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Title: British Backtrack on Iraq death toll
Source:
Independent
URL Source: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2396031.ece
Published: Mar 27, 2007
Author: Jill Lawless
Post Date: 2007-03-27 06:38:41 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 30602
Comments: 394
British government officials have backed the methods used by scientists who concluded that more than 600,000 Iraqis have been killed since the invasion, the BBC reported yesterday. The Government publicly rejected the findings, published in The Lancet in October. But the BBC said documents obtained under freedom of information legislation showed advisers concluded that the much-criticised study had used sound methods. The study, conducted by researchers from Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore and the Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad, estimated that 655,000 more Iraqis had died since March 2003 than one would expect without the war. The study estimated that 601,027 of those deaths were from violence. The researchers, reflecting the inherent uncertainties in such extrapolations, said they were 95 per cent certain that the real number of deaths lay somewhere between 392,979 and 942,636. The conclusion, based on interviews and not a body count, was disputed by some experts, and rejected by the US and British governments. But the chief scientific adviser to the Ministry of Defence, Roy Anderson, described the methods used in the study as "robust" and "close to best practice". Another official said it was "a tried and tested way of measuring mortality in conflict zones".
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#18. To: AGAviator, BeAChooser, scrapper2 (#17)
BeAChooser, Iraq is a hellhole of Bush and Clinton's making. It has been depopulated - especially among Christians and others of the educated class fleeing for their lives.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
And the fact that the other 13%, who were RANDOMLY not asked, should have been able to provide death certificates 92% of the time ... if the study is valid ... is BASIC STATISTICS. Then where are they? Because if the John Hopkins study is valid than 92 percent of those who might claim deaths should have had a death certificate issued. And there is no record of that. You are wrong. Haven't you read the second study? It states "In 2004 we estimated that somewhere in excess of 100,000 deaths had occurred from the time of the invasion until August 2004. Using data from the 2006 survey to look at the time included in the 2004 survey, we estimated that the number of excess deaths during that time was about 112,000" Now that was over an 18 month period. So I think its safe to say John Hopkins concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in the first TWELVE months. But all those deaths were not evenly distributed throughout the country. They occurred mostly in a few regions. Where surely losses in the hundreds of thousands would have been noticed by a journalist or two. Surely ... Although an incorrect way to look at the problem, this number in itself is remarkable. Because it is only slightly different than the percentage of the German population (or the Japanese population) that died in WW2 ... and that was after strategic bombing of virtually every major city in those countries. Those cities were literally flattened or burned to the ground in many cases. Yet you want us to believe that Iraq, whose cities are mostly still standing, has had comparable losses. It's not a lie. In fact, I've even posted articles to the forum showing that Kurdistan is mostly peaceful and doing quite well now that Saddam is gone. As usual, you simply ignored those articles and regurgitate the same unsupported assertions. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/16/60minutes/main2486679.shtml http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc0110WT100.html http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/11/02/kurds_ed3_.php But we are talking VIOLENT deaths ... and those get noticed. Not at all. STATISTICALLY there is no way that the number of deaths has been a constant 546 per day since the war began. Some days would be higher and some lower. And as what I posted shows, even if you assumed that most days would only see deaths of 381 per day (which is far more than has ever been reported), you'd have to have a significant number of days (20) with 10,000 deaths. And surely that would have been noticed and reported by someone. I haven't changed my story at all. Les Roberts is a liar and you're unable to name even ONE doctor who says he/she wrote death certificates in Iraq and didn't report them. But you don't just need one doctor, you need thousands of doctors doing that to even begin to account for all the death certificates that John Hopkins claims exist but for which there is no record whatsoever. But you don't even have one.
That may or may not be true. But in any case, that's not the depopulation that AGAviator and John Hopkins are claiming. They aren't talking about folks fleeing for their lives. They are claiming that hundreds of thousands were KILLED in certain regions of the country ... and noone noticed. Noone recorded that. Noone photographed it. Not even the insurgency which could have used such a horrific fact to force us out of the country via world opinion.
That's not how basic statistics works, numbskull. Furthermore, no one ever said that the other 13% couldn't have provided them had they been asked. With the people who they were issued to, you fucking idiot. So who's "missing" them, anyway? Are you alleging the people who receive them are "missing" them - because that is the only way in which a claim of them being "missing" would make any sense. The fact there is "no record of that" with a central government that by its own admission "grossly undercounted" the number of actual deaths does not equate to them being "missing." This is just more of your repetitive spamming demaguguery. You can't even read, then you try to bluster your way out of it by lying. Saying that "somewhere in excess of 100,000 deaths had occurred" does not equate to saying "the first John Hopkins study concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in that first year" In fact, it says precisely the opposite. Do you know the difference between "in excess" and "less than," dummy? Having been shown the absurdity of your claim that 650,000 excess deaths would "grossly depopulate" the country, you now retreat to your fall-back position of "The media hates Bush." It is a correct way to look at it because it puts your exaggerated claims in their proper perspective. During times of war and social chaos no one is going to greatly notice less than a 1% change. The JH definition of "excess deaths" is not limited to people who are killed by military action, brainless troll. I've already cited the cities where there has been violence that regularly makes the headlines. By whom? The "embedded media?" People "noticing" and "reporting" are two different things. More "The media hates Bush so it couldn't have happened." Is Les Roberts lying when he says Iraqi doctors write death certificates, lying SOS? Nobody says there is "no record of them whatsoever" except you, so you are the liar. The LA Times said that the Health Ministry attempts to track death certificates issued by hospitals. There is absolutely nothing said about the Health Ministry tracking death certificates issued by any other source. So fuck you, lying troll.
