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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Aristotle versus the Big Jew in the Sky
Source: Essay by Zoroaster
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 14, 2005
Author: Zoroaster
Post Date: 2005-05-14 08:25:42 by Zoroaster
Keywords: Aristotle, versus
Views: 668
Comments: 76

Aristotle’s Prime Mover evokes motion, not some big Jew in the sky. The commonly accepted model of the beginning of our universe, often referred to as the “Big Bang,” suggests that it began between 15 and 18 billion years ago in an infinitely compact and singular state, enclosing a space even smaller than an atomic particle. If Aristotle were alive today, he would say the Prime Mover caused the Big Bang, not the tribal war god of ancient Israel.

According to Aristotle the Prime Mover is the Prefect First Cause responsible for moving objects, which, in turn, move other objects: The Prime Mover is always at absolute rest, beyond time and space, motionless and changeless in perfection, omniscient and eternal, everywhere and nowhere.

Aristotle perceived God through motion. To my knowledge, he never claimed he understood or spoke to God. He was no different than the rest of humanity, pathetic creatures trapped in time and space, really, having only intuitive awareness of the Unknowable.

The conquests of Alexander, Aristotle’s pupil, brought Jews on the world stage. They brought with them, in contrast to the Prime Mover, Yahweh, the fiendish god of Jews, a kind of divine superiority soothing to their macerated egos because he chose them as his very own and set them above their betters, and they also brought with them their cunning in peddling their superstitions to cheat the unwary.

In the centuries between Aristotle and Constantine, the horrible Jewish god was to "make folly of the wisdom of this world," thus negating all learning, all culture, and repudiating reason itself. Yahweh and the radicals of an initially obscure Jewish sect promised to envy and malice that the rich and powerful would be tortured in Hell forever and forever, if they did not empty their pockets to the profit of ranting priests. To the dregs of the Empire that was Roman only in name, Christianity was what liquor is to alcoholics.

With Irenaeus the persecution of Gnostics and fierce, ecclesiastical intolerance to any other personal religious beliefs became the driving force of Christianity. Though Marcion (140 ce) sought to dump the Old Testament from Christianity because he felt Yahweh was incompatible with the Loving Father proclaimed by Jesus, he still attributed to Yahweh the status of a lesser, creative god, so there was some credence to Irenaeus’s charge of dualism.

If Marcion were alive today, I suspect he’d call Yahweh a gruesome Jewish fairytale and be done with it, thus avoiding Irenaeus’s complaints. Valentinus, on the other hand speaks of a God who is:

“(Root) of the All, the (Ineffable One who) dwells in the Monad (He dwells alone) in silence . . .since, after all (he was) a Monad, and no one was before him. . .”

A Valentinian Exposition ww.19-23, in NHL 436

Elaine Pagels writes in The Gnostic Gospels that according to a third Valentinian text, the Interpretation of Knowledge, Christ taught that “Your Father, who is in heaven, is one. No dualism in Valentinus. His concept of God was much like Aristotle’s Prime Mover, i.e., a Prefect God who does not play favorites.

If Constantine had not had his vision at Malvian Bridge (312 ce), Mithraism, not Christianity, might well have become the official religion of the Roman Empire. Based on the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract and war, Mithraism was more popular than Christianity at the time. But Christianity prevailed, and it’s no coincidence that the brand of Christianity that the Fathers put over was one which lugged with it the "Old Testament" and identified Yahweh, the big Jew up in the sky, as the Christian god, or that the first concern of the fathers, as soon as they got their hands on governmental power, was to exterminate the Marconists, the Manichaeans, and all the other Christian sects that refused to accept as their god the fiend of the "Old Testament.”

The slaughter went on well into the Middle Ages. In 1209 Pope Innocence III sicced an army of some thirty thousand knights and foot soldiers on the Languedoc—the mountainous northeastern foothills of the Pyrenees in what is now southern France. These Christian soldiers put a whole population to the sword in what became known as Albigensian Crusade. The extermination was so vast and terrible that it may well constitute the first case of “genocide” in modern Europeans history. What awful crime had these peaceful Cathars committed? The heresy of dualism: they believed in a good god of love, and an evil one of the material world.

By the time of the Reformation, Gnostics were either exterminated or driven into hiding. The Protestant Churches, however, proved to be just as intolerant as the Catholic when it came to blind faith as opposed to inner revelation.

An increasing number of "Fundamental Christians" have recently felt the need to defend Christianity by trashing anyone who speaks out in any way against the Bible. What it all boils down to, folks, is not exclusively religious or political augments but who’s in charge, and it’s the same old crowd. You can see them every Sunday morning on one-eyed Jew, screaming “God of Israel!” again and again, till they’re blue in the face.

