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Science/Tech
See other Science/Tech Articles

Title: Bees dropping like flies
Source: http://www.latimes.com/
URL Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/science ... 2658.story?coll=la-home-center
Published: Jun 9, 2007
Author: http://www.latimes.com/
Post Date: 2007-06-09 22:28:41 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 4229
Comments: 218

Mysterious deaths of bees take broad toll
As scientists try to explain why colonies are vanishing, worried beekeepers and farmers add up their losses.

By Jia-Rui Chong and Thomas H. Maugh II
Times Staff Writers

June 10, 2007

The dead bees under Dennis vanEngelsdorp's microscope were like none he had ever seen before.

He had expected to see mites or amoebas, perennial pests of bees. Instead, he found internal organs swollen with debris and strangely blackened. The bees' intestinal tracts were scarred, and their rectums were abnormally full of what appeared to be partly digested pollen. Dark marks on the sting glands were telltale signs of infection.

"The more you looked, the more you found," said VanEngelsdorp, the acting apiarist for the state of Pennsylvania. "Each thing was a surprise."

VanEngelsdorp's examination of the bees in November was one of the first scientific glimpses of a mysterious honeybee die-off that has launched an intense search for a cure.

The puzzling phenomenon, known as Colony Collapse Disorder, or CCD, has been reported in 35 states, five Canadian provinces and several European countries. The die-off has cost U.S. beekeepers about $150 million in losses and an uncertain amount for farmers scrambling to find bees to pollinate their crops.

Scientists have scoured the country, finding eerily abandoned hives in which the bees seem to have simply left their honey and broods of baby bees.

"We've never experienced bees going off and leaving brood behind," said Pennsylvania-based beekeeper Dave Hackenberg. "It was like a mother going off and leaving her kids."

Researchers have picked through the abandoned hives, dissected thousands of bees, and tested for viruses, bacteria, pesticides and mites.

So far, they are stumped.

According to the Apiary Inspectors of America, 24% of 384 beekeeping operations across the country lost more than 50% of their colonies from September to March. Some have lost 90%.

"I'm worried about the bees," said Dan Boyer, 52, owner of Ridgetop Orchards in Fishertown, Pa., which grows apples. "The more I learn about it, the more I think it is a national tragedy."

At Boyer's orchard, 400 acres of apple trees — McIntosh, Honey Crisp, Red Delicious and 11 other varieties — have just begun to bud white flowers.

Boyer's trees need to be pollinated. Incompletely pollinated blooms would still grow apples, he said, but the fruit would be small and misshapen, suitable only for low-profit juice.

This year, he will pay dearly for the precious bees — $13,000 for 200 hives, the same price that 300 hives cost him last year.

The scene is being repeated throughout the country, where honeybees, scientifically known as Apis mellifera, are required to pollinate a third of the nation's food crop, including almonds, cherries, blueberries, pears, strawberries and pumpkins.

Vanishing colonies

One of the earliest alarms was sounded by Hackenberg, who used to keep about 3,000 hives in dandelion-covered fields near the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania.

In November, Hackenberg, 58, was at his winter base in Florida. He peeked in on a group of 400 beehives he had driven down from his home in West Milton, Pa., a month before. He went from empty box to empty box. Only about 40 had bees in them.

"It was just the most phenomenal thing I thought I'd ever seen," he said.

The next morning, Hackenberg called Jerry Hayes, the chief of apiary inspection at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services and president of the Apiary Inspectors of America.

Hayes mentioned some bee die-offs in Georgia that, until then, hadn't seemed significant.

Hackenberg drove back to West Milton with a couple of dead beehives and live colonies that had survived. He handed them over to researchers at Pennsylvania State University.

With amazing speed, the bees vanished from his other hives, more than 70% of which were abandoned by February.

Hackenberg, a talkative, wiry man with a deeply lined face, figured he lost more than $460,000 this winter for replacement bees, lost honey and missed pollination opportunities.

"If that happens again, we're out of business," he said.

It didn't take researchers long to figure out they were dealing with something new.

VanEngelsdorp, a sandy-bearded 37-year-old, quickly eliminated the most obvious suspects: Varroa and tracheal mites, which have occasionally wrought damage on hives since the 1980s.