Don't be disingenuous BeAChooser, you support the American mission in Iraq. So you run flak for it on here. That is fine - just be honest about it. By the way - I am also leery of the numbers - because they are based on statistical projections. Statistical numbers used to determine deaths etc is bullshit as the late great Slobodan Milosevic showed in his cross examination during his kangaroo trial. With that said - the death toll clearly is high in Iraq due to America's invasion and occupational aftermath. I saw it coming - America could not stop (or did not wish to stop) Albanian Muslims from killing and driving out a quarter of a million Christian Serbs from Kosovo so I could not see how they would have prevented the rise in communal violence in Iraq from coming about. I used to laugh and fight vigorously with the idiot Bushbots on Freerepublic who kept bringing up Germany and Japan as reasons why Iraq would turn out the same.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Yes it is, AGAviator. The 87% are a RANDOM sample from a group of about 600 claiming deaths. Actually, a very big sample from that group. STATISTICALLY, what holds true for them should hold true for the 13% which were not sampled. If 92 percent of the 87% could supposedly provide death certificates, then BASIC STATISTICS tells us that about 92% of the 13% should also have been able to provide death certificates. To claim otherwise is to display ignorance. Sure thing, AGAviator. You go on believing that. Just like you INSISTED that this graph shows housing prices dropped 16% between 2005 and 2006. So how many do you think the second John Hopkins study claim died in the first year after the invasion began, AGAviator? 112,000? 2/3rds of 112,000? Just what is your number, AGAviator? So are you now claiming the media decided not to report the deaths of hundreds of thousands in places like Anbar because they love Bush? ROTFLOL! Why 1%? Why not 2%? Why not 3%? Do you think no one greatly noticed the loss of 2% of Germany's population? Or 2% of Japans? And look at the destruction that was necessary to kill 2% of those populations. Virtually every city in those countries was FLATTENED. That is not the case in Iraq. The JH definition says that almost all of those 655,000 were killed by VIOLENCE. Now you want us to believe that thugs with guns, not bombs, have killed 2% of the population. And no journalist noticed? No one documented this slaughter? ROTFLOL! Yes, you mentioned Mosul and Kirkuk. Let's examine that claim As one can see from the map below, both Mosul and Kirkuk (Karkuk) are on the very edge of Kurdistan. Let's look at the population of Kurdistan (in Iraq). Kurdistan nominally consists of 6 Governates. Three are almost entirely Kurdish and 3 have mixed populations (these are in dispute). Here is a list of the population in each starting with the three that are almost entirely Kurdish. Sulaymaniyah Governate - 1.8 million Arbil Governate - 1.4 million Dahuk Governate - 0.5 million Diyala Governate - 1.3 million At-Ta'mim Governate (containing Kirkuk) - 1.0 million Ninawa Governorate (containing Mosul) - 2.6 million Now 70% of At Ta'mim is Kurdish. But only 19 percent of Ninawa is Kurdish. The population of Mosul is about 1.7 million of which Kurds are only a small fraction. Although there have been demands by Kurds to include Mosul in the Kurdish regional government, to say Mosul is Kurdish is a bit of a stretch. In any case, one can see that Mosul and Kirkuk combined comprise only about 16% of the overall Kurdish population (in Iraq) and only a small fraction of the total land area (in Iraq). So a claim that violence in these two cities negates the peace that is in place most everywhere else in Kurdistan is simply ridiculous. By someone. Yet this claimed slaughter went unnoticed ... even by arab journalists. In fact, it is still going unnoticed, since to the media a 100 deaths occurring in a day is still remarkable (when JH has been claiming there was an average of nearly 600 a day every day since the war began). Oh so now you are saying the media noticed the deaths but decided not to report them? And it's because they "love Bush"? ROTFLOL! Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government. Tell you what, AGAviator, why don't you get Les Roberts to get the names of the doctors on those death certificates he claims his researchers were shown and go get them to make statements. Surely they noted the names on the certificates. Surely .... Thank you for arguing like so many other 4umers. Here's some more food for thought. ************ http://washparkprophet.blogspot.com/2006/03/iraqi-provinces-map.html Coalition casualties have not been distributed equally by province. This source attributes as many casualties as it can manage from the U.S. led coalition as follows (which is only a small part of total casulties, but is a fairly good indicator of where hot conflict is in Iraq), and is followed by a regional description (SE Iraq=Sumer, N Iraq mostly Kurdistan, remainder central Iraq): *Anbar 808 (Central) Home to cities of Fallujah, Ramadi and Abu Ghraib. ********** Now note where the bulk of the casualties were. In Anbar and Baghdad. Places like At Tamim and Niveveh have been relatively quite. Most of Kurdistan VERY quite. So the bulk of the Iraqi deaths would likely have occurred in Anbar and Baghdad. If logic prevails. And since Bagdad's death certificates have been counted, that leaves only Anbar to account for the bulk of the missing 550,000 death certificates. Since Anbar accounts for 60% of the casualties in the rest of Iraq outside Baghdad, it follows that Anbar should account for about 60% of the missing 550,000 certificates. That's 330,000. Now the population of Anbar is 1.3 million. So you are asking us to believe that 25% of Anbars population was killed between the beginning of the invasion and July of last year. And no one noticed. Sure, AGAviator. ROTFLOL!
