See other War, War, War Articles
Title: Violating the Constitution With an Illegal War
Source:
http://www.lewrockwell.com
URL Source: http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul57.html
Published: Oct 3, 2002
Author: Rep. Ron Paul, MD
Post Date: 2007-04-03 20:34:01 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 2562
Comments: 267
Ron Paul in the US House of Representatives, October 3, 2002 The last time Congress declared war was on December 11, 1941, against Germany in response to its formal declaration of war against the United States. This was accomplished with wording that took less than one-third of a page, without any nitpicking arguments over precise language, yet it was a clear declaration of who the enemy was and what had to be done. And in three-and-a-half years, this was accomplished. A similar resolve came from the declaration of war against Japan three days earlier. Likewise, a clear-cut victory was achieved against Japan. Many Americans have been forced into war since that time on numerous occasions, with no congressional declaration of war and with essentially no victories. Today’s world political condition is as chaotic as ever. We’re still in Korea and we’re still fighting the Persian Gulf War that started in 1990. The process by which we’ve entered wars over the past 57 years, and the inconclusive results of each war since that time, are obviously related to Congress’ abdication of its responsibility regarding war, given to it by Article I Section 8 of the Constitution. Congress has either ignored its responsibility entirely over these years, or transferred the war power to the executive branch by a near majority vote of its Members, without consideration of it by the states as an amendment required by the Constitution. Congress is about to circumvent the Constitution and avoid the tough decision of whether war should be declared by transferring this monumental decision-making power regarding war to the President. Once again, the process is being abused. Odds are, since a clear-cut decision and commitment by the people through their representatives are not being made, the results will be as murky as before. We will be required to follow the confusing dictates of the UN, since that is where the ultimate authority to invade Iraq is coming from – rather than from the American people and the U.S. Constitution. Controversial language is being hotly debated in an effort to satisfy political constituencies and for Congress to avoid responsibility of whether to go to war. So far the proposed resolution never mentions war, only empowering the President to use force at his will to bring about peace. Rather strange language indeed! A declaration of war limits the presidential powers, narrows the focus, and implies a precise end point to the conflict. A declaration of war makes Congress assume the responsibilities directed by the Constitution for this very important decision, rather than assume that if the major decision is left to the President and a poor result occurs, it will be his fault, not that of Congress. Hiding behind the transfer of the war power to the executive through the War Powers Resolution of 1973 will hardly suffice. However, the modern way we go to war is even more complex and deceptive. We must also write language that satisfies the UN and all our allies. Congress gladly transfers the legislative prerogatives to declare war to the President, and the legislative and the executive branch both acquiesce in transferring our sovereign rights to the UN, an un-elected international government. No wonder the language of the resolution grows in length and incorporates justification for starting this war by citing UN Resolutions. In order to get more of what we want from the United Nations, we rejoined UNESCO, which Ronald Reagan had bravely gotten us out of, and promised millions of dollars of U.S. taxpayer support to run this international agency started by Sir Julian Huxley. In addition, we read of promises by our administration that once we control Iraqi oil, it will be available for allies like France and Russia, who have been reluctant to join our efforts. What a difference from the days when a declaration of war was clean and precise and accomplished by a responsible Congress and an informed people! A great irony of all this is that the United Nations Charter doesn’t permit declaring war, especially against a nation that has been in a state of peace for 12 years. The UN can only declare peace. Remember, it wasn’t a war in Korea; it was only a police action to bring about peace. But at least in Korea and Vietnam there was fighting going on, so it was a bit easier to stretch the language than it is today regarding Iraq. Since Iraq doesn’t even have an Air Force or a Navy, is incapable of waging a war, and remains defenseless against the overwhelming powers of the United States and the British, it’s difficult to claim that we’re going into Iraq to restore peace. History will eventually show that if we launch this attack the real victims will be the innocent Iraqi civilians who despise Saddam Hussein and are terrified of the coming bombs that will destroy their cities. The greatest beneficiaries of the attack may well be Osama bin Ladin and the al Qaeda. Some in the media have already suggested that the al Qaeda may be encouraging the whole event. Unintended consequences will occur – what will come from this attack is still entirely unknown. It’s a well-known fact that the al Qaeda are not allies of Saddam Hussein and despise the secularization and partial westernization of Iraqi culture. They would welcome the chaos that’s about to come. This will give them a chance to influence post-Saddam Hussein Iraq. The attack, many believe, will confirm to the Arab world that indeed the Christian West has once again attacked the Muslim East, providing radical fundamentalists a tremendous boost for recruitment. An up or down vote on declaring war against Iraq would not pass the Congress, and the President has no intention of asking for it. This is unfortunate, because if the process were carried out in a constitutional fashion, the American people and the U.S. Congress would vote "No" on assuming responsibility for this war. Not only is it sad that we have gone so far astray from our Constitution, but it’s also dangerous for world peace and threatens our liberties here at home. Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas. 
