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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Aristotle versus the Big Jew in the Sky
Source: Essay by Zoroaster
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 14, 2005
Author: Zoroaster
Post Date: 2005-05-14 08:25:42 by Zoroaster
Keywords: Aristotle, versus
Views: 739
Comments: 76

Aristotle’s Prime Mover evokes motion, not some big Jew in the sky. The commonly accepted model of the beginning of our universe, often referred to as the “Big Bang,” suggests that it began between 15 and 18 billion years ago in an infinitely compact and singular state, enclosing a space even smaller than an atomic particle. If Aristotle were alive today, he would say the Prime Mover caused the Big Bang, not the tribal war god of ancient Israel.

According to Aristotle the Prime Mover is the Prefect First Cause responsible for moving objects, which, in turn, move other objects: The Prime Mover is always at absolute rest, beyond time and space, motionless and changeless in perfection, omniscient and eternal, everywhere and nowhere.

Aristotle perceived God through motion. To my knowledge, he never claimed he understood or spoke to God. He was no different than the rest of humanity, pathetic creatures trapped in time and space, really, having only intuitive awareness of the Unknowable.

The conquests of Alexander, Aristotle’s pupil, brought Jews on the world stage. They brought with them, in contrast to the Prime Mover, Yahweh, the fiendish god of Jews, a kind of divine superiority soothing to their macerated egos because he chose them as his very own and set them above their betters, and they also brought with them their cunning in peddling their superstitions to cheat the unwary.

In the centuries between Aristotle and Constantine, the horrible Jewish god was to "make folly of the wisdom of this world," thus negating all learning, all culture, and repudiating reason itself. Yahweh and the radicals of an initially obscure Jewish sect promised to envy and malice that the rich and powerful would be tortured in Hell forever and forever, if they did not empty their pockets to the profit of ranting priests. To the dregs of the Empire that was Roman only in name, Christianity was what liquor is to alcoholics.

With Irenaeus the persecution of Gnostics and fierce, ecclesiastical intolerance to any other personal religious beliefs became the driving force of Christianity. Though Marcion (140 ce) sought to dump the Old Testament from Christianity because he felt Yahweh was incompatible with the Loving Father proclaimed by Jesus, he still attributed to Yahweh the status of a lesser, creative god, so there was some credence to Irenaeus’s charge of dualism.

If Marcion were alive today, I suspect he’d call Yahweh a gruesome Jewish fairytale and be done with it, thus avoiding Irenaeus’s complaints. Valentinus, on the other hand speaks of a God who is:

“(Root) of the All, the (Ineffable One who) dwells in the Monad (He dwells alone) in silence . . .since, after all (he was) a Monad, and no one was before him. . .”

A Valentinian Exposition ww.19-23, in NHL 436

Elaine Pagels writes in The Gnostic Gospels that according to a third Valentinian text, the Interpretation of Knowledge, Christ taught that “Your Father, who is in heaven, is one. No dualism in Valentinus. His concept of God was much like Aristotle’s Prime Mover, i.e., a Prefect God who does not play favorites.

If Constantine had not had his vision at Malvian Bridge (312 ce), Mithraism, not Christianity, might well have become the official religion of the Roman Empire. Based on the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract and war, Mithraism was more popular than Christianity at the time. But Christianity prevailed, and it’s no coincidence that the brand of Christianity that the Fathers put over was one which lugged with it the "Old Testament" and identified Yahweh, the big Jew up in the sky, as the Christian god, or that the first concern of the fathers, as soon as they got their hands on governmental power, was to exterminate the Marconists, the Manichaeans, and all the other Christian sects that refused to accept as their god the fiend of the "Old Testament.”

The slaughter went on well into the Middle Ages. In 1209 Pope Innocence III sicced an army of some thirty thousand knights and foot soldiers on the Languedoc—the mountainous northeastern foothills of the Pyrenees in what is now southern France. These Christian soldiers put a whole population to the sword in what became known as Albigensian Crusade. The extermination was so vast and terrible that it may well constitute the first case of “genocide” in modern Europeans history. What awful crime had these peaceful Cathars committed? The heresy of dualism: they believed in a good god of love, and an evil one of the material world.