Focus. Think about what you are trying to say before hitting the "post" button. Proof read what you have written and delete anything that does not support your thesis. Concise and clear communication is the key to getting your ideas across.
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this whole argument gets tiresome........supposedly a lot of the supporters of this war are *pro life* people. I would think those people would be horrified if there was ONE death caused by an illegal and immoral invasion and occupation of another country. every dead iraqi was once a living, breathing child of god. if our actions have caused the death of 300,000 or 600,000 or ten, it's wrong. period.
I'm not being disingenuous. I'm arguing a specific point. That one won't find the truth by starting with misinformation and lies. The John Hopkins study is an obvious fraud. And those who continue to use it to try and make their case about the evil American presence in Iraq only discredit their own efforts. But we don't have a "what-if" crystal ball. We can't know what the death toll in Iraq (or elsewhere) would look like today had we not invaded. We do know that the medical situation in Iraq was very serious. The UN and WHO have said that many thousands were dying EVERY MONTH due to lack of food, medicine, clean water, and other items. And they were dying because Saddam was continuing his efforts to develop and keep banned weapons and because he was using the billions he got from legal sales of oil (which were supposed to fund such things) on those weapon programs, his Republican Thugs, building more palaces, bribing UN and non-coalition government officials, feeding the hedonistic lifestyles of his boys and hiding billions of dollars in private bank accounts and between the walls of buildings. We also don't know what al-Zarqawi and his like would have been up to in Iraq now had we not invaded. We know they had planned a mass casualty attack on Jordan (and the US embassy in Jordan) from Baghdad. We know they wouldn't have stopped with just that attack. Others were in the works. And Saddam was turning a blind eye to it all. Saddam's regime was actively helping the Palestinians. There were suicide bomb factories found in Iraq during the invasion. There were foreigners of all types found in Iraq, many of them telling our soldiers they were being trained by Saddam's regime. We don't have a crystal ball to know what havoc and loss of life these types of people might have created had we not invaded ... had Iraq instead been a safe haven much like Afghanistan was for so many years. We also don't know what mischief Saddam would be up to now had we not invaded. We can almost be sure that the sanctions and oversight of Iraq would have ended. That with a clean bill of health from the UN inspectors and the desire of countries like Germany, France and Russia to get on with lucrative oil, equipment and weapons contracts, Iraq would be rearming. We know that Saddam's regime intended to (and quickly could) reconstitute large portions of its WMD arsenal. It kept the plans and critical components to do it. So where would we be now had that happened? Would Iraqis really be any better off or would they be more fodder for another of Saddam's misadventures?
The statistics show that Anbar has been depopulated by that amount - the discrepancy has to do with how you interpret the data - are the missing people mostly dead or mostly refugees who fled? In any case, BeAChooser - are you arguing for justification of the Iraqi mission because fewer people in your estimation have been killed?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Ten? How about one? Would you do NOTHING if action might result in one death?
It's makes a big difference. If the missing are mostly refugees who fled, then someone in the John Hopkin's study LIED about the death certificates. And you will not find truth or justice on a foundation of lies.
We can't know what the death toll in Iraq (or elsewhere) would look like today had we not invaded. Why is it our business? Are you for humanitarian wars? You child killing Americans need to mind your own business. We do know that the medical situation in Iraq was very serious. The UN and WHO have said that many thousands were dying EVERY MONTH due to lack of food, medicine, clean water, and other items. Thanks to American sanctions that only American wanted to keep on - see again child killing Americans. We also don't know what al-Zarqawi and his like would have been up to in Iraq now had we not invaded. Dead at the hands of the secular Arab nationalist Ba'athists - many of whom are Christians - if he acted up. We know they had planned a mass casualty attack on Jordan (and the US embassy in Jordan) from Baghdad. I plan on killing every NATO soldier in Kosovo from Belgrade. Wishing a plan is not implementing a plan. We also don't know what mischief Saddam would be up to now had we not invaded. Maybe he would have done us a favor and invaded Iran like the last time when Rumsfled visited him and thanked him for his efforts. "The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Not really - its interpretation. Makes no difference - does not make things better - does not make America a better occupier.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
kinda sums up the war.........
Or you LIED about Johns Hopkins. Guess we have to decide who has the credibility here. It is Saturday afternoon. Why don't you just relax. What's that song you guys sing? Have a tequila, Have a tequila, Have a tequila, Right now.