Transferring authority to wage war, calling it permission to use force to fight for peace in order to satisfy the UN Charter, which replaces the Article I, Section 8 war power provision, is about as close to 1984 "newspeak" that we will ever get in the real world.
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#85. To: BeAChooser (#76)
Al-Zarqawi, who was closely tied with al-Qaeda, was in Iraq long before we invaded, and in fact met with al-Qaeda members in Baghdad to fund and plan an attack on the US embassy in Amman using a chemically laced bomb. Al Qaeda members were in the United States plotting. Do you propose we should have bombed the cities they were in? Saddam was Sunni. Al Qaeda is Shiite. They were not allies and they were not friends. A good case can be made that one reason the chemical bomb plot failed was that al-Zarqawi was put on the run by the invasion and therefore couldn't monitor it as closely as he might have. Or perhaps the invasion even led to intelligence that allowed Jordan to intercept the terrorists before they could complete their mission. An even better case can be made that you just make crap up. If the act was "to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons," shouldn't we have attacked Saudi Arabia, or at somebody who had something to do with the attacks of September 11, 2001? No, because unlike Iraq, Saudi Arabia's government condemned the attack, was not on speaking terms with bin Laden (in fact, bin Laden's people were trying to topple the Saudi leadership) and Saudi Arabia after 9/11 made significant efforts to destroy al-Qaeda's operations in their country. Contrast that with Iraq's government which applauded the actions of the terrorists on 9/11, was still in communication with al-Qaeda after 9/11, and instead of rounding up al-Qaeda was allowing al-Qaeda to operate freely in their country. And don't forget, preventing al-Qaeda from getting access to WMD was a major concern following an attack on 9/11 that certainly showed a willingness to cross the WMD threshold and following discovery in Afghanistan of an interest in WMD by al-Qaeda. Iraq had WMD technology ... the Saudi's did not. Like rock 'n' roll, the hits just keep on coming. It was Saudi Arabians who planned the 9/11 operation, funded the 9/11 operation, and executed the 9/11 operation. It was not Iraqis. It is alright for Saudis to attack the twin towers as long as some Saudi government official says "My bad" afterwards. Retaliate against someone who had nothing to do with it because someone on television applauded. As for Al Qaeda being allowed to operate freely in Iraq, that did not occur until the Bush administration assumed responsibility for running the place. Saddam Hussein did a far better job of keeping them out than George Bush. And don't forget, preventing al-Qaeda from getting access to WMD was a major concern As Al Qaeda had no WMD and Iraq had no WMD to give them, and as Iraq and Al Qaeda were enemies and not friends, the only WMD in question were the imaginary ones that Bush and his administration lied about in order to gain public support for a war. Even GWB has given up on that pantsload. Iraq had WMD technology Israel had WMD technology, and WMD, including nuclear weapons. Resolution 487 (June 19, 1981) Further taking note of the resolution adopted by the Board of Governors of the IAEA on 12 June 1981 on the "military attack on the Iraq nuclear research centre and its implications for the Agency" (S/14532), Fully aware of the fact that Iraq has been a party to the Treaty on the NonProliferation of Nuclear Weapons since it came into force in 1970, that in accordance with that Treaty Iraq has accepted IAEA safeguards on all its nuclear activities, and that the Agency has testified that these safeguards have been satisfactorily applied to date, Noting furthermore that Israel has not adhered to the nonproliferation Treaty, Deeply concerned about the danger to international peace and security created by the premeditated Israeli air attack on Iraqi nuclear installations on 7 June 1981, which could at any time explode the situation in the area, with grave consequences for the vital interests of all States, Considering that, under the terms of Article 2, paragraph 4, of the Charter of the United Nations: "All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations," 1. Strongly condemns the military attack by Israel in clear violation of the Charter of the United Nations and the norms of international conduct; 2. Calls upon Israel to refrain in the future from any such acts or threats thereof; 3. Further considers that the said attack constitutes a serious threat to the entire IAEA safeguards regime which is the foundation of the nonproliferation Treaty; 4. Fully recognises the inalienable sovereign right of Iraq, and all other States, especially the developing countries, to establish programmes of technological and nuclear development to develop their economy and industry for peaceful purposes in accordance with their present and future needs and consistent with the internationally accepted objectives of preventing nuclear weapons proliferation; 5. Calls upon Israel urgently to place its nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards; 6. Considers that Iraq is entitled to appropriate redress for the destruction it has suffered, responsibility for which has been acknowledged by Israel;
Yes, ALL those UN Security Council resolutions pertain to Israel. Using your standards, it would seem that anyone in the world who chooses to do so can assert the right to drop bombs on Israel and effect regime change. Do UN resolutions only apply to Iraq and only authorize GWB to drop bombs on people?
