities and what happened on 9/11 and thereafter made it our business.

You child killing Americans need to mind your own business.

Yeah. Maybe we should have stayed out of WW2 too.

Thanks to American sanctions

No, thanks to Saddam doing everything he could to get around those sanctions. Thanks to Saddam not giving up on WMD. Thanks to France, Germany and Russia and officials of the UN letting themselves be bribed to look the other way as Saddam diverted funds from the food for oil program and bought substandard food and medicine in exchange for large kickbacks. Sorry, but the ONLY one responsible for the deaths of innocents in Iraq after 91 was Saddam. The hardship could have been over in a year had Saddam just come clean and truly given up his WMD aspirations.

"We also don't know what al-Zarqawi and his like would have been up to in Iraq now had we not invaded."

Dead at the hands of the secular Arab nationalist Ba'athists - many of whom are Christians - if he acted up.

That doesn't wash, Destro. He had already acted up. Several times. And the Iraqi regime turned a blind eye to his activities. And continued to do so.

"We know they had planned a mass casualty attack on Jordan (and the US embassy in Jordan) from Baghdad."

I plan on killing every NATO soldier in Kosovo from Belgrade. Wishing a plan is not implementing a plan.

Apparently you don't pay attention to the news. About a dozen al-Qaeda were caught in Jordan with the materials (vehicles, explosives, chemicals) needed to carry out the plot that they themselves admitted was funded and planned by al-Zarqawi from Iraq. They admitted they'd met him in BAGHDAD before going to Syria to carry out the plot. It was more than a "plan". It came close to being reality and killing tens of thousands of people, including many Americans. And one reason it may have not succeeded is the invasion that put al-Zarqawi on the run and made it difficult if not impossible to monitor the progress of the plot and its detailed execution.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   20:27:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Destro, ALL (#31)

Makes no difference

Dead and not dead is a huge difference. And in one case it means John Hopkin's results are bogus and all those championing those results have been deceived. Turn Iraq into a successful, peaceful democracy and many of those who fled will return. They won't be doing that if they are in the grave.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   20:29:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: AGAviator, ALL (#35)

Hey dumbfuck.

Fuck you lying troll.

I've already told you, fucking troll,

Are you typical of 4um posters, AGAviator?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   20:31:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: christine, Destro, ALL (#37)

One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument

christine ...

I haven't posted anything but sourced facts and sound logic, which I've been more than willing to defend, to this forum. I haven't used any foul language. I haven't called anyone any labels. If that's provocative, so be it. It you think that's disruptive of your forum, your forum has a serious problem.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   20:36:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: BeAChooser (#67)

Are you typical of 4um posters,

Put down the TV, Ooser, eat some toast and release yourself from the cult of hannity. What's that called, 'reflexive parallelism' something?

"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar

Dakmar  posted on  2007-04-02   20:47:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: BeAChooser (#68)

I haven't posted anything but sourced facts and sound logic

And the reason you still support AmeriKan troops in Iraq is what?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-04-02   20:58:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: AGAviator, ALL (#40)

Your claim was that the first study stated that the majority of the deaths did not happen during the first year.

I claimed no such thing. You can't even read. What I said is that the second study claimed to confirm the results of the first study. The first study claimed that 100,000 died in the first 18 months after the invasion. The second study claimed the number was 112,000. So for you to suggest that uncounted deaths in the first year explains away the problem of 550,000 missing death certificates is faulty logic.

Furthermore, the first study specifically excluded Fallujah, so any numbers from the first study are too low according to their methodology.

Again, you demonstrate that you don't understand statistics. They did not exclude Fallujah in the first study. They threw out the data point as a flyer but they did include the population of Fallujah in their overall estimate of 100,000 dead.

The study does not claim that the "excess violent deaths" are all caused by military action, or even a majority of them are caused by military action.

Here's how JH classified them:

Violent, coalition - 31%
Violent, other - 24%
Violent, unknown - 45%

Gunshot - 56%
Car bomb - 13%
Other explosive/ordinance - 14%
Air Strike - 13%
Violent, unknown - 2%
Accident - 2%

Do you really want us to believe that most of those claimed deaths ... almost as large of percentage of population as died in WW2 in Germany and Japan due to the strategic bombing of cities ... died due to guns in Iraq? And no one bothered to report this slaughter in either the MSM or Arab media?

So fuck you, troll.

Are you typical of 4um posters?

Now you want us to believe that thugs with guns, not bombs, have killed 2% of the population.

I never said that lying troll. And the study said that 50,000 were not killed by violence.