Bunch of internet bums ... grand jury --- opium den ! ~ byeltsin
Tell us, oh great liar, what figure do you consider reliable. We all know that you're slimey and cowardly enough that you cut-n-paste all day long; how 'bout taking a firm position? What number would you accept as reliable - knowing that one, ten or a hundred still amount to disgusting American War Crimes? Take a position, BAC, you flaming asshole!
Hey dumbfuck. Here's how stupid you are. You've been spamming for hundreds of posts about "missing death certificates" based on the completely false premise that you expect the Iraqi Health Ministry to have records of all deaths in Iraq. The LA Times article makes it quite clear that the Iraqi Health Ministry only tracks death certificates issued by hospitals, and by its own admission it couldn't even do that and completely ignored most of the country for more than a year. What's more, the Health Ministry didn't even count the 30,000 death certificates issued by the Baghdad Morgue right across town. Otherwise, the Times could have gotten its 50,000 total just by asking the Health Ministry for the total instead of going to 2 places. So all your hundreds of posts about "missing death certificates" are pure crap from beginning to end. There's not a word of truth in any of them. I've already told you, fucking troll, that when you insult people's intelligence with your mindless spam, you can expect to be insulted right back.
Trolls are people who go on Internet forums to be disingenuous and pick fights - not by posting what you disagree with.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
1. troll One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument (i'd say chooser fits the bill)
and is disingenuous - what if you are sincere and go to a Bush loving website and try and turn people to your message? Your definition creates a zone of like minded zombies. I can't imagine the empty headedness of such a position.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Would you say that making up hundreds of posts on 2 websites about "missing death certificates" - when in fact there never were any missing death certificates - is being disingenuous? Just to recap (2) The Health Ministry collects death certificates from hospitals, not from other sources, even morgues across town, (3) Individual doctors can and do write death certificates independently of either the hospitals or the Health Ministry, and (4) Other than hospitals, no one in Iraq appears to be under any obligation to report deaths to the Health Ministry. So, there is no reason to expect the Health Ministry to have an accruate or complete count of all or even most deaths.
Your claim was that the first study stated that the majority of the deaths did not happen during the first year. The first study made no such conclusion and you are lying. Now you're backpedaling trying to get out of your lie. Furthermore, the first study specifically excluded Fallujah, so any numbers from the first study are too low according to their methodology. I'm claiming you're a lying troll, ROTFLOL! Your claim that these deaths would "grossly depopulate" any region is a lie. Now you're doing some more backpedaling. The study does not claim that the "excess violent deaths" are all caused by military action, or even a majority of them are caused by military action. So fuck you, troll. I never said that lying troll. And the study said that 50,000 were not killed by violence. As one can see from this map, both San Diego California and El Paso Texas are on the very edge of the United States. Both Kirkuk and Mosul are in Kurdistan, and both San Diego and El Paso are in the US. So what's your point, fuckwit? Violent deaths include kidnappings and murders. The media only reports spectacular violent deaths from Answer the question, weasel. Is Les Roberts lying when he says that Iraqi doctors can write death certificates independently of the central government. Yes, or no. I don't provide proof to lying trolls. But I'll tell you what. If I prove from an unbiased source that Iraqi doctors do write death certificates, you'll be banished from this site permanently. Not for expressing a contrary opinion, but for making repeated false statements and spamming them hundreds of times. Now put up or shut up.
BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 07 02:13:00 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 07 19:39:19 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 08 12:51:48 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11- 08 12:51:48 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-09 10:28:44 ET So I accidently wrote billion instead of trillion a few times BeALooser posted on 2006-11-12 20:25:08 ET” “I suspect all of us at one time or another in the heat of a debate [!!] have switched billions and millions and even trillions. BeALooser posted on 2006-12-01 19:19:29 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-12 22:48:21 ET” BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:00:34 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:25:26 ET BeALooser posted on 2006-11-13 00:25:26 ET Yet, intelligent people [!!] still knew what I meant. Still could see my point. They could tell I just transposed two similar words in the rush to respond to you BeALooser posted on 2006-11-30 14:39:06 ET "You tell us when that civil war happens because so far there is no sign of it." BeALooser posted on 2006-06-30 01:48:13 ET "Iraqi units made up of Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis are routinely operating together quite well" BeALooser posted on 2006-06-30 01:48:13 ET "American soldiers are going to die whether we are in Iraq or not. That's one of the facts the American public needs to face.." BeALooser posted on 2006-12-28 13:30:47 ET “I think you are a K**K if you think a country this size can't sustain 9 KIA a day in a global war."
The Baghdad Morgue didn't report their death certificates to the central government - and the Central Government is also located in Baghdad. Otherwise the LA Times could simply have gotten the Baghdad Morgue's total included in the Health Ministry's total. So it appears no one other than hospitals report their deaths to the Health Ministry, and you're a lying troll. Your false claim that hundreds of thousands of death certificates are "missing" has been absolutely and totally annihilated.
