See other Religion Articles
Title: Minneapolis Vigil: Hagee’s “Night To Honor Israel” Promotes “Christian” Serial Wars
Source:
WeHoldTheseTruths
URL Source: http://whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=1364
Published: May 3, 2007
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2007-05-07 12:44:28 by Red Jones
Keywords: None
Views: 224
Comments: 10
Minneapolis Vigil: Hagee’s “Night To Honor Israel” Promotes “Christian” Serial Wars Charles E. Carlson May 03, 2007 Christian Zionism, by whatever name and in spite of its claim to the contrary, is a theology steeped in support of recent wars. Most who were once part of this 150-year-old sect, including this author, thought the call to war began in 1948 with the creation of political State of Israel, which state was destined for war by the stated intent of its founders. Fortunately a few visionaries, including the late Phillip Mauro, foresaw Christian Zionism’s warring proclivities many years before the World Zionist movement hatched political Israel. Mauro’s prediction proves our point in advance of us. *Endnote Christian Zionism is about war and cannot be separated from killing; therefore it is anathema to followers of Christ, who requires Peace. For this reason Project Strait Gate Vigil teams stand an eight feet long by four feet high, yellow and black sign at selected churches: “APOSTATE CHURCH, Christ Followers Do Not Kill. Project Strait Gate teams held vigils at two of America’s most influential Christian Zionist churches on back to back Sundays, April 22 in suburban LA, at John MacArthur’s Grace Community church, and on April 29 in Minneapolis at Living Word Christian Center in Brooklyn Park Minnesota. John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel was the guest star at the latter church. While two thousand miles apart the actions and reactions were remarkably similar. Both churches teach that the political state of Israel is God’s fulfillment of biblical prophesy; in so doing both have allowed Israel to encroach upon the kingdom of Jesus Christ, allowing a corrupt usurper of the name “Israel” to share the throne with Jesus. Both churches did their best to reject the vigils. Bob Singer led our 4th and best vigil at MacArthur’s Grace Community where we saw increased interest from attendees, but unabated animosity from church leaders who were represented by off duty hired police. Some 400 persons took literature from 14 Vigil team members, most dressed in their church best. Many stopped to talk, listen or debate, some fiercely. A freelance filmmaker was there gathering footage for a film about Christian Zionism and interviewed several vigil team members and members of the congregation, and a documentary writer stood quietly by taking notes for his paper which he hopes to present to seminaries. * A week later Stan Jakubowsky’s team met at in Brooklyn Park Minnesota at mega-church celebrity Mac Hammond’s enormous business called Living World Christian Center. No one could deny being a Christian Zionist, for John Hagee was there with dozens of Israeli flags everywhere, and not an American flag was in sight on the “Night to Honor Israel.” The morning Vigil during two big church services was a Project Strait Gate success. I see the score as about 3 to 0, our favor. A handful of men with big yellow and black signs carried the day, and our clear message was inescapable to almost everyone in Pastor Mac Hammond’s empire. The first congregation member to come out to see me at about 8:00 AM was a young union tradesman who agreed with our opposition to the unnecessary war, but who thought our 8 foot long sign reading “Apostate Church, Christ Followers Do Not Kill” to be overly aggressive and cast his church in an embarrassing light. We told him it was our intent to do so because his church is apostate, teaching that the State of Israel is the fulfillment of biblical prophesy. Because this leads to endless war and misery, and the loss of respect worldwide for “Christianity,” we feel Christ-called to expose it. The last attendee, who talked to me at about 6:00 PM, just before Night to Honor Israel, was visibly angry and just a little loud but emotionally under control. It seems his two sons are in Turkey, both having served in Iraq, probably will be sent back soon. He said we were not supporting them. He spoke passionately about murdered Christian missionaries in Islamic states, which he considered commonplace, and he was very sure about his facts about Iraq and Israel and equally sure that ours were all wrong. This Dad did not want to hear any scriptural arguments about peacemaking, or what Jesus would say about Iraq. He wanted get something off his chest, and he did. Having said his mind he abruptly stopped talking and marched across the grass toward John Hagee’s Night to Honor Israel. It was obvious this Dad was not in the economic strata that would require his sons to enlist in the Army for a job, and as an afterthought I called after him asking: “Why did your boys join the army anyway?” At this he stopped and spun about on his heels; “They both enlisted without asking me,” he said bitterly, as though betrayed! And he went on. The truth was out… his sons have become warriors without giving Dad a chance to talk them out of it. It is sad, for this Dad should have expected his sons to enlist, having no doubt raised them in this very Christian Zionist church that allows the likes of John Hagee to preach hatred of Islam in name of Christ to all who will enter…and give money. These people’s sons will hear and remember. This man did not want his sons in the Army, and in all likelihood their enlistment is the natural result of the Living Word Christian Center’s apostasy. How often do children raised in Jesus loving, anti-Arab Judeo-Christian churches enlist without ever asking Dad what he thinks because they believe they know what Dad thinks? They are doing exactly what they think the family considers honorable and natural. Children hear and do not forget. Christians United For Israel is a call for money from this Dad to protect Israel, but it is also a ringing cry for action when heard by youth. Perhaps this man’s sons thought they were expected to take up arms…to defend Judeo-Christianity. His children were probably taught that Arabs are the cursed sons of Ishmael, evil “Philistines” of the Bible, and that Christ expects war with them…even their extermination if they stand in Israel’s path. John Hagee’s hate fill words shock us, but they would ring true to them. Youth from such churches can’t help but think that to fight Israel’s wars is noble and worthy of life, even the sacrifice of life. Christian Zionism prepares children for war; this is the hidden horror of it. Children of parents who accept it will believe that they are justified to kill for it. A relatively few will die and a lot more