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Title: Dem debate: Obama had a great statement
Source: me
URL Source: http://www.mememe.com
Published: Jun 3, 2007
Author: Me
Post Date: 2007-06-03 23:37:59 by Mekons4
Keywords: None
Views: 1048
Comments: 28

I'm already sold on Obama, but his line tonight that "fiscal responsibility is a progressive value" really hit home. I've always felt that a balanced budget and wiping out national debt is the best tax cut you can get. It truly floats all boats.

His statements about the squeeze on the middle class, universal healthcare, and the war all resonated with me.

I only watched some highlights, so I can't say who won or lost, although Richardson evidently didn't do well, but Obama is bringing the topics I want to hear about to the fore.

The war is probably my main issue, but it's a relatively short-term problem. Bush has EXPLODED the national deficit, and that, along with some sort of affordable, universal healthcare, are probably my two main long-term concerns.

We're going to end up individually bankrupt due to medical bills and paying off the interest on an $11 trillion national debt, and nationally, we're going to be a colony of China if this keeps up.

I think Obama is going to resonate with a lot of people, both Dems and others, next year. Whether he can beat Clinton and Edwards, I don't know, but I think he's offering something new from the Dem side.

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#1. To: Mekons4 (#0)

So how are we going to be fiscally responsible AND provide universal health care?

Yikes, I can't believe what some people will believe.


Enemies of the Republic

Critter  posted on  2007-06-03   23:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Mekons4 (#0)

The war is probably my main issue, but it's a relatively short-term problem.

I have to disagree with that. The whole world will be dealing with the fall out of the Iraq mess for decades to come. Not to mention Bush has made noises about putting laws into place that will make sure the next prez can't undo his *ugh* "accomplishments" in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The entire middle east is now one giant power keg and I honestly doubt that it will stabilize within our lifetime. $50 a barrel oil, Dubya's gift that will keep on giving long after he has left office.

Paying for the war and it's effects on energy prices is going to be a huge hurdle for anyone trying to get private and government debt under control.

"The more I see of life, the less I fear death" - Me.

Pissed Off Janitor  posted on  2007-06-03   23:46:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Mekons4 (#0) (Edited)

Obama Addresses Terror Plot

WMV video http://mfile.akamai.com/12878/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2007/0604/13435179.200k.asx

Obama is no different than the rest; Al-qaeda! Terror! Terror! Terror!

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-03   23:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Mekons4 (#0)

You'll note that not one of these Dems has a clue what any of this will cost nor do they have a clue as to how to pay for any of it.

Here's a hint: It'll be EXPENSIVE and YOU will pay through the nose for it.

Besides, where do you find "Universal Health Care" in the US Constitution?

These guys have never read it and are happy to wipe their asses with it.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-03   23:53:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: All (#3)

Right now the WMUR poll shows Obama leading with 31% and Hillary at 30%.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-03   23:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#2)

I have to disagree with that.

Short term problems???

We will never leave the ME, Bush knows that and his team mate Hillary agrees.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-06-04   0:23:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Mekons4 (#0)

I think Obama is going to resonate with a lot of people

He might very well resonate the bejezus out of lot of people. But when push comes to a shove, will anyone vote for a total neophyte at a time like this. We have seen what amateur hour brought us with Bushie.

Most serious commentators, constrained by PC, still think Obama is nothing more than MSM manufactured token candidate.

I am personally just waiting for the Clinton’s long knives. Obama will look like a kitten tossed into garbage disposal when they are done IMO.

I don’t think Hillary will survive either. I always think: if I was still in the Army, would I want either one of these characters as my CiC.

karelian  posted on  2007-06-04   0:28:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: karelian, Mekons4, cynicom, BTP Holdings (#7)

The budget can never be balanced as long as you have a Federal Reserve interest bearing currency. Total subsidy to the FED is 759 billion dollars a year. Total cost of money stolen by Wall Street from unaudited federal government contracts is 200 billion dollars a year. Any of the Dem candidates can bring this out if they are willing to pay the price.

