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Title: Biblical Question
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Published: Apr 20, 2007
Author: KJV
Post Date: 2007-04-20 14:35:03 by intotheabyss
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Views: 1515
Comments: 124
I was wondering about Mathew 5:18-19. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. When you read the 4Th commandment it says: KJV - 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. My question is: Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest? When the bible seems to me to be very clear on this. In Jesus's own words: (one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
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It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain That's what the 7th Day Adventist church is for, people who get excited about this one. The traditional answer I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday. Which as a child bothered me, because I only counted 2 days.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Why? Because Christianity was created in about 320 CE by the Emperor Constantine, who worshiped the sun god, Sol Invictus, and much of the church dogma is aimed at honoring that. The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th. The story of Jesus is one that has many roots, and parts were added to target specific audiences.
The Sabbath was made for men, not God. It's part of the Law, and Christ changed the covenant regarding the law, and instituted a new covenant, with the understanding that no one can follow the law.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
Yes, he was dead Friday, the Sabbath and for part of Sunday when he arose. Like going to a hotel where they charge the sign out day as a full day. Mostly Protestants who forgot Christian history have to re-learn all this stuff over again since they make up their religious traditions as they go along.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
But it says: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.(till heaven and earth pass is quite a long time for this law to be enforced without a change (one jot or one tittle) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandment she shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven What's the law? 4Th Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy Are you suggesting a change i.e. one jot or one tittle?
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain In verse 18, Jesus was referring to his fulfilling the law in our place. He fulfilled the law perfectly, thus the law could be done away with. Back up one verse (which is always a good thing to do anyways). Jesus says he is not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. The law and the sacrifices were all pointing to him. The smearing of the blood on the mantels for Passover made the shape of the cross. Sacrificing the firstborn lamb without blemish. Everything points to Jesus. As far as the first day of the week goes, that was the day Jesus was resurrected. He was crucified on Friday, hence the name Good Friday, and rose on Sunday. Also, in Acts 20:7 the disciples came together to break bread, and in the KJV it seems like they did this regularly, Paul came and preached to them and kept going until midnight. Paul says in 1Cor 16:2 to lay store offerings for the church on the first day of the week.
Actually the days don't start getting longer until around January 4.
I am finding this to be true.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Can you show me where this happened?
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Protestant garbage. Christianity existed before Constantine liberated the faith and legalized it and embraced it. The Orthodox church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th - it was a date selected to honor his birth with the added bonus it was a day already celebrated. Like pushing all the presidents in one day because its the only dates available, etc. The Protestants who have a beef about Rome make up some story to make it seem they are the true Christians and we get Da Vinci Code crap as religion.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The day started at sunrise. The women arose before sunrise and found the tomb empty. Unless you want to argue that the sun arose during their journey.
Here's a book you might find interesting that will answer your query in-depth: Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Then why doe he say: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. If we no longer needed to follow it.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain I've never used wiki for a religious source, let's see how this works out. Nothing here on 4th Commandment, but plenty on New Convenant. I was unaware there is a Jewish "New Covenant"; I see it got top billing on wiki ;P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant In general we're under Grace, not the OT Law. Romans 6 (the whole chapter deals with grace vs law) But none of this really answers your orginal question. Let me ask you one. Who decides which day of the week is the Sabbath? "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
What time they woke up is not the time they went to the empty tomb, Nimord. Or do you think unaccompanied women in the Middle East would feel free to walk at night to the graveyard?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Let me ask you one. Who decides which day of the week is the Sabbath? Look he said in his own words (in the new testament): "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven" I think it's universally recognized as Saturday.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The same Jesus that broke the law when he did not allow an adulteress to be stoned to death?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It is, and Christmas is universally acknowledged to be Dec 25th, but Christ was probably born during the summer months, because the shepherds were in the fields. The point being, what is important is that there is a day, not exactly which day.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That's a gross mischaracterization. Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And none did. In other words, he called their attention to what the whole Torah requires (for example, that none may be convicted and put to death without the testimony of two witnesses, etc.). As none had abided by Torah in (almost) stoning this woman, none could with a clear conscience, when called out, cast the first stone. In this, Jesus did not violate Torah. He upheld it. If Jesus had not kept Torah perfectly, he would not be qualified to atone for the sins of this world. You are a Christian, right? Don't you know (and believe) this?
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
In Europe, Sunday is the seventh day as calandars list monday first (day of the moon). Which one is first or last is pretty much relative. Also, all the names of the days of the week are basically pagen in origin, like the planet names. The bible, of course, doesn't refer to any weekday names by pagen names at all.
I've heard it claimed that what he was writing in the sand during the time they were about to stone her may have been the sins they all committed, and they realized it was hypocritical for them to stone her when they had their own sins. As the only one there who was without sin, Jesus was qualified to kill her, but showed mercy.
Oh, I see. The problem with you is that the you forget Jesus was not a Christian - he came to live fully under the law - then after Jesus conquered death he set out his apostles to spread the New Covenant with all humanity.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
There is a theory that this is where Yule, the 12 Days of Christmas, comes from. If you are taking a neolithic sun shot with a couple of aligned stones and no clocks its hard to tell exactly when the solstice happens. What you can do however is watch for the reversal of the points of both sunrise and sunset. After a week or so you can be sure that the sun has passed throuh its northen most point and is again heading south. The period of uncertainty is the holiday period.
.
Actually, the days DO start getting longer after Dec 22nd.
Christianity existed before Constantine liberated the faith and legalized it and embraced it. The Orthodox church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th - it was a date selected to honor his birth with the added bonus it was a day already celebrated. Like pushing all the presidents in one day because its the only dates available, etc. The Protestants who have a beef about Rome make up some story to make it seem they are the true Christians and we get Da Vinci Code crap as religion. Another Papist fool, I see. The Catholic Church was created in about 320 CE. There was no such animal before, and certainly no Pope. The Catholic church was a state religion, which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization. I could care less about your shrill comments regarding Protestants. They have nothing to do with this, which is a matter of history. The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world.
