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Title: Biblical Question
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Published: Apr 20, 2007
Author: KJV
Post Date: 2007-04-20 14:35:03 by intotheabyss
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Views: 1881
Comments: 124
I was wondering about Mathew 5:18-19. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. When you read the 4Th commandment it says: KJV - 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. My question is: Why don't most churches worship on Saturday and why do most people feel compelled to use Sunday (the day of sun worshipers) as a day of worship and rest? When the bible seems to me to be very clear on this. In Jesus's own words: (one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven
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#29. To: Destro (#28)
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
I did not defend the Catholic church I defended history - as someone who has read the original histories of the period in school in the original Koine Greek. The church was already a force in the east where the bishops had already set up parallel institutions. The emperor called a council to unify the church and correct dogmas that had drifted due to isolation between Christian communities during the underground outlaw years of the church. The emperor was already shifting his empire from West to east and Christians in the east were already majorities in some places. The West was still mostly pagan still.
"The desire to rule is the mother of heresies." -- St. John Chrysostom
Constantine worshipped Sol Invictus. He used Christianity to consolidate his power, and he used the Catholic church, which he created, to do it. You can beat your bishops all you want, but they had little power until he gave it to them. Of course, the bishops had almost nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus. Like most church figures, they were men looking after themselves. But I do love hearing guys like you telling their religious fairy tales. Now run along, Tinker Bell.
I forgot he was not a Christian? It was you who claimed that he sinned by violating Torah, not I. Some Christians think Torah was abrogated at (or even before) the cross. But, as in the passage quoted atop this thread, Jesus said otherwise. So, which one of us forgot he is not a Torah-rejecting (3rd-century) Christian but a 1st-century Torah-keeping Jew? I think it was the one who said he was a Torah-breaker.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Where does the guy wind up in that passage? He shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Under the law where does he wind up? Not in Heaven at all. You can break the laws and still go to heaven. Prior to Christ, everyone stood condemned by the law. EVERYONE. Nobody was not condemned. The Highest standing judge and the lowest pedophile were equally condemned by the law. Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands. And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it.
It is not a Justice System. It is just a system.
And we pray and try to abide by the law, knowing that we can't ever really do it. Amen. Very well put.
5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. This part is quite a puzzler, think I'll look it up. For one thing, I don't quite understand "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law...". What is a jot and what is a tittle? Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
A jewish day went/goes from sundown to sundown. IIRC, its been suggested that it ran/runs roughly 6pm to 6pm. Their Sabbath begans at sundown Friday evening and runs til sundown Saturday evening.
Jesus had not yet gone to the cross; therefore, the law had not been fulfilled as he stated these words. Hence, the law was still in force and effect. Once he went to the cross and was resurrected, the Law was complete. The law had been established to show man that he could not keep God's laws of his own volition. The sacrifices were established so that they could grasp the idea that something/someone had to die because the penalty for death was sin. They physically had to put their hands on the animal to be sacrificed in order to bring home the point that someone/something OTHER THAN THEMSELVES was paying the penalty. This is shadow or type or pattern--I can't remember the correct terminology. But Christ was the perfect unblemished sacrifice THAT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO GOD for payment/ransom of sin's curse, or death. Recall that Christ said even to think the thought was as bad as doing the deed--that makes sin even easier to understand and to realize none of us were/are perfect or can do perfect obedience to God's will. Once Christ died, the Law was done. We no longer have to do this sacrifice stuff...the price was already paid. If the Law is not dead, then a bunch of people who don't believe it are really in deep doo because of all these years they've not followed every single jot and tittle nuanced meaning that could be arranged/changed by usage in the laws set down to Moses. By rejecting Christ and what He did, the unbelievers are under the condemnation of the Law which is spiritual death.