At the state lab in Harrisburg, Pa., VanEngelsdorp checked bee samples from Pennsylvania and Georgia. He washed bees with soapy water to dislodge Varroa mites and cut the thorax of the bees to look for tracheal mites; he found that the number of mites was not unusually high.

His next guess was amoebic infection. He scanned the bees' kidneys for cysts and found a handful, but not enough to explain the population decline.

VanEngelsdorp dug through scientific literature looking for other mass disappearances.

He found the first reference in a 1869 federal report, detailing a mysterious bee disappearance. There was only speculation as to the cause — possibly poisonous honey or maybe a hot summer.

A 1923 handbook on bee culture noted that a "disappearing disease" went away in a short time without treatment. There was a reference to "fall dwindle" in a 1965 scientific article to describe sudden disappearances in Texas and Louisiana.

He found other references but no explanations.

VanEngelsdorp traveled to Florida and California at the beginning of the year to collect adult bees, brood, nectar, pollen and comb for a more systematic study. He went to 11 apiaries, both sick and healthy, and collected 102 colonies.

A number of the pollen samples went to Maryann Frazier, a honeybee specialist at Penn State who has been coordinating the pesticide investigation. Her group has been testing for 106 chemicals used to kill mites, funguses or other pests.

Scientists have focused on a new group of pesticides known as neonicotinoids, which have spiked in popularity because they are safe for people, Frazier said. Previous studies have shown that these pesticides can kill bees and throw off their ability to learn and navigate, she said.

Researchers have yet to collect enough data to come to any conclusions, but the experience of French beekeepers casts doubt on the theory. France banned the most commonly used neonicotinoid in 1999 after complaints from beekeepers that it was killing their colonies. French hives, however, are doing no better now, experts said.

Sniffing out the culprit

Entomologist Jerry J. Bromenshenk of the University of Montana launched his own search for poisons, relying on the enhanced odor sensitivity of bees — about 40 times better than that of humans.

When a colony is exposed to a new chemical odor, he said, its sound changes in volume and frequency, producing a unique audio signature.

Bromenshenk has been visiting beekeepers around the country, recording hive sounds and taking them back to his lab for analysis. To date, no good candidates have surfaced.

If the cause is not a poison, it is most likely a parasite.

UC San Francisco researchers announced in April that they had found a single-celled protozoan called Nosema ceranae in bees from colonies with the collapse disorder.

Unfortunately, Bromenshenk said, "we see equal levels of Nosema in CCD colonies and healthy colonies."

Several researchers, including entomologist Diana Cox-Foster of Penn State and Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, a virologist at Columbia University, have been sifting through bees that have been ground up, looking for viruses and bacteria.

"We were shocked by the huge number of pathogens present in each adult bee," Cox-Foster said at a recent meeting of bee researchers convened by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

The large number of pathogens suggested, she said, that the bees' immune systems had been suppressed, allowing the proliferation of infections.

The idea that a pathogen is involved is supported by recent experiments conducted by VanEngelsdorp and USDA entomologist Jeffrey S. Pettis.

One of the unusual features of the disorder is that the predators of abandoned beehives, such as hive beetles and wax moths, refuse to venture into infected hives for weeks or longer.

"It's as if there is something repellent or toxic about the colony," said Hayes, the Florida inspector.

To test this idea, VanEngelsdorp and Pettis set up 200 beehive boxes with new, healthy bees from Australia and placed them in the care of Hackenberg.

Fifty of the hives were irradiated to kill potential pathogens. Fifty were fumigated with concentrated acetic acid, a hive cleanser commonly used in Canada. Fifty were filled with honey frames that had been taken from Hackenberg's colonies before the collapse, and the last 50 were hives that had been abandoned that winter.

When VanEngelsdorp visited the colonies at the beginning of May, bees in the untouched hive were clearly struggling, filling only about a quarter of a frame. Bees living on the reused honeycomb were alive but not thriving. A hive that had been fumigated with acetic acid was better.

When he popped open an irradiated hive, bees were crawling everywhere. "This does imply there is something biological," he said.

If it is a pathogen or a parasite, honeybees are poorly equipped to deal with it, said entomologist May Berenbaum of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.

The honeybee genome has only half as many genes to detoxify poisons and to fight off infections as do other insects.

"There is something about the life of the honeybee that has led to the loss of a lot of genes associated with detoxification, associated with the immune system," she said.

