This is very tough for me to listen to due to a hearing impairment. I wish someone had the presence of mind at the time to record the audio with a close mic on the speaker rather than from 60 feet away. :( Perhaps I can find a written transcript. Thanks for posting though.
OK, if this dust was really from the WTC towers then I would have think it conclusively proves that thermate was used to bring the towers down. The spheres from the dust have almost the exact same composition as one would expect from thermate reactions. This is a big if however. Proving it was indeed dust from the WTC towers collapse might be nearly impossible today.
God is always good! "It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
Proving that this particular sample was from the WTC might be tough, yes, but I am sure that there are official samples all over the place that can be called in for testing.
I wish I still had my baggie full of WTC dust that I gathered when I visited the site in October 01.
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
ROTFLOL! Jones is either a liar or a very sloppy researcher.
For example, he claimed this:
was a photo of slag from a pool of molten steel.
It is not.
It is a photo of a chunk of pancaked floors composed of sheet steel, reinforced concrete, rebar, wood and even paper debris with writing still legible on it. And there is photo after photo available proving this:
"Large pieces of debris, likened to meteorites by preservationists, are actually several floors of the towers compressed together as the buildings collapsed. Furniture, twisted metal, pipes, cords and even papers with legible type are visible. The pieces are kept in a humidity-controlled tent in Hangar 17 of Kennedy International Airport. (Photo by Lane Johnson)"
And this is only one of many dishonesties that ex-professor Jones has promoted with respect to 9/11. Here are some more:
He has claimed that "there is recorded eyewitness testimony of the molten metal pools under both Towers and WTC 7". That is absolutely false. Neither he or any in the 911 CT community have named an eyewitness who actually said there were "pools" of molten metal. And the source that Jones cited to back up his claim when he said that didn't name a single eyewitness. In fact, the word "pool" wasn't even mentioned in the article he cited.
With regards to the metal observed falling from the South Tower a short while before the collapse, Jones once claimed "the falling liquid appears consistently orange, not just orange in spots and certainly not silvery." As has been proven with a video of that event several times here at 4um, that is patently false. The material falling in the video is at times quite silvery in appearance. He also said "this molten metal, after falling approximately 150 meters (or yards) still retained a reddish orange color". That too is false, as the video showed quite clearly.
And to show how willing Jones is to alter his claimed evidence in order to prove his obsession, he recently switched to describing the falling material as follows: "yellow-white hot molten metal". He said "the molten aluminum would appear silvery due to high reflectivity combined with low emissivity, while molten iron would appear yellow (as seen in the video record.)" Notice that it is no longer orange or reddish-orange as he initially claimed. Now it's yellow or yellow-white. He changed the color because he learned that molten steel would have to be that color.
Perhaps he learned this from Thomas Eager of MIT who has been quoted (http://screwloosechange.blogspot.com/2007/04/steven-jones-to-appear-on-view.html ) saying "I think that the best way to refute the molten steel hypothesis is to inform people that molten metal is not the equal of molten steel. I have little doubt that some aluminum from the aircraft melted (about 1100 F for the alloys used and well within the capacity of the fires). As I noted in my article, some had suggested a thermite reaction and I indicated that the brilliant white light from burning Aluminum (about 4000 F) would have been unmistakable, but was not observed. The photos which I have seen by the conspiracy theorists which shows glowing metal, shows a red glow or a red orange glow. This is NOT molten steel. Anyone who has ever seen molten steel even in a small weld puddle knows that it it yellow white in color. As temperature increases we go from red (800-900 F) like a kitchen electric range heater (will not melt aluminum pots) to red orange (1100-1200 F- molten aluminum) to orange (1500-1800) to yellow (2000-2300) to yellow white (2500-2800- molten steel) to white (3000 F and above with increasing light intensity, like a tungsten incandescent light bulb.) If you put the temperatures into common sense colors that people know, then they can go back to Steven Jones' photos and anyone can conclude for themselves that the red or red orange glows that they say are molten steel is really just proof that they have never worked around molten metal. Welders, casters plumbers and many other professionals know the colors of molten metals and Prof Jones simply is an uninformed academic, who enjoys the attention that all of you are giving him."