You mean like those that post how the govt placed explosives in every floor of the WTC with bull shit as evidence? They are trolls? I like discourse - they rest of you seem to want to only hear preaching to the choir. You don't like what BAChooser has to say counter it with your facts and he comes off the loser.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
As you well know I don't subscribe to the USG did 911 theories, though I'm convinced certain elements within the government had a pretty good idea something was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it, and instead welcomed it. However BAC has been countered with facts time and time again and at this point it's irrefutable the Iraqi Health Ministry never attempted to track all the deaths in Iraq, and therefore no one can allege its records are anything to base a count on. You can't really disprove that someone placed explosives in the WTC, though you can argue about how plausible that was or how much sense that makes. However you certainly can disprove the Iraqi Health Ministry counting all the deaths in Iraq, because BAC's own source explicitly states it only counted deaths from hospitals. So BAC has been completely debunked, but I guess you're really saying is you like BAC around to counter the USG did 911 people. As far as I'm concerned, (s) he's a poor advocate for anything and isn't worth the trouble keeping around.
No, that is not what I am saying - the notion that someone you disagree with is a troll is insane to me. I find that even more a dangerous mind trip than someone who has a stupid position. And I don't know what you mean by "You can't really disprove that someone placed explosives in the WTC" - of course you can. Absence of evidence is not evidence. You don't like his position so you are reverting to your Freerepublic origins by labeling a dissenter as a troll to shut him up - what next, comrade? Bannings? Purgings? Exile to the gulag? PS: As you well know I don't subscribe to the USG did 911 theories, though I'm convinced certain elements within the government had a pretty good idea something was going to happen and did nothing to prevent it, and instead welcomed it. Sort of my position, though some here swear - as you saw yourself - that I was maybe part of the 9/11 govt team somehow? Why would they hold such an opinion? Because I must be a govt agent to dare question their group mind think. That is dangerous fucking thinking that needs to be beaten the hell out of people. I never knew Americans (both left and right) were such zombie-sheep, that any dissent drives them loopier than Maoists during the Cultural Revolution.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance. Free speech does not encompass people getting in your face as you're walking down the street, or banging on your car window as you're stopped in traffic. The nuisance cost vs. the freedom benefit must be considered. Now of course that should apply across the board, and not just to one individual. But two wrongs don't make a right. You may say there's a bozo filter for that. But why do I need to limit myself instead of the troll being limited? That's like turning the streets over to the riff-raff, then telling the property owners to stay inside their houses and they'll be safe.
Exactly. How many times must the same nonsense be refuted? For example, the other day he spammed a 9/11 thread about the amount of time the towers fell. It turns out that 10 seconds is the govt's # for WTC1. It's in their report. It is also in the seismic data. But, the 9/11 truthers use the videos and put it at 14 seconds, which, BTW, can still be proven to be most unnatural, and why we say close to freefall; the figure for freefall in a vacuum is 9.2 seconds. So, after reposting the same info that has been posted many, many times about this subject, he finally slithers off. How is that a debate? It isn't. He's just a nuisance as you say. He isn't honest, he's just a liar and not even a good one.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That differs how from people on here that claim the WTC were blown up from the inside?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
and evil too. :P
That differs how from people on here that claim the WTC were blown up from the inside? The govt's explanation of 9/11 has been proven to be laughable, and not just on this forum. Exploring ideas about what really happened is useful, because learning the truth is always a good idea. A poster who spams threads with the exact same nonsense is not useful, especially when the same "arguments" have already been refuted many times on this forum. His latest attempt was downright amusing. He spammed a 9/11 thread with BS about how many seconds it took the towers to fall. Then when the facts were presented that the 10 seconds originated in the govt's 9/11 Commission report, and that the 9/11 truth movement states it took about 14 seconds (explaining that the 10 seconds came from the govt report and seismic data), he said well the govt didn't understand and wasn't told or shown the right info. Then he uses a 9/11 truth website's photo, ignoring their detailed explanation (which included how 9.2 seconds would be freefall in a vacuum and about air resistance, etc.), and instead spins and distorts the photo to fit the govt's explanation. He of course ignores all the basic math & physics used by that same site. He closes by saying we're not experts so we can't possibly understand, that we believe fairy tales and just look foolish. Who looks foolish? Who believes fairy tales? And why would anyone want to read anymore of his posts? All he does is distract from any meaningful discussion. He's a time waster, a troll.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
So that differs from the truth as someone else like Bachooser sees it how? You claim the govts version of 9/11 is bogus he claims the medical report on the number of deaths in Iraq is bogus. You both have controversial views - both should be heard not banned or accused of trolling.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Where logic is replaced by volumes of the exact same copy/paste (refuted by many on many threads), then curtailing such a poster is reasonable. He just disrupts any worthwhile discussion, which is part of his schtick. You agree with the govt's story about 9/11, so I'm not surprised that you are defending him. Do you agree or disagree with the medical reports on the number of Iraqis who have died since we invaded Iraq? Are you also in agreement with BAC on this subject?
