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Neocon Nuttery
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Title: National Review: Brit Wimps
Source: National Review Online
URL Source: http://corner.nationalreview.com/po ... ZkNWU5ZGQ2YTAxMmJiNmQ3MDRmNmU=
Published: Apr 4, 2007
Author: John Derbyshire
Post Date: 2007-04-04 13:22:20 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 957
Comments: 22

Once again, it's me and Ralph Peters on the same wavelength, deploring the cowardice of the British sailors and marines kidnapped by Iran. When it happened, I said I hoped the ones who'd shamed their country would be court-martialed on return to Blighty, and given dishonorable discharges after a couple years breaking rocks in the Outer Hebrides (which, believe me—I've been there—have a LOT of rocks).

Now, I confess, I wouldn't shed a tear if some worse fate befell them.

The only coherent response I get to these sentiments is: "How do you know what they've been through? How would YOU stand up?" To which the obvious reply is the one Dr. Johnson gave in some similar case: "I may criticize a carpenter who makes me a bad table, though I cannot make a table myself. It is not my job to make tables." It is the job of a Royal Marine to fight, and if necessary suffer and die, for his country. They know that when they go in. It's what they are told! I nurse a quiet hope that if put to the test, I would stand up as well as any Marine. Whether or not I would, however, is irrelevant. Whether or not I could stand up well to torture, I expect Marines to.

And in any case, there was no evidence of torture or mistreatment in any of the filmed cases I have seen. They look just fine. You can't fake that. The girl sailor had that headscarf on within hours. From what I've heard of torture, even weaker cases can hold out for a few days.

As for the argument that these people might have buckled under threats to hurt their comrades, I should think a soldier's answer would be: "They are soldiers, same as me. They know the risks of service, and they'll answer for themselves."

In any case, a trained soldier will have been instructed that these Iranian fanatics are without any scruples. They practice what Lenin called "revolutionary morality"—i.e. whatever advances the revolution is good, whatever does not, is bad. It should be assumed that everything the Iranians say is a lie. If they say: "Do this, and we won't harm your mates," and you do it, they will harm your mates anyway. Of course, this kind of truth is much harder to get across to young people who have been brainwashed from elementary school to believe that their own culture is corrupt, evil, and false, while the cultures of Third World barbarians are morally superior...

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 13.

#6. To: Brian S (#0)

There is food for thought here, but Derbs misses it with an easy play. It is clear the sorts of soldiers in harms way are not the sorts of soldiers we think of from heroic tales of youth. It is a worthwhile point to show that their behavior is well, odd, for military folks, considering the short duration.

I am certainly plenty happy that there seems to be a peaceful end to this story, and the soldiers, through no effort of their own, seemed to have made a mockery of the whole absurd adventure in that part of the world.

JohnGalt  posted on  2007-04-04   15:13:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: JohnGalt (#6)

It's not easy to be heroic in a cause that you don't believe in.

aristeides  posted on  2007-04-04   15:15:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: aristeides (#7)

Yup, but there is many a tale of Vietnam POWs who knew the BSness of the war but didn't break. It's just not something that you do. (Another example is that the death penalty--the firing squad-- should have used against the torturers of AG but instead they got light prison sentences.)

JohnGalt  posted on  2007-04-04   15:18:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: JohnGalt (#8)

Yup, but there is many a tale of Vietnam POWs who knew the BSness of the war but didn't break. It's just not something that you do.

I guess what you view as being commendable, I view as being stupid.

The Vietnam War was based on lies to benefit the MIC. You yourself call it a B.S. war.

And if POW's knew it to be the case at the time they were held captive, who cares whether they allowed themselves to break or not? Breaking might have made life easier for them while they were held as POW's.

The US gov't didn't give a damn about their lives - the gov't drafted them into a a shameless war of aggression to support a corrupt S. V. gov't and to line the pockets of defense contracters. The US gov't then left many of the POW's behind to die in N. V. after the war ended inspite of knowing full well that Americans were still being held as POW's.

There was no honor to uphold by the POW's - fedgov't was the worst offender of "dishonor" from the get-go.

LBJ should be tried for treason posthumously, lying cheating corrupt war pig that he was. He got us into a war for lies so he and his MIC pals could profit from the blood of drafted American young men and from the blood of Vietnamese. I hope LBJ rots in hell.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-04-04   15:29:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: scrapper2 (#10) (Edited)

Admirable. If you let the hate blind you too much, you'll miss it and end up with an inverted aesthetics (by Western standards) that puts the rats in the good, and the warrior poet, that most beautiful of creatures, in the bad. Warrior poets, these Brits were not.

JohnGalt  posted on  2007-04-04   15:47:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: JohnGalt (#12)

the warrior poet, that most beautiful of creatures,

The great hero archetype depicted in legends of yore has been replaced. I guess you did not receive the memo from Henry.

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy."

-- Henry A. Kissinger, quoted by Monika Jensen-Stevenson, Kiss the Boys Goodbye, Dutton, 1990, Page 97, citing The Final Days, Woodward and Bernstein (Simon & Schuster, 1976)

scrapper2  posted on  2007-04-04   16:05:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 13.

#16. To: scrapper2 (#13)

No, I got it.

It was a picture of Lyndie England.

These Brits are almost comic relief in our tragedy. Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are very much alive.

JohnGalt  posted on  2007-04-04 16:21:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 13.

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