I think Mr Eager is correct. Steven Jones is a DISHONEST sub-atomic particle physicist who wants the lime light. He didn't get it with another research topic he was involved in at BYU ... another scam ... cold fusion.
As to his claims about the composition of the dust (the 1.5 mm spheres) and that they prove thermite was used at the WTC site, I have the following comments.
First, Jones has clearly lied before about 9/11 evidence so I don't think he is above fabricating data to "prove" his allegation about 9/11. He is that obsessed with proving this since he's staked his career and credibility on the allegation.
Second ... there is NO chain of custody in that sample of dust he claims came from the WTC site. According to Jones, it came from Janette MacKinlay, a visual *artist*, who it turns out is also highly obsessed (http://www.communitycurrency.org/blog.html ) with this topic (and making money from it). MacKinlay is the *colorful* lady with the scarf to the right of Jones in the photo below at one of their recent conferences.
Curiously enough, Jones also says she took and supplied the photo that Jones claimed showed slag from a pool of molten steel. So she must have known that wasn't true since she must have seen the item up close when she took the picture. Yet she has let Jones misrepresent what the object was in public forums and papers. So she too seems somewhat dishonest and not above fabricating evidence. Which seems to be typical of those running the *truth* movement.
This one must really scare you. You broke out the monster spam post for this, eh?
I do believe that the people holding that chunk of whatever it is are the ones that said it was the result of a molten mass. You might wish to check on that.
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
I do believe that the people holding that chunk of whatever it is are the ones that said it was the result of a molten mass.
"People holding"? What in the world are you talking about, Critter? No one is holding that chunk of material that Steven Jones claimed in his viewgraph presentation was slag from a pool of molten steel. Are you experiencing the same eyesight problems that kept you from seeing that the hole in the Pentagon was more than 20 feet wide? ROTFLOL!
Who said this dipshit? Who? The people who are holding the artifacts of the WTC. Now get the frig out of here and go bother some other forum with your asinine bullshit. You make any decent human being want to puke.
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
I'm really tired of this childish little game playing of his too.
"To: Jim Robinson -- "Well I remember the day when you thought George W Bush was unfit for office and a cokehead so youll have to forgive me if I hold my own opinions about Rudys fitness for the presidency." -- by Peach (Banned)
I think Mr Eager is correct. Steven Jones is a DISHONEST sub-atomic particle physicist who wants the lime light. He didn't get it with another research topic he was involved in at BYU ... another scam ... cold fusion.
So what do you think his real goal here is if it is not the truth of what happened on 9/11? Why would he risk his career and life over something that is false? Yes, he has received death threats over this. Who do you think is threatening his life? Do you even care, or does it only matter to you when certain people get killed such as Ron Brown?
God is always good! "It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
OK, I let your dimness get under my skin tonight, and almost went to find a new home. But, I would miss beating the crap out of you on these threads too much, so... here's some more beating. hehehe
The USGS has a Particle Atlas of world Trade Center dust:
You will notice (if you're not a US government black op shill of course) that they very closely match what Dr. Jones spectra analysis produced, if you watched the video.
Spheres, that the USGS found in the dust. Spheres. How do you make an iron rich sphere Mr. genius? You must melt the iron and propel it through the air. Since NIST confirms that the fires were not hot enough to melt steel, how did they melt iron and keep it melted long enough for it to be propelled through the air during the collapse mechanism in order to cool in a sperical condition?
Come on genius. Tell me.
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
how did they melt iron and keep it melted long enough for it to be propelled through the air during the collapse mechanism in order to cool in a sperical condition?
I minored in geology and for iron, or magma, from volcanoes [for example] to take a spherical form before being ejected through the air, they would have already had to have been melted. :)))) Liquids form droplets. Solids ejecta would be irregular chunks and pieces.
In order for this to have happened, extremely high temperatures would have been required..say maybe......THERMATE? :))
Spheres, that the USGS found in the dust. Spheres. How do you make an iron rich sphere Mr. genius? You must melt the iron and propel it through the air. Since NIST confirms that the fires were not hot enough to melt steel, how did they melt iron and keep it melted long enough for it to be propelled through the air during the collapse mechanism in order to cool in a sperical condition?