-Z-

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#1. To: Zoroaster (#0)

He didn't do that, exactly..

In fact, quite the opposite in many cases.

He told them they weren't righteous, called them "stiff necked" and he levied on them many punishments.. killing even entire generations for their arrogance and rebellion.

And then, if you continue into the New Testament (Which they do not) he added their enemies to his Covenant and openly defied their religious leaders.

The Jewish God in the Bible really only respects men as individuals. Abraham V/S the Pharasees, Paul. All Jews, but by no means accorded the same level of respect or treatment by virtue of it.

The Jews don't acknowledge this, of course.. and that probably won't change anytime soon. The Pat Robertson's of the world are stuck in the Old Testament and are largely obsessed with Jewish land holdings. That probably won't change either.

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-05-14   8:46:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Jhoffa_ (#1)

You may like this sermon, Jhoffa, I do:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -

The True Israel of God Dispensational or New Covenant Theology, Which is Right? Pastor K. Kirkland Valdez Apostolic Church, Valdez, Alaska

------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -

[Transcribed and edited from cassette tape. Preached in Florida, 1995]

The Jewish interpretation of history refers to the "first Temple period," which was the period of time before the destruction of Jerusalem in 600 BC. The temple was destroyed and the Jews were uprooted out of the land for their apostasy and idolatry, they had blended Babylonian witchcraft and sorcery into their religion. They were carried away, eventually a remnant returned during the "second Temple period" when they rebuilt the temple during the times of Ezra and Nehemiah. The second Temple period lasted until the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

According to the Jews there is an ongoing restoration where they are being restored back with God in the promised land, known as the Zionist restoration. They look forward to the Kingdom, the time when they will rule the world. Every Gentile will be their slave. They believe the Bible teaches this, the rabbis teach the same in their Talmud and Kabbalah.

Our Dispensational brethren today believe it much the same way. They see history in that very same pattern, but the only difference is they believe the Church is kind of a side show. The Church, a parenthesis, with all the action to take place among the Jews. The Dispensationalist believe there will be a pre-tribulation rapture that will swish them out of here while God turns back to his true love: the Zionist Restoration of the Jews. The purpose of the tribulation is supposedly to correct the many errors of the Jews these long years they have rejected God. They are to get straightened out during the tribulation, God, preparing them to rule the world during the millennium. Then, Jesus will be their king, and, they in turn will rule the rest of the world. The Dispensationalist doctrine is also the Pre-Trib doctrine.

I want to take a few minutes to drive home a very important point. Many don't seem to realize that when the rapture takes place is only one part of this. People are coming to the realization that there is not a pre-trib rapture. There’s not even a mid-trib rapture, but the Lord in fact comes after the Tribulation, and they feel like they have conquered all the End-Time issues. But that is only part of this truth. In fact pre-trib theory is actually but a subset of Dispensationalism. Dispensational doctrine is built and based upon how you view the church and how you view the Jew.

In the non-Dispensational belief of history and eschatology, indeed there was the "first temple" time period, and indeed the Jews did come back to Palestine. And there was a restoration. Where the non-Dispensationalist differ is this: Dispensational folks teach the restoration period is taking place right now, when in fact it has already happened. The Restoration mentioned in the many scriptures which the dispensational folks say is ongoing right now in the Middle East actually was fulfilled when the Jews were restored back to the land during pre-Christian times. The restoration to the land of Israel, however, was only the beginning, the Messiah was to complete it. The ultimate purpose in being brought back to the land was spiritual. See Ezekiel 37.

When Jesus came, there was more than just a restoration of the land, he dealt with the spiritual. Jesus Christ came to this earth on a spiritual mission. When Nicodemos dropped by, Jesus didn’t tell him anything about building some political KINGDOM and ruling the Jewish world. .He told him that unless he was born again he could not even see the KINGDOM OF GOD. The Jews belief about the kingdom of God today is the same as what they believed back then. Political, not spiritual.

They thought their Messiah would come and they would have political sovereignty over the world and they would rule the world through their Messiah, but when Jesus came he brought them nothing of the kind. He told Nicodemus in so many words, "You don’t even know what the Kingdom of God is, and except you’re born again you can’t even see it". Then he went a little bit further and expounded upon it and told him about the need to be baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. No matter what else we might say about eschatology you must understand what the overriding theme really is.

The dispensationalist doctrine teaches that the Lord is going to rapture the church out and then the Jews, in the tribulation, will have a different form of doctrine and salvation. Gentiles? Well, their salvation is getting their heads cut off and all kinds of other theories. No, I want you to know that what Jesus said will stand and will continue to stand. "Except a man is born of the water and of the spirit he, cannot see the kingdom of God." Whether he is as Nicodemus, a Jew, Chinese or whatever he is, he’s got to be born into the Kingdom of God. The pre-trib theory has no bearing on it. There is only one plan of salvation and no one, Jew or Gentile, will be saved any other way.

