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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: What Do Muslims Want?
Source: National Review
URL Source: http://article.nationalreview.com/? ... hlYzEwYzkwYzc3YTQ2OWQxMjJhMTE=
Published: Apr 9, 2007
Author: Raymond Ibrahim
Post Date: 2007-04-10 03:29:47 by mirage
Keywords: None
Views: 1055
Comments: 82

All humans generally live according to some set of priorities. A person may make a priority of health, of pleasure, of study, of almost anything, really. But it is practically a law of nature that a person must make a priority of something. Even those who lead unstructured existences unconsciously live according to some set of unarticulated priorities, if only according to something so basic as the primal need for food, drink, and shelter.

For many people, religious practice — striving to obey God’s commandments — is a high priority, the highest, even. Yet this priority can come into conflict with the character of the society in which one lives. This is undoubtedly the case for devout Muslims who voluntarily relocate to Western nations. This invariably will compromise what many of them profess to be their ultimate priority: living in accordance to the divine laws of Allah (i.e., sharia — most of which is derived from the words and deeds of seventh-century Mohammad).

Some of these Muslims arrive in the West and don’t want to compromise. Consider some recent news stories:

A few Muslim cashiers working at Target stores in Minneapolis are refusing to scan customer purchases that may contain pork. Instead of swiping the products themselves — which is their job — they are inconveniencing the customers or fellow employees by having them do it.

Muslim cab drivers have long been discriminating against customers carrying or suspected of carrying alcohol. Officials at the St. Paul International Airport estimate that, on average, alcohol-bearing customers seeking cab rides are denied 77 times per month. Some blind customers have also been turned down on account of their seeing-eye dogs.

Muslims in Seattle have requested (and been granted) regularly scheduled hours for their exclusive use of public pools; an all-Muslim-girls basketball team at a Chicago university demanded that men be barred from attending their matches; some 200 Muslim women signed a petition at a Michigan fitness center demanding separate workout times for men and women, or at least the erection of a screen divider between the men’s and women’s section (which was granted).

All of these issues revolve around the Muslim desire to live according to Allah’s laws — which, among other things, ban contact with pigs, dogs, and alcohol, and have rigid social guidelines, especially concerning interaction between the sexes. From a religious point of view, the anti-social behavior of these Muslims can be, if not excused, then certainly understood. They are doing only what their religion commands them to do. And their refusal to compromise on these points demonstrates that adherence to the commandments of Islam is a priority of the utmost importance to them.

However, if living in strict accordance to sharia is the first priority of some Muslims, one wonders: Why have they voluntarily come and immersed themselves in infidel countries that do not recognize sharia law and, indeed, allow many things that run counter to it, such as the selling and consumption of alcohol and pork and the liberal intermingling of the sexes? Most of the Muslim countries that Muslims abandon for the West are much more conducive to the Muslim lifestyle and uphold many if not all aspects of sharia law. Yet, each year, thousands of supposedly “ultra-devout” Muslims forsake these countries and, of their own free will, come and surround themselves with wine-imbibing, swine-eating libertines. Why?

It is for the same reason that everyone else comes to the West — for the “good life.” They come in order to be prosperous and to enjoy opportunities, security, and equality the likes of which they could never have in their own countries (ruled quite often — no surprise — according to sharia). The vast majority of Muslims emigrating from the Islamic world do not leave due to necessity — say, oppression or starvation. No, they come to the infidel West solely to prosper materially.

But why are Muslims of the “ultra-pious” variety seeking after material comfort in the first place — especially when doing so will almost certainly undermine their professed desire to live strictly according to the sharia? Coming to live in a democratic country composed of some 300 million infidels is bound to affect any Muslim’s observance of sharia. These pious Muslims risk coming into daily contact with, not only pork, alcohol, and dogs, but all sorts of other defilements: flamboyant homosexuals, scantily clad women (who are often in positions of authority!), gamblers and usurers, to name a few. Are they not concerned that they, or especially their children, might become contaminated by the licentious and seductive practices of the infidel West? If their priority is truly to strictly follow sharia, should they not remain in their Muslim countries of origin, which, if not as prosperous as the West, are definitely more conducive to the Muslim lifestyle?

Or, could it be that, despite all the ruckus (and subsequent headlines) made by these Muslims, living in accordance to Allah and his sharia is not their first priority, after all? At least, not to the degree that they would be unwilling to put this priority at substantial risk for the sake of living the good life, in a strictly secular and materialistic sense.

Furthermore, if common sense does not dissuade them from relocating to the West, the very sharia they claim to want to closely observe should. For instance, if pork and alcohol are condemned (e.g., Koran 5:4; 2:219), voluntarily living among infidels, idolaters, and atheists is looked on no better. The Koran declares: “O you who believe! Take neither Jews nor Christians as friends…whoever among you turns to them is one of them” (5:51).

There are countless verses and traditions, in fact, that make it clear that Muslims are to be in a constant state of animosity toward non-Muslims, waging war through tongue and teeth in order to spread Islam, and, when finally in a position of superiority, discriminating against those who refuse to convert (see, for example, 3:28, 5:73, 5:17, 9:5, 9:25, etc). When the Meccans persisted in their unbelief, refusing to accept the prophet-hood — and subsequent authority — of Mohammad, he finally abandoned his kinsfolk with these parting words, which some Muslims believe still define the proper relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims: “We [Muslims] disown you [non-Muslims] and what you worship besides Allah. We renounce you. Enmity and hate shall forever reign between us — until you believe in Allah alone!” (60:40).