Bee conspiracies

In the absence of knowledge, theories have proliferated, including one that Osama bin Laden has engineered the die-off to disrupt American agriculture.

One of the most pervasive theories is that cellphone transmissions are causing the disappearances — an idea that originated with a recent German study. Berenbaum called the theory "a complete figment of the imagination."

The German physicist who conducted the tiny study "disclaimed the connection to cellphones," she said. "What they put in the colony was a cordless phone. Whoever translated the story didn't know the difference."

Another popular theory is that the bees have been harmed by corn genetically engineered to contain the pesticide B.t.

Berenbaum shot down the idea: "Here in Illinois, we're surrounded by an ocean of B.t. pollen, and the bees are not afflicted."

And so the search continues.

Many beekeepers have few options but to start rebuilding. Gene Brandi, a veteran beekeeper based in Los Banos, Calif., lost 40% of his 2,000 colonies this winter.

Brandi knows plenty of beekeepers who sold their equipment at bargain prices.

Scurrying around a blackberry farm near Watsonville, Brandi was restocking his bees. Dressed in a white jumpsuit and yellow bee veil, the exuberant 55-year-old pulled out a frame of honeycomb from a hive that had so many bees they were spilling out the front entrance.

"When it's going good like this, you forget CCD," he said.

Hackenberg, who has spent his whole life in the business, isn't giving up either. He borrowed money and restocked with bees from Australia.

In April, the normally hale Hackenberg started feeling short of breath. His doctor said he was suffering from stress and suggested he slow down.

Not now, Hackenberg thought. "I'm going to go down fighting."

jia-rui.chong@latimes.com, thomas.maugh@latimes.com

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#89. To: wudidiz (#88)

I tried "I think you look beautiful."

That worked.

You have wisdom far beyond your tender years.....

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-10   7:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: HOUNDDAWG (#89)

Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory.

For ever and ever.

Amen

The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein

wudidiz  posted on  2007-06-10   7:49:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: HOUNDDAWG (#89)

You have wisdom far beyond your tender years.....

Thank you. I think.

;^)

The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein

wudidiz  posted on  2007-06-10   7:51:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: HOUNDDAWG (#86)

"Honey, does this dress make my butt look fat?"

"How do I look?"

"You look just fine."

Don' EVER say "just fine." The female brain perceive it as "fat and ugly."

Freeper motto: I read, but do not understand, I write, but make no sense, I think, but nothing happens.

YertleTurtle  posted on  2007-06-10   7:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: YertleTurtle (#92)

"Honey, does this dress make my butt look fat?"

"How do I look?"

"You look just fine."

Don' EVER say "just fine." The female brain perceive it as "fat and ugly."

lol!

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-10   8:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: FormerLurker, JCHarris (#51)

You may have been more right than I thought.

It was BrerRabbit that came up with it. He is a molecular biologist; I figure he knows a thing or two.


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.

farmfriend  posted on  2007-06-10   11:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: wudidiz (#60)

I'm learning HTML 'n' stuff

LOL!


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.

farmfriend  posted on  2007-06-10   11:32:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: IndieTX (#74)

The bastards have ALLOWED us to be infected with mad cow by refusing to allow extensive testing even by private owners.

That should have raised red flags with everyone. Private testing should have been the first choice. Get private testing, certification by a third party and carry insurance. This should be the method used in all types of agriculture AND in environmental programs! The people could log their own land, mine etc. After all the Nature Conservancy does it, why can't you!


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.

farmfriend  posted on  2007-06-10   11:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: wudidiz (#79)

Chicks Dig the TRUTH

LOL!


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.

farmfriend  posted on  2007-06-10   11:38:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: YertleTurtle, HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz (#92)

Don' EVER say "just fine." The female brain perceive it as "fat and ugly."

We carry a hormone filter that changes the sounds of male speech. I got a good joke for you guys. I'll just give you a link rather than post the whole thing. You'll enjoy it.

The Secrets of Women's Language - A must-read for any man


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.

farmfriend  posted on  2007-06-10   11:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: farmfriendm JCHarris (#94)

It was BrerRabbit that came up with it. He is a molecular biologist; I figure he knows a thing or two.

