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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 Flight School Cover-Up (Review)
Source: scoop.co.nz
URL Source: http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0405/S00110.htm
Published: May 12, 2004
Author: Len Bracken
Post Date: 2007-04-07 20:47:38 by Destro
Keywords: None
Views: 530
Comments: 72

UQ Wire: 9/11 Flight School Cover-Up (Review)

Wednesday, 12 May 2004, 11:50 am

9/11 Flight School Cover-Up

A Review Of Daniel Hopsicker's " Welcome To Terrorland "

By Len Bracken

As the result of a two-year investigation, an intrepid journalist has disclosed evidence of a cover-up concerning the flight schools in Florida that trained three of the four terrorists who piloted the hijacked planes. Daniel Hopsicker saw Venice, Fla., as the biggest unexploded crime scene in the September 11, 2001 attacks and arrived there two months later. He fearlessly pursued leads down dark alleys peopled with intelligence types and drug-running gangsters and tenaciously tracked down highly revealing witnesses, such as Mohamed Atta’s girlfriend.

The case that emerges from his multitude of facts is alarming, although not airtight. First, Hopsicker discloses evidence that shatters the FBI’s timeline of Mohamed Atta’s movements. Second, Hopsicker demonstrates that Atta’s relationship with flight school executive Rudi Dekkers was not what he testified it was under oath. Third, Hopsicker provides testimony of FBI witness intimidation. Furthermore, by personally going the extra mile with bold interviews, aviation industry research, and following up on local reporting, Hopsicker simultaneously shows, in a fairly convincing way, that the CIA “was actually running the operation” that brought Arab pilot trainees into Florida and that the national media, he notes with sarcasm, have been willfully ignorant of these scandalous facts. Hopsicker surely needed his sense of humor to sustain his quest as he wandered through this dark maze of Florida flight schools and aviation companies.

While Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi trained at Huffman Aviation, which was owned by the notorious Rudi Dekkers, terrorist pilot Said Al-Jarrah was at Venice’s other flight school, Florida Flight Training Center, which was owned by Arne Kruithof. Eight members of the 9/11 terrorist cadre trained at these two flight schools, as did Zacharias Moussaoui. In what Hopsicker facetiously calls the Magic Dutch Boy Theory, two Netherlands citizens, months apart, purchased flight schools at the same airport and then Arab pilots began to arrive in Venice in unprecedented numbers. An eyewitness said both flight school owners knew one another prior to Venice, although Dekkers denied this, and both worked with a German named Pascal Schreier who recruited trainees for the flight school.

“Rudi Dekkers said Atta and his sidekick just showed up at his facility one day,” Hopsicker writes. “He had, instead, been actively marketing his flight school,” according to reports in local papers, “in Germany at the exact time Mohamed Atta and his terrorist cell left Hamburg and moved to Florida.”

Dekkers asserted that Atta left Venice around Christmas 2000, and the shifty Dutchman said in sworn congressional testimony that he never saw Atta again. But in his video, Mohamed Atta’s Venice Flying Circus, and now in his book, Welcome to TerrorLand: Mohamed Atta and the 9-11 Cover-Up in Florida, Hopsicker reveals that eyewitnesses who spoke with him and with local reporters said Atta lived in nearby North Port from January 2001 until early March. And Atta lived with Amanda Keller in the Sandpiper Apartments in March and April of 2001, four months after the FBI said he left Venice. Several witnesses saw Atta with Dekkers in Venice two weeks before the attacks and another said Atta bought a sandwich from her in Venice one week before 9/11.

In the FBI biography of Atta, no mention is made of Venice, Fla., but the FBI knows from its debriefing of Venice Yellow Cab driver Bob Simpson that Atta and Dekkers shared cab rides in August 2001. “They knew each other well, really well,” Simpson told Hopsicker. “They were going to a nightclub in Sarasota, talking and very sociable with each other.” According to Hopsicker, the FBI lied to protect Dekkers, and the Dutch flight school owner lied to Congress regarding his relationship with Atta. The 9/11 Commission has conspicuously ignored the issue of flight schools in Venice.

The facts Hopsicker compiles against the shady flight school owner stagger the imagination. While running another flight school in nearby Naples, Fla., Dekkers crashed airplanes, violated air space, chartered airplanes without a license, and was reported to the FAA for several other violations. He reportedly had tax problems and was the subject of an arrest warrant for smuggling computer chips. Naples aviation executive John Vellada said that DEA and U.S. Customs had investigated him, adding, “Everything he ever did, from A to Z, was illegal.” Although he was “thrown out of Naples as a con artist,” according to a local aviation observer Rob Tillman, Dekkers was able to buy Huffman Aviation, which was Venice Airport’s fixed base operator or FBO, a position which carries with it civic responsibilities.