So why are some Muslims making public scenes here in the United States over scanning bacon or transporting customers with sealed bottles of wine in their luggage while at the same time freely choosing to live with — and of course benefit from — those whom they are commanded to hate and wage war upon, or at the very least, disavow and be clean of?

“Straining out a gnat while swallowing a camel” has long been a sure sign of hypocrisy. All Muslims who freely migrate to the West must understand that they can’t have it both ways — that they can’t have their cake and eat it, too. They must choose between either strictly upholding the laws and customs of 7th-century Arabia (in which case they should remain in their “sharia friendly” countries of origin) or, if prosperity and comfort is their first choice, let them relocate to the West, but prepare to assimilate — that is, compromise — to some degree. It’s a simple question of priorities.


Poster Comment:

An interesting take on "multiculturalism" and the clash of societies.

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#42. To: mirage (#41)

The difference is between the person who follows his path without dragging people along with him -- and those who wish to drag everyone with him.

Prohibition is a fine example of Baptists dragging everyone else along for the ride. Is that "just fine" or is it not?

It wasn't just the Baptists. It was a lot of other denominations, too, as well as a lot of "liberal" better-society types and temperance leagues and all that stuff, too. I'm against prohibition of alchohol for some of the same reasons I'm against the prohibition of nearly all recreational drugs. Because prohibition has in the past proven a deadly failure; and in the present it is proving itself a deadly failure. Also, Christ himself drank, and so did all of the apostles (presumably responsibly, although who knows, they didn't have cars ...) so it seems kind of weird for any Christian to be pushing for the prohibition of alcohol.

But the prohibitions rammed down our throats by the Baptists were passed through democratically and politically; so I don't see them in the same light as someone imposing the Khoran or Sharia or Talmud or Paul's laws on us; not to say there wasn't a relationship there, for there certainly was; but freedom is a tricky business. It's hard to consistently favor freedom when that means you have to let other people be "free" to advocate for lessening the very freedom that permits them to speak. Or to freely practice their wacky religion.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   14:15:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: bluedogtxn (#42)

It's hard to consistently favor freedom when that means you have to let other people be "free" to advocate for lessening the very freedom that permits them to speak. Or to freely practice their wacky religion.

Traditionally, "Tolerance" meant not killing the guy living next to you because he was different - you let him do whatever he wanted (except capital crimes, of course) behind closed doors.

Granted, it is usually a small minority who gets in other peoples' faces, but should not the same general societal rules be for everyone?

Thus, I'm amazed at the people on this thread who are saying "All Jews are evil and all Muslims are good" - this is stupid. There are idiots in every group and extremists in every group. There are both good and bad to be found everywhere.

So what's with the lobotomy? Why is the brain shutting down and not realizing that simple fact of reality?

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-10   14:21:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: mirage (#43)

Traditionally, "Tolerance" meant not killing the guy living next to you because he was different - you let him do whatever he wanted (except capital crimes, of course) behind closed doors.

There are both good and bad to be found everywhere.

So what's with the lobotomy? Why is the brain shutting down and not realizing that simple fact of reality?

We're being bombarded by strange ideas, and many of them are contradictory. We are told that a left wing conspiracy is ramming fascism down our throats in the name of "tolerance" and "diversity"; and tolerance and diversity become dirty words associated with the all-time dirty word, "liberal". Or there's the dreaded "multiculturalism" being foisted on us poor, unsuspecting victims...

I call bullshit. If you look up tolerance and read the definition, it really doesn't have much of a downside. If you look up diversity, liberal and multiculturalism, there's not much there that a true blue American raised in the spirit of liberty and the melting pot could disagree with much.

You are right about the lobotomy, though. And it's frightening. A large group of people have been lobotomized into thinking that torture is okay, pre-emptive war is just fine, and all Muslims should be atomized. People are okay with cops kicking in doors, tasering people to death, prison without trials, etc, etc...

I think if the founding fathers had possessed a crystal ball and could have seen what the American people would become, they'd have blown off the whole "revolution" thing. Why bother to put themselves through the agony of it if we were ultimately to become a nation no freer than Britain under George III? If they'd known we'd be installing an elected dynasty to the throne of America, and that the people would be willingly putting the noose of Empire and militarism around their own necks, I think they'd have despaired of the whole undertaking.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   14:42:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: bluedogtxn, Zipporah, christine, rowdee, robin, lodwick, Diana, Minerva, Jethro Tull, Tauzero (#30) (Edited)

most people don't understand that nig....I mean, African Americans

I gotta wonder what is wrong with you. Did your parents drop you on your head? Were you raised in some throwback hillbilly white trash Atlanta Ghetto?

What on earth makes you think that posting "nig... I mean African Americans" is going to gain you anything but scorn from anyone anywhere?

This is just flamebait from a keyboard bigot who wouldn't have the courage to say something so deeply offensive in front of his target audience. I'm embarrassed for you.

