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Title: Conservatives Love to Fantasize About Their Own Persecution and Subversiveness
Source:
Kos
URL Source: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/6/211121/9816
Published: Apr 6, 2007
Author: EmperorHadrian
Post Date: 2007-04-06 22:48:45 by ...
Keywords: None
Views: 1090
Comments: 94
I was watching Scarborough Country on MSNBC the other day. He seemed to suggest that he thinks Christians are being persecuted. That got me thinking about a larger issue. Why is it that conservatives love to revel in fantasies of their own marginality and persecution? Why is it they have these persecution fantasies? You don't just notice this with the religious right. You notice this amongst all varieties of social conservative. "Christians" think they are being persecuted by evil secularists who run everything from Wal-Mart to the courts. People who oppose gay rights think they are continuously looked down upon, and their views are constantly under assault by, the "gay agenda." So I must ask this question: why is it conservatives love to play victims, and fantasize about being persecuted? One thing that is interesting about the conservative persecution fantasy is that it is remarkably similar to leftist persecution fantasies during the early 20th century. Conservative complaints about an effete overclass, which the common middle American man can never defeat is remarkably similar to Marxist beliefs of the 1920s and 1930s, that the common man was caught in a machine run by the elite capitalists. Complaints by people like Rush Limbaugh, that the "liberal elite" is running and ruining everything are remarkably similar to Marxist complaints about how evil capitalists were doing the same thing. One way to answer the question about the right-wing persecution complex is to look at where most conservatives are on the ideological spectrum. Any democrat who might be viewed as "far left" (such as Denis Kucinich) isn't a fraction as far to the left as people like Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Tom DeLay or Dick Cheney are to the right. People on the extreme of either end of the ideological spectrum are ideologues. Since most conservatives are so far to the right, many of them are ideologues. Ideologues are uninterested in fact or reason. They are convinced that they are always right about everything. Thus no one can convince them they are wrong about anything or reason with them. If you knew the absolute truth about everything, why would you let someone use facts or anything else to convince you that you don't know the absolute truth about everything? Since conservatives are ideologues, it appears that part of their ideology is that they are constantly being persecuted by an overclass that looks down on them. The overcalass that they believe is perseucting them is what they call the "liberal elite." Much like Emmanuel Goldstien in George Orwell's book "Nineteen-Eightyfour," this elite overclass deosn't actually exist. It isn't the ACLU that forces Wal-Mart clerks to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas," it is the management of Wal-Mart, who sees "Happy Holidays" as being more neutral in our pluralistic society. It isn't the "Hollywood elite" who continuesly pushes every form of social deviance through movies and television, it is the economic conservatives who run Hollywood. Hollywood and Wal-Mart are both commercial enterprises, run by economic conservatives. The same can be said about everything from the media to corporate policies regarding equal employment for gays. Becuase conservatives are ideologues, we can never convince them that they aren't being persecuted. Thus, we cannot reason with these conservatives on this issue, just like we can't reason with Bush on the escalation in Iraq, or that Saddam wasn't actually behind 9/11, or that WMDs were not actually found in Iraq. They are both convinced that they know the absolute truth. One of the more ridiculous of the persecution fantasies is the idea that somehow Christians are being persecuted. Now by "Christians," typically we mean Evangelicals. Evangelicals routinely use the term "Christian" interchangeably with the term "Evangelical." Except for a few fundamentalist Catholics, few Catholics and few mainline protestants claim to be persecuted. And few of these people use the term "Christian" to be interchangeable with their denomination. What makes the claim that "Christians" are persecuted so ridiculous is that 85% of all Americans are Christians. Wal-Mart isn't run by atheists. The courts aren't full of atheists. One toy the religious right loves is when some companies tell their employees to saw "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" to customers. The religious right sees this as a great assault on "Christians." Never mind that the decision to have employees say this (usually the companies don't care which one their employees use anyway) has a marketing and public relations rationale. It isn't because atheists run corporate America and hate "Christians." We saw another example of this religious right persecution fantasy with former Alabama Supreme Court Chief Justice Roy Moore and his Ten Commandments monument. Make no mistkae, Moore put this monument outside of the Alabama Courthouse deliberately to draw a lawsuit from the ACLU. And the only possible outcome of such a lawsuit would be that a federal court orders Moore to remove the monument. And then he tried to turn himself into a "martyr" by refusing to abide by the orders of the federal court, which costed him his job. Another area where the right-wing loves to play the victim is with gay rights. They love to act as though gays demanding equal rights is an assault on their "values" and actually the demand for greater rights than everyone else by the "homosexual agenda." They claim to be persecuted by the "homosexual agenda" when, in something typical of a right-wing claim, the exact opposite is true. It is the right-wing who is persecuting gays, not the other way around. This again goes to an interesting point in these right-wing claims, regardless of if they are about gay-rights, religion, or whatever: that these people who claim to be persecuted are actually part of a majority group. Typically it has been minorities (or sometimes majority groups that have been disenfranchised and thus had been politically powerless for generations) that have been persecuted. You can't have congress persecute the majority, when the majority is what elects congress. Another area you see these ludicrous arguments are in relation to the media. Conservatives claim they are victims of "liberal bias" in the media. In reality, the media (whether its CBS, ABC, NBC, the Washington Post, the New York Times, or whoever) is not biased. Reality has a liberal bias. The MSM is biased only so far as it is biased towards reality. Since conservative claims typically don't come from fact or reality, and yet what the MSM reports on does come from fact and reality, conservatives claim liberal bias. This is a useful mechanism, because it allows them to dismiss all negative stories about them as being the products of bias. Again, in a manner you find throughout conservative claims, what they claim is actually the exact opposite of what is true. It isn't the MSM that is biased, and the "conservative media" that is "fair and balanced" and presents "the conservative side of the story." The conservative media doesn't just present the conservative side of the story, it does exactly what conservatives accuse the MSM of doing: it distorts facts, makes up reality, exists solely for the benefit of a single political party, and filters everything through a partisan and ideological lens. Thomas Frank talks about this conservative persecution fantasy in his book, "What's the Matter with Kansas?" His convincingly argues that these persecution fantasies are generated by the (decidedly not persecuted) economic conservatives who run the republican party. They use these fantasies to stroke the anger and indignation of social conservatives. They make those social conservatives feel helpless and like victims. The enemy, they are told, is the Frenchified "liberal elite," who looks down its nose at these "regular people" in "middle America." It is this persecution complex that the social conservatives end up with, that caused them to continue electing republicans. It doesn't matter that, when in office, those same republicans pass laws that screw the social conservatives economicly. It doesn't matter that these republicans deregulate, deunionize, keep wages low, outsource jobs, keep college expensive and keep healthcare unaffordable. Not only that, but the republicans in power ignore the demands of the social conservatives. Abortion is never outlawed, school praryer never returns, gay rights are never rolled back. The social conservatives don't care because every two years they are again told about the evils of gay marriage and abortion, and how democrats have Christianity and love killing babies. The fiscal conservatives running for office make the social conservatives feel like perseucted victims. And because of that, the social conservatives return to the ballot box again and again, to proudly reelect their republican masters.