In short order, as was reported in the Venice Gondolier, Dekkers was repeatedly threatened by the city of Venice with eviction for not paying rent. The money he was making from training Atta and other terrorists apparently went into the improbable scheme of launching a statewide airline with slim prospects, a venture that won high praise from passengers Governor Jeb Bush and State Secretary Katherine Harris. Dekkers was, according to Hopsicker, a CIA asset and therefore somehow able to pay up his rent one month before the 9/11 attacks. While the rest of the industry suffered and were behind on payments, he never missed after that.

Hopsicker quotes local investigator Bill Warner as saying, “There are enough judgments in his name and his companies name to paper his office walls,” yet he was somehow able to pay off a series of lawsuits after the 9/11 attacks. According to Florida State’s Attorney Jonathan Greene, Dekkers was wanted in the Netherlands where he reportedly owed the government $3 million. He was also the target of a multiagency federal investigation in the mid-90s, yet not even an eyebrow of suspicion was raised when he spoke on CNN or Larry King Live, or when he testified to Congress on how to prevent more attacks. Moreover, Dekkers repeatedly changed his story to the press regarding his relationship with Atta and Al-Shehhi, although none of these accounts match those of Hopsicker’s eyewitnesses.

Hopsicker’s sobering accounts of the FBI intimidating witnesses, such as the bar manager who first said Atta drank Stolichnaya like a Russian and then retracted his story and amended it to cranberry juice, are too numerous to recount here. The case of his star witness, Amanda Keller, deserves brief mention that will not do justice to the amazing testimony in the book. She is the one Hopsicker tracked down after numerous calls to the police and child protective services workers, and she draws an intimate portrait of Mohamed Atta in Welcome to TerrorLand as a coke-snorting foot fetishist. Keller, like other Sandpiper Apartment residents, was bullied by the FBI into not talking about what she knows.

A reporter from the Sarasota Herald-Tribune’s Venice bureau, Earle Kimel, helped break the story about Atta’s American girlfriend. But the paper, which is owned by the New York Times, pulled Kimel off the case and ran a story in which Keller allowed herself to appear to have been mistaken “because of the intimidation by the FBI.” So now it was another Mohamed she had been living with for two months. When a New York Times reporter attempted to interview Keller, she put him on the line with the FBI. “I don’t know what was said,” Keller told Hopsicker, “but after that he left me alone.” The constant FBI surveillance and phone calls continued when she moved away from Venice, to the point where she was ordered by a G-man not to burn leaves because it could be evidence.

Hopsicker’s previous book-length work, Barry and the Boys, which is about Barry Seal and clandestine flights to and from Mena, Ark., gave him experience examining the aviation industry public record, and it shows. The journalist traces the ownership of flight schools, airlines and planes from Washington State, to Las Vegas, to an extremely wealthy man named Wally Hilliard. Hopsicker is being sued for Barry and the Boys so it’s no surprise that when commenting on TerrorLand and the stories on Hopsicker’s Mad Cow Morning News website, Hilliard brought up the question of libel. He told his hometown paper in Wisconsin, the Green Bay Press-Gazette, he had spoken with friends in the FBI and they said a suit was not worth the trouble because laws protect the writer.

The paper quotes him as saying he lives as morally as he can, “trying not to do anything immoral, illegal or fattening,” whereas Hopsicker sees him as the person who funded the operation that brought many bin Laden operatives to a flight school only nominally owned by Dekkers. Hilliard told his hometown paper he received thirty cents for every dollar he invested in Huffman Aviation; Hopsicker contends that part of the point about Hilliard is that so many of his operations made no business sense. To mention another example, after losing possession of a Lear Jet due to a 43-pound heroin bust, Hilliard was loaned a Beechcraft King Air 200 for a dollar by Truman Arnold, but the transaction wasn’t recorded until a year later, in January 2002.

The best link that Hopsicker can make to the CIA came via a tip from a local reporter at the Lynchburg News & Advance. Business reporter Chris Flores alerted the author to a dispute in the Virginia town regarding Britannia Aviation. Hilliard had invested heavily in Huffman Aviation and it was there that Britannia worked under Huffman’s FAA license. In another deal that did not make business sense, Lynchburg gave a contract to Britannia even though it did not have the proper FAA license and was undercapitalized. At a town hall meeting, the Britannia representative let on that the company had done aviation maintenance for Caribe Air while at Venice Airport, not realizing that it would quickly be recognized as a CIA proprietary airline by local reporters.