After 9/11? Any specific proof of this? No? But it was not the Saudi Arabian government. And the planning of the operation didn't apparently take place in Saudi Arabia. Indeed the person funding the effort was not welcome in the country at the time and was calling for the toppling of the Saudi government. You have provided no proof that the Saudi government or anyone in the Saudi Government was involved in 9/11. FALSE. The dozen al-Qaeda put on trial and convicted in Jordan said they met al-Zarqawi in Baghdad BEFORE the invasion. There is no indication at all that al-Qaeda's movements in Iraq were restricted under Saddam. Indeed, it appears that al-Qaeda freely moved about and even used Iraqi hospitals. And one time, one was detained and then released on orders (according to the CIA and a captured Iraqi document) of Saddam. Good thing but they were definitely trying to acquire WMD. Still are, I imagine. FALSE. That binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED after the invasion proves you wrong. And there were hundreds of other shells of various types found containing materials we wouldn't want terrorists to get their hands on. Plus, you really don't know if Iraq had WMD. The ISG said they have a credible source saying WMD related items (possibly WMD) were moved to Iraq. And Saddam's regime went to a lot of trouble to sanitize files, computers and facilities of something you claim they didn't have. Plus, Iraq definitely had information and seed stock that al-Qaeda might find useful in creating WMD themselves (in a place like that camp in Northern Iraq, for instance). Odd that al-Zarqawi would pick Baghdad (seat of government of his enemy and a city filled with security types from Saddam's regime) to meet with the terrorists he was dispatching to kill tens of thousands in Jordan. Odd that al-Zarqawi would go to a Baghdad hospital to get treatment. Odd that Iraq openly applauded the actions of their enemy. Odd that Iraq had friendly contacts with the Taliban after 9/11 to warn them about a possible US attack to get bin Laden. And what is it with you and Israel?
But you can't give him any dates here because that would blow your bullshit out of the water. As you recall, this alleged incident took place in April of 2004. Also recall that these people were torured at a time when the Bush bullshit was just starting to fall apart. And surprise! Under torture these guys provided the Bush admin with the ammo it needed to keep the Defense Department report buried until last week.
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Recall that you are quoting NewsMax here. All the repectable publications noted that your single rusty shell was left over from a time before the first Gulf war. The time when Rumsfeld was supplying Saddam with the precursor chemicals Saddam needed for his WMD.
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That binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED after the invasion proves you wrong. And there were hundreds of other shells of various types found containing materials we wouldn't want terrorists to get their hands on. Hey kook bunny, if any of this SHIT is true, why doesn't Bush go on national TV tonight and save his Presidency with it? Why didn't Cheney rattle it off when he was on Rush last Thursday trying to fool you and the other mindless goobers about the Defense Depeartment report that contradicts you on the Saddam / Al Qaeda link? Surly you have some nutty conspiracy theory to explain this. A person like you, who can concoct the sort of nuttery you concoct about Ron Brown, should have no trouble coming up with a wild conspiracy theory to explain this. Let's hear it kook.
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YOU have invoked UN SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS to justify GWB bombing Iraq and effecting regime change. I have showed you dozens and dozens of UN SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS and asked you if they would authorize an attack on Israel. Do UN resolutions apply equally to all, and grant the right to bomb anyone declared a transgressor, or is this discovery of yours unique to GWB and Iraq? If you prefer to use another country as an example, if you would identify such nation that has been condemned by the UN as many times as Israel, I will be happy to post those resolutions. WHY are you unable to answer the question?
No, it just shows that you are still pimping a discredited issue. https://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5.html Iraq’s Chemical Warfare Program Key Findings Saddam never abandoned his intentions to resume a CW effort when sanctions were lifted and conditions were judged favorable: * Saddam and many Iraqis regarded CW as a proven weapon against an enemy’s superior numerical strength, a weapon that had saved the nation at least once already-during the Iran-Iraq war-and contributed to deterring the Coalition in 1991 from advancing to Baghdad. While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered, ISG judges that Iraq unilaterally destroyed its undeclared chemical weapons stockpile in 1991. There are no credible indications that Baghdad resumed production of chemical munitions thereafter, a policy ISG attributes to Baghdad’s desire to see sanctions lifted, or rendered ineffectual, or its fear of force against it should WMD be discovered. * * * Disposition of CW Munitions Post-1991 ISG expended considerable time and effort investigating longstanding Iraqi assertions about the fate of CW munitions known to have been in Baghdad’s possession during the Gulf war. We believe the vast majority of these munitions were destroyed, but questions remain concerning hundreds of CW munitions. Since May 2004, ISG has recovered dozens of additional chemical munitions, including artillery rounds, rockets and a binary Sarin artillery projectile (see Figure 5). In each case, the recovered munitions appear to have been part of the pre-1991 Gulf war stocks, but we can neither determine if the munitions were declared to the UN or if, as required by the UN SCR 687, Iraq attempted to destroy them. (See Annex F.) * The most significant recovered munitions was a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile which insurgents had attempted to use as an improvised explosive device. * ISG has also recovered 155mm chemical rounds and 122mm artillery rockets which we judge came from abandoned Regime stocks.