Christmas and New Year's are all the same celebration in ancient cultures. They correctly recognized that in the "heavens" the "sun" was their "savior," the thing that brought them warmth, light, and life. They observed the heavens, observed the stars, the sun, and the moon, and saw how they had cycles. Harvest came in late fall, and winter set in as the days got shorter. Christmas day is the day that the sun begins its track back against the sky. It was therefore the "sun's" birthday. Seeing that the sun had begun its journey against the sky, and towards longer days, gave the ancients new hope for the new year. And that's why we celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th. The story of Jesus is an ancient allegory, and it has been told several other places BEFORE the story of Jesus appeared. Astrotheology & Shamanism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxzwiP5ocs here: Jesus vs Horus
I am not Catholic.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
I did not defend the Catholic church I defended history - as someone who has read the original histories of the period in school in the original Koine Greek. The church was already a force in the east where the bishops had already set up parallel institutions. The emperor called a council to unify the church and correct dogmas that had drifted due to isolation between Christian communities during the underground outlaw years of the church. The emperor was already shifting his empire from West to east and Christians in the east were already majorities in some places. The West was still mostly pagan still.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus. He used Christianity to consolidate his power, and he used the Catholic church, which he created, to do it. You can beat your bishops all you want, but they had little power until he gave it to them. Of course, the bishops had almost nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Like most church figures, they were men looking after themselves. But I do love hearing guys like you telling their religious fairy tales. Now run along, Tinker Bell.
I forgot he was not a Christian? It was you who claimed that he sinned by violating Torah, not I. Some Christians think Torah was abrogated at (or even before) the cross. But, as in the passage quoted atop this thread, Jesus said otherwise. So, which one of us forgot he is not a Torah-rejecting (3rd-century) Christian but a 1st-century Torah-keeping Jew? I think it was the one who said he was a Torah-breaker.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Where does the guy wind up in that passage? He shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Under the law where does he wind up? Not in Heaven at all. You can break the laws and still go to heaven. Prior to Christ, everyone stood condemned by the law. EVERYONE. Nobody was not condemned. The Highest standing judge and the lowest pedophile were equally condemned by the law. Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands. And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it. Amen. Very well put.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This part is quite a puzzler, think I'll look it up. For one thing, I don't quite understand "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law...". What is a jot and what is a tittle? Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
A jewish day went/goes from sundown to sundown. IIRC, its been suggested that it ran/runs roughly 6pm to 6pm. Their Sabbath begans at sundown Friday evening and runs til sundown Saturday evening.
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross; therefore, the law had not been fulfilled as he stated these words. Hence, the law was still in force and effect. Once he went to the cross and was resurrected, the Law was complete. The law had been established to show man that he could not keep God's laws of his own volition. The sacrifices were established so that they could grasp the idea that something/someone had to die because the penalty for death was sin. They physically had to put their hands on the animal to be sacrificed in order to bring home the point that someone/something OTHER THAN THEMSELVES was paying the penalty. This is shadow or type or pattern--I can't remember the correct terminology. But Christ was the perfect unblemished sacrifice THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD for payment/ransom of sin's curse, or death. Recall that Christ said even to think the thought was as bad as doing the deed--that makes sin even easier to understand and to realize none of us were/are perfect or can do perfect obedience to God's will. Once Christ died, the Law was done. We no longer have to do this sacrifice stuff...the price was already paid. If the Law is not dead, then a bunch of people who don't believe it are really in deep doo because of all these years they've not followed every single jot and tittle nuanced meaning that could be arranged/changed by usage in the laws set down to Moses. By rejecting Christ and what He did, the unbelievers are under the condemnation of the Law which is spiritual death.
The old manuscripts do designate 'heaven' as 'heavenS'. I haven't come across any details of various levels, but that certainly doesn't mean they are not found in Scriptures--I just haven't come across it yet. I do believe there are 'levels', if you want to call them that.....perhaps based on the degree of your 'rewards'.........for doing the various things Jesus told us to do, i.e., care for the helpless, widows, children, those in need....live a godly life, praise and worship God, etc. Pray and read Scriptures to enlarge your knowledge and understanding. Faithing. Those sorts of things. I believe that some do lots more than others and their 'special rewards' will be greater than others, still. I could be wrong, but I"m not worried about it. It doesn't figure into what I believe, how I faith, or the things I do as Jesus said to do. :)
Jesus hinted at it with the parable of the talents, and Paul, when he said that he'd "rather be a gate-keeper in the House of the Lord..." There may be lots of other examples, but those two, popped to mind.
WHO CHANGED THE SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY? http://jbrooks2.tripod.com/WHO_CHANGED_THE_SABBATH_SATURDAY_TO_SUNDAY.html The Jews, the REAL Jews, not the ZIONISTS, worship and recognize Saturday as the Sabbath. Who are the lairs?
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Well .. Jesus was and IS the fulfillment of the Law.. "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.".. He fulfilled the law..the law is no longer for those in Christ written as it's said on stone tablets but written in the hearts of those who are called by His name.. Therefore, the Sabbath (part of the law) is fulfilled in Jesus .. remember when the veil was torn when Jesus died? Men no longer had to go to the temple etc to be with God.. but the Spirit was released.. SO if we are in Christ Jesus.. we are keeping the Sabbath for He IS the Sabbath. It's not a day or a rule..
And why Sunday some may ask? Sunday is the 'eighth' day.. so to speak and if you study.. the eighth day is mentioned numerous times in scripture.. the day Abraham was commanded to circumsize boys.. that is dedicate them to God..which was a blood covenant.. all foretelling of the blood covenant we have with God through the blood of Christ.
http://www.worldslastchance.com/
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Thanks for the link but I'm of the opinion that the bible isnt to be read like the newspaper.. often some who have these type theories forget about 2,000 years of history..consider what has taken place in that 2,000 years.. not just the since the 1800s.
The Bible also says to come together on the first day of the week and partake of the Lord's supper. The Sabbath is still a day of rest and it's still Saturday, but Sunday is when Christians are commanded to assemble.
God is always good! The Forgotten Commandment
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Many Old Testament scriptures relate that believers are to keep the seventh day Sabbath (forever it says) as a sign between them and God. And I don't want to get into a dispute about it either, but the above analysis of the Law being fulfilled by Jesus doesn't meet the "forever" requirement. The temple veil being torn and representing the end of the law requires some interpretation. Keep the Sabbath forever as a sign between ye and me is straight forward and stands without reference to interpretation. This has been an issue for debate for a long time and by many ... someone is right and someone is wrong.
14th Amendment / Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. [You have the right to remain silent, shut up and pay your taxes peasants ... hehehehehe].
Sorry I disagree.. in a way.. of course we are to keep the Sabbath.. but not in the way you are meaning.. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.. therefore if we are 'in' Him .. everyday is the Sabbath .. we are keeping the Sabbath if we are called by His name.