By the time of the Reformation, Gnostics were either exterminated or driven into hiding. The Protestant Churches, however, proved to be just as intolerant as the Catholic when it came to blind faith as opposed to inner revelation.

An increasing number of "Fundamental Christians" have recently felt the need to defend Christianity by trashing anyone who speaks out in any way against the Bible. What it all boils down to, folks, is not exclusively religious or political augments but who’s in charge, and it’s the same old crowd. You can see them every Sunday morning on one-eyed Jew, screaming “God of Israel!” again and again, till they’re blue in the face.

-Z-

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#21. To: Arator (#19)

Well on this we do disagree.. The prophets did not promise a restored national Israel...rather, they spoke of the coming Church ... establishing Christ's world-wide kingdom — the foundation of the Church is the redemptive work of Christ.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:15:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Zipporah (#18)

Don't ask such logical questions :P ..

There are two ways of looking at this:

1) Bush is exporting Democracy and trying to make the middle east peaches and cream (especially for Israel) BUT--AHAH!!--Bush is then doing the WORK OF THE DEVIL, I tell you!! For the Bible says: "Much woeeth be unto him does thou try to derail the Aramageddon train--heeth who so does, doeseth the work of the Prince of Darkness." Revelations 20:something or another

OR

2) Bush trys to speed the Armageddon Train along by providing Nooclear missles to Iran pre-targeted at Tel Aviv and goading Putin to join in the festivities. Now, there is the true warrior of God's Word--a Blessed son.

HHHMMMM.

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:18:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: wbales (#22)

I dont think for Bush and his cronies this has one thing to do with the Armageddon.. it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:23:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Zipporah (#23)

I dont think for Bush and his cronies this has one thing to do with the Armageddon.. it's political and to achieve their goals

Hanging out on 4 again I see, listen if you keep this up you will have the grand suite at the gulag.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:26:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Zipporah (#23)

it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

BINGO!

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   11:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: wbales (#22)

2) Bush trys to speed the Armageddon Train along by providing Nooclear missles to Iran pre-targeted at Tel Aviv and goading Putin to join in the festivities. Now, there is the true warrior of God's Word--a Blessed son.

The fact that evil is predicted to be done in scripture does not make the doers of said evil any less worthy of God's judgement.

The anti-Christ and "the Beast" are major players in endtime prophecy. Does that mean that men (like Bush) who incarnate these concepts of Satanic evil into the world by the way they live their lives are blessed? I think you know the answer.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: 1776 (#24)

Hanging out on 4 again I see, listen if you keep this up you will have the grand suite at the gulag.

Gack.. this would not do at all..that is unless I could take a hairdryer and makeup.. ;P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: wbales (#25)

BINGO!

What do I win?? (Please dont say a grand suite at the gulag.. )

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:32:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Zipporah (#27)

unless I could take a hairdryer and makeup..

That is an important point, has anyone seen the accomodations and do they change the sheets daily at the gulag? Is there room service?
Our taxes will pay for them so they better be first class or 4 folks won't stay.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:35:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: 1776 (#29)

Hmm .. those are the BASIC requirements ! :P

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   11:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Zipporah (#30)

And complementary mint on the pillow

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   11:41:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: wbales, Zipporah, Zoroaster, 1776 (#25)

it's political and to achieve their goals to keep their support.. they want the dispensationalist Christians to believe that they are fulfilling prophesy..

Ironically, they are, just not in the way they think.

Prophecy speaks of a great delusion with power to deceive the very elect, if that were possible.

Babylon the Great/the Beast is the endtimes manifestation of Rome.

But, in 300 AD, Rome and the Church fornicated together, and the bastard offspring of that unnatural union have since had to chose which parent to model themselves after...

But, because of the fornication, followers after Rome/the Beast can now think themselves followers of Christ even when they really aren't

This is the great delusion...