Your shrieks of simulated outrage are duly noted, counselor.

"What on earth makes you think that posting "nig... I mean African Americans" is going to gain you anything but scorn from anyone anywhere?"__bluedogtxn

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-10   15:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: HOUNDDAWG (#45)

Your shrieks of simulated outrage are duly noted, counselor.

So is your ridiculous race-baiting bullshit, Klansman.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   15:04:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: bluedogtxn (#44)

There is an open conspriacy to shove things down our throats. Fortunately, in America, things tend to be done out in the open - and it is now a free-for-all :)

Traditional "diversity and multiculturalism" was to take the best from everywhere and assimilate it. The modern version is balkanization where communities are encouraged to NOT assimilate.

America used to think of herself as having a common language. We are now told by many people that is a bad idea.

America used to think of herself as being "one people" - Americans - but from everywhere. Now we have "Irish-Americans" and "African-Americans" and "Jewish-Americans" and "Mexican-Americans" -- there are no plain old "Americans" anymore.

America used to be a meritocracy. Nowadays you win the jackpot if you are born with a particular heritage and hue. You get bonus points if you're also female and gay.

America used to promote self-sufficiency and self-reliance. These days, "progressives" tell us that is no longer needed and that society as a whole needs to take care of everyone as opposed to what we used to do, which was to encourage people to take care of themselves. The extreme right wing wants to disassemble ALL of the safety nets due to how they have evolved and been misused.

Historically, everyone has always known there are homosexuals. Historically, they kept it to themselves. Nowadays, it is considered 'chic' to throw it in peoples' faces. OF COURSE there is backlash when that happens, its just common sense to expect that when throwing something in someone's face.

So now we get EVERYONE throwing EVERYTHING in EVERYONE's faces and EVERYONE is pissed off as a result. I don't understand how we got from being a polite society to "celebrate ME and you're damned to hell if you don't think like I do!" (which is what 'celebrate diversity' really means in its modern usage)

I've been trying to figure out what the actual "line" was where common sense and individuality was and where collectivism and the tyranny of the minority started taking over and the best I can come up with is it was a slow boil for the frog.

Maybe I'll never understand, but I'll never give up trying to understand it.

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-10   15:05:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: mirage (#47)

America used to think of herself as having a common language. We are now told by many people that is a bad idea.

America used to think of herself as being "one people" - Americans - but from everywhere. Now we have "Irish-Americans" and "African-Americans" and "Jewish-Americans" and "Mexican-Americans" -- there are no plain old "Americans" anymore.

America used to be a meritocracy. Nowadays you win the jackpot if you are born with a particular heritage and hue. You get bonus points if you're also female and gay.

America used to promote self-sufficiency and self-reliance. These days, "progressives" tell us that is no longer needed and that society as a whole needs to take care of everyone as opposed to what we used to do, which was to encourage people to take care of themselves. The extreme right wing wants to disassemble ALL of the safety nets due to how they have evolved and been misused.

Heh.

When was that? We've had German language schools and Greek schools and Italian language schools and even German, French, Cajun and Spanish speaking towns continuously since the birth of the nation.

We've always thought of ourselves as "one people", but we've always also said, "except for them dirty Krauts or them unwashed Micks or them nasty Niggers or them awful greasers or those filthy Cajuns or them damn Yankees or them damn rednecks or them lousy kikes or godless Coolies..." There's never been a time in our history when we didn't have a class of second class citizens or "guest workers" or "illegals" or "resident aliens" within our borders. So don't gimme that "one people" crap. We've got our castes, too.

"America used to be a meritocracy?" That's a joke, right? Because up until recently if you were born with a particular heritage and hue (a WASP), you won the jackpot. Now that heritage and hue have changed to a different set of heritages and hues; but we've always had our aristocracy, too. They've passed congressional and senate seats back and forth for more than two centuries.

"America used to promote self-sufficiency and self-reliance"... We still do. The difference is that we no longer seem to be able to tolerate the fact that a lot of people are congenitally neither self-sufficient nor self-reliant, and will starve or wind up homeless or die of disease or starvation. In the words of Christ, "the poor we will always have with us". A bunch of crazy "progressives" want to actually put these people in shelters or feed them or give them (gasp) free medical care; while good solid Americans want them freezing in the streets or dying in gutters or begging at the back doors of churches or dumpster diving like they used to. Back in the good ole days.

I'm not trying to diminish what you've posted, but you've posited an America that never existed. Are we simmering frogs? Probably, but I'd suggest to you that the causes are the growth of government, the growth of the military industrial complex and intelligence secret government and the imminent death of our constitution.

Trotting out liberalism and tolerance and diversity as bogeymen when the real threat is tyranny, militarism and fascism is at best a distraction, at worst it pits friends of liberty against each other.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   15:27:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: bluedogtxn (#48)

What I describe is what we were becoming in the 1960s before the "Great Society" took hold. At that point, things veered off in the Collectivist direction. I'm not saying we should throw people into the snowbank, but down in California, there were welfare people living better than I did. The average "housing voucher" in San Jose' in 2000 was $2200 a month. I lived in a $900 dive apartment. Likewise, "public housing" officials in San Diego put up an oceanfront apartment complex claiming "Why should only the rich enjoy the good life?" You can do the math on the rest.