`Jesus came to bring about a spiritual restoration. He brought the New Covenant into the world in his blood (Matt. 26:28). Through Jesus Christ, the Apostolic church is the new Israel of God. Jesus Christ himself was the true Israel. He was everything that Israel was supposed to be, but never was. They never lived up to what they were supposed to be, until Jesus came, and, he, as the promised seed of Abraham, was the true Israel. One of the metaphors the Jews used for their people was the vine (Jeremiah 2:21), but I want you to know when Jesus Christ came he made it clear that HE was the vine (John 15). He said, in effect, "I am the vine. Ye are the branches, I am the true Israel, the Israel of God." It doesn’t stop there, because the church is his body, he is the head of it. The church is therefore, also the Israel of God. It is the true Israel, the chosen people.

Jews and Dispensationalists use the term "chosen people" so loosely. Does anybody ever stop to think what Jews were chosen for? They were chosen to be a holy people - in the midst of a wicked, perverted and pagan world. They were chosen to be the witnesses of the One God in the midst of a world that believed in numerous gods. That’s what they were chosen for. They were chosen to bring forth the Messiah into the world. Now the church, the true church, has become the chosen people because we stand for these things (or should) - holiness and the oneness of God. Hear O, ISRAEL, hear O, Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord. The church is the new Israel, the true Israel of God.

These are some of the basic points of the pre-trib, dispensational theory. You need to really understand these basics. A lot of folks think that when you deal with prophecy, you have to get in there and start talking about horns and heads, and thunders. All that is not important until you understand who the church really is. If you get that right then you begin to interpret things in the book of Revelation right. Otherwise you’re going to come up with the wrong answers. The church is the true Israel of God.

In AD 70 the destruction of Jerusalem happened as Jesus prophesied it would, as Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy said that it would. The middle ages came and went, with all it’s confusion and darkness. Yet we are in the Apostolic church today and the church is still the true Israel of God. There will be a "catching away of the saints", but it will take place after the tribulation. The church is predestined from before the foundation of the world to play the chief role of the end times. We should feel awed because we have been selected to be part of the chosen people.

In the Millennium, the 1000 year period after the tribulation, the church replaces the synagogue just as the church replaced the law, along with the rest of their system, including their animal sacrifices. When Jesus Christ came, he terminated and abrogated the law. The church has replaced the old covenant. Let me say that again - the church has replaced the old covenant.

It is false doctrine to teach that perhaps there’s a possibility the Jews can make it some other way. There is only one valid covenant, and it works, and the Bible doesn’t tell us about any other covenant to be given before the coming of the Lord. Any other suggestion is false doctrine. Red heifers and turtle doves won’t do it. The old covenant is done away with. It has been replaced. You will spend a lot of time at the Christian book store looking at the prophecy shelf before you will find anything about what I’m teaching. This pre-trib, dispensational stuff is what they are all promoting.

Unless you are grounded in the truth you will be deceived by all the rhetoric and fluff. I want you to know there is only ONE hope, ONE body, ONE spirit (Eph. 4:4). We are looking for that one blessed hope. That one "appearing of the great God and our Savior, Jesus Christ. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:13, 14).

That’s the hope, the one hope, the only hope. There is no such thing as a different hope for the Jews. Hear me now, there is ONE body, that’s the church. Do you know what’s in that ONE body? Jews and Gentiles. In one body. I’m not against the Jews, I’m for them. I want them to get in the Kingdom of God - and be saved the one and only way.

As long as we teach there is a possibility they can be saved some other way, we’re not really their friends. When you read their secret material, you’ll find if there is any thing they are against it’s the "replacement" idea. They don’t care if we get the Holy Ghost or any other belief we may have, but if you believe that the church has replaced their covenant, friend, they really don’t like that. But, it's still the truth, nonetheless.

Let’s examine 3 major tenants of true eschatology (end times).

1. It should be based on Apostolic interpretation. Old testament prophecy is understood through the filter of the New Testament. Eschatology is based on the New Testament, not the Old. So many make the error of going back to read the prophecy of the Old Testament and bypass the New. Dispensational theory is based chiefly on the Old Testament, not what the apostles had to say.

2. Jesus Christ and the gospel have fulfilled and replaced the Abrahamic covenant. The Abrahamic covenant is no more unconditional than the New Covenant is. Obedience and faith has always been God’s condition. There has never been any such thing as unconditional security. Adam and Eve found that out when the devil came along with his once saved always saved, unconditional security doctrine. He lied to them and they believed it. Dispensationalism is built on the lie of the devil. The devil himself found out he didn’t have eternal security when God kicked him out of heaven. But folks come along and teach that the Jews, because of what Abraham did, have unconditional security. Page after page of the prophecy of Jeremiah tells us that God did not let their theory stand. Jeremiah said God was going to uproot them. They never thought it could happen to them. But, they found out otherwise because of their apostasy.