will be crippled. But many are scarred for life on account of their own acts of murder and brutality. These youth will see the loving church where they were raised supporting a holy war, as the Israeli flags are waved at everyone who comes in the “wide gate.” They are taught about a warrior Christ, not a peacemaker Jesus. They see the sons of Ishmael as the enemy of their church because they can see it is the enemy of the State of Israel. Why didn’t the sons of this father ask Dad before enlisting? They probably thought they would know his answer, for if a child is raised in a Christian Zionist church, he will come away believing it is honorable to become a prison guard in war or an assassin of Arabs. John Hagee teaches hatred at a Night to Honor Israel…it is not in doubt since we have his recording. It also raises money! The church management was anything but accommodating. By about 9:00 AM an associate pastor called the police to the scene (with our encouragement) for they wanted us off the right-of-way, and out beyond the far reaches of the traffic all but invisibility in the distance. Stan and Victor had been wise enough to obtain a city plat map of the church and surrounding streets, which clearly showed the public right-of way on which we were perched. The police came, the pastor argued. We stood on our map and stayed, standing right next to the sidewalks where members came and went, and where they could only avoid our eyes as they passed, but they could not avoid our message. The attendees for the Night To Honor Israel came in mid-afternoon, hours early for a 6:30 PM performance like teenagers getting in line for at a rock concert. Project Strait Gate volunteers, including your author, arrived at the church at 5:00 PM, after having put in four hours on our feet at two regular services in the morning in the warm Minnesota sun. I can say without fear of contradiction that each of us four was stunned at the size of the crowd of “Christian” Israel worshipers that had arrived three hours early. More surprising was the overkill reception arranged for the four of us… a counter-demonstration of some 40 young Israeli-patriots, who were arrayed and waiting when we came back. Most of them held freshly painted signs in Israeli colors reading “Thank you for Honoring Israel.” Most of these signs were decorated with three or four immature Israeli flags attached like fringes around them. The tactic of the counter-demonstrators was to screen and obstruct the visibility of incoming guests from eye contact with Project Strait Gate volunteers, each one was surrounded and screened from traffic by two or more Israeli-patriots waving and thanking the incoming guests for being faithful to Israel (not Jesus). The Israeli Patriot team appeared to be carefully coached not to speak to Project Strait Gate volunteers and some remained mute the entire time. Others’ curiosity got the best of them and they spoke to us sparingly. I talked quietly to a Word of Life Christian Center youth pastor named Dan, who said little. My single question to each one asked dozens of times was: “For what deed can you honor the state of Israel…just tell me one noble thing it has done for which it can be honored?” Finally Pastor Dan answered: “They gave me my Savior,” he said. I think he wished he had not said this, for he simply could not tell me how a State created by the United Nations in 1948 could give him Jesus, born 1950 years before the State with the borrowed name. Dan said he read and had been horrified by my letter to the pastor. * And he said he had looked at http://WHTT.org website, but he said he would not do that again. He finally moved away with no more to say but: “I will pray for you.” The proper answer for such an offer of prayer is to ask the person to change their apostate views before they put you on their prayer list, for such a prayer can only be a backhanded curse until he rids himself of Christian Zionism. A dignified and articulate David held his “Thanks for Honoring Israel” sign with clear boredom. Asked if he had been to Israel he told me he was afraid to fly, but his wife had been there many times on tours by Bridges for Peace. I told David I had once debated Bridges for Peace president Clarence Wagner on KCRO Christian Radio on the very subject we were picketing “Is Israel the fulfillment of Biblical prophesy?” David wanted to know who won the debate, and showed interest in discussing the questions. But just then the Israeli Patriot in charge of the group noticing David talking to me, and interrupted our conversation to move him and his sign down the street a few feet where “he was more needed.” WHO WOULD JESUS BOMB? Some few stopped to talk, some for extended times, among these were several military age youths who wanted to know our message. One burly 19 year old in a hockey shirt stood by for at least 30 minutes listening to Will and I talk to several others who came and went. His expression was implacable and I had no idea what he was thinking until there was a lull; then, without changing expression he said: “I like you.” And he left. Sadly for America and these young men, we have the likes of Pastor Mac Hammond and John Hagee, the “Pied Pipers of War.” It is fitting we review the words of Samuel, the last Godly judge of what was the real tribe of Israel just before it started down the terrible slide to total corruption, a prophesy you will rarely hear read in the Judeo-Christian church. Samuel said, oh so you think you want a king do you: “This is the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own…He will appoint captains over the thousands and captains over the fifties and some will plow his ground and make his weapons of war…and you will cry out in that day because of the king you have chosen…and the Lord will not hear you in that day.” (1Samuel8)
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: All (#0)
many American churches really are teaching people to support the serial wars. and this really is harming the church-goers as article above says. and of course it is turning non-church goers off in a big way. and they are worshiping the state of Israel which is a creation of man and has brought forth nothing but violence and hate just as the article above says.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Excellent post, Red. Keep reminding folks about the USS Liberty, too.
Paranoia is a survival trait in a Decidership.
Whoa! I had stopped reading this article and missed this staggering question - that completely says it all. Thanks for posting it again.
Absolutely wonderful! ! ! !
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Christianity in America, like conservatism, will take decades to recover because of the evil committed by these perversions that have taken both as names. And what is sad- is that the extreme left will be the beneficiary.