So, these deluded "Christians" worshipping the emperor of Rome and thinking him the vicar of Christ will follow him right into the pit of hell. And they will think themselves on the side of light and Christ as they do when in reality they are the very sinew and bone of the Beast which empowers anti-Christ.

They indeed will fulfill prophecy. Christ foretold of this and answered these "Christians" 2000 years ago in Matthew 7:15-23.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   11:46:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: wbales (#11)

I was watching Hal Lindsey's "Intelligence briefing" a couple of weeks ago (on TBN, yech) as I sometimes do to keep up with what these guys are up to. I sometimes watch the Van Impe show also. Anyway, Hal Lindsey was ranting about the threat of Iran exploding a nuclear bomb above the US knocking out all electronics in the country. This was a week before the story hit the press. He went as far as to suggest that US forces should make public a policy to respond immediately by annihilating Syria and Iran with nuclear bombs in the event the US was attacked with WMD. Without investigation, just remove them, the few bad and the many inncents, from the face of the earth. I was shocked. These people who profess to be "saved" Christians, who speak with the self proclaimed authority of Jesus Christ, promote endless death and suffering without batting an eye. They are hoping for the endtime prophecies to be fulfilled, and will stop at nothing to "aid" in the fulfillment.

Our government is colluding with these demented people as they have the same agenda although their motives greatly differ. It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice. As soon as these apostic Christians are no longer needed, surprise, they will find themselves on the undesirables list right along with constitutionalists, the poor, drug users, gun owners and the self-determined.

Sometimes the Truth that is right at the end of one's nose is the most difficult to see....

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   11:53:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: lightmind (#33)

Welcome to 4, lightmind!

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   12:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Arator (#34)

Thanks Arator. I see you have not lost your moxy, bro.

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   12:03:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: lightmind, Arator (#33)

Our government is colluding with these demented people as they have the same agenda although their motives greatly differ. It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice. As soon as these apostic Christians are no longer needed, surprise, they will find themselves on the undesirables list right along with constitutionalists, the poor, drug users, gun owners and the self-determined.

Welcome to 4!

I think many Evangelicals have become a little to sure of themselves, forgetting from whence cometh their strength. This attitude has left them open to attack from the truly evil forces within our govt. And, as you point out, they don't even know they are just being used, soon to be discarded.

robin  posted on  2005-05-14   12:21:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: lightmind (#33)

Sometimes the Truth that is right at the end of one's nose is the most difficult to see....

Religious fanaticism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills and a conviction that ones holy cause will result supernatural rewards.

Only lunatics would confound the message of Christ with Zionism and modern-day Israel.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-14   12:29:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: lightmind (#33)

It's amazing that these so-called Christians fully and vehemently support the gov, the president, who are repulsive to those holding the ever-diminishing flame of Truth and Justice

Who caught the American Conservative Union dinner in tribute to House Majority Leader Tom Delay on CSPAN Thursday?

It was a little scary watching Paul Weyrich (of the "Free" Congress Foundation) reciting a paean to Delay recounting each of his victories, repeatedly intoning "For us that would have been enoungh." It was a long list. The effect was hypnotic and really kind of spooky. I imagined him with a turban on his head, preaching.

It's our mullahs vs their mullahs now. Who do you think will win??

randge  posted on  2005-05-14   12:50:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Zoroaster (#37)

Oh, lots and lots of lunatics are on the loose these days.

randge  posted on  2005-05-14   12:52:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: robin (#36)

think many Evangelicals have become a little to sure of themselves,

Here's a response I wrote for Mr. Lindsey. I don't normally react this way but I felt he deserved a good kick in the ass.

Mr. Lindsey,

I sometimes watch your Intelligence Briefing show on TBN. Last week I had the opportunity to watch again.

Although I agree with some of your research and conjectures, for the most part I am troubled by your views and opinions regarding world events, particularly your "insight" into the role America plays in the end-time scenario. On your show (the week of May 1, 2005) you advised that the U.S. military should prepare for and make public the policy to respond with nuclear annhilation in Syria and Iran in the event the U.S. is attacked with WMD. This shocked me as you make no mention of determining who the attackers are before retaliation. You are leading your audience to an obscene and decidedly anti-Christian level of fear and paranoia. Do you earnestly believe that those words could have been spoken by a Man of Christ?