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
You 9/11 truther types do the exact same thing you accuse bachooser of doing. A shitload of people have died in Iraq and a shit load of people have fled Iraq for other countries as refugess - some say up to 2 million Iraqis have fled Iraq. I find that a more telling figure than how many have died. In America the Iraq war's destructive toll is kept hidden by focusing only on death tolls when looking at the wounded figures really tells you the death rate is on par with Vietnam (the wounded in Iraq survive wounds thanks to medical technologies that would have resulted in deaths in the Vietnam era). I can't speak to the London report on the number of deaths because I have not studied it in part because I know the death toll has been huge so I have not bothered to check one way or the other. I assume it is accurate. That I assume it is accurate does not make it so but I will accept the figure until I find evidence refuting it - if I bother to look that is. Just to set you straight - The only part of the 9/11 story I accept from the govt is the 'mechanical' ones not the rest - not on the relationship of the 9/11 cell to US intellugence and not what the status of the information the govt had on them before that day. Are you also in agreement with BAC on this subject? - It shocks me you guys don't see what I am accusing you of. You assume because I defend a person's right to speak his mind that I agree with him. If you were being accused of trolling by spreading your version of 9/11 I would be defending your right to do so as well. As long as I get to debate you that is all I care about - THE RIGHT TO DISCOURSE! America is doomed - it has become populated by people too Balkanized in the head to be able to carry out spirited discourse. I thought this thinking was limited to neocon-Bushbot websites but I see it is a mindset that the other sides also have. Pity. Is there a website both left and right and anything in between can go and discuss anything and everything in a spirited manner without fear they will be banished or blocked or made uncomfortable?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
If that's what you really think then either you haven't been attending to his postings or you really must enjoy the LP troll-style. This forum also believes in the right to discourse, but BAC doesn't discuss, he spams. There is a difference. Many posters on this forum were banned from FR and then LP where putting up with quite a few like BAC was the norm. The moderators didn't like the truth, they preferred an army of paid shills and trolls who agree with the Bush regime about everything. This forum became a place of refuge from those govt sponsored sites. The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard. You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
So you are for limiting discourse. You just want to make this place like Freerepublic but only for your kind only. I was - sadly - right all along.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Or maybe we just don't want it to turn into another LP or FR, which sadly appears to be what you would prefer.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
what are you bitching about, Destro? BAC is posting here, is he not? he's not being censored. he is being blocked by choice of some of the individual members. if you don't like this forum, its free speech policy which includes the right to call someone a troll, and its members (which you are always criticizing and painting with a broad brush), then why don't you leave? you've expressed your distaste for it and us over and over. btw, you are certainly free to create and fund a forum of your own.
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#19. To: AGAviator, ALL (#17)
You don't *explain* how 87% x 92% is not 80%, dip-shit. It is, and it's basic math.
Nobody at any time inside or outside of Iraq has ever said they're missing except you. They're not missing. You're lying.
"the first John Hopkins study concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in that first year"
No it did not conclude that. Another lie.
What an idiot you are, claiming that a total death toll over 3 years of 650,000 - an average of under 220,000 per year - in a country of 36 million will "greatly depopulate" that country.
Alternatively, 657,000 deaths in a population of 36,000,000 = 1.8% of the total.
"And contrary to what you've claimed in the past, the majority of the country is relatively peaceful. Kurdistan in particular."
What a lying SOS you are.
And how many people die of normal causes every day in a country of 36 million the size of California, shit for brains?
"So, where are the news accounts of tens of days with 10,000 or more deaths?"
Strawman.
"Then name ONE doctor from Iraq who has come forward to say he wrote hundreds of death certificates and didn't report them to the Ministry of Health."
You've changed your story. You used to claim that Les Roberts was lying when he said that Iraqi doctors write death certificates.
#20. To: Destro, AGAviator, ALL (#18)
BeAChooser, Iraq is a hellhole of Bush and Clinton's making. It has been depopulated - especially among Christians and others of the educated class fleeing for their lives.
#21. To: BeAChooser, scrapper2 (#19)
(Edited)
And the fact that the other 13%, who were RANDOMLY not asked, should have been able to provide death certificates 92% of the time ... if the study is valid ... is BASIC STATISTICS.
Nobody at any time inside or outside of Iraq has ever said they're missing except you. They're not missing. You're lying.
Then where are they?
Because if the John Hopkins study is valid than 92 percent of those who might claim deaths should have had a death certificate issued. And there is no record of that.
"The first John Hopkins study concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in that first year"
No it did not conclude that. Another lie.
You are wrong. Haven't you read the second study? It states "In 2004 we estimated that somewhere in excess of 100,000 deaths had occurred from the time of the invasion until August 2004.
Using data from the 2006 survey to look at the time included in the 2004 survey, we estimated that the number of excess deaths during that time was about 112,000" blah blah blah
But all those deaths were not evenly distributed throughout the country. They occurred mostly in a few regions. Where surely losses in the hundreds of thousands would have been noticed by a journalist or two. Surely ...
Alternatively, 657,000 deaths in a population of 36,000,000 = 1.8% of the total.
Although an incorrect way to look at the problem, this number in itself is remarkable.
Because it is only slightly different than the percentage of the German population (or the Japanese population) that died in WW2 ... and that was after strategic bombing of virtually every major city in those countries. Those cities were literally flattened or burned to the ground in many cases. Yet you want us to believe that Iraq, whose cities are mostly still standing, has had comparable losses.