Wow! The government sure went to a lot of effort to cover up this smoking gun, critter. ROTFLOL!
But why do you assume the spheres were produced before/during the collapse rather than after ... when no one argues that molten steel wasn't present? Here's what a chemist/metallurgist (rather than a sub-atomic particle physicist ... he he he) has to say about the production of metal spheres:
Remarkably, however, there is some crucial scientific evidence for the presence of molten iron or steel in the pulverized remains of WTC 1 & 2 that has apparently been completely ignored by 9/11 researchers.
I am referring to the observation of micron-sized iron spherules that have been seen in many WTC dust samples. These spherical particles are direct physical evidence that the iron within the particle was molten at the time the particle formed.
Each of the references below specifically mention the detection of iron spherules in WTC dust samples (and in most cases also provide electron micrographs of the particles in question). Reference 1 includes two such micrographs labeled IRON-03-IMAGE and IRON-04-IMAGE. Reference 2 discusses which WTC particles could best be used as signatures of WTC dust; iron spheres were considered and rejected only because they were not found in all indoor dust samples. In reference 3 we read on page 17: Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTC event, producing spherical metallic particles. And finally in reference 4 we find a micrograph of a spherical iron particle and the comment that WTC dust contains evidence for heat effected particles, including spherical particles.
1. H. A. Lowers et al. Particle Atlas of World Trade Center Dust. USGS Open-File Report 2005-1165, (2005)
2. Various authors: U.S. EPA Response to the Peer Review of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agencys Final Report on the World Trade Center Dust Screening Study. Page 28, (December 2006)
3. R. J. Lee et al. Damage Assessment 130 Liberty Street Property: WTC Dust Signature Report on Composition and Morphology. Issued December 2003.
4. S. R. Badger et al. World Trade Center Particulate Contamination Signature Based on Dust Composition and Morphology. Microscopy and Microanalysis 10 (Supplement 2), 948, (2004).
The formation of spherical iron particles has been well documented and researched for steel making processes, (See for example: Steel Research 64, 23, (1993) and Steel Research 72, 324 (2001)). Iron spheres in the 30 mm to sub-micron range are typically seen in the dust-laden off-gases produced by molten steel and are believed to be formed by the ejection of metal droplets when the liquid metal degasses.
In seeking an explanation of the formation of iron spherules during the destruction of WTC 1 & 2 it is significant that samples of WTC dust have an additional chemical signature - an enrichment of zinc. Data for iron and zinc in WTC aerosol samples have been presented by S. Qureshi and co-workers in Atmospheric Environment 40, S238, (2006). We first note that concentrations of these elements in PM2.5 aerosol collected in New York City prior to 9/11 were about 100 ng/m3 for iron and less than 20 ng/m3 for zinc. Qureshis data show that on September13 2001 the PM2.5 iron concentration was 127 ng/m3 and the zinc concentration was 217 ng/m3, i.e. airborne zinc concentrations were about ten times higher than normal. Qureshis data also show that both iron and zinc concentrations in New Yorks 2.5-micron dust peaked in early October 2001 with iron at 370 ng/m3 and zinc at a remarkable 1028 ng/m3. These observations are consistent with iron and zinc data reported by the EPA for WTC air monitoring samples collected in the same post-9/11 time period.
Why was so much zinc dispersed into the air above Ground Zero? In order to answer this question we need to consider sources of zinc in the Twin Towers. A review of the construction materials in these buildings shows that the galvanized 22-gauge corrugated sheet steel, used for the decking that supported the floor concrete, was a major source of zinc. Given that 22-gauge galvanized steel has a coating of about 50 mm of zinc on a 1 mm sheet of metal comprised of ~ 98 % iron, we may use our previous estimate of 16 tonnes for the mass of steel decking per floor to conclude that there was about 1.6 tonnes of metallic zinc on every floor in WTC 1 & 2.