Like all movements, once the activists win, they can't leave it alone and the movement is hijacked by more radical elements and becomes a mockery of itself by pushing things too far.

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-10   15:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: mirage (#49)

Like all movements, once the activists win, they can't leave it alone and the movement is hijacked by more radical elements and becomes a mockery of itself by pushing things too far.

This is certainly true, but the "Great Society" stuff LBJ launched was about the only good thing he did. Has welfare gone too far? Probably, although Clinton brought back good old fashioned miserliness with his conservative welfare reforms. My point was that the social safety net or the lack thereof is a sliding scale kind of thing along which there will always be contentious disagreement.

What should concern us, I think, is less about how many folks are on welfare or how much they get and more about the destruction of our fragile constitutional democracy and its replacement with an increasingly inherited monarchy or empire.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   15:52:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: bluedogtxn (#50)

Of concern should simply be how much money is being spent on programs. Right now more than half of the Federal Budget is spent on entitlements, transfer payments, and other such social subsidy.

Just to correct, Clinton vetoed the Republican Congress' "welfare reform" three times before finally signing it and then claimed credit for it. Clinton did not want to touch the system as it was.

To go back, yes, there were German speaking schools in the past, but generally they were private schools. Nowadays we have that in the public schools, which is an error in terms of giving kids what they need to get ahead. Given that I have a lot of family who are schoolteachers, I could go on about education for years and not even scratch the surface.

IMO, the system will collapse in on itself as more and more money is diverted to useless activities and will therefore be a self-correcting problem albeit with a lot of pain in the interim. With peak oil, massive population growth, and crushing debt, I don't see too much additional expansion (read: not more than 50 years) before things correct of their own accord.

So, for me, I'm not worried. I'm more concerned about people who have based their plans on the system as opposed to themselves. A few good energy shocks and interest rate hikes will cause a heck of a lot of pain. Fortunately, silly arguments tend to vanish when bad times hit.

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-10   16:08:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: mirage (#51)

Just to correct, Clinton vetoed the Republican Congress' "welfare reform" three times before finally signing it and then claimed credit for it. Clinton did not want to touch the system as it was.

We could go round and round about who initiated welfare reform and who stole the credit for it. I think that Newt and his boys took credit for what was basically a Clinton reform, but either way, what resulted was a very much reformed system that is still in effect today. Many people were dropped from welfare rolls due to this reform.

As for the growth in "entitlements" you don't get anywhere near half the federal budget unless you throw social security into the mix, and that's something that we've all paid into as workers; with the expectation that we'd get some back. That ain't welfare and it ain't transfer payments; it's deferred compensation.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   16:15:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: bluedogtxn, Zipporah, christine, rowdee, robin, lodwick, Diana, Minerva, Jethro Tull, Tauzero (#46)

Your shrieks of simulated outrage are duly noted, counselor.

So is your ridiculous race-baiting bullshit, Klansman.

free speech on 4

Tell me, do you agree with christine's post or not?

Your reply will go a long way as a qualifier when you lecture us on the lost principles of Americanism.

And, for the sake of argument, what will you do when someday your skin color is your uniform, and all those soul bruthas you railroaded into prison don't think of you as fondly as you do them?

I hope you have some young, juicy daughters to give them to prove your bone fides. Otherwise, you'll be classified as just another hypocritical "liberal" who doesn't mind throwing welfare and food stamps (and public defenders) at them but don't want them to move in next door or marry your daughter(s).

(PS: This is your cue to piously proclaim that you wouldn't mind if your daughter marries a darkie. Please do that for me, will you? I ddouble ddawg ddare you! HAH!)

"What on earth makes you think that posting "nig... I mean African Americans" is going to gain you anything but scorn from anyone anywhere?"__bluedogtxn

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-10   16:16:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: mirage (#51)

IMO, the system will collapse in on itself as more and more money is diverted to useless activities

Toss about four fifths of the military budget in there, and you and I are on the same page, I think.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   16:16:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: HOUNDDAWG (#53)

Tell me, do you agree with christine's post or not?

"Again, free speech on this forum means that people can express their love or hatred for anyone, any group, any race, any culture, or any thing, as long as they adhere to the three contingencies listed above. Everyone else on this forum is similarly at liberty to exercise their free speech right to challenge, debate, argue, or agree with the ideas and speech of another."

Absolutely. But if you are foolish enough to think that you can drop N-bombs here and not encounter a "challenge, debate, argument" with your use of them, you are out of your mind.

you ask: "What will you do when someday your skin color is your uniform, and all those soul bruthas you railroaded into prison don't think of you as fondly as you do them?"

Are you nuts? Are you predicting the takeover of America by "soul-bruthas" and "darkies"? Because that's just more silly, reactionary racist crap. The "darkies" have about as much chance of taking over as the Chinese do, which is nil. If you want to fear someone because of their ethnicity, you'd do better to fear Hispanics, frankly.

You say that: "This is your cue to piously proclaim that you wouldn't mind if your daughter marries a darkie. Please do that for me, will you? I ddouble ddawg ddare you! HAH!" and that this is my cue to "prove my liberal credentials".

