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Title: See What Bush Has 'Accomplished' In Iraq
Source:
Pantagraph Publishing
URL Source: http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/ ... /08/opinion/letters/125911.txt
Published: May 8, 2007
Author: Pantagraph Publishing
Post Date: 2007-05-08 11:19:50 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 610
Comments: 61
President Bush says there is still more to accomplish in Iraq so he has vetoed Congress. Let's review what we have accomplished so far: Over 2,000 physicians killed, 250 kidnapped and 18,000 fled. Over 300 academics assassinated and thousands fled. One hundred journalists and 37 support workers killed; a number higher than any other war on Earth. The destruction of monuments and archeological sites of the cradle of civilization and of history, in general. Sectarian strife, militias, introduced with the invasion, between peoples who had lived together for 1,000 years. Ongoing suicide bombings in a country where they were unheard of. Rigged elections, the results achieved by threats, bribery, threat of ration card confiscation. Abu Ghraib's torture, forever the U.S. Army's image in the Middle East. The disappeared in the thousands. Destruction of an entire civil society with damage to every institution, costing hundreds of billions of dollars to fix. Missing Iraqi aid in billions of dollars. The illegal rewriting of constitutions, both Iraqi and American. The installation of a quisling government with loyalties largely, to anywhere but Iraq, and an American government with loyalties largely to big business. Committing Nuremberg's ``supreme crime,'' a war of aggression, based on a pack of lies. Demands for impeachment increasing by the day. Destruction of America's and Britain's image for generations to come and the inability of their citizens to feel safe anywhere. A death toll heading toward 4,000 dead U.S troops - admitted to - and thousands horrifically injured. A trillion dollar debt. Near universal loathing of America. And President Bush wants to continue this war and occupation indefinitely. Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead, 4 million fled or internally displaced.
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#22. To: Sodie Pop, robin, ALL (#20)
Tell you way, Sodie Pop ... instead of cheerleading, let's see if you can back up the million death claim. Because if you can't, why should one believe anything else the article claims? Sooner or later you folks are going to have to recognize that you can not find the truth on a foundation of lies and misinformation ... nor will you arrive at the proper course of action on such a foundation. Sooner or later you folks are going to have to recogize that the leaders of the anti-war movement, just like the leaders of the 9/11 truth movement, are not being honest. Ironic consider how much they complain about Bush lying.
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Sooner or later you will realize that your condescending sidebar sniping at people to try to discredit them and blur the discussion to synically influence lurkers turns them off more then anything else. Sooner or later you will realize your political motivations to assume a black and white, 'all of the Truth Movement is wrong,' and carping at the peace movement are highly transparent to everyone here. You are a Bush/Cheney/NeoCon butt kisser, and you support their agenda. We don't give a rat's ass what you have to say, and you have zero credibility in here in light of this.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
In other words, the truth doesn't matter. I'll keep that in mind the next time you complain about Bush (or anyone) lying. And by the way, I've never said that 'all of the Truth Movement is wrong'. What I've said is that the leaders of that movement and many of the more vocal proponents keep using disinformation and outright lies as arguments to support it. And in so doing, are discrediting the good questions that deserve answers. You won't find the truth on such a foundation of misinformation and lies. You are being ill served by the leaders of the movement, who persist in outrageous, unsupportable, and outright false claims. And if you can't recognize that and do something about it ... oh well.
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Since (I think it was) Stalin who said (something like) it mattering not how people vote, only who counts the votes, then I have to disagree with you that we throw out the 1 million figure, inflated as it may be. People with an agenda are counting the bodies that make up your figure as well. If we keep your figure, we keep the other. But let me ask you this. You said I could double or triple your figure. Why would you say that, if you are sure your figure is correct, since your counters are supposedly more honest than the others?
Warped take on my words. Listen closer. Your all or nothing -- either all is true or all is false -- attitude about every damn thing the Truth Movement runs up the flag pole demonstrably shows you operate based solely on the agenda of your support of the contrived "War on Terror," and utter hatred of anything Democrat, liberal, or that attacks NeoCons and their beliefs and goals. If you were approaching this from the perspective of weighing things and deciding what is true to you and what isn't, you would not in anyway be black and white concerning this topic. You start with agenda based conclusions and build arguments to support them. I go by this, and your use of classic blur the issue/influence the lurker posting tactics and verbiage. I go by your lack of interest in participating in friendly give and take as you cast everyone you speak to as erroneous and posture condescending toward everyone you speak to. I go by your one track mind in only having interest in posting when and where it serves to promote NeoCon beliefs, goals and agendas. Remember I welcomed you to this forum and started with an open mind on you having not had paid much attention to you before when we both were on LP and FR. I've posted online in forums since the mid 1990s, and everything I've learned as a BBS/forum interlocutor screams out that you are not to be trusted and have hidden agendas. Oh well, you make your bed here, and you can damn well sleep in it.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
BRAT!
Translation: He senses weakness and opportunity to pounce in your attempt to find middle ground. Note too he doesn't waver in the least in the overall condescending attitude toward you he relies on to try to influence lurkers toward doubt on Truth Movement and anti-war contentions. I expected as much. He is really quite predictable once you know him.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
Learn Spanish and get a tan so you can blend in with the new rulers. If Bush gets his way we will indeed be El Norte de Mexico.
Actually, he senses weakness in his own position and knows I am leading him by the nose to a conclusion that he doesn't want to see displayed publicly on this thread.
But bodies can be counted. The million figure isn't based on counting bodies but counting some 500+ people who only REPORTEDLY CLAIMED a relative was killed. And there are reasons to doubt that. They also claimed that 92 percent could supply a death certificate. Yet nothing indicates anywhere near that number of death certificates were ever written. No, the number of death certificates known to have been written is closer to the IBC estimate. And like I said, there is NO physical evidence to support the claim of a million deaths ... no bodies, no graves, no eyewitnesses (other than the 500 claiming dead), no journalist coverage, no whistleblowers from amongst the nearly half million soldiers and other 3rd parties that have been in Iraq since almost day one, no photos ... NOTHING. Furthermore, a million dead is more than died, as a percentage of population, in Germany or Japan during WW2 . And then, most of the cities in both countries were carpet bombed or burned to the ground. That didn't happen in Iraq. Because not every death ends up in a news article. But the killing of 1000 or even 10,000 in a single day (which statistically had to have happened many times IF that 1 million figure is remotely true) is not something that would go unnoticed or unreported, especially when even the insurgents have cameras and videos and when it would be in their interest to document such attrocities. But they didn't, even though they are known to have videotaped nearly every IED attack they made. Like I said, critter, you have NO evidence to support the 1 million death claim. In fact, you don't have evidence to support half a million. Or even a quarter million. You have NOTHING but a flawed study claiming 655,000 died through July of last year. And here are just some of the flaws that have been pointed out about that study ... flaws mostly just ignored by your side in debating the subject: ********************* 1. The 655,000 estimate is many, many times larger than any other estimate out there (and there are about half a dozen others). Those other estimates were more like 50,000 (or less) at the time the John Hopkins study was published. Are they all wrong and only John Hopkins right? Even various anti-war groups such as Human Rights Watch and IraqBodyCount have indicated the John Hopkins' figures are outlandish. So why are 4umers so voraciously defending JH's estimates? 