We have shown in the first part of this article that if some of the thermal insulation that was applied to floor assemblies in the Twin Towers was spiked with 25 % by weight of ammonium perchlorate and subsequently exposed to jet-fuel fires, it would have heated the steel decking to ~ 1390 °C. Now, since the boiling point of zinc is 908 °C, this degree of heating of a floor assembly would have been sufficient to vaporize the zinc in the galvanized steel!
To conclude: we have shown that an AP collapse theory accounts for all four processes that collectively led to the observed level of destruction to WTC 1 & 2, namely: the buckling and fracture of floor elements; the collapse of entire floor sections; explosive spalling and powderizing of the concrete; melting of the floor pans. As an aside, we note that the addition of ammonium perchlorate to the thermal insulation on the upper floors of the Twin Towers comes very close to being the perfect crime. The deadly AP-spiked concoction would have been almost identical to the un-spiked coating; it could have been sprayed on selected surfaces with impunity; it required no elaborate detonator devices to be activated moderate heating worked just fine. And finally, because AP decomposes to gaseous products, it leaves no telltale residues. Of course, I havent proved that AP was used in the Twin Towers, but to end with a famous quote:
How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth .. The Sign of Four by Arthur Conan Doyle
F.R. Greening, March 15th, 2007
**************
Or perhaps professional engineer, Dr. John Durkee, writing in Controlled Environments Magazine in December 2003 has the answer (http://www.cemag.us/articles.asp?pid=399 ):
"In eleven seconds, the fall of each tower generated crushing mechanical forces and extreme heat .... Molten aluminum, iron and other molten metals expelled into the air by the force of the collapse formed into spherical balls as they cooled and fell back to the ground."
***************
Also, the steel rebar in the concrete floors and steel members in the structure were scraped during the collapse producing tiny particles. The melting point of steel is lower in this form? Think along the lines of the glowing particles coming off a grinding wheel. Perhaps micron size particles formed their spherical shape at the elevated temperature in the falling debris itself just due to mechanical friction?
None of that explains the presence of sulfer, manganese etc, in the sphere.
Occams razor. Remember that one? You use it all the time.
The simplest explanation for the makeup up the spheres is the use of thermate. Too many coincidental anomolies have to take place to produce thermate signature spheres without using thermate.
Go chase yoruself.
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
#31. To: Critter, christine, Minerva (#30)(Edited)
The idiot's only motive is his desire for war. He doesn't shill because the facts are on his side, he just sees the war and oppression the Bush Administration pushes in the wake of these false flag operations as the sort of reality that appeals to him.
He knows he just has to blur the picture to dampen the increasing awareness of the American People to what has happened. He goes for making it seem like a reasonable debate is occurring to discourge people's interest in piercing the psychological thrushhold of not wanting to deal with the horror of having the worst sort of criminals possible in charge of government.
He has failed to make his case, and doesn't have the tools to even try. I say react to an attack on getting the truth out that Goldi's biker bar banishment with a quid pro quo banning of Bealiar.
It's possible his banning there was contrived in order to send him here to put a damper on the efforts of Truthers here. I would be curious to see if he was suddenly reinstated at LP if banned here; I say he will.
"To: Jim Robinson -- "Well I remember the day when you thought George W Bush was unfit for office and a cokehead so youll have to forgive me if I hold my own opinions about Rudys fitness for the presidency." -- by Peach (Banned)
professional engineer, Dr. John Durkee, "In eleven seconds, the fall of each tower generated crushing mechanical forces and extreme heat .... Molten aluminum, iron and other molten metals expelled into the air by the force of the collapse formed into spherical balls as they cooled and fell back to the ground."
More like a professional moron. Keep it up BAC your "professionals" are nothing more than a bunch of liars.
Are you the one threatening Jones' life?
God is always good! "It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
"I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. [..] and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Former NYC Police Officer and 9/11 Rescue Worker Craig Bartmer
if the vile evil entity gets no replies, IT will self exile. i can't imagine IT wants to continue to talk only to ITself.
The trouble is that if his spam posts are left unrefuted, it may seem to a lurker that he has posted fact and that we cannot dispute it.