Okay, I'll take that dare. If my daughter marries a "darkie" and he's smart, ambitious, going somewhere, and treats her and my wife and the rest of my family with respect, I'll support the marriage 100%. If he's ignorant, going nowhere, close minded or an anti-Christian, then I'll oppose it. And I don't care how white, smart, ambitious or pious he is, if he drops a single N-bomb in my house or in front of me, I'll vehemently oppose the marriage.

Because that's a word that was vile in Mark Twain's day no less than it is vile today, and anyone who thinks it is appropriate usage is an idiot, be he black, white or whatever.

And I have two young, fine, beautiful and intelligent daughters, neither one of whom is "juicy". And anyone who'd call them juicy to my face would get a definite and unmistakeable response.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-10   16:47:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: bluedogtxn (#55) (Edited)

post deleted.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-10   17:13:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: bluedogtxn (#52)

Since Social Security funds were diverted by LBJ into the general fund and the Supremes have ruled that FICA is "just another tax" and that there are no rights to Social Security -- it has to be viewed as just another line-item in the Federal Budget.

Alas, that's the world we live in. Increasing spending on entitlements and silliness. Less spending on things that make a difference and catering to the lowest common denominator. Check your local school budget for details. Pay close attention to "special needs" and "special education" for a real shock.

Also, get the figures on 504 and IEP. It'll blow your mind.

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-10   18:56:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: mirage (#43)

So what's with the lobotomy? Why is the brain shutting down and not realizing that simple fact of reality?

Richard Perle, David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, Dov Zakheim, and Paul Wolfowitz (just to name a few) are not Arabs ... what is with the lobotomy ?

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

noone222  posted on  2007-04-10   20:49:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: noone222 (#58)

Richard Perle, David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, Dov Zakheim, and Paul Wolfowitz (just to name a few) are not Arabs ...

Not a whole lot of Arabs in this crowd, either:

PNAC, ADL, ACLU, AIPAC, NAACP, JINSA, AEI, SPLC, the federal media and Hollywood.

But, nnnnooooo, its the Arabs and thier ocean going battle camels we all need to worry about. They want to take US over.

Supporters of Bush and the Iraq war for Israel and oil are traitors to America and they hate American troops.

wbales  posted on  2007-04-10   21:14:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: noone222 (#58)

Richard Perle, David Wurmser, Douglas Feith, Dov Zakheim, and Paul Wolfowitz (just to name a few) are not Arabs ... what is with the lobotomy ?

And those are not all of a single group of people either :-)

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-11   2:08:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: mirage (#47)

America used to promote self-sufficiency and self-reliance. These days, "progressives" tell us that is no longer needed and that society as a whole needs to take care of everyone as opposed to what we used to do, which was to encourage people to take care of themselves.

Back when it was this way, people also thought it was important to look after one another.

Members of communities helped one another out, when someone built a house others pitched in to help. When someone else built their house, the others would recipricate and pitch in.

We now live in times of extreme selfishness, though as you pointed out the govt system of tax funded safety nets has been abused.

But we've gone from one extreme to the other.

Things worked best when communities looked after their own, when independence was encouraged but people were willing to take turns helping out one another, through barter, helping each other build homes and other buildings, families taking in their elderly members to care for them, watching each other's children when there was a need, etc, because they wanted to, because they cared about each other, that system worked best IMO.

Now it's dog eat dog and each man for himself and to hell with everyone else.

Diana  posted on  2007-04-11   4:25:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: mirage, bluedogtxn (#49)

What I describe is what we were becoming in the 1960s before the "Great Society" took hold.

What I just described was fairly common pre-1920s, it went downhill from there.

Diana  posted on  2007-04-11   4:31:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Diana (#61)

Now it's dog eat dog and each man for himself and to hell with everyone else.

For some perhaps. I take care of my mom as best I can. There isn't anyone else.

If/when it comes time for me to have kids, I'm getting a herding dog as a failsafe and those kids will be able to field-strip an AR15 before they hit grade school most likely.

Press 1 to proceed in English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2007-04-11   4:34:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: YertleTurtle (#5)

As one who has had to listen to more than his share of angry Islamic taxi drivers pissing and moaning about everything they hate about America, I second your post. There is no other group of immigrants remotely close to them in their obnoxiousness.

If they don't want to take the next traveler, they shouldn't work the airport. Go work the mosques if they're too good for some travelers.

I do not believe in Muslim bashing, but no group demands as much as delivers as little, when it comes to immigrating groups.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-11   4:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: mirage (#63)

I take care of my mom as best I can. There isn't anyone else.

That is really commendable, and all too rare anymore.

May you be blessed with a loving wife and many children for a herding dog to guard over!!

Diana  posted on  2007-04-11   4:53:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: bluedogtxn (#25) (Edited)

I'm always amused when someone criticizes the devout for trying to find a path to God, which is, after all, our highest calling in life.

That kind of talk always troubles me.

The highest calling of man is to create his replacement and get that person to adulthood. God? Who is that but an excuse for the beliefs a person holds? And how does being a complete ass on earth pursuing some dogma make one in pursuit of God?

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-11   4:55:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: lodwick (#35)

Allah needs to get off the camel, get out of the 7th century, and join the world of 2007.