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#1. To: BeAChooser (#0)
You're a whiner. Maybe this will help you with your self realization.
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The first mistake of the day. Just stop this foolishness, and things will go much better for you.
It seems important that someone should watch this dreck and report back to us. I nominate "...". Does grammar count?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Great analysis. Maybe extremists need scapegoats? Someone to focus your hate on.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
exactly - and these people vote against their own economic self-interest over and over. it's absurd. I like to ask social conservatives why the republicans have controlled the entire government for several years now and these issues still remain. the obvious answer is that the republicans need those issues every election cycle. the standard answer: obstructionist democrats.
Central to American "conservative" identity is the persecution complex. They are besieged. Constantly. Enemies everywhere. Great vast swirling conspiracies of nebulous "liberals" are out to "get them" and "Destroy America". A conspiracy of a few powerful wealthy families motivated by wealth and power and legacy and control? No- that is "kookery". But some sort of multi generational march of "liberals" to destroy them and their "way of life"? Yep- they embrace that. It is funny- as much time as these "conservatives" spend denouncing "conspiracy theories"- central to their beliefs is the presence of multiple conspiracies against them. As a reichwinger myself- and a devourer of reichwinger propaganda growing up- one of things I now see- is how a constant state of fear and hate of various enemies was always being fostered- and always at a fever pitch of alarm. American "conservatives" are always one election away from having their "way of life" destroyed. They are kept in a constant state of alarm- of emergency. In the very simple universe of American "Conservatives" there are only two types of people- evil "Liberals" whom they think literally want to kill them, and good conservatives. By the way- Dems are encouraged to think the same in reverse. They literally are incapable of framing anything remotely political without using that paradigm. Don't support the Iraq war? Well- you are a liberal! Or a "useful idiot" of the Liberls. What is "Conservative" about the Iraq war? Nothing. But that doesn't matter. Note that when Limbaugh and Coulter and the other ranks of "conservative media" personalities talk about these "liberals"- they rarely mention names. And when they do- they misrepresent their opinions. "Conservatives" have been pretending that Dems are "antiwar" despite their very pro war rhetoric- and their actions. They have to pretend that Hillary is "Antiwar". Have to keep the rubes in a state of alarm and fear.
I once saw Mathews dismember Coulter this way. He got her to give a point by point description of a "typical liberal". At the end he asked her to name one real person who fit her "typical" description. She couldn't of course. Instead she stumbled around and said things like "all of them" and "lots of them".
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Grammar? If you discount reason, why in the world would you be concerned about grammar? Lord help us all. Quickly, please. Thank you.
Liberals? Ain't they fat people that drink beers?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
If a neocon jumped off a cliff, how many genrations of innocent workers would be paying for the candleabras at his wake? Is two fingers snapping appreciably louder than one?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
The "liberals" of which Coulter speaks can be found. In a few enclaves on the Coasts- San Francisco, Boston, New York, LA. But these people are not in charge of anything. They are true believers in the "system" for the most part. Ride their bikes, sort their garbage for recycling, put up solar panels, support "gay" rights, and have their little meaningless town councils that vote to impeach Bush. They are big advocates of voting. Big advocates of petitions. Always organizing something. They fully believe in the status quo for the most part. In other words- they are every bit as deluded as their reichwinger counterparts. They hardly control anything much less run vast conspiracies against reichwingers in Red States. The "liberal" is a cultural boogeyman whored pundits like Coulter tell ghost stories about. They don't really exist as some conspiratorial force out to "destroy America" and make the Christians take down their Christmas trees. IT IS A FAKE PARADIGM- A DEVICE OF MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL.
Not if they are Catholics and it is Friday and the beer isn't made from fish.
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Very good! Now, for 200, who first used the phrase "bicketty bam" ?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
If yur so smart, how are corrugated boxes made?
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With corrogation approved by local standards?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
It is the sound of one clap clapping.
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It's Polka magic. "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That's best explanation so far, you win!
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
They got with the program a long time ago, sucked into the PC multicult. Little more than social clubs, really.
Remember the movie Groundhog Day? Good flick. What if instead of waking up over and over to the same day, time went on, but everyone in the town suffered from a recurring amnesia? And what if instead of falling in love, Bill Murray's protagonist wanted to be mayor? That'd be a neat movie.
Is two fingers snapping appreciably louder than one? "People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar Dakmar posted on 2007-04-06 23:16:20 ET Reply Trace Private Reply #11. To: ... (#7) The "liberals" of which Coulter speaks can be found. In a few enclaves on the Coasts- San Francisco, Boston, New York, LA. But these people are not in charge of anything. They are true believers in the "system" for the most part. Ride their bikes, sort their garbage for recycling, put up solar panels, support "gay" rights, and have their little meaningless town councils that vote to impeach Bush. They are big advocates of voting. Big advocates of petitions. Always organizing something. They fully believe in the status quo for the most part. In other words- they are every bit as deluded as their reichwinger counterparts. They hardly control anything much less run vast conspiracies against reichwingers in Red States. The "liberal" is a cultural boogeyman whored pundits like Coulter tell ghost stories about. They don't really exist as some conspiratorial force out to "destroy America" and make the Christians take down their Christmas trees. IT IS A FAKE PARADIGM- A DEVICE OF MANAGEMENT AND CONTROL. Great stuff. Good thoughts, and thank you, both. Evening cheers.
The Zio-Communists killed 60,000,000 people in Russia and most of these people were Christians. They should pay attention to systemactic anti-Christian campaigns. And conservatives are not ideologues. We are for principles, such as, free markets, property rights and the Bill of Rights which have proven themselves beneficial. Neo-Cons are Zionists and not true conservatives. They are self- destructive and will destroy America.
The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie
Yes, I go in for the extreme religion myself. I often put seeds in my mouth and rest in a lotus position until they sprout and grow out my left nostril. Dakmar taught me this one.