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2007-06-04   0:58:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: mirage (#4)

Besides, where do you find "Universal Health Care" in the US Constitution?

The same place you find workman's comp, social security, bank regulation, the GI Bill, the highway construction program, and a million other worthwhile uses of the public dollar. As a society grows and develops, it introduces more benefits for its citizens. That's the only purpose of a society. Once it stops doing that, it's through.

I dunno about you, but I have no interest in going back to a world where the life expectancy was 42. Or where only the very wealthy could attend college. Or where it took four days to go from Boston to New York. Or where an accident at work doomed an entire family to starvation.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-06-04   1:28:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Mekons4 (#9)

I dunno about you...

If you'd read the US Constitution, you'll find it has a process to amend it.

If its so important to become a Communist nation, then let's do it the right way at least.

The problem with our society is that we are an Entitlement Society. Everyone wants it all and they want it now. They aren't willing to do the real work it takes to make it happen the right way.

So they take a shortcut. Seems that there is a lot of advocacy for that. Which laws may I ignore too?

Now, with $9 Trillion in debt (and growing) and $59 Trillion minimum in unfunded liabilities, we want to spend ourselves into oblivion? Enjoy the 90% marginal tax rates. Obama wants amnesty and a massive increase in immigration too.

Also, understand that putting all of this into place is going to make what happened to Argentina and the former Soviet Union look like a walk in the park.

So, if you feel you are entitled to your neighbor's wallet, by all means, cast your ballot to send the goons with guns to pick it for you. Just understand that in doing so, you're also picking your own pocket. Nothing is free. Nothing.

This time, the bill will be QUITE heavy. I trust your offspring won't need an inheritance. Obama will spend it for you.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-04   2:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Mekons4 (#9)

I dunno about you, but I have no interest in going back to a world where the life expectancy was 42. Or where only the very wealthy could attend college. Or where it took four days to go from Boston to New York. Or where an accident at work doomed an entire family to starvation.

Okay, I'll bite.

We already live in a world where the rich can go to school and actually afford it. You want to talk about slow travel, well watch and wait. They want you on public transportation, they want you to ride a bus, while your tax dollars subsidizes their limo rides. How about their free healthcare while you pay through the nose for yours???

That is exactly what you'll get. Of course, you're probably either a socialist or a communist, so it would be wrong for me to step all over your dreams.

Dying for old bastards, and their old money, isn't my idea of freedom.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2007-06-04   2:46:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Cynicom (#6)

We will never leave the ME.

You are so right. The reason: Israel won’t let us leave; we are Israel’s designated guard dog.

karelian  posted on  2007-06-04   3:58:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: karelian (#7)

Most serious commentators, constrained by PC, still think Obama is nothing more than MSM manufactured token candidate.

He is just that, a stuffed suit who repeats sound bites.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-04   4:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Horse (#8)

Any of the Dem candidates can bring this out if they are willing to pay the price.

They will do no such thing. All we will get from them is the same luke warm pabulum, same as the Repukes. RP is the exception and the internet polls are scaring the piss out of the establishment. Expect to see MSM polls that show him in single digits.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-04   4:57:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: BTP Holdings (#13)

He is just that, a stuffed suit who repeats sound bites. He is just that, a stuffed suit who repeats sound bites.

Obama was created by MSM right in front of our very eyes.

The important question is, by whom and for what reason.

Two days ago Warren Buffett said he would give gala parties for Obama and Hitlery to solicit donations. Then he said, both Hillary and Obama would make great presidents.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-06-04   5:15:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Cynicom (#15)

Warren Buffett

Remember he had all that silver he bought for less than $5/oz? Well, the dumb ass listened to the wrong people and leased it out. When the silver price doubled in about a year's time, he got caught holding the bag and lost it all plus some extra for being so stupid. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. ;0)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-04   5:30:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: mirage (#10)

$9 trillion and going to $12 trillion by the time Bush leaves office. It was $3 trillion and shrinking when Clinton left office. Don't blame debt on social services. We were doing fine until Bush came along, started stupid wars, gave an undeserved tax cut to people who didn't need one, passed a disastrous prescription bill that is really a payoff to the pharmaceutical and HMO industries, etc.