Christian Zionism prepares children for war; this is the hidden horror of it. "Thanks to the terrible power of our International Banks, we have forced the Christians into wars without number. Wars have a special value for Jews, since Christians massacre each other and make more room for us Jews. Wars are the Jews' Harvest: The Jew banks grow fat on Christian wars. Over 100-million Christians have been swept off the face of the earth by wars, and the end is not yet." (Rabbi Reichorn, speaking at the funeral of Grand Rabbi Simeon Ben-Iudah, 1869, Henry Ford also noted that: 'It was a Jew who said, 'Wars are the Jews' harvest'; but no harvest is so rich as civil wars.' The fact is that the Jews were known only as destroyers in ancient history, not creators. They have developed no science, have produced no art, have built no great cities, and alone have no talent for the finer things of civilized life. The Jews claim to be the torchbearers of civilization, but thorough their parasitic habits have deteriorated or destroyed every nation in which they have existed in large numbers." (Charles A. Weisman, Who is Esau-Edom?, p. 28). "
Christians United For Israel is a call for money from this Dad to protect Israel, Red, I've been reading about Hagee and his truly diabolical work for the last couple of days. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He calls for blessing "Israel", but he is working with Pat Robertson and others to get the Jews back to "Israel" so God can slaughter them, to bring on the "second coming"/"millennium", which I believe is a side show , the purpose of which is to enthrone the British Monarchy [who CLAIM descent from King David and even Jesus] on the 'throne of David', which would REALLY be just another front for the BANKSTERS et al. This little spectacle of the Queen visiting her American colony [see THE US IS STILL A BRITISH COLONY], is all part of it. This little plot also entails the involvement of Iran, either them nuking "Israel" or America, or both. It does, apparently include the planned destruction of the east and west coasts of America. Hagee et al want WWIII to bring in their one world order. I woke up early the other day to see and hear Pat Robertson with HIS carnival act, ON EAGLE'S WINGS, which apparently has been going on for years. He is asking Christian Zionists to cough up $350 each to seend Russian Jews to "Israel", because they are being 'persecuted': "It is openly stated in the books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did." - Jews NOT Zionists. see also TEN QUESTIONS TO THE ZIONISTS at jewsnotzionists. The ADL is in on it, as well!! They don't care how many Jews get killed. They were founded in the same year as the Federal Reserve. Their only concern is that the agenda of the Jewish leaders et al who own the world is not defamed or hindered. I have a tendency to lose what I'm working on. Let me post this, and I'll give you some articles to read.
"Pro Israel" Christian Leader Blames Jews For The Holocaust By Bruce Wilson Mon Mar 05, 2007 at 10:50:15 AM EST John Hagee, deemed one of the 20 most influential evangelical leaders in America, is an increasingly powerful, fast rising star on the Christian right who has built his career on aggressive support for the Israeli hard political right. In early 2006, Texas pastor John Hagee founded the new, ostensibly "pro-Israel" national lobbying group "Christians United For Israel". But John Hagee's writings, in his latest book, might lead some to doubt Mr. Hagee's love for Jews. other perspectives on and Christian Zionism and CUFI: Jews On First Challenging Christian Zionism In "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To war" Hagee has stated that Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves by rebelling against God and that the Holocaust was God's way of forcing Jews to move to Israel where, Hagee predicts according to his interpretation of Biblical scripture, they will be mostly killed in the apocalyptic Mideast conflict Hagee's new lobbying group seems to be working to provoke and which John Hagee believes to be a necessary precondition for the "Rapture" that will lift Christians, but not Jews, bodily into Heaven to enjoy physical immortality amidst paradise. Over the past year, frequent and generally favorable media coverage of a new US national political lobbying group, "Christians United For Israel", and its outspoken founder Texas megachurch pastor John Hagee has helped cement Hagee's brand recognition as a steadfast friend to Israel and has cast a favorable light on his new CUFI lobbying group that is designed to flex the political muscles of tens of millions of American evangelicals, ostensibly on Israel's behalf. In a January 2007 conference call with Jewish bloggers, John Hagee explained that he and his fellow CUFI members were working to "organize every congressional district where every church in that district that is an evangelical church can be known to us so that if at a point in time someone in Congress or the US Senate proves to be hostile to Israel that we can lend our strength to retire them from public office." Since CUFI's founding in early 2006, John Hagee has been barnstorming the American Jewish community through feel-good events entitled "A Night To Honor Israel" which have helped win the confidence of American Jews and swelled the roles of volunteers pledged to travel to Washington DC for CUFI organized lobbying events. In apparent recognition of the new lobbying group's growing electoral power, The White House has granted CUFI considerable access and and top GOP leaders such as John McCain and House GOP Minority Whip Roy Blunt have met personally with Pastor John Hagee in recent weeks. Few media reports, however, have paid attention to jarring contradictions between CUFI's public face and public statements and writings of its founder John Hagee and CUFI's top executive members. Text from the Christians United For Israel website home page depicts the goals of the organization: CUFI seeks peace and a strong Israel, is committed to Israel's defense, and "blesses" Jews: "The Bible commands us to pray for the peace of Jerusalem (Psalm 122:6), to speak out for Zion's sake (Isaiah 62:1) to be watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem (Isaiah 62:6) and to bless the Jewish people (Genesis 12:3). These and so many other verses of the Bible have one overriding message - as Christians we have a Biblical obligation to defend Israel and the Jewish people in their time of need." But On July 19, 2006, at a CUFI's Washington DC inaugural event, with GOP Party head Ken Mehlman and US GOP Senators Sam Brownback, Rick Santorum, Kay Bailey-Hutchinson and John Cornyn in attendance ( President George W. Bush sent recorded greetings to the event ) , Pastor John Hagee declared : "The United States must join Israel in a pre-emptive military strike against Iran to fulfill God's plan for both Israel and the West... a biblically prophesied end-time confrontation with Iran, which will lead to the Rapture, Tribulation [...] and [the] Second Coming of Christ." Hagee subsequently wrote, in a Charisma Magazine editorial entitled "The Coming Holy War", that the preemptive attack he advocates should be carried out with nuclear weapons. In short, Hagee's new lobby -far from promoting any sort of peace- appears to be devoted to promoting war and conflict in the Middle East. Hagee called the 2006 summer Israeli bombing and invasion of Southern Lebannon a "miracle of God" and Hagee, along with CUFI's executive board members, have repeatedly publicly vilified Islam and Muslims. Similarly, Hagee speaks of the need to "bless" Jews but has