In his December 29, 2003 interview on PowerHour, Hopsicker is quite explicit: “I discovered that we were dealing with flight school owners who are CIA assets. … Mohamed Atta was in this country as a result of a program being run through the Central Intelligence Agency.” He is so confident of his evidence that he wants his day in court. “Sue me,” Hopsicker said on radio, “if this is incorrect information.” On the same broadcast, the journalist told listeners what he thought were the broad strategic considerations: “Somebody in the U.S. government was trading with Osama bin Laden and the deal, almost, very likely, was oil and heroin for guns and training. Either the CIA was secretly trading with Osama bin Laden or people who were able to manipulate the CIA were trading with Osama bin Laden. And his people, the representatives of his drug-trafficking Islamic organization, turned around and double-crossed us.”

Hopsicker doesn’t speculate much about this double cross possibility in his book, although he does go into Atta’s early work for a US government program in Hamburg. On a trip back to Egypt during this period, Atta made unconvincing indications that he had gone through an Islamic conversion. Hopsicker’s unnamed source places Atta at Maxwell Air Force Base’s International Officer’s Training School, and the author covers the significant leaks made by individuals in the military regarding these connections. The Air Force’s partial denial that covered all of the purported hijackers explicitly did not rule out Atta’s attendance at Maxwell. If, after so much effort went into training the hijackers, the CIA or DIA or the Secret Team as Fletcher Prouty identifies it, was double crossed, then this is the main point – once again the people who are so intent on spying, for example, intent on having assets as pilots on Arabic airlines, do more harm than good.

Such a colossal failure by the intelligence community is never mentioned in the mainstream press or in the hearings of the 9/11 Commission. The reason is simple. Instead of being a positive asset - which is already more than the intelligence community wants to admit - Atta and his ilk were more likely negative assets, which is to say they were al-Qaeda infiltrators who actually or only purportedly wanted to directly attack the United States. To his credit as an investigative journalist, Hopsicker steers clear of speculating on this, although someone must ask, in light of these assertions, a key question: Was Atta led to believe that he could get away with his conspiracy, that he could double-cross his case officers, or was he aware that the US government backed the operation and perhaps helped plan aspects of it?

In his May 3, 2004 dispatch on Hilliard, on his Mad Cow Morning News website, Hopsicker writes that Hilliard and Dekkers were implicated in a federal complaint accusing them of making “unauthorized and unsupervised flights,” without an operating certificate, during April and May of 1999. Hopsicker’s sources tell him that Hilliard and Dekkers were “ferrying Saudi princes” all over the United States. The government claims that the complaint is unrelated to 9/11, but this appears to be another unconvincing denial given that these covert flights were never investigated by any of the oversight committees looking into the attacks.

It will come as little surprise to readers of My Times: A Memoir of Dissent by veteran newspaperman John Hess that major dailies such as the New York Times play by national security rules. Hopsicker, who effectively used local papers in his research, writes it was just a strange coincidence that of the over 220 flight schools in Florida, the Times ran an article about only two particular ones for its two-year anniversary story on 9/11. One was Arne Kruithof’s Florida Flight Training Center and the other, Pelican Flight Training Center, is where Pascal Shchreirer’s wife works. These well-connected schools may still cater to the same Europeans - the Germans, Swiss and others - who were close to Atta, the drug-smuggling pilots or sinister people like them.

Although his self-produced book and video, which, inevitably, would benefit from more editorial and directorial oversight, don’t outline a perfect case so much as reshape his Internet essays with the colorings of hard-hitting journalism with what are at times self-mocking and distracting tones, the investigation by Daniel Hopsicker takes on increased significance given at least three considerations: 1) the FBI’s investigation of 9/11, according to a regional FBI office, was directed from the White House; 2) the investigation was impeded by the shift of resources to the subsequent anthrax attacks; and 3) the records from the Venice police station and from Huffman Aviation were deemed so sensitive that the president’s brother, Governor Jeb Bush, personally escorted them to Washington immediately after the attacks.