The purpose of a society is to make the lives of its citizens better. Not a small fraction of its citizens, all of them.

Healthcare now is a hodgepodge of for-profit organizations, mainly the insurance companies, who are barely overseen, much less regulated. This is a prescription for disaster, and we're getting it. Nearly 50 million citizens have no healthcare insurance, and if you want to buy it, it's $10K a year, which you can't even write off on your taxes. Sure sounds fair to me, when the wealthy can write off losses on their stock investments, and pay a low rate on their stock profits.

I live in a city. I don't need highways. So why don't we cut all spending on highways? If you use them, you're stealing from me. I can come up with examples like this all night, btw. We pay taxes to produce a better society. I think my tax dollars should go to providing low-cost healthcare to every citizen who needs it. I'd cheerfully cut the Pentagon's budget by $20 billion to pay for it, and that would only mean cutting off a few wasteful earmarks to build missile and other weapon programs the Pentagon doesn't even want.

If you want to make the argument that we shouldn't pay ANY taxes, fine. Ain't gonna happen. So if we're going to steal from each other's wallets anyway, I think it should be spent on things like health, education, food, and other stuff that makes people's lives better, not on military bases, wasteful wars, farm subsidies, welfare for those who don't want to work, and so on.

We piss away more money on "the troops" (really, the bureaucrats) than it would cost to make healthcare virtually free to every American.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-06-04   22:52:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Mekons4 (#17)

It was $3 trillion and shrinking when Clinton left office.

Shrinking???

Care to post a link with the figures indicating "shrinkage"???

Cynicom  posted on  2007-06-04   23:01:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Cynicom (#18)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/411973.stm

For the first time in 25 years, the US Government plans to reduce the size of the national debt.

The news represents a transformation of the US budget position, after struggling with huge deficits for most of the last decade.

[ image: US Treasury Secretary Summers wants to cut the debt] US Treasury Secretary Summers wants to cut the debt And it comes as a riposte to Republican plans to use the budget surplus to fund more tax cuts.

The last time the US tried to reduce its debt was in 1972.

It now says it will begin repurchasing Treasury bonds before they fall due, as early as next February, cutting back on the $3.6 trillion (£2.4 trillion) it owes to the public.

I'll add that the national deficit shrank steadily under Clinton, after exploding from $1 trillion in our entire history through Carter, to over $3 trillion under Reagan and to a lesser extent, Bush 1. Clinton was the best thing that ever happened to financial responsibility. You may remember that Republicans went berserk when Clinton raised taxes on the wealthiest, predicting in 1993 that we would be in a recession instantly. You may also remember what happened next -- the most prosperous decade in history for the middle class, apart from the GI Bill-fueled 50s.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-06-04   23:16:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Mekons4 (#17)

The purpose of a society is to make the lives of its citizens better. Not a small fraction of its citizens, all of them.

"From each according to his ability to each according to his need." - Karl Marx

The purpose of a Government is to protect its Citizens' rights and safety. It is not to rob from Peter to pay Paul.

The function of society is to encourage people to succeed and help them when they need help. It is not the function of society to cater to its residents' whims or provide them their every desire.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-04   23:17:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Mekons4 (#19)

For the first time in 25 years, the US Government plans to reduce the size of the national debt.

I would like a link to a Federal government chart that shows the shrinkage you said was occuring.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-06-04   23:21:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Cynicom, Neil McIver, Arator, Red Jones (#18) (Edited)

Care to post a link with the figures indicating "shrinkage"???

It may not have been shrinking, but the Ds fought, and defeated, the Rs attempt to change the accounting practices which would have removed substantial portions of the debt from the servicable debt and taken them off budget to reduce the interest payments.