2. The report and the peer reviewer of the report (the Lancet) ignored a major discrepancy between the pre-war mortality estimate derived by the John Hopkins team and the estimates derived by other organizations such as the UN and WHO. The UN and WHO, in larger studies, came up with rates between 7-8 per 1000 per year compared to the John Hopkins' rate of 5-5.5 per 1000 per year. And these larger rates were estimates that the Lancet had previously endorsed as accurate. This pre-war mortality number is one of the key numbers used in determining excess deaths. If it were as high as the UN and WHO found, then the number of excess deaths would be far less, perhaps a tenth as much. 3. A recent UN Development Program study, http://www.iq.undp.org/ILCS/PDF/Analytical%20Report%20-%20English.pdf , states that there were 24,000 war-related deaths (18,000-29,000, with a 95% confidence level) during the time covered by the Hopkins report. This is approximately ONE-FOURTH the number of excess deaths that Les Roberts' 2004 John Hopkins study found. And the UN used similar techniques - clusters, etc. - but with a much larger data set than John Hopkins. Why is there no mention of this study in the lastest John Hopkin's report (which claims its results verify the first JH report)? Why was this discrepancy not addressed by the Lancet's *peer* reviewers? I think we know why. 4. According to the latest John Hopkins report, 87 percent of those who claimed deaths were asked to prove it by providing death certificates. According to the researchers, they just forgot to ask they other 13 percent. And of those 87 percent, 92 percent (501 out of 545) were able to provide death certificates. Therefore, if the study is statistically valid, there should be death certificates available for about 92 percent of the total 655,000 estimated dead. But investigations by media sources that are not friendly to the Bush administration or the war have not found evidence of anywhere near that number. The Los Angeles Times, for example, in a comprehensive investigation found less than 50,000 certificates. Even if that investigation were off a factor of two (and that's certainly possible), there is still a huge discrepancy. To take the Johns Hopkins' results seriously, you have to believe that the Iraqi government recorded deaths occurring since the invasion with an accuracy of 92 percent, but then suppressed the bulk of those deaths when releasing official figures, with no one blowing the whistle. And you have to believe that all those dead bodies went unnoticed by the mainstream media and everyone else trying to keep track of the war casualties. Alternatively, you have to believe that the Iraqi government only issues death certificates for a small percentage of deaths, but this random sample happened to get 92 percent by pure chance. 5. A principle author of both John Hopkins studies, Les Roberts, has publically stated he disliked Bush (not unexpected given that he is an active democRAT) and the war. He admitted that he released the first (2004) study when he did to negatively influence the election against Bush and the GOP. And he has admitted that most of those he hired to conduct the study in Iraq "HATE" (that was his word) the Americans. None of that is a good basis for conducting a non-partisan study. 6. Nor is the behavior of the Lancet. They've not only failed to ask important questions during their *peer* reviews, they admit they greatly abbreviated that peer review process for the 2004 report so the results could be published in time to influence the 2004 election. They also reported on their own website in 2004, that the deaths estimated by John Hopkins were comprised solely of civilians. But the study made no such claim. In fact, it clearly states that the investigators did not ask those interviewed if the dead were civilians, Saddam military or insurgents. Which leads one to wonder if the Lancet actually read the report they claimed to review. 7. When media interviewers of the lead researchers completely misrepresented the results (for example, calling all the dead "civilians"), those researchers (one being Les Robert) made no effort to correct those falsehoods. And they went on to lie, both directly and by omission, about the methodology they used. This is indisputable. For example, here is what another of the John Hopkins researchers, Richard Garfield, told an interviewer: "First of all, very few people refused or were unable to take part in the sample, to our surprise most people had death certificates and we were able to confirm most of the deaths we investigated." That is a LIE since the first study (which is what he was talking about) indicates they only confirmed 7% of the deaths. And Les Roberts did the exact same thing in another interview. 8. In the Garfield interview mentioned above, he stated "And here you see that deaths recorded in the Baghdad morgue were, for a long period, around 200 per month." Let me repeat that figure ... 200 A MONTH, in one of the most populated and most violent regions in the country during the time in question. And now Les Roberts is asking us to believe that 15,000 (on average) were dying each month in the country since the war began. How could Garfield not have questions about this new estimate given his previous statement? 9. Richard Garfield is another of those who advocated mortality statistics before the war that are widely divergent from those derived using the Les Roberts/John Hopkins interviews. In fact, Richard Garfield said the most probable number of deaths of under-five children from August 1991 to June 2002 would be about 400,000. His *expert* opinion was that the rate in 2002 would was 9-10 percent. That is compared to the Les Robert's estimate of 2.9 percent. So why didn't Roberts or Garfield address this disparity in the report? And note that the Lancet blessed and championed the conclusions of Garfield back in 2002. So why did they ignore the discrepancy during their peer review of Les Roberts' study? 10. There is NO physical evidence whatsoever to support the claim that 655,000 Iraqis died from the beginning of the war to mid 2006. There are no killing fields filled with bodies or mass graves. There are no photos of these mountains of bodies. There are no videos of this slaughter or the funerals afterwords. There are no reporters, of ANY nationality, saying they saw these bodies or the slaughter. There are no US or foreign soldiers providing evidence of such a slaughter. There is NO physical evidence. And how can that be in a country which has according to the researchers has seen 2.5 percent of its population killed (a percentage greater than the percentage of Germany's and Japan's population killed in World War 2 where there was plenty of physical evidence that such a slaughter had occurred). 11. Dahr Jamail is a viralently anti-American *journalist*. He has close ties to the insurgents and arabs. But look on his website ( http://dahrjamailiraq.com/) for any indication that 500, much less 100 Iraqis were dying every single day on average back in 2003 and 2004 (which was during the period covered by not only the second but the first John Hopkins study) when he first started reporting from Iraq. You won't find any indication. 12. Last year was arguably the most violent since the invasion. Yet even the Iraqis reported the number killed was on the order of 16,000 in that year ... an average of 45 a day. That certainly stands in sharp constrast to the John Hopkins researchers (and their proponents) who claim that more than 500 a day have died every day on average since the invasion began. 13. But the discrepancy is even worse than that. As noted in this source (http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2006_10_08_archive.html#116069912405842066 ), "The claim is 654,965 excess deaths caused by the war from March 2003 through July 2006. That's 40 months, or 1200 days, so an average of 546 deaths per day. To get an average of 546 deaths per day means that there must have been either many hundreds of days with 1000 or more deaths per day (example: 200 days with 1000 deaths = 200,000 dead leaves 1000 days with an average of 450 deaths), or tens of days with at least 10,000 or more deaths per day (example: 20 days with 10,000 deaths = 200,000 dead leaves 1180 days with an average of 381 deaths). So, where are the news accounts of tens of days with 10,000 or more deaths?" Yes ... where are the news accounts of the many days that should have seen more than a 1000 or even 10,000 deaths? They just don't exist and it's not because reporters weren't in Iraq or had no interest in showing such slaughter. In your heart, you know the reason. 14. The number of dead the John Hopkins methodology gives in Fallujah is so staggering that even the John Hopkins researchers had to discard the data point. Yet in interviews, Les Roberts has responded as if the Fallujah data was accurate. For example, in an interview with Socialist Workers Online (note who he uses to get his message out), when asked why two thirds of all violent deaths were concentrated in this city, Les Roberts didn't respond "the data was wrong or atypical in Fallujah" as it states in his report. No, instead he answered the question as if he thought the data point was representative of what happened in Fallujah as a whole. He said "we think that our findings, if anything, underestimated the number of deaths because of the number of empty and destroyed houses." If true, then why didn't they stick to their guns and keep the Fallujah data point? 15. John Hopkins claims "We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654,965 (392,979 - 942,636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war, which corresponds to 2.5% of the population in the study area. Of post-invasion deaths, 601,027 (426,369 - 793,663) were due to violence, the most common cause being gun fire." But as already mentioned, during World War II, the Allied air forces carpet bombed German cities, using high explosives and incendiaries, and according to The United States Strategic Bombing Survey Summary Report killed an estimated 305,000. So are we to believe that with gun fire (primarily) rather than bombs, twice as many Iraqis have been killed in the last 3 years as died in all Germany during WW2 due to strategic bombing of cities (which completely flattened cities)? Likewise, Japan had about 2 million citizens killed (about 2.7 percent of their population), both military and civilian. Many Japanese cities were firebombed during that war (for example, Tokyo had 100,000 people killed in just one raid). Two cities were attacked with nuclear weapons. And yet Les Roberts and his crew want us to believe that just as large a percentage have died in Iraq ... where the Coalition has gone out of its way to avoid civilian deaths? **************** And since I've cited IraqBodyCounts estimates, here is what IraqBodyCount has to say about the John Hopkins' study: **************** From http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php A new study has been released by the Lancet medical journal estimating over 650,000 excess deaths in Iraq. The Iraqi mortality estimates published in the Lancet in October 2006 imply, among other things, that: 1. On average, a thousand Iraqis have been violently killed every single day in the first half of 2006, with less than a tenth of them being noticed by any public surveillance mechanisms; 2. Some 800,000 or more Iraqis suffered blast wounds and other serious conflict-related injuries in the past two years, but less than a tenth of them received any kind of hospital treatment; 3. Over 7% of the entire adult male population of Iraq has already been killed in violence, with no less than 10% in the worst affected areas covering most of central Iraq; 4. Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued; 5. The Coalition has killed far more Iraqis in the last year than in earlier years containing the initial massive "Shock and Awe" invasion and the major assaults on Falluja. And this: If these assertions are true, they further imply: * incompetence and/or fraud on a truly massive scale by Iraqi officials in hospitals and ministries, on a local, regional and national level, perfectly coordinated from the moment the occupation began; * bizarre and self-destructive behaviour on the part of all but a small minority of 800,000 injured, mostly non-combatant, Iraqis; * the utter failure of local or external agencies to notice and respond to a decimation of the adult male population in key urban areas; * an abject failure of the media, Iraqi as well as international, to observe that Coalition-caused events of the scale they reported during the three-week invasion in 2003 have been occurring every month for over a year. In the light of such extreme and improbable implications, a rational alternative conclusion to be considered is that the authors have drawn conclusions from unrepresentative data. In addition, totals of the magnitude generated by this study are unnecessary to brand the invasion and occupation of Iraq a human and strategic tragedy. ************ Here are their detailed criticisms of the study: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/0.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/1.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/2.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/3.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/4.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/5.php http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/pr14/6.php ************ Sorry, critter, but the 1 million death claim is as bogus as claiming ... there were no sagging floors in the WTC towers, ... that material with concrete and rebar in it is slag from a pool of molten steel, ... the impact hole in the pentagon was only 16 to 20 feet wide, ... there were only 2 small isolated pockets of fire in the tower, ... there wasn't a large hole in the south side of WTC 7, ... the WTC 7 collapsed straight down in 6.5 seconds, ... the WTC towers took about 10 or 11 seconds to collapse, ... the WTC debris piles weren't high enough, ... the spire was made of perimeter sections, ... and that psychologists, philosophers, sub-atomic particle physicists and janitors are equal experts to structural engineers, demolition experts and macro-world physicists when it comes to the collapse of skyscrapers, But then you've done those things too. So why am I not surprised.
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I'm not defending the million claim. I don't know the exact count. But how many will it take, BAC, before we say enough is enough? What's the magic number? 200k? 300k? 500k? A million? If there is no magic number, then who gives a flying fuck if it's one million or 100k? What's the big deal with the number BAC?
Again you misrepresent my stated views. I've NEVER said that all the truth movement claims is false. On the contrary, I've said that some of the questions they ask are good ones that deserve an answer. Likewise, I've NEVER said that all that the government claims is true. On the contrary, I've pointed out instances where the government has been less than honest. For goodness sakes, I've even accused the Bush administration of helping cover up a possible mass murder (in the death of Ron Brown). What I've done is point out that you will not find the truth on a foundation of misinformation or lies. So if your truth movement leaders are being dishonest and not fairly representing the facts, the truth movement is in serious trouble. And they are distorting and misrepresenting the facts. I've proven this over and over. And when the primary accusation of the truth movement is that Bush and Cheney lied to us about 9/11 and the war, that's no small matter. It is hypocritical to say the least.
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A desperate attempt to deflect attention away from what a failure the Iraq war is. Much like the Soviets in the wake of their humiliation in the 1939-1940 Winter War with Finland. "Offical" Soviet losses for the battle of Sumiomussomi and along the Ratta road were 350 dead. The Finns stopped counting the Russian dead they were piling in mass graves after hitting 20,000. Quite a difference in numbers. I'm sure in another life BAC was one of the pot bellied communist mouth peices screaming that the pictures of 100s of burned out Russian tanks and trucks and thousands of dead Soviet troops were all lies and fakes. Then when the cold war ended and the Soviet era records opened up, it was found that total Soviet losses exceeded 30,000. Of course the situation today is different. In Iraq, taking the bodies of dead family members to the police is signing their own death warrent when they write down their home address and ethnic affiliation and then hand that peice of paper over to the insurgent riddeled Iraqi government. I wouldn't be surprised if BAC still beleives the government when they say that A-Bomb tests are harmless and Agent orange is safe to use. After all, if FEDGOV declares it to be so, then it is so. "2 + 2 = 5 if the Furher says so." - Hermann Goering
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.
Then why try to use it as what is effectively your 95% confidence upper bound? Come up with a more reasonable number that you think the bulk of the evidence MIGHT support. And then try again. You might find I'm quite reasonable. A false logic. On what basis do you claim that by abandoning Iraq the number of Iraqis dying will go down? Both experts and word on the street suggests the number would go up dramatically. al-Qaeda isn't in Iraq because of our presence there. They are in Iraq because they cannot allow a freely elected, western friendly, terrorist unfriendly, democratic republic to be established in Iraq. It would significantly change the Middle Eastern equation to their detriment. It would seriously impact the plans of al-Qaeda and their state sponsors. There are good reasons to think that if we surrender in Iraq, the threat posed by al-Qaeda and its state sponsors will only be magnified. You may think you are trading Iraq for peace but you may get a million dead Americans or British in the bargain if al-Qaeda succeeds in destabilizing the country and turns it into a base of operations for its operations against the West. If the truth movement can't be honest about the little things, it won't be honest about the big things. Lying about a number like that isn't a good way to find *The Truth* or the right course of action. Why is this hard for *truthers* and *anti-warriors* to understand?
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I'm done with you for the night shill. thanks.
But you do not support ANY of their answers, and you support much of the official set of lies quite openly. This loincloth of a minor plausible denial stance by you is expectable from someone with your agenda, and is carefully framed to keep you from having to support a single finding or position of the Truth Movement. Which serves your deep hatred of all things Clinton and Democrat. 'For goodness sake,' saying you are a brother in arms against governmental lies when your Ron Brown stance serves the purpose of showing you deeply in bed with Bush policies including the "War on Terror" and NeoCon group think is deeply disingenuous and deceptive. The Truth Movement is doing an incredibly good job with available evidence of piecing and trampling the official government lies of 9-11. The False Flag operations succeeded in using the confusion and cover of the el Qaeda attacks to accomplish the demolition of buildings and destruction of much the evidence, but uncontrollable aspects of the operations have revealed things were not as claimed. The way the commission was run like a snake oil medicine show and grudgingly formed -- much like the discredited Warren Commission report on the Kennedy Murder by high government officials -- is also telling. I see you with a NeoCon agenda such as undying support for the deceptive and erroneous "War on Terror" dying to debunk what you feel hurts the agenda behind it and the attack on our freedoms and way of life it represents the "War on Terror" actually is. You are no fact finder or debunker, you are a shill with an agenda, and you start all your points of order with a conclusion and work up an argument to try to blunt and blur the effort to get the truth out the Truth Movement is doing. I rest my case. You lay bare here that you are primarily concerned with the continuation of these illegal wars meant to further the NeoCon agenda and desire to end the rough patches and bumps in the road the Truth Movement creates as it lays bare what actually happened on 9-11 and why. I know you know you will influence nobody here who has good reasoning skills, and has gone to the trouble of examining both sides of the story and know that 9-11 was a false flag operation. Your mission is to blur things for people not so sure and who lurk to stall momentum this virtual community has in getting the truth of 9-11 out. This is something being done in many Internet Venues, and in any organization, business, school or other real time aspect of people's lives to keep them away from the truth. Kids are being referred to mental health experts and stigmatized as troublemakers if they surf Truth Movement sites, search engines like Google warn that Truth Movement sites, "might endanger your computer if you go there" and a myriad of other small separately but cumulatively large efforts to kill the Truth Movement. This is precisely why you need to go bub. Your game is obvious, and your fuckwitting around to do your small part in destroying the Truth Movement does not belong here.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
Not so much misrepresent as parodied, I thought. Professionals do it all the time, it's what we get paid for. Oh, and actually fixing stuff.