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Louie, louie! "People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Remember to drink lots of water, and dig your toes into the sand anytime you feel like.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
I know I do...without a doubt, but I've slacked off as of late!!! :/
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
This isn't Russia. There are no cadres of murderous communists running around burning icons and using churches as Red Army Stables. There is no "Conspiracy" against Christians in this country. And it's nice that you and the three other "real conservatives" want to still use that term to describe yourselves- but in the real world of commonly accepted political parlance- American "conservatism" is defined by the reichwingers at Freerepublic and the mainstream of the GOP- fascism, state worship, and militarism- without principle or honor and utterly amoral. That is what "conservative" has come to mean in this country.
25% is not a majority. He could at least try to be consistent. Make no mistkae, Moore put this monument outside of the Alabama Courthouse deliberately to draw a lawsuit from the ACLU. And the only possible outcome of such a lawsuit would be that a federal court orders Moore to remove the monument. And then he tried to turn himself into a "martyr" by refusing to abide by the orders of the federal court, which costed him his job. I wonder: Did MLK suspect marches might result in violence against marchers? You can't have congress persecute the majority, when the majority is what elects congress. And after 2000 the author accepts the facade at face value? He should read Competitive Altruism and White Self-Destruction. Then, maybe, he'll get a clue. His convincingly argues that these persecution fantasies are generated by the (decidedly not persecuted) economic conservatives who run the republican party. They use these fantasies to stroke the anger and indignation of social conservatives. They make those social conservatives feel helpless and like victims. Not bad. To the non-Bolshi remnant of America the Republican party establishment is the "good cop." And yes, the establishment wants them to feel helpless, which makes it easier to screw 'em over. They do this in order to keep people buying into the system, and keep living with each other under the system, which they might not otherwise do. The feeling of helplessness makes them cooperate in their own undoing.
Remember the movie Groundhog Day? Good flick. What if instead of waking up over and over to the same day, time went on, but everyone in the town suffered from a recurring amnesia? And what if instead of falling in love, Bill Murray's protagonist wanted to be mayor? That'd be a neat movie.
Unless they are overseas Orthodox Christians - see Bosnia, Kosovo, Russia and the elimination of Orthodox Christians from Iraq and the planned elimination of Orthodox/Eastern Christians from the only Middle Eastern countries where they live persecution free - Syria and Iran.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Probably - Peace rallies are designed to show the intolerance of the oppressor. See this example from history: The Jallianwala Bagh Massacre, also known as the Amritsar Massacre, was named after the Jallianwala Bagh (Garden) in the northern Indian city of Amritsar, where, on April 13, 1919, British Indian Army soldiers under the command of Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer opened fire on an unarmed gathering of men, women and children. The firing lasted about 10 minutes and 1600 rounds were fired. Official sources place the casualties at 379. According to private sources, the number was over 1000, with more than 2000 wounded,[1] and Civil Surgeon Dr Smith indicated that they were over 1800.[2] The troops were commanded by Brigadier-General Reginald Dyer who, immediately upon entering the Bagh and without the slightest warning to the crowd to disperse, ordered his fifty riflemen to fire, concentrating especially on the areas where the crowd was thickest. The firing started at 17:15 and lasted for about ten to fifteen minutes. During the shooting a total of 1650 rounds were discharged into the crowd. The bagh, or garden, was bounded on all sides by brick walls and buildings and had only five narrow entrances, most of which were kept permanently locked. Since there was only one exit except for the one already manned by the troops, people desperately tried to climb the walls of the park. Many of the people jumped into a well inside the compound to escape from the bullets. A plaque in the monument says that 120 bodies were plucked out of the well alone. After the firing was over, hundreds of people had been killed and thousands had been injured. Official estimates put the figures at 379 killed (337 men, 41 boys and a six week old baby) and 200 injured, though the actual figure is hotly disputed and many Indian sources put it much higher (see above); the wounded could not be moved from where they had fallen, as a curfew had been declared. Debate about the actual figures continues to this day. Back in his headquarters Dyer reported to his superiors that he had been confronted by a revolutionary army, and had been obliged to teach a moral lesson to the Punjab. In a telegram sent to Dyer, British Lieutenant-Governor of Punjab, Sir Michael O'Dwyer wrote: "Your action is correct. Lieutenant Governor approves."[3] Many Englishmen in India, as well as the British press, defended Dyer as the man who had saved British pride and honour. The Morning Post opened a fund for Dyer, and contributions poured in. An American woman donated 100 pounds, adding "I fear for the British women there now that Dyer has been dismissed." O'Dwyer requested that martial law be imposed upon Amritsar and other areas; this was granted by the Viceroy, Lord Chelmsford, after the massacre. Dyer was called to appear before the Hunter Commission, a commission of inquiry into the massacre that was ordered to convene by Secretary of State for India Edwin Montagu, in late 1919. Dyer admitted before the commission that he came to know about the meeting at the Jallianwala Bagh at 12:40 hours that day but took no steps to prevent it. He stated that he had gone to the Bagh with the deliberate intention of opening fire if he found a crowd assembled there. "I think it quite possible that I could have dispersed the crowd without firing but they would have come back again and laughed, and I would have made, what I consider, a fool of myself." — Dyer's response to the Hunter Commission Enquiry. Dyer said he would have used his machine guns if he could have got them into the enclosure, but these were mounted on armoured cars. He said he did not stop firing when the crowd began to disperse because he thought it was his duty to keep firing until the crowd dispersed, and that a little firing would do no good. He confessed that he did not take any steps to tend to the wounded after the firing. "Certainly not. It was not my job. Hospitals were open and they could have gone there," was his response. In the storm of outrage which followed the release of the Hunter Report in 1920, Dyer was placed on the inactive list and his rank reverted to Colonel since he was no longer in command of a Brigade. The then Commander-in-Chief stated that Dyer would no longer be offered employment in India. Dyer was also in very poor health, and so he was sent home to England on a hospital ship. Some senior British officers applauded his suppression of "another Indian Mutiny". The House of Lords passed a measure commending him. The House of Commons, however, censured him; in the debate Winston Churchill claimed: "The incident in Jallian Wala Bagh was an extraordinary event, a monstrous event, an event which stands in singular and sinister isolation". Dyer's action was condemned worldwide. He was officially censured by the British Government and resigned in 1920. However, many in Britain did not condemn Dyer's actions, some labelling him the "Saviour of the Punjab". The Morning Post started a sympathy fund for Dyer and received over £26,000. Dyer was presented with a memorial book inscribed with the names of well-wishers. In India the massacre evoked feelings of deep anguish and anger. It catalysed the freedom movement in the Punjab against British rule and paved the way for Mohandas Gandhi's Non-Cooperation Movement against the British in 1920. It was also motivation for a number of other revolutionaries, including Bhagat Singh. The Nobel laureate Rabindranath Tagore returned his knighthood to the King- Emperor in protest. The massacre ultimately became an important catalyst of the Indian independence movement.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It's wingnuts, not conservatives, who feel persecuted. The conservatives have been driven out of the GOP. Only the real nuts left. "Shrink the gummint down so you can drown it in a bathtub" or "Jeebus be comin down to take me and my family away any minute now." Not much else left. Except the fascists who exploit the dimwits.