The following was my debut post on ElPee. I know the three others I have pinged may well recall their welcome posts to me. It's been a long and fruitful relationship. ;0)

‘Bushonomics’ Plays Dangerous Game With Solvency, Deficit Spending, Shady Accounting, Social Security

Here is the link to the same article on my blog so we do not give Goldi too much traffic.

http://btpholdings.blogspot.com/2003/06/bushonomics-plays- dangerous-game-with.html

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-04   23:26:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: mirage (#20)

It is not the function of society to cater to its residents' whims or provide them their every desire.

Getting treatment for cancer is hardly a whim. I have no problem with paying taxes, and I pay a lot, IMO. I do have a problem with a government that wastes it on corporate welfare, militarism, propping up billionaire "farmers," etc. I want my money spent on things that actually help people.

I just watched Ron Paul on The Daily Show, and I respect his ideas. But leaving medical care as a for-profit industry makes as much sense as making the military a private enterprise. It's too big an issue to leave to sharks.

The free market does not cure all problems. Our country has been successful because we have a regulated free market. In the times when we allowed corporations to run wild, the result was sweatshops, rampant dishonesty (dyeing meat red, just for one example), corruption, and misery for the middle and working classes.

Mekons4  posted on  2007-06-04   23:31:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Mekons4 (#0)

Richardson evidently didn't do well,

I really can't stand him. Obama did well, he seemed more reasonable and less stressed than Edwards. Hillary came off arrogant as usual, but less condescending than she usually is.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." ~George Washington

robin  posted on  2007-06-04   23:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: BTP Holdings (#5)

Right now the WMUR poll shows Obama leading with 31% and Hillary at 30%.

Impressive.

"Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism." ~George Washington

robin  posted on  2007-06-04   23:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Mekons4 (#23)

The free market does cure all problems. In the 1950s, nobody had health insurance, but everyone could pay their medical bills.

What happened in between? Answer that question (Government) and you'll have the answer.

Remember - the more you want Government to get involved, the fewer choices and less freedom you have.

Do you want the Government to dictate what medical care you get? That is what Socialized Medicine gets you.

What we really need is Tort Reform along with lower malpractice rates and an end to the Government Handouts. Hospital bills are high because hospitals are required to treat anyone - regardless of expense - and they pass the bill along to you.

Again, Government Interference drives up the costs.

So, be careful what you wish for -- you may just get it. Also, as a wise man once said, "If you think its expensive now, just wait until its free."

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-04   23:54:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: robin (#25)

Impressive.

Not really. I'm sure it is evidence of how brain dead the Dimbots really are; much like their GOPher counterparts.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2007-06-05   0:02:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Mekons4 (#19)

the most prosperous decade in history for the middle class, apart from the GI Bill-fueled 50s.

That was due to Alan Greenspan and low interest rates which brought on the dot-com boom. It had nothing to do with Clinton. Interest rates were low in the 1950s as well, just so you know.

According to the Bureau of Public Debt the debt did not go down under Clinton.

That is for one reason: The Social Security Trust Fund. Bear in mind that the SS "Trust Fund" is no such thing. The taxes paid are dumped into the General Fund and immediately spent. The Government then issues an IOU to the Social Security Administration.

Here are the official US Government Debt figures (total debt including intra-governmental holdings) from 1990 to 2000:

09/30/2000 5,674,178,209,886.86
09/30/1999 5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 5,413,146,011,397.34
09/30/1996 5,224,810,939,135.73
09/29/1995 4,973,982,900,709.39
09/30/1994 4,692,749,910,013.32
09/30/1993 4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 4,064,620,655,521.66
09/30/1991 3,665,303,351,697.03
09/28/1990 3,233,313,451,777.25

As you can see, it was only at the end of Clinton's second term that the debt began to slow down. Then we had the dot-com recession and the 9/11 attacks.

Even if Clinton had been in office for a third term, the dot-com crash and recession would have hit and the debt would have gone up because of "fiscal stimulus" the Government would have applied.

The only real difference might have been avoiding the Iraq War, but the debt would have continued to escalate regardless.

No Federal Budget in recent (read: last 40 years) has been lower than the previous year's. None.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-05   0:13:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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