[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Donald Trump Indirectly Exposes the Jewish Neocons Behind Joe Biden's Nuclear War

Key European NATO Bases in Reach of Russia's Oreshnik Hypersonic Missile

Supervolcano Alert in Europe: Phlegraean Fields Activity Sparks Scientists Attention (Mass Starvation)

France reacted to the words of a US senator on sanctions against allies

Trump nominates former Soros executive for Treasury chief

SCOTUS asked to review if Illinois can keep counting mail-in ballots 2 weeks after election day

The Real Reason Government Workers Are Panicking About ElonÂ’s New Tracking System

THEY DON'T CARE ANYMORE!

Young Americans Are Turning Off The TV

Taxpayer Funded Censorship: How Government Is Using Your Tax Dollars To Silence Your Voice

"Terminator" Robot Dog Now Equipped With Amphibious Capabilities

Trump Plans To Use Impoundment To Cut Spending - What Is It?

Mass job losses as major factory owner moves business overseas

Israel kills IDF soldiers in Lebanon to prevent their kidnap

46% of those deaths were occurring on the day of vaccination or within two days

In 2002 the US signed the Hague Invasion Act into law

MUSK is going after WOKE DISNEY!!!

Bondi: Zuckerberg Colluded with Fauci So "They're Not Immune Anymore" from 1st Amendment Lawsuits

Ukrainian eyewitnesses claim factory was annihilated to dust by Putin's superweapon

FBI Director Wray and DHS Secretary Mayorkas have just refused to testify before the Senate...

Government adds 50K jobs monthly for two years. Half were Biden's attempt to mask a market collapse with debt.

You’ve Never Seen THIS Side Of Donald Trump

President Donald Trump Nominates Former Florida Rep. Dr. Dave Weldon as CDC Director

Joe Rogan Tells Josh Brolin His Recent Bell’s Palsy Diagnosis Could Be Linked to mRNA Vaccine

President-elect Donald Trump Nominates Brooke Rollins as Secretary of Agriculture

Trump Taps COVID-Contrarian, Staunch Public Health Critic Makary For FDA

F-35's Cooling Crisis: Design Flaws Fuel $2 Trillion Dilemma For Pentagon

Joe Rogan on Tucker Carlson and Ukraine Aid

Joe Rogan on 62 year-old soldier with one arm, one eye

Jordan Peterson On China's Social Credit Controls


Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: What do we know about the Old Testament?
Source: Giwers World
URL Source: http://www.giwersworld.org/bible/ot.phtml
Published: May 15, 2005
Author: Matt Giwer
Post Date: 2005-05-15 08:44:21 by Zoroaster
Keywords: Testament?, about, What
Views: 781
Comments: 76

What do we know about the Old Testament? by Matt Giwer, © 2005 [March] Proceeding strictly from the physical evidence the material we consider to be the Old Testament first appears in history as the Greek Septuagint. Neither belief nor argumentation is acceptable. Only physical evidence is of interest.

There is not one prior mention of such material, stories or events.

There are a few questionable translations of single words or passages. There are a few name similarities. In no case do any of these have any connection with any event or situation in the bible.

Today not one inscription has been found which predates it.

While Egypt is the most professionally dug place in the world, the playground of more archaeologists than any place else in the world, Palestine is a close second for the professionals. Palestine including Israel teams with amateurs often thwarting the antiquities laws. In addition modern Israel has had more construction per square mile in the last fifty years than Egypt will likely see in the next century. Everything from homes to highways, parking garages to high-rises, it is likely the most dug place in the world. The construction companies are ruled by the strict antiquities laws. Israel itself has both a religious and a political drive to establish biblical Israel. For the last half century Israel has financed digs aimed directly at finding physical evidence of the Old Testament. Nothing has been found.

Nor is there any sign of a Hebrew language which predates it.

There is a circular argument used by bible believers. When Phoenician inscriptions are found outside the areas the Old Testament says the Hebrews lived it is identified as Phoenician. When they are found inside those areas it is identified as proto-Hebrew. Without the Old Testament "guidance" the inscriptions are indistinguishable. What is called proto-Hebrew is Phoenician.

By the simple rule for ancient writings, the first mention of a document is the date of the document. This means the Greek Septuagint is the original document. There is no mention of the Septuagint being a translation until Josephus nearly three centuries later. The Greek Septuagint appears in history full blown without antecedent or prior mention nor today with the least physical evidence that it is other than the original.