''the messianic side of Americans can be tiresome.'' - Nicolas Sarkozy
Stimpy, you idiot! BeAChooser isn't real, he's a.......puppet!
''the messianic side of Americans can be tiresome.'' - Nicolas Sarkozy
... that material with concrete and rebar in it is slag from a pool of molten steel, ... the impact hole in the pentagon was only 16 to 20 feet wide, ... there were only 2 small isolated pockets of fire in the tower, ... there wasn't a large hole in the south side of WTC 7, ... the WTC 7 collapsed straight down in 6.5 seconds, No, you're not a hired shill, are you?
''the messianic side of Americans can be tiresome.'' - Nicolas Sarkozy
You show me a mass grave of that magnitude in Iraq ... one that was created since we invaded. Then show me a whole bunch more because you will need all of them to even begin to prove the slaughter of a million Iraqis. The truth is that you can't point to hard evidence like that. And one more thing. At the Battle of Suomussalmi (NOT Sumiomussomi), the Finns had hard evidence they'd destroyed the Soviet force. Not just pictures of the dead, but captured military supplies they could show the world, including over 40 tanks, 70 field-guns, 260 trucks, a thousand horses and 29 anti-tank guns. So let's see your hard evidence that a million Iraqis or anywhere near that number have been slaughtered in that last 4 years. My, my ... that's an effective debating tactic. ROTFLOL!
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He won't. You are not. The illegal and immoral invasion was like doing surgery on a patient with a chainsaw and butcher knife. Suffice it to say, if we had left regime change to those whose job it is to do this -- namely the Iraqi people -- then they would still have cultural cohesion, hundreds of thousand of people would be alive or unmaimed, our international reputation would not be discredited and in ruins and we would not be trillions of dollars lighter in the pockets with the war sucking the lifeblood out of the economy as it is doing now manufacturing goods and services that add nothing to prosparity and economic growth as they ar just thrown away in war. The war has us like a man who has stepped on a mine and heard the *click* and knows he is screwed staying there and screwed taking the foot off allowing it to explode. Too many people will die or be maimed if we stay, and they will die and be maimed if we go simply because the war was a set of crimes against humanity in the first place. Bush, Cheneym Runbo and company need to be chained and but in hoods and irons and moved to the Hague for war crime trials. And we should get out of Iraq ASAP. al Qaeda is like an oppertunistic infection on top of a disease, like pneumonia as a result of HIV. Iraqis know they do not want us there any longer. They see that the puppet governement is contrived and made up of the same oppertunistic and disfunctional con men and shills the Republic of South Vietnam government was before it folded like a house of cards in the wind in 1975 in spite of the "successful" Phoenix Operation, Vietnamazation, and Naval and Air bombardments done concurrently with the Vietnamization program. No, we just need to leave and let the people who live there pick up the pieces and decide their own future. It is a simple as that. We have inflamed the region and it is us who has turned Iraq into a hot bed of terrorism and made it a growth industry there. al Qaeda is grateful for all the energy and growth Bush and other NeoCon swine have helped them achieve. They enjoy seeing him weaken the U.S. economically and militarily and enjoy how he has ruined our reputation internationally and given them so much good press. You are 100 percant wrong, and the course you support will further build al Qaeda, not weaken or defuse it.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
So let's see the hard evidence a jet liner hit the five sided wastebasket like physical samples of DNA and A/C parts. Let's see the seized and still unreleased videotapes of security cameras that are still classified. Let's see the steel of the fallen buildings carefully preserved to verify and acertain what happened. Your argument here is humorous at best. It is the government that needs to be forthcoming with evidence they have destroyed, hidden or classified. It is the shady and deceptive way we have been operating that has helped fuel the suspicion that turned into fact finding and investigation that has given the Truth Movement so much credibility and growth. It is through Machiavellian means and deceptive practices that the powers that be try to undue the unexpected strenght of the Truth Movement which has come about because so much of the REAL truth has been figured out. You are a hypocrate and in no possition to demand facts when battlefield access to even the press is shackled and thwarted by the powers that be, and so much of the International legal system is arrogantly ignored and unrecognized by the Bush crime syndicate.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
Not true. I've made no statement either way on many of their accusations. I've been supportive of the effort to get reasonable ... rationale ... questions answered. My efforts are solely aimed at making the movement more credible. To do that, the nonsense that will surely keep the bulk of the public from taking the truth movement seriously has to be eliminated. My efforts are aimed at exposing people in the truth movement who will surely do it harm when the public realizes those individuals have lied to them about many aspects of 9/11. When that realization hits the public awareness, they will surely feel just as betrayed by the truth movement as members of the truth movement feel betrayed by the government. Now just for fun, why don't you cite a question that you say I do not support. Let's broaden the discussion a little although I can't promise a response until tomorrow as I'm rapidly exhausting my limited number of posts (that christine has kindly allowed me). Again, cite an "official" lie that you say I support. But be prepared to prove it is a lie and that I openly support it. You may find this more difficult than you think. Let me repeat ... I have accused THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION of complicity in a mass murder. That has nothing to do with Clinton or the democRATS. How in the world can you imagine that such a charge, especially one that is backed up with numerous facts and expert opinion (unlike certain accusations leveled by the *truth* movement), is helpful to Bush or the "NeoCon" movement. If they'd stay away from the assertions that have already been disproven, illogical or just plain nonsense, they might get some where regarding the truth. I don't call regurgitating material that is so easily debunked ... for example claiming that the hole in the Pentagon was less than 20 feet wide ... doing an "incredibly good job". No, that either shows total ineptitude, dishonesty or is itself part of the "plot". I'm curious. Define the NeoCon agenda. Let's see if I fit. I'll let the reader of this thread and all the others I posted on decide if that's accurate. ROTFLOL! I rest MY case. Would that be the group that has chosen to hide behind the bozo filter? Or the ones like you that refuse to actually debate the facts but instead throw out adhominens, false assertions about me and even more misinformation? Perhaps YOUR mission is to discredit the truth movement by promulgating lies that later will be used to destroy the credibility of the movement in its entirety. And when all else fails ... call for banning. It's what those who are interested in the truth ALWAYS do. (sarcasm)
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--------------------------------------------------------- Aren't you lucky. You get to receive one of the 15 posts I'm allowed each day.