written that Jews suffer under a historic, divine curse which is their own fault. In his 2006 book "Jerusalem Countdown" that has sold over 1.1 million copies so far, Pastor John Hagee writes that Jews themselves are responsible for antisemitism, for their own persecution, and for the Holocaust itself : "It was the disobedience and rebellion of the Jews, God's chosen people, to their covenantal responsibility to serve only the one true God, Jehovah, that gave rise to the opposition and persecution that they experienced beginning in Canaan and continuing to this very day.... How utterly repulsive, insulting, and heartbreaking to God for His chosen people to credit idols with bringing blessings He had showered upon the chosen people. Their own rebellion had birthed the seed of anti-Semitism that would arise and bring destruction to them for centuries to come.... it rises from the judgment of God uppon his rebellious chosen people." ( "Jerusalem Countdown: A Prelude To War", paperback edition, pages 92 and 93 ) The Holocaust also was part divine mechanism, suggests Hagee in his book, God's way of forcing Jews to move to Israel, where most of them, Hagee thinks, will soon be killed in the apocalyptic war his lobbying group seems to be formed in part to encourage but where Hagee seems to feel they properly belong, as a necessary, magical human precondition that must be in place before the Rapture, that will grant Christians physical immortality in Heaven:............... the wellbeing of Jews themselves appears not to be the centerpiece of John Hagee's foreign policy objectives. Rather, Hagee seems intent on a catastrophic war that will trigger "The Rapture" : Russia with Arab allies will plot and plan Israel's destruction. That's happening right now. It has been happening for 10 years. Iran's nuclear weapons have been produced with Russian scientists. The Islamic Arabs are using the Roadmap to Peace to get all of the land of Israel they can get. And when Israel finally says, `Enough!' you're going to see the beginning of the implementation of Ezekial's war in 38:39. The critical point is the church is raptured before this war begins. I am telling you that makes this message one of the most thrilling prophetic messages you've ever heard in your life. You could get raptured out of this building before I get through finished preaching. We are that close to the coming of the Son of Man. - Pastor John Hagee, from a September 18, 2006 interview in WHYY's "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross What John Hagee leaves out of his "thrilling" apocalyptic narrative, is that he believes, subsequent to the "Rapture", that most Jews in Israel, who by definition are not a part of the ones who will get "raptured" to Heaven, will die in the apocalyptic conflict Hagee and his fellow apocalyptic Christian zionists yearn for. IN "Jerusalem Countdown", Hagee does not specify what percentage of world Jewry would be killed in the apocalyptic global conflict he has described as "thrilling", but he gives a general sense. In reference to passages from the Bibles Book Of Isaiah 10:22, 22, Hagee writes : "Who is this remnant [those who will survive] ? First, it's obvious that all of that remnant is Jewish..... God promises that by his sovereign grace a "remnant" would be saved by the grace of God, a group of survivors who have the opportunity to receive Messiah, who is a rabbi known to the world as Jesus Christ." ( Jerusalem Countdown, paperback edition, pages 192 and 194 ) Many Christian Premillenial Dispensationalists -- the theological persuasion Pastor John Hagee belongs to -- believe that the majority of the Jews currently living in Israel will be killed in the period of warfare that follows the "Rapture," when "believing" Christians ( fundamentalist Christians, that is ) are bodily transported up to safety in heaven. The standard interpretation is that 2/3 or more of Israeli Jews will be slaughtered during this period but that a righteous "remnant", who have realized the error of their ways and converted to Christianity, will survive what Christian Zionists often call the "final Holocaust" or the "second Holocaust." Writings and statements made by CUFI board members Jerry Falwell and George Morrison sum up such views: Millions of Jews will be slaughtered at this time but a remnant will escape and God will supernaturally hide them for Himself for the last three and a half years of the Tribulation, some feel in the rose-red city of Petra. I don't know how, but God will keep them because the Jews and the Chosen People of God." ( CUFI Executive Board Member Jerry Falwell, in a December 2, 1984 sermon) As recounted by Terje Langeland, reporting for the Colorado Springs Independent in 2003, one of Pastor John Hagee's CUFI board members, George Morrison, expresses his sense of how Israeli and Israeli Jews will fare in the apocalytpic scenario Hagee and others long for: "Morrison, whose casual, folksy manner belies his apocalyptic beliefs, already sees signs that the End is approaching. The European Union, he says, might be the alliance of nations that according to prophecy will join the Arabs to wage war against Israel during the final days. "Great wars will begin to take place" Morrison says in a matter-of-fact voice. "Those wars are going to involve nukes." The extent of the destruction will prompt Jesus to return in order to stop it, Morrison believes. Unfortunately, he says, many Jews will be killed. "It's another Holocaust, if you will" Morrison says. " When talking to many Jews and Israelis, Hagee seems stress the need to protect Israel and promises his group's unwavering support for what Hagee calls God's historic covenant with Jews to whom, Hagee believes, God gave the historical lands of Israel for perpetuity. When talking to the Christian Zionists of CUFI, however, Hagee speaks of other matters : the need for an apocalyptic war in the Mideast that will trigger the "Rapture" of fundamentalist Christians into Heaven but also kill, Hagee believes, most Jews now living. That "necessary" war ( necessary to trigger the "Rapture": of Christians, that is ) may even lead, Hagee speculates in "Jerusalem Countdown", to massive nuclear strikes that will destroy America's East and West coasts and kill hundreds of millions and which would amount to, Hagee feels, divine punishment visited, via ICBM, on liberal Americans for insufficient support for the sort of far right, even fringe, Israeli politics Hagee promotes. Texas Pastor John Hagee, who heads the San Antonio based 20,000 member Cornerstone Church and has founded a growing broadcast empire that projects his sermons around the world is deemed one of the 20th most influential evangelical Christian leaders in America. This is a continuation of a running series on Pastor John Hagee and his new "apocalypse lobby," CUFI. For the last installment, see:" Holocaust For Zion: CUFI's Christian Zionism Made Simple What Secret "Other Matters" Did McCain Discuss With "Apocalypse Now" Hagee ? GOP House Minority Whip Roy Blunt To Help Nuclear War Advocate ............ SEE THE ENTIRE STORY AND LINKS TO OTHER RELATED ARTICLES http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/3/5/105015/2167 ===================================================== "....The International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (IFCJ) 1John 4:5 "They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them." One will find names associated with either Pentecostals, Evangelicals or listed above, also in the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews (IFCJ). 