Odd that Jonathan Pollard spied for Saddam Hussein. Or was it Al Qaeda? Oh darn, which of our enemies was he spying for again?
What is it with you and those prototype shells from the 1980's. They were so old and degraded they were about as potent as camel dung or BAC manure. 16 May 2004: 152mm Binary Chemical Improvised Explosive Device A military unit near Baghdad Airport reported a suspect IED along the main road between the airport and the Green Zone (see figure 2). The munitions were remotely detonated and the remaining liquid tested positive in ISG field labs for the nerve agent Sarin and a key Sarin degradation product. The partially detonated IED was an old prototype binary nerve agent munitions of the type Iraq declared it had field tested in the late 1980s. The munitions bear no markings, much like the sulfur mustard round reported on 2 May (see Figure 3). Insurgents may have looted or purchased the rounds believing they were conventional high explosive 155mm rounds. The use of this type of round as an IED does not allow sufficient time for mixing of the binary compounds and release in an effective manner, thus limiting the dispersal area of the chemicals.
BAC, tell me about the rabbits... then tell me about the magic vintage sarin. "The Gulf War Air Campaign - Possible Chemical Warfare Agent Release at Al Muthanna, February 8, 1991", 19 March 2001; at: http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/al_muth/al_muth_s02.htm The taskforce of the Department of Defense attributed the high level of Iraqi cooperation in revealing the scale of its earlier chemical programme to the fact that the Iraqi government realised that the nerve agents it had produced were no longer viable: "We believe Iraq was largely cooperative on its latest declarations because many of its residual munitions were of little use - other than bolstering the credibility of Iraq's declaration - because of chemical agent degradation and leakage problems." "Chemical Warfare Agent Issues During the Persian Gulf War", Persian Gulf War Illnesses Task Force, April 2002; at: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/gulfwar/cwagents/cwpaper1.htm A similar assessment was made by the CIA in a memorandum from January 1991: "Iraq is not able to make good-quality chemical agents. Technical failures have reduced their purity and caused problems in storage and handling. This is a particular problem for the sarin- type nerve agents (GB and GF). These both contain hydrofluoricacid (HF), an impurity that attacks metal surfaces and catalyzes nerve agent decomposition. This leads to metal failure and leaks in the ammunition, increasing handling hazards. [...] Lower purity significantly limits shelf life and reduces toxic effects when the munition is employed. [...] The nerve agent should have already begun to deteriorate, and decomposition should make most of the nerve agent weapons unserviceable by the end of March 1991." "Iraq: Potential for Chemical Weapon Use", 25 January 1991; at: http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/cia/970825/970613_dim37_91d_txt_0001.html This assessment is repeated in the IISS strategic dossier of 9 September 2002: "As a practical matter, any nerve agent from this period [pre-1991] would have deteriorated by now.." (p.51) UNMOVIC have also acknowledged this conclusion with regard to specific substances: Tabun: "documentary evidence suggests that Tabun was produced using process technology and quality control methodologies that would result in the agent being degraded to a very low quality through the action of a resulting by-product." ("Unresolved Disarmament Issues", 6 March 2003, p.68). Sarin / Cyclosarin: "According to documents discovered by UNSCOM in Iraq, the purity of Sarin-type agents produced by Iraq were on average below 60%, and dropped below Iraq’s established quality control acceptance level of 40% by purity some 3 to 12 months after production. [...] There is no evidence that any bulk Sarin-type agents remain in Iraq - gaps in accounting of these agents are related to Sarin-type agents weaponized in rocket warheads and aerial bombs. Based on the documentation found by UNSCOM during inspections in Iraq, Sarin-type agents produced by Iraq were largely of low quality and as such, degraded shortly after production. Therefore, with respect to the unaccounted for weaponized Sarin-type agents, it is unlikely that they would still be viable today." ("Unresolved Disarmament Issues", 6 March 2003, pp.72-73).