The old manuscripts do designate 'heaven' as 'heavenS'. I haven't come across any details of various levels, but that certainly doesn't mean they are not found in Scriptures--I just haven't come across it yet. I do believe there are 'levels', if you want to call them that.....perhaps based on the degree of your 'rewards'.........for doing the various things Jesus told us to do, i.e., care for the helpless, widows, children, those in need....live a godly life, praise and worship God, etc. Pray and read Scriptures to enlarge your knowledge and understanding. Faithing. Those sorts of things. I believe that some do lots more than others and their 'special rewards' will be greater than others, still. I could be wrong, but I"m not worried about it. It doesn't figure into what I believe, how I faith, or the things I do as Jesus said to do. :)
Jesus hinted at it with the parable of the talents, and Paul, when he said that he'd "rather be a gate-keeper in the House of the Lord..." There may be lots of other examples, but those two, popped to mind.
WHO CHANGED THE SABBATH SATURDAY TO SUNDAY? http://jbrooks2.tripod.com/WHO_CHANGED_THE_SABBATH_SATURDAY_TO_SUNDAY.html The Jews, the REAL Jews, not the ZIONISTS, worship and recognize Saturday as the Sabbath. Who are the lairs?
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Well .. Jesus was and IS the fulfillment of the Law.. "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.".. He fulfilled the law..the law is no longer for those in Christ written as it's said on stone tablets but written in the hearts of those who are called by His name.. Therefore, the Sabbath (part of the law) is fulfilled in Jesus .. remember when the veil was torn when Jesus died? Men no longer had to go to the temple etc to be with God.. but the Spirit was released.. SO if we are in Christ Jesus.. we are keeping the Sabbath for He IS the Sabbath. It's not a day or a rule..
And why Sunday some may ask? Sunday is the 'eighth' day.. so to speak and if you study.. the eighth day is mentioned numerous times in scripture.. the day Abraham was commanded to circumsize boys.. that is dedicate them to God..which was a blood covenant.. all foretelling of the blood covenant we have with God through the blood of Christ.
http://www.worldslastchance.com/
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Thanks for the link but I'm of the opinion that the bible isnt to be read like the newspaper.. often some who have these type theories forget about 2,000 years of history..consider what has taken place in that 2,000 years.. not just the since the 1800s.
The Bible also says to come together on the first day of the week and partake of the Lord's supper. The Sabbath is still a day of rest and it's still Saturday, but Sunday is when Christians are commanded to assemble.
God is always good! The Forgotten Commandment
"You can not save the Constitution by destroying it."
Many Old Testament scriptures relate that believers are to keep the seventh day Sabbath (forever it says) as a sign between them and God. And I don't want to get into a dispute about it either, but the above analysis of the Law being fulfilled by Jesus doesn't meet the "forever" requirement. The temple veil being torn and representing the end of the law requires some interpretation. Keep the Sabbath forever as a sign between ye and me is straight forward and stands without reference to interpretation. This has been an issue for debate for a long time and by many ... someone is right and someone is wrong.
14th Amendment / Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. [You have the right to remain silent, shut up and pay your taxes peasants ... hehehehehe].
Sorry I disagree.. in a way.. of course we are to keep the Sabbath.. but not in the way you are meaning.. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.. therefore if we are 'in' Him .. everyday is the Sabbath .. we are keeping the Sabbath if we are called by His name.
Here ya go (from wikipedia): In the Greek original translated as English "jot and tittle" is found iota and keraia.[1] Iota is the smallest letter of the Greek alphabet (¹), but since only capitals were used at the time the Greek New Testament was written (™), it probably represents the Hebrew or Aramaic yodh (•7;) which is the smallest letter of the Hebrew and Aramaic alphabets. "Keraia" is a hook or serif, possibly accents in Greek but more likely hooks on Hebrew or Aramaic letters, (”9;) versus (•9;), or additional marks such as crowns (as Vulgate apex) found in the Torah, the Five Books of Moses, which are the first five books of the Jewish Bible. A keraia is also used in Greek numerals.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
The first mention of "new covenant" was in the "Old" Testament, not the "New", by the Jewish prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 31:31). He specifically says that God will make a "new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah."