As a Christian does it not disturb you that millions of innocent peoples will be killed; actually, murdered because of the actions of a few insane individuals, while you ride at the vanguard to promote these policies? Does it not disturb you that the current actions of this administration, that you vehemently and passionately support, are engaged in a war halfway around the world resulting in the death, injury and social upheaval of tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands of our innocent brothers and sisters? Or that participants in the myriad of government agencies, corporations and groups that operate under the cloak of darkness, deceit and secrecy have the Word and Love of God in their hearts when they march to fulfill directive? You seem to utterly discount and ignore the very signs that these acts are not the acts of a Christian nation, nor are they the actions of Christian individuals. Can you not see?

60;Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them61; (Matt. 7:15-20).

It seems to me that you are hoping for these events to take place as soon as possible to bring about the apocalypse, and are performing heinous disservice through your spoken word to help to usher in these horrific predictions. As a Christian do you not have compassion, or have you simply brushed aside the Word of Christ that is not conjunct with your desires?

In regard to America's role in the endtimes, I give you some food for thought. You are constantly reaching for evidence in the Bible of America's role in prophecy, and honestly, you have not yet stumbled upon anything credible or even believable. Don't feel bad, there are many who have struggled with that mystery. I urge you look beyond your bias and list all the traits of Babylon described in multiple places in the Bible. After compiling the list, please compare the descriptive traits with the traits of the U.S. If you can be honest and open-minded you may be able to determine that America is the one country in the world that embodies those traits. Maybe then you can begin to re-evaluate your position as you understand that you may in Truth be a participant in this unGodly tide of apolyptical events. It is entirely possible America is the home of MYSTERY BABYLON. You may dismiss this out of hand but a little critical thinking and awareness of just what America is and is becoming may jog you to your senses, if you care to have the "eyes" to see and the "ears" to hear. America may not be around for much of the Apocalypse if we are Babylon, but we are certainly bringing the pieces of the puzzle into place. Either way, we must not portray ourselves as innocent, shining examples of the Word of God, Justice and Liberty. Our history is stained with the blood of millions of innocents, and it doesn't look like we have changed course. On the contrary, we seem to be picking up speed. It's easy and convenient to demonize others while ignoring our own guilt. We should be begging for forgiveness, not lying comfortably in the blood stained, flag draped, cross-bearing coffins of our own pride and conceit.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Matt 7:1-5)"

Please understand that I am not writing this correspondence to condemn you personally. However, after viewing your show I felt the need to correspond with you on these matters. I understand that our basis for belief is a powerful force, and if we are not careful we may unwittingly fall into the trap of being so confident in our belief that we cannot discern Truths that stand right before our eye. I despise not the messenger but the message. A good rule that I aspire to also happens to be one of my favorite heart-felt passages;

"Whatsoever you do to the least of my brethren, you do it to me" (Matt 25:40)

We are commanded to to see Christ in any one of our brethren- by Christ Himself! By declaring open support of actions that will without doubt result in untold suffering and unpredictable reactions you may ignore the Word of Christ. By declaring open support of the entities that are seeking the Return of Christ by means of the actions of Men you may do well to realize that the even the righteous can be blinded.

I leave you with this. May you be blessed in your opportunity to minister to those who are reached by your show. Please remember, and be careful of, the power of the Spoken Word. And may your words be the conveyed Word of God.

"'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all you strength.' The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as youself.' There is no greater commandment than these." (Mark 12:30-31)

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   13:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: lightmind (#40)

I urge you look beyond your bias and list all the traits of Babylon described in multiple places in the Bible. After compiling the list, please compare the descriptive traits with the traits of the U.S. If you can be honest and open-minded you may be able to determine that America is the one country in the world that embodies those traits

HAHAHA!!! Well done, all of it. And you kept a very civil, polite tone throughout.

robin  posted on  2005-05-14   13:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Jhoffa_ (#1)

he added their enemies to his Covenant and openly defied their religious leaders.