Not only did you ignore the question I asked, facts suggest what you did say is quite erroneous. First, Iraq didn't have cultural cohesion before we invaded. Saddam's regime continued its campaign against the Kurds (and only our intervention ... which some of you protest ... kept them from finishing the genocide they'd begun in the 80's). The Sunni's spent the years after 91 brutalizing the Shiites. The Republican Guard, mostly Sunni, did the dirty work which is why they are so reviled by the Shiites. The Sunnis made sure they lived the good life (relatively speaking) at the expense of everyone else. There is a reason why the Sunni areas had 24 hour electricity, clean water, sanitation, food and medicine while those outside those areas often did not. Second, had we not invaded, people would still have been dying by the hundreds of thousands. Prior to the war, the UN and WHO said that Iraqis were dying at the rate of many, many thousands a month, principally because they weren't getting the food, clean water, sanitation and medical treatment they needed ... things that the Coalition has worked hard to provide since Saddam was toppled. In four years time, surely several hundred thousand more people would have died from those causes than have died. It's just that terrorists have replaced the cause. And why were those people dying before the war? Because instead of coming clean about his WMD and long range delivery systems and ending programs related to them, Saddam hid them and continued efforts to build them ... making sanctions necessary. Because instead of spending the money resulting from the sale of oil on his people as he was supposed to do, Saddam used the money on those banned weapons programs, to maintain and rebuild his Republican Guard, to build more golden palaces in honor of himself, to squirrel away cash inside walls and secret bank accounts, to fund Palestinian terrorists, and to bribe selected UN officials and certain people in countries like Germany, France and Russia. Third, it's a matter of opinion whose international reputation is discredited. Did you notice who just won the French election? Have you notice which side in the WOT countries like Saudi Arabia and Jordan support? Truth be told, most of the folks who don't like us now didn't like us before. Truth be told, efforts to get other countries to work with us in the WOT have been very successful so far. Truth be told, the countries whose respect you must think we lost (like France, Germany and Russia) were in bed with Saddam and planning to profit when the sanctions ended and he proceeded to rearm. Fourth, a few trillion dollars out of pocket expensed over 20 or 30 years will be a TINY fraction of our total economy during that time. Do you know that Americans currently spend over $65 BILLION a year on just cats and dogs. Assuming the same number of cats and dogs, and the same costs over the 20 or 30 years that corresponds to Stiglitz's $2 trillion estimate for Iraq, the US will spend nearly 1.5 TRILLION dollars keeping cats and dogs as pets. Never mind fish, ferrets, horses, rabbits, and gerbils. That should give you a clue as to just how big the American economy is relative to the projected cost of Iraq. We have TRILLIONS of disposable income. And those few trillion dollars we spend in Iraq may save costs far in excess of that. What would be the cost of a successful WMD attack by islamofanatics on the US? Some economists have indicated that 9/11 cost the US nearly a trillion dollars in direct and indirect damages. What would be the cost of fighting insurgencies in a dozen countries (which may be the result of surrendering in Iraq)? Probably far in excess of the $2 trillion dollars you folks are concerned about. And if we just surrender all those countries to islamofanatics, what will be the cost to the worlds economy (and therefore our economy) then? Islamic countries are among the LEAST productive countries per capita in the world. And surely we would benefit from a western friendly, economic powerhouse in control of a sizable fraction of the world's oil. As I've said previously, the problem with the anti-war movement is they never want to honestly examine the potential benefits of winning in Iraq and the costs of losing or having done nothing about Saddam. Well once the mine is stepped on, you'd better concentrate on the now and not recriminations about why you stepped on the mine. Or you will suffer the consequences. And sometimes, the best thing to do is not remove your foot. Your analogy actually works quite well for me. You want to lift the foot, which will blow your leg off (if you are lucky). ROTFLOL! I'm sure that will have plenty of rational people flocking to your cause. Remember the mine. Once again, you ignore what I actually said and go off on a tangent. al-Qaeda was present in Iraq before the Coalition invaded. It was even busy plotting and funding mass casualty terrorist attacks against us during that time. So our presence there is not the reason they are there now. And documents captured from al-Qaeda clearly show they think winning in Iraq is vital to them. They state in their letters that should the Iraqis manage to create a stable, vibrant, economically successful, multi-ethnic, democratically elected republic, it would be very bad for their cause. Why do you just ignore that, Ferret Mike? Another falsehood. The following links to a large poll taken in Iraq on March 5th of 2007: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2007-03-18-iraq- poll_N.htm That poll asked the question "27. How long do you think U.S. and other coalition forces should remain in Iraq?" Only 35 percent said "leave now". 38 percent chose "remain until security is restored". 15 percent chose "remain until the Iraqi government is stronger". 11 percent chose "remain until the Iraqi security forces can operate independently". 2 percent chose "remain but leave eventually". And 1 percent said "never leave". So it actually looks like about 2/3rd's of Iraqis want us to remain until what our military says they are trying to do is accomplished. Maybe that 35 percent do. But the average Iraqi doesn't. The Iraqi election process was vibrant and free. There were dozens and dozens of parties. And the people, thumbing their noses at those who called for a boycott of the election or who threatened people with death if they went to the polls, voted in numbers that should shame Americans. We didn't put anyone into power. Iraq is not Vietnam (other than a similarity in how the media and anti-war movement behaved around the time of Tet ... dishonestly). Various international organizations monitored the Iraqi election process and declared it free and fair. Now you may not like the outcome but that's the facts. It's never as simple as that. The devil is in the details. If they've achieved so much growth and have such *energy*, why are they applauding the efforts of the democRATS to pull us out? Don't they want that growth to continue? Why haven't they been able to stage a major international terrorist attack in many years? Why haven't they achieved any of their objectives in Iraq (only a surrender by democRAT can do that for them now)? Why do we keep finding and killing al-Qaeda leaders? Why do the Iraqi people hate them? Our economy continues to grow by leaps and bounds. 9/11 and all al-Qaeda's efforts has been a mere bump on that road. Militarily, we field the finest, most highly skilled army (etc) in the world with some of the best equipment (and with that equipment being further refined through use in Iraq). America's volunteer military has been tested in battle whereas most armies in the world haven't fought a major war (much less a battle) in decades. Even watching what happened in 2003, I'm not sure most people (or countries) really grasp what the US military will be capable of doing when the next war arrives. Well I'm not wrong about the 1 million death estimate being total garbage. That is what you joined in to talk about ... right? ROTFLOL!
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You're repeating yourself again.
I think I might have an idea where you are coming from now. I don't think you're an American (no, I don't think you're Finnish or Russian).