3. Jesus Christ and the gospel fulfilled the prophesied Davidic covenant and kingdom, both now and in the future. The kingdom of God is not race, but grace. That’s really what this is all about. Did you ever stop to think how contrary to the mind of God, that just because you happen to be of a certain blood line, or think you are, somehow that makes you God’s favorite child. That’s what Jews believe, and the dispensationalists believe it. Those who teach a pre-tribulation rapture believe it.

John 1:11- 13 (11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not. (12) But as many as received him, (his own didn’t receive him, but as many as received him did) to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: (13) Which were born, not of blood (race or bloodline), nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Even to them which believe on his name.

Whether you’re Red, Black, Yellow, White, or Brown, whatever you are, it’s not blood line. It’s not race. The law came by Moses, but grace and truth came by what? Jesus Christ (John 1:17). We are talking about TRUTH. Real truth did not arrive on the scene until Jesus came. The dispensationalists have failed to realize that the Holy Ghost is the key.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

That’s what the kingdom of God is and they haven’t seen that. You would think that our Apostolic brethren would not be following along after the Dispensationalists, we should know better. Don’t you believe that you must have the Holy Ghost? The kingdom of God is not "postponed," the kingdom of God is the church, ruled over by Jesus Christ. The Dispensationalists believe that the kingdom of God was postponed, the church is kind of an accident in history.

The modern state, the nation of Israel, is an impostor kingdom. Modern day Talmudic, Kabbalist, Judaism is not the same as Old Testament Judaism. Not so, neither by genealogy or by ideology. They’re not even true blood line descendants. It would take a while to prove that, but they are really not. Neither is their doctrine the same as what Moses taught and the Old Testament people of God believed. Their ideology is Kabbalist. Occult and pagan. Here you have one of the most unknown facts around, and if the Dispensationalist were to know what the Kabbalah has to say they would know the Jew's ideology HAS to be terribly wrong. Truth is, the ideology of modern day Judaism has more to do with satanic doctrine than it does the Old Testament. Jesus called it "the synagogue of Satan," Rev. 2:9, 3:9. Their anticipated kingdom will be the kingdom of antichrist.

http://www.endtime-truth.com/articles4.html

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-14   9:03:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Zoroaster, zipporah, robin (#2)

Interesting essay.
BTW Abraham was not a Jew.
It would appear that the vast bulk of Christian evangelicals, at least, are misled through the Scofield heresy.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   9:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Zoroaster (#2)

Here's a song by the next governor of Texas to go along with the sermon.

They Ain't Makin' Jews Like Jesus Anymore

Well, a redneck nerd in a bowling shirt was a-guzzlin’ lone star beer Talking religion and-uh politics for all the world to hear. 'they oughta send you back to russia, boy, or new york city one You just want to doodle a christian girl and you killed god’s only son.'

I said, 'has it occurred to you, you nerd, that that’s not very nice, We jews believe it was santa claus that killed jesus christ.' 'you know, you don’t look jewish,' he said, 'near as I could figger I had you lamped for a slightly anemic, well-dressed country nigger.'

No, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore, They don’t turn the other cheek the way they done before. He started in to shoutin’ and a-spittin’ on the floor, 'lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore.'

He says, 'i ain’t a racist but aristitle onassis is one greek we don’t need And them niggers, jews and sigma nus, all they ever do is breed. And wops 'n micks 'n slopes 'n spics 'n spooks are on my list And there’s one little hebe from the heart of texas, is there anyone I missed?'

Well, I hits him with everything I had right square between the eyes. I says, 'I’m gonna gitcha, you son of a bitch ya, for spoutin’ that pack of lies. If there’s one thing I can’t abide, it’s an ethnocentric racist; Now you take back that thing you said 'bout aristitle onassis.'

No, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore, We don’t turn the other cheek the way we done before. You could hear that honky holler as he hit that hardwood floor 'lord, they sho’ ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore!' All right!

No, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore, We don’t turn the other cheek the way they done before. You hear that honky holler as he hit that hardwood floor Lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore.

Everybody! They ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore, They ain’t makin’ carpenters who know what nails are for. Well, the whole damn place was singin’ as I strolled right out the door 'lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore!'

No, we ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore, We don’t turn the other cheek the way they done before. Well, the whole damn place was singin’ as I strolled right out the door 'lord, they ain’t makin’ jews like jesus anymore!'