To me that's always gone to prove his fallibility. Why didn't he get it right in his first covenant? He didn't know his "chosen" people would turn on him? And his remaining cognizant bipedal creations were hellbound until he decided, "nah you guys are cool too, as long as you hang out with my boy; Jesus. Sorry for any confusion".

It may be off the subject, but that's what happens when religious discussion comes up.

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-05-14   13:18:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: lightmind (#40)

In regard to America's role in the endtimes, I give you some food for thought. You are constantly reaching for evidence in the Bible of America's role in prophecy, and honestly, you have not yet stumbled upon anything credible or even believable. Don't feel bad, there are many who have struggled with that mystery. I urge you look beyond your bias and list all the traits of Babylon described in multiple places in the Bible. After compiling the list, please compare the descriptive traits with the traits of the U.S. If you can be honest and open-minded you may be able to determine that America is the one country in the world that embodies those traits. Maybe then you can begin to re-evaluate your position as you understand that you may in Truth be a participant in this unGodly tide of apolyptical events. It is entirely possible America is the home of MYSTERY BABYLON. You may dismiss this out of hand but a little critical thinking and awareness of just what America is and is becoming may jog you to your senses, if you care to have the "eyes" to see and the "ears" to hear. America may not be around for much of the Apocalypse if we are Babylon, but we are certainly bringing the pieces of the puzzle into place. Either way, we must not portray ourselves as innocent, shining examples of the Word of God, Justice and Liberty. Our history is stained with the blood of millions of innocents, and it doesn't look like we have changed course. On the contrary, we seem to be picking up speed. It's easy and convenient to demonize others while ignoring our own guilt. We should be begging for forgiveness, not lying comfortably in the blood stained, flag draped, cross-bearing coffins of our own pride and conceit.

Outstanding, lightmind! Very well said!

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   14:10:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

To me that's always gone to prove his fallibility. Why didn't he get it right in his first covenant? He didn't know his "chosen" people would turn on him?

The confusion is entirely ours. His first covenant was not superceded by a second. There is only one covenant, one law, one plan, and Christ was at the center of it from the beginning. Sectarian strife between Christians and Jews has resulted in the divide being exagerated and amplified between "old" testament and "new", as if the "old" was supplanted by the "new." In truth, there is neither old nor new. There is only one revelation of God to man, and if one is reading it in a way that contrives two contradictory messages/covenants/plans of God, then one is misconstruing the message of its singular and unchangable author.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   14:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: lightmind (#33)

Yes, these clowns seem to be preaching: God bless Israel and the U.S. of A.. Now let us go forth and kill some Arabs. Amen!!

Welcome the forum, BTW.

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   14:34:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Zipporah (#28)

What do I win??

My admiration for the day (coveted by millions; received by few).

wbales  posted on  2005-05-14   14:37:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: robin, zipporah, Don, christine (#36)

Hal Lindsey, when his Late Great Planet Earth came out and he drove his Mercedes, used to carry a Star of David so-called, not a Cross, with him, for all I know he may still do so.
Very interesting.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   14:42:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Arator (#44)

The confusion is entirely ours.

I agree. We are victims of our own fallability. I sometimes struggle with my own beliefs and have come to the conclusion that i cannot trust my own intellect. If I attempt to rationalize my beliefs I always come away with cognitive dissonance for the simple reason that what is held in the heart cannot possibly be understood by the mind. It's a one-way dead end. Our capability to understand the Word is constrained by our own condition. So in the end I rely on that which is written in my heart, the infallible Truth that we are all one and Love is the divine aspiration for all who seek God. Beyond that I cannot profess understanding.

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   14:43:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: wbales (#45)

Welcome the forum, BTW

Thanks. It's an honor to be counted among the Ncorrigibles.

lightmind  posted on  2005-05-14   14:48:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Arator, Dude Lebowski (#44)

To me that's always gone to prove his fallibility. Why didn't he get it right in his first covenant? He didn't know his "chosen" people would turn on him?

