Here's what I posted the last time Rosie's nonsense was posted here:
She starts out by claiming that "ALL" the steel was removed and shipped off to "Canada" ... er ... "China", "right away". She says there is no metal to test. That is absolutely false. Hundreds of structural engineers and other investigators had plenty of time to visit the WTC site and see the steel insitu, before the steel was removed. Then it went to Fresh Kill where again they got to examine it and retain those samples they considered important to understanding what happened. And tens of thousands of pieces of steel are still being retained for historical purposes and future studies. Rosie is either uninformed or a partisan liar.
Next, in the video, she says that WTC 7 "got hit by nothing". She's either uninformed or a liar. It got hit by significant amounts of debris from the collapse of the towers. That debris ripped a huge hole out of the south side of building. According to the firemen who where on the scene, a 20 story high hole.
Then she claims there were "pools of molten steel" under all three buildings. Well I challenge you to name a single eyewitness who has actually and verifiably used the word "pool" to describe what they saw. I challenge you to name a single expert in fire or steel who says finding molten steel was impossible given the circumstances. I challenge you to tell us what kept any steel that was molten, molten for over 6 weeks after the collapse. Rosie seems to think it was bombs. Show me how that might work.
Next, she claims it took the towers "9 seconds" to fall and that is the same as "free-fall". Well her claim is FALSE. From numerous credible sources (including actual videos of the collapse which one can time) one can learn that the towers actually took about 15 seconds to collapse. One can look at hundreds of still images of the collapses and immediately see that there was debris free-falling much faster than the collapsing level of the towers were descending. She surely has to have seen these images. So Rosie is either a liar or hasn't bothered to apply the least bit of thought to interpreting what she saw or the least bit of energy into investigating the issue.
So not only do professionals in the areas of structures, demolition, materials, fire or macro-world physics NOT agree with Rosie. The facts of the matter don't either. All she is really doing is hurting the effort to find out what really happened on 9/11. There are good questions to ask but if *truthers* make no effort to stop idiots like Rosie from muddying the water with nonsense and lies, you will never find the truth. People like her are the *truth* movement's worst enemy.
And in anticipation of nolu_chan's "notice", let me add:
: Truth Movement members almost seem unable to post articles that aren't deceptive or contain outright lies about what happened to the WTC structures and the Pentagon. And they seem to have particular trouble dealing with visual materials that prove their claims false. Why is that?
They continue to claim the towers collapsed in 10 seconds when video clearly shows they took 15 seconds to collapse. They continue to claim the entrance hole in the Pentagon was less than 20 feet across when photos convincingly prove it was closer to 90 feet. They continue to make an assortment of similar, demonstrably false claims despite all efforts to get them to change their ways.
Why can't *truthers* face the truth? They (and we) will never find out what really happened on 9/11, if they can't do that. Because a *Truth Movement* cannot be founded on disinformation and outright lies. That should be obvious to all. But apparently they can't see that either. It is sad.
#21. To: BeAChooser, Nolu Chan, Christine, Zipporah, Kamala, Red Jones, SKYDRIFTER, Everyone Interested In How Silly The Government's Official Collapse Story REALLY Sounds (#1)
So not only do professionals in the areas of structures, demolition, materials, fire or macro-world physics NOT agree with Rosie. The facts of the matter don't either.
I wonder if someone had asked EVERY structural engineer and demolition expert in the world prior to 9/11 if it would work to bring down a structure like one of the twin towers by flying a large jet into the top third of it, how many would have said "Hey - that MIGHT work!"?????
Answer: PROBABLY NOT A SINGLE ONE WOULD HAVE.....
BUT, demolition experts the world over should be VERY thankful to OBL, and those 19 Mooslim cohorts that set out to prove the worlds "experts" wrong!!! They showed that not only DOES it work, but with an extremely high success rate! In fact, 100% success rate (it would have worked on the Pentagon too, but that one was a little to "sprawled out")!
Just think of all the profit potential this has for demolition firms... Hell, all they need is to purchase some decommissioned aircraft; have it outfitted with remote control capability (Systems Planning Corporation - [Zakheim's old haunt] can help them with that, it's their specialty); buy 10,000 gallons of jet fuel (around 30 grand at today's prices); and in less than 2 hours have that sucker down!!!!! It'll save god-only-knows how many man-hours rigging buildings for weeks and months in advance, plus the costs of the explosives themselves, and the need for high paid professionals to handle those explosives. And that's for one of the world's LARGEST structures!! Why shit, if it's a small enough eye-sore (like a 20 story run-down old office they need to "take out" to make room for a parking lot for the new bank) they could probably even get by with a little old twin-engine Cessna - and get the job done REALLY dirt cheap!!!