Here ya go (from wikipedia): In the Greek original translated as English "jot and tittle" is found iota and keraia.[1] Iota is the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet (¹), but since only capitals were used at the time the Greek New Testament was written (™), it probably represents the Hebrew or Aramaic yodh (•7;) which is the smallest letter of the Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets. "Keraia" is a hook or serif, possibly accents in Greek but more likely hooks on Hebrew or Aramaic letters, (”9;) versus (•9;), or additional marks such as crowns (as Vulgate apex) found in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses, which are the first five books of the Jewish Bible. A keraia is also used in Greek numerals.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
The first mention of "new covenant" was in the "Old" Testament, not the "New", by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:31). He specifically says that God will make a "new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
It's too bad the NT writer didn't share that particular detail with us. We can only guess at what he wrote, but whatever he wrote, was enough to stop a lynch mob cold. Powerful stuff, indeed.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Under the Law, a sinner could never approach or be in the presence of God....the veil between the Holy Place and Most Holy of Holies blocking them. Even the sacrifice given didn't buy access. The High Priest himself was a sinner and had to make sacrifice for himself before he could even take the nations' sacrifice into the Holy of Holies. OTOH, Christ fulfilled completely the Law--he obeyed it heart and mind, and he became the sacrifice to cover or atone (die for) all sins, past, present, and future. At his death, the veil in the temple was torn apart which meant that individuals how had access to God through the Messiah. God looks at us through how he views Christ. If the Law was still active, it would void what Christ has done. The Law was a type or picture or pattern of what was to come with the new covenant. The Israelites didn't obey the old, just rejecting GOd as their God; and hence, He would reject them as His people--for a time. I don't believe it is permanent rejection--at least not right now. The 'old' doesn't replace the 'new'; it is the reverse. IIRC, it is Hebrews Chapter 8 that discusses the old decaying away because of the new covenant....and speaking of the Messiah in the process.
There are very viable scriptural based conclusions that can be drawn to support both sides of this New/Old Covenant equation. 1st. One should ask whether scriptures were susceptible to corruption by anyone with an agenda. The answer is obvious and Constantine made it blatantly apparent in 325 AD. [Then we should consider whether the possibility of corruption was greater with respect to the Old Testament scriptures or the New Testament scriptures. When New Testament Scripture causes God to be a liar, shortsighted or less than perfect they should be investigated. All scripture should be reconcilable with other scripture ... precept upon precept, line upon line. My studies have led me to think that the Old Testament scriptures had been around far too long and there were too many copies available for them to be corrupted to a large degree. Jesus quoted from Isaiah, the Book of Isaiah was found completely intact at Qum Ram (Dead Sea Scrolls). No such evidence has ever been found to support the existence of the Book of Esther. That isn't to say the potential for their existence is impossible but I believe it is improbable and that Esther is a fraud. 2nd. Each of us is responsible individually for our own beliefs, and we can realize these through study and commentary of others. I think one lifetime is insufficient for accomplishing a clear and perfect understanding of God, God's Will, or our relevance to the equation. Yet, knowing this I am somewhat consumed by the quest for a better understanding of these things while others find the whole subject irrelevant. My feeling about Sabbath is that God only has to say for ever once, but repeated the importance of Sabbath observance from the period of creation throughout all Old Testament Scripture. I don't think God ever said not to do it. I think there may be exceptions that are acceptable, but the wholesale change from Saturday to SUNday is a man made exception that is a corruption of what God described as a sign between thee and Me" for ever. We are informed through scripture that men are liars, that they will make merchandise of our souls, that one will think to change the days and times of God etc., yet we allow men to alter our mindset through interpretation and for the sake of convenience. We go along to get along and that's exactly why this country is so fucked up. A little change here, a little change there and the next thing you know the country has been bankrupted by a bunch of crooked bankers that convinced us to quit the standard proscribed by God which is EQUAL WEIGHTS and MEASURES. Do I have all the answers ? Nope. Is the Sabbath Saturday ? Yep. And I have developed a system for comprehending things for myself that has held up pretty well for me. When comprehension of a subject requires miles of legalese and commentary it's corrupted. If it is straight forward and honest without the need to decipher and twist interpretation it's more likely true. It's K.I.S.S. for God's children. [Keep it simple stupid]. The importance of the TRUST factor can never be over-estimated. When we truly place 100% TRUST in God rather than a 50-50 split with man (government or preaching prostitutes), just in case God don't exist, we show our true colors and dis-belief. Until God's children stand up on their own two feet in opposition to every act against the laws of God they are serving a false god and living in fear ... when His instruction is for us to NEVER fear MEN who can only destroy the physical body. I don't know that this response will solve anything at all. I wanted to respond without offending anyones sensibilities because I'm fully capable of being wrong. I try to limit the risk when it comes to offending the Creator of the Universe, and I think Sunday worship is offensive to the Creator because He said so plainly. Many will disagree, and my response is simply, OK. Edited Comment: Until we realize the righteousness of God's Laws and statutes and walk in them according to His law, we walk in utter blindness being led around by the nose completely controlled by that GREAT DECEIVER dressed up like a banker, preacher or a politician that acts as an agent of satan. We are the proximate cause of our own destruction because we ignore the Laws of God in order to bow our knee to (corruption) man.
14th Amendment / Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. [You have the right to remain silent, shut up and pay your taxes peasants ... hehehehehe].
By and large, we agree. And I thank you for taking the time for laying our your position. I really agree that it takes more than a lifetime, or if ever, that we come to a complete understanding of God and His will. Many times as I do daily study, I have this big sense of urgency--as though I can't take it all in fast enough or soon enough. Thanks again for responding.....more to chew on.
Good thoughts - thanks.
I'm not really worried which day is first or last on a calendar. The 4th commandment says: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." And most scholars agree that the Sabbath is Saturday
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world. I tend to agree.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization. The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world. I tend to agree. Thanks. I don't how anyone can read the teachings of Jesus and think the Catholic church has anything to do with his teachings. As a crime organization, it spans 17 centuries of stealing from the poor and fellating the powerful.
That may be true. Although that does not diminish the case that Saturday is the day intended for rest and worship. There is an official Vatican document basically bragging about the pontiff’s power since the Catholic Church was able to change that day to Sunday.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain It's SUNday because Constantine worshipped Sol Invictis, the sun god. That's also why Dec 25th is the birth of Jesus. It's the day the ancients believed the sun was astronomically reborn each year.