Well.. we agree and disagree.. I do agree there is only one plan..one law..with Christ at the center.. from the begninning. But where we differ is in that what was the Abrahamic covenant based upon (other than God Himself).. it was Abraham's faith.. (Romans 4:9 "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.")..Romans 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith... many more to list but faith is counted as righteousness.. God's people are those of faith.. whether they were in the OT or the New.. And this passage which was written to Christians: Romans 4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith... and in Galations Paul defines WHO the sons of Abraham are: Ga 3:7 -Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham... It is not by blood or race or genes that determine who are God's people but those who are of faith.. and God's 'chosen' people have NOT turned on him for they are the people of God by faith and those who believed that Jesus was the son of the living God and those who believe today are the descendants of Abraham.. those who believe on Him.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   14:53:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Zipporah (#50)

it was Abraham's faith.

Vitally important point.
Abraham related to God by faith alone.
He was NOT a Jew.
Nothing to do with Judaism or Israel or any of that stuff.

1776  posted on  2005-05-14   15:07:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Arator (#44)

With the Old Testament containing utter ridiculousness and impossibilities of physics and nature, and the New Testament containing more muted ridiculousness which also defy the apparent worldly structure, it's difficult to know where truth sits. So in your estimation, where does the bunk end and the truth begin? Is the New Testament the delineation, or am I misunderstanding you?

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-05-14   15:33:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Zipporah (#50)

None of the accounts of creation or miracles jibes with the world I have observed.

For instance, we know we occupy a minute corner of the cosmos, the rest of which is currently intangible and unknowable. Yet, if we are here for his Glory, why are we relegated to a tiny corner. If the Tower of Babel was encroaching on his eternal kingdom in the sky, then how can we launch manned space flights and sattelites? Why would he break the carefully balanced molecular structures which he established simply for the veneration of man by way of miracles?

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-05-14   15:39:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Zipporah (#50)

It is not by blood or race or genes that determine who are God's people but those who are of faith.. and God's 'chosen' people have NOT turned on him for they are the people of God by faith and those who believed that Jesus was the son of the living God and those who believe today are the descendants of Abraham.. those who believe on Him.

Yes, all who believe are descendents of Abraham. Abraham is the father of Gentile nations as well as the Jewish nation. All who believe, be they Jew or Gentile, are Abrahams children.

But some promises God made were not to Abraham's children generally, but to his son Isaac, specifically, and Isaac's son Jacob/Israel after him, and Jacob's 12 sons after him, whose descendents are called Israel, after their father, or Jews, after Judah, the father of the tribe that holds the scepter.

Moreover, God made specific promises to the people in this line of descent, based on the faith of their fathers, and these promises will be kept on that basis, even if the descendents fall into unbelief for a time, even if they come under judgement, lose their promised land, and be scattered to the ends of the earth, their gifts and call, and God's love for them will not end, on account of the Patriarchs, says Paul.

So, while the faithful are indeed reconciled to God as Abraham was, be they Jews or Gentiles, the faith of the Patriarchs and the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob/Israel continue to call out the descendents of Israel to a divinely appointed destiny, and that will be realized just as God foretold it would be. Their unfaith was all foreknown by God when he made these promises, as is their ultimate return to full faith yet to come.

Israel's called out purpose in God's plan does not contradict faith and God's grace, for it is the faith of the Patriarchs and God's grace towards them that is the very foundation of Israel's chosenness.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   15:52:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Arator (#54)

Israel's called out purpose in God's plan does not contradict faith and God's grace, for it is the faith of the Patriarchs and God's grace towards them that is the very foundation of Israel's chosenness.