Surprisingly, he didn't know about the case in France back in 1984 and how it was due to spiroplasma. Or at least he didn't say he knew about it.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   11:51:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: farmfriend (#96)

That should have raised red flags with everyone. Private testing should have been the first choice. Get private testing, certification by a third party and carry insurance. This should be the method used in all types of agriculture AND in environmental programs! The people could log their own land, mine etc. After all the Nature Conservancy does it, why can't you!

The testing is sort of difficult to do, as it involves using an electron microscope I believe, and the researcher REALLY needs to know what he's doing.

Not the sort of test a small lab could do.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   11:54:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: All (#94)

Suddenly, the bees are simply vanishing Scientists are at a loss to pinpoint the cause. The die-off in 35 states has crippled beekeepers and threatened many crops.

By Jia-Rui Chong and Thomas H. Maugh II,

LA Times Staff Writers

June 10, 2007

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-06-10   12:01:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: FormerLurker (#37)

don't have suppressed immune systems

No one has shown any information to indicate an exogenously, versus by endogenous parasite, suppression of the immune system.

One study collected dead bees at the hive entrance and reported on myriad parasites and pathogens....exactly what you would expect from aged dead bees.

Another study noted the "forgetfulness" syndrome and the attempt to form wild hives which , naturally, succumbed to infestations because they were not under the care of beekeepers and management practices to defeat mites etc.

The best study so far is one in which multiple hives were sterilized with radiation or not sterilized and then placed in the same environment. The colonies in the sterilized hives did much better than the "identical" colonies in the non-sterilized hives.

This study indicates a pathogen rather than a chemical.

The alternate oremise is neo-nicotinoids which have spikes in usage by ChemLawn, the agribusiness etc in just the last three years. The neo-nicotinoids have definitively been shown in the past to produce " Alzheimers like forgetting behavior" similar or the same as witnessed in Colony Collapse Disorder.

The sterilization of hives study lends new impetus to a pathogen.

Neo-nicotinoids are also still on the table.

Normal die-offs and the usual pests are not except as opportunists allowed dominance by an added pathogen or neo-nicotinoids.

Time will tell.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   12:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: FormerLurker (#40)

weaponized mycoplasma

Mycoplasma is too ubiquitous to need weaponization. Just open a flask of RPMI outside a sterile hood and see.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   12:30:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: FormerLurker (#51)

You may have been more right than I thought. A wasting disease caused by spiroplasmas certainly would appear to be similar to Alzheimer's. See the posts above..

This is a distinct possibility.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   12:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Jethro Tull, Former Lurker, christine, ALL (#101)

Not sure what is going on with the bees, but they are spraying over East Tennessee right now...the usual criss-cross pattern...I saw the jet that was leaving the trail, but it was way too high to identify. I used to think this was BS, but I have pointed out the difference between a contrail and a chemtrail to friends who are pilot, and they both agree that something weird is going on.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   12:46:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: JCHarris (#102)

This study indicates a pathogen rather than a chemical.

Precisely.

I wonder why there isn't any mention of tests related to spiroplasma considering France experienced a problem with that very thing regarding bees in 1984.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   12:51:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: who knows what evil (#105)

If you could find out if there are cases of Colony Collaspse Disorder in your area, it would be interesting to know. I myself think there is a correlation.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   12:52:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: FormerLurker (#107)

Someone made a comment on the internet yesterday stating that honeybees were making a comeback in this area...can't have that, I guess. :-(

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   12:55:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: FormerLurker, christine, innieway, farmfriend, Jethro Tull, IndieTx, Zipporah (#106)

The state beekeepers associations are the ones doing all this right now. There was recently a large meeting in Charlotte NC of just the scientists, those with documented observations, research committees and people like Wyatt Mangum, a mathematics professor, et al. who carry the water for everybody at no compensation.

There is little federal funding beyond the same shills 'churning ' for the past decade the same old crap over and over for grants as cronies of those who dole out the funds.

Beekeepers are traditionally not liked by the NeoCons and Federal government liberals. They are far too independent and that trait was destined to be attacked twenty or more years ago.

All efforts are being expended and there are some very savvy beekeeping scientists...outside the Shilldom of the NeoCon Crony Federal Juggernaut.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   13:08:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: JCHarris (#109)

Western North Carolina and East Tennessee are heavy agricultural areas...if aerial spraying is going on to affect the bee population; what is happening to the vegetables all of this stuff is settling upon?

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   13:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: who knows what evil (#110)

.if aerial spraying is going on to affect the bee population; what is happening to the vegetables all of this stuff is settling upon?