I'm looking forward to the new comic strip, Dakmar and Jeff Rense.
Remember the movie Groundhog Day? Good flick. What if instead of waking up over and over to the same day, time went on, but everyone in the town suffered from a recurring amnesia? And what if instead of falling in love, Bill Murray's protagonist wanted to be mayor? That'd be a neat movie.
Sounds like fun. I get to be Arthur Dent, ok?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
And Darth wanted Luke to strike at him in anger.
Remember the movie Groundhog Day? Good flick. What if instead of waking up over and over to the same day, time went on, but everyone in the town suffered from a recurring amnesia? And what if instead of falling in love, Bill Murray's protagonist wanted to be mayor? That'd be a neat movie.
Something like that.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Those are not conspiracies against Christians. In all those areas- the religion of the people is of no consequence to what is happening or has happened to them. If the Serbs of Kosovo were Rastafarians they would have been treated no differently by our Cabal government. I doubt anyone in Washington has given a fig of thought to the fate of Christian minorities in Iraq or anywhere else they might invade and conquoer. They don't care. Quite simply- no one is persecuting Christians for the sake of them being Christians.
The "christian" countries are the only ones being pressured to multi-culturalise, how do you explain that, kung-fu?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is around to hear it, do the branches on one side get smashed when it hits the ground?
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Not exactly. Orthodox Christians being a type of Christian alien to the reichwingers as you so aptly named them makes them fall into the other category and thus why they are not given much thought. I have a feeling that if there existed an evangelical Christian country out there with all the social values the Freepernuts claim they stand for but it stood in the way of American foreign policy they would find a reason to support a war against them. It always amused me that Freepernuts would pile on the hate for France's Chirac when his party is a right of center party. They got it into their heads that France was lefty while the Freepernut love affair with the UK's Blair is not hindered by the fact he is left of 'Hitlery'.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I am sure Iraq would rather be pressed to "multi culturize" rather than be occupied and subject to murder, mayhem, and abject grinding poverty. Iraq is de facto three countries right now. The Serbs should be thankful they don't sit over oil fields rather than a pipeline route and some mines of semi precious metals. And a good way to keep your middle class in line and diverted is to foist some minority on them and then sit back and let things play out. The reason why Moslem countries are not being subjected to this- is because they are getting worse- war and pillage.
It's not the question that's anti-semetic, only the answer.
We should talk the Senate into paying us not to call people "kung-fu" anymore. With me?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
Freepernuts hate whom they are told to hate. They could be made to hate (and fear) a nation that was virtually a carbon copy of themselves with little effort. Rapture nutterism in America isn't really about the spiritual- it is about the material and it is highly nationalistic. Its a sick twisted tribal revenge fantasy and a cult of prosperity (their preachers flaunt their wealth for a reason). There is a hostility towards all religious belief among an intellectual strata in this country and that occassionaly finds expression in high profile law suits to take down a creche somewhere on a town square or keep the ten commandments out of schools. But that isn't a "War on Christians". It is jackasses being jackasses. The people running our foreign policy don't give a crap about access to churches in Israel, or the plight of the Iraqi Christians, or the treatment of Evangelicals in Turkey. And it doesn't matter to them what religion the Serbs are- or the Greeks. They would screw them no matter what religion they were.
I always thought that was a side effect of Chirac's disdain for George and Dicks Excellent Adventure.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
And by the way- the most "European" of Moslem countries is being pressured to "multi culturize" as a pre-condition of getting into the European Union. Unless the already highly secular (if corrupt) government of Turkey doesn't do more to make Islam little more than what Christianity has become in Europe- devoid of real content, a cultural whisper, and deracinated of content and prestiege- then they don't get in the "prosperity" club- but rather are treated like how the west treats all non member countries without nukes- as peons to provide raw materials or slave labor in sweat shops.
That is a little off the mark as someone who has very real links/info to the region. I know to you its sounds like they are trying to make Turkey accept a destabilizing 'multi-cultural force' but how can the EU accept a Turkey that does not allow people to worship freely? The issue of course is Islam - why should the EU lower standards to let Turkey in? You want to join a club? Then meet the club's membership standards. By the way - if ever there was a nation that was multi-cultural it is Turkey. Homogenous Turkey or Turkish ethnicity is a modern Kemalist invention.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Please. They don't care about people not being allowed to worship freely in Turkey. They want Islam deracinated like Christianity is in Europe. They want Ramadam to be the same sort of contentless consumer mega holiday and orgy of spending that Christmas has become. And if the Turks don't show enough "tolerance" (ie- cultural nihilism) they don't get in the club but rather get the same "free trade" treatment the West doles out to the rest of the world. It isn't like being in the European Union is just another club. It means you are a "made nation" and can join in the plunder of the rest of the world. Turkey has a choice. Surrender to the same forces of "multi culturism" that the West has become and be "rich" or hold onto their culture and be a slightly better off exploited second world nation whose biggest export is young males to Europe to be coolies and peons.
Be that as it may and if I understand you correctly - it is the EU's club is it not? Why should Turkey be able to join the EU (and I am no fan of the EU) without meeting the EU's conditions? Turkey has NO RIGHT to join the EU - joining the EU is a condition of privilege not a god given right (if I can phrase it that way). Turkey does not like the membership conditions - then they should not join.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
There is a conspiracy against those who believe in freedom of speech in particular and white people in particular. When the dollar collapses, wages are cut 50% and pensions cut 90%, the government will have to defend itself at all costs against people (mostly white) who believe in freedom. I urge people to move out of major American cities. I expect the dollar to collapse and America to go into a state of chaos before the end of 2009. And it has all happened because of a plan made by Wall Street and the Zionists.
