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Title: Guns, Germs and Steel: Why This Diamond Doesn't Shine
Source: The Birdman
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 22, 2007
Author: Review by John "Birdman" Bryant
Post Date: 2007-05-22 14:00:22 by Tauzero
Keywords: Kumbaya
Views: 300
Comments: 32

Guns, Germs and Steel: Why This Diamond Doesn't Shine

Jared Diamond is author of one of those semi-academic books that get on all the book lists and award lists and review lists because it says what the intellectual establishment wants you to believe, which is usually well toward left of center and generally veering into the ditch. Diamond's book made a particular hit because it is the only book in the known universe (ie, California, Washington and New Yawk) which has proposed an antithesis to that sub-rosa thesis of white racialists and white supremacists, to wit, that the white race has reigned supreme in most of the world for the last three thousand years or so because it has SUPERIOR INTELLIGENCE. Diamond, however -- being the clever fellow that he is, put forth the theory that white success was not due to white intelligence (Diamond, after all, is an equalitarian, which means that he believes that highbrow equals lowbrow, stupid equals smart, and of course, black equals white), but rather to GEOGRAPHY, which is not surprising when you think about it, since Diamond is a Professor of Geography at the University of Whereverthehell. (Here we are reminded of the old joke about the tailor whose success led to an audience with the Pope. When he returned home, a friend asked him, "What kind of a man is the Pope, really?" The tailor responded, "Oh, he's a 38 small.")

Contrary to the reader's expectation, we must grant that the Diamond hypothesis is at least believable. His thesis is basically that Eurasian whites grew up in circumstances which allowed them to develop their culture more rapidly than those of other lands -- they had better animals to domesticate, better grains for which to pound their plowshares, and more lethal germs to cull their population, with the result in the latter case that they spread the little buggers everywhere and killed off so many that dominating the world was a virtual cakewalk at the Darktown Strutters' Ball, with the Darktown Strutters as the victims.

Now as I said earlier, Diamond's thesis is believable, and I am sure that a great many of Diamond's fellow leftists believe it. But the ugly fact is that Diamond's thesis can no more be proved or disproved than, well, the white racialists' theory that white dominance rests on superior white intelligence. What I am getting at is that history is so complex that there is very little point in trying to maintain that this event or that event was THE cause, or THE PRIMARY CAUSE, of some other event. It is a bit like the old saying about 'For want of a nail, a shoe was lost; for want of a shoe, a horse was lost; for want of a horse, a rider was lost; for want of a rider, a battle was lost...'. Maybe, indeed, you can trace some event down to the point of a nail, but is this to say that no other event could have changed things? Maybe if they had just thought to send their message by pigeon... This, of course, is not to say that Diamond's thesis is 'wrong' or that it fails to be thought-provoking. But if the late philosopher Karl Popper is to believed, then Diamond's thesis must fail on the proposition that it is not FALSIFIABLE, ie, that there is no conceivable data that can possibly make Diamond's thesis untrue (tho there is undoubtedly data which can make it seem LESS PROBABLE). Now I don't happen to agree with Popper on the matter of falsification, but, hell, if I can drop a name like Popper's into the stew, I figure I can win a few Brownie points, and maybe even get the melting pot aboiling.

But even if we do not do the boogie-woogie with Karl, it remains a fact that the white racialist theory is one up on Diamond. More specifically, Occam's razor -- also known as the Law of Parsimony -- enforces on scientists the rule that they should adopt the simplest theory that fits all the facts, and attributing white dominance to white intelligence is much simpler than a complex theory like Diamond's, in which one is forced to reason out dozens of such arcanities as that Africa's zebras are really less domesticable than Eurasia's ponies.

But there is much more than this to the fallibility of Diamond's thesis. In particular, Diamond argues that Eurasia is an advantageous locale -- a doubtful proposition at best, since many white racialists argue that Africa is the WORLD'S RICHEST CONTINENT, a point they make in the context of arguments that black intelligence is inferior because blacks, tho born to African riches, have never developed a civilization worthy of the name (Sorry, Jack -- the Egyptians were NOT black). Indirectly the same argument has been made by black scholar Thomas Sowell (and independently by Yours Truly) that whites came out of Africa because they were PUSHED OUT BY SUPERIOR NEGROES, and survived only after the cull of the Great North had winnowed their number down to those with the high intelligence that allowed them to survive in the bleakness of Eurasia. Thus while negroes were at one time superior, they never got beyond the rich man's game of plucking bananas and harvesting worms, and thus allowed whites to gain and finally surpass them in the evolutionary struggle. This, however, is something we suspect is not unknown in evolutionary annals: It sounds also like the story of the Jews who apparently have been persecuted into superiority by whites (ie, only superior Jews have survived so many generations of Christian persecution) -- whites who are now at the mercy of those Jews who are riding high because of Yahweh's evolutionary promise of punishment for his enemies 'unto the fourth and fifth generations of them that hate me.'

But if Diamond's thesis meets its antithesis in Sowell, it also meets a roadblock in Prof Richard Lynn's extensive cataloging of 'IQ and the Wealth of Nations', something which shows a clear correlation of IQ and wealth. This, then, constitutes powerful support for IQ as the fons et origo of culture -- it cannot prove the thesis, as I have already argued, but it can certainly make it a lot more believable.

In conclusion, we see that Diamond, as a leftist Jew, wishes to knock the white race off its pedestal of superiority because he doesn't think it should be there (after all, it is only JEWS who are the CHOSEN). One way to do this is to adopt equalitarianism, which denies that racial superiority is possible. But this does not satisfy Diamond, who is more honest than some of his fellows (or at least recognizes that dishonesty is not going to buy him lunch), so he invents a theory that acknowledges white superiority, but does it in such a way as to impute no virtue to whites, but only the luck of being born in the right place. Personally, I think that white intelligence is a lot better explanation for white dominance and the superiority of white culture, and while my view, like Diamond's thesis, can never be proved, I think it will get us a lot further down the road without running us into that proverbial ditch.

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#1. To: Tauzero (#0)

Actually, Diamond's book makes a lot of sense since it also explains the rise of India, China, and Egypt as ancient civilizations. It is recommended reading, as is his other book on how societies collapse.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   14:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: mirage (#1)

Actually, Diamond's book makes a lot of sense since it also explains the rise of India, China, and Egypt as ancient civilizations. It is recommended reading, as is his other book on how societies collapse.

Diamond's book is tedious and circular. His hypothesis that whites were simply fortunate in terms of the geographic, zoological and botanical environment they landed in, is elastic enough to make every facet of whites' developmental environment into some kind of advantage. He assumes for example that because white societies were able to domesticate grains like wheat and cattle, there was something superior about wheat (as opposed to, say, rice which has a much greater yield per acre than wheat---look at East Asia's population, for Heaven's sake), rather than something distinct about whites that allowed them to develop as they did. (BTW, before Diamond's thesis, it was hypothesized that whites developed advanced civilization because their environment was adverse---the so- called "challenge" hypothesis. I guess that still gave white folks too much credit, though...)

Give a black man a handful of wheat, and he could have conquered the world? Luck into the right environment, and you can just "think and grow rich"? Bullshit, I say.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   15:36:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#2)

Give a black man a handful of wheat, and he could have conquered the world?

Armies travel on their stomachs.

More food = More people
More people = Bigger Armies
Bigger Armies = Domination

It really IS that simple. Read the history of China for additional details.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   15:42:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: mirage (#3)

More food = More people
More people = Bigger Armies
Bigger Armies = Domination

The Bantu peoples of black Africa developed agricultural techniques centered around cultivation of the yam---still a staple in black Africa---and developed the ability to forge iron tools (including weapons), which allowed them to expand and dominate the continent of Africa south of the Sahara, around the time of the Greeks and Romans.

More food---more people---domination. Check, check, check. So how come they didn't develop writing, transport, currencies, cities, etc.? Wheat beats yams somehow?

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   16:21:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#4)

So how come they didn't develop writing, transport, currencies, cities, etc.?

The natives did not know the wheel until the Europeans introduced them to it.

I guess maybe eating twinkies and orange soda for breakfast might have something to do with it. ;0)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-05-22   16:28:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: BTP Holdings (#5)

I guess maybe eating twinkies and orange soda for breakfast might have something to do with it. ;0)

They have plenty of food in our inner cities, and their armies aka "gangs" dominate that space. Hence, an inner city is an ideal developmental environment. QED

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   16:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#4)

Wheat beats yams. Wheat is more easily transportable, has more 'food value' and protein in it, is much more versatile than yams, and stores for years. Yams don't easily store for years, have much less 'food value' than wheat, and are much less versatile.

Also, take a look at domesticable animals. Africa has..uh...not a lot. Eurasia had many more.

Once animals were harnessed for work (horses, oxen, etc) then people were freed up for other things. You can have authors and philosophers if fewer people can be tied to agriculture or gathering food.

One *can* make the argument that the climate in Europe led to them overdeveloping food production thus freeing up cycles for other activities pretty easily.

Norse Greenland is a pretty good example of climate facilitating a collapse.

All things are interrelated. Diamond points out the relations. You can draw your own conclusions based on the facts, but food production and animal domestication (along with resources and things like trees) gave the big head-start.

People had to adapt the domesticated plants and animals to their own environment. Politically, Europe has always been fragmented. China and India were less so. Thus, politically, as Diamond points out, Europe had the advantage. Also, Europe had what Diamond calls "kleptocratic religion" which fostered takeovers and fights. Fights lead to technology and technology leads to dominance.

This article grossly misrepresents and oversimplifies Diamond's book. I suggest you read through it and you'll find that the Europeans were more adept at adapting things to their own needs than anyone else because the societies were organized in such a way that they could make use of it better than anyone else.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   16:36:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: mirage (#7) (Edited)

Wheat beats yams. Wheat is more easily transportable, has more 'food value' and protein in it, is much more versatile than yams, and stores for years. Yams don't easily store for years, have much less 'food value' than wheat, and are much less versatile.

So what? Yams are available year round, whereas you have to harvest wheat one or at most two times a year. The storage or food value of yams did not impede Bantu expansion---why should it have impeded their civilizational development?

Also, take a look at domesticable animals. Africa has..uh...not a lot. Eurasia had many more.

Uh... more circularity. Animals have to be "domesticated" by human agency, don't they?

Once animals were harnessed for work (horses, oxen, etc) then people were freed up for other things. You can have authors and philosophers if fewer people can be tied to agriculture or gathering food.

You assume that black African societies had no individuals who were free to philosophize. You also assume that such individuals could philosophize as well as those in white (or Asian) societies if freed from agriculture. That is the unspoken, unproven thesis of Diamond's work. It is simply taken as axiomatic that geographically separated human populations have the exact same abilities to exploit any given environment.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   16:53:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#8)

So what? Yams are available year round, whereas you have to harvest wheat one or at most two times a year. The storage or food value of yams did not impede Bantu expansion---why should it have impeded their civilizational development?

Try transporting yams some day without animals. Your argument unfortunately kills itself. Yams don't transport too well and they don't store very well. Bantu expansion was very slow if you look at the timelines. Eurasian expansion in contrast was much faster. What were the differences? Animal labor and transportable food.

Quite simply, if you don't have an animal you can ride, you won't invent a saddle. Without a saddle, you are limited to 'foot speed' and what you can carry since there are no beasts of burden to share the load. Thus, the environment DOES affect development in extreme ways.

Uh... more circularity. Animals have to be "domesticated" by human agency, don't they?

You've got a nonsensical argument here. First, you have to have animals you can domesticate. THEN you need to domesticate them. One precedes the other. Africa is lacking in domesticable animals and there are geographic barriers. Its called "sub-Saharan Africa" for a reason. Diamond lays out a chart of animals and which ones were domesticated and which ones were not for each continent. Read it and you'll discover that Africa is lacking as is South America as is Australia.

You assume that black African societies had no individuals who were free to philosophize. You also assume that such individuals could philosophize as well as those in white (or Asian) societies if freed from agriculture. That is the unspoken, unproven thesis of Diamond's work. It is simply taken as axiomatic that geographically separated humans populations have the exact same abilities to exploit any given environment.
Unproven? Explain why there was never an Irish Empire or why the Inuit never took over the world without citing food problems, lack of resources, or lack of domesticable animals as a contributing factor.

They don't call it the "Cradle of Civilization" for nothing. Things expanded out of there. Plants don't grow everywhere. Try growing an orange tree in Alaska and see how far you get.

The fact is that plants like latitudes. Longitudes are less relevent. The same goes for animals.

Geographic barriers are also a fact of reality. Why are there no Polar Bears in Brazil?

Like I said, read the book and examine the tables for yourself. Then apply some basic knowledge - like - not everything is adapted for every environment and that one thing must precede another for technological advancement.

Then throw in that centralized empires (China, Rome, etc) don't advance as quickly as competitive states (think city-states like Germany) -- there are multiple factors at work here. It isn't JUST food production, but food production is a large factor.

Then there is technology. How many people in the US are tied to the farm? Is that not a contributing factor to the prowess of the United States - that we're not having to grub for food all the time and that people are freed up in the cities (there's another difference to look for) to pursue other activities than mere grubbing for chow?

Technology moves "where it can" - meaning - a lack of geographic barriers causes technology to move where it can. Put a mountain range or a desert or an ocean in the way and technology tends not to move to the area with the barrier in the way.

Look beyond what you think was the case and look at the actual factors that go into making a successful civilization and remember that sailing ships, automobiles, and the Internet are recent inventions. Picture a world where those don't exist. How do things move around? What were the originating places of wheat, oxen, rice, etc? What were the political structures? Did societies encourage advancement by competing with each other or was there an authoritarian structure that prevented technological advancement? Further, what else was in the geography? Were there river, inlets, and natural ports/bays? How could that facilitate sea travel or inhibit it? Were there large iron deposits, copper deposits, or forests? If not, how would that inhibit technological progress?

You'll get a better picture then.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   17:20:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#2)

yeah, it's got nothin' whatsoever to do with IQ, does it?

christine  posted on  2007-05-22   17:34:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#8)

Let me add something else to this - Africa will not rise as a world power because of lack of technology and lack of societal organization along with a lower average IQ and diseases that keep them down. The lower average IQ is due to the fact that they don't need it. Throw in the environmental factors and you have a people that simply can not advance at the societal level.

Since technology is "one thing builds on another" and Africa has been out in the cold for thousands of years, they won't pull it together. In order to build a car, you have to have the base knowledge put together via small improvements and breakthroughs over centuries. They don't have the base knowledge to be able to buy Western Textbooks and understand them on the societal level.

Their tribal organizational pattern prohibits this. Their religious structures prohibit it. Their lack of previous technology due to environmental factors prohibit it.

We see this here in the US. The black community is either Afro-centric or "blame someone else." They don't innovate for the most part. They don't need to. Aside from those few folks who have ditched the cultural gotchas, they're a basket case.

The same goes for Africa. Why should they bother when everyone just gives them everything?

Asia, on the other hand, is a kleptocracy. They'll steal anything that isn't nailed down and adapt it for themselves. One of the things that has been keeping Asia down is their written language. 80,000+ Chinese characters? Even the Japanese developed a phonetic alphabet eventually.

But, suffice it to say, its the whole package. There is no single contributing factor.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   17:59:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: mirage (#9)

Try transporting yams some day without animals. Your argument unfortunately kills itself. Yams don't transport too well and they don't store very well. Bantu expansion was very slow if you look at the timelines. Eurasian expansion in contrast was much faster. What were the differences? Animal labor and transportable food.

Why do you need to transport yams if they grow anywhere in Africa and all year round? I don't care how slow Bantu expansion was---what does that have to do with developing a civilization? And what the hell do you mean by "Eurasian" expansion? You mean there were a bunch of folks like Keanu Reeves running all over the place while Africans were plodding along with their yams?

First, you have to have animals you can domesticate. THEN you need to domesticate them. One precedes the other. Africa is lacking in domesticable animals and there are geographic barriers. Its called "sub-Saharan Africa" for a reason. Diamond lays out a chart of animals and which ones were domesticated and which ones were not for each continent. Read it and you'll discover that Africa is lacking as is South America as is Australia.

Oh, I see. Because animals have not been domesticated in Africa, there are no animals to domesticate? No analogue of the domestic dog in Africa? No analogue of cattle? No analogue of the horse? How is it that Hannibal for instance crossed the Alps with elephants as transport if the African elephant is not "domesticable"? You've still got a circular argument.

Unproven? Explain why there was never an Irish Empire or why the Inuit never took over the world without citing food problems, lack of resources, or lack of domesticable animals as a contributing factor.

Oh, come on. The Irish couldn't grow wheat or raise horses? You might as well ask me to explain why there was never an Umbrian Empire or let me demand of you why the Mongols managed to conquer the known world. Good food supplies are important but they are not critical to either dominance or civilization. You're simply pushing Diamond's environmentalist dogma.

They don't call it the "Cradle of Civilization" for nothing. Things expanded out of there. Plants don't grow everywhere. Try growing an orange tree in Alaska and see how far you get.

You mean the Middle East? Why didn't all the different peoples of the Middle East develop civilization simultaneously? Why did the Sumerians develop writing first? Did they have better wheat? Your thesis tries to prove too much, and thus proves nothing.

Geographic barriers are also a fact of reality. Why are there no Polar Bears in Brazil?

And geographic barriers created isolated populations with distinct racial characteristics, including differing mental traits and abilities. Ooops! Have I carried your logic too far?

How do things move around? What were the originating places of wheat, oxen, rice, etc? What were the political structures? Did societies encourage advancement by competing with each other or was there an authoritarian structure that prevented technological advancement? Further, what else was in the geography? Were there river, inlets, and natural ports/bays? How could that facilitate sea travel or inhibit it? Were there large iron deposits, copper deposits, or forests? If not, how would that inhibit technological progress?

I'm not sure political structures have that much to do with technological progress, as much as I value freedom. China was (and is) a very authoritarian and centralized society, yet up until about 500 years ago, it was as technologically advanced as the West.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   19:29:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: mirage (#9)

remember that sailing ships, automobiles, and the Internet are recent inventions.

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-05-22   19:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: mirage (#9)

You've got a nonsensical argument here. First, you have to have animals you can domesticate.

I asked you above if there were any analogue to the domestic dog in Africa. At the time I was thinking of the Cape hunting dog, but since I know the domestic dog is supposed to be descended from wolves, I decided to see if there is a native African wolf.

Lo and behold, there is: the Ethiopian wolf. Tell me why native Africans couldn't domesticate it.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   19:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#12)

China was (and is) a very authoritarian and centralized society, yet up until about 500 years ago, it was as technologically advanced as the West.

1) Shouldn't that be "it was far more technologically advanced than the West."?

2) In describing China as a very authoritarian and centralized society, isn't it important to observe that the area over which the Emperor had complete authority and power tended to wax and wane with the passage of time? It is my understanding that Imperial China was no Nazi Germany/USSR -- or even Red China -- in terms of having its commands obeyed to the furthest extent of its designated boundaries.

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-05-22   19:59:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#14)

Ethiopian wolf.

Hmm I wonder if this was the ancestor of the saluki?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saluki

Zipporah  posted on  2007-05-22   20:03:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#12)

Why do you need to transport yams if they grow anywhere in Africa and all year round? I don't care how slow Bantu expansion was---what does that have to do with developing a civilization? And what the hell do you mean by "Eurasian" expansion? You mean there were a bunch of folks like Keanu Reeves running all over the place while Africans were plodding along with their yams?

You know better than to create a straw man. I'll burn it for you now.

Eurasian expansion means the latitudes of the Mediterranean across Asia and Europe. As we know - plants and animals adapt for a latitude, not a longitude.

As for transportation, as a society expands, it runs into someone else. Either those people are conquered or absorbed. Transportable food is needed. The people on the Mayflower didn't just "live off the sea" as they went across the Atlantic. Further, armies need food. Brushing up against someone else leads to conflict, or are all those Western movies about Indian Wars fiction?

Because animals have not been domesticated in Africa, there are no animals to domesticate? No analogue of the domestic dog in Africa? No analogue of cattle? No analogue of the horse? How is it that Hannibal for instance crossed the Alps with elephants as transport if the African elephant is not "domesticable"? You've still got a circular argument.

Not in the slightest. You've got a circular argument. Mine is this:

There are animals in Africa. The vast majority of them are non-domesticable. The closest analogue to the Horse is - get this - the Zebra and it is non-domesticable. Zebras are, however, trainable, barely.

Elephants as well are non-domesticable. They are, however, trainable, barely. Outside of a few modern zoos, they are not bred in captivity. Why is that? Why don't people ride Zebras?

What about meat animals? Africa had water buffalo and some various herbivores. Only one of them was domesticated. Antelopes, gazelles, and such are non-domesticable.

To be domesticated, an animal has to "imprint" on a human as opposed to another animal. There are very few species which actually do this. Heck, its taken a couple of thousand years of work just to get cats to come when they are called.

Do some research into this and you'll unlock the truth. You're arguing out of your hat on this, and I strongly suggest you stop because you're dead wrong.

I'll drop this one on you: What animals WERE domesticated in Africa that were not imported from elsewhere? Please provide a list. I'll give you a hint: It is very VERY short.

Oh, come on. The Irish couldn't grow wheat or raise horses? You might as well ask me to explain why there was never an Umbrian Empire or let me demand of you why the Mongols managed to conquer the known world. Good food supplies are important but they are not critical to either dominance or civilization. You're simply pushing Diamond's environmentalist dogma.

Not in the slightest. Are horses indigenous to Ireland? Is wheat indigenous to Ireland? Or were those imported? We know the answer. So now we ask simply "When were they imported?" and "For how long have the Irish been able to adapt what they imported to their environment?"

How about North America? When did the Native Americans acquire horses? What other animals could be domesticated here? Were there any 'beats of burden' that were domesticable in North America besides possibly the buffalo?

See, you need to know how and why things work and where they come from and how they spread.

For the Mongols, they adapted well to warfare and plunder. They stole everything they could from those societies they came in contact with. Thus, they expanded their technological base by plunder as opposed to invention.

Technology and resources come from one of two sources: You invent/discover it or you steal it from elsewhere. It doesn't matter which one of those is used. The net result is the same.

You mean the Middle East? Why didn't all the different peoples of the Middle East develop civilization simultaneously? Why did the Sumerians develop writing first? Did they have better wheat? Your thesis tries to prove too much, and thus proves nothing.

Not in the slightest and yes, the Sumerians had better agriculture than other cultures did. You need to examine the spread of things. Know where they got started and how they moved out. Not everything started in the same place.

And geographic barriers created isolated populations with distinct racial characteristics, including differing mental traits and abilities. Ooops! Have I carried your logic too far?
Not in the slightest. That too is an outgrowth of geography, but, one has to look at all the factors. That is just one, albeit a pretty big one.

Without good harbors, shipbuilding doesn't occur. How do you explain that as well?

I'm not sure political structures have that much to do with technological progress, as much as I value freedom. China was (and is) a very authoritarian and centralized society, yet up until about 500 years ago, it was as technologically advanced as the West.
And about 500 years ago, the Emperors of China got total control. They reversed a lot of things and by their edicts, made China go backward. They burned their fleets of ships and went into near-total isolation and put a near-total ban on technological improvements.

Sounds like you're proving that part of the theory for us.

This is a good discussion, but it seems you need a better grasp of ancient history and 'why things work the way they work' -- again -- I'd recommend reading Diamond's book and then coming back to discuss its contents.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   20:07:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: mirage (#9)

On domesticated animals again, this National Geographic article certainly seems to state that black Africa had native "domesticable" cattle which were in fact domesticated by black Africans before whitey with his wheat arrived:

The nature of genetic variation changed like the colors of a rainbow as the researchers looked at cattle from West Africa, Central Africa, and southern Africa. The greatest amount of genetic diversity was found among herds in Central Africa.

Based on the data, Hanotte and his colleagues concluded that people living in Central Africa developed cattle domestication on their own, and that the techniques—or the herders themselves—gradually migrated toward the west and the south, spreading domestication across the continent.

Mixed Origins

In looking at the wide genetic variation among African cattle, the researchers found evidence of interbreeding between cattle native to Africa and an imported breed.

Most modern African herds represent mixtures of two breeds: Africa's native cattle, called taurines (Bos taurus), and a slightly larger Asian breed, known as zebu (Bos indicus), which was domesticated before it arrived in Africa.

Long-distance trade across the Indian Ocean brought many domesticated plants and animals to Africa, including the chicken and camel and cereals such as finger millet and sorghum. Presumably, Hanotte said, trade also brought zebu bulls that farmers interbred with domesticated taurine cows, producing the mixed herds of today.

Some variation in the African herds is also attributable to European influences, Hanotte said. These genetic contributions came in the past few hundred years, during Europe's colonial influence in Africa.

Prof. Diamond---urgent--call your office...

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:08:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#14)

Lo and behold, there is: the Ethiopian wolf. Tell me why native Africans couldn't domesticate it.

What do you want to bet it was domesticated in Ethiopia, but never made it out of there?

How does something get from Ethiopia to Ghana? How do you get it there without vehicles?

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   20:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: DeaconBenjamin (#15)

2) In describing China as a very authoritarian and centralized society, isn't it important to observe that the area over which the Emperor had complete authority and power tended to wax and wane with the passage of time? It is my understanding that Imperial China was no Nazi Germany/USSR -- or even Red China -- in terms of having its commands obeyed to the furthest extent of its designated boundaries.

I didn't say it was totalitarian, but it was consistently authoritarian---both politically and culturally.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:10:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#18)

Most modern African herds represent mixtures of two breeds: Africa's native cattle, called taurines (Bos taurus), and a slightly larger Asian breed, known as zebu (Bos indicus), which was domesticated before it arrived in Africa.

Note: "domesticated before it arrived in Africa."

The article doesn't give timeframes, unfortunately. If it did, it would give a more complete picture and allow one to draw out the how/when/where of things.

It also doesn't say how successful the native cattle were or what latitude bands they inhabited. That data would be needed to draw out a better picture.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   20:12:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: mirage (#17)

Why don't people ride Zebras?

Actually it does have little to do with the inability to domesticate them..a zebra doesnt have withers.. which make them difficult to ride ..most donkees dont have withers either but are used more as pack animals than for riding..

http://www.lovelongears.com/zorse.html

Zipporah  posted on  2007-05-22   20:12:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: mirage (#19)

What do you want to bet it was domesticated in Ethiopia, but never made it out of there?

Oops! Have to make more assumptions to keep Diamond's thesis afloat, doncha? :P No, as far as I know it wasn't domesticated---but the issue is, was it "domesticable"? Do you have an answer?

How does something get from Ethiopia to Ghana? How do you get it there without vehicles?

Hmmm.... You're right! I guess the Bantu expansion is a myth, too, hunh, if they didn't have any Cadillacs to go in? :P (Psst! Btw, You're assuming the Ethiopian wolf's range is limited to Ethiopia, now aren't you? :P)

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:17:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: mirage (#21)

The article doesn't give timeframes, unfortunately. If it did, it would give a more complete picture and allow one to draw out the how/when/where of things.

It also doesn't say how successful the native cattle were or what latitude bands they inhabited. That data would be needed to draw out a better picture.

You're starting to bore me with your stubborn adherence to Diamond's thesis. Here's a passage from an on African history ca. 1000 AD:

By 1000, Bantu-speaking communities were forming polities in the more densely populated regions of eastern and central Africa, and they were expanding rapidly into southern Africa. Loans of cattle and livestock-based bridewealth payments were common means of building large followings and tying communities together. Cattle-keeping Bantu farmers predominated in central and southern Africa, and they shared economic, cultural, and political traditions.

Did you read the part about "cattle"? There were domesticated cattle in black Africa before whitey arrived with his wheat. There were other domesticated and domesticable species in Africa. But whether there were or there weren't, that has very little to do with explaining why black Africans never developed the civilization that "Eurasians" did.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:24:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: mirage (#17)

Eurasian expansion means the latitudes of the Mediterranean across Asia and Europe. As we know - plants and animals adapt for a latitude, not a longitude.

You're switching gears. There was no one Eurasian expansion of any population comparable to the Bantu expansion. I don't care if plants "adapt to latitude, not longitude"---you're not going to answer my arguments simply by parroting Diamond's platitudes. The issue is, did black Africans have sufficient resources to develop civilization comparable to "Eurasian" civilization if they had the mental capabilities of Eurasians? That's the only issue.

As for transportation, as a society expands, it runs into someone else. Either those people are conquered or absorbed. Transportable food is needed.

No, available food is needed. If you can grow your staple food anywhere in your range of expansion and at all times of the year, why do you have to worry about transporting it great distances?

What animals WERE domesticated in Africa that were not imported from elsewhere? Please provide a list. I'll give you a hint: It is very VERY short.

Again, you're trying to prove too much. Let's say cattle for example were imported into Africa after domestication elsewhere. If they had been imported by 1000 AD, as the article I cited you states, why did that not give Africans a developmental advantage at that point? They had a domesticated species which they could exploit---what does it matter at that point if the species came from elsewhere? Didn't the horse originate somewhere in Central Asia, and was imported into Europe?

Not in the slightest. Are horses indigenous to Ireland? Is wheat indigenous to Ireland? Or were those imported? We know the answer. So now we ask simply "When were they imported?" and "For how long have the Irish been able to adapt what they imported to their environment?"

That's a straw man in itself. The domestic horse was an import practically throughout its range of domestication. Your argument doesn't prove anything.

How about North America? When did the Native Americans acquire horses? What other animals could be domesticated here? Were there any 'beats of burden' that were domesticable in North America besides possibly the buffalo?

Ever hear of the llama?

For the Mongols, they adapted well to warfare and plunder. They stole everything they could from those societies they came in contact with. Thus, they expanded their technological base by plunder as opposed to invention.

Sounds like they had a damn good "technological base" to begin with if they were able to overcome those they "plundered" from. What, can't you explain the Mongols by reference to some superior strain of wheat or good riding horse?

Not in the slightest and yes, the Sumerians had better agriculture than other cultures did.

Circular again. Why? Because their wheat was better? Don't be absurd.

Without good harbors, shipbuilding doesn't occur. How do you explain that as well?

Africa doesn't have good natural harbors? Ever hear of Cape Town, Mombasa, Dar es Salaam? How did slave trading happen? How did the Arabs trade along Africa's east coast?

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:49:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Zipporah (#16)

Hmm I wonder if this was the ancestor of the saluki?

If not that species, a very similar one. The wolves of the southern latitudes are much smaller and more "dog-like" than the Eurasian wolf that is supposed to be the ancestor of our common domestic dog.

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-22   20:54:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#26)

The saluki are sight hounds along with several other African breeds .. trying to recall the another similar breed.. the body type is similar to the African wolf pic you posted..

Zipporah  posted on  2007-05-22   21:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#25)

Ever hear of the llama?

You're trying to show that the llama is North American?

Please, go right ahead.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-05-22   21:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Tauzero (#0)

It is very simple why Europeans progressed more rapidly than anyone else.

Jesus Christ.

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

echo5sierra  posted on  2007-05-22   21:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: mirage, Peetie Wheatstraw (#7)

Europeans were more adept at adapting things to their own needs than anyone else because the societies were organized in such a way that they could make use of it better than anyone else.

Correct. White societies are better organized.

Without a button, it's not a march.

Tauzero  posted on  2007-05-22   22:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Tauzero (#30)

Correct. White societies are better organized.

And why is that? Transportable food? Draft animals? Did white folks "change their whole latitude"? :P

Puissent tous les hommes se souvenir qu'ils sont frères!

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2007-05-23   10:01:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Peetie Wheatstraw, mirage (#31)

And why is that?

Perhaps a better question is: who wants to know? That's the answer I give when some stoned darkie calls me and asks "who is this?"

When people seek after why white societies are better organized, it's sometimes (rarely) out of genuine curiosity. Most often it's because they are uncomfortable with the fact. The seeking may be a distraction, a way to avoid facing the fact squarely, to find a way to change it.

But it's like the color of sky. Knowing why the sky is blue may have some useful applications, but knowing why doesn't mean that we can change it to something other than blue and certainly doesn't tell us that we should try.

Personally I like a blue sky. I take it as a given, and proceed from there.

Pretensions notwithstanding, people know IQ is exceedingly hard to change (let alone en masse) in a consciously directed way, and so those uncomfortable with the fact of better organized white societies will naturally discount IQ as a cause.

Without a button, it's not a march.

Tauzero  posted on  2007-05-23   16:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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