Kinky Friedman

Sam Houston  posted on  2005-05-14   9:52:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: 1776, zipporah, Zoroaster, christine (#3)

It would appear that the vast bulk of Christian evangelicals, at least, are misled through the Scofield heresy.

And they have Israel worshipping down to a science.

I noticed one of these clowns last night--Jack Van Impe or something like that.

I was flipping the remote and passed him saying something about Israel and stopped. He was going on about Israel and the rise of anti-semitism and Christianity and had the knack of throwing bible verse numbers into his comments.

He is definitely in the all Christians are honorary Jews and should worship Isreal camp.

So, according to him, Russia is going to team up with Iran to destroy Israel and re-conquer Jerusleum which will then single the end of time. Revelations something or another. He said China may even be in on the Satan side of the battle. Leviticus something or another.

His sidekick, a blond female, was showing a series of headlines/news articles then they would pan back to the Van Imp for "biblical interpretation".

I wonder in a major way about this whole theology/approach/attitude and the question is generally: if it is pre-ordained that Israel is going down in a ball of flames and the whole armageddon thing, would, then, someone working for a true peace in the middle east be defying the word of God? Are not anti- Amerisrael "terrorists" merely acting out God's own plans?

When Bush & Sharon act to take out Saddam Hussein, are they thwarting the word of God per Judeo-Christianity--the sham that is Judeo-Christianity, anyway.

If Amerisrael goes after Iran in an attempt to disarm or defang Iran, is this incongurent with the theological scheme?? OR, is starting a war the way for a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And, where does Israel's ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians fit into all this?

And, how did America, as a country, get dragged into this? Is the bible supposed to be America's foreign policy handbook? I have heard it said that crackpot theology makes bad foreign policy--and it sure does (and has).

All those interesting questions aside, I simply think the Zionists have now corrupted a large segment of American Christianity into worshipping Isreal-- with the bottom line having nothing to do with religion or God--no, rather, the bottom line is good old American taxpayer cash and American blood shed for the defense of Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   9:55:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: wbales (#5)

the Zionists have now corrupted a large segment of American Christianity into worshipping Isreal

It sure appears that Jesus Christ takes a back seat compared to The Self-chosen.
Rexella and Jack are such obvious carnies, and of such a tawdry sort, that it makes one wonder who the heck watches them, let alone donates money to them.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   10:18:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: 1776 (#6)

Rexella

Is that really her name??? YIKES!

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   10:19:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Zoroaster (#0)

I certainly cannot argue that much evil has been done in the name of God and Christianity.. throughout history. But as its been said many times, what people does not necessarily align with what they say they believe.. You say "What it all boils down to, folks, is not exclusively religious or political augments but who’s in charge, and it’s the same old crowd. You can see them every Sunday morning on one-eyed Jew, screaming “God of Israel!” again and again, till they’re blue in the face.".. This belief is not orthodox by any means.. and is in direct opposition the historical and orthodox view of scripture... to understand why and how these unorthodox beliefs became so prevelant one must research Cyrus Scofield whose beliefs were influenced heavily by John Nelson Darby (1800-1892), who gathered them from Lacunza (1731-1801) and Edward Irving (1792-1834). The Scofield Study bible has had more influence on Christianity in the 20th century than anything else as most Baptist preachers and Baptists seminaries use Scofield's bible w/notes than any other published bible and they believe that the Scofield bible w/notes are legitimate study aids.. which in fact they are not and most who use the Scofield bible are not aware that the notes have been changed not due to new revelations or new discoveries of old text but rather changed w/news events. Scofield swept away nearly 2,000 years of developed church doctrine and created a new religion.. a Christianity that was nearly unrecognizable to it's former self.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   10:23:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: wbales (#5)

Jack Van Impe is a crackpot.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   10:24:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: wbales (#5)

The One-eyed Jew through its suckpoop goy televangelists has increased and broadened its attack on Isreal's enemies lately. One fat, pompus piece of human waste, I won't repeat his name, came close to advocating war on the EU and Russia for being unfriendly toward Israel. It seems Americans are being prepared for Iran.

Scott Ritter, who's usually right in Middle Eastern matters, predicts Iran will be hit in June.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-14   10:26:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Zoroaster, 1776, Zipporah (#10)

One fat, pompus piece of human waste, I won't repeat his name, came close to advocating war on the EU and Russia for being unfriendly toward Israel.

That whole bunch of circus freaks seems to be doing that, Z.

Which leads me back to my query: do they seek and desire "war" as a self fullfilling boblical prophecy? And as a collorary, would someone working for true peace in the middle east be doing the work of the Devil?????