This will be my last post of the day. You want aircraft parts? Sure: How about the engines? http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml Even the conspiracy sites admit what was found is consistent with Flight 77: http://www.911-strike.com/engines.htm "The plane debris observed in the various photographs does indeed comport with that of a 757, at least to the limited degree with which they can be compared to actual 757 parts or the manufacturer's detail drawings, as shown above. The engine compressor or turbine disk appears to be approximately the correct diameter to have been used in a Rolls Royce RB211-535E4B engine, as used in American Airlines 757 aircraft. The fragment of the high pressure combustor casing also comports with the string of fuel inlet nozzle holes, the mounting bosses of which have the correct number of screw holes (6). The combustor is definitely not from a Pratt and Whitney PW2037, which is the other make of 757 engine used in the airline industry, nor is it from a General Electric CF6-80C2. Some observers have claimed that these engine parts are too small to have come from a 757. The confusion is because the RB-211 engine configuration is dominated by the large turbofan at the front of the engine, which is what people expect a 757 engine should look like. However, because the RB-211 is a "high bypass" engine, the high-pressure compressor, combustion chamber and turbine are all much smaller than the turbofan, as shown in the small overview figure at the top left of the drawing. It is perfectly reasonable to ask what happened to the turbofan -- but the compressor disk and the combustor case do look like 757 parts." Watch the following and you will see photos of all sorts of plane parts near the end: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21568_The_Pentagon_Attack_Simulation&only You want plane parts? " src="http://www.pentagonresearch.com/images/324.jpg"> As to DNA, surely you aren't calling all those first responders, members of the military and ordinary citizens who said they saw the remains of the passengers liars. Surely you aren't calling the forensic pathologists who painstakingly tried to identify the dead from those remains liars. Surely you aren't so callous as to demand those samples be made public so the *truth movement* can wound the families of the victims even further. Guess you didn't hear. The tapes have been released. Not, of course, the ones surrounding the Pentagon ... as to do that really would endanger security. But the Citgo and other tapes have been released. And they weren't "classified". The LEGAL SYSTEM required that they not be made public and this contaminate the jury pool for individuals charged with involvement in that crime. Surely you aren't calling Mr. Astaneh-Asi a liar and murderer. ******************* http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/WTC/Chronicle.html "Mr. Astaneh-Asl has set up an office in Jersey City, at one of the two recycling facilities that are processing steel beams pulled from the wreckage of the towers. The facility is run by Hugo Neu Schnitzer East, a scrap company that donated the office space and is helping the professor in his work. He spends days at a time away from Berkeley, examining what he calls the "hills of steel." As of late last month, the recycling center had collected about 12,000 beams, according to Bob Kelman, senior vice president of the company. Mr. Astaneh-Asl has devised a classification system to group the various types of damage, and has enlisted the help of workers at the recycling center, training them to spot metal beams that might yield clues. Among the features he asks workers to look for are intense "fire burn" and any unusual bending patterns in the metal. Workers take digital photos of the steel that they process, he says, and save pieces that look unusual. Officials did not originally consider the steel useful to their investigations, and so at first it was consigned to be melted down without examination. In fact, the column with the bite out of it was being cut into pieces when Mr. Astaneh-Asl saw it and asked to save it. "The most important contribution of my career was to go to New York right after the attacks," he says. Like so many people who rushed to the scene, the researcher says he hoped he could do something to help. Visiting the site just after the attacks was "a really horrifying experience," he says. It looked "like a piece of video taken from Hiroshima documentaries." But his initial visit paid off: "It ended up making it possible for future researchers to have the steel saved." The Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History recently contacted Mr. Astaneh-Asl about acquiring key pieces of the twin towers for preservation." Here's something more written by Dr Astaneh-asl, ************ http://www.house.gov/science/full02/mar06/astaneh.htm "Before the Committee on Science of the U.S. House of Representatives March 6, 2002 "Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center" ... snip ... My involvement in the investigation of the collapse of the World Trade Center is to conduct a reconnaissance of the collapsed and damaged WTC buildings and to collect the perishable data. The main objectives of the reconnaissance are to learn as much as possible from the actual collapsed structures and to document the failure modes and performance of the members and connections as well as quality of the construction. The purpose of collecting the perishable data is to collect material samples, photographs, videotapes, drawings and data on design, construction and collapse. Using the information collected and by conducting the necessary analyses and research, we try to establish probable causes of the collapse and most likely scenario for such collapse. Our project was funded by the Directorate of Engineering of the National Science Foundation as one of the eight Quick Response Research Awards in the aftermath of the WTC collapse. These projects focus on structural engineering (our project at UC-Berkeley), fire engineering, social aspects and response and recovery. More information on these projects can be found at www.nsf.gov. We prepared and submitted our proposal to the National Science Foundation three days after the 9/11 events and it was reviewed and funded by the end of the week. The credit for such a fast preparation, submittal, review and funding of these research projects should be given equally to the staff at the universities involved as well as the Program Directors and staff of the National Science Foundation. The use of "Fastlane" electronic submittal process of the NSF also expedited the process tremendously. So far, I have made three trips to NYC and spent a total of about 25 days there conducting field investigation and collecting data. Upon arrival to NYC on September 19, and after visiting Ground Zero and paying my respects and prayers to the victims, I started my reconnaissance and collection of the perishable data. I have collected some data on design and construction of the WTC and have met and discussed the case with the structural engineers who have designed the WTC Buildings. Thanks to cooperation of the HSNE recycling plant, I have been able to study the steel from the WTC before recycling. I have identified and saved some components of the structures that appear to have been subjected to intense fire or impact of fast moving objects. Figures 1 through 4 show examples of inspected structures. These critical pieces are saved as perishable data and can be used in future research. *********** And how much steel do you think should have been saved? All of it? Hundreds of thousands of tons? And what do you think it would show you that the samples they did collect won't? Hmmmmmmm? And it is the lies that the Truth Movement is now spreading that will cost it that credibility and growth. The hole in the Pentagon is not less than 20 feet across as Griffin claims. That chuck of steel Jones claimed was slag from a pool of molten steel has never been melted in anything. The WTC towers did not collapse in 10-11 seconds. And WTC did not collapse vertically nor in 6.5 seconds. These are not minor details. They are fundamentally part of the claims the *truth* movement is making. If the truth movement cannot let go of claims that have clearly been debunked, those claims will ultimately be the undoing of the truth movement. Which will be a shame because then it will be next to impossible to get answers to the questions about 9/11 that should have been answered. Nonsense. There are cameras EVERYWHERE in Iraq. There are journalists EVERYWHERE. That you can't even find one picture of the mass slaughter that would be needed to account for even half a million dead in 4 years is telling.
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This person is ill. He or she lies with a straight face consistently from stem to stern in this post. Everytime I argue with a fuckwit, all I do is confirm what I thought. I am actually worried about this cat's sanity. They can't seriously believe the crap she or he says. To call what exists in Iraq as socially incohesive as before the illegal invasion defies reason. I am sadly left to conclude this is a baiting job deliberately testing the limits of my patience. I have seen the tactic too of giving an expansive answer if responded to with a point by point to make the next one real work and to produce a series of posts that accomplish the cloud the discussion to drive away casual lurkers. I don't seriously think BAC avoids the central notion I wish addressed when I post to her and then unconsiously does everything right to do what I accurately extrappolated is how they operate in here to shill and disrupt. I hope you are having a good evening, I know I'm with Critter, I've baby sat this buzzard enough for one day and have other things I want to do far more interesting them his regurgitation of spam and double talk.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
You no speakee the English? I said I want official release of tangible evidence, and I want it done with the chain of custody intact. I've already seen most of your spam follow-up to your NeoCon dis-information piece, and that is not what I was speaking of. Yes precious, give me plane, full plane, reassembled crash investigation style and fullyu examinable. Bait someone with spam who is angered by those tactics. I am just amused and I know your game. Later alligator, try to stay out of trouble tonight.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
**************** Take that 65,000 number and double or triple it ... and you probably are in the right ball park. The million claim is simply nonsense. In BAC-world, if you did not die violently, you are not dead.
Whoa, Sugarbaby! I ain't no fucking cheerleader like your daddy bush! I did my 24 years in undeclared wars, cold wars and bar room wars. All of them turned out to be tottally over-hyped useless shit to put dough in Daddy Warbucks pockets and DAMN little in mine. I don't give a crap if ONE damn person was killed over there, let alone one million...it is folley, just as you are folley lil cowpoke.