Wonder when Controled Demolition Inc is gonna start using this newfound technology???
I wonder if someone had asked EVERY structural engineer and demolition expert in the world....
I wonder if they asked the on-scene firefighters and EMS personnel about what they saw, what those statements might look like. No... wait... they did ask... and they looked something like this....
EXPLOSIONS IN WITNESS STATEMENTS
From official statements taken in FDNY World Trade Center Task Force Interviews
Each name hyperlinks to the PDF of the complete witness statement. [Complete except for government redactions.]
We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
I went inside and I told everybody that the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I think we have another major explosion. I don't know if we are all going to be safe here. I told them I can't force you, but I don't know if we are going to be safe here. I'm going to try to get as far away from this building as possible. Unbeknown to me, a half a block down was the water.
A. No. I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
Q. Was that on the lower level of the building or up where the fire was?
A. No, the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw. And I didn't broach the topic to him, but he asked me. He said I don't know if I'm crazy, but I just wanted to ask you because you were standing right next to me. He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see any flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them, too.
I don't know if that means anything. I mean, I equate it to the building coming down and pushing things down, it could have been electrical explosions, it could have been whatever. But it's just strange that two people sort of say the same thing and neither one of us talked to each other about it. I mean, I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. I was just standing next to him. I never met the man before in my life. He knew who I was I guess by my name on my coat and he called me up, you know, how are you doing? How's everything? And, oh, by the way did you ... It was just a little strange.
Q. On the television pictures it appeared as well, before the first collapse, that there was an explosion up on the upper floors.
A. I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes. I don't know how far down this was already. I mean, we had heard the noise but, you know, I don't know.
As my officer and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.
It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.
As we're all walking to the back of the buklding through the freight -- not the freight -- the loading docks in the back of the building. We get to the back -- we don't even get to the back of the building. We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy shit, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said shit and everybody started running and I stared running behind them, and we get to the door. For some reason, like straight out of a movie, two people ran through the door together and got stuck in the doorway, and I'm like, oh, my God, this is not the time. So they squeezed through and they got through and I squeezed through them and ran around them because I just wanted to see which way the towers were falling.
So at that point now, we were just waiting for patients and nobody was coming in. It was like, you know. Then we ran into another Lieutenant, Lieutenant Davis. I think he's from Battalion 4, if I'm not mistaken.
(Tape side two.)
-- towers and I heard six loud explosions, and those six loud explosions changed my mind real quick and I went back over to the triage center and it was like you know what? Let me wait here. I had no helmet. I had nothing that would have protected me from anything that hit me in my head. So I stayed where I was at.
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.
At that time, when I heard the 3 loud explosions, I started running west on Vesey Street towards the water. At that time, I couldn't run fast enough. The debris caught up with me, knocked my helmet off. I tumbled and then eventually I started running again. I made it behind a building on North End Avenue. I set up a triage area in that corner building and at that time I started treating patients.
At that time I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.
There were some units there, along with a Battalion Chief and I gave them some instructions as to what to try to do. And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse
Then the building popped, lower than the fire, which I learned was I guess, the aviation fuel fell into the pit, and whatever floor it fell on heated up really bad and that's why it popped at that floor. That's the rumor I heard. But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped I thought it was an explosion.
While I was down at Battery Park, I finally got through on my phone to my father and said, "I'm alive I just wanted to tell you, go to church, I'm alive. I just so narrowly excaped this thing." He said, "Where were you? You were there?" I said, "Yeah, I was right there when it blew up." He said, "You were there when the planes hit?" I said, "No, I was there when it exploded, the building exploded." He said, "You mean, when it fell down?" I said, "No, when it exploded."
I still didn't realized what had happened. I totally thought it had been blown up. That's just the perspective of looking up at it, it seemed to have exploded out. But that I guess was the force of the upper stories collapsing down.
We heard a rumbling noise, and it appeared that that first tower, the south tower, had exploded, the top of it. That's what I saw, what a lot of us saw. We ran down underneath the Financial Center.