And, if Israel gets America to take out all of Israel's enemies, doesn't that NOT fit the grand scheme. If Israel gets America to take out all of Israel's enemies, how in the heck is the armageddon supposed to take place??? This is all very confusing.

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   10:39:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Zipporah (#8)

It's probably no coincidence that the Scofield Reference Bible came into existence about the same time as the Zionist movement.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-14   10:39:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Zipporah, Zoroaster, 1776, wbales, robin, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#8)

Christian orthodoxy -- since Constantine corrupted the church by marrying it to Rome and her emperor -- has been blood-soaked in anti-Semetic hatred.

As such, rejecting such orthodoxy is not a bad thing. It might even get one closer to the spirit of the original church and out of Rome, her arch-nemesis.

Scofield has his flaws and didn't get it all right, certainly, but his restoration of the Jewish people their rightful and eternal place in God's great plan and his recognition that God's gifts, covenants, and promises to her were everlasting, as the OT says and Paul affirms, was definitely a step in the right direction -- away from the hateful errors of Constantine back towards the loving truth, grace, and spirit of Christ.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   10:58:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Zoroaster (#12)

There is an interesting book that documents Scofield .. Incredible Scofield and His Book.. very well documented... here is a link re the 'Christian' Cyrus Scofield: Scofield: the Man Behind the Myth

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   10:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Zoroaster (#12)

I guess the only and true Biblical thing to do would be to let Russia and Iran stomp the crap out of Israel so the Armageddon train could get rolling.

Hallelujah! All abroard!! LET'S ROLL!! Amen!

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:01:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Arator (#13)

Scofield has his flaws and didn't get it all right, certainly

The Scofield notes has more than flaws.. and Scofield, the person, was a fraud.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:04:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Arator (#13)

...but his restoration of the Jewish people their rightful and eternal place in God's great plan...

Is the American treasury tithing to Israel part of that plan?

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: wbales (#11)

Which leads me back to my query: do they seek and desire "war" as a self fullfilling boblical prophecy? And as a collorary, would someone working for true peace in the middle east be doing the work of the Devil?????

Don't ask such logical questions :P .. as none of this is based upon logic.. these people are double minded.. they put me in the mind of Sarah.. taking things in their own hands..they believe they are doing God's work.. and all the while losing the God of the work...

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:07:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Zipporah (#16)

The Scofield notes has more than flaws.. and Scofield, the person, was a fraud.

The scriptures do not rely on Scofield for their proper interpretation. They speak for themselves. Paul in Romans 11:28-29 could not have been more clear or emphatic about the place of Israel, even in unbelief, in God's great plan.

That Scofield, fraud or no, recognized this redounds to his credit, regardless of his other shortcomings.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:09:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: wbales (#17)

Is the American treasury tithing to Israel part of that plan?

No. In fact, Israel's reliance on America instead of God will lead to a tribulation so terrible only God's direct intervention will save them...

America is an idol rivaling Baal or even Rome in it's destructive potentialities for Israel...

So, I suppose in the sense that Israel is always confronted with false gods and idols to test and try her faith, America's worldly wealth and "tithing" is part of God's great plan...but only as a stumbling block for Israel to overcome. Nothing more.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:14:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Arator (#19)

Well on this we do disagree.. The prophets did not promise a restored national Israel...rather, they spoke of the coming Church ... establishing Christ's world-wide kingdom — the foundation of the Church is the redemptive work of Christ.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Zipporah (#18)

Don't ask such logical questions :P ..

There are two ways of looking at this:

1) Bush is exporting Democracy and trying to make the middle east peaches and cream (especially for Israel) BUT--AHAH!!--Bush is then doing the WORK OF THE DEVIL, I tell you!! For the Bible says: "Much woeeth be unto him does thou try to derail the Aramageddon train--heeth who so does, doeseth the work of the Prince of Darkness." Revelations 20:something or another

OR

2) Bush trys to speed the Armageddon Train along by providing Nooclear missles to Iran pre-targeted at Tel Aviv and goading Putin to join in the festivities. Now, there is the true warrior of God's Word--a Blessed son.

HHHMMMM.

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:18:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: wbales (#22)

I dont think for Bush and his cronies this has one thing to do with the Armageddon.. it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:23:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Zipporah (#23)

I dont think for Bush and his cronies this has one thing to do with the Armageddon.. it's political and to achieve their goals

Hanging out on 4 again I see, listen if you keep this up you will have the grand suite at the gulag.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:26:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Zipporah (#23)

it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

BINGO!

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: wbales (#22)

2) Bush trys to speed the Armageddon Train along by providing Nooclear missles to Iran pre-targeted at Tel Aviv and goading Putin to join in the festivities. Now, there is the true warrior of God's Word--a Blessed son.

The fact that evil is predicted to be done in scripture does not make the doers of said evil any less worthy of God's judgement.