Considering your neutral viewpoint, do you condemn Jonathan Pollard as a traitor to the United States? As that nation he spied for refused to return the documents and refused to allow U.S. intelligence to debrief the agents who ran Pollard, should we continue to give them $Billions annually? Where does a neutral person, such as yourself, stand on the issue? "It is difficult for me... to conceive of a greater harm to national security than that caused by the defendant in view of the breadth, the critical importance of the United States and the high sensitivity of the information he sold to Israel... I respectfully submit that any U.S. citizen, and in particular a trusted government official, who sells U.S. secrets to any foreign nation should not be punished merely as a common criminal. Rather the punishment imposed should reflect the perfidy of the individual actions, the magnitude of the trason committed, and the needs of national security." "I feel my husband and I did what we were expected to do, what our moral obligation was as Jews, what our moral obligation was as human beings. I have no regrets about that." "With remarkable chutzpah, Israel, which receives up to $5 billion in U.S. aid annually, refuses to return documents stolen by Pollard, or allow U.S. intelligence to debrief Mossad agents who ran Pollard in order to learn the full extent of the disaster."
I suggest folks visit the following thread to see ... and his argument blown out of the water. http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49616&Disp=37#C37
Got your ass kicked on the other thread and ran over there to hide?
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What is it with you and Newsmax, ...? You didn't like the way they treated Clinton? ROTFLOL! And for the record, you are once again wrong. This didn't come from Newsmax. It came from the ISG report. http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5_annxF.html "The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist." I haven't seen anyone around here more interested than you in discrediting themselves.
I am really amazed at your scumball tactics. You lose the argument on one thread and you come over here and try to restart the argument in exactly the same way. Are you assuming that people might not read the first thread? You are a real piece of work.
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http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5_annxF.html "The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist." I haven't seen anyone around here more interested than you in discrediting themselves. Chooser, you are a really pathetic bald faced liar. For the second time tonight you posted a dead link when you got backed into a corner by the facts. THE LINK YOU POSTED ABOVE IS A DEAD LINK! THAT IS TWICE IN TWO HOURS YOU POSTED A FAKE DEAD LINK TO ALLEGEDLY BACK UP YOUR DISHONEST SHIT. IT ISN'T AN ACCIDENT CHOOSER.
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Feith and Ledeens gay campers?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Let me remind everyone that Chooser used his fake link tactic on another thread about an hour ago. He made grandiose claims, got called on it and then posted a dead link to "prove" his point. I suggest everyone check his links prior to accepting any of his shit at face value. This makes the third time that I know of where he has been busted for this. Seems to be part of his bag of tricks along with insults, changing the subject and ignoring questions.
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I suggest everyone check his links prior to accepting any of his shit at face value. This makes the third time that I know of where he has been busted for this. Seems to be part of his bag of tricks along with insults, changing the subject and ignoring questions. ...and spamming threads with repetitious long posts containing lies that have already been refuted numerous times on other threads.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=49616&Disp=37#C37 I suggest folks visit the following LP thread to see ... BAC having his ass handed to him. http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=164186&Disp=All LP THREAD: April Glaspie Transcript http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=164186&Disp=All#C473 nolu chan posted on 2006-12-08 01:25:45 ET [EXCERPT FROM nolu_chan #473 to BAC] Postwar Findings about Iraq's WMD Programs and Links to Terrorism and How they Compare with Prewar Assessments http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiaccuracy.pdf [the report excerpted below] The Use by the Intelligence Community of Information Provided by the Iraqi National Congress http://intelligence.senate.gov/phaseiiinc.pdf 2006 Senate Report of Pre-War Intelligence In September 2006, the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence released two reports constituting Phase II of its study of pre-war intelligence claims regarding Iraq's pursuit of WMD and alleged links to al-Qaeda. These bipartisan reports included "Findings about Iraq's WMD Programs and Links to Terrorism and How they Compare with Prewar Assessments"[95] and "The Use by the Intelligence Community of Information Provided by the Iraqi National Congress".[96] The reports concluded that, according to David Stout of the New York Times, "there is no evidence that Saddam Hussein had prewar ties to Al Qaeda and one of the terror organization’s most notorious members, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi."[97] The "Postwar Findings" volume of the study concluded that there was no evidence of any Iraqi support of al-Qaeda, al-Zarqawi, or Ansar al-Islam. The "Iraqi National Congress" volume concluded that "false information" from INC-affiliated sources was used to justify key claims in the prewar intelligence debate and that this information was "widely distributed in intelligence products" prior to the war. It also concluded that the INC "attempted to influence US policy on Iraq by providing false information through defectors directed at convincing the United States that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and had links to terrorists." The Senate report noted that in October 2002, "the DIA cautioned that the INC was penetrated by hostile intelligence services and would use the relationship to promote its own agenda." Senator John Rockefeller, the Committee's ranking Democrat, noted that "Today's reports show that the administration's repeated allegations of a past, present and future relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq were wrong and intended to exploit the deep sense of insecurity among Americans in the immediate aftermath of the September 11th attacks."