1 The Story of the Fellowship 2 and other related articles, reveals Proponents of IFCJ include names like Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, Gary Bauer, Baroness Caroline Cox, Jamie Buckingham, Jack Hayford, Dr. Lloyd Ogilvie, Charles Colson, William Bennett, Pat Boone, Dr. James Draper, Dr Robert Dugan (National Assoc. of Evangelicals), Dr. Rick Buhler and many others. Their first leadership congress included the following participants: “…Participants in the First Annual Evangelical-Jewish Leadership Congress included Dr. Ralph Reed, Executive Director of the Christian Coalition; Dr. Jerry Falwell, Chancellor of Liberty University; Dr. Richard Land, President of the Christian Life Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention; Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League; Philip Baum, National Director of the American Jewish Congress; and Rabbi David Saperstein of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations, among others. …Speaking at a news conference following the meetings, Rabbi Eckstein said, "We agreed to disagree without maligning or impugning the motives or characters of one another... We've come a long way.” Note: Dr. Richard Land signed the Evangelicals & Catholics Together Document Senator Joe Lieberman, Al Gores former running mate, is honorary chairman of the Center for Jewish and Christian Values, which is a part of the IFCJ. From the website, " The Center for Jewish and Christian Values, a special project of the Fellowship, works to improve the moral climate in our country by bringing together Jews and Christians in support of a common set of principles and programs on which to build a more moral society in America." 3 THE ADVISORY BOARD includes some of the names listed above and Gary Bauer , Bill Bennett, Chuck Colson, The Baroness Cox, Kay Cole James, Jeane Kirkpatrick, Lloyd Ogilvie, Ralph Reed , Jack Kemp, William Kristol and so on. See: EJECT2; For Chuck Colson See: Evangelicals and Catholics Together, Jean Kirkpatrick, William Kristol> CNP's Alan Keyes; Jamie Buckingham> Shepherding Connections Joseph Lieberman See: Senator Don Nickles; Hon. Trent Lott ; For: Lieberman, International Religious Freedom Act, See: World Vision: A UN Global Vision; World Vision: Institute for Global Engagement & Eastern College; Freedom Versus Freedom The IFCJ is composed of people who have endorsed the world ecumenical movement. One observer writes about a TV ad for their Isaiah 58 Project: “… I saw an infomercial at noon on my local "christian" TV station. The infomercial had Rabbi Eckstein as the main guy with Jack Hayford, Pat Robertson, Pat Boone, Jerry Falwell and Chuck Colson urging people to send their money to the IFCJ for their Isaiah 58 project. 4 They also have the Wings of Eagles 5 project where you send money to fly Jews out of Russia and into Israel. The number that you call is in Utah. When I called it the woman told me nearly all the people working there are Mormon. So the evangelical celebrities want the Christian American viewers to call Mormons in Utah who will tell them how to direct their money to Chicago (while earning a wage doing it) and the IFCJ in Chicago who are a combo of evangelical Christians and Jews who are not Christians, will collect the money and keep some of it of course…” 40 Another problem is that Rabbi Eckstein, founder, president and author, isn’t supported by the MJAA. Though the IFCJ fully supports Eckstein, the MJAA article, October 1999: An Alternative to Rabbi Eckstein 6 quotes his writings showing he is totally against Messianic or Hebrew Christians. His view is, be either a Jew or a Christian. While appreciating Eckstein’s work to help fellow Jews, the MJAA presents the alternative to Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein's ministry, Wings of Eagles.“ Instead, “well-meaning” Christians should consider supporting MJAA's Russian Aliyah Project 7, which is, “… uniting the financial resources of Messianic Jews and Christians in a public testimony of unity and love for our Jewish people.” ............." Apostles, Prophets & The International Fellowship of Christians & Jews http://www.seekgod.ca/apostles.htm ============================================= ".....e shared with HUMAN EVENTS his thoughts on the growing concerns about Iran’s nuclear threat—to Israel and the United States. Jerusalem Countdown is Hagee’s latest work on the Middle East. He previously wrote From Daniel to Doomsday: The Countdown Has Begun and The Beginning of the End. Hagee is the founder and senior pastor of Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, a non-denominational evangelical church with more than 18,000 active members. How long will it take before Israel and Iran engage in warfare? Israel will engage Iran before the end of May! What will an attack on Jerusalem mean for the United States? You are assuming an attack on Jerusalem will be successful! Jerusalem is the spiritual home for millions of Jews and Christians in America. The very dust in the street is sacred in this holy city. Israel fully anticipates retaliation from Iran. Former IDF Chief of Staff, Moshe Ya'alon, expressed confidence that Israel's anti-missile systems could protect the country, whether missiles are fired directly from Iran, by the Hizbullah launchers amassed along Israel's northern border or through Kassam rockets being amassed within Judea and Samaria. "Israel is able to strike at Iran in a number of ways, not just through air strikes," Ya'alon added. Should the United States be an aggressor against Iran? It would be shameful for America, with all it's military might, to allow Israel to fight our fight! Is the United States vulnerable to a nuclear attack from Iran? America is very vulnerable to nuclear suitcase bombs, which have the capacity to kill a million or more people per explosion. Paul L. Williams, a former consultant to the FBI on terrorism, reports there are seven teams of terrorist now working in the United States. The seven areas that have been identified are New York, Miami. Houston, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Chicago and Washington, D.C. These terrorist groups are working out of mosques and Islamic centers, which are protected by the law as "houses of worship." While Iran can reach Europe with a missile, it does not yet have a missile with sufficient range to reach America. Why must the United States put its own security on the line to defend Israel? Iran is a threat to western civilization ... not just to Israel. Iran with nuclear weapons will be the world's worst nightmare. America and Europe will be blackmailed to bow to the Islamofacist agenda. The attack on 9/11 proved Islamics have the will to kill us, they are now searching for the power to kill us ... nuclear power. Are the American people ready for another war in the Middle East? Absolutely not! Many Americans want to "cut and run" from Iraq. Our fighting terrorist on their soil prevents them from being on our soil! .........." JOHN HAGEE: IRAN POSES GRAVE THREAT TO WESTERN CIVILIZATION http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=13250 ============================================= ==================================== Sunday, February 05, 2006 Bush & the Apocalyptic Coalition Tens of millions of Americans have been reading the Left Behind fiction series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins. The stories are set in the turmoil after "real" Christians have been Raptured by God who pulls them away from earth in the End Times while those who have been "left behind" face the Tribulations. This includes those Christians who didn't make the A team who ascended. Hugh Urban explains there is a symbiosis between the worldview of the