Given the religious interest of the Christian world in evidence for the Old Testament and of the Jewish world for both religious and political evidence one would assume if the above were in error museums around the world would display the evidence I say does not exist. These are the days of the internet and many good search engines starting with Google.com. Please use it to find these artifacts. You will be disappointed.

Israeli museums should be full of them. All you will find are artifacts of other cultures mostly from the Greek and Roman period along with Phoenician, Assyrian and even Egyptian. You will find nothing specifically related to any biblical event or story.

When you get out of the professional links you will find circular reasoning from the Old Testament. A typical mention will be "dated to the time of Solomon." That is simply using bible begats to determine a time frame. We can find artifacts in the New World dated to the time of Solomon. Saying dated to the time of Solomon does not connect it to Solomon or Israel even if found in Palestine.

To be an artifact of biblical Israel it has to have some intrinsic feature which makes that connection. This is why the forged temple inscription was of such interest when it came to light in 2004. It had words roughly like those found in the Old Testament. Had it not been a forgery it would have been physical evidence and would have been the first physical evidence that the Old Testament predates the Septuagint and the latter being a translation. The same people who created this forgery are also credited with forging the "pomegranate" and the James ossuary.

In a more general sense simply showing bibleland was populated in the past is meaningless. Ever since primates started leaving Africa millions of years ago the land has been populated. Gibbons and orangutans lived there. Home Erectus, Neanderthal and Sapiens have lived there. There is no way out of Africa without passing through Palestine.

Another way of trying to salvage the Old Testament is to say "so much is known that Solomon could have been no more than a local warlord." That is not saying he was a local warlord or that he existed. It is phrased to true believers can hold on to their beliefs.

The need to believe is strong. Consider those who would believe Solomon was just a local warlord. Simply believing that says the entire Old Testament is false as there is no biblical Israel, no great kingdom, nothing. It is no different from finding an inscription outside of bibleland which only has a name similar to a name in the Old Testament and saying it confirms all of it. A find means absolutely nothing more than what it says internally. It is physical evidence only of itself.

So who wrote it? It appears about the time the Maccabees appear in history. By the physical evidence all we have of them are a couple coins with the image of the grandson of Judah Maccabee so we can't run too far with it. But it is the only confirmed event we have which coincides with the appearance of the Septuagint. Did the revolt in the books of Maccabees occur? There is no evidence of it. We have only the story in the books. Remember we only have those coins as evidence of their existence.

Why did they create it? I have no idea. It does make their claim to the land by conquest. Ownership of land by conquest was the only basis for the claim until after WWII when it was formally abjured. We have no idea if this is other than an modern aberration. Another possibility was it was a guileless creation. The land was ruled by the eastern Greek empire at the time; braggadocio in the books of Maccabees to the contrary as those books are not part of the Septuagint. In this case it would be simply recording the myths of the local people as the Greeks had recorded their myths making it a simple matter of emulation.

How could they have created such a huge work so quickly? Perhaps even creating a religion so quickly? We have seen Joseph Smith create the Book of Mormon and a successful religion which shows no signs of disappearing. We have L. Ron Hubbard creating Scientology and needs only make a few changes to avoid future criminal charges to go mainstream. Given a plethora of legends to work with cobbling something together would not be a significant challenge. Given the history of the region, essentially always ruled by so many other cultures all of those legends would have been available. Name changes and making the people related no matter how incongruous would not have been a difficult matter. For example, the life of Solomon is almost identical to the life of Ramses III. It is obviously the model.

And yes, much of the Old Testament is incongruous. We do not find anything intrinsically incongruous with fairy tales because we suspend disbelief, we feel free to fill in the blanks and explain away incongruities. As we are not only raised to believe it in but immersed in a culture which usually behaves as though it believes in it we just do not notice the incongruities. And very few of them are thrown in our faces.

In a fairytale which do not have to make sense the stories are changed in the retelling to make them more credible. Popularity chooses among the retellings. So also a bible story rarely appears on its own, start to finish. The scene is set, the story is liberally retold without regard to the original content, and we are told what it means. There are very few stories which hit us in the face as unexplainable such as Abraham sacrificing Isaac and those are subject to unending explanations.