[98] But the head Republican on the Committee, Senator Pat Roberts, charged, "The additional views of the Committee's Democrats are little more than a rehashing of the same unfounded allegations they've used for over three years." The "Postwar Findings" report had the following conclusions about Saddam's alleged links to al-Qaeda: Conclusion 1: The CIA's assessment that Iraq and al-Qaeda were "two independent actors trying to exploit each other" was accurate only about al-Qaeda. "Postwar findings indicate that Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qa'ida and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qa'ida to provide material or operational support." Conclusion 2: Postwar findings have indicated that there was only one meeting between representatives of Saddam Hussein and representatives of al-Qaeda. These findings also identified two occasions "not reported prior to the war, in which Saddam Hussein rebuffed meeting requests from an al-Qa'ida operative. The Intelligence Community has not found any other evidence of meetings between al-Qa'ida and Iraq." Conclusion 3: "Prewar Intelligence Community assessments were inconsistent regarding the likelihood that Saddam Hussein provided chemical and biological weapons (CBW) training to al-Qa'ida. Postwar findings support the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) February 2002 assessment that Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was likely intentionally misleading his debriefers when he said that Iraq provided two al-Qa'ida associates with chemical and biological weapons (CBW) training in 2000.... No postwar information has been found that indicates CBW training occurred and the detainee who provided the key prewar reporting about this training recanted his claims after the war." Conclusion 4: "Postwar findings support the April 2002 Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) assessment that there was no credible reporting on al-Qa'ida training at Salman Pak or anywhere else in Iraq. There have been no credible reports since the war that Iraq trained al-Qa'ida operatives at Salman Pak to conduct or support transnational terrorist operations." Conclusion 5: Postwar findings support the assessment that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and associates were present in Baghdad from May-November 2002. "Prewar assessments expressed uncertainty about Iraq's complicity in their presence, but overestimated the Iraqi regime's capabilities to locate them. Postwar information indicates that Saddam Hussein attempted, unsuccessfully, to locate and capture al-Zarqawi and that the regime did not have a relationship with, harbor, or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi." Conclusion 6: Prewar interactions between Saddam Hussein's government and al-Qaeda affiliate group Ansar al-Islam were attempts by Saddam to spy on the group rather than to support or work with them. "Postwar information reveals that Baghdad viewed Ansar al-Islam as a threat to the regime and that the IIS attempted to collect intelligence on the group." Conclusion 7: "Postwar information supports prewar Intelligence Community assessments that there was no credible information that Iraq was complicit in or had foreknowledge of the September 11 attacks or any other al-Qa'ida strike..... Postwar findings support CIA's January 2003 assessment, which judged that 'the most reliable reporting casts doubt' on one of the leads, an alleged meeting between Muhammad Atta and an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague, and confirm that no such meeting occurred. Prewar intelligence reporting cast doubt on the other lead as well." Conclusion 8: "No postwar information indicates that Iraq intended to use al-Qa'ida or any other terrorist group to strike the United States homeland before or during Operation Iraqi Freedom." Conclusion 9: "additional reviews of documents recovered in Iraq are unlikely to provide information that would contradict the Committee's findings or conclusions. The Committee believes that the results of detainee debriefs largely comport with documentary evidence, but the Committee cannot definitively judge the accuracy of statements made by individuals in custody and cannot, in every case, confirm that the detainee statements are truthful and accurate."
Being old doesn't mean the munitions aren't still deadly and of great interest to would be terrorists. That binary sarin shell was still viable. That's according to the ISG. It contained as much sarin as used in the Tokyo attack, an attack that experts said afterwords could have killed thousands had the cult properly dispersed the agent rather than simply poke holes in bags of it (and *pray*). The many mustard gas shells are also still highly deadly. The UN inspectors confirmed this. The fact that these munitions were part of pre-1991 stocks doesn't make them less potent or deadly. Furthermore, you are simply ignoring the part of the ISG report where they said they have a credible source who told them WMD related materials were moved to Syria before the war. And you are ignoring the question of why Iraq would go to so much trouble to sanitize files, computers and facilities related to WMD if they had no WMD, no WMD programs and no plan to fully reconstitute their WMD arsenal once sanctions were removed.
Bookmark the instance above. If Chooser tries the same thing next week, and he will, he will simply lie if you call him on it. He will ask you for the link to the last instance or otherwise imply that you are simply making the story up and have no proof. Hit him in the face with the link above.
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That is completely false. The ISG said the binary sarin shell had 4 to 5 liters of 40 percent Sarin. That's the same quantity and potency as the sarin used in the Tokyo sarin attack which killed about a dozen and injured thousands. And experts after the fact said Japan was lucky. Had the cultists properly dispersed that sarin rather than just poke holes in baggies full of it, they might have killed THOUSANDS. Even as many as died on 9/11.