God is a creation of men, and that's why Allah is a nervous, sexually inadequate man who guards women like cattle.

Religion is the carrier and bigotry is the disease.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-11   5:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Diana (#61)

Things worked best when communities looked after their own, when independence was encouraged but people were willing to take turns helping out one another, through barter, helping each other build homes and other buildings, families taking in their elderly members to care for them, watching each other's children when there was a need, etc, because they wanted to, because they cared about each other, that system worked best IMO.

Good post.

I have a long practice of giving to community causes, but I like to see some effort on the part of those who raise such funds. I'll buy a grossly overpriced brisket or cake to support the local library or heritage group. I'll buy ridiculously overpriced candy, cookies, and mags from students who want to raise money for that trip or those playoffs.

But don't let me see them begging at the intersection. That riles me. What kind of parent teaches their child that we raise money for summer camp by begging for it?!

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-11   6:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Paul Revere (#66)

The highest calling of man is to create his replacement and get that person to adulthood.

Why?

Really, why bother?

If God is an invention of man, and there is no divinity behind our movement forward or backward or wherever, then why bother replacing myself? All of this world and all of its people will eventually perish and for nothing, if there is no God and nothing beyond this world.

You can't fight entropy, ultimately, and a day or a billion billion years, what's the difference if the story has neither plot nor purpose?

No, I'll take comfort in my house of superstition and light, thanks. I find the spaces you create with nothing to be rather cold and dark.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-11   9:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: bluedogtxn (#69) (Edited)

You think you're pursuing God. I think you're akin to the dog chasing his tail. We disagree on what it means to find God, or what God is.

Finding God to me means losing your pretentions, among them religion and the curious belief that God needs us to praise him.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-11   10:03:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Paul Revere (#70)

Finding God to me means losing your pretentions, among them religion and the curious belief that God needs us to praise him.

I agree that finding God means losing pretentions. I don't think God needs us to praise him, either. But religion has a purpose, which includes finding God. I'd commend to you the first four books of the New Testament, read with an open mind.

And I'd submit to you that Christ, were he alive today, would be crucified all over again in America.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-11   10:46:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: bluedogtxn, HOUNDDAWG (#30)

Danny Glover's campaign in NYC was because blacks have trouble flagging cabs but, most people don't understand that nig....I mean, African Americans don't tip and they commit the majority of assaults and robberies. (HOUNDDAWG)

I gotta wonder what is wrong with you. Did your parents drop you on your head? Were you raised in some throwback hillbilly white trash Atlanta Ghetto?

What on earth makes you think that posting "nig... I mean African Americans" is going to gain you anything but scorn from anyone anywhere?

This is just flamebait from a keyboard bigot who wouldn't have the courage to say something so deeply offensive in front of his target audience. I'm embarrassed for you.

Oh, come on, bluedog, don't you think that's a bit of an overreaction and an unnecessary personal attack of HOUNDDAWG? The truth of the matter is, there are niggers just like there's wiggers and white trash! Bet you a majority of blacks themselves would say this is so. Seems you're capitulating to the PC bullshit which, frankly, surprises me.

Nostalgia  posted on  2007-04-13   16:38:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Nostalgia (#72)

Oh, come on, bluedog, don't you think that's a bit of an overreaction and an unnecessary personal attack of HOUNDDAWG? The truth of the matter is, there are niggers just like there's wiggers and white trash! Bet you a majority of blacks themselves would say this is so. Seems you're capitulating to the PC bullshit which, frankly, surprises me.

There aren't any "niggers".

When I was a kid the only word I could say that would AUTOMATICALLY and no appeal earn me a whuppin' was "nigger".

Oh, I could say the F word or GD or even MF and appeal to my dad's mercy or say something to get out of getting the belt on my ass, but if I said "nigger" it was the belt. Period.

I didn't understand then, but I understand now. First of all, it's a cheap damn shot. If I call you a MF, you can call me one back. But if I'm white and I call you a dirty name that means black, you can't call me the same thing back. So it's a cheap, dirty, unfair thing to say.

Secondly, it says more about me than it says about you. It says that I'm stupid enough to use that kind of language in modern times like I'm some throwback to pre-civil rights era thinking. I'm essentially admitting I'm no more intelligent or educated than some dumbass cracker like Bull Connor. Which would be a piss-poor reflection on my father, ergo, the belt.

Finally, it's a put down of an entire race of people with absolutely no basis in fact. Kinda like what launched the holocaust, and my dad's dad had to go and kill a bunch of the Nazis' allies in the Pacific and his uncle had to go kill a bunch of Nazis, and we didn't need to go starting all that ignorant crap up.

I've argued this before about Imus. It wasn't a question of "free speech" It was a matter of "stupid speech". And stupid speech gets no protection from me.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-13   16:51:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: bluedogtxn (#73)

I understand that this is your personal pet peeve in light of your father's strong feeling about that word. HOUNDDAWG obviously doesn't share that sentiment. The fact that he did use it, somewhat in jest, doesn't mean there's something "wrong with him" or that his mother dropped him on his head! You said elsewhere that this is an issue which is turning friends in liberty against each other. You're right about that. I'm seeing it occur on several threads. It's a shame.