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
It's too bad the NT writer didn't share that particular detail with us. We can only guess at what he wrote, but whatever he wrote, was enough to stop a lynch mob cold. Powerful stuff, indeed.
Check out my blog, America, the Bushieful.
Under the Law, a sinner could never approach or be in the presence of God....the veil between the Holy Place and Most Holy of Holies blocking them. Even the sacrifice given didn't buy access. The High Priest himself was a sinner and had to make sacrifice for himself before he could even take the nations' sacrifice into the Holy of Holies. OTOH, Christ fulfilled completely the Law--he obeyed it heart and mind, and he became the sacrifice to cover or atone (die for) all sins, past, present, and future. At his death, the veil in the temple was torn apart which meant that individuals how had access to God through the Messiah. God looks at us through how he views Christ. If the Law was still active, it would void what Christ has done. The Law was a type or picture or pattern of what was to come with the new covenant. The Israelites didn't obey the old, just rejecting GOd as their God; and hence, He would reject them as His people--for a time. I don't believe it is permanent rejection--at least not right now. The 'old' doesn't replace the 'new'; it is the reverse. IIRC, it is Hebrews Chapter 8 that discusses the old decaying away because of the new covenant....and speaking of the Messiah in the process.
There are very viable scriptural based conclusions that can be drawn to support both sides of this New/Old Covenant equation. 1st. One should ask whether scriptures were susceptible to corruption by anyone with an agenda. The answer is obvious and Constantine made it blatantly apparent in 325 AD. [Then we should consider whether the possibility of corruption was greater with respect to the Old Testament scriptures or the New Testament scriptures. When New Testament Scripture causes God to be a liar, shortsighted or less than perfect they should be investigated. All scripture should be reconcilable with other scripture ... precept upon precept, line upon line. My studies have led me to think that the Old Testament scriptures had been around far too long and there were too many copies available for them to be corrupted to a large degree. Jesus quoted from Isaiah, the Book of Isaiah was found completely intact at Qum Ram (Dead Sea Scrolls). No such evidence has ever been found to support the existence of the Book of Esther. That isn't to say the potential for their existence is impossible but I believe it is improbable and that Esther is a fraud. 2nd. Each of us is responsible individually for our own beliefs, and we can realize these through study and commentary of others. I think one lifetime is insufficient for accomplishing a clear and perfect understanding of God, God's Will, or our relevance to the equation. Yet, knowing this I am somewhat consumed by the quest for a better understanding of these things while others find the whole subject irrelevant. My feeling about Sabbath is that God only has to say for ever once, but repeated the importance of Sabbath observance from the period of creation throughout all Old Testament Scripture. I don't think God ever said not to do it. I think there may be exceptions that are acceptable, but the wholesale change from Saturday to SUNday is a man made exception that is a corruption of what God described as a sign between thee and Me" for ever. We are informed through scripture that men are liars, that they will make merchandise of our souls, that one will think to change the days and times of God etc., yet we allow men to alter our mindset through interpretation and for the sake of convenience. We go along to get along and that's exactly why this country is so fucked up. A little change here, a little change there and the next thing you know the country has been bankrupted by a bunch of crooked bankers that convinced us to quit the standard proscribed by God which is EQUAL WEIGHTS and MEASURES. Do I have all the answers ? Nope. Is the Sabbath Saturday ? Yep. And I have developed a system for comprehending things for myself that has held up pretty well for me. When comprehension of a subject requires miles of legalese and commentary it's corrupted. If it is straight forward and honest without the need to decipher and twist interpretation it's more likely true. It's K.I.S.S. for God's children. [Keep it simple stupid]. The importance of the TRUST factor can never be over-estimated. When we truly place 100% TRUST in God rather than a 50-50 split with man (government or preaching prostitutes), just in case God don't exist, we show our true colors and dis-belief. Until God's children stand up on their own two feet in opposition to every act against the laws of God they are serving a false god and living in fear ... when His instruction is for us to NEVER fear MEN who can only destroy the physical body. I don't know that this response will solve anything at all. I wanted to respond without offending anyones sensibilities because I'm fully capable of being wrong. I try to limit the risk when it comes to offending the Creator of the Universe, and I think Sunday worship is offensive to the Creator because He said so plainly. Many will disagree, and my response is simply, OK. Edited Comment: Until we realize the righteousness of God's Laws and statutes and walk in them according to His law, we walk in utter blindness being led around by the nose completely controlled by that GREAT DECEIVER dressed up like a banker, preacher or a politician that acts as an agent of satan. We are the proximate cause of our own destruction because we ignore the Laws of God in order to bow our knee to (corruption) man.