The anti-Christ and "the Beast" are major players in endtime prophecy. Does that mean that men (like Bush) who incarnate these concepts of Satanic evil into the world by the way they live their lives are blessed? I think you know the answer.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: 1776 (#24)

Hanging out on 4 again I see, listen if you keep this up you will have the grand suite at the gulag.

Gack.. this would not do at all..that is unless I could take a hairdryer and makeup.. ;P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: wbales (#25)

BINGO!

What do I win?? (Please dont say a grand suite at the gulag.. )

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:32:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Zipporah (#27)

unless I could take a hairdryer and makeup..

That is an important point, has anyone seen the accomodations and do they change the sheets daily at the gulag? Is there room service?
Our taxes will pay for them so they better be first class or 4 folks won't stay.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: 1776 (#29)

Hmm .. those are the BASIC requirements ! :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Zipporah (#30)

And complementary mint on the pillow

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:41:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: wbales, Zipporah, Zoroaster, 1776 (#25)

it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

Ironically, they are, just not in the way they think.

Prophecy speaks of a great delusion with power to deceive the very elect, if that were possible.

Babylon the Great/the Beast is the endtimes manifestation of Rome.

But, in 300 AD, Rome and the Church fornicated together, and the bastard offspring of that unnatural union have since had to chose which parent to model themselves after...

But, because of the fornication, followers after Rome/the Beast can now think themselves followers of Christ even when they really aren't

This is the great delusion...

So, these deluded "Christians" worshipping the emperor of Rome and thinking him the vicar of Christ will follow him right into the pit of hell. And they will think themselves on the side of light and Christ as they do when in reality they are the very sinew and bone of the Beast which empowers anti-Christ.

They indeed will fulfill prophecy. Christ foretold of this and answered these "Christians" 2000 years ago in Matthew 7:15-23.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:46:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: wbales (#11)

I was watching Hal Lindsey's "Intelligence briefing" a couple of weeks ago (on TBN, yech) as I sometimes do to keep up with what these guys are up to. I sometimes watch the Van Impe show also. Anyway, Hal Lindsey was ranting about the threat of Iran exploding a nuclear bomb above the US knocking out all electronics in the country. This was a week before the story hit the press. He went as far as to suggest that US forces should make public a policy to respond immediately by annihilating Syria and Iran with nuclear bombs in the event the US was attacked with WMD. Without investigation, just remove them, the few bad and the many inncents, from the face of the earth. I was shocked. These people who profess to be "saved" Christians, who speak with the self proclaimed authority of Jesus Christ, promote endless death and suffering without batting an eye. They are hoping for the endtime prophecies to be fulfilled, and will stop at nothing to "aid" in the fulfillment.

Our government is colluding with these demented people as they have the same agenda although their motives greatly differ. It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice. As soon as these apostic Christians are no longer needed, surprise, they will find themselves on the undesirables list right along with constitutionalists, the poor, drug users, gun owners and the self-determined.

Sometimes the Truth that is right at the end of one's nose is the most difficult to see....

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   11:53:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: lightmind (#33)

Welcome to 4, lightmind!

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   12:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Arator (#34)

Thanks Arator. I see you have not lost your moxy, bro.

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   12:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: lightmind, Arator (#33)

Our government is colluding with these demented people as they have the same agenda although their motives greatly differ. It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice. As soon as these apostic Christians are no longer needed, surprise, they will find themselves on the undesirables list right along with constitutionalists, the poor, drug users, gun owners and the self-determined.

Welcome to 4!

I think many Evangelicals have become a little to sure of themselves, forgetting from whence cometh their strength. This attitude has left them open to attack from the truly evil forces within our govt. And, as you point out, they don't even know they are just being used, soon to be discarded.

robin  posted on  2005-05-14   12:21:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: lightmind (#33)

Sometimes the Truth that is right at the end of one's nose is the most difficult to see....

Religious fanaticism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills and a conviction that ones holy cause will result supernatural rewards.

Only lunatics would confound the message of Christ with Zionism and modern-day Israel.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-14   12:29:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: lightmind (#33)

It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice

Who caught the American Conservative Union dinner in tribute to House Majority Leader Tom Delay on CSPAN Thursday?

It was a little scary watching Paul Weyrich (of the "Free" Congress Foundation) reciting a paean to Delay recounting each of his victories, repeatedly intoning "For us that would have been enoungh." It was a long list. The effect was hypnotic and really kind of spooky. I imagined him with a turban on his head, preaching.