Doesn't it pretty much destroy your case that Saddam was actively developing WMDs? Don't bother to answer, you moronic truthiopath.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
And you can prove it as long as nobody clicks your bullshit dead link. Huh?
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So what's the deal with you posting the bullshit dead links and then pretending that it simply didn't happen? Do you think we won't notice what a dishonest and manipulative sack of shit you are?
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Do you realize that nothing you posted pertains to BINARY sarin? You do know what that is, don't you? Or perhaps you don't. You see, binary sarin has an INDEFINITE shelf life.
Chooser, you dishonest sack of shit. You DELIBERATELY posted a bullshit dead link with the specific intent of fooling people on this forum. You are now acting like it didn't happen. What gives?
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Actually, I came to this thread when I'd gotten to the point on the other thread where mine was the last post. Check the time of the posts if you don't believe me. And sometime I'll get around to returning to the other thread to blow you out of the water again. But I'm curious. Did you ever get your browser to work? ROTFLOL!
Chooser, you proven - PROVEN - dishonest sack of shit. You are insane if you think I am going to let this go. You are insane if you think I am going to let you change the subject. You are insane if you think I am going to fall for your silly personal insutls. You are a proven liar. You deliberately posted a dead link with the specific intent of fooling people on this forum. You did this because the facts failed you and you could not admit that you were wrong.
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You are insane if you think I am going to fall for your silly personal insults on this. You DELIBERATELY posted a dead link to fool this forum when you got called on your bullshit. What do you have to say for yourself? You appear to be a very shameless and very cowardly liar. The facts to prove this up are on the thread above.
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You didn't do it once chooser, you did it twice in the course of about an hour. Both time you did it when you were repeatedly asked for facts you apparently couldn't provide. In deperation, you TWICE posted a dead link with a silly quote that miraculously supported your argument. It wasn't an accident. Not twice.
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We DO have a BozoFilter here now on our setup options. Join the many, the proud, the bac-free.
Chooser, you silence tells me that you are guilty as fucking sin. I expected three things from your sorry lying ass here: 1. Change the subject. 2. Ignore the question. 3. Go personal. You've now tried one and two. Try three now. I will respond by telling you to go to hell and then get back on subject ... shit ball.
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BAC, you worthless piece of shit! I illustrated to you at ElPee that the US forces admitted that this one piece was a unique an freak find, representing nothing more than an overlooked round!
Can I help it if the CIA changed their URL to this document? Fine. If you weren't so lazy you could use the link Nola provided to Annex F: http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/report/2004/isg-final-report/isg-final-report_vol3_cw-anx-f.htm "The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist." Or you could use your browser and find out where the CIA moved the report: https://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/chap5_annxF.html "The most interesting discovery has been a 152mm binary Sarin artillery projectile—containing a 40 percent concentration of Sarin—which insurgents attempted to use as an Improvised Explosive Device (IED). The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist." But you are too lazy to do either and besides ... what it says is still the same.
I had no trouble obtaining the document at the link I provided on that thread. Face it ... you just don't know how to use your browser or are too lazy to try.
You are a sorry lying piece of scum arn't you. That is the official CIA page and you can't get on without an ID. And you know that. It's a nice convenient dead link form which you can attribute your quote. And remember, you didn't just do it once. You did it twice in one hour. It wasn't an accident.
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You twice provided dead links within the course of an hour. It wasn't an accident. I can understand your desire to spin it. It really does make you look like a lying sack of shit.
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As an aside, these articles are not on point. You are now posting other articles, on other subjects to hide the fact that you tried to flim flam the forum with a dead link. The articles we were talking about dealt with Zarqawi. The ones you are trying to fob off here do not. You are lying to us again.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestTaking note of the statement made by the DirectorGeneral of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) to the Agency's Board of Governors on the subject on 9 June 1981 and his statement to the Council at its 2288th meeting on 19 June 1981,
#86. To: BeAChooser (#84)
Israel???
#87. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#85)
Al Qaeda members were in the United States plotting.
It was Saudi Arabians who planned the 9/11 operation, funded the 9/11 operation, and executed the 9/11 operation.
It is alright for Saudis to attack the twin towers as long as some Saudi government official says "My bad" afterwards.
As for Al Qaeda being allowed to operate freely in Iraq, that did not occur until the Bush administration assumed responsibility for running the place.
As Al Qaeda had no WMD
and Iraq had no WMD to give them
Iraq and Al Qaeda were enemies
#88. To: BeAChooser (#87)
The dozen al-Qaeda put on trial and convicted in Jordan said they met al-Zarqawi in Baghdad BEFORE the invasion.
#89. To: BeAChooser (#87)
That binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED after the invasion proves you wrong. And there were hundreds of other shells of various types found containing materials we wouldn't want terrorists to get their hands on.