I can't tell you how long it was before it died down. I just felt like the darkness the loneliness and being alone was the worst thing I ever experienced in my life and not being able to breathe. There was no air. Whatever this explosion was simply sucked all the oxygen out of the air. You couldn't breathe and the feeling of suffocation, I can't explain no further on that.
Firefighter Richard BANACISKI, p. 3 We were there I don't
know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an
explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It
seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Referring to WTC 7, he said: "They told us to get
out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is
right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon
building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the
building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers
were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just
remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled
us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they
were really worried about."
Now I don' t think this firemen could tell you
with absolute certainty that what he saw were explosions caused by explosives
or thermite (as opposed to the rupture of structure members during buckling or
gas being forced out of the structure by air compressed due to the collapse
above it), but I bet he knows with a 100% certainty what a huge hole in WTC 7
and tremendous fires in it looked like ... things the *truth* movement has
denied were the case in WTC 7.
Captain Karin DeSHORE
(EMS), p. 15 Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was
this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then
this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building
had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was
initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it
would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see.
These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and
down and then all around the building. I went inside and I told everybody that
the other building or there was an explosion occurring up there and I said I
think we have another major explosion. I don't know if we are all going to be
safe here.
For example, upon arriving at the WTC site which
is well before the towers collapsed, she said "We could see the smoke coming
out of the buildings, explosions, you know, dark smoke coming out of both
buildings."
So even before the collapse ... in fact, long before the
collapse, she was saying she could see "explosions". Is part of the truther
theory that bombs or thermite were already going off in the towers? Or did
Karin just use the word explosion loosely?
And here's some more of what
she said about the first collapse: "My back was towards the building, trying
to push everybody up. Grassy hill was there and up underneath that overpass,
when somebody just simply shouted and have no idea who it was, it's blowing. I
had no clue what was going on. I never turned around because a sound came from
somewhere that I never heard before. Some people compared it with an airplane.
It was the worst sound of a rolling sound, not a thunder. I can't explain it,
what it was. All I know is -- and a force started to come hit me in my back. I
can't explain it. You had to be there. All I know is I had to run because I
thought there was an explosion."
Again, we find Karin using the word
explosion quite loosely. Even when she "had no clue what was going on." A
little later in the interview she says "I was unaware what was happening. I
thought it was a major explosion. I didn't know the building was collapsing."
And later still "Whatever this explosion was simply sucked all the oxygen out
of the air."
So when she uses the word explosion in what nolu_chan quoted
her saying some time BEFORE the second tower collapsed, why are we supposed to
believe she was 100% certain it was due to explosives or thermite going off?
What she interpreted as "explosions" were occurring long enough before the
collapse that she had time to go inside another building, warn them, tell them
she was going to get as far away as possible, take an injured fireman and 2
elderly ladies out of the building and another half a block further away. Then
she had more conversations and is quoted in the interview thinking "So here
these explosions were getting bigger and louder and bigger and louder and I
told everybody if this building totally explodes, still unaware that the other
building had collapsed, I'm going in the water". Then she and those she was
with still had time to carry all the injured down to the water and get them on
a boat.
And then once again, while facing away from the towers, a tower
collapses and again she describes it as an explosion. So I'm sorry, nolu, but
her use of the world explosion is not all that significant in terms of proving
bombs or thermite were used. Your quoting her out of context does suggests
something. What you are doing is called "quote mining", a dishonest tactic the
*truth* movement has used to make folks believe people like Karin were really
describing the use of explosives in the towers. In my opinion, you disrespect
Karin and the others when you pull this stunt.
In talking about the first collapse he said: "At
that point in time we heard a rumble, we heard a noise, and then the building
came down. All we saw was dust and everything just started to get very
chaotic. At that point in time all of us at the command post, firefighters,
chiefs, myself, we turned around, we started to run south, down West Street
towards Albany. Looking back over my shoulder, I realized that I wasn't able
to outrun whatever was coming because it looked like a giant wave behind us,
so I went up against a chain-link fence, I got down on one knee, I put my
hands over my head to hold my helmet on so I wouldn't get hit in the head with
anything, and we just proceeded to get clobbered with all kinds of debris. ...
snip ... The air got very thick, very dirty. It was very difficult to breathe.