There is nothing about sacrifice in the 10 commandments. And I'm sure "Thou shall not kill" as well as many other commandments are still quite valid. In Revelations: "those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be saved?????????????? We all know as well as Jesus knew that Revelations would occur AFTER his death/resurrection. So Jesus knew the commandment were still valid, remember - "Till heaven and earth pass" I think a lot of people have trouble seeing the simple logic in this due to the Dogma they have been fed for so many years by the Baal churches.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. I'm glad to see some awake souls on this thread.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain What kind of worship does the Saviour call that which is not according to God's commandments? "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." Matt. 15:9
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain You're right. Let's see what else the Catholic church pushes that has no scriptural basis: 1. Idolizing and worshipping Mary 2. Making and using graven images for worship 3. Showing alms before men 4. Public prayer 5. Child baptism 6. Sunday as day of worship And it goes on and on ....
Excellent post.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The really sad thing is so many good meaning people buy into some of these issues.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The Law was more than the 10 Commandments. With the New Covenant, God's laws are written in our 'hearts' (our consciences).
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus says that until all pass away and fulfilled (and it is not his death and resurrection on the cross) nothing should be taken from the commandments (10 and otherwise). You can find the time in Revelations 21. Jesus had problems with people wanting to change the law to suit their needs, he jumped on hypocrites for changing the law that said if their children cursed their parents they should be put to death. The Hypocrites said basically, perhaps these children of ours would benefit them later and disobeyed the law. Harsh as it may sound, Jesus knew allowing children to curse parents would cause more problems than society could later stand (see how strained our society is now). We now all reap the results. People now days say it is ok to kill unborn innocent babies, it is ok to do this and that ect... Now days people preach that breaking the Sabbath is ok, Walmart shopping is more a convience now. People now days say Jesus made a new convenent with people, but it just ain't so. Yes, you can be saved, but you are still to practice the "law". Levels of heaven.... lol... don't get weird on me... just a word of "fine job there AbbyNormal" would be enough to last me the first 10,000 years in heaven.. but I am sure it takes 10,000 years before you get over how awesome the place is anyway and actually say something. Jesus wants us to do his will, and teaching others that the "law" is no more might get you a "least" award.
(Mark 7:9-13) is a good start.
Like going to a hotel where they charge the sign out day as a full day. Mostly Protestants who forgot Christian history have to re-learn all this stuff over again since they make up their religious traditions as they go along. There you go again Destro - spreading falsehoods and backing up the teachings of man as opposed to what the Scriptures actually say. "Like going to a hotel"... What a load of horseshit. In this instance you are going against what the Messiah Himself told us. I suppose He was LYING though... Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Friday - day Edited to include echo5sierra
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Jesus says that until all pass away and fulfilled (and it is not his death and resurrection on the cross) nothing should be taken from the commandments (10 and otherwise). You're right. His death and resurrection did NOT fulfill ALL. There are many prophesies which have YET to BE fulfilled. Thus the Law still stands in full force and effect. Funny how so many people seem to have a major problem understanding a simple little word like all. OR ignore it when it comes from the teachings of the Messiah Himself. They tend to want to "interpret" everything. 2Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
As long as so-called Christians are willing to accept the "if you believe in Jesus you're saved" or "once saved always saved" theories, violations of the fundamental constructs that promote a harmonious social structure will be undermined because the blank check covering all wrong doings will be abused. Editor's Note: Satan "believes" in Jesus !
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
hello, abbynormal, welcome to 4. ;)
Well if you accept mythology of the virgin birth, rising from the dead and so on - it's not much of a stretch.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
As I posted earlier, this bothered me as a child, but then in Sunday School I learned a little more. Do you really think you're going to stumble across something new, after 2,000 years? http://www.carm.org/diff/Matt12_40.htm The Jewish day was measured from sun down to sun down. If Jesus was in the grave for three 24 hour periods, then He could not have been raised on the third day because the third day had not yet been completed. He would have to be raised on fourth day for three 24 hour periods to have been completed and that wouldn't make sense to then say He was raised on the third day. So, what is going on? starts at sundown on Thu.. Crucifixion Sabbath He rose The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day.1 "Since the Jews reckoned part of a day as a full day, the “three days and three nights” could permit a Friday crucifixion."2 This phenomena is exemplified in scripture in the book of Esther. "Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa, and fast for me; do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maidens also will fast in the same way," (Esther 4:16 ). Then, in Esther 5:1 it says, "Now it came about on the third day that Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace in front of the king’s rooms, and the king was sitting on his royal throne in the throne room, opposite the entrance to the palace." We can see that even though the three days and nights had not been completed, Esther went in to see the King on the third day even though she said to fast for three days and nights. We see that "on the third day" is equivalent to "after three days." Additionally, Mark 8:31 says, "And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again." Yet, 1 Cor. 15:4 says, "and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures." Also, Luke 24:5-7, "and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead? 6"He is not here, but He has risen. Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee, 7saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again." Here we can see that "after three days" is equivalent to mean "on the third day." Therefore, we can see that because of the Jewish usage of counting any part of a day as the whole of the day, the term "three days and nights" is idiomatic and not literal. "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That may be so, but the issue is about the "commandments" not the "law". 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDMENTS, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain You can find the time in Revelations 21. Amen! You can also find several references to people being saved in Revelations based on their "faithfullness to the COMMANDMENTS". How much more do we need to spell it out for certain people.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Agreed. I do not believe the Bible is the book most people think it is. Much of the Old Testament is stolen from other texts in the Egypt to Mesopotamian areas, and much of the New Testament is stolen from those same texts, or taken from Eastern allegories. There are other mythical heroes who were presented as being very similar to Jesus, right down to the virgin birth and the resurrection. If someone wishes to follow the teachings of Jesus, I think that is great. Real or not, his teachings are good guideposts. I find discussions about whether God cares about Sunday or Saturday to be immensely comical. But if one is going to read the text and declare what is to be done based upon the text, it's clearly SATURDAY, not Sunday that Christians should stay home and not do any work or such.