#90. To: BeAChooser (#87)
The dozen al-Qaeda put on trial and convicted in Jordan said they met al-Zarqawi in Baghdad BEFORE the invasion.
#91. To: BeAChooser (#87)
And what is it with you and Israel?
#92. To: BeAChooser (#87)
That binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED after the invasion proves you wrong.
#93. To: BeAChooser (#87)
Odd that al-Zarqawi would pick Baghdad (seat of government of his enemy and a city filled with security types from Saddam's regime) to meet with the terrorists he was dispatching to kill tens of thousands in Jordan. Odd that al-Zarqawi would go to a Baghdad hospital to get treatment. Odd that Iraq openly applauded the actions of their enemy. Odd that Iraq had friendly contacts with the Taliban after 9/11 to warn them about a possible US attack to get bin Laden.
#94. To: BeAChooser (#87)
#95. To: BeAChooser (#87)
That binary sarin shell
#96. To: BeAChooser (#87)
And what is it with you and Israel?
-- Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger
-- Anne Henderson-Pollard quoted by Assistant U.S. Attorney David Geneson at her sentencing hearing from an interview with Mike Wallace that aired on 60 Minutes.
-- Eric Margolis, The Toronto Sun, Jan. 14, 1999
#97. To: ..., ALL (#88)
But you can't give him any dates here because that would blow your bullshit out of the water. As you recall, this alleged incident took place in April of 2004.
#98. To: BeAChooser (#97)
#99. To: ..., ALL (#89)
"That binary sarin shell that turned up as an IED after the invasion proves you wrong."
Recall that you are quoting NewsMax here. All the repectable publications noted that your single rusty shell was left over from a time before the first Gulf war.
#100. To: BeAChooser (#97)
(Edited)
#101. To: BeAChooser (#99)
And for the record, you are once again wrong. This didn't come from Newsmax. It came from the ISG report.
#102. To: BeAChooser, Red Jones (#99)
And for the record, you are once again wrong. This didn't come from Newsmax. It came from the ISG report.
#103. To: All (#101)
#104. To: ... (#103)
Let me remind everyone that Chooser used his fake link tactic on another thread about an hour ago. He made grandiose claims, got called on it and then posted a dead link to "prove" his point.
#105. To: BeAChooser, ..., ALL (#97)
I suggest folks visit the following thread to see ... and his argument blown out of the water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein_and_al-Qaeda
#106. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#92)
While a small number of old, abandoned chemical munitions have been discovered,
In each case, the recovered munitions appear to have been part of the pre-1991 Gulf war stocks,
#107. To: robin, ALL (#104)
#108. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#94)
They were so old and degraded they were about as potent as camel dung or BAC manure.
#109. To: BeAChooser (#106)
The fact that these munitions were part of pre-1991 stocks doesn't make them less potent or deadly.
#110. To: BeAChooser (#108)
The ISG said the binary sarin shell had 4 to 5 liters of 40 percent Sarin.
#111. To: BeAChooser (#108)
#112. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#95)
then tell me about the magic vintage sarin.
#113. To: BeAChooser, Christine (#112)
#114. To: ..., ALL (#100)
You lose the argument on one thread and you come over here and try to restart the argument in exactly the same way.
#115. To: BeAChooser (#112)
(Edited)
#116. To: BeAChooser, Christine (#114)
Actually, I came to this thread when I'd gotten to the point on the other thread where mine was the last post. Check the time of the posts if you don't believe me. And sometime I'll get around to returning to the other thread to blow you out of the water again. But I'm curious. Did you ever get your browser to work? ROTFLOL!
#117. To: BeAChooser (#114)
#118. To: ... (#116)
#119. To: BeAChooser (#108)
#120. To: beachooser, Minerva, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#99)
The existence of this binary weapon not only raises questions about the number of viable chemical weapons remaining in Iraq and raises the possibility that a larger number of binary, long-lasting chemical weapons still exist."
#121. To: ..., ALL (#101)
Chooser, you are a really pathetic bald faced liar.
For the second time tonight you posted a dead link when you got backed into a corner by the facts.
THE LINK YOU POSTED ABOVE IS A DEAD LINK!
THAT IS TWICE IN TWO HOURS YOU POSTED A FAKE DEAD LINK TO ALLEGEDLY BACK UP YOUR DISHONEST SHIT. IT ISN'T AN ACCIDENT CHOOSER.
#122. To: ..., ALL (#103)
Let me remind everyone that Chooser used his fake link tactic on another thread about an hour ago.
#123. To: BeAChooser (#121)
Can I help it if the CIA changed their URL to this document?
#124. To: BeAChooser (#122)
I had no trouble obtaining the document at the link I provided on that thread
#125. To: BeAChooser, Christine (#121)
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