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Title: Biblical Question
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Published: Apr 20, 2007
Author: KJV
Post Date: 2007-04-20 14:35:03 by intotheabyss
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Views: 1854
Comments: 124
I was wondering about Mathew 5:18-19. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. When you read the 4Th commandment it says: KJV - 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. My question is: Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest? When the bible seems to me to be very clear on this. In Jesus's own words: (one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
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#1. To: Paul Revere, YertleTurtle, gengis gandhi, Eoghan, robin, lodwick, Diana, BTP Holdings (#0)
Ping
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain That's what the 7th Day Adventist church is for, people who get excited about this one. The traditional answer I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday. Which as a child bothered me, because I only counted 2 days.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
Why? Because Christianity was created in about 320 CE by the Emperor Constantine, who worshiped the sun god, Sol Invictus, and much of the church dogma is aimed at honoring that. The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th. The story of Jesus is one that has many roots, and parts were added to target specific audiences.
The Sabbath was made for men, not God. It's part of the Law, and Christ changed the covenant regarding the law, and instituted a new covenant, with the understanding that no one can follow the law.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
Yes, he was dead Friday, the Sabbath and for part of Sunday when he arose. Like going to a hotel where they charge the sign out day as a full day. Mostly Protestants who forgot Christian history have to re-learn all this stuff over again since they make up their religious traditions as they go along.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
But it says: Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law.(till heaven and earth pass is quite a long time for this law to be enforced without a change (one jot or one tittle) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandment she shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven What's the law? 4Th Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy Are you suggesting a change i.e. one jot or one tittle?
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain In verse 18, Jesus was referring to his fulfilling the law in our place. He fulfilled the law perfectly, thus the law could be done away with. Back up one verse (which is always a good thing to do anyways). Jesus says he is not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. The law and the sacrifices were all pointing to him. The smearing of the blood on the mantels for Passover made the shape of the cross. Sacrificing the firstborn lamb without blemish. Everything points to Jesus. As far as the first day of the week goes, that was the day Jesus was resurrected. He was crucified on Friday, hence the name Good Friday, and rose on Sunday. Also, in Acts 20:7 the disciples came together to break bread, and in the KJV it seems like they did this regularly, Paul came and preached to them and kept going until midnight. Paul says in 1Cor 16:2 to lay store offerings for the church on the first day of the week.
Actually the days don't start getting longer until around January 4.
I am finding this to be true.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Can you show me where this happened?
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain Protestant garbage. Christianity existed before Constantine liberated the faith and legalized it and embraced it. The Orthodox church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th - it was a date selected to honor his birth with the added bonus it was a day already celebrated. Like pushing all the presidents in one day because its the only dates available, etc. The Protestants who have a beef about Rome make up some story to make it seem they are the true Christians and we get Da Vinci Code crap as religion.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
The day started at sunrise. The women arose before sunrise and found the tomb empty. Unless you want to argue that the sun arose during their journey.
Here's a book you might find interesting that will answer your query in-depth: Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Then why doe he say: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. If we no longer needed to follow it.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain I've never used wiki for a religious source, let's see how this works out. Nothing here on 4th Commandment, but plenty on New Convenant. I was unaware there is a Jewish "New Covenant"; I see it got top billing on wiki ;P http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant In general we're under Grace, not the OT Law. Romans 6 (the whole chapter deals with grace vs law) But none of this really answers your orginal question. Let me ask you one. Who decides which day of the week is the Sabbath? "The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
What time they woke up is not the time they went to the empty tomb, Nimord. Or do you think unaccompanied women in the Middle East would feel free to walk at night to the graveyard?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Let me ask you one. Who decides which day of the week is the Sabbath? Look he said in his own words (in the new testament): "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven" I think it's universally recognized as Saturday.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The same Jesus that broke the law when he did not allow an adulteress to be stoned to death?
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
It is, and Christmas is universally acknowledged to be Dec 25th, but Christ was probably born during the summer months, because the shepherds were in the fields. The point being, what is important is that there is a day, not exactly which day.
"The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes nor between parties either — but right through the human heart." — Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
That's a gross mischaracterization. Jesus said let he who is without sin cast the first stone. And none did. In other words, he called their attention to what the whole Torah requires (for example, that none may be convicted and put to death without the testimony of two witnesses, etc.). As none had abided by Torah in (almost) stoning this woman, none could with a clear conscience, when called out, cast the first stone. In this, Jesus did not violate Torah. He upheld it. If Jesus had not kept Torah perfectly, he would not be qualified to atone for the sins of this world. You are a Christian, right? Don't you know (and believe) this?
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
In Europe, Sunday is the seventh day as calandars list monday first (day of the moon). Which one is first or last is pretty much relative. Also, all the names of the days of the week are basically pagen in origin, like the planet names. The bible, of course, doesn't refer to any weekday names by pagen names at all.
I've heard it claimed that what he was writing in the sand during the time they were about to stone her may have been the sins they all committed, and they realized it was hypocritical for them to stone her when they had their own sins. As the only one there who was without sin, Jesus was qualified to kill her, but showed mercy.
Oh, I see. The problem with you is that the you forget Jesus was not a Christian - he came to live fully under the law - then after Jesus conquered death he set out his apostles to spread the New Covenant with all humanity.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
There is a theory that this is where Yule, the 12 Days of Christmas, comes from. If you are taking a neolithic sun shot with a couple of aligned stones and no clocks its hard to tell exactly when the solstice happens. What you can do however is watch for the reversal of the points of both sunrise and sunset. After a week or so you can be sure that the sun has passed throuh its northen most point and is again heading south. The period of uncertainty is the holiday period.
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Actually, the days DO start getting longer after Dec 22nd.
Christianity existed before Constantine liberated the faith and legalized it and embraced it. The Orthodox church never claimed Jesus was born on the 25th - it was a date selected to honor his birth with the added bonus it was a day already celebrated. Like pushing all the presidents in one day because its the only dates available, etc. The Protestants who have a beef about Rome make up some story to make it seem they are the true Christians and we get Da Vinci Code crap as religion. Another Papist fool, I see. The Catholic Church was created in about 320 CE. There was no such animal before, and certainly no Pope. The Catholic church was a state religion, which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization. I could care less about your shrill comments regarding Protestants. They have nothing to do with this, which is a matter of history. The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world.
Christmas and New Year's are all the same celebration in ancient cultures. They correctly recognized that in the "heavens" the "sun" was their "savior," the thing that brought them warmth, light, and life. They observed the heavens, observed the stars, the sun, and the moon, and saw how they had cycles. Harvest came in late fall, and winter set in as the days got shorter. Christmas day is the day that the sun begins its track back against the sky. It was therefore the "sun's" birthday. Seeing that the sun had begun its journey against the sky, and towards longer days, gave the ancients new hope for the new year. And that's why we celebrate the birthday of Jesus on December 25th. The story of Jesus is an ancient allegory, and it has been told several other places BEFORE the story of Jesus appeared. Astrotheology & Shamanism http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMxzwiP5ocs here: Jesus vs Horus
I am not Catholic.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
I did not defend the Catholic church I defended history - as someone who has read the original histories of the period in school in the original Koine Greek. The church was already a force in the east where the bishops had already set up parallel institutions. The emperor called a council to unify the church and correct dogmas that had drifted due to isolation between Christian communities during the underground outlaw years of the church. The emperor was already shifting his empire from West to east and Christians in the east were already majorities in some places. The West was still mostly pagan still.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus. He used Christianity to consolidate his power, and he used the Catholic church, which he created, to do it. You can beat your bishops all you want, but they had little power until he gave it to them. Of course, the bishops had almost nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Like most church figures, they were men looking after themselves. But I do love hearing guys like you telling their religious fairy tales. Now run along, Tinker Bell.
I forgot he was not a Christian? It was you who claimed that he sinned by violating Torah, not I. Some Christians think Torah was abrogated at (or even before) the cross. But, as in the passage quoted atop this thread, Jesus said otherwise. So, which one of us forgot he is not a Torah-rejecting (3rd-century) Christian but a 1st-century Torah-keeping Jew? I think it was the one who said he was a Torah-breaker.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Where does the guy wind up in that passage? He shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Under the law where does he wind up? Not in Heaven at all. You can break the laws and still go to heaven. Prior to Christ, everyone stood condemned by the law. EVERYONE. Nobody was not condemned. The Highest standing judge and the lowest pedophile were equally condemned by the law. Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands. And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it. Amen. Very well put.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This part is quite a puzzler, think I'll look it up. For one thing, I don't quite understand "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law...". What is a jot and what is a tittle? Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
A jewish day went/goes from sundown to sundown. IIRC, its been suggested that it ran/runs roughly 6pm to 6pm. Their Sabbath begans at sundown Friday evening and runs til sundown Saturday evening.
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross; therefore, the law had not been fulfilled as he stated these words. Hence, the law was still in force and effect. Once he went to the cross and was resurrected, the Law was complete. The law had been established to show man that he could not keep God's laws of his own volition. The sacrifices were established so that they could grasp the idea that something/someone had to die because the penalty for death was sin. They physically had to put their hands on the animal to be sacrificed in order to bring home the point that someone/something OTHER THAN THEMSELVES was paying the penalty. This is shadow or type or pattern--I can't remember the correct terminology. But Christ was the perfect unblemished sacrifice THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD for payment/ransom of sin's curse, or death. Recall that Christ said even to think the thought was as bad as doing the deed--that makes sin even easier to understand and to realize none of us were/are perfect or can do perfect obedience to God's will. Once Christ died, the Law was done. We no longer have to do this sacrifice stuff...the price was already paid. If the Law is not dead, then a bunch of people who don't believe it are really in deep doo because of all these years they've not followed every single jot and tittle nuanced meaning that could be arranged/changed by usage in the laws set down to Moses. By rejecting Christ and what He did, the unbelievers are under the condemnation of the Law which is spiritual death.
The old manuscripts do designate 'heaven' as 'heavenS'. I haven't come across any details of various levels, but that certainly doesn't mean they are not found in Scriptures--I just haven't come across it yet. I do believe there are 'levels', if you want to call them that.....perhaps based on the degree of your 'rewards'.........for doing the various things Jesus told us to do, i.e., care for the helpless, widows, children, those in need....live a godly life, praise and worship God, etc. Pray and read Scriptures to enlarge your knowledge and understanding. Faithing. Those sorts of things. I believe that some do lots more than others and their 'special rewards' will be greater than others, still. I could be wrong, but I"m not worried about it. It doesn't figure into what I believe, how I faith, or the things I do as Jesus said to do. :)
Jesus hinted at it with the parable of the talents, and Paul, when he said that he'd "rather be a gate-keeper in the House of the Lord..." There may be lots of other examples, but those two, popped to mind.
WHO CHANGED THE SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY? http://jbrooks2.tripod.com/WHO_CHANGED_THE_SABBATH_SATURDAY_TO_SUNDAY.html The Jews, the REAL Jews, not the ZIONISTS, worship and recognize Saturday as the Sabbath. Who are the lairs?
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
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#2. To: intotheabyss (#0)
Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest?
#3. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#4. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#5. To: robin, intotheabyss (#2)
The traditional answer I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday. Which as a child bothered me, because I only counted 2 days.
#6. To: robin (#2)
I've heard is that Christ arose on the 3rd day, Sunday
#7. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#8. To: Paul Revere (#3)
The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th.
#9. To: Destro (#5)
they make up their religious traditions as they go along.
#10. To: bluedogtxn (#4)
Christ changed the covenant regarding the law
#11. To: Paul Revere (#3)
Why? Because Christianity was created in about 320 CE by the Emperor Constantine, who worshiped the sun god, Sol Invictus, and much of the church dogma is aimed at honoring that.
#12. To: Destro (#5)
Like going to a hotel where they charge the sign out day as a full day.
#13. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#14. To: echo5sierra (#7)
Jesus was referring to his fulfilling the law in our place. He fulfilled the law perfectly, thus the law could be done away with. Back up one verse (which is always a good thing to do anyways). Jesus says he is not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. The law and the sacrifices were all pointing to him.
#15. To: intotheabyss (#10)
#16. To: Ada (#12)
The women arose before sunrise and found the tomb empty.
#17. To: robin (#15)
In general we're under Grace, not the OT Law.
#18. To: intotheabyss, echo5sierra (#14)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
#19. To: intotheabyss (#17)
I think it's universally recognized as Saturday.
#20. To: Destro (#18)
(Edited)
The same Jesus that broke the law when he did not allow an adulteress to be stoned to death?
#21. To: intotheabyss (#0)
Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest?
#22. To: Arator (#20)
In other words, he called their attention to what the whole Torah requires (for example, that none may be convicted and put to death without the testimony of two witnesses, etc.). As none had abided by Torah in (almost) stoning this woman, none could with a clear conscience, when called out, cast the first stone.
#23. To: Arator (#20)
You are a Christian, right? Don't you know (and believe) this?
#24. To: Paul Revere (#3)
The sun "dies" on Dec 22nd, the shortest day of the year, and is born again on Dec 25th.
#25. To: Ada (#8)
Actually the days don't start getting longer until around January 4
#26. To: Destro (#11)
Protestant garbage.
#27. To: ... (#24)
(Edited)
#28. To: Paul Revere (#26)
Another Papist fool, I see.
#29. To: Destro (#28)
#30. To: Paul Revere (#29)
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
#31. To: Destro (#30)
#32. To: Destro (#23)
The problem with you is that the you forget Jesus was not a Christian - he came to live fully under the law - then after Jesus conquered death he set out his apostles to spread the New Covenant with all humanity.
#33. To: intotheabyss (#14)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
#34. To: bluedogtxn (#33)
Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands.
#35. To: intotheabyss, All (#0)
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
#36. To: Ada (#12)
#37. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#38. To: Diana (#35)
Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
#39. To: rowdee (#38)
Levels -
#40. To: intotheabyss (#0)
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