There is little if any aerial "spraying" that I know of anymore. The practice is diminishing rapidly as herbicides like roundup ( glyphosate) are applied from tractors. I have never heard of neo-nicotinoids being applied by aerial spray although it is not impossible.

I believe BT ( Bacillus thuriengensis) may be applied by aerial spray for things like gypsy moth. Increasingly the spray is not needed because the BT toxin is in the corn itself.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   13:46:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: JCHarris (#111)

I was referring to the high altitude 'spraying' that many call 'chemtrails'. There were jets laying down criss-cross patterns all over WNC and East Tennessee around noon. Some believe this may affecting the bees, and who knows what else? Whatever it is...it's just hanging in the sky, lowering and spreading by the hour. I'll be staying inside today. :-)

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   14:07:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: who knows what evil (#112)

I was referring to the high altitude 'spraying' that many call 'chemtrails'. There were jets laying down criss-cross patterns all over WNC and East Tennessee around noon. Some believe this may affecting the bees, and who knows what else? Whatever it is...it's just hanging in the sky, lowering and spreading by the hour. I'll be staying inside today. :-)

IMO

an urban legend...

contrails, their width, appearance, longevity etc depend on the atmospheric conditions most closely related to relative humidity in the upper regions .

Want to know if it is going to rain? Look for the contrails to last and last and last ....thus stretch across the sky.

No contrails means it is not going to rain.

Connect the dots and count the X's

http://www.usairways.com/awa/content/routemap.aspx

http://www.continental.com/web/en-us/content/travel/routes/co-us_200706.pdf

http://www.mapempire.com/air.htm

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   14:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: JCHarris (#113)

IMO

an urban legend...

I'm old enough to remember when vapor trails from planes dissipated before the plane was halfway across the horizon.

The never hung there the way they do now.

If you refuse to see that something is amiss, then you may have your head jammed in your ass.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-10   14:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: HOUNDDAWG (#114)

I'm old enough to remember when vapor trails from planes dissipated before the plane was halfway across the horizon.

The never hung there the way they do now.

If you refuse to see that something is amiss, then you may have your head jammed in your ass.

HOUNDDAWG

1. Many many more airlines today; not as many then (and no jets to speak of when you were young)

2. No preconditioned notion for the urban legend "chemtrails from spraying"

3. you just did not pay attention to the atmospheric conditions

Pay closer attention now and record the short disappearing contrail and record next to it the rainfall/cloud cover from the record every day for three days.

Do the very same thing for the "across the sky and wide " contrails. Then ping me please.

(-:

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   14:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: JCHarris (#115)

(and no jets to speak of when you were young)

Well, it's true that Wilbur and Orville didn't use jets, but they didn't leave vapor trails either.

The Boeing 707 was invented in the 1950's and "dominated passenger air transport in the 1960's".

Just how old do you think I am?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-10   14:48:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: HOUNDDAWG (#116)

1. Well, it's true that Wilbur and Orville didn't use jets, but they didn't leave vapor trails either.

2. The Boeing 707 was invented in the 1950's and "dominated passenger air transport in the 1960's".

3. Just how old do you think I am?

1. LOL...just not high enough? (-:

2. Count the numbers not the invention date...I think the 737 was the workhorse commuter NY-Charlotte-Atlanta-Miami

3. 65-70 ??? (-: you asked the question (-:

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   15:01:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: JCHarris (#113)

Want to know if it is going to rain? Look for the contrails to last and last and last ....thus stretch across the sky.

No rain in this area until AT LEAST Thursday...it has been dry as a bone; this area is running 11 inches below normal rainfall. I used to think chemtrails were BS, but that is no longer the case. We'll just have to 'agree to disagree' on this one.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   15:15:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: HOUNDDAWG (#114)

I'm old enough to remember when vapor trails from planes dissipated before the plane was halfway across the horizon.

We just saw a CONTRAIL yesterday...evaporated within a few seconds. These things today? I saw the jets flying a criss-cross pattern...the trail just sat there...spread out, descending in altitude. Weather the SAME as yesterday, although I can't speak for 'higher altitudes'.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   15:19:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: who knows what evil (#118)

Pay closer attention now and record the short disappearing contrail and record next to it the rainfall/cloud cover from the record every day for three days.