Also earlier you said that the 'old' covenant was not obsolete .. but in Hebrews 8:7 8:7For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 8:13.. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

On this we do part company.. as Israel's called out purpose was to carry the promise and that being the promise of the messiah Christ Jesus.. Ga 3:16 -the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ... None other.. and if those Israelites.. have left the faith.. that is rejecting the promise .. then they have made the choice.. not God.. they themselves have turned their backs upon the promise.. they as individuals can chose to return.. but unless all return to Him then there is no special place for them.. it's not geographical or by genealogy it's of the "heart"..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   16:18:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Zipporah (#55)

Also earlier you said that the 'old' covenant was not obsolete .. but in Hebrews 8:7 8:7For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second. 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 8:13.. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

From my Jewish New Testament Commentary on this passage: "There are two words for "new" in Greek, kainos and neos. Neos means something that has never before existed, whereas kainos carries overtones of freshness and renewal of something which has existed. The word used in Hebrews Chapter 8 is kainos, and this is as it should be, because in a very real way, the New Covenant renews the Old Covenant -- even though the author dwells more on the contrasts than the similarities."

The very passage quoted from Jeremiah where God announces for the first time the coming of a "new covenent" says that its purpose is to "put God's laws in their mind and write them in their heart"! In that very same passage, God renews the promise he made to Israel at Sinai that "I will be their God, and they will be my people."

So, in what sense does the renewed Covenent differ from the original at Sinai? Has God's covenental promises to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jacob's descendents been abrogated? No. Has God's Law given to them at Sinai been annulled? No. In fact, it's keeping is the very objective of the Covenant's renewal! The renewed Covenent differs from the original only with respect to the priesthood and cult sacrifice. That is the subject matter and focus of the passages you cite in Hebrews. The covenent at Sinai provided for a priesthood and High Priest descended from Levi. The renewed Covenent has a High Priest of an entirely different order, of the order of Melchizadek, who preceded Levi's kin in performing sacrificial rites, and served Abraham. This is new and better, surely, for our High Priest in the order of Melchizedek is none other than the Messiah himself (and also the Passover Lamb, who died in our stead, so that the faithful live). In this way, the Covenent has been renewed and made better. And it is this renewed Covenent that will prove able to return Israel to the faith of her fathers, but only when it is rightly understood not as the rejection of all that came before, but as its renewal and, unltimatley, its perfection.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-14   16:57:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Arator (#56)

I agree that the covenant is inherited by Abrahams descendents.. and who are they? As I posted .. Ga 3:16 -the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ... his descendents are those who are of Christ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-14   17:01:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

No, he knew.. But Abraham's faith was complete, so he built him into a nation.

The Jews aren't cut off, far from it. We are "grafted" branches, they are the natural ones. We are warned that just as we have been "grafted" in, we can be more easily "grafted" right back out.

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-05-14   19:47:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Jhoffa_ (#58)

We are "grafted" branches, they are the natural ones. We are warned that just as we have been "grafted" in, we can be more easily "grafted" right back out.

So prior to big "G"'s change of heart, all the "grafted" branches were fallen souls, created to be hell-fodder? So much for man's intrinsic worth, eh?

And where do the other stages or offshoots of his other upright bipeds fall into the story? The fossil record doesn't lie. These "retarded" erectus and cro-magnons walked the earth at some point, possibly even at the same time as sapiens. No Testament that I am aware of addresses scientific evidence that we've discovered since.

God is a comedian whose audience is afraid to laugh. - Mencken

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-05-14   22:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: All (#59)

Re: 52,53 & 58

I hope people understand that I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, I'm just on a search for faith like everyone else and I'm partial to logical answers.

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-05-14   22:18:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Dude Lebowski (#60)

hope people understand that I'm not trying to be quarrelsome, I'm just on a search for faith like everyone else and I'm partial to logical answers.

I was raised by Fundamentalist Christians. Basically they are good folks, but many of them, perhaps a majority, are gullible and easily mislead by the Pat Robinsons and Jerry Falwells of this world.

Here's what Joseph Cambell had to say about it:

"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interperting them as facts, then you are in trouble."

I'm not sure whether or not Hell exists. But I am sure, if I go to Hell, Robinson and Falwell will be there to greet me.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-05-15   6:59:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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