The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie
I am not arguing right of the club to set their rules. But when the club is a club of criminal pirate nations that ask you to shed your identity in order to stop being abused by this club and enjoy its benefits- that is a different dynamic. Membership in this club derives benefits that are NOT available elsewhere. You asked if Moslem nations are being pressured to deracinate themselves. Well- the only one the West would even consider letting in their little sphere of prosperity that rests almost entirely now on military force and bullyism is being made to make themselves into the image of the West- essentially godless with religion as a stage prop. They are being asked to "multi culturize" like the poor exploited Christian nations you think are being targeted because they are Greek Orthodox or whatnot. Still - Turkey at least being considered while pressured to dump their culture is better than being any other Moslem country which is subject to all manner of ill treatment at the hands of the west- up to and including decimation if not genocide. I imagine many Iraqis would give their right arms to be Christians in Bosnia or Syria right now or a Serb living in a comparitively peaceful Kosovo refugee camp outside Belgrade.
Maybe it does. So why should Turkey get to join this club as is? Again, I know this sounds like it but it I am not making a pro EU position - EU's club - EU's rule. I am sure forcing the Mormons of Utah to drop polygamy, a central tenet of their faith sucked for the Morman faithful as well but that was one of the rules the USA had set for membership into its Union. I don't think that is the best comparison but it fits best. I can't be upset that Turkey is told that for her to join the EU she has to accept what you feel are horrible EU values.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
You are not following me. The EU and The United States represent a bloc of explotative nations - with the EU pretty much allowing the US to be the muscle while lamely and weakly pretending to protest its military imperial adventures. Now you are either a member of this club or you are not and are a peon nation (with a few middling exceptions like Russia and China) that is taken advantage of by this gang of nations. It's "Rules" are the only ones in town. It is the only club. You know- Europe at one time used to live by the principles that what your culture was in your country- was your business and it didn't preclude good relations and free and fair trade. That isn't the case today with Europe and the US which dictate internal policies of countries in order to not be treated like a shitbird country. Indeed- they demand that all countries make themselves in their image or else face at best- indifferent exploitation under the guise of "Free trade" (which is Orwellian named as it is anything but) or varying degrees of hostility from economic warfare to clandestine meddaling for "Regime change" to outright military attack and occupation. Now- you can pretend their is "choice" in there, but accepting my characterization of the EU - there isn't.
Very interesting and eye-opening post.
It is sad to say that Turkey is so shit addled a country that joining a shitty group like the EU is probably an improvement for those barbarians while for a country like Ukraine it would destroy their national ethnic character.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Oh- I forgot- you are Turk hater and Greek uber nationalist. How sad. Everyone has their little "ism" when you come down to it- with their moron simplifications. Most people need them to give themselves some sort of direction in life rather than themselves. Herd instinct.
I would not put it that way. But I don't see why I should respect Turkey when it is a country that lives along the lines what you claim the reichwingers crave minus the religious zeal. Worship of the military, laws against violating national honor, etc. Turkey is a primo example of a statist state. So I may be a Turk hater or not but if you claim to stand for what you stand how can you be anything but a Turk hater? And note being a Turk hater does not mean I want the USA to invade Turkey. Not fund those barbarians with my tax money? Hell yes - invade? No. I was no fan of Saddam either but do you see me cheering his downfall?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Because I don't hate Turks because of their government. Let's leave it alone- you are pretty irrational and stupid when it comes to this topic. Turks suck- I know- blah blah. Russia rules. Ukraine is awesome. whatever.
Turks have been this way before their govt. Were the Huns bad or did Atilla's rule make them bad? Do you know how many Kurds the Turks have killed? Three times as many as they claim Saddam killed. So you tell me how am I to view Turkey? Not get involved? All for it - cut off all US funding for Turkey (and every country on the planet) and don't sell them arms. By the way - "Ukraine is awesome" Since when have I ever said that? Russia does not rule - I hope it does one day.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Like I said- great simplifications. I am not interested in what I am sure is your copious number of idiotic links that prove how evil the Turks are. Hating turks is your gig- reveling in your own greek (and slavic) fart stink- is your bag. I get it. I know lots of people like you- love to roll around in their "Irish idenity" and get all up into that bullshit. Same crap as any "ism"- same lies- same idiotic group herd think. Just another form of collectivism in my book- and an old way for elites to rally dopes to die for their narrow interests. You "hope" Russia "rules?" Why? Oh- that's right- they are so awesome and all. Yawn.
On a personal level, when I visited Istanbul, I thought it was a slice of Heaven - so much history and the Turks rocked, far more open and friendly to Westerners than EU Greece and its heralded islands ( tourist traps many of them that offset their physical beauty). However, this was just an aside - I think I jumbled the ship that sank off the Greek islands with this thread about - oops, I forget - it's Friday night! hey and we're still alive despite the red terror high alert - pass the wine, we may not live to see tomorrow according to Comrade Jerkoff...
I really have no personal experience with Turks or Greeks for that matter. I am sure there are great things about each country and things that suck about them. I am not trying to say I am some PC guy who goes around smelling out "Racists". But I don't- by any means believe my shit don't stink and that any group of people are collectively evil or the culture totally worthless. I may not like certain cultures. I may even think them damn weird. But I am not going to "hate" them. And I especially am not going to hate anyone based on some petty wars or policies of past governments that cabals of statists carried out. I don't hate English people for the past acts of cabals of statists against Ireland. I further don't hate them because I don't even live there- I live 3000 miles away from that country and have even less of real reason to "hate" an Englishman. I find it beyond moronic to bump into these uber Irish nationalists whose families have been in this country for 4 generations- going off about the evil Enlgish and whining about shit 150 years old. And the only thing "Irish" about these clowns is usually a cladaugh ring and they get stupid drunk on St Patty's day wearing a green turtle neck. Its embarassing. It gets even more embarassing when they bump into an Irishman from Ireland and they assume that they have the same hangups about Enlgand-- Usually they get stares like "What the fuck are you talking about?"
Ditto - I could not have said it better.
You mistake my aversion for culture with a hatred of people on a racial or ethnic level. Turkey's culture emerged from the Asiatic steppes - it is a culture which wwill have the man welcome you to his tent and treat you like family but when he sees you a few weeks later while he and his clansmen are raiding will cut your head off and make a drinking cup of it.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I hope you didn't get to close to the apes when studying them in their tents. Remember what happened to Dian Fossey.