It's our mullahs vs their mullahs now. Who do you think will win??

randge  posted on  2005-05-14   12:50:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Zoroaster (#37)

Oh, lots and lots of lunatics are on the loose these days.

randge  posted on  2005-05-14   12:52:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: robin (#36)

think many Evangelicals have become a little to sure of themselves,

Here's a response I wrote for Mr. Lindsey. I don't normally react this way but I felt he deserved a good kick in the ass.

Mr. Lindsey,

I sometimes watch your Intelligence Briefing show on TBN. Last week I had the opportunity to watch again.

Although I agree with some of your research and conjectures, for the most part I am troubled by your views and opinions regarding world events, particularly your "insight" into the role America plays in the end-time scenario. On your show (the week of May 1, 2005) you advised that the U.S. military should prepare for and make public the policy to respond with nuclear annhilation in Syria and Iran in the event the U.S. is attacked with WMD. This shocked me as you make no mention of determining who the attackers are before retaliation. You are leading your audience to an obscene and decidedly anti-Christian level of fear and paranoia. Do you earnestly believe that those words could have been spoken by a Man of Christ?

As a Christian does it not disturb you that millions of innocent peoples will be killed; actually, murdered because of the actions of a few insane individuals, while you ride at the vanguard to promote these policies? Does it not disturb you that the current actions of this administration, that you vehemently and passionately support, are engaged in a war halfway around the world resulting in the death, injury and social upheaval of tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of our innocent brothers and sisters? Or that participants in the myriad of government agencies, corporations and groups that operate under the cloak of darkness, deceit and secrecy have the Word and Love of God in their hearts when they march to fulfill directive? You seem to utterly discount and ignore the very signs that these acts are not the acts of a Christian nation, nor are they the actions of Christian individuals. Can you not see?

60;Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them61; (Matt. 7:15-20).

It seems to me that you are hoping for these events to take place as soon as possible to bring about the apocalypse, and are performing heinous disservice through your spoken word to help to usher in these horrific predictions. As a Christian do you not have compassion, or have you simply brushed aside the Word of Christ that is not conjunct with your desires?

In regard to America's role in the endtimes, I give you some food for thought. You are constantly reaching for evidence in the Bible of America's role in prophecy, and honestly, you have not yet stumbled upon anything credible or even believable. Don't feel bad, there are many who have struggled with that mystery. I urge you look beyond your bias and list all the traits of Babylon described in multiple places in the Bible. After compiling the list, please compare the descriptive traits with the traits of the U.S. If you can be honest and open-minded you may be able to determine that America is the one country in the world that embodies those traits. Maybe then you can begin to re-evaluate your position as you understand that you may in Truth be a participant in this unGodly tide of apolyptical events. It is entirely possible America is the home of MYSTERY BABYLON. You may dismiss this out of hand but a little critical thinking and awareness of just what America is and is becoming may jog you to your senses, if you care to have the "eyes" to see and the "ears" to hear. America may not be around for much of the Apocalypse if we are Babylon, but we are certainly bringing the pieces of the puzzle into place. Either way, we must not portray ourselves as innocent, shining examples of the Word of God, Justice and Liberty. Our history is stained with the blood of millions of innocents, and it doesn't look like we have changed course. On the contrary, we seem to be picking up speed. It's easy and convenient to demonize others while ignoring our own guilt. We should be begging for forgiveness, not lying comfortably in the blood stained, flag draped, cross-bearing coffins of our own pride and conceit.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matt 7:1-5)"

Please understand that I am not writing this correspondence to condemn you personally. However, after viewing your show I felt the need to correspond with you on these matters. I understand that our basis for belief is a powerful force, and if we are not careful we may unwittingly fall into the trap of being so confident in our belief that we cannot discern Truths that stand right before our eye. I despise not the messenger but the message. A good rule that I aspire to also happens to be one of my favorite heart-felt passages;

"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, you do it to me" (Matt 25:40)

We are commanded to to see Christ in any one of our brethren- by Christ Himself! By declaring open support of actions that will without doubt result in untold suffering and unpredictable reactions you may ignore the Word of Christ. By declaring open support of the entities that are seeking the Return of Christ by means of the actions of Men you may do well to realize that the even the righteous can be blinded.

I leave you with this. May you be blessed in your opportunity to minister to those who are reached by your show. Please remember, and be careful of, the power of the Spoken Word. And may your words be the conveyed Word of God.

"'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all you strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as youself.' There is no greater commandment than these." (Mark 12:30-31)

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   13:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: lightmind (#40)

I urge you look beyond your bias and list all the traits of Babylon described in multiple places in the Bible. After compiling the list, please compare the descriptive traits with the traits of the U.S. If you can be honest and open-minded you may be able to determine that America is the one country in the world that embodies those traits

HAHAHA!!! Well done, all of it. And you kept a very civil, polite tone throughout.

robin  posted on  2005-05-14   13:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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