That's part of the reason I brought this up. I listened to so many Christians use the bible to defend this point of that and claim that it is their guide. But on this issue (4th commandment) so many want to twist the text to fit their lifestyle when this issue is more spelled out then many of the other issues they use based on scripture. Oh, there are many discrepancies: Pious Fraud in Translation Let's take a look at the very first words of the book of Genesis. Note very carefully that the Hebrew culture, at the time of this writing, was not monotheistic, but rather, polytheistic. Will your priest, minister or preacher tell you that? No. But you can find out for yourself with a simple dictionary. The Hebrew word for God is el; the plural is elohim, gods. What is the first sentence in the Bible? "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen. 1:1). Here is Genesis 1:1 in Hebrew (transliterated into the Latin alphabet, of course): "Bereshith bara elohim," etc., "In-beginning created (the) gods (the) heavens and (the) earth." In the same chapter the word "elohim" (gods) is used thirty times., Those gods are the ones who created the 'universe' in 6 days. To clarify, here is the translation of the Hebrew text of Genesis 1. Notice how Jewish and Christian 'fathers' don't bother to tell you what the original text says. They would like you to believe that a single god created everything. But, they messed up big time and actually translated it properly. In plain English, the translation reads 'let us make man in our image': Here are three examples of the Hebrew plural gods mentioned in Genesis: 1. "And- said elohim (gods), let-US-make man (adam) in-image-OUR, after-likeness-OUR" (1:26). 2. And when "adam" had eaten of the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowledge, "the Lord God" said, "Behold, the-man has become like one of US, to know good and evil" (3:27). 3. And when the Tower of Babel was being built: "The Lord [Heb. Yahveh] said ... Come, let US go down," etc. Elohim When speaking of the Hebrew deity, Yahveh, elohim, (gods) is used in the Hebrew texts, The plural elohim is used 2570 times. It is always falsely translated to the singular "God", thus falsely making us believe that this text was written at a time when the Hebrew people were monothestic, when it clearly is the case (written at least 2570 times, no less!) that they WERE NOT. In the three Genesis verses above, there are three different designations of the Hebrew deity or deities: elohim, (gods), falsely translated "God": Lord God (Heb. Yahveh-elohim); and Lord (Heb. Yahveh). Yahveh is the proper name of the Hebrew God, which, in English, is Jehovah. Yahveh-elohim is a Hebrew "construct-form" which is translated to "Yahveh-of- the-gods." Invariably these personal names were falsely translated "Lord" and "Lord God," respectively, for purposes of pious fraud. First Man, First Woman There was no first man "Adam," according to the Hebrew text. The word adam in Hebrew is a common noun, meaning man in a generic sense and in Genesis 1:26, it states: "And elohim (gods) said, Let us make adam (man)"; and so "elohim created ha- adam (the-man); ... male and female created he them" (1: 27). In the second creation story, where man is first made alone: "Yahveh formed ha-adam (the-man) out of the dust of ha-adamah-the ground" (2:7). Man is called in Hebrew adam because he was formed out of adamah, the ground; just as in Latin man is called homo because he was formed from humus, the ground. Early Christian father Lactantius stated it as 'homo ex humo' ('man from the ground', or 'dust' as it commonly stated today). The forging of the name Adam from the Hebrew noun adam into a mythical proper name Adam, was after the so-called Exodus. The fraud in the forging of fictitious genealogies from "in the beginning" to Father Abraham. And this wasn't done by Christians, but rather by early Hebrew priests. Nonetheless, early Christians took this deception and used it for their own newly forged religion.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Some of my favorite themes that many Christians never absorb ... I'm still waiting to meet the Christian that follows these: *turn the other cheeck *judge not that you be not judged *do unto others as you would have them do unto you *do not pray in public *do not boast of your alms *visit those in prison (99.99% of Christians are going to hell on this one!) *clothe the naked *feed the hungry No, they're busy buying TV stations, building monstrous churches and generally wallowing in delusional self-righteousness. Now watch all the "Christians" form a lynch mob. Not much has changed. Religion is the opiate of the masses, and they'll kill you for messing with their stash.
A lot of that is going on in the Bible belt. My friend, who is from Syria (yes he is Islamic) and I had a conversation about what would happen if Jesus showed up today but did not tell people his name. Well we both came to the conclusion that as soon as he started teaching people his true teachings he would be shunned by most including most of the preachers. Because his teachings would not allow for their lifestyle and would not fit "I'm a believer and that's all I need" mentality. Don't get me started on how often Jesus mentions how "he would not know you" if you do not do the "works" associated with the "belief".
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Hell, I'm convinced he would be shunned more by the so called Christians today than he was by the public at large 2000 years ago.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain If Jesus returned today and did not announce himself, simply started teaching as he always did, he'd be ARRESTED at almost every Protestant church in America, as well as at every Catholic Church, and every Mormon church.
If JC showed up today, complete with the miracles, his contempt for self- righteous folks, his embracing of non-violence and his eschewing of material wealth, make no mistake. He would be crucified all over again.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
It probably would be that bad. My friend's and my conversation also covered the "second coming" and we both wondered if it would even happen due to the above degradation of his teachings.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain This, IMHO is the biggest achilles heel of our society.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain This, IMHO is the biggest achilles heel of our society. Well, like the poor, we will always have the wealthy with us. Inequity is human. For myself, I'm about tired of the uber-rich using their money to subvert our democracy. I'm starting to favor a Russian style revolution over an American style one.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
Amen! (This Amen may be all I need to do to end up on the red/blue? list for my encampment when the Feds push for their full agenda. You aren't a provocateur are you?) Oh well I don't really give a sh_t anymore. If we are that far gone, f--- it.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain ROTFLOL! ROTFLOL! I have beaten you now, intotheabyss! Just as I defeated the SKYDRIFTER and Nolu_Chan! Bwahahahaha! None dare to challenge me! I am BeAChooser! ROTFLOL! ROTFLOL!
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
Mad as a hatter I'd venture to say.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Ah, but if I were a provocateur, wouldn't I pretend to be mad to lure you in and dispel your fear? Of course, I wouldn't tell you this if I were an agent provocateur, but then if I were a really smart agent provocateur I would know that I wouldn't tell you this, so I would tell you this just to lull you into a false sense of security about my not being an agent provocateur, but then if I then explained this whole thing I couldn't be an agent provocateur, but I would know that, so I might just explain the whole thing to put you off your guard... "Paranoia is a survival trait in a decidership." -bluedogtxn
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
I'm really the easter bunny.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain You're on my list, Mr. "bunny". ROTFLOL!