Greeks say the same thing about Turkish tourist hospitality so I can't say you are wrong. I think Greeks being much more wealthy these days don't really run to get that extra tourist euro like a Turk has to. Also some Greeks hate Americans and Western Europeans in such a way that they just can't stand the sight of them. I think the Greeks have developed a culture dating back to antiquity where if you conquer them but leave them alone they won't hate you but get involved in their business - even if for their own good and they will unite in hatred against you. Persians ruled the Ionian Greeks until they started to get involved in local affairs and the Greeks revolted. Romans were butchered by the same Ionian Greeks in the uprising by Mithridates - but mainland Greeks saw few uprising against Rome because Rome allowed them a wide degree of local autonomy. The Turks also left the Greeks alone for a few centuries until the Ottomans started to get corrupt (more so than usual) and demand more taxes from their Greeks and the Greeks went to war for independence. Italy asked for military access through Greece in WW2 and Greece went to war with them. The West - especially America - rides over the Balkans regions these days including backing dictatorship on the Greeks to get them to behave and that makes the Greeks go ballistic against the Americans.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I had to look up who Dian Fossey was so I don't get the allusion.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Well, obviously if their families had had any real problem with the English, they'd have already fled here and not be still living over there. He was probably a descendent of traitorous cowardly quisling English-boot-licking scum. ;^)
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Anyone who talks about turks drinking blood from skulls wouldn't.
Quite.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Whole-page picture from the biggest American weekly LIFE Magazine. This "Picture of the Week" shows a beautiful blonde, 20 year old Natalie Nickerson from Phoenix, Arizona. She sits by her desk with pen in hand, dreamingly contemplating the skull of a killed Japanese that was sent to her by her American Navy lieutenant boyfriend. The text reads: "Arizona war worker writes her Navy boyfriend a thank-you note for the Jap skull he sent her. When he said goodby two years ago to Natalie Nickerson, 20 a war worker of Phoenix, Ariz., a big, handsome Navy lieutenant promised her a Jap. Last week Natalie received a human skull, autographed by her lieutenant and 13 friends, and inscribed: "This is a good Jap - a dead one picked up on the New Guinea beach." Natalie, surprised at the gift, named it Tojo. The armed forces disapprove strongly of this sort of thing." United States: "We boiled the flesh off enemy skulls" "Japanese skulls were much-envied trophies among U.S. Marines in the Pacific theater during World War II. The practice of collecting them apparently began after the bloody conflict on Guadalcanal, when the troops set up the skulls as ornaments or totems atop poles as a type of warning. The Marines boiled the skulls and then used lye to remove any residual flesh so they would be suitable as souvenirs. U.S. sailors cleaned their trophy skulls by putting them in nets and dragging them behind their vessels. Winfield Townley Scott wrote a wartime poem, 'The U.S. Sailor with the Japanese Skull" that detailed the entire technique of preserving the headskull as a souvenir. In 1943 Life magazine published the picture of a U.S. sailor's girlfriend contemplating a Japanese skull sent to her as a gift - with a note written on the top of the skull. Referring to this practice, Edward L. Jones, a U.S. war correspondent in the Pacific wrote in the February 1946 Atlantic Magazine, "We boiled the flesh off enemy skulls to make table ornaments for sweethearts, or carved their bones into letter-openers." On occasion, these "Japanese trophy skulls" have confused police when they have turned up during murder investigations. It has been reported that when the remains of Japanese soldiers were repatriated from the Mariana Islands in 1984, sixty percent were missing their skulls."
United States: "We boiled the flesh off enemy skulls" "Japanese skulls were much-envied trophies among U.S. Marines in the Pacific theater during World War II. Oh my Lord. That is grisly. I've never heard of this before. Sick, sick stuff. No branch of the human family is above animalistic barbarism, no matter how "civilized" we may seem on the surface. Point made. Point taken.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Greeks agree with you that Turks and Americans are barbarians. One and the same in their barbarities.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Sigh- ok- whatever.
Hmmm....Are the Greeks above such barbarities? I wonder... From this website: "When will the Greek State apologize to the Macedonian people for its 1912- 1913 genocide in Northern Greece?" "Ethnic cleansing" may be a modern term but its meaning is well understood by the Macedonian people living in northern Greece. Ever since Greece took possession of Macedonia, in the early 20th century, Macedonian people have experienced first hand ethnic cleansing. This series of articles will present evidence of atrocities perpetrated by the Greek State against the innocent Macedonian civilian populations prior to, during and after the Balkan wars.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Bodies of WWII Marines killed for rapes found in Okinawa NAHA, Japan, April 26 Kyodo Three sets of human remains discovered in an Okinawan cave have been identified as belonging to U.S. Marines apparently killed by residents and Japanese soldiers at the end of World War II in retaliation for the rape of local women, sources familiar with the case said Wednesday. The bones of the three servicemen, which were concealed in a cave in Nago for nearly 55 years, were returned to family members in the United States earlier this month, the sources said. Local residents said the killings occurred in August 1945, following the Battle of Okinawa and immediately before the end of the Pacific War. Several residents and Imperial Japanese Army soldiers reportedly killed the Americans in retaliation for a large number of rapes committed in the area by U.S. servicemen. The bodies were then dumped in the cave, known to locals as Kurombogama.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Macedonians are Greeks - these people are Bulgarians who live in the geographic region of Macedonia - these atrocities were created by Tito's communists as a way to justify the cross border wars the Greeks and Communist rebels were fighting at that time. The reason is that these tales only came out in the late 40s and early 50s while what was done to the Armenians was known to the world in real time. You guys ob here need to develop analytical skills. This will make the internet surfing more fruitful and will allow you to be educated on the information you read for the first time. In August 1903 a mass armed uprising, known in history as the Ilinden- Preobrajenie, broke out in Macedonia and Thrace. After three months of fierce battles the Turkish army crushed the uprising using much cruelty against the civilian population. What was done to the people there by the Turks was then shifted on to whoever was the enemy of the day by the Communist authorities. A little knowledge in the brains of Americans is a dangerous thing.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Here's one letter from a Greek describing what they did (found here): Mr. Sotir Panaionnou, in the village of Vitziano, parish lthicou Tricala de Thessalie. River Nesto, 12th July, 1913. Here at Vrondu (Brodi) I took five Bulgarians [Macedonians associated with the Exarchate Church] and a girl from Serres. We shut them up in a prison and kept them there. The girl was killed and the Bulgarians [Macedonians associated with the Exarchate Church]also suffered. We picked out their eyes while they were still alive. Yours affectionately: COSTI.
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Like they needed a reason.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Proved long ago to be hoaxes. War propaganda originating from the Bulgarians or do you also think that the German 'Huns' bayoneted Belgian babies for fun in WW1? Americans attempting to understand history would be amusing if it was not dangerous.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Is it your contention that through the bloodletting in the Balkans, the Greeks never committed barbarities but always were above reproach. That sounds more propagandistic to me than this a personal letter by one soldier reporting back home the things he's seen and done. Your claim posits that the Greeks by virtue of being Greeks (or Orthodox) are somehow untouched by human frailty and weakness (highly implausable), while the letter only implies that some Greek soldiers were as afflicted as the rest of humanity (not surprising at all).