Nostalgia  posted on  2007-04-13   17:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Nostalgia, HOUNDDAWG (#74)

I understand that this is your personal pet peeve in light of your father's strong feeling about that word.

Fair enough. I probably did over-react. I just can't stand that word. Really crawls up my psychic ass, if you know what I mean.

Peace, HOUNDDAWG. Sorry if I jumped all over you without cause.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-13   17:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: bluedogtxn, Nostalgia, HOUNDDAWG (#75)

awwwww..well done. ;)

christine  posted on  2007-04-13   18:01:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: bluedogtxn, Nostalgia, christine, Tauzero (#75) (Edited)

Thank you.

And I apologize for my unkind responses.

I have a problem with forbidden words, particularly since the restrictions apply only to whites of Euro descent.

It is my belief that if we allow others to control the dialectic we will have lost the battle to restore America's greatness before we ever begin. And, America cannot be reclaimed without due credit to the dominant culture and race. One need not be a "hater" a "Nazi" or Triple K Klub member to recognize that the Euro work ethic and intelligence coupled with the radical idea of govt as servant and people as sovereign are from great Euro minds who would not allow others to control them to the extent we are oppressed today.

Just as the anti slavery movement is white in its origin and would not exist without us so is the idea of "if the truth hurts then let it hurt because only the truth can make you free". (Jeff Cooper)

And when I see whites ask again and again "How come there's a Black America pageant but no such thing as an exclusive "White America" pageant?" Or, "How come they can call themselves nig...." you know the rest, I want to tell them that the first thing they must do is free themselves of self imposed mental shackles and refuse to respect PC standards that apply to whites only. And this by necessity requires irreverance from me.

I've written newspaper columns (yes, I've had three columns in small papers in the past) about the contributions made by George Washington Carver, Lewis Latimer (the only African American member of THE EDISON PIONEERS) and other great African American minds. But, I also mentioned that there are few if any exceptional blacks in the sciences today, and it seems that they only rise to prominence in sports, entertainment, politics, and fields that require no dispelling of racial stereotypes. (Exactly as promised by Israel Cohen at the World Communist Congress meeting in 1898) This means that the top spots for black "leaders" can be occupied by mediocre individuals and they are poor role models. Not only because of their lack of intellectual rigor but because they tend to embrace and teach that "white racism" is the reason for failure rather than their own character deficits.

For instance, David Horowitz wrote TEN REASONS WHY REPARATIONS IS A BAD IDEA AND RACIST, TOO. In it he pointed out that Caribbean blacks in the US have incomes roughly equivalent to whites while American born blacks can't seem to find the ladder of opportunity. The reason for this is obvious in my view. Many American born blacks flip out at the slightest indication that I and others like me don't adore them. Your reinforcement of that outrage only hurts and cripples them further.

At the risk of offending you or your dear father, liberals like to feel that "those people down there need our help" and this is the very systemic racism that we heretics justifiably criticize. If you really want to improve things for the downtrodden why don't you attack the system that imprisons so many poor blacks while allowing white children of privilege to slip the noose again and again?

If you simply "do your best" defending them in court but never attack the system its self, then your energy expended on people like me could be better directed. Of course that would involve some risk. Your profession takes a dim view of such heresy.

William Kunstler created a novel defense known as Black Rage Syndrome and unsuccessfully used it to defend Colin Ferguson. He was attempting to justify a killing spree because many blacks won't work hard to overcome obstacles and would rather seize on excuses to stay down. Your attacking me kinda puts you in the Kunstler camp, doesn't it?

And, until you and others can inspire them to be better citizens and stop being professional victims and career criminals, then don't criticize me for my reluctance to abandon the death penalty for racist blacks who commit depraved murders for obvious racial reasons. (Ferguson left CA where he purchased the firearm and went to NY because he didn't want to be executed for his planned murder spree of whites. And, there's an excellent chance he'd have drawn return fire in CA, but little chance of that in NYC)

And if you must challenge capital punishment then do so on the grounds that career prosecutors who err in convicting the wrong defendants seldom admit error, and that is why the chances of executing innocent people may be great. Not because we whites on the juries are "racist".

The day I see a guest column in a newspaper from you naming a prosecutor who wrongly convicted a death row defendant and a judge who wrongly allowed the trial to proceed then that's the day I'll give you leave to criticize me for my lack of respect for your views on proper conduct in a civilized society.

It's not enough that the media won't even report on heinous murders like those committed by The Carr Bros, but they trumpet the James Byrd dragging and maximize the white guilt with it and others like it.

When you attacked me you aligned yourself with the media that for whatever reason feels that blacks need to be protected from the truth about themselves. And, it's also the reason why you believe that the Nazis simply decided to attack Jews one day for no reason at all. Although there is no justification for the treatment of millions who were targeted by Hitler, there were many reasons for resentment of Jews in Germany at that time. A hundred million people lost their lives in the 20th century because of Jewish inspired communism, and we can't even say that in polite company today. And the best example of why is you; an educated professional who isn't even aware of it and would likely savage anyone who said it, and that's exactly the way they want it to be. Does that mean that your father and uncle were dupes who fought for the wrong reasons? Millions of people think so. AND, BTW, the Japanese had legit grievances, too. But, American politicos and Jewish interests needed them to attack us because the people would not sign off on our entry into WWII without provocation. The parallels with the wars today are disturbingly similar.)