I've even posted articles to the forum showing that Kurdistan is mostly peaceful and doing quite well now that Saddam is gone.
And how many people die of normal causes every day in a country of 36 million the size of California, shit for brains?
But we are talking VIOLENT deaths ... and those get noticed.
Not at all. STATISTICALLY there is no way that the number of deaths has been a constant 546 per day since the war began. Some days would be higher and some lower. And as what I posted shows, even if you assumed that most days would only see deaths of 381 per day (which is far more than has ever been reported), you'd have to have a significant number of days (20) with 10,000 deaths. And surely that would have been noticed and reported by someone.
You've changed your story. You used to claim that Les Roberts was lying when he said that Iraqi doctors write death certificates.
I haven't changed my story at all. Les Roberts is a liar and you're unable to name even ONE doctor who says he/she wrote death certificates in Iraq and didn't report them.
But you don't just need one doctor, you need thousands of doctors doing that to even begin to account for all the death certificates that John Hopkins claims exist but for which there is no record whatsoever.
#22. To: BeAChooser, AGAviator (#20)
That may or may not be true. But in any case, that's not the depopulation that AGAviator and John Hopkins are claiming. They aren't talking about folks fleeing for their lives. They are claiming that hundreds of thousands were KILLED in certain regions of the country
#23. To: AGAviator, scrapper2, Destro, ALL (#21)
"And the fact that the other 13%, who were RANDOMLY not asked, should have been able to provide death certificates 92% of the time ... if the study is valid ... is BASIC STATISTICS."
That's not how basic statistics works, numbskull.
"The first John Hopkins study concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in that first year"
No it did not conclude that. Another lie.
"You are wrong. Haven't you read the second study? It states "In 2004 we estimated that somewhere in excess of 100,000 deaths had occurred from the time of the invasion until August 2004."
You can't even read, then you try to bluster your way out of it by lying.
Saying that "somewhere in excess of 100,000 deaths had occurred" does not equate to saying "the first John Hopkins study concluded that less than 100,000 of the 655,000 died in that first year"
In fact, it says precisely the opposite.
"Using data from the 2006 survey to look at the time included in the 2004 survey, we estimated that the number of excess deaths during that time was about 112,000" blah blah blah
Do you know the difference between "in excess" and "less than," dummy?
you now retreat to your fall-back position of "The media hates Bush."
During times of war and social chaos no one is going to greatly notice less than a 1% change.
The JH definition of "excess deaths" is not limited to people who are killed by military action, brainless troll.
I've already cited the cities where there has been violence that regularly makes the headlines.
"But we are talking VIOLENT deaths ... and those get noticed."
By whom? The "embedded media?"
People "noticing" and "reporting" are two different things. More "The media hates Bush so it couldn't have happened."
Is Les Roberts lying when he says Iraqi doctors write death certificates, lying SOS?
So fuck you, lying troll.
*Baghdad 575 (Central) Capitol City-Province.
*Salaheddin 256 (Central) Home to cities of Tikrit and Samarra.
*Nineveh 171 (Central-Kurdistan) Home to city of Mosul.
*Babel 118 (Sumer-Central) Home to city of Hillah and ruins of Babylon.
*Diyala 82 (Central)
*Dhi Qar 67 (Sumer) Home to ruins ancient city of Ur.
*Basra 58 (Sumer) Home to cities of Basra, Umm Qasr and Eden.
*At Tamim 37 (Kurdistan-Central) Home to the city of Kirkuk.
*Wasit 33 (Sumer) Home to city of Al Kut.
*Najaf 29 (Sumer) Home to cities of Najaf and Kufah.
*Karbala 28 (Sumer)Home to Shi'ite holy shrine to Imam Hussein.
*Maysan 19 (Sumer) Home of "Marsh Arabs"; 1991 Shi'ite uprising.
*Qadisiyyah 17 (Sumer)
*Muthanna 6 (Sumer)
*Arbil 1 (Kurdistan) Home to ethnic Turks and Assyrians.
*Sulaimaniya 0 (Kurdistan)
*Dahuk 0 (Kurdistan)
#24. To: BeAChooser (#23)
#25. To: Ada (#0)
#26. To: Destro, ALL (#22)
Don't be disingenuous BeAChooser,
With that said - the death toll clearly is high in Iraq due to America's invasion and occupational aftermath.
#27. To: BeAChooser, AGAviator, scrapper2 (#23)
Now the population of Anbar is 1.3 million. So you are asking us to believe that 25% of Anbars population was killed between the beginning of the invasion and July of last year.
#28. To: kiki, ALL (#25)
if our actions have caused the death of 300,000 or 600,000 or ten, it's wrong. period.
#29. To: Destro, ALL (#27)
The statistics show that Anbar has been depopulated by that amount - the discrepancy has to do with how you interpret the data - are the missing people mostly dead or mostly refugees who fled?
#30. To: BeAChooser, AGAviator, scrapper2 (#26)
Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.
#31. To: BeAChooser (#29)
It's makes a big difference. If the missing are mostly refugees who fled, then someone in the John Hopkin's study LIED about the death certificates. And you will not find truth or justice on a foundation of lies.