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
Great post ! I'm at lunch otherwise I'd go on and on about it ! Fortunately for everyone ... I gotta go.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: Dying of old age is about as exciting a prospect as suicide by cigarettes.
Thanks
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Still is - for all of us, even if we don't want to recognize it as such. I'm not buying it. The Messiah SPECIFICALLY stated 3 days and 3 nights... The ONLY way to work that would have been if the crucifixion happened EARLY Friday - which would have been AFTER sundown Thursday and BEFORE sunrise.
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
Also from the link in my post above. The chart explains it.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
But only after they had water boarded him a couple of dozen times, and had a secret "confession" wherein he admitted he was in on 9-11.
How much more do we need to spell it out for certain people. It probably can't be done. Some folks would like to think that all they need to do is pray in Jesus' name, or do some good deeds like helping the little old lady down the street once in a while, and they'll get a "just reward". Course, they DIDN'T get that from Scripture (even if they CLAIM they did). Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. I don't know what folks figure "doing the will of God" is, but for me I'm thinking it must be to keep His Commandments Statutes and Judgments. After all, we were told that 172 times in Scripture. You don't just tell folks to do something 172 times unless it's damned important to you that they do it. If the entire world practiced the 759 Commandments, Statutes and Judgments outlined in Scripture, there would be NO NEED whatsoever for ANY other laws PERIOD AND we would all live happier healthier lives with so much more liberty than we have now we wouldn't know how to act...
No matter how noble the objectives of a government; if it blurs decency and kindness, cheapens human life, and breeds ill will and suspicion - it is an EVIL government. Eric Hoffer
*turn the other cheeck *judge not that you be not judged Read futher instead of paraphrasing the quotes. You will notice that "Turn the other cheek" is for an insult, not a direct assualt. Which cheek was hit is a good hint. One might be able to walk off from an insult, but not from a direct attack. You have messed up the last quote so bad it is hard to even start. The person who is not to judge is the hypocrite. Someone had a good write up on that the other day, wish I had saved it, but alas I didn't. Needless to say, twisting the words around, people have made this into "judge not and you will not be judged" phrase. It simply isn't so. It does say you will be judged with basically the same measuring stick you use, but not that you will not be judged. All in all you have made works the means to heaven, and Jesus drilled the priest for just that mentality. There is nothing you can do that "works" you way to heaven if you don't go through the "blood" first.
Thanks, but I'm familiar with the text and what it means, and have been for some time. I do enjoy the efforts of the indoctrinated to explain their curious beliefs, however, so thanks for sharing. Here's your Jesus, the fictional hero with a dozen different names in the ancient world. Jesus vs Horus
LOL, I tried to register AbbyNormal as my name , but messed up and deleted my durn Yahoo mail message to register it. So I went to backup name number 3... So you can call me AbbyNormal or just AnyNameOriginal... either will work..
This tape also discusses how Jesus was an allegory, like several other ancient myths, the tale of the sun moving throughout the year. Even the quotes attributed to Jesus are found in documents predating him over 2000 years. Astrotheology & Shamanism
Thanks, I will put that in the same circular file I put my moldy left over food in, right before I throw it away. I don't put garbage in my head, I know what you put in often comes out of your mouth, but thanks for the offer.
You're worshipping an ancient allegory for the sun's annual trip across the skies. Most of the key teachings of Jesus were lifted verbatim from either the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh or the Egyptian Book of the Dead.
I find it difficult to deny the prophecy and instruction provided by scripture; while the many variations of comparable religions / myths / belief systems and teachings are all too obvious to those that inquire deeper than the slop handed out at the 501(C)(3) churches. It's too easy and actually careless to attack others "religious" orientation, especially if it serves no other purpose than to exalt ones own intellect. One thing's for certain, we're all immersed in an evil situation that continues to worsen daily. It'd be unusual if people didn't seek spiritual solutions in times like these, and everyone doesn't learn at the same time or at the same rate of speed. Callous disregard for others beliefs isn't expedient, it more likely serves to inflate ones ego at the expense of unifying a populace that really needs to align against evil, now. Sometimes the most astute observations are made by the simplest of minds.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: Dying of old age is about as exciting a prospect as suicide by cigarettes.
Sometimes the most astute observations are made by the simplest of minds. If that's true, then you mind must be becoming simpler and simpler (because your posted observations are most astute, indeed). At the risk of derailing a humble, simple mind posting sublime nuggets of wisdom with the soul-blinding sin of pride, kudos, noone222.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
People who believe the Bible is the word of God seldom exhibit any spiritual qualities at all. They construct a paradigm with the help of some pseudo holy man, and live inside that paradigm, which is entirely fictitious. The Bible is a library of books written by men, compiled and edited by men, and used by men to control masses. Most of it was taken from earlier texts in the region. The seeker of knowledge doesn't stop with his preacher and what he says. I've noticed that those who insist others should respect their beliefs seldom respect the beliefs of others who do not worship their God. It's a one way street, like most of the things the religious claim they live and believe. No one will kill you faster than an insulted Christian, which really tells the whole story, doesn't it?
From my observations I have to agree with your post, all too true. Religion too often brings out some very nasty human characteristics, and the the more religious, the less spiritual indeed seems to be the case.
Yes!
It's a curious phenomenon. In our country, the majority believers - Christians - take for granted the rightness of their beliefs, and think tolerance means other should allow them to rule society, imposing their prayers in schools, in public events, and displaying their religious icons everywhere. No, those who have to be tolerant in our society are those who recognize Christendom for what it is and what it has become over 2000 years. Anyone who has studied ancient history and ancient texts knows that the beatitudes attributed to Jesus were around at least 2000 years before his birth, and appear in a number of texts, particularly the Epic of Gilgamesh. Horus, Krishna, Buddha - all the same fictional character as Jesus, all used to pass along a tale of the progression of the sun and the seasons through the year. Over time, morality lessons were woven into the stories, and that is why these heroes all possess the same history and espouse the same beliefs. God knows no religion. Religion is man's invention, to control the social agenda of those in power.
I've always thought religion was man's attempt to reach and understand God, and the various religions reflect the societies that come up with them. What bothers me about the bible is the fact that it has been altered so many times, especially in the early days when a lot of material was taken out. Then it was retranslated, altered again, yet people insist it is the word of God. I would be curious to read the form of the bible as it existed before around 325 AD.