I have this debate with myself all the time. What is better? Refute and get another spam post as his response, or leave his lie unrefuted at the risk of it being mistaken for fact.
Which is worse?
A new truth movement friendly digg type site: Zlonk it!
I would say it would depend on how much time you want to waste.
Mark
"I was real close to Building 7 when it fell down... That didn't sound like just a building falling down to me while I was running away from it. There's a lot of eyewitness testimony down there of hearing explosions. [..] and the whole time you're hearing "boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." I think I know an explosion when I hear it... Former NYC Police Officer and 9/11 Rescue Worker Craig Bartmer
I have long opposed arbritrary banning based on difference of opinion. But we have here a person who shows in his early posting history at LP to be open to promoting a very scetchy conspiracy on Ron Brown because it fits his political agenda to do so. He does not work based on what is likely to be true, but to squash what hurts his overall promotion of NeoCon wars under the scetchy and vague heading "The War on Terror."
He is terrified that if the truth comes out on the false flage opperations, his precious 'war' and the further destruction of what control the people have of this government will be hurt or reversed.
He is not working in good faith, and his presence here is suspicious and bizarre.
He refuses to answer questions pertaining to his activities elsewhere to try to fight the truth movement, and I am of the opinion you give him the oppertunity to proof and test the net of lies trying to destroy the truth movement for cracks and troublesome inperfections.
If he won't answer what motives he has in doing what he does which are obviously more then merely to argue the issue, I would ban him immediately.
If he won't stop stonewalling and start involving himself with good faith give and take of a lively discussion on this issue, I would ban him with extreme and well deserved prejudice.
He is poison, and adding nothing to the discussion. Banning him would not be censorship, it would be removal of someone who has this virtual community's worst interests at heart.
"To: Jim Robinson -- "Well I remember the day when you thought George W Bush was unfit for office and a cokehead so youll have to forgive me if I hold my own opinions about Rudys fitness for the presidency." -- by Peach (Banned)
I concur with Mike, FWIW. I don't really care one way or the other though, since I have BeAGayLoser bozoed and can't see his worthless posts.
I do not say this lightly, but anyone who cannot handle the content of another's speech may not be suitable for this forum. Such a person may be better suited for a forum whose moderators control and steer the forum's ideas and speech in a given direction. -- Christine, Freedom4um
It's possible his banning there was contrived in order to send him here to put a damper on the efforts of Truthers here. I would be curious to see if he was suddenly reinstated at LP if banned here; I say he will.
Interesting theory - although I'm not sure goldi's that smart.
None of that explains the presence of sulfer, manganese etc, in the sphere.
Gee ... do you know what contains sulfur? Gypsum board (3rd most widely used construction material in the WTC towers). Dr Greening estimated there was about 4 kg of sulfur per square meter of floor space. I've posted a link to his article on Sulfur at the WTC several times at 4um and many times at LP. The presence of sulfur isn't all that hard to explain, Critter. It doesn't have to come from thermite or from steel melted by thermite. And don't you think gypsum board is a much simpler explanation than thermite?
As to the Manganese, many things contain it. Building materials, for one. The levels of many of the elements found in these samples are reportedly consistent with their presence in building materials, including chromium, magnesium, manganese, aluminum, and barium. The aluminum alloy in the planes was about 0.5% Mn. It could come from cutting operations during the cleanup. It could come from welding operations during the building. It doesn't have to come from thermite or from steel melted by thermite, if that is what you are suggesting.
Funny thing, Critter ... I don't see any REAL chemists, metallurgists, materials engineers or experts in fire coming forward to join Jones' *truth* movement. Even with all the interest by environmentalists in the WTC dust, I see no REAL experts coming forward scratching their heads about the source of the compounds found in that dust.
Are they all living in fear? No. A whole bunch are actively investigating what happened to the steels in the WTC structures. (e.g., http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Biederman/Biederman-0112.html ). Surely you've heard of some of those investigations, being so well informed. So why hasn't a single one linked arms with Jones to proclaim *the truth*? Surely with all the *evidence* you folks have, you can convince at least ONE to join you?