You don't really want to align yourself with them and champion American patriotism, too. To do so is evidence of political schizophrenia in my view.

And, thank you to others who spoke up when bluedogtxn reduced me to an ugly cultural stereotype.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-14   15:20:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: HOUNDDAWG (#77)

outstanding and heartfelt

christine  posted on  2007-04-14   15:34:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: christine (#78)

Thank you!

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-14   15:59:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: HOUNDDAWG (#77) (Edited)

Who let THE DAWG out?!!

woof!

woof! woof!

Put me down as a co-signer.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-04-14   16:02:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Paul Revere, christine (#80)

Put me down as a co-signer.

Thank you. Just put your paw print right here then.

What, you don't have paws?

Well, I guess I'll have to rig some method to accommodate the handicapped... ;)

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-04-14   16:05:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: HOUNDDAWG (#77)

When you attacked me you aligned yourself with the media that for whatever reason feels that blacks need to be protected from the truth about themselves. And, it's also the reason why you believe that the Nazis simply decided to attack Jews one day for no reason at all. Although there is no justification for the treatment of millions who were targeted by Hitler, there were many reasons for resentment of Jews in Germany at that time. A hundred million people lost their lives in the 20th century because of Jewish inspired communism, and we can't even say that in polite company today. And the best example of why is you; an educated professional who isn't even aware of it and would likely savage anyone who said it, and that's exactly the way they want it to be. Does that mean that your father and uncle were dupes who fought for the wrong reasons? Millions of people think so. AND, BTW, the Japanese had legit grievances, too. But, American politicos and Jewish interests needed them to attack us because the people would not sign off on our entry into WWII without provocation. The parallels with the wars today are disturbingly similar.)

I've got a different take on a lot of this, as you might imagine.

First of all, as to the word "nigger". My dad grew up in the Civil Rights movement. Prior to that movement, there was genuine discrimination, by law, against blacks. Blacks did not use the word "nigger" to describe each other, whites used it exclusively. And it didn't apply just to the "nigger" negros, it applied to anyone whose skin was a shade too dark or whose hair a tad too curly. My grandfather, who was half Cherokee, was briefly stationed in California prior to his departure to kill Japs. He was mistaken, by some dumbfuck cracker, for an African American because of his dark complexion, and if he hadn't been in the company of his squadmates, who both vouched for him and were ready to kick ass on his behalf, he would likely have taken a beating. It's a dirty word. It has no valid use, neither by the dumbfuck blacks who've decided to adopt it and use it for each other, nor by the whites who aren't aware of what was done under the banner of teaching the "niggers" their place.

Strange fruit didn't blossom on southern trees and tires weren't set on fire in Oklahoma and in Texas because the blacks hanged and necklaced had all done something to warrant it. Whites weren't acquitted in the trial of murdered blacks because they were factually innocent. There was no underlying "truth" about blacks that they need protection from or that we all need to really understand. They were murdered and abused and discriminated against because the people doing it weren't interested in any "truth". They were interested in kicking the crap out of the next low dog on the totem pole because of his status or skin color, and that's it. They abused them because everyone wants to abuse someone, and it was allowed.

As for the Nazis and the Jews, there were plenty of reasons for the German non- Jews to be angry at certain Jews. The financiers, the backers of the Kaiser's undermining in WWI, the godawful influence between the wars, and of course, the commies. But communism wasn't purely inspired by Judaism or by Jews. Just as we have cause to be angry with certain Jews; the AIPAC crew, the Neocons pimping war, the financiers behind the Federal Reserve. There are plenty of good ole' white folks in bed with them, however, and none of it would justify going after the ordinary Jewish dude in the street.

And sure, Roosevelt deliberately provoked the Japs into attacking us, and knew full well that they'd have no choice. But the Japs were already invading a lot of other countries in the name of empire and they were hardly fucking innocents. Plus, the way they fought us, with quarter rarely given and torture openly practiced and a lot of other barbaric shit, real Soviet-style and Nazi- style savagery, I don't shed any tears for the fucking Japs. And you can't lay all that shit off on the Jews, either. There were plenty of non-Jewish Walker- Bush type folks that wanted to make that happen, too.

As for writing a "guest column" criticizing a prosecutor for wrongful convictions and a judge for bias, who do you think you are talking to? I've appealed wrongful convictions as lead counsel and gotten them reversed. I've actually worked with the project innocence people in Illinois in reversing death penalties; including bringing a Wisconsin man home after years on death row. You want me to write a fucking editorial to get street cred with you? I have actually helped to save a man's life, and I didn't have to write the editorials that followed.

I've also helped to prosecute a death penalty case myself, for a guy who rode the spike over ten years ago. I didn't always oppose the death penalty, that's a position I came to after years of soul-searching and religious study. And it's a position I hold mainly for religious reasons.

You get mad because you think I've taken the complicated facts around who you are and pigeonholed you into a box because you feel okay dropping the N-word. You were right, I did that, and I apologized for it.

But don't think for a second that gives you license to turn around and put me in a similar "people like you" or "liberal" or whatever box also.

It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.

bluedogtxn  posted on  2007-04-16   10:30:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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