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Nope - but the ones you mentioned come from flasified reports.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
See the source? From the enemy of the Greeks who "found" the letters on captured Greeks and then released them to the world to prove the Greeks are bad and the Bulgarian cause justified - obvious forgeries. See the pictures of the Japanese skull and beheaded Armenians? Pictures not distributed by Japan against America but by Americans for Americans and the Armenian photos were taken by German allies of the Turks in WW1. See the difference in the origins of the evidence?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
A poser trying to sound like a Greek patriot who hates the United States and its people would be amusing if it were not for the fact that you're living in the United States and not the country you're supposedly so proud of. Not that I blame you. Greece is a backwater shithole whose greatness died out thousands of years ago but whose people are too stupid to realize. Don't fret though. With a lot of hard work, the people of your fabled country may one day be worthy enough to lick the sweat off of the balls of an American. For now though, they'll have to stick with having sex with their goats.
From H istoryofMacedonia.org: The Greek Atrocities in Aegean Macedonia 1. On June 21, 22, and 23, 1913, the Greek army completely burned to the ground the city of Kukush (today Kilkis), known for its resistance against Hellenism in the XIX century and the birthplace of Gotse Delchev. 2. Between June 29 and 25, 39 villages in the Kukush area were also burned down. 3. On June 23 and 24, the city of Serres (today Serrai) was set on fire where 4000 houses perished. In the Serres gymnasium the Greeks murdered about 200 people. 4. During these days the larger portion of Strumica was also destroyed by the Greek army. 5. Between June 23 and 30, many villages in the Drama and Serres districts were burned down. 6. From June 27 to July 6 all Macedonian quarts of Salonika were set on fire. The Carnegie Commission composed of members from USA, Germany, Russia, France, Austria, and England, witnessed the Greek atrocities when visited Aegean Macedonia. Their final conclusion was that the Greek army has burned to the ground 170 villages with over 17,000 houses. Since 1913, official Greece has been trying to banish native Macedonian names of villages, towns, cities, rivers, and lakes in Aegean Macedonia. For example, the little stream which issues from Mount Olympus and flows into the Aegean Sea is labeled Mavroneri ("black water") on the maps made by Greek cartographers after 1913. However, the same river appears as Crna Reka, a native Macedonian name meaning "black river" on the maps made before 1913. Kukush has been dropped for Kilkis and Serres for Serai, together with at least 300 other places all over Macedonia.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
The website is from the Greek's rivals not an unbiased source. That you don't know this is reason enough Americans should not be involved in the world. Stay home, Americans. Eat Big Mac's and get fat and be happy. You don't understand the world around you.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
I live in both in Europe and the USA. How do you like the way Iraqis are licking your balls?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
How do you like the way Iraqis are licking your balls? Why would you stoop to live in the US at all if you hate it so much? Maybe it's because you can't make any money in the shithole you call home? Or maybe you like to go to your villa and pretend that you have something in common with the common Greek citizen beside hating America. Whatever the reason, it must suck living in a country that you hate so much but not having either the integrity or guts to disassociate yourself from that country. As for the Iraqi's, I'm not a supporter of the war and I never have been.
Greece quit being worthy of learning anything about several millenia ago. Nowadays it's just one more country in the world. There is no reason to know anything about it.
LOL, you won a 50 cent off hamburger coupon.
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
The gift that keeps on giving. When will you Americans stop ripping the Greeks off? What is America's contribution to the world today? The murder capital of the Western world? The land that invades other countries for profit? When America's murder level per capita matches that of any European country let me know.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Mercury Cyclone Anything else bothering you boyo?
"People like truth, it gives us a fucking benchmark." - dakmar
And yet as bad as it is, you refuse to leave. Why is that? Is it because as bad as it is you cannot find anyplace better?
Goody. Hopefully it's a Big Mac. That way I can live up to Destro's expectations.
#2. To: ... (#0)
I was watching Scarborough Country on MSNBC the other day.
#3. To: lodwick, ... (#2)
#4. To: ... (#1)
#5. To: ... (#0)
The social conservatives don't care because every two years they are again told about the evils of gay marriage and abortion, and how democrats have Christianity and love killing babies. The fiscal conservatives running for office make the social conservatives feel like perseucted victims. And because of that, the social conservatives return to the ballot box again and again, to proudly reelect their republican masters.
#6. To: ... (#0)
#7. To: Burkeman1 (#6)
#8. To: Dakmar (#3)
Does grammar count?
#9. To: ... (#7)
#10. To: lodwick (#8)
#11. To: ... (#7)
#12. To: Dakmar (#9)
Liberals? Ain't they fat people that drink beers?
#13. To: ... (#12)
#14. To: Dakmar (#3)
It seems important that someone should watch this dreck and report back to us.
#15. To: ..., BeAChooser (#14)
If yur so smart, how are corrugated boxes made?
#16. To: Dakmar (#13)
who first used the phrase "bicketty bam"
#17. To: ... (#14)
#18. To: ... (#16)
It is the sound of one clap clapping.
#19. To: ... (#0)
Except for a few fundamentalist Catholics, few Catholics and few mainline protestants claim to be persecuted.
#20. To: Burkeman1 (#11)
If a neocon jumped off a cliff, how many genrations of innocent workers would be paying for the candleabras at his wake?
#21. To: ..., Burkeman1, Lodwick (#0)
Why is it they have these persecution fantasies?
#22. To: Tauzero (#19)
They got with the program a long time ago, sucked into the PC multicult. Little more than social clubs, really.
#23. To: Tauzero, robin (#19)
polka?
#24. To: ... (#22)
I often put seeds in my mouth and rest in a lotus position until they sprout and grow out my left nostril.
#25. To: Destro (#4)
Maybe extremists need scapegoats? Someone to focus your hate on.
#26. To: Horse (#21)
#27. To: ... (#0)
This again goes to an interesting point in these right-wing claims, regardless of if they are about gay-rights, religion, or whatever: that these people who claim to be persecuted are actually part of a majority group.
#28. To: Burkeman1 (#26)
There is no "Conspiracy" against Christians in this country.
#29. To: Tauzero (#27)
Did MLK suspect marches might result in violence against marchers?
#30. To: ... (#0)
#31. To: Dakmar (#23)
#32. To: Tauzero (#31)
#33. To: Destro (#29)
#34. To: Tauzero (#33)
And Darth wanted Luke to strike at him in anger.