The 9/11 Commission must investigate Hopsicker’s accusations of covert CIA activity with the hijackers and the cover-up of the facts by the FBI using witness intimidation and other underhanded tactics. Each commissioner should at least watch Mohamed Atta and the Venice Flying Circus to sample the journalist’s bemused indignation at the spies from the famous clown school. Even for someone like Hopsicker, who has seen plenty of government corruption, the goings on in Florida were extraordinarily shameful because of their terrible consequences. If the 9/11 Commission fails to investigate the CIA and its use of flight schools in Venice for training Arabs as kamikazes, it will have been complicit in the cover-up.

**********

Len Bracken is the author of Shadow Government: 9-11 and State Terror (Adventures Unlimited Press, 2002).

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#1. To: Destro, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#0)

There isn't as much as a computer reservation code to put ANY of the purported 19 hijackers on the 9-11 flights.

So what, as to the rest of the story - it's an interesting diversion, at the very best.


SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-04-07   20:50:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Destro (#0)

But for the Israel part of the American-Israeli relationship, the World Trade Centers would still be standing.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   20:52:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: All (#0)

I find the report that the 9/11 hijackers described as being poor pilots uncredible. It is more likely that these pilots of those hijacked planes were well trained as pilots at expert military levels most likely by the CIA - some of the 19 lived on American military bases where they received advance pilot and military training. The CIA was funding as many as five global theaters of war using jihadis (more like tricking Muslims to join a jihad when in realuty it served America's interests). This Newsweek story was quickly squashed in favor of the bumbling pilots theory being pushed.

Newsweek Story: Alleged Hijackers May Have Trained at U.S. Military Bases

NEW YORK, Sept. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes that were used in Tuesday's terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s.

Three of the alleged hijackers listed their address on drivers licenses and car registrations as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla. -- known as the "Cradle of U.S. Navy Aviation," according to a high-ranking U.S. Navy source.

Another of the alleged hijackers may have been trained in strategy and tactics at the Air War College in Montgomery, Ala., said another high-ranking Pentagon official. The fifth man may have received language instruction at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, Tex. Both were former Saudi Air Force pilots who had come to the United States, according to the Pentagon source.

Military records show that the three used as their address 10 Radford Boulevard, a base roadway on which residences for foreign-military flight trainees are located. In March 1997, Saeed Alghamdi listed the address to register a 1998 Oldsmobile; five months later he used it again to register a second vehicle, a late model Buick. Drivers licenses thought to have been issued to the other two suspects in 1996 and 1998 list the barracks as their residences.

NEWSWEEK visited the base early Saturday morning, where military police confirmed that the address housed foreign military flight trainees but denied access past front barricades. A base public-information officer and the base's duty officer both said that information about the three students had been turned over to the FBI.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   20:55:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: SKYDRIFTER (#1)

There isn't as much as a computer reservation code to put ANY of the purported 19 hijackers on the 9-11 flights.

The remote control theory, eh? No thanks.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   20:57:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Destro (#3)

There isn't as much as a computer reservation code to put ANY of the purported 19 hijackers on the 9-11 flights.

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-04-07   20:57:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Destro (#0)

Off topic (sort of):

Hey, Destro:

What's your take on the USS Liberty: sad case of mistaken identity OR pre- meditated murder, er, attack--malice aforethought, ect...????

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   20:57:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Destro, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#4)

The remote control theory, eh? No thanks.

No remote control; just Mossad assets.

see -

http://home.comcast.net/~skyd rifter/exp.htm

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-04-07   20:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Destro, SKYDRIFTER (#4)

There isn't as much as a computer reservation code to put ANY of the purported 19 hijackers on the 9-11 flights.

None of thier names were on the passenger manifests. Isn't that correct, Sky?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   20:58:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: wbales (#2)

But for the Israel part of the American-Israeli relationship, the World Trade Centers would still be standing.

I liked Justin Raimondo's take on the Israeli connection - they got wind of the plot and followed it along hoping it would work out and then they can use that as a catalyst for the neocon agenda in the Middle East. In fact many national intel groups learned of it and told t he USA of it - Russian and Germany intel among them and the USA did nothing with the info. As if the USA left itself open for an attack on purpose. If that is what you are saying I am on board.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: SKYDRIFTER (#7) (Edited)

No remote control; just Mossad assets.

see

I saw nothing to indicate anything to back you up. Be specific. I go to the trouble of isolating exactly what I want to point out - you do that as well.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:02:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: wbales (#6) (Edited)

What's your take on the USS Liberty: sad case of mistaken identity OR pre- meditated murder, er, attack--malice aforethought, ect...????