For example the story of Adam and Eve clearly says why they were banished from Eden, to prevent them from eating of the Tree of Life and living forever to become gods themselves. But as that clear statement does not comport with the Old Testament as a religion the clearly stated reason for being banished is left out of the retelling. But if you leave it in you see why the god of the Old Testament rules with the stick instead of the carrot. And you can see why that god has no problem tormenting people like Abraham and Job.

The bible does not make sense as written. It is filled with magic and miracles therefore it is nonsense. But people are told they must understand it. People believe they are required to find ways to understand it. And there is no dearth of people explaining it in different but acceptable ways.

The point of all of this is the collection of stories in the Old Testament is not some massive, coherent work which implies some super editor in the sky. It is a set of short stories with cardboard characters loosely stitched together. As such the origin of the David and Goliath story can as easily have been based on the Tortoise and the Hare fable as anything else.

It is called great literature but it is never studied as literature as it is barely literature. What little literary merit there is exists only in the King James Version translation which introduces it. It does not come close to the quality of ancient literature.

An Afterthought What has always struck me as interesting is the interest in the "Hebrew" bible by true believers. Let us assume for the moment it is the original and the Septuagint a copy. Fine.

Is not the Septuagint a translation into a very well known, relatively unambiguous language, Greek, 2200 years closer to the original than us? Would not they be immeasurably better qualified to know the real meaning of the original than we? So why is not the Septuagint taken as the original meaning?

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 65.

#1. To: Zoroaster (#0)

I thought there was quite a bit of historical evidence for the Testiment. Even things like volcanic erruptions in Greece corrolating with the flight from Egypt - something that would provide the piller of fire/piller of cloud to guide the Israelites.

The story of Moses seems to exist in seveal cultures in the area. This tends to indicate that there really was a great neolithic flood of some sort. The black sea filled in very rapidly and neolithic settlements have been found on the sea floor. Some think this displacement is the basis for the flood story.

I'm not an expert here, but there have been several articles in the past few years in respectable journals, e.g., the french magazine Science, that note that the Bible is, if nothing else, relatively accurate historically.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-05-15   9:24:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: crack monkey (#1)

>I thought there was quite a bit of historical evidence for the Testiment. Even things like volcanic erruptions in Greece corrolating with the flight from Egypt - something that would provide the piller of fire/piller of cloud to guide the Israelites.

That is the old "the bible really happened but you can skip the miracles" gambit.

Lets look at it in practical terms. Discounting hills, Jerusalem to the Nile delta is about a week's walk. Back when Israel controlled the Sinai backpackers spent their vacations hiking to the Suez and back. It is not like it was a far away place. Around 2000 BC silk appeared in Egypt. The trade route with the north and east always passed through Palestine.

As to the volcano thing. The earth is curved. How high would it have to be to be seen in Egypt? And just how does following something north of Egypt get them anything but drowned as they march into the Med?

There is no evidence for any event in Exodus but the begats give it a date when Egypt ruled Palestine, in fact ruled all the way to the Euphrates, the New Kingdom period. You can confirm it on the web although the religion oriented sites will usually not mention the extent of the lands ruled -- very inconvenient for the myth.

If you want to give a Zionist fits, remind them Herodotus first mentioned the region of Palestine by that name around 450 BC.

Matt Giwer  posted on  2005-05-22   2:55:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Matt Giwer (#30)

interesting posts, Matt. welcome to 4.

christine  posted on  2005-05-22   9:43:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: christine, jethro tull, Matt Giwer (#34)

Thanks for the historical primer Matt, and welcome to 4.

interesting posts, Matt. welcome to 4.

Interesting as manifestations of psychological disturbance, perhaps, but history? I don't think so.

I am constantly amazed at the lengths some will go to in their desire to divest the Jewish people of their divinely-ordained identity and destiny.

And, somehow, they can deny that the Old Testament is divine revelation even as they claim to embrace Christ, when Christ affirmed OT scripture as the word of God at every turn of his ministry and called upon it repeatedly as proof of his Messiahship.

It is impossible to deny the OT (or the truth of what is revealed therein) and regard it as merely some late contrivance by Maccabeans, without also denying Christ.

Are you a Christian, Matt?

Arator  posted on  2005-05-22   16:46:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Arator, christine, jethro tull (#53)

>Interesting as manifestations of psychological disturbance, perhaps, but history? I don't think so.