#35. To: Destro (#28)
#36. To: Burkeman1 (#35)
#37. To: Dakmar (#36)
#38. To: Burkeman1 (#35)
(Edited)
I doubt anyone in Washington has given a fig of thought to the fate of Christian minorities in Iraq or anywhere else they might invade and conquoer. They don't care. Quite simply- no one is persecuting Christians for the sake of them being Christians.
#39. To: Dakmar (#36)
#40. To: Dakmar (#36)
The "christian" countries are the only ones being pressured to multi-culturalise, how do you explain that, kung-fu?
#41. To: Esso (#40)
#42. To: Destro (#38)
#43. To: Destro (#38)
It always amused me that Freepernuts would pile on the hate for France's Chirac when his party is a right of center party.
#44. To: Destro (#38)
#45. To: Burkeman1 (#44)
And by the way- the most "European" of Moslem countries is being pressured to "multi culturize" as a pre-condition of getting into the European Union.
#46. To: Destro (#45)
#47. To: Burkeman1 (#46)
Please. They don't care about people not being allowed to worship freely in Turkey. They want Islam deracinated like Christianity is in Europe. They want Ramadam to be the same sort of contentless consumer mega holiday and orgy of spending that Christmas has become.
#48. To: Burkeman1 (#26)
This isn't Russia. There are no cadres of murderous communists running around burning icons and using churches as Red Army Stables. There is no "Conspiracy" against Christians in this country.
#49. To: Destro (#47)
#50. To: Burkeman1 (#49)
Membership in this club derives benefits that are NOT available elsewhere.
#51. To: Destro (#50)
#52. To: Destro (#29)
In India the massacre evoked feelings of deep anguish and anger. It catalysed the freedom movement in the Punjab against British rule and paved the way for Mohandas Gandhi's Non-Cooperation Movement against the British in 1920.
#53. To: Burkeman1 (#51)
#54. To: Diana (#52)
Dyer said he would have used his machine guns if he could have got them into the enclosure, but these were mounted on armoured cars. He said he did not stop firing when the crowd began to disperse because he thought it was his duty to keep firing until the crowd dispersed, and that a little firing would do no good.
#55. To: Destro (#53)
#56. To: Burkeman1 (#55)
(Edited)
Oh- I forgot- you are Turk hater and Greek uber nationalist.
#57. To: Destro (#56)
#58. To: Burkeman1 (#57)
Because I don't hate Turks because of their government
#59. To: Destro (#58)
#60. To: Burkeman1, Destro, robin (#57)
#61. To: scrapper2 (#60)
#62. To: Burkeman1 (#61)
But I don't- by any means believe my shit don't stink and that any group of people are collectively evil or the culture totally worthless. I may not like certain cultures. I may even think them damn weird. But I am not going to "hate" them. And I especially am not going to hate anyone based on some petty wars or policies of past governments that cabals of statists carried out.
#63. To: Burkeman1, scrapper2 (#61)
I am not trying to say I am some PC guy who goes around smelling out "Racists".
#64. To: Destro (#63)
#65. To: scrapper2, Burkeman1 (#60)
On a personal level, when I visited Istanbul, I thought it was a slice of Heaven - so much history and the Turks rocked, far more open and friendly to Westerners than EU Greece and its heralded islands ( tourist traps many of them that offset their physical beauty).
#66. To: Burkeman1 (#64)
#67. To: Burkeman1 (#61)
It gets even more embarassing when they bump into an Irishman from Ireland and they assume that they have the same hangups about England-- Usually they get stares like "What the fuck are you talking about?"
#68. To: Destro (#66)
I don't get the allusion.
#69. To: Arator (#67)
He was probably a descendent of traitorous cowardly quisling English-boot-licking scum.
#70. To: Burkeman1 (#68)
Anyone who talks about turks drinking blood from skulls wouldn't.
Armenian heads as trophies photographed by a German Officer in Turkey.
#71. To: Destro (#70)
#72. To: Burkeman1, Destro (#71)
(Edited)
"Arizona war worker writes her Navy boyfriend a thank-you note for the Jap skull he sent her. When he said goodby two years ago to Natalie Nickerson, 20 a war worker of Phoenix, Ariz., a big, handsome Navy lieutenant promised her a Jap. Last week Natalie received a human skull, autographed by her lieutenant and 13 friends, and inscribed: "This is a good Jap - a dead one picked up on the New Guinea beach." Natalie, surprised at the gift, named it Tojo. The armed forces disapprove strongly of this sort of thing."
#73. To: Burkeman1, Arator (#71)
(Edited)
United States: "We boiled the flesh off enemy skulls" "Japanese skulls were much-envied trophies among U.S. Marines in the Pacific theater during World War II.
#74. To: Destro (#73)
#75. To: Destro (#73)
#76. To: Burkeman1, Arator (#74)
Sigh- ok- whatever.
#77. To: Arator (#75)
(Edited)
#78. To: Destro (#77)
#79. To: Destro (#76)
Several residents and Imperial Japanese Army soldiers reportedly killed the Americans in retaliation
#80. To: Arator (#78)
(Edited)
Here's one letter from a Greek describing what they did (found here):
#81. To: Destro (#80)
(Edited)
#82. To: Arator (#81)
Is it your contention that through the bloodletting in the Balkans, the Greeks never committed barbarities but always were above reproach.
#83. To: Arator (#82)
(Edited)
That sounds more propagandistic to me than this a personal letter by one soldier reporting back home the things he's seen and done.
#84. To: Destro (#80)
Americans attempting to understand history would be amusing if it was not dangerous.
#85. To: Destro (#83)
#86. To: Arator (#85)
(Edited)
H http://istoryofMacedonia.org:
#87. To: Hayek Fan (#84)
Don't fret though. With a lot of hard work, the people of your fabled country may one day be worthy enough to lick the sweat off of the balls of an American.
#88. To: Destro (#87)
I live in both in Europe and the USA.
#89. To: Destro, Arator (#86)
(Edited)
That you don't know this is reason enough Americans should not be involved in the world.
#90. To: Hayek Fan (#89)
Greece quit being worthy of learning anything about several millenia ago. Nowadays it's just one more country in the world. There is no reason to know anything about it.
#91. To: Hayek Fan, Dakmar (#89)
Greece quit being worthy of learning anything about several millenia ago.
#92. To: Destro (#91)
What is America's contribution to the world today?
#93. To: Destro (#91)
When will you Americans stop ripping the Greeks off? What is America's contribution to the world today? The murder capital of the Western world? The land that invades other countries for profit? When America's murder level per capita matches that of any European country let me know.
#94. To: Dakmar (#90)
LOL, you won a 50 cent off hamburger coupon.
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