Probably premeditated. I know for example that the Greeks would paint American naval spy vessels in the Aegean with radar as a warning they would fire on them if they did not move away anytime they and the Turks would do one of their naval duels out there (The Greeks thinking is that the USA fed the Turks military intel). The Greeks not being suicidal and not having as powerful a lobby in America as the Israelis restrained from firing.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:06:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Destro (#9)

As if the USA left itself open for an attack on purpose. If that is what you are saying I am on board.

Yes, then, we do agree. However, I include in your term "USA" PNAC and AIPAC, Israeli agents in positions of inordinate power and influence in and over the American federal government.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:07:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Destro (#11)

Probably premeditated.

Yes, it was.

Do you have a rational and logical explanation why Johnson recalled fighter protection being dispatched from the USS America to defend the USS Liberty while it was known the attack by Israel on the USS Liberty was on-going?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: wbales, SKYDRIFTER (#8) (Edited)

The theory that no hijackers were on the flight came about because of the lists posted by CNN a few days after 9/11 but those were not lists of the passengers, it was a list of the victims of the terrorist attack excluding the name of the hijackers.

You can find the full manifest online and the seating arrangements and where the hijackers sat.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: wbales (#12)

Yes, then, we do agree. However, I include in your term "USA" PNAC and AIPAC, Israeli agents in positions of inordinate power and influence in and over the American federal government.

Israel's involvement in 9/11 was best described by Justin Raimondo's book on the matter.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:17:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Destro (#14)

The theoru that no hijackers were on the flight came about because of the lists posted by CNN a few days after 9/11 but those were not lists of the passengers, it was a list of the victims of the terrorist attack excluding the name of the hijackers.

How did CNN know the names of the hijackers a few days after 09/11 so as to exclude them from thier published lists?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: SKYDRIFTER (#7)

Hopsicker has a lot on Able Danger, etc.

http://www.madcowprod.com/10252006.html

http://www.madcowprod.com/08172005.html

"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2007-04-07   21:21:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: wbales (#13)

Do you have a rational and logical explanation why Johnson recalled fighter protection being dispatched from the USS America to defend the USS Liberty while it was known the attack by Israel on the USS Liberty was on-going?

Yea, one theory is that the Israelis planned to sink the ship and then the USA would blame the Egyptians and help Israel by funneling arms to them.

I don't know how factual that theory is because there has been no evidence that this American aid was pre set in place to take advantage of this.

The theory I go by is that at that time in history the USA and Israel were not that buddy-buddy - the USA kicked Israel out of Sinai along with England and France during the Ike years. America was kind of playing all sides in the Middle East at that time and the Israelis attacked the Americans to shut their intel gathering operation down.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:22:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Destro (#15)

Israel's involvement in 9/11 was best described by Justin Raimondo's book on the matter.

You think that or know that.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:23:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: wbales, Christine, Brian S, Honway, Robin, Aristeides, Red Jones, Diana, Kamala, All (#8)

None of their names were on the passenger manifests. Isn't that correct, Sky?

None that I've seen or heard of.

No ticket purchase record; and no tickets issued in their name, electronically or hard-copy. Nor did they appear in the autopsies.

But the PRIVATE plane with the bin Ladens (among others) left before American private aircraft could operate. Funny, how that works!

SKYDRIFTER  posted on  2007-04-07   21:24:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Destro (#18)

The theory I go by is that at that time in history the USA and Israel were not that buddy-buddy - the USA kicked Israel out of Sinai along with England and France during the Ike years. America was kind of playing all sides in the Middle East at that time and the Israelis attacked the Americans to shut their intel gathering operation down.

Your answer does not address why Johnson recalled the USN fighter intercept to protect the USS Liberty in an on-goning attack by Israel.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: wbales (#16)

How did CNN know the names of the hijackers a few days after 09/11 so as to exclude them from thier published lists?

If I am telling you the hijackers were trained by the CIA on American military bases for terror attacks then does it not stand to reason their identities were well known? Hello, McFly!

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:25:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: SKYDRIFTER (#20)

But the PRIVATE plane with the bin Ladens (among others) left before American private aircraft could operate. Funny, how that works!

One of the very FEW planes allowed to fly on the afternoon of 09/11. HHHMM.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Destro (#22)

If I am telling you the hijackers were trained by the CIA on American military bases for terror attacks then does it not stand to reason their identities were well known?

OK. The American government knew 09/11 was going to happen and didn't stop it, right?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: wbales (#19)

You think that or know that.