Actually, the list I cited from the JH study suggests that 1.4% of the population has been killed by GUNS. And you want us to believe that and believe that no one has reported this over the last 5 years.

So what's your point, fuckwit?

Are you typical of 4um posters? And if you can't see my point, AGAviator, I suspect it is because you don't want to see my point. But that's ok. I think any visitor to 4um who read what I posted about Kurdistan, Mosul and Kirkuk will understand.

Is Les Roberts lying when he says Iraqi doctors write death certificates, lying SOS?

"Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government."

Answer the question, weasel.

I think I did. Funny that Les Roberts doesn' t name any of these doctors who he only now claims wrote death certificates without telling anyone else.

If I prove from an unbiased source that Iraqi doctors do write death certificates, you'll be banished from this site permanently.

Not for expressing a contrary opinion, but for making repeated false statements and spamming them hundreds of times.

ROTFLOL! If that were a forum rule, this site would be empty.

Now put up or shut up.

I'm not the one with the missing death certificates and the missing doctors saying they wrote certificates but didn't report them to authorities.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/05/wirq05.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/05/ixworld.html "Under Iraqi medical law the morgue does not deal with any person who has died from natural causes as they can have their death certificate issued by a doctor."

Hey AGAviator ... doesn't that imply that according to Iraqi law only the morgue can issue death certificates if the cause isn't natural?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   21:30:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: AGAviator, Destro, ALL (#44)

However you certainly can disprove the Iraqi Health Ministry counting all the deaths in Iraq,

I've never claimed they did. I've said on numerous occasions that the total from the LATimes article might be off a factor of 2 or even 3. But not a factor of 10. To believe 10, you have to believe a lot of nonsense. It is just as ridiculous a claim as believing bombs brought down the WTC towers.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   21:34:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: AGAviator, Destro, ALL (#46)

No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.

And would that apply to posters who make false claims about the WTC collapse and the damage at the Pentagon? Like claiming a collapse time of 10 seconds? Like claiming a hole in the face only 20 feet wide? Will you insist they be booted from 4um too, AGAviator?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   21:36:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: robin, AGAviator, Destro, ALL (#47)

robin is a good example of who I mean, AGAviator. You prepared to insist she be kicked off 4um? Because when she says "10 seconds is the govt's # for WTC1" she's being deceptive and the falseness of what she's saying has been proven over and over. The 9/11 commission report is NOT the Govt's number. The NIST report gives the "govt's" number. And irregardless of what is in the govt's report, the videos and images that have been posted from various sources prove the towers didn't collapse in 10 seconds. So is robin to be booted, AGAviator, for continuing this 10 second nonsense? Just curious.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   21:40:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: robin, ALL (#50)

9/11 truth movement states it took about 14 seconds

But that's NOT what you were claiming, robin. Over and over you claimed it took 10 seconds. That it was FREE FALL. You posted sources showing that 10 seconds was impossible becuase free fall in a vacuum would be only about 9-10 seconds. To call the collapse free fall if it was 14 or 15 seconds is deceptive. And your not acknowledging that not one structures expert or demolition expert in the world has a problem with a 15 second collapse time is also telling.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   21:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Destro, robin, christine, ALL (#53)

A shitload of people have died in Iraq and a shit load of people have fled Iraq for other countries as refugess - some say up to 2 million Iraqis have fled Iraq.

That's probably true from what I've read.

As long as folks stick to facts, rather than deliberate lies, I have no problem.

I can't speak to the London report on the number of deaths because I have not studied it in part because I know the death toll has been huge so I have not bothered to check one way or the other. I assume it is accurate.

That's an assumption you'd be better off not making. Because the John Hopkins' study (it was just reported in the Lancet) is filled with all sorts of problems. I listed SOME of them in posts 4 and 5 of this thread. Problems that for the most part have been simply ignored by the defenders of the study.

The only part of the 9/11 story I accept from the govt is the 'mechanical' ones not the rest - not on the relationship of the 9/11 cell to US intellugence and not what the status of the information the govt had on them before that day.

And I haven't expressed an opinion one way or the other on the latter. I have said there are good questions that deserve answers. But that one won't ever get them answered if one start out insisting on nonsense that is easily debunked.

It shocks me you guys don't see what I am accusing you of.

It shocks me that the folks here don't see that I'm actually trying to help them be more credible ... so those other questions about 9/11 can get answered.

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   23:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: robin, Destro, ALL (#54)

The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard.

So can we agree, robin, that the truth is that the collapse of the towers took about 15 seconds, not 10 seconds, and was therefore not a free fall collapse?

BeAChooser  posted on  2007-04-02   23:14:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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