We know there is no history in the Old Testament as there is no archaeological support for anything of interest in it and much well known evidence which makes all the important points impossible. So we have facts from the science of archaeology against faith in the OT.

>I am constantly amazed at the lengths some will go to in their desire to divest the Jewish people of their divinely-ordained identity and destiny.

Without a confrontational attitude the revised english jewish prayer books now contain material supporting everything I am saying. Mainly it is all metaphorical having no basis in fact although it fudges the wording on the latter. As to divinely ordained you should read mine. It is all in a book I wrote. For only $29.95 you can have your own copy.

>And, somehow, they can deny that the Old Testament is divine revelation even as they claim to embrace Christ, when Christ affirmed OT scripture as the word of God at every turn of his ministry and called upon it repeatedly as proof of his Messiahship.

I notice the OT does not claim to be divine revelation. All the books are independent. None claim any external verification of authenticity much less divine origin. The viewpoint of the author clearly cannot be from a viewpoint of divine origin.

As to Christ affirming it, no way! Unspecified "scripture" is the only assertion. The OT was not codified until after the NT was condified by Constantine. There was no official "scripture" he could possibly have meant. If in fact he did say such a thing (if in fact he existed and there is any validity to the gospels) there is no way to know what "scripture" he was talking about.

>It is impossible to deny the OT (or the truth of what is revealed therein) and regard it as merely some late contrivance by Maccabeans, without also denying Christ.

The facts cannot be anti-christian. Facts are merely facts. If you have physical evidence the OT is older than the Macabbees please post it.

>Are you a Christian, Matt?

What does that have to do with the facts?

Since you are open to calling for stake-burning at the moment, let me drop one more on you. It is as certain that Egyptians worshipped Ra that Astarte was worshipped in Jerusalem into the early first century AD and that there was a temple to her in Jerusalem. The Judeans were clearly polytheists. How do you explain the absense of mention of this in the Gospels?

Matt Giwer  posted on  2005-05-27   5:40:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 65.

#66. To: Matt Giwer (#65)

Egyptians worshipped Ra that Astarte was worshipped in Jerusalem into the early first century AD and that there was a temple to her in Jerusalem. The Judeans were clearly polytheists.

It was good that you also mention the entire lack of any archaeological evidence for the alleged 40 years wandering in the desert. It clearly didn't happen. The entire Egyptian story as related by the Jewish Supremacists is bogus, made up out of whole cloth.

1776  posted on  2005-05-27 13:50:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Matt Giwer, 1776, Jethro Tull, christine, Zipporah (#65)

As to Christ affirming it, no way! Unspecified "scripture" is the only assertion. The OT was not codified until after the NT was condified by Constantine. There was no official "scripture" he could possibly have meant. If in fact he did say such a thing (if in fact he existed and there is any validity to the gospels) there is no way to know what "scripture" he was talking about.

You obviously are an unbeliever who is ignorant of the very scriptures you attack.

I direct your attention to Luke 24, verses 25-27 and 44-49. Jesus, resurrected, meets his disciples. First, on the road to Emmaus, he says to two despairing believers who are perplexed by the accounts they've heard of an empty tomb...

"Oh how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the Prophets have spoken. Did not the Messiah have to suffer and then enter his glory? And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the scriptures concerning himself."

Moses and the Prophets refers to all the OT save the Psalms. These are the scriptures Jesus teaches of himself from. These were the only scriptures extant at the time since the NT had yet to be written.

Then, later, he says to his disciples:

"'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms.' Then he opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures."

The "Law of Moses, the Prophets, and the Psalms" is the OT. That is the scripture from which Jesus taught his disciples of himself. That is the source of the prophecies of him, prophecies which confirm his Messiahship. Jesus regarded the OT as the word of God and said to unbelievers, "If you had believed Moses, you would believe me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" ~ John 5:46-47

You don't believe Moses. I suspect you don't believe Jesus either. Because if Moses and the rest of the OT is a late contrivance of Jewish priests and not the word of God as you say, Jesus is not Messiah either. Thankfully, the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus' life, death and resurrection leave little doubt about whose view of the OT is correct. They prove the OT to be exactly what Jesus said it was: the word of God to men, just as they prove Jesus to be exactly who he said he was: our God, Messiah and King.

Arator  posted on  2005-05-28 04:33:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 65.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]