Do the very same thing for the "across the sky and wide " contrails. Then ping me please.

(-:

Ever been outside on foot for a month or longer with no amenities? You would learn to read the cirrus clouds...which is essentially what the contrails are. 72 hour predictors.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   15:23:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: JCHarris, who knows what evil (#113)

IMO

an urban legend...

contrails, their width, appearance, longevity etc depend on the atmospheric conditions most closely related to relative humidity in the upper regions .

I think any halfway intelligent person beyond 1st grade knows what a contrail is. Many of us have been around for more than a few decades, and know what contrails look like, and what we've seen in the sky AT TIMES from 1996 onwards are NOT regular contrails. For lack of a better term, people call them CHEMTRAILS, as it is apparent that something is being sprayed.

The hot exhaust from a jet engine when hitting moist cold air causes water vapor to appear, but water vapor dissipates rather rapidly, and does not leave greenish purpleish highlights in the sky, nor does it expand into clouds.

People that deny this phenonemon exists must think that everybody that's seen it is either stupid, or simply making it up. Perhaps I'll post more info on it later today, for now I have to run.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   15:47:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: JCHarris (#120)

Pay closer attention now and record the short disappearing contrail and record next to it the rainfall/cloud cover from the record every day for three days.

Do the very same thing for the "across the sky and wide " contrails. Then ping me please.

I've personally seen high altitude jets coming from over the horizon leave CONTRAILS, then at a certain point leave CHEMTRAILS, turn off whatever it is that causes CHEMTRAILS, make a 180 turn, and begin leaving CHEMTRAILS again.

I've seen up to four jets in the sky at a time doing this. This isn't just ordinary airline traffic, nor is it normal for military aircraft to fly such patterns.

I've read that people have checked with the FAA and discovered that there were no commericial OR military aircraft in the area at the time of these sightings.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-06-10   15:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: FormerLurker (#121)

but water vapor dissipates rather rapidly

depends on atmospheric conditions....

it is a solubility issue of ice sublimation

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   15:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: JCHarris (#120)

Pay closer attention now and record the short disappearing contrail and record next to it the rainfall/cloud cover from the record every day for three days.

My pleasure...there is a jet right at this moment flying across the western sky...contrail behind it evaporating within a few seconds. One degree warmer than it was at noon; otherwise, all surface conditions the same. Sky was blue earlier; now hazy from 'whatever' was being spread by activity at noon. I would prefer your explanation be the right one, but I am very suspicious that something else is going on here...

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   16:19:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: JCHarris (#120)

Ever been outside on foot for a month or longer with no amenities?

Yes...on the AT.

You would learn to read the cirrus clouds...which is essentially what the contrails are. 72 hour predictors.

I am familiar with them...I have 'dabbled' in meteorology for decades.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-06-10   16:21:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: JCHarris (#109)

The state beekeepers associations are the ones doing all this right now. There was recently a large meeting in Charlotte NC of just the scientists, those with documented observations, research committees and people like Wyatt Mangum, a mathematics professor, et al. who carry the water for everybody at no compensation.

There is little federal funding beyond the same shills 'churning ' for the past decade the same old crap over and over for grants as cronies of those who dole out the funds.

Beekeepers are traditionally not liked by the NeoCons and Federal government liberals. They are far too independent and that trait was destined to be attacked twenty or more years ago.

All efforts are being expended and there are some very savvy beekeeping scientists...outside the Shilldom of the NeoCon Crony Federal Juggernaut.

Seems this needs to be put into the category of major importance as if the bees all go we are pretty much screwed.. well thats not exactly a scientific term now is it? :P

An observation.. I've not see a honey bee in my area for at least two summers..

Zipporah  posted on  2007-06-10   17:12:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Zipporah (#126)

pretty much screwed

about as scientific as one can get... no dissembling there !

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   17:48:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Zipporah (#126)

An observation.. I've not see a honey bee in my area for at least two summers..

Zipporah

USDA ( and Sesame Street...you know the little Doo Bee...and all the MSM ) has been in denial for some years now.

For all practical purposes, the honeybee, Apis mellifera, is extinct in the wild. There was not a peep from Natl Geo et al.

The bees doing the heavy lifting are the ones receiving TLC from a beekeeper, the majority of whom are independent and hobby or semi-hobby.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-10   17:51:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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