It's not that bad. The original languages were used for translation. http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=727167 There are two points that need to be made: First, even though the Biblical canon was developed over hundreds of years, its basic form is recognizable by 150 AD. The following 200 years of development and refining deal with more peripheral books. Second, the early church did a pretty good job of historical criticism when it set the canon. Nothing in the modern canon was written after 130 AD, and most of the works are significantly older. There were a lot of books that claimed to be old, but the early church was able to distinguish those from true accounts of the 1st 100 years after Jesus.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Yes, it was about then the Nazification of Christianity began, as the STATE took over and guided the more than willing self appointed Bishops into a newly created religion, the Catholic church. They used a meat axe to carve out anything early Christians believed that the powers that be wanted gone. They labelled Mary Magdeline a whore, with no basis whatsoever, and eliminated her gospel, as well as all the gnostic gospels. They gutted early Christianity, and removed many of the good parts. They added much to make Christianity palatable to the Sun God worshippers, incorporating pagan rituals and beliefs not found anywhere in the Bible (Christmas, worship of Mary, etc.)
I'd like to be able to say you're the first to notice that I'm simple minded !
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: Dying of old age is about as exciting a prospect as suicide by cigarettes.
Well said.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Not really true. In the last century there were over 100 million deaths attributed to atheists. Far in excess of what any religion has ever done.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain ping
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Certainly Stalin and Mao killed their tens of millions last century, but both instances involved far more than religious belief or not. But those communist regimes were atheistic and evil. Perhaps I should say "no one in America will want to kill you faster than an insulted Christian."
I realize now you did not infer what I imagined, the first time I read your statement.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain That one sure slipped my mind, a very good point!!
Yes, I should have carved out the godless commie bastards in China and USSR!
"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man...In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort, which is indeed quite different from the religiosity of someone more naive." [Einstein]
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain My favorite by Einstein "What humanity owes to personalities like Buddha, Moses, and Jesus ranks for me higher than all the achievements of the inquiring and constructive mind."
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain 
#2. To: intotheabyss (#0)
Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest?
#3. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#4. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#5. To: robin, intotheabyss (#2)
The traditional answer I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday. Which as a child bothered me, because I only counted 2 days.
#6. To: robin (#2)
I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday
#7. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#8. To: Paul Revere (#3)
The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th.
#9. To: Destro (#5)
they make up their religious traditions as they go along.
#10. To: bluedogtxn (#4)
Christ changed the covenant regarding the law
#11. To: Paul Revere (#3)
Why? Because Christianity was created in about 320 CE by the Emperor Constantine, who worshiped the sun god, Sol Invictus, and much of the church dogma is aimed at honoring that.
#12. To: Destro (#5)
Like going to a hotel where they charge the sign out day as a full day.
#13. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#14. To: echo5sierra (#7)
Jesus was referring to his fulfilling the law in our place. He fulfilled the law perfectly, thus the law could be done away with. Back up one verse (which is always a good thing to do anyways). Jesus says he is not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. The law and the sacrifices were all pointing to him.
#15. To: intotheabyss (#10)
#16. To: Ada (#12)
The women arose before sunrise and found the tomb empty.
#17. To: robin (#15)
In general we're under Grace, not the OT Law.
#18. To: intotheabyss, echo5sierra (#14)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
#19. To: intotheabyss (#17)
I think it's universally recognized as Saturday.
#20. To: Destro (#18)
(Edited)
The same Jesus that broke the law when he did not allow an adulteress to be stoned to death?
#21. To: intotheabyss (#0)
Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest?
#22. To: Arator (#20)
In other words, he called their attention to what the whole Torah requires (for example, that none may be convicted and put to death without the testimony of two witnesses, etc.). As none had abided by Torah in (almost) stoning this woman, none could with a clear conscience, when called out, cast the first stone.
#23. To: Arator (#20)
You are a Christian, right? Don't you know (and believe) this?
#24. To: Paul Revere (#3)
The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th.
#25. To: Ada (#8)
Actually the days don't start getting longer until around January 4
#26. To: Destro (#11)
Protestant garbage.
#27. To: ... (#24)
(Edited)
#28. To: Paul Revere (#26)
Another Papist fool, I see.
#29. To: Destro (#28)
#30. To: Paul Revere (#29)
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
#31. To: Destro (#30)
#32. To: Destro (#23)
The problem with you is that the you forget Jesus was not a Christian - he came to live fully under the law - then after Jesus conquered death he set out his apostles to spread the New Covenant with all humanity.
#33. To: intotheabyss (#14)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
#34. To: bluedogtxn (#33)
Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands.
#35. To: intotheabyss, All (#0)
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
#36. To: Ada (#12)
#37. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#38. To: Diana (#35)
Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
#39. To: rowdee (#38)
Levels -
#40. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#41. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#42. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#40)
(Edited)
#43. To: Zipporah (#42)
#44. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#43)
(Edited)
#45. To: intotheabyss (#0)
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#46. To: Zipporah (#44)
#47. To: Zipporah (#41)
Jesus was and IS the fulfillment of the Law
#48. To: noone222 (#47)
#49. To: Diana (#35)
What is a jot and what is a tittle?
#50. To: robin (#15)
I was unaware there is a Jewish "New Covenant";
#51. To: Neil McIver (#22)
I've heard it claimed that what he was writing in the sand during the time they were about to stone her may have been the sins they all committed, and they realized it was hypocritical for them to stone her when they had their own sins.
#52. To: noone222 (#47)
Many Old Testament scriptures relate that believers are to keep the seventh day Sabbath (forever it says) as a sign between them and God. And I don't want to get into a dispute about it either, but the above analysis of the Law being fulfilled by Jesus doesn't meet the "forever" requirement. The temple veil being torn and representing the end of the law requires some interpretation.
#53. To: rowdee (#52)
(Edited)
#54. To: noone222 (#53)
#55. To: noone222 (#53)
#56. To: Neil McIver, robin (#21)
#57. To: Paul Revere (#26)
which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization.
#58. To: intotheabyss (#57)
To: Paul Revere
#59. To: bluedogtxn, Paul Revere (#33)
The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case.
#60. To: intotheabyss (#59)
#61. To: rowdee, robin, Destro, Arator, Neil McIver, Paul Revere, ..., Ada, bluedogtxn, lodwick, Diana, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, (#37)
Once Christ died, the Law was done. We no longer have to do this sacrifice stuff...the price was already paid.