What you say reminds me of the joke; what is the difference between a fairy tale and a war story? One starts off with, "once upon a time..." and the other, "no shit, this really happened..." BAC likes to deal with the fairy tales weaved when bureaucrats parce facts to change numbers by using different definitions and when officialdom gives some of the information wished, or information close to what's wanted to reduce pressure for information so the really don't have to give it. You and I have dealt with how plans and operations orders never survive contact with the enemy or other adversary, and the only thing consistent and happens with certainty is inconsistent and dangerous human behavior around you, and there is certainty the unpredicatable aspects of the situation can just kill you. I don't mind saying the dirty little Bush war I took part in in Panama was unnessary, served the purposes and needs of the greedy and power elite, and taught me Bush Sr. and his crime syndicate didn't belong in power, and while he was POTUS I worked for a cooked commander in chief. This is largely though I planned on staying for a retirement, I got out after nine years in the U.S. Army as a paratrooper in a couple of very different MOSs. This guy loves the game of scewing and shell gaming facts and figures all the while baking little cream puffs of sincerity and suger pies of posturing as the well spring of truth of things relating to things like 9-11. He is the down side of talking in forums, reading posts like yours with a focus on the tight reality check on things and not wating a keystroke more then nessesary when talking to a fuckwit like BAC is part of the upside of joints like this one. Thanks.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
Apparently, nolu_chan missed the fact that the 92% of the claimed 655,000 deaths were said to be the result of violence. He/she also missed the significance of those deaths being EXCESS deaths. Perhaps nolu_chan should go reread the John Hopkins report.
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There is no doubt he is exceptionally bright, so that makes me wonder how he can believe the things he tells the rest of us to believe because no one that smart can believe what he claims.
He doesn't nessesarily believe what he says and posts about. He believes in the agenda of Bush's 'War on Terror," loathes Democrats, linerals, and wants the end result the false flag operations were meant to effect. I see no sincerity to his words and his blanket aceptance of everything and anything that counters the Truth Movement is indicative that his posts are merely about serving an agenda, not discovering truth.
Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.
I woke up one day and had about 12 or 13 years in...was planning to get out at 20, but another stripe and a Europe assignment changed my mind...those last 4 were the most miserable years of my life.
He/she also missed the significance of those deaths being EXCESS deaths. Perhaps nolu_chan should go reread the John (sic) Hopkins report. I checked and rechecked the article which is the subject of this thread, and redoubled my efforts, and determined that none of your bullshit is there. Let's review what we have accomplished so far: It still says "Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead." It says nothing about the violent loss of innocent life due to exposure to 92% of BAC's daily quota of 655,000 keystrokes. Perhaps The Entity™ should learn the name of a good medical center and check into Johns Hopkins. If the Iraqi health care system is broken, and there is no Iraqi Johns Hopkins to check into, and an Iraqi dies as a result, he or she is dead and GWB can take credit from BAC or blame from those who would assign blame.
Come on, nolu_chan. Just admit you got caught. You were clearly implying by your previous response that most of the difference between the 65,000 Iraq Body Count found and the 1 million claimed dead is that most of the one million claimed didn't die from violence. But I'm willing to bet that the author's 1 million claim is based on the claims of those John Hopkin's researchers. Those researchers made the assertion that 92% of the 655,000 were violent deaths. And some have since made the assertion the total is now a million. So I tell you what. I will compare apples and oranges. That would be to compare 65,000 (claimed by IBC) to 920,000 (92% of 1 million). Fair enough? In which case, the claim of 920,000 dead is still totally bogus. It's based on nothing except the claims of about 500 people that didn't like the US, who were selected for polling by people that didn't like the US, which were processed and *peer-reviewed* by people that didn't like Bush or the war. That's a prescription for BOGUS. Now you are trying to hide behind parsing the article. As if the author really isn't trying to suggest that a million Iraqi have died as a result of the invasion. Pathetic. You demonstrate once again that you don't appreciate the conditions in Iraq before the war or even now. The UN and WHO said thousands were dying each month from lack of food, medical care and clean water. That's not the case now thanks to Coalition efforts. You also demonstrate that you don't know what was meant by excess deaths. And you are once again trying to imply that the delta between IBC's 65,000 and the million figure are people that didn't die violently when in fact 92 percent of the million is ascribed to violence by the very group of researchers who started this bogus claim of a million. PATHETIC.
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I checked and rechecked the article which is the subject of this thread, and redoubled my efforts yet again, and determined yet again that none of your bullshit is there. Let's review what we have accomplished so far: It still says "Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead." It says nothing about the violent loss of innocent life due to exposure to 92% of BAC's daily quota of 655,000 keystrokes. But I'm willing to bet that the author's 1 million claim is based on the claims of those John Hopkin's researchers. I am still willing to bet that nothing in the article says that. It contines to say that we have accomplished, "[p]ossibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead...." Now you are trying to hide behind parsing the article. I am not parsing the article, I am quoting the article. As the words actually used in the article do not support your fantasy, you feel the compulsion to supply your own imaginative alternate version. You demonstrate once again that you don't appreciate the conditions in Iraq before the war or even now. The UN and WHO said thousands were dying each month from lack of food, medical care and clean water. That's not the case now thanks to Coalition efforts. You demonstrate once again that you do not appreciate reality. Those that died are dead now and do not enjoy any of your alleged coalition improvements, be they real or imaginary.
#23. To: BeAChooser (#22)
"Sooner or later you folks are going to have to recogize that the leaders of the anti-war movement, just like the leaders of the 9/11 truth movement, are not being honest. Ironic consider how much they complain about Bush lying."
#24. To: Ferret Mike, ALL (#23)
We don't give a rat's ass what you have to say
#25. To: BeAChooser (#19)
No. I see no reason to let you use the 1 million figure to calculate that number. The 1 million figure is based on a seriously flawed study.
Enemies of the Republic
#26. To: BeAChooser (#24)
(Edited)
"In other words, the truth doesn't matter."
#27. To: BeAChooser (#19)
#28. To: Critter, BeAChooser (#16)
No. I see no reason to let you use the 1 million figure to calculate that number. The 1 million figure is based on a seriously flawed study. Heck, the authors of that study aren't even able (or willing) to answer certain questions about details concerning their study methodology. But at least you are coming to recognize that 1 million is MUCH to high and that starting with false premises and misinformation will get you nowhere.
#29. To: Critter (#6)
#30. To: Ferret Mike (#28)
He senses weakness and opportunity to pounce in your attempt to find middle ground.
Enemies of the Republic
#31. To: Critter, ALL (#25)
People with an agenda are counting the bodies that make up your figure as well.
Why would you say that, if you are sure your figure is correct, since your counters are supposedly more honest than the others?
#32. To: BeAChooser (#31)
Enemies of the Republic
#33. To: Ferret Mike, ALL (#26)
Your all or nothing -- either all is true or all is false -- attitude
#34. To: Critter (#32)
What's the big deal with the number BAC?
#35. To: Critter, ALL (#32)
I'm not defending the million claim.
But how many will it take, BAC, before we say enough is enough?
What's the big deal with the number BAC?
#36. To: BeAChooser (#35)
Enemies of the Republic
#37. To: BeAChooser (#33)
"I've NEVER said that all the truth movement claims is false. On the contrary, I've said that some of the questions they ask are good ones that deserve an answer."
"Likewise, I've NEVER said that all that the government claims is true. On the contrary, I've pointed out instances where the government has been less than honest. For goodness sakes, I've even accused the Bush administration of helping cover up a possible mass murder (in the death of Ron Brown)."
"What I've done is point out that you will not find the truth on a foundation of misinformation or lies. So if your truth movement leaders are being dishonest and not fairly representing the facts, the truth movement is in serious trouble."
"And they are distorting and misrepresenting the facts. I've proven this over and over. And when the primary accusation of the truth movement is that Bush and Cheney lied to us about 9/11 and the war, that's no small matter. It is hypocritical to say the least."
#38. To: BeAChooser, Ferret Mike (#33)
Again you misrepresent my stated views.
#39. To: Ferret Mike (#26)
Remember I welcomed you to this forum and started with an open mind on you having not had paid much attention to you before when we both were on LP and FR.
#40. To: BeAChooser (#31)
... there were no sagging floors in the WTC towers,
#41. To: Pissed Off Janitor, all (#34)
"Offical" Soviet losses for the battle of Sumiomussomi and along the Ratta road were 350 dead. The Finns stopped counting the Russian dead they were piling in mass graves after hitting 20,000. Quite a difference in numbers.