I was choking. I proceeded to at some point in time -- again, I lost track of
time -- to give an urgent or a Mayday message on the radio, which I
subsequently listened to myself and I have a cassette of that, indicating that
something had happened. I asked a dispatcher if they were aware of it because
during the time that it got very black and very quiet, my radio cut out
completely. Apparently the dust in the air cut the radio signal out. The radio
just hummed for maybe about 30 seconds and then it came back on again. At that
point in time I called Manhattan. I was answered. I asked them if they were
aware of an explosion at the World Trade Center."
Tell us nolu ... does
his use of the word explosion here indicate his certainty that explosives were
used to bring the WTC tower down? And the portion you quoted has him saying he
saw low level flashes "on the lower levels" of the building ... "like when
they demolish a building". But tell us, NC ... when they deliberately demolish
a building with flashes on the lower levels ... does it collapse from the top
or the bottom? The bottom, right? But this one collapsed from the top down.
Care to explain that? What would be the purpose of such lower level
explosives?
Firefighter Edward CACCHIA, p. 5 As my officer
and I were looking at the south tower, it just gave. It actually gave at a
lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had
thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in
succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down.
You mean Edward CACHIA. Well notice that Mr Cachia said
he "originally" thought it was due to internal detonation explosives. But I
guess he no longer feels that way. Right? And he also had more to say than
this one quote mined from his interview (http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/91102
51.PDF ):
"At that point in time, we're looking up at the north tower.
I remember my officer saying, "I have a feeling this one is going to come down
too." Just as he said that, that tower came down it looked like at the point
of impact. We actually witnessed both towers coming down visually. We happened
to be looking at that particular time. With that, the tower came down."
Why no mention of explosions during this collapse? Wouldn't that suggest the
government brought down one with explosives but used something else for the
other ... like a energy beam from space or the basement?
"Then a detective came up and said
we're pulling back to Chambers. I'm like word? He's said yeah because Tower 1
is going to come down. He said the same thing. I was like all right. At that
point I looked up at Tower 1 and I could see that she was leaning slightly but
not much, and as I looked over to -- I looked at the tower, I looked at
everybody else and everybody else is hauling -- everybody is walking up,
walking south towards Chambers. So the officer offers me some water, I take
it, starting to drink it as I'm walking, and I'm walking because he said we
got to pull back."
And if you follow his description further, you'll find
it was quite a while before that tower actually came down. So why was the
tower leaning, NC, if it was bombs and thermite that did it? And you are quote
mining again because in what you quoted, he was not suggesting for one moment
that what brought the towers down was a ground level explosion. What he was
saying is that he was for the second time hearing that sound of a towers
debris hitting the earth ... that "twisting metal wreckage again". And you are
again disrespecting a witness, NC, by using his quotes out of context.
Now
I don't care to take the time to go through the rest of what you posted, but I
bet the story is the same in each case. Because quote mining is what
*truthers* do.
: Truth
Movement members almost seem unable to post articles that aren't deceptive or
contain outright lies about what happened to the WTC structures and the
Pentagon. And they seem to have particular trouble dealing with visual
materials that prove their claims false. Why is that?
They continue to
claim the towers collapsed in 10 seconds when video clearly shows they took 15
seconds to collapse. They continue to claim the entrance hole in the Pentagon
was less than 20 feet across when photos convincingly prove it was closer to
90 feet. They continue to make an assortment of similar, demonstrably false
claims despite all efforts to get them to change their ways.
Why can't
*truthers* face the truth? They (and we) will never find out what really
happened on 9/11, if they can't do that. Because a *Truth Movement* cannot be
founded on disinformation and outright lies. That should be obvious to all.
But apparently they can't see that either. It is sad.
nolu_chan is
particularly guilty of this behavior. He should thank me for pointing out
errors in Truth Movement claims so they can be refined till they can stand up
against all criticism. But instead, having tried and failed to challenge the
sourced facts, logic and visual material that I've posted, he has decided to
post a silly notice about me and then try to ignore what I post. That won't
change the facts. It's not going to stop my correcting bogus claims when I see
them. This will not do anything but make *truthers* look even more ridiculous
and pathetic.
: Because BeAChooser has been shown to repeatedly post spam and falsehoods, continued substantive response to his posts, including this one, is considered a waste of time. This NOTICE is the standard response to all BAC blather.