neoconservatives who have engineered the Bush Administration's foreign policy, and the plotline of the Left Behind series. In an online essay titled "Bush, the Neocons and Evangelical Christian Fiction: America, `Left Behind,'" Urban observes that: "...the Neocon's aggressive foreign policy, centered around the Middle East, and the Christian evangelical story of the immanent return of Christ in the Holy Land-- struck me as weirdly similar and disturbingly parallel. The former openly advocates a "New American Century" and a "benevolent hegemony" of the globe by U.S. power, inaugurated by the invasion of Iraq, while the latter predicts a New Millennium of divine rule ushered in by apocalyptic war, first in Babylon and then in Jerusalem." The Christian Right is composed of many different conservative tendencies and theological viewpoints, but a significant number have adopted this particular version of the apocalyptic End Times script, which is called premillennial dispensationalism. Some of them even belong to Protestant denominations that are not premillennial, and don't believe in the Rapture. Pop culture trumps theology. The focus on the Middle East has led some premillennialist Christians to become Christian Zionists. They uncritically support every policy and action by the Israeli government so that the Temple Mount in Jerusalem remains in the control of Jews who the Christian premillennialists believe will displace Islamic shrines and rebuild Solomon's Temple--which they see as a prerequisite for the return of Jesus Christ. This has also resulted in increasing antipathy towards Muslims and Islam, who some weave into the biblical script as agents of Satan who assist the Antichrist in the End Times. Neoconservatives have a secular approach to the Middle East that lines up along similar lines, with some advocating the idea of Samuel Huntington that there is a "clash of civilizations" pitting the good Judeo-Christian West against the evil Islamic East. In this worldview, the American brand of "Free Market" capitalism is a prerequisite for democracy; and the United States has an obligation to export both--using tanks and missiles if necessary. In his book An Angel Directs the Storm, Michael Northcott argues that the neoconservative: "conception of political economy is as apocalyptic as more openly religious forms of millennialism precisely because it sets up an ideology of human redemption which its advocates believe they are charged to follow regardless of the destruction and violence it may entail." Apocalyptic violence is justified from a religious perspective by the Christian Right and from a secular perspective by the neoconservatives. Both want to "take dominion" over the earth. This is the apocalyptic coalition crafted by the Bush Administration. Chip Berlet, Senior Analyst, Political Research Associates http://chipberlet.blogspot.com/2006/02/bush-apocalyptic-coalition.html ------------------------- The F oreign Policy of 20 Million Would-Be Immortals by Gary North The title of this essay appears on first reading to be a joke – an attempt, perhaps, at satire or maybe irony. It is neither. It is not a joke. It is quite real. I am deadly serious about the 20 million would-be immortals. An immortal is someone who does not die. There are approximately 20 million people in the United States who devoutly believe that there is a very real possibility that they will not die. Their belief rests entirely on the existence of the State of Israel. This is why they regard current affairs in the Middle East as a life-and-no-death matter. I am speaking of American fundamentalists. More specifically, I am speaking of those fundamentalists who are users of the Scofield Reference Bible (Oxford University Press, 1909, 1917) and who have read Hal Lindsey's 1971 best seller, The Late, Great Planet Earth, which at latest count – depending on who is doing the counting – has sold between 28 million and 35 million copies. (Mr. Lindsey continues to weave his eschatological tapestry on the improbably named Web site, http://www.hallindseyoracle.com.) There is some vague awareness within the community of journalism that the support that the government of Israel receives from American fundamentalists has something to do with what is called eschatology: "the last times." But the details of this eschatology are a blur for investigators who have not spent many hours reading the publications, past and present, of fundamentalist leaders, a task not on most columnists' top-priority list. I offer this brief report as an introduction to the closed books of a very large voting bloc. THE SECOND COMING It is not a revelation to most readers that the Christian doctrine of the last things has something to do with an apocalypse. After all, the final book in the New Testament, which Protestants call the Book of Revelation (singular), is called the Apocalypse by Roman Catholics. The Apocalypse has to do with the last judgment. This, in turn, has something to do with the second coming of Christ. Beyond this, matters eschatological become hazy for journalists and commentators. But for participants in the eschatological wars, things are amazingly precise. There are three basic views of the final judgment. The first view, called amillennialism, is common to most European church traditions. It teaches that Christ will return bodily in final judgment at the end of the era of the church, which is the end of time. The church will never attain universal dominance in history. There will be no literal millennium of a thousand years of cultural and political rulership by the saints of God. On the contrary, reign by evil-doers is to be expected. Christianity will be one position among many in a world characterized by sin, i.e., the same old same old. The position is called amillennialism because it forecasts no literal millennium preceding the final judgment. Postmillennialism is a narrowly held position which teaches that there will be a worldwide era of Christian dominance prior to Christ's second coming. This position was held by some of the English Puritans of the Civil War era of Oliver Cromwell (1642–60). It was also held by many Scottish Calvinists in the same era. It was held by New England Puritans prior to the restoration of Charles II to the throne in 1660. Jonathan Edwards defended the position a century later. So did many Presbyterians in the nineteenth century, especially those associated with Princeton Theological Seminary. The term postmillennial refers to the timing of the second coming: post-millennial, i.e., after a long reign by the saints. The most widely held view among fundamentalists is a variant of premillennialism. This view teaches that Christ will return to earth in order to establish a worldwide kingdom. He will return bodily in full power to rule mankind with a rod of iron. The final judgment will take place one thousand literal years after Christ's bodily return; hence, the term pre-millennial, i.e., a return before the millennium. This view has had defenders in the church almost from the beginning, but it has rarely been dominant. Modern fundamentalism has adopted a variant of premillennialism that was first taught in 1830. It is called dispensationalism. This view teaches that Christ will return invisibly to **** "rapture" – a word not found in the Bible – every Christian into heaven. Then Christ will return to set up a worldwide kingdom that will last a thousand years. As to the timing of this visible return, dispensationalists are divided into three camps. The dominant group teaches that He will return after seven years, three and a half of which will involve horrendous tribulation. ***** This tribulation will be applied to the State of Israel. This view is called pre-tribulational: the removal of Christians from the world before the Great Tribulation that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24. There is also a small group of post-tribulationists. They teach that Christians will go through this tribulation. It will not be limited to Israelis. Those Christians who survive will then be translated to heaven by Christ, who will stay behind to set up his earthly kingdom. There is a tiny group of mid-tribulationists, who see Christians removed from the world three and a half years before Christ returns to set up His kingdom. GETTING OUT OF LIFE ALIVE The pre-tribulational position is the position of Scofield, Lindsey, and Rev. Tim LaHaye, whose multi-volume novel, Left Behind, has sold tens of millions of copies, and has resulted in two Left Behind movies so far. The popularity of this position is understandable. Its adherents believe that they may not have to die. There are two people in the Bible who are said not to have died: Enoch and Elijah. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him (Genesis 5:23–24). And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven (2 Kings 2:11). There are approximately 20 million Americans who believe that they may share this experience. It all depends on timing. If the State of Israel is drawing close to its tribulation period, then those Christians who are alive exactly 42 months before Israel's Great Tribulation begins will escape death. This is what Left Behind is all about. Non-Christians will be left behind. They will not avoid death. Should anything happen to remove Israel from the Middle East during the lifetimes of these people, then the expected Great Tribulation will have to be postponed, probably for centuries, until another State of Israel is established. The appearance of the State of Israel in 1948 would then turn out to have been an eschatologically irrelevant political event. Should Israel ever be "pushed into the sea," these people will have to face what the rest of us began facing early in life: the prospect of our statistically inescapable physical death. This is unacceptable to them, just as it would be for the rest of us if we honestly thought we could beat the mortality table. This belief in death-free living is the rarely stated psychological motivation behind American fundamentalism's unwavering support of the State of Israel. In pre-tribulational dispensationalism's view, the Church Age will end with the Rapture of living saints into heaven. The millennial age, which will be marked by Christ's bodily presence, will not be a church age, but will be a restored Davidic kingdom. It will even involve the restoration of the Temple sacrifices – as memorials, however, not as redemptive sacrifices. As Scofield writes in one of his notes, "Doubtless these offerings will be memorial, looking back to the cross. . . ." (Scofield Reference Bible, p. 890n). TIMING THE GREAT ESCAPE According to Scofield's note to I Corinthians 15:52, the first resurrection of the dead will accompany the death-free translation of living Christians into their eternal condition. He writes: The "first resurrection," that "unto life," will occur at the second coming of Christ (I Cor. 15. 23), the saints of the O.T. and church ages meeting Him in the air. . . . The bodies of living believers will, at the same time, be instantly changed (I Cor. 15. 52–53; Phil. 3. 20–21). This "change" of the living, and the resurrection of the dead in Christ, is called "the redemption of the body" (Rom. 8. 23; Eph. 1. 13, 14). (Ibid., p. 1228n.) The crucial question is this: When will this event take place? It will take place before the beginning of the Great Tribulation, which will last three and a half years. In his note to Revelation 7:14, Scofield writes regarding the duration of the Great Tribulation, The great tribulation is the period of unexampled trouble predicted in the passages cited under that head from Psalms 2:5 to Revelation 7:14 and described in Re 11.-18. Involving in a measure the whole earth Revelation 3:10 it is yet distinctly "the time of Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah 30:7 and its vortex Jerusalem and the Holy Land. It involves the people of God who will have returned to Palestine in unbelief. Its duration is three and a half years, or the last half of the seventieth week of Daniel. . . . The great tribulation is immediately followed by the return of Christ in glory, and all the events associated therewith (Mt. 24. 29, 30). (Ibid., p. 1337n.) But how long before the 42-month Great Tribulation begins will the invisible second coming take place, the one that allows Christians to avoid death and the grave? Exactly 42 months. This is because this coming dispensation, according to dispensationalists, is the fulfillment of the prophecy of the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan. 9:24), a week of seven years. Scofield's note says: When the Church-age will end, and the seventieth week begin, is nowhere revealed. Its duration can be but seven years. (Ibid., p. 914n.) Ever since the creation of the State of Israel in 1948, fundamentalists have lost their reticence in dating the end of the Church Age. They have rejoiced in the presumably fast-approaching fulfillment of Bible prophecy during which, in Scofield's words, "the people of God who will have returned to Palestine in unbelief." Why such rejoicing? Because, if a Christian can make it to the day, exactly three and a half years before this fulfillment takes place, he will not suffer death. This is why fundamentalists send money to Jewish organizations that bring Russian Jews to the State of Israel. They want to speed up the process. One of these programs, **** "On Wings of Eagles," is sponsored by Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein's International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. In 2002, he joined with Ralph Reed, the former political technician for Pat Robertson's grass-roots political training organization, Christian Coalition, to create Stand for Israel. Reed today is Chairman of the Georgia Republican Party. "BETTER THEM THAN US!" ****** What is rarely discussed publicly by Jews or fundamentalists is the fundamentalists' view of the looming cost to Israelis for their return to Palestine. Fundamentalists believe that the Great Tribulation will wipe out two-thirds of the Jews in Israel. Hence, to encourage their return to the State of Israel is to encourage their destruction. !!!!!!!!!!! John Walvoord, who died in 2002, served for three decades as the president of Dallas Theological Seminary, the largest and best-known dispensational seminary (founded, 1924). He was the author of numerous books, both academic and popular, on dispensational prophecy. He taught Hal Lindsey, who attended Dallas Seminary. Here is his assessment of the future of Israelis. The purge of Israel in their time of trouble is described by Zechariah in these words: "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith Jehovah, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part into the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried" (Zechariah 13:8, 9). According to Zechariah's prophecy, two thirds of the children of Israel in the land will perish, but the one third that are left will be refined and be awaiting the deliverance of God at the second coming of Christ which is described in the next chapter of Zechariah. (John F. Walvoord, Israel in Prophecy [Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, [1962] 1988], p. 108. Nothing will be done by Christians to save Israel's