#62. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, Paul Revere (#40)
The Jews, the REAL Jews, not the ZIONISTS, worship and recognize Saturday as the Sabbath.
#63. To: rowdee, robin, Destro, Arator, Neil McIver, Paul Revere, ..., Ada, bluedogtxn, lodwick, Diana, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, (#61)
#64. To: intotheabyss (#62)
#65. To: noone222 (#53)
My feeling about Sabbath is that God only has to say for ever once, but repeated the importance of Sabbath observance from the period of creation throughout all Old Testament Scripture. I don't think God ever said not to do it. I think there may be exceptions that are acceptable, but the wholesale change from Saturday to SUNday is a man made exception that is a corruption of what God described as a sign between thee and Me" for ever.
#66. To: Paul Revere (#64)
#67. To: intotheabyss (#61)
#68. To: Diana (#35)
This part is quite a puzzler, think I'll look it up.
#69. To: rowdee (#67)
The Law was more than the 10 Commandments.
#70. To: Destro, Robin, intotheabyss, echo5sierra (#5)
(Edited)
Yes, he was dead Friday, the Sabbath and for part of Sunday when he arose.
Friday - night
Saturday - day
Saturday - night
Sunday - day
3 days and 2 nights. What happened to Sunday night??? Oh well, I guess the Messiah never was one to be too big on prophesies or telling the truth.
#71. To: AnyNameOriginal (#68)
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
#72. To: innieway (#71)
(Edited)
#73. To: AnyNameOriginal (#68)
#74. To: innieway (#70)
#75. To: innieway, noone222 (#70)
DAY 1 DAY2 DAY 3 THU
starts at
sundown on Wed.THU
ends at sundownFRI
FRI
ends at
sundownSAT
starts at sundown on Fri. SAT
ends at sundownSUN
starts at sundown on Sat.SUN
ends at sundown Night Day Night Day Night Day Night Day
#76. To: rowdee (#67)
The Law was more than the 10 Commandments. With the New Covenant, God's laws are written in our 'hearts' (our consciences).
#77. To: AnyNameOriginal, rowdee, Diana, innieway, noone222, robin (#68)
Jesus says that until all pass away and fulfilled (and it is not his death and resurrection on the cross) nothing should be taken from the commandments (10 and otherwise).
#78. To: intotheabyss (#66)
The really sad thing is so many good meaning people buy into some of these issues.
#79. To: Paul Revere (#78)
But if one is going to read the text and declare what is to be done based upon the text, it's clearly SATURDAY, not Sunday that Christians should stay home and not do any work or such.
#80. To: intotheabyss (#79)
#81. To: Paul Revere (#80)
delusional self-righteousness.
#82. To: All (#81)
#83. To: intotheabyss (#81)
Absolutely.
#84. To: intotheabyss (#82)
Hell, I'm convinced he would be shunned more by the so called Christians today than he was by the public at large 2000 years ago.
#85. To: Paul Revere (#83)
If Jesus returned today and did not announce himself, simply started teaching as he always did, he'd be ARRESTED at almost every Protestant church in America, as well as at every Catholic Church, and every Mormon church.
#86. To: bluedogtxn (#84)
his eschewing of material wealth,
#87. To: intotheabyss (#86)
his eschewing of material wealth,
#88. To: bluedogtxn (#87)
For myself, I'm about tired of the uber-rich using their money to subvert our democracy. I'm starting to favor a Russian style revolution over an American style one.
#89. To: intotheabyss (#88)
Amen! (This Amen may be all I need to do to end up on the red/blue? list for my encampment when the Feds push for their full agenda. You aren't a provocateur are you?)
#90. To: bluedogtxn (#89)
#91. To: intotheabyss (#90)
Mad as a hatter I'd venture to say.
#92. To: bluedogtxn (#91)
#93. To: intotheabyss (#92)
I'm really the easter bunny.
#94. To: intotheabyss (#79)
#95. To: noone222 (#94)
#96. To: robin (#75)
The Jewish day was measured from sun down to sun down.
The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day.1 "Since the Jews reckoned part of a day as a full day, the “three days and three nights” could permit a Friday crucifixion.
#97. To: innieway (#96)
The solution is simple when we learn that according to Jewish custom any part of a day, however small, is included as part of a full day.1
#98. To: bluedogtxn (#84)
If JC showed up today, complete with the miracles, his contempt for self- righteous folks, his embracing of non-violence and his eschewing of material wealth, make no mistake. He would be crucified all over again.
#99. To: intotheabyss (#77)
You can also find several references to people being saved in Revelations based on their "faithfullness to the COMMANDMENTS".
#100. To: Paul Revere (#80)
I'm still waiting to meet the Christian that follows these:
#101. To: AnyNameOriginal (#100)
(Edited)
#102. To: christine (#73)
hello, abbynormal, welcome to 4. ;)
#103. To: AnyNameOriginal (#100)
(Edited)
#104. To: Paul Revere (#101)
Here's your Jesus, the fictional hero with a dozen different names
#105. To: AnyNameOriginal (#104)
(Edited)
#106. To: Paul Revere (#105)
#107. To: noone222 (#106)
Callous disregard for others beliefs isn't expedient, it more likely serves to inflate ones ego at the expense of unifying a populace that really needs to align against evil, now.
#108. To: noone222 (#106)
#109. To: Paul Revere (#108)
#110. To: bluedogtxn (#84)
If JC showed up today, complete with the miracles, his contempt for self- righteous folks, his embracing of non-violence and his eschewing of material wealth, make no mistake. He would be crucified all over again.
#111. To: Diana (#109)
#112. To: Paul Revere (#111)
#113. To: Diana (#112)
#114. To: Diana (#112)
(Edited)
#115. To: Arator (#107)
(Edited)
#116. To: noone222 (#106)
we're all immersed in an evil situation that continues to worsen daily. It'd be unusual if people didn't seek spiritual solutions in times like these, and everyone doesn't learn at the same time or at the same rate of speed.
#117. To: Paul Revere (#108)
No one will kill you faster than an insulted Christian, which really tells the whole story, doesn't it?
#118. To: Diana (#117)
#119. To: intotheabyss (#117)
#120. To: Paul Revere (#119)
#121. To: intotheabyss, Paul Revere (#117)
In the last century there were over 100 million deaths attributed to atheists. Far in excess of what any religion has ever done.
#122. To: intotheabyss (#120)
#123. To: Paul Revere (#122)
#124. To: Paul Revere (#122)
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