#32. To: BeAChooser (#29)
you will not find truth or justice on a foundation of lies.
#33. To: Fish Breath (#29)
(Edited)
someone in the John Hopkin's study LIED about the death certificates
#34. To: beachooser, Minerva, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#28)
#35. To: BeAChooser, ..., Destro (#23)
Fuck you lying troll.
Arguing like so many other 4umers.
#36. To: AGAviator (#35)
I've already told you, fucking troll
#37. To: Destro (#36)
Trolls are people who go on Internet forums to be disingenuous
#38. To: christine (#37)
(Edited)
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
#39. To: Destro, Christine (#36)
(Edited)
Trolls are people who go on Internet forums to be disingenuous and pick fights
(1) The Health Ministry never issued any death certificates to begin with, so they can't be "missing" what they never had,
#40. To: BeAChooser, Christine, SKYDRIFTER (#23)
So how many do you think the second John Hopkins study claim died in the first year after the invasion began, AGAviator? 112,000? 2/3rds of 112,000? Just what is your number, AGAviator?
So are you now claiming the media decided not to report the deaths of hundreds of thousands in places like Anbar because they love Bush? ROTFLOL!
During times of war and social chaos no one is going to greatly notice less than a 1% change.
Why 1%? Why not 2%? Why not 3%?
Virtually every city in those countries was FLATTENED. That is not the case in Iraq.
The JH definition says that almost all of those 655,000 were killed by VIOLENCE. Now you want us to believe that thugs with guns, not bombs, have killed 2% of the population.
As one can see from the map below, both Mosul and Kirkuk (Karkuk) are on the very edge of Kurdistan.
Oh so now you are saying the media noticed the deaths but decided not to report them? And it's because they "love Bush"? ROTFLOL!
Is Les Roberts lying when he says Iraqi doctors write death certificates, lying SOS?
Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government.
Tell you what, AGAviator, why don't you get Les Roberts to get the names of the doctors on those death certificates he claims his researchers were shown and go get them to make statements. Surely they noted the names on the certificates. Surely ....
#41. To: BeAChooser (#23)
(Edited)
ROTFLOL...spam...ROTFLOL...spam...ROFTLOL...spam
Post #92
"Since 9/11, the GDP of the US has increased by something on the order of 2 TRILLION dollars a year."
"You clearly made the claim that the rise in government expenditures was responsible for the tremendous increase in GDP (to the tune of 2 billion a year) by the end of the five years since 9/11."
"You made the claim that the 2 trillion dollar increase per year in GDP is mostly government spending."
"Yet, the GDP has gone from about 10 billion to about 12 billion a year ... a 20 percent increase"
“Obviously I meant $2 trillion"
“Total government spending… was roughly 2.75 trillion dollars. A 33 percent increase would amount to 900 million
"OK. So I was wrong...Big deal. "
“But it is clearly what I meant" [!!]
“So my language was sloppy. Sue me."
“I meant billion. Sue me."
“I'm just tired"
You were off by a factor of a thousand.
BeALooser posted on 2006-06-29 19:16:07 ET
BeALooser posted on 2007-01-21 17:27:20 ET
#42. To: BeAChooser (#23)
Hard to tell since NOT ONE Iraqi doctor has come forward to say he wrote death certificates and didn't report them to the central government.
#43. To: AGAviator, Christine (#39)
Would you say that making up hundreds of posts on 2 websites about "missing death certificates" - when in fact there never were any missing death certificates - is being disingenuous?
#44. To: Destro (#43)
(Edited)
You don't like what BAChooser has to say counter it with your facts and he comes off the loser.
#45. To: AGAviator (#44)
(Edited)
So BAC has been completely debunked, but I guess you're really saying is you like BAC around to counter the USG did 911 people. As far as I'm concerned, (s) he's a poor advocate for anything and isn't worth the trouble keeping around.
#46. To: Destro (#45)
You don't like his position so you are reverting to your Freerepublic origins by labeling a dissenter as a troll to shut him up - what next, comrade? Bannings? Purgings? Exile to the gulag?
#47. To: AGAviator (#46)
when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.
#48. To: AGAviator, robin (#46)
No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.
#49. To: robin (#47)
#50. To: Destro (#48)
No, when someone repeats assertions time and time again that have been decisively rebutted, the person becomes a nuisance.
#51. To: robin (#50)
The govt's explanation of 9/11 has been proven to be laughable, and not just on this forum. Exploring ideas about what really happened is useful, because learning the truth is always a good idea.
#52. To: Destro (#51)
#53. To: robin (#52)
(Edited)
Where logic is replaced by volumes of the exact same copy/paste (refuted by many on many threads), then curtailing such a poster is reasonable. He just disrupts any worthwhile discussion, which is part of his schtick.
#54. To: Destro (#53)
You 9/11 truther types do the exact same thing you accuse bachooser of doing.
#55. To: robin (#54)
The truth is often uncomfortable. This is one of the few forums where it is allowed to be heard. You can read the likes of BAC anytime on FR and LP.
#56. To: Destro (#55)
#57. To: Destro (#55)
(Edited)
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