I'm sure in another life BAC was one of the pot bellied communist mouth peices screaming that the pictures of 100s of burned out Russian tanks and trucks and thousands of dead Soviet troops were all lies and fakes.
#42. To: BeAChooser (#35)
"You might find I'm quite reasonable."
"On what basis do you claim that by abandoning Iraq the number of Iraqis dying will go down? Both experts and word on the street suggests the number would go up dramatically."
"al-Qaeda isn't in Iraq because of our presence there. They are in Iraq because they cannot allow a freely elected, western friendly, terrorist unfriendly, democratic republic to be established in Iraq."
" It would seriously impact the plans of al-Qaeda and their state sponsors."
#43. To: BeAChooser (#41)
"So let's see your hard evidence that a million Iraqis or anywhere near that number have been slaughtered in that last 4 years."
#44. To: Ferret Mike, ALL (#37)
But you do not support ANY of their answers,
and you support much of the official set of lies quite openly.
"Likewise, I've NEVER said that all that the government claims is true. On the contrary, I've pointed out instances where the government has been less than honest. For goodness sakes, I've even accused the Bush administration of helping cover up a possible mass murder (in the death of Ron Brown)."
Which serves your deep hatred of all things Clinton and Democrat.
"What I've done is point out that you will not find the truth on a foundation of misinformation or lies. So if your truth movement leaders are being dishonest and not fairly representing the facts, the truth movement is in serious trouble."
The Truth Movement is doing an incredibly good job with available evidence of piecing and trampling the official government lies of 9-11.
I see you with a NeoCon agenda
You are no fact finder or debunker, you are a shill with an agenda, and you start all your points of order with a conclusion and work up an argument to try to blunt and blur the effort to get the truth out the Truth Movement is doing.
"And they are distorting and misrepresenting the facts. I've proven this over and over. And when the primary accusation of the truth movement is that Bush and Cheney lied to us about 9/11 and the war, that's no small matter. It is hypocritical to say the least."
I rest my case. You lay bare here that you are primarily concerned with the continuation of these illegal wars meant to further the NeoCon agenda and desire to end the rough patches and bumps in the road the Truth Movement creates as it lays bare what actually happened on 9-11 and why.
I know you know you will influence nobody here who has good reasoning skills,
Your mission is to blur things for people not so sure and who lurk to stall momentum this virtual community has in getting the truth of 9-11 out.
This is precisely why you need to go bub.
#45. To: Dakmar, ALL (#40)
No, you're not a hired shill, are you?
#46. To: Ferret Mike, ALL (#42)
"On what basis do you claim that by abandoning Iraq the number of Iraqis dying will go down? Both experts and word on the street suggests the number would go up dramatically."
The illegal and immoral invasion was like doing surgery on a patient with a chainsaw and butcher knife. Suffice it to say, if we had left regime change to those whose job it is to do this -- namely the Iraqi people -- then they would still have cultural cohesion, hundreds of thousand of people would be alive or unmaimed, our international reputation would not be discredited and in ruins and we would not be trillions of dollars lighter in the pockets with the war sucking the lifeblood out of the economy as it is doing now manufacturing goods and services that add nothing to prosparity and economic growth as they ar just thrown away in war.
The war has us like a man who has stepped on a mine and heard the *click* and knows he is screwed staying there and screwed taking the foot off allowing it to explode.
Bush, Cheneym Runbo and company need to be chained and but in hoods and irons and moved to the Hague for war crime trials.
And we should get out of Iraq ASAP.
"al-Qaeda isn't in Iraq because of our presence there. They are in Iraq because they cannot allow a freely elected, western friendly, terrorist unfriendly, democratic republic to be established in Iraq."
al Qaeda is like an oppertunistic infection on top of a disease, like pneumonia as a result of HIV.
Iraqis know they do not want us there any longer.
They see that the puppet governement is contrived
They see that the puppet governement is contrived and made up of the same oppertunistic and disfunctional con men and shills the Republic of South Vietnam government was before it folded like a house of cards in the wind in 1975 in spite of the "successful" Phoenix Operation, Vietnamazation, and Naval and Air bombardments done concurrently with the Vietnamization program.
No, we just need to leave and let the people who live there pick up the pieces and decide their own future. It is a simple as that.
al Qaeda is grateful for all the energy and growth Bush and other NeoCon swine have helped them achieve.
They enjoy seeing him weaken the U.S. economically and militarily
You are 100 percant wrong,
#47. To: BeAChooser (#22)
you can not find the truth on a foundation of lies and misinformation
#48. To: BeAChooser (#41)
At the Battle of Suomussalmi (NOT Sumiomussomi), the Finns had hard evidence they'd destroyed the Soviet force. Not just pictures of the dead,
#49. To: Ferret Mike, ALL (#43)
"So let's see your hard evidence that a million Iraqis or anywhere near that number have been slaughtered in that last 4 years."
So let's see the hard evidence a jet liner hit the five sided wastebasket like physical samples of DNA and A/C parts.
="
Let's see the seized and still unreleased videotapes of security cameras that are still classified.
Let's see the steel of the fallen buildings carefully preserved to verify and acertain what happened.
It is the shady and deceptive way we have been operating that has helped fuel the suspicion that turned into fact finding and investigation that has given the Truth Movement so much credibility and growth.
You are a hypocrate and in no possition to demand facts when battlefield access to even the press is shackled and thwarted by the powers that be,
#50. To: Diana, BeAChooser (#47)
#51. To: BeAChooser (#49)
"You want plane parts?"
#52. To: BeAChooser, Brian S, Sodie Pop, lodwick, Ferret Mike, Critter, robin, Dakmar (#15)
CLAIM: Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead....
BAC REBUTTAL: Following the six week “Shock and Awe” invasion phase (March 19 - May 1, 2003), which alone caused the deaths of some 7,400 civilians, the violent death toll has steadily risen year-on-year. There were 6,332 reported civilian deaths in the 10.5 months following the initial invasion in year one, or 20 per day; 11,312 in year two, 55% up on year one’s daily rate; 14,910 in year three (32% up on year two); and a staggering 26,540 in year four (78% up on year three, and averaging 74 per day). Not counting the 7,400 invasion-phase deaths, four times as many people were killed in the last year as in the first. And from the invasion to the present, at least 110,000 civilians have been wounded, 38,000 of them during year four.
#53. To: BeAChooser (#22)
instead of cheerleading,
#54. To: Sodie Pop (#53)
"I did my 24 years in undeclared wars, cold wars and bar room wars. All of them turned out to be tottally over-hyped useless shit to put dough in Daddy Warbucks pockets and DAMN little in mine."
#55. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#52)
In BAC-world, if you did not die violently, you are not dead.
#56. To: Ferret Mike (#50)
#57. To: Diana (#56)
#58. To: Ferret Mike (#54)
#59. To: BeAChooser (#55)
Apparently, nolu_chan missed the fact that the 92% of the claimed 655,000 deaths were said to be the result of violence.
President Bush says there is still more to accomplish in Iraq so he has vetoed Congress.
Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead, 4 million fled or internally displaced.
#60. To: nolu_chan, ALL (#59)
I checked and rechecked the article which is the subject of this thread, and redoubled my efforts, and determined that none of your bullshit is there.
It still says "Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead."
If the Iraqi health care system is broken, and there is no Iraqi Johns Hopkins to check into, and an Iraqi dies as a result, he or she is dead and GWB can take credit from BAC or blame from those who would assign blame.
#61. To: BeAChooser (#60)
President Bush says there is still more to accomplish in Iraq so he has vetoed Congress.
Possibly as many as 1 million Iraqi dead,
4 million fled or internally displaced.
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