Jews from this disaster, for all of the Christians will have been removed from this world three and a half years prior to the beginning of this 42-month period of tribulation. The only Christians present at that time will be recent converts to the faith, who had been left behind as non-believers at the time of the Rapture. Therefore, in order for most of today's Christians to escape physical death, two-thirds of the Jews in Israel must perish, soon. This is the grim prophetic trade-off that fundamentalists rarely discuss publicly, but which is the central motivation in the movement's political support for the State of Israel. It should be clear why they believe that Israel must be defended at all costs by the West. If Israel were removed militarily from history prior to the Rapture, then the strongest case for Christians' imminent escape from death would have to be abandoned. This would mean the indefinite delay of the Rapture. The fundamentalist movement thrives on the doctrine of the imminent Rapture, not the indefinitely postponed Rapture. Every time you hear the phrase, "Jesus is coming back soon," you should mentally add, "and two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will be dead in `soon plus 84 months.'" Fundamentalists really do believe that they probably will not die physically, but to secure this faith prophetically, they must accept the doctrine of an inevitable future holocaust. This specific motivation for the support of Israel is never preached as such from any fundamentalist pulpit. The faithful hear sermons – many, many sermons – on the pretribulation Rapture. On other occasions, fundamentalists hear sermons on the Great Tribulation. But they do not hear the two themes put together: "We can avoid death, but only because two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will inevitably die in a future holocaust. America must therefore support the nation of Israel in order to keep the Israelis alive until after the Rapture." Fundamentalist ministers expect their congregations to put two and two together on their own. It would be politically incorrect to add up these figures in public. The fundamentalists I have known over the last four decades generally say they appreciate Jews. They think Israel is far superior to Arab nations. They believe in a pro-Israel foreign policy as supportive of democracy and America's interests. They do not talk much about the prophetic fate of Israel's Jew. Nevertheless, this is the bottom line: the prophetic scapegoating of Israel. CONCLUSION The survival of the State of Israel is mandatory for its role as national sacrifice for Christianity, as fundamentalists perceive Christianity. Millions of Jews must die in horror in order that Christians may avoid death. To imagine that fundamentalists will ever abandon their support of the State of Israel is to imagine that these people will also symbolically sign their own death certificates. That would be the meaning for such a reversal in outlook regarding American foreign policy. It is always possible that they will abandon their faith in pre-tribulational dispensationalism, but the odds are against it. As the late David Chilton, a postmillennialist and author of three books on eschatology, once said, "The day that I became a postmillennialist, I realized that I was going to die." This was a high psychological price to abandon pre-tribulational dispensationalism. Not many fundamentalists are likely to pay it. July 19, 2003 Gary North is the author of Mises on Money. Visit http://www.freebooks.com. For a free subscription to Gary North's newsletter on gold, click here. Copyright © 2003 http://LewRockwell.com Gary North Archives
#2. To: Red Jones (#0)
“For what deed can you honor the state of Israel…just tell me one noble thing it has done for which it can be honored?”
#3. To: bluedogtxn, Red Jones, all (#2)
“For what deed can you honor the state of Israel…just tell me one noble thing it has done for which it can be honored?”
#4. To: Red Jones (#0)
Christian Zionism is about war and cannot be separated from killing; therefore it is anathema to followers of Christ, who requires Peace. For this reason Project Strait Gate Vigil teams stand an eight feet long by four feet high, yellow and black sign at selected churches: “APOSTATE CHURCH, Christ Followers Do Not Kill.
#5. To: Red Jones (#1)
#6. To: Red Jones (#0)
Youth from such churches can’t help but think that to fight Israel’s wars is noble and worthy of life, even the sacrifice of life.
#7. To: Red Jones (#0)
#8. To: Red Jones (#7)
I almost forgot, the Rapture Hoax ties in to all this insanity as well. Here's some excerpts from just a few of the stories I read. This is pretty scary stuff. I will go on about the Jews with the best of them, but when I read this stuff, and heard and watched Pat Robertson, I got p*ssed. With friends like them, who needs enemies?? Such treachery! Toward the Jews AND America. Sorry if this is jumbled. I have worked on it off and on for the past couple of days. I have a record 71 windows, and am out of time, and am relieved to be able to just pass some of this on. I don't totally understand it all. I just know it is evil. If you all already know all this, maybe somebody could just delete the post. I had heard rumors of this plot against the Jews, but it was the first time I had seen the evidence.
---------------------------------------
I think all of this ties in with Albert Pike's Satanic vision for the Third World War [ILLUMINATI AND COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS].
Hagee and Robertson's take on the Bible shows them be at best, not very good students, and at worst, False Prophets.
#9. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#8)
thanks for the great info. I myself don't trust Gary North. I agree with you on Albert Pike's vision - that is their goal. I think that vision was given to them by a dark angel. But I think that vision will fail. I think America is the country that will be sacrificed just as jesus was sacrificed. and a remnant will be saved here through supernatural powers, etc.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
#10. To: Red Jones (#9)
I'm sure Pike was visited by a dark angel, maybe Lucifer himself. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev020.html#7 I DON'T think America is going to be sacrificed. I believe America is the New Israel/New Jerusalem. EVERYTHING points to it. There's a HOLY WAR going on against it: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Psa/Psa002.html They planned three world wars. God said I WILL OVERTURN, OVERTURN, OVERTURN IT. [3 times] I wonder if He was talking about Pike's plan? speaking to Jerusalem and Israel.... Eze 21:24 ¶ Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye have made your iniquity to be remembered, in that your transgressions are discovered, so that in all your doings your sins do appear; because, [I say], that ye are come to remembrance, ye shall be taken with the hand. Eze 21:25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel, whose day is come, when iniquity [shall have] an end, Eze 21:26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this [shall] not [be] the same: exalt [him that is] low, and abase [him that is] high. Eze 21:27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no [more], until he come whose right it is; and I will give it [him]...... ******** http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eze/21/27.html . Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. please see http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=51859&Disp=22#C22
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest