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Title: The Case for Bombing Iran: I hope and pray that President Bush will do it.
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URL Source: http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110010139
Published: May 30, 2007
Author: NORMAN PODHORETZ
Post Date: 2007-05-30 18:57:05 by BeAChooser
Keywords: None
Views: 415
Comments: 43
The Case for Bombing Iran: I hope and pray that President Bush will do it. BY NORMAN PODHORETZ Wednesday, May 30, 2007 12:01 a.m. EDT Although many persist in denying it, I continue to believe that what Sept 11, 2001, did was to plunge us headlong into nothing less than another world war. I call this new war World War IV, because I also believe that what is generally known as the Cold War was actually World War III, and that this one bears a closer resemblance to that great conflict than it does to World War II. Like the Cold War, as the military historian Eliot Cohen was the first to recognize, the one we are now in has ideological roots, pitting us against Islamofascism, yet another mutation of the totalitarian disease we defeated first in the shape of Nazism and fascism and then in the shape of communism; it is global in scope; it is being fought with a variety of weapons, not all of them military; and it is likely to go on for decades. What follows from this way of looking at the last five years is that the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be understood if they are regarded as self-contained wars in their own right. Instead we have to see them as fronts or theaters that have been opened up in the early stages of a protracted global struggle. The same thing is true of Iran. As the currently main center of the Islamofascist ideology against which we have been fighting since 9/11, and as (according to the State Department's latest annual report on the subject) the main sponsor of the terrorism that is Islamofascism's weapon of choice, Iran too is a front in World War IV. Moreover, its effort to build a nuclear arsenal makes it the potentially most dangerous one of all. The Iranians, of course, never cease denying that they intend to build a nuclear arsenal, and yet in the same breath they openly tell us what they intend to do with it. Their first priority, as repeatedly and unequivocally announced by their president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is to "wipe Israel off the map"--a feat that could not be accomplished by conventional weapons alone. But Ahmadinejad's ambitions are not confined to the destruction of Israel. He also wishes to dominate the greater Middle East, and thereby to control the oilfields of the region and the flow of oil out of it through the Persian Gulf. If he acquired a nuclear capability, he would not even have to use it in order to put all this within his reach. Intimidation and blackmail by themselves would do the trick. Nor are Ahmadinejad's ambitions merely regional in scope. He has a larger dream of extending the power and influence of Islam throughout Europe, and this too he hopes to accomplish by playing on the fear that resistance to Iran would lead to a nuclear war. And then, finally, comes the largest dream of all: what Ahmadinejad does not shrink from describing as "a world without America." Demented though he may be, I doubt that Ahmadinejad is so crazy as to imagine that he could wipe America off the map even if he had nuclear weapons. But what he probably does envisage is a diminution of the American will to oppose him: that is, if not a world without America, he will settle, at least in the short run, for a world without much American influence. Not surprisingly, the old American foreign-policy establishment and many others say that these dreams are nothing more than the fantasies of a madman. They also dismiss those who think otherwise as neoconservative alarmists trying to drag this country into another senseless war that is in the interest not of the United States but only of Israel. But the irony is that Ahmadinejad's dreams are more realistic than the dismissal of those dreams as merely insane delusions. To understand why, an analogy with World War III may help. At certain points in that earlier war, some of us feared that the Soviets might seize control of the oil fields of the Middle East, and that the West, faced with a choice between surrendering to their dominance or trying to stop them at the risk of a nuclear exchange, would choose surrender. In that case, we thought, the result would be what in those days went by the name of Finlandization. In Europe, where there were large Communist parties, Finlandization would take the form of bringing these parties to power so that they could establish "red Vichy" regimes like the one already in place in Finland--regimes whose subservience to the Soviet will in all things, domestic and foreign alike, would make military occupation unnecessary and would therefore preserve a minimal degree of national independence. In the United States, where there was no Communist Party to speak of, we speculated that Finlandization would take a subtler form. In the realm of foreign affairs, politicians and pundits would arise to celebrate the arrival of a new era of peace and friendship in which the Cold War policy of containment would be scrapped, thus giving the Soviets complete freedom to expand without encountering any significant obstacles. And in the realm of domestic affairs, Finlandization would mean that the only candidates running for office with a prayer of being elected would be those who promised to work toward a sociopolitical system more in harmony with the Soviet model than the unjust capitalist plutocracy under which we had been living. Of course, by the grace of God, the dissidents behind the Iron Curtain and Ronald Reagan, we won World War III and were therefore spared the depredations that Finlandization would have brought. Alas, we are far from knowing what the outcome of World War IV will be. But in the meantime, looking at Europe today, we already see the unfolding of a process analogous to Finlandization: it has been called, rightly, Islamization. Consider, for example, what happened when, only a few weeks ago, the Iranians captured 15 British sailors and marines and held them hostage. Did the Royal Navy, which once boasted that it ruled the waves, immediately retaliate against this blatant act of aggression, or even threaten to do so unless the captives were immediately released? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Indeed, using force was the last thing in the world the British contemplated doing, as they made sure to announce. Instead they relied on the "soft power" so beloved of "sophisticated" Europeans and their American fellow travelers. But then, as if this show of impotence were not humiliating enough, the British were unable even to mobilize any of that soft power. The European Union, of which they are a member, turned down their request to threaten Iran with a freeze of imports. As for the U.N., under whose very auspices they were patrolling the international waters in which the sailors were kidnapped, it once again showed its true colors by refusing even to condemn the Iranians. The most the Security Council could bring itself to do was to express "grave concern." Meanwhile, a member of the British cabinet was going the Security Council one better. While registering no objection to propaganda pictures of the one female hostage, who had been forced to shed her uniform and dress for the cameras in Muslim clothing, Health Secretary Patricia Hewitt pronounced it "deplorable" that she should have permitted herself to be photographed with a cigarette in her mouth. "This," said Hewitt, "sends completely the wrong message to our young people." According to John Bolton, our former ambassador to the U.N., the Iranians were testing the British to see if there would be any price to pay for committing what would once have been considered an act of war. Having received his answer, Ahmadinejad could now reap the additional benefit of, as the British commentator Daniel Johnson puts it, "posing as a benefactor" by releasing the hostages, even while ordering more attacks in Iraq and even while continuing to arm terrorist organizations, whether Shiite (Hezbollah) or Sunni (Hamas). For fanatical Shiites though Ahmadinejad and his ilk assuredly are, they are obviously willing to set sectarian differences aside when it comes to forging jihadist alliances against the infidels. If, then, under present circumstances Ahmadinejad could bring about the extraordinary degree of kowtowing that resulted from the kidnapping of the British sailors, what might he not accomplish with a nuclear arsenal behind him--nuclear bombs that could be fitted on missiles capable of reaching Europe? As to such a capability, Robert G. Joseph, the U.S. Special Envoy for Nuclear Non-Proliferation, tells us that Iran is "expanding what is already the largest offensive missile force in the region. Moreover, it is reported to be working closely with North Korea, the world's No. 1 missile proliferator, to develop even more capable ballistic missiles." This, Joseph goes on, is why "analysts agree that in the foreseeable future Iran will be armed with medium- and long-range ballistic missiles," and it is also why "we could wake up one morning to find that Iran is holding Berlin, Paris or London hostage to whatever its demands are then." As with Finlandization, Islamization extends to the domestic realm, too. In one recent illustration of this process, as reported in the British press, "schools in England are dropping the Holocaust from history lessons to avoid offending Muslim pupils . . . whose beliefs include Holocaust denial." But this is an equal-opportunity capitulation, since the schools are also eliminating lessons about the Crusades because "such lessons often contradict what is taught in local mosques." But why single out England? If anything, much more, and worse, has been going on in other European countries, including France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Denmark and the Netherlands. All of these countries have large and growing Muslim populations demanding that their religious values and sensibilities be accommodated at the expense of the traditional values of the West, and even in some instances of the law. Yet rather than insisting that, like all immigrant groups before them, they assimilate to Western norms, almost all European politicians have been cravenly giving in to the Muslims' outrageous demands. As in the realm of foreign affairs, if this much can be accomplished under present circumstances, what might not be done if the process were being backed by Iranian nuclear blackmail? Already some observers are warning that by the end of the 21st century the whole of Europe will be transformed into a place to which they give the name Eurabia. Whatever chance there may still be of heading off this eventuality would surely be lessened by the menacing shadow of an Iran armed with nuclear weapons, and only too ready to put them into the hands of the terrorist groups to whom it is even now supplying rockets and other explosive devices. And the United States? As would have been the case with Finlandization, we would experience a milder form of Islamization here at home. But not in the area of foreign policy. Like the Europeans, confronted by Islamofascists armed by Iran with nuclear weapons, we would become more and more hesitant to risk resisting the emergence of a world shaped by their will and tailored to their wishes. For even if Ahmadinejad did not yet have missiles with a long enough range to hit the United States, he would certainly be able to unleash a wave of nuclear terror against us. If he did, he would in all likelihood act through proxies, for whom he would with characteristic brazenness disclaim any responsibility even if the weapons used by the terrorists were to bear telltale markings identifying them as of Iranian origin. At the same time, the opponents of retaliation and other antiwar forces would rush to point out that there was good reason to accept this disclaimer and, markings or no markings (could they not have been forged?), no really solid evidence to refute it. In any event, in these same centers of opinion, such a scenario is regarded as utter nonsense. In their view, none of the things it envisages would follow even if Ahmadinejad should get the bomb, because the fear of retaliation would deter him from attacking us just as it deterred the Soviets in World War III. For our part, moreover, the knowledge that we were safe from attack would preclude any danger of our falling into anything like Islamization. But listen to what Bernard Lewis, the greatest authority of our time on the Islamic world, has to say in this context on the subject of deterrence: MAD, mutual assured destruction, [was effective] right through the cold war. Both sides had nuclear weapons. Neither side used them, because both sides knew the other would retaliate in kind. This will not work with a religious fanatic [like Ahmadinejad]. For him, mutual assured destruction is not a deterrent, it is an inducement. We know already that [Iran's leaders] do not give a damn about killing their own people in great numbers. We have seen it again and again. In the final scenario, and this applies all the more strongly if they kill large numbers of their own people, they are doing them a favor. They are giving them a quick free pass to heaven and all its delights. Nor are they inhibited by a love of country: We do not worship Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land [Iran] burn. I say let this land go up in smoke, provided Islam emerges triumphant in the rest of the world. These were the words of the Ayatollah Khomeini, who ruled Iran from 1979 to 1989, and there is no reason to suppose that his disciple Ahmadinejad feels any differently. Still less would deterrence work where Israel was concerned. For as the Ayatollah Rafsanjani (who is supposedly a "pragmatic conservative") has declared: If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession . . . application of an atomic bomb would not leave anything in Israel, but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world. In other words, Israel would be destroyed in a nuclear exchange, but Iran would survive. In spite of all this, we keep hearing that all would be well if only we agreed--in the currently fashionable lingo--to "engage" with Iran, and that even if the worst came to the worst we could--to revert to the same lingo--"live" with a nuclear Iran. It is when such things are being said that, alongside the resemblance between now and World War III, a parallel also becomes evident between now and the eve of World War II. By 1938, Germany under Adolf Hitler had for some years been rearming in defiance of its obligations under the Versailles treaty and other international agreements. Yet even though Hitler in :"Mein Kampf" had explicitly spelled out the goals he was now preparing to pursue, scarcely anyone took him seriously. To the imminent victims of the war he was soon to start, Hitler's book and his inflammatory speeches were nothing more than braggadocio or, to use the more colorful word Hannah Arendt once applied to Adolf Eichmann, rodomontade: the kind of red meat any politician might throw to his constituents at home. Hitler might sound at times like a madman, but in reality he was a shrewd operator with whom one could--in the notorious term coined by the London Times--"do business." The business that was done under this assumption was the Munich Agreement of 1938, which the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain declared had brought "peace in our time." It was thanks to Munich that "appeasement" became one of the dirtiest words in the whole of our political vocabulary. Yet appeasement had always been an important and entirely respectable tool of diplomacy, signifying the avoidance of war through the alleviation of the other side's grievances. If Hitler had been what his eventual victims imagined he was--that is, a conventional statesman pursuing limited aims and using the threat of war only as a way of strengthening his bargaining position--it would indeed have been possible to appease him and thereby to head off the outbreak of another war. But Hitler was not a conventional statesman and, although for tactical reasons he would sometimes pretend otherwise, he did not have limited aims. He was a revolutionary seeking to overturn the going international system and to replace it with a new order dominated by Germany, which also meant the political culture of Nazism. As such, he offered only two choices: resistance or submission. Finding this reality unbearable, the world persuaded itself that there was a way out, a third alternative, in negotiations. But given Hitler's objectives, and his barely concealed lust for war, negotiating with him could not conceivably have led to peace. It could have had only one outcome, which was to buy him more time to start a war under more favorable conditions. As most historians now agree, if he had been taken at his own word about his true intentions, he could have been stopped earlier and defeated at an infinitely lower cost. Which brings us back to Ahmadinejad. Like Hitler, he is a revolutionary whose objective is to overturn the going international system and to replace it in the fullness of time with a new order dominated by Iran and ruled by the religio-political culture of Islamofascism. Like Hitler, too, he is entirely open about his intentions, although--again like Hitler--he sometimes pretends that he wants nothing more than his country's just due. In the case of Hitler in 1938, this pretense took the form of claiming that no further demands would be made if sovereignty over the Sudetenland were transferred from Czechoslovakia to Germany. In the case of Ahmadinejad, the pretense takes the form of claiming that Iran is building nuclear facilities only for peaceful purposes and not for the production of bombs. But here we come upon an interesting difference between then and now. Whereas in the late 1930s almost everyone believed, or talked himself into believing, that Hitler was telling the truth when he said he had no further demands to make after Munich, no one believes that Ahmadinejad is telling the truth when he says that Iran has no wish to develop a nuclear arsenal. In addition, virtually everyone agrees that it would be best if he were stopped, only not, God forbid, with military force--not now, and not ever. But if military force is ruled out, what is supposed to do the job? Well, to begin with, there is that good old standby, diplomacy. And so, for 3 1/2 years, even predating the accession of Ahmadinejad to the presidency, the diplomatic gavotte has been danced with Iran, in negotiations whose carrot-and-stick details no one can remember--not even, I suspect, the parties involved. But since, to say it again, Ahmadinejad is a revolutionary with unlimited aims and not a statesman with whom we can "do business," all this negotiating has had the same result as Munich had with Hitler. That is, it has bought the Iranians more time in which they have moved closer and closer to developing nuclear weapons. Then there are sanctions. As it happens, sanctions have very rarely worked in the past. Worse yet, they have usually ended up hurting the hapless people of the targeted country while leaving the leadership unscathed. Nevertheless, much hope has been invested in them as a way of bringing Ahmadinejad to heel. Yet thanks to the resistance of Russia and China, both of which have reasons of their own to go easy on Iran, it has proved enormously difficult for the Security Council to impose sanctions that could even conceivably be effective. At first, the only measures to which Russia and China would agree were much too limited even to bite. Then, as Iran continued to defy Security Council resolutions and to block inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency that it was bound by treaty to permit, not even the Russians and the Chinese were able to hold out against stronger sanctions. Once more, however, these have had little or no effect on the progress Iran is making toward the development of a nuclear arsenal. On the contrary: they, too, have bought the Iranians additional time in which to move ahead. Since hope springs eternal, some now believe that the answer lies in more punishing sanctions. This time, however, their purpose would be not to force Iran into compliance, but to provoke an internal uprising against Ahmadinejad and the regime as a whole. Those who advocate this course tell us that the "mullocracy" is very unpopular, especially with young people, who make up a majority of Iran's population. They tell us that these young people would like nothing better than to get rid of the oppressive and repressive and corrupt regime under which they now live and to replace it with a democratic system. And they tell us, finally, that if Iran were so transformed, we would have nothing to fear from it even if it were to acquire nuclear weapons. Once upon a time, under the influence of Bernard Lewis and others I respect, I too subscribed to this school of thought. But after three years and more of waiting for the insurrection they assured us back then was on the verge of erupting, I have lost confidence in their prediction. Some of them blame the Bush administration for not doing enough to encourage an uprising, which is why they have now transferred their hopes to sanctions that would inflict so much damage on the Iranian economy that the entire populace would rise up against the rulers. Yet whether or not this might happen under such circumstances, there is simply no chance of getting Russia and China, or the Europeans for that matter, to agree to the kind of sanctions that are the necessary precondition. At the outset I stipulated that the weapons with which we are fighting World War IV are not all military--that they also include economic, diplomatic, and other nonmilitary instruments of power. In exerting pressure for reform on countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, these nonmilitary instruments are the right ones to use. But it should be clear by now to any observer not in denial that Iran is not such a country. As we know from Iran's defiance of the Security Council and the IAEA even while the United States has been warning Ahmadinejad that "all options" remain on the table, ultimatums and threats of force can no more stop him than negotiations and sanctions have managed to do. Like them, all they accomplish is to buy him more time. In short, the plain and brutal truth is that if Iran is to be prevented from developing a nuclear arsenal, there is no alternative to the actual use of military force--any more than there was an alternative to force if Hitler was to be stopped in 1938. Since a ground invasion of Iran must be ruled out for many different reasons, the job would have to be done, if it is to be done at all, by a campaign of air strikes. Furthermore, because Iran's nuclear facilities are dispersed, and because some of them are underground, many sorties and bunker-busting munitions would be required. And because such a campaign is beyond the capabilities of Israel, and the will, let alone the courage, of any of our other allies, it could be carried out only by the United States. Even then, we would probably be unable to get at all the underground facilities, which means that, if Iran were still intent on going nuclear, it would not have to start over again from scratch. But a bombing campaign would without question set back its nuclear program for years to come, and might even lead to the overthrow of the mullahs. The opponents of bombing--not just the usual suspects but many both here and in Israel who have no illusions about the nature and intentions and potential capabilities of the Iranian regime--disagree that it might end in the overthrow of the mullocracy. On the contrary, they are certain that all Iranians, even the democratic dissidents, would be impelled to rally around the flag. And this is only one of the worst-case scenarios they envisage. To wit: Iran would retaliate by increasing the trouble it is already making for us in Iraq. It would attack Israel with missiles armed with nonnuclear warheads but possibly containing biological or chemical weapons. There would be a vast increase in the price of oil, with catastrophic consequences for every economy in the world, very much including our own. The worldwide outcry against the inevitable civilian casualties would make the anti-Americanism of today look like a lovefest. I readily admit that it would be foolish to discount any or all of these scenarios. Each of them is, alas, only too plausible. Nevertheless, there is a good response to them, and it is the one given by John McCain. The only thing worse than bombing Iran, McCain has declared, is allowing Iran to get the bomb. And yet those of us who agree with McCain are left with the question of whether there is still time. If we believe the Iranians, the answer is no. In early April, at Iran's Nuclear Day festivities, Ahmadinejad announced that the point of no return in the nuclearization process had been reached. If this is true, it means that Iran is only a small step away from producing nuclear weapons. But even supposing that Ahmadinejad is bluffing, in order to convince the world that it is already too late to stop him, how long will it take before he actually turns out to have a winning hand? If we believe the CIA, perhaps as much as 10 years. But CIA estimates have so often been wrong that they are hardly more credible than the boasts of Ahmadinejad. Other estimates by other experts fall within the range of a few months to six years. Which is to say that no one really knows. And because no one really knows, the only prudent--indeed, the only responsible--course is to assume that Ahmadinejad may not be bluffing, or may only be exaggerating a bit, and to strike at him as soon as it is logistically possible. In his 2002 State of the Union address, President Bush made a promise: We'll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world's most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world's most destructive weapons. In that speech, the president was referring to Iraq, but he has made it clear on a number of subsequent occasions that the same principle applies to Iran. Indeed, he has gone so far as to say that if we permit Iran to build a nuclear arsenal, people 50 years from now will look back and wonder how we of this generation could have allowed such a thing to happen, and they will rightly judge us as harshly as we today judge the British and the French for what they did and what they failed to do at Munich in 1938. I find it hard to understand why George W. Bush would have put himself so squarely in the dock of history on this issue if he were resigned to leaving office with Iran in possession of nuclear weapons, or with the ability to build them. Accordingly, my guess is that he intends, within the next 21 months, to order air strikes against the Iranian nuclear facilities from the three U.S. aircraft carriers already sitting nearby. But if that is what he has in mind, why is he spending all this time doing the diplomatic dance and wasting so much energy on getting the Russians and the Chinese to sign on to sanctions? The reason, I suspect, is that--to borrow a phrase from Robert Kagan--he has been "giving futility its chance." Not that this is necessarily a cynical ploy. For it may well be that he has entertained the remote possibility of a diplomatic solution under which Iran would follow the example of Libya in voluntarily giving up its nuclear program. Besides, once having played out the diplomatic string, and thereby having demonstrated that to him force is truly a last resort, Mr. Bush would be in a stronger political position to endorse John McCain's formula that the only thing worse than bombing Iran would be allowing Iran to build a nuclear bomb--and not just to endorse that assessment, but to act on it. If this is what Mr. Bush intends to do, it goes, or should go, without saying that his overriding purpose is to ensure the security of this country in accordance with the vow he took upon becoming president, and in line with his pledge not to stand by while one of the world's most dangerous regimes threatens us with one of the world's most dangerous weapons. But there is, it has been reported, another consideration that is driving Mr. Bush. According to a recent news story in the New York Times, for example, Bush has taken to heart what "officials from 21 governments in and around the Middle East warned at a meeting of Arab leaders in March"--namely, "that Iran's drive for atomic technology could result in the beginning of 'a grave and destructive nuclear arms race in the region.' " Which is to say that he fears that local resistance to Iran's bid for hegemony in the greater Middle East through the acquisition of nuclear weapons could have even more dangerous consequences than a passive capitulation to that bid by the Arab countries. For resistance would spell the doom of all efforts to stop the spread of nuclear weapons, and it would vastly increase the chances of their use. I have no doubt that this ominous prospect figures prominently in the president's calculations. But it seems evident to me that the survival of Israel, a country to which George W. Bush has been friendlier than any president before him, is also of major concern to him--a concern fully coincident with his worries over a Middle Eastern arms race. Much of the world has greeted Ahmadinejad's promise to wipe Israel off the map with something close to insouciance. In fact, it could almost be said of the Europeans that they have been more upset by Ahmadinejad's denial that a Holocaust took place 60 years ago than by his determination to set off one of his own as soon as he acquires the means to do so. In some of European countries, Holocaust denial is a crime, and the European Union only recently endorsed that position. Yet for all their retrospective remorse over the wholesale slaughter of Jews back then, the Europeans seem no readier to lift a finger to prevent a second Holocaust than they were the first time around. Not so George W. Bush, a man who knows evil when he sees it and who has demonstrated an unfailingly courageous willingness to endure vilification and contumely in setting his face against it. It now remains to be seen whether this president, battered more mercilessly and with less justification than any other in living memory, and weakened politically by the enemies of his policy in the Middle East in general and Iraq in particular, will find it possible to take the only action that can stop Iran from following through on its evil intentions both toward us and toward Israel. As an American and as a Jew, I pray with all my heart that he will. Mr. Podhoretz is editor-at-large of Commentary. His new book, "World War IV: The Long Struggle Against Islamofascism," will be released by Doubleday on Sept. 11. This essay, in somewhat different form, was delivered as an address at a conference, "Is It 1938 Again?," held by the Center for Jewish Studies at Queens College, City University of New York, in April.
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#1. To: BeAChooser (#0)
What an obvious case of projection here! Podhoretz is a greedy, highly dishonest, blood-thristy evil bastard. He oozes these traits in his writings.
Anybody know whether Podhoretz took part in that neocon conference on Iran that took place on Grand Bahama Island last weekend?
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
It appears you and NORMAN PODHORETZ have a great deal in common. Neither of you has served a day in uniform,yet there is no limit on the amount of blood you want others to shed for Israel. I loathe chickenhawk cowards like you and Podhoretz.
Bernard Lewis was apparently one of Cheney's chief advisers in the runup to the Iraq war.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Neither of you has served a day in uniform,yet there is no limit on the amount of blood you want others to shed for Israel. I loathe chickenhawk cowards like you and Podhoretz. you speak for me, honway.
I loathe chickenhawk cowards like you and Podhoretz. AMEN!
"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." ~George Washington
Why do crybabies like Podzie always scream oppression when they are simply forced to act human? What a sickening example he is of homo sapiens. I'll kick in $10 for a flea collar just to help him make the mental time leap forward to victorian era, granted that parasites are the least of his problems, flukes excluded.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
Why don't you peruse the post tom007 did about his nephew...and what war based upon bullshit does to our soldiers.. The RW whackos like you beg for war.. and hide behind your monitors.. why dont you join? Why dont you put your ass on the line? there is NO reason to attack Iran as there was NO reason to invade Iraq.. the BS that you and those like you about advocating war disgusts me..
Because he and they are "better than us". They are the "deciders", and we are the "decidees". They sit in air-conditioned offices and bang on their computer keyboards, and the rest of us get to live with and suffer from their decisions. When will this finally change? When the "decidees" finally have a bellyful of it, and start making decisions for themselves, the first decision being to tell the "deciders" to go directly to Hell.
But Ahmadinejad's ambitions are not confined to the destruction of Israel. He also wishes to dominate the greater Middle East, and thereby to control the oilfields of the region and the flow of oil out of it through the Persian Gulf. If he acquired a nuclear capability, he would not even have to use it in order to put all this within his reach. Intimidation and blackmail by themselves would do the trick.
#2. To: Diana (#1)
#3. To: BeAChooser (#0)
As an American and as a Jew, I pray with all my heart that he will.
#4. To: honway (#3)
But listen to what Bernard Lewis, the greatest authority of our time on the Islamic world, has to say in this context on the subject of deterrence:
#5. To: honway (#3)
It appears you and NORMAN PODHORETZ have a great deal in common.
#6. To: honway (#3)
Neither of you has served a day in uniform,yet there is no limit on the amount of blood you want others to shed for Israel.
#7. To: BeAChooser (#0)
And the United States? As would have been the case with Finlandization, we would experience a milder form of Islamization here at home. But not in the area of foreign policy. Like the Europeans, confronted by Islamofascists armed by Iran with nuclear weapons, we would become more and more hesitant to risk resisting the emergence of a world shaped by their will and tailored to their wishes.
#8. To: BeAChooser (#0)
(Edited)
#9. To: Zipporah (#8)
Why dont you put your ass on the line?
 | Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#10. To: BeAChooser (#0)
And of course a good portion of the article contains references and comparisons to Hitler. What a bunch of hysterical BS.
#11. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
Ain't Democracy grand? I think the ancients had it right with city-states as the proper form of government, the nation-state seems to be a creation intended soley for exploitation. Self-interest works so well on the microeconomic level, why shouldn't it be applied to macroeconomics. It should, but isn't; and I blame vested interests, but that's a whole other disjointed missive.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#12. To: all (#11)
For A New Holocaust)
From JB Campbell
jb_campbell@yahoo.com
2-17-7
#13. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
.. hmmm now I envision something kinda like this :P 
#14. To: BeAChooser (#0) (Edited)
Once again Podhoretz is dishonest. He conveienently fails to mention the German/Russian non ageression agreement of 1939 that allowed Germany and Russia to begin the WW2 as partners.
" The business that was done under this assumption was the Munich Agreement of 1938, which the British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain declared had brought "peace in our time."
#15. To: Cynicom (#14)
Another weird neocon trait, the need to elevate Churchill to exalted status. Those fuckers are definitely a cult.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#16. To: Jethro Tull (#12)
Wow, sounds like a threat, deport the bastard to Tunesia!
Meanwhile, http://Townhall.com columnist Keven McCullough has prophesized that electing a Democratic president in 2008 surely will result in several major American cities suffering nuclear attacks from terrorists.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#17. To: BeAChooser (#0) (Edited)
Norman, like his wife Midge Decter and his son John, is a traitor, a coward, and a spy. Oh, I forgot -- they're all ugly.
Freeper motto: I read, but do not understand, I write, but make no sense, I think, but nothing happens.
#18. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
It's a long way to Hell when you are forced to hang out for a while. When the "decidees" finally have a bellyful of it, and start making decisions for themselves, the first decision being to tell the "deciders" to go directly to Hell.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
#19. To: Dakmar (#16)
Sounds like one of those campy Bob Hope and Bing Crosby flicks from the 40s.
deport the bastard to Tunesia!
#20. To: YertleTurtle (#17) (Edited)
Who is Gertrude Himmelfarb and no Googleing.
#21. To: Jethro Tull (#20)
I can't remember offhand, but I'll bet a lot of money she is an ugly Jewish woman, at the very least.
Gertrude Himmelfarb
Freeper motto: I read, but do not understand, I write, but make no sense, I think, but nothing happens.
#22. To: YertleTurtle (#21)
William Kristol mother. A more ugly yenta I've never seen.
#23. To: Jethro Tull (#22)
red diapers run rampant...film at eleven
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#24. To: BeAChooser (#0)
What an ignorant puke.
Which brings us back to Ahmadinejad. Like Hitler, he is a revolutionary whose objective is to overturn the going international system and to replace it in the fullness of time with a new order dominated by Iran and ruled by the religio-political culture of Islamofascism.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
#25. To: Jethro Tull (#22)
Bill Kristol looks like a typical yhid, so what else can we expect. ;0)
William Kristol mother. A more ugly yenta I've never seen.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
#26. To: Jethro Tull (#22)
The way these people are inbreeding they're going to end up looking like, and being as smart as, my pug.
William Kristol mother. A more ugly yenta I've never seen.
Freeper motto: I read, but do not understand, I write, but make no sense, I think, but nothing happens.
#27. To: BTP Holdings (#25) (Edited)
Wow, so BAC is a gay traitor now? Should have known...
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#28. To: Dakmar, BTP Holdings (#23)
William Kristol, he of the perpetual grin. I understand he’s like 5’6” with a smeckle no bigger than a cocktail frank.
#29. To: Jethro Tull (#28)
LOL
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
#30. To: YertleTurtle (#26)
I love them but they do remind me of the movie, "Men in Black"
pugs
#31. To: BTP Holdings (#24)
the hollow ring of a giant sewer pipe...
Which brings us back to Ahmadinejad. Like Hitler, he is a revolutionary whose objective is to overturn the going international system and to replace it in the fullness of time with a new order dominated by Iran and ruled by the religio-political culture of Islamofascism.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#32. To: christine (#5)
Can you ban this asshole ??? Can we vote ???
RON PAUL or REVOLUTION
#33. To: Jethro Tull (#28)
Sometimes he looks like he has coldcuts taped to a gaping hole in his face. That must be on the "liberal" corporate propo fountains I guess.
William Kristol, he of the perpetual grin.
"Be just and if you can't be just, be arbitrary." - William S Burroughs
#34. To: Dakmar (#33)
#35. To: BeAChooser (#0)
If you're going to do it at all, then be sure to do it "right" by killing every man, woman and child in the country of Iran. But if you're not going to do it "right", then don't you dare fire a single shot as you'll just be angering them and further endangering us all. Choose wisely. (I already have).
The Case for Bombing Iran: I hope and pray that President Bush will do it.
#36. To: BeAChooser (#0)
You of course know that this is a deliberate, bald faced lie told with the speficic intent to mislead the American people. And the fact that you try to foist this lie on us makes you as big a liar, and as sleazy a liar as the author. But this doesn't bother you and it doesn't surprise us. However ... the fact that you are forced to use this type of scummy dishonesty to push your ideology should tell you something about your ideology. And if you cannot push your ideology without this sort of childish dishonesty, why should we dirty ourselves up by accepting it?
Their first priority, as repeatedly and unequivocally announced by their president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is to "wipe Israel off the map"--a feat that could not be accomplished by conventional weapons alone.
.
#37. To: Neil McIver (#35)
But if you're not going to do it "right", then don't you dare fire a single shot as you'll just be angering them and further endangering us all. After the US invasion of Iraq started, I stated much of the same. Bomb them into 'submission' from day one or you haven't a hope in hell of 'liberating' that country.
If you're going to do it at all, then be sure to do it "right" by killing every man, woman and child in the country of Iran.
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
#38. To: BeAChooser (#0)
by Wisper http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/5/30/135753/935 Wed May 30, 2007 at 11:02:09 AM PDT Mr. Podhoretz’s op-ed piece in the Wall Street Journal is a harrowing glimpse into the false logic and backwards-compatible rationale that first got us into Iraq and is now rushing us pell-mell into Iran. For the neocons everything must be framed in terms of war, fear and a life or death struggle that we are about to lose if we do not follow their advice. No objective can be pursued as a general interest, a mutual good, or in the hopes of a rational outcome. Diplomacy and peace or relics of an age gone by. Everything is now about threat assessment, false courage, and the need to define that which you oppose as an "evil" which must be destroyed; and destroyed not in a metaphorical sense, but literally and physically bombed, shot, and killed. Mr. Podhoretz tries ever-so-hard to equate this new perceived threat to the great threats we faced from Hitler and the USSR, yet conveniently ignoring facts like that the entire world joined us in fighting Nazism or that our decades long opposition to Soviet Communism was painstakingly done in an effort to avoid open conflict, mass casualties or uncontrollable escalation. It was a strategy of containment, diplomatic maneuvering, and military deterrence. History has come to hold both of these events as two of the greatest victories in the history of the world, but rather then learn from them, Mr. Podhoretz seeks only to borrow their glory and siphon their nobility with cheap analogies and pale lip-service. However, not even the mantle of the "Greatest Generation" nor the recycled fear of Mutual Assured Destruction can cover these failed policies or mask the Vietnamesque stink coming off of their results. It is no surprise then that he begins his house of cards argument by first deftly renaming the Cold War and calling it World War III, lest people remember the very reason it was called "cold" in the first place. From there it’s a simple ideological leap to call this new conflict World War IV and in the single blink of a neocon’s reptilian eye this whole foreign policy catastrophe is now heroically rebranded as the grandchild of that great global struggle of Western Democracy vs. Totalitarian Nazism. All you need at that point are some pot shots at diplomacy, disgraceful attempts to raise the spectre of the Holocaust, a dig at Neville Chamberlain for good measure, some backhanded insults at effete Europeans and their ilk, and if you can work some snide derision at "appeasement" so much the better. But wait... I’m getting ahead of myself. The basic tenet of Mr. Podhoretz entire argument is that once Iran acquires nuclear weapons, it will be impossible to stop them from doing anything they want as they spread an Iranian Dominated Regime, first throughout the Middle East and then throughout Europe which will come to be known as "Eurabia" once it is firmly under the heel of the Ayatollah. He backs up this doom and gloom scenario with paper-thin evidence about how this can not be avoided by pointing out a few key observations. The first is that Great Britain didn’t immediately attack Iran when 15 British sailors were taken hostage. Then there is the fact that Iran can not be swayed through deterrence because of Ahmadinejad’s apocalyptic mindset and the fact that Muslims place their allegiance to Allah over any ties or patriotism or nationalism. Third is the a priori assertion that diplomacy and sanctions are nothing but efforts to "give futility its chance". These are all prismed through very selectively cherry-picked analogies to Hitler, the USSR and founded on the already accepted premise that pre-emptive war is A-OK. First, his blatant disregard for England and anything else European. Iran took 16 sailors captive off the its coast in waters they claimed to be Iranian and we claimed to be Iraqi. They then notified Britain and held these prisoners while Iranian and British officials worked out the terms of release. The end result was that all 16 were released unharmed and no further military conflict was initiated or escalated over the event. Mr Podhoretz describes this as "a show of impotence" and "humiliating" and derides their decision to use "soft power so beloved of sophisticated Europeans and their American fellow travelers". So not only are the Europeans weak and soft and humiliatingly impotent but so are Americans that travel to Europe? Leaving that aside, Mr. Podhoretz clearly would have been more impressed with an instant retaliation or at least a threat to do so if they were not released because that’s what a real power (presumably like America) would have the courage to do. Perhaps Mr. Podhoretz was equally humiliated by George Bush when the US negotiated the release of 24 American airmen that were held as a result of a down intelligence plane near Hainan, China. Bush secured their release with an apology for the breach of Chinese airspace, an expressed appreciation for "China’s efforts to see to the well-being of our crew" and agreeing to meet to discuss China’s concerns about American surveillance. So instead of a diplomatic success of getting 24 American citizens home safely and averting any kind of ramped hostilities with another country, this is a disgusting capitulation when we should have "immediately retaliated against this blatant act of aggression". I won’t even try to imagine the debilitating shame he must have felt when Iran held over 50 Americans hostage for 444 days back in 1979. Clearly we should have promptly invaded their country at such an outrage and diplomacy be damned. This seems a bit of reckless saber-rattling by someone who has never even held a saber. In the middle of a massive conflict in Iraq that is spiraling out of control, rising sentiments against the West, and constant worry that the Iraq War will spill over into a regional conflict, why in the world would you want Britain to suddenly pounce in and attack another country over 16 individuals that were not being harmed when Iran initiated diplomatic talks themselves?!? Sure Ahmadinejad played up the whole benefactor thing about how gracious he was to release them but we knew he’d do that as nothing more then political theater. The fact is that 16 Brits came home safely and Iran is still officially on the sideline while the Iraq war continues. Diplomacy has a purpose and this is a clear example of it. Nonetheless, this is used to put forth this complete stretch to absurdity: If, then under present circumstances Ahmadinejad could bring about the extraordinary degree of kowtowing that resulted from the kidnapping of the British sailors, what might he not accomplish with a nuclear arsenal behind him--nuclear bombs that could be fitted on missiles capable of reaching Europe? Which assumes that the world’s response to a media-focused publicly announced event involving 16 unharmed soldiers in the middle of an on-going conflict would be the same we would have to a nation threatening nuclear annihilation of an entire country or continent. The last nation we faced that threatened any kind of nuclear attack was the USSR. I don’t seem to recall any kind of backing down in the face of that. I seem to remember us winning the Cold War. Sorry... I mean World War III. Winning the cold war without a single direct engagement and not having even one nuclear weapon fired on either side must be too old-fashioned for Mr. Podhoretz. Deterrence is clearly part of that Pre-9/11 World we hear derided so often. Aside from the fact that the only "experts" quoted in this article are John Bolton and Bernard Lewis, both affirmed supporters of the Iraqi War (which has turned out just oh so well and right on point as predicted), and Robert Joseph, who as part of the National Institute for Public Policy advocates using tactical nuclear weapons as part of the standard US Arsenal, the logic used doesn’t hold up when it is consistent, which is fine I guess because consistent logic doesn’t make much of a showing in Mr. Podhoretz’s argument. For one, in an attempt to back up his claims about the fanaticism we face, he makes drags out an old quote from Khomeini about how they "Do not worhip Iran, we worship Allah. For patriotism is another name for paganism. I say let this land burn." But then eight paragraphs later (in true accordance with Godwin’s Law) compares Ahmadinejad to Hitler as being a "revolutionary whose objective is to overturn the going international system and to replace it in the fullness of time with a new order dominated by Iran". Or later in the article when he gallantly admits to the possibility that in the face of a US attack "all Iranians, even the democratic dissidents, would be impelled to rally around the flag." But yet they have so little regard for nationalism that the idea that a retaliation for any nuclear aggression would be the complete and utter destruction of Iran would have no effect? He also talks about how their religious views are so radically fundamental that they have no fear of death and will gladly die in the name of Islam since fighting the infidel guarantees their place in heaven. I believe that was the same logic about the irrepressible morale we would face in the Gulf War when we went in to liberate Kuwait. Thousands of Iraqi soldiers oh-so-eager to die for their God that we would never get them to give up their fight. So says the fanatics, but what did we see when we got there? Regular soldiers not 100% in love with the idea of facing the US Military for someone else’s political gain and so anxious to get out of it alive that they were surrendering to CNN crews. This is simply an attempt to play up the Iranians as rabid fanatics waiting for any chance to die for their cause. They can not be reasoned with. They can not be spoken to. They can only be fought. This isn’t reason; this is demonization. I’m sure there are many Islamic Fundamentalists that feel that way. but I’m not so sure there aren’t Christian Fundamentalists in America that don’t reciprocate it. But there are also many Iranian civilians who do not want war. Who have no more desire to kill anyone, American or other wise, then they do to be killed themselves, by Americans or otherwise. And I suspect that there is also a sizeable portion of the population that doesn’t feel that strongly one way or the other but as soon as bombs start falling on their cities or tanks roll into Tehran will start siding a whole lot with the former then they do with the latter. Lastly, and most profusely, Mr. Podhoretz, spends most of his article condemning diplomacy. He equates it to appeasement. He calls it futile. In Podhoretz’s world, sanctions are useless and never work (except in Libya) and every nuclear threat must be faced with immediate military action (except South Korea) and nonmilitary instruments of power are only good to "exert pressure for reform on countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia" (which are our allies last time I checked). The idea of allowing their own internal factions to bring about a regime change is also discarded as he has lost face that it hasn’t happened in 3½ whole years. (because the revolution from theocracy to Jeffersonian Democracy should only take a few years especially if you speed it up with military force.. just look how far and how fast Iraq has come.) Allow me to dispense with the item by item refutation and get to my main point. This whole mindset is based on one premise, and lest I be accused of straw manning their well-founded argument, I’ll allow Mr. Podhoretz to explain it himself. "What follows from this way of looking at the last five years is that the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be understood if they are regarded as self-contained wars in their own right. Instead we have to see them as fronts or theaters that have been opened up in the early stages of a protracted global struggle." But the flaw with this argument is its open-endedness. Anything that happens anywhere in the world is now part of this global struggle. Were the riots in France part of Ahmandinejad’s mad scheming to rule the world? Is Chavez yet another "mutation of the totalitarian disease"? Nothing can ever be a mistake or error when everything is part of this "global struggle". But the truth is that Iraq is not a front or theatre against terrorism. It was a misguided side trek that has taken us away from our goal. It has made us less safe. It has emboldened our enemy and is bankrupting us. We could have fought Al Qaida and Bin Laden without ever stepping foot in Iraq. "And the frightening part of this neocon belief, as even Mr. Podhoretz admits, is that they realize that a possible outcome would be a "world outcry against the inevitable civilian casualties [that] would make the anti-Americanism of today look like a lovefest." Yes, Mr. Podhoretz you are right. That will happen and in part is already happening today. And what do you think the response will be? A formal letter of protest? A sharply worded column in an Iranian newspaper? No. It will be more attacks and more radical militants like Ahmadinejad will ride that Anti-Americanism to power. This will in turn require further military action from us as we drift further and further away from our allies. The same allies I would point out that you abrasively refer to as weak and effete and soft and lacking courage and foolishly dedicated to diplomacy and appeasement. Thus the self-sustaining cycle of constant and global war against the ephemeral noun of Terrorism will continue through what you will probably come to refer to as World War Five, and Six, and Seven, and Twelve and Fifteen and so on and so on. Which I’m not so sure isn’t your real goal after all.....
Fear and False Choices: More Right Wing Deathmongering from Podhoretz.
Bunch of internet bums ... grand jury --- opium den ! ~ byeltsin
#39. To: BeAChooser (#0)
And in the name of the god who shall be nameless, I call you all to another Crusade to make the world safe for the warshitters of that nameless god! Really hard to believe anyone could post such drivel and expect anyone would take it serious. A call to a Crusade just don cut it with me.
the military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq cannot be understood if they are regarded as self-contained wars in their own right. Instead we have to see them as fronts or theaters that have been opened up in the early stages of a protracted global struggle.
The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
#40. To: BeAChooser (#0)
Jeez, I thought this was going to be a satire. These neocons will NEVER shut up, will they? Every single thing they have claimed has turned out to be 180 degrees from the truth, they've been exposed as pseudo-intellectual frauds, they've destroyed our standing in the world, they've killed untold thousands of people for no apparent reason, yet they can't ever admit how wrong they were and are. Once I saw BAC posted it, I knew where this was going. Give it up, BAC. You and your idols are wrong, wrong, wrong, about EVERYTHING. Only a crazed fanatic would continue to spout this bullshit. There are a bunch of nuts in Iran, but most of the country used to actually be pro-Western and much of it still is. As you may or may not know, we overthrew their only democratic government and install the Shah in the 1950s, then smugly watched while he instituted a reign of terror, particularly against university students and any political group that was even slightly to the left. When he was finally overthrown, we gave him and his family sanctuary. They've got a lot of reasons to dislike us, and that's what led to the attack on the embassy and the taking of hostages. I won't even get into their collusion with Reagan for the October surprise. Even if Iran gets nukes, so what? Nutcases like Israel and Pakistan and North Korea already have them too, and two of the three are close allies. The neocons should be escorted to the nearest shore and ordered to swim for it. They're murderous traitors.
#41. To: Mekons4 (#40)
well said.
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