14th Amendment / Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. [You have the right to remain silent, shut up and pay your taxes peasants ... hehehehehe].
By and large, we agree. And I thank you for taking the time for laying our your position. I really agree that it takes more than a lifetime, or if ever, that we come to a complete understanding of God and His will. Many times as I do daily study, I have this big sense of urgency--as though I can't take it all in fast enough or soon enough. Thanks again for responding.....more to chew on.
Good thoughts - thanks.
I'm not really worried which day is first or last on a calendar. The 4th commandment says: "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." And most scholars agree that the Sabbath is Saturday
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world. I tend to agree.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization. The Pope is a Nazi, and the Catholic Church is the largest crime institution in the world. I tend to agree. Thanks. I don't how anyone can read the teachings of Jesus and think the Catholic church has anything to do with his teachings. As a crime organization, it spans 17 centuries of stealing from the poor and fellating the powerful.
That may be true. Although that does not diminish the case that Saturday is the day intended for rest and worship. There is an official Vatican document basically bragging about the pontiff’s power since the Catholic Church was able to change that day to Sunday.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain It's SUNday because Constantine worshipped Sol Invictis, the sun god. That's also why Dec 25th is the birth of Jesus. It's the day the ancients believed the sun was astronomically reborn each year.
There is nothing about sacrifice in the 10 commandments. And I'm sure "Thou shall not kill" as well as many other commandments are still quite valid. In Revelations: "those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ will be saved?????????????? We all know as well as Jesus knew that Revelations would occur AFTER his death/resurrection. So Jesus knew the commandment were still valid, remember - "Till heaven and earth pass" I think a lot of people have trouble seeing the simple logic in this due to the Dogma they have been fed for so many years by the Baal churches.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. I'm glad to see some awake souls on this thread.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain What kind of worship does the Saviour call that which is not according to God's commandments? "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrine the commandments of men." Matt. 15:9
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain You're right. Let's see what else the Catholic church pushes that has no scriptural basis: 1. Idolizing and worshipping Mary 2. Making and using graven images for worship 3. Showing alms before men 4. Public prayer 5. Child baptism 6. Sunday as day of worship And it goes on and on ....
Excellent post.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The really sad thing is so many good meaning people buy into some of these issues.
It was a narrow escape. If the sheep had been created first, man would have been a plagiarism. -- Mark Twain No group of professionals meets except to conspire against the public at large. -- Mark Twain The Law was more than the 10 Commandments. With the New Covenant, God's laws are written in our 'hearts' (our consciences).
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Jesus says that until all pass away and fulfilled (and it is not his death and resurrection on the cross) nothing should be taken from the commandments (10 and otherwise). You can find the time in Revelations 21. Jesus had problems with people wanting to change the law to suit their needs, he jumped on hypocrites for changing the law that said if their children cursed their parents they should be put to death. The Hypocrites said basically, perhaps these children of ours would benefit them later and disobeyed the law. Harsh as it may sound, Jesus knew allowing children to curse parents would cause more problems than society could later stand (see how strained our society is now). We now all reap the results. People now days say it is ok to kill unborn innocent babies, it is ok to do this and that ect... Now days people preach that breaking the Sabbath is ok, Walmart shopping is more a convience now. People now days say Jesus made a new convenent with people, but it just ain't so. Yes, you can be saved, but you are still to practice the "law". Levels of heaven.... lol... don't get weird on me... just a word of "fine job there AbbyNormal" would be enough to last me the first 10,000 years in heaven.. but I am sure it takes 10,000 years before you get over how awesome the place is anyway and actually say something. Jesus wants us to do his will, and teaching others that the "law" is no more might get you a "least" award.
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#30. To: Paul Revere (#29)
Your defense of the Catholic Church makes you a Papist, whether you're a Catholic or not.
#31. To: Destro (#30)
#32. To: Destro (#23)
The problem with you is that the you forget Jesus was not a Christian - he came to live fully under the law - then after Jesus conquered death he set out his apostles to spread the New Covenant with all humanity.
#33. To: intotheabyss (#14)
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:
#34. To: bluedogtxn (#33)
Just as everyone today is condemned by the law. The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case. First we have to admit our guilt, then we put it in our lawyer's hands.
#35. To: intotheabyss, All (#0)
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
#36. To: Ada (#12)
#37. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#38. To: Diana (#35)
Also the part about he who be called least in the kingdom of Heaven and he who will be called great in the kingdom of Heaven sounds to me as if there are different levels of Heaven. I'm certainly no bible scholar though.
#39. To: rowdee (#38)
Levels -
#40. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#41. To: intotheabyss (#0)
#42. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#40)
(Edited)
#43. To: Zipporah (#42)
#44. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#43)
(Edited)
#45. To: intotheabyss (#0)
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#46. To: Zipporah (#44)
#47. To: Zipporah (#41)
Jesus was and IS the fulfillment of the Law
#48. To: noone222 (#47)
#49. To: Diana (#35)
What is a jot and what is a tittle?
#50. To: robin (#15)
I was unaware there is a Jewish "New Covenant";
#51. To: Neil McIver (#22)
I've heard it claimed that what he was writing in the sand during the time they were about to stone her may have been the sins they all committed, and they realized it was hypocritical for them to stone her when they had their own sins.
#52. To: noone222 (#47)
Many Old Testament scriptures relate that believers are to keep the seventh day Sabbath (forever it says) as a sign between them and God. And I don't want to get into a dispute about it either, but the above analysis of the Law being fulfilled by Jesus doesn't meet the "forever" requirement. The temple veil being torn and representing the end of the law requires some interpretation.
#53. To: rowdee (#52)
(Edited)
#54. To: noone222 (#53)
#55. To: noone222 (#53)
#56. To: Neil McIver, robin (#21)
#57. To: Paul Revere (#26)
which is why it's always been such a fascist and criminal organization.
#58. To: intotheabyss (#57)
To: Paul Revere
#59. To: bluedogtxn, Paul Revere (#33)
The new covenant says that even though we are condemned, we can obtain mercy, or leniency or grace if you will, by having our criminal defense attorney Christ take up our case.
#60. To: intotheabyss (#59)
#61. To: rowdee, robin, Destro, Arator, Neil McIver, Paul Revere, ..., Ada, bluedogtxn, lodwick, Diana, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, (#37)
Once Christ died, the Law was done. We no longer have to do this sacrifice stuff...the price was already paid.
#62. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, Paul Revere (#40)
The Jews, the REAL Jews, not the ZIONISTS, worship and recognize Saturday as the Sabbath.
#63. To: rowdee, robin, Destro, Arator, Neil McIver, Paul Revere, ..., Ada, bluedogtxn, lodwick, Diana, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, (#61)
#64. To: intotheabyss (#62)
#65. To: noone222 (#53)
My feeling about Sabbath is that God only has to say for ever once, but repeated the importance of Sabbath observance from the period of creation throughout all Old Testament Scripture. I don't think God ever said not to do it. I think there may be exceptions that are acceptable, but the wholesale change from Saturday to SUNday is a man made exception that is a corruption of what God described as a sign between thee and Me" for ever.
#66. To: Paul Revere (#64)
#67. To: intotheabyss (#61)
#68. To: Diana (#35)
This part is quite a puzzler, think I'll look it up.
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