You know everything for certain? Scary.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:30:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: wbales (#24) (Edited)

OK. The American government knew 09/11 was going to happen and didn't stop it, right?

Yup. Or to be more accurate - the so called shadow govt did. That is the only thing that can expain how intel pre warnings were ignored.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:31:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Destro (#26)

Or to be more accurate - the so called shadow govt did. That is the only thing that can expain how intel pre warnings were ignored.

The Shadow government. Zionists and the american Big Business Elite.

Google:

"PNAC new pearl harbor"

Read about PNAC and who they are.

PNAC/AIPAC (Israel) pushed America and Americans into the middle east war for the interests of Israel. The qiud pro quo to the American Big Business Elite was control of Iraqi Oil.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:38:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: wbales (#21)

Your answer does not address why Johnson recalled the USN fighter intercept to protect the USS Liberty in an on-goning attack by Israel.

Your question shows no factual basis that I can identify.

Johnson knew dick about war - which is why he let others run the Vietnam war for him.

http://www.lewrockwell.co m/orig/margolis12.html

US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.

These men seem outraged at the attack - thus your implication Johnson was setting them up for attack fails to explain the reactions by the men who probably had more control over the situation than Johnson. So if you are saying that Johnson was setting up the Liberty for attack I can't agree.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:39:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Destro (#25)

You think that or know that.

You know everything for certain? Scary.

No, I form my opinions based on the facts available to me in the totality of the circumstances.

Do think OR know Justin Raimondo has the FACT of Israeli extent/involvement in 09/11?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Destro (#28)

These men seem outraged at the attack - thus your implication Johnson was setting them up for attack fails to explain the reactions by the men who probably had more control over the situation than Johnson. So if you are saying that Johnson was setting up the Liberty for attack I can't agree.

You have no good answer, but it is TOTALLY beyond the realm of possibility that Johnson recalled the fighters because Israel was going to rat him out on his involvement in JFK's murder, right?

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:43:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: wbales (#29)

No, I form my opinions based on the facts available to me in the totality of the circumstances.

So then why ask a stupid question like think vs know. No one not even Raimondo knows for certain - he clearly states he is speculating based on evidence available. Are you going to continue to bore with with semantics?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:45:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Destro (#31)

Are you going to continue to bore with with semantics?

No.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:46:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: wbales (#30) (Edited)

You have no good answer, but it is TOTALLY beyond the realm of possibility that Johnson recalled the fighters because Israel was going to rat him out on his involvement in JFK's murder, right?

Yea, because that is retarded. That is the kind of stuff toothless rednecks come up with over a crystal-meth smoking session. If Israel knew that then the KGB also knew it and they could have gotten Alaska from the deal.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Destro (#31)

No one not even Raimondo knows for certain

However, you know for certain that Israel had no involvement in JFK's murder, eh?

Or, were you speculating? Excuse me as it appeared you were stating fact.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Destro (#33)

Yea, because that is retarded. That is the kind of stuff toothless rednecks come up with over a crystal-meth smoking session.

Brilliant and articulate argument and response.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:50:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: wbales (#34) (Edited)

However, you know for certain that Israel had no involvement in JFK's murder, eh?

Based on the available evidence? Yea. I can exclude them more easily than you can include them on the hit. In fact Oswald has a greater probability of being the lone nut gunner than having an Israeli involvement in JFK's killing. May I ask at what point do you exclude anything? You sound like you accept EVERYTHING as long as it conforms to your views and if it does not you will make sure you twist it until it does.

You sound like the Bushbots that upset that no WMD were found in Iraq start splicing half truth up to make it seem the WMD went to Syria or Iran.

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Destro (#33)

Yes, retarded would be one word to describe an American President recalling fighter aid to an American Naval Ship under attack. I could think of many others.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:53:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Destro (#0)

As the result of a two-year investigation, an intrepid journalist has disclosed evidence of a cover-up concerning the flight schools in Florida that trained three of the four terrorists who piloted the hijacked planes.

Stop.

There were no Arabs on the passenger manifests.

There were no Arabs on the airport cams.

Just stop this crap.

Dr.Ron Paul for President

Lod  posted on  2007-04-07   21:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: wbales (#37)

Yes, retarded would be one word to describe an American President recalling fighter aid to an American Naval Ship under attack. I could think of many others.

Fighters from what aircraft carrier? Base in Crete?

"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom

Destro  posted on  2007-04-07   21:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Destro (#36)

...greater probability...

Now, let's get into semantics: greater probability implies a possibility.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-07   21:54:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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