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Title: Bees dropping like flies
Source:
http://www.latimes.com/
URL Source: http://www.latimes.com/news/science ... 2658.story?coll=la-home-center
Published: Jun 9, 2007
Author: http://www.latimes.com/
Post Date: 2007-06-09 22:28:41 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 4218
Comments: 218
Mysterious deaths of bees take broad toll By Jia-Rui Chong and Thomas H. Maugh II June 10, 2007 The dead bees under Dennis vanEngelsdorp's microscope were like none he had ever seen before. He had expected to see mites or amoebas, perennial pests of bees. Instead, he found internal organs swollen with debris and strangely blackened. The bees' intestinal tracts were scarred, and their rectums were abnormally full of what appeared to be partly digested pollen. Dark marks on the sting glands were telltale signs of infection. "The more you looked, the more you found," said VanEngelsdorp, the acting apiarist for the state of Pennsylvania. "Each thing was a surprise." VanEngelsdorp's examination of the bees in November was one of the first scientific glimpses of a mysterious honeybee die-off that has launched an intense search for a cure. The puzzling phenomenon, known as Colony Collapse Disorder, or CCD, has been reported in 35 states, five Canadian provinces and several European countries. The die-off has cost U.S. beekeepers about $150 million in losses and an uncertain amount for farmers scrambling to find bees to pollinate their crops. Scientists have scoured the country, finding eerily abandoned hives in which the bees seem to have simply left their honey and broods of baby bees. "We've never experienced bees going off and leaving brood behind," said Pennsylvania-based beekeeper Dave Hackenberg. "It was like a mother going off and leaving her kids." Researchers have picked through the abandoned hives, dissected thousands of bees, and tested for viruses, bacteria, pesticides and mites. So far, they are stumped. According to the Apiary Inspectors of America, 24% of 384 beekeeping operations across the country lost more than 50% of their colonies from September to March. Some have lost 90%. "I'm worried about the bees," said Dan Boyer, 52, owner of Ridgetop Orchards in Fishertown, Pa., which grows apples. "The more I learn about it, the more I think it is a national tragedy." At Boyer's orchard, 400 acres of apple trees — McIntosh, Honey Crisp, Red Delicious and 11 other varieties — have just begun to bud white flowers. Boyer's trees need to be pollinated. Incompletely pollinated blooms would still grow apples, he said, but the fruit would be small and misshapen, suitable only for low-profit juice. This year, he will pay dearly for the precious bees — $13,000 for 200 hives, the same price that 300 hives cost him last year. The scene is being repeated throughout the country, where honeybees, scientifically known as Apis mellifera, are required to pollinate a third of the nation's food crop, including almonds, cherries, blueberries, pears, strawberries and pumpkins. Vanishing colonies One of the earliest alarms was sounded by Hackenberg, who used to keep about 3,000 hives in dandelion-covered fields near the Susquehanna River in Pennsylvania. In November, Hackenberg, 58, was at his winter base in Florida. He peeked in on a group of 400 beehives he had driven down from his home in West Milton, Pa., a month before. He went from empty box to empty box. Only about 40 had bees in them. "It was just the most phenomenal thing I thought I'd ever seen," he said. The next morning, Hackenberg called Jerry Hayes, the chief of apiary inspection at the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services and president of the Apiary Inspectors of America. Hayes mentioned some bee die-offs in Georgia that, until then, hadn't seemed significant. Hackenberg drove back to West Milton with a couple of dead beehives and live colonies that had survived. He handed them over to researchers at Pennsylvania State University. With amazing speed, the bees vanished from his other hives, more than 70% of which were abandoned by February. Hackenberg, a talkative, wiry man with a deeply lined face, figured he lost more than $460,000 this winter for replacement bees, lost honey and missed pollination opportunities. "If that happens again, we're out of business," he said. It didn't take researchers long to figure out they were dealing with something new. VanEngelsdorp, a sandy-bearded 37-year-old, quickly eliminated the most obvious suspects: Varroa and tracheal mites, which have occasionally wrought damage on hives since the 1980s. At the state lab in Harrisburg, Pa., VanEngelsdorp checked bee samples from Pennsylvania and Georgia. He washed bees with soapy water to dislodge Varroa mites and cut the thorax of the bees to look for tracheal mites; he found that the number of mites was not unusually high. His next guess was amoebic infection. He scanned the bees' kidneys for cysts and found a handful, but not enough to explain the population decline. VanEngelsdorp dug through scientific literature looking for other mass disappearances. He found the first reference in a 1869 federal report, detailing a mysterious bee disappearance. There was only speculation as to the cause — possibly poisonous honey or maybe a hot summer. A 1923 handbook on bee culture noted that a "disappearing disease" went away in a short time without treatment. There was a reference to "fall dwindle" in a 1965 scientific article to describe sudden disappearances in Texas and Louisiana. He found other references but no explanations. VanEngelsdorp traveled to Florida and California at the beginning of the year to collect adult bees, brood, nectar, pollen and comb for a more systematic study. He went to 11 apiaries, both sick and healthy, and collected 102 colonies. A number of the pollen samples went to Maryann Frazier, a honeybee specialist at Penn State who has been coordinating the pesticide investigation. Her group has been testing for 106 chemicals used to kill mites, funguses or other pests. Scientists have focused on a new group of pesticides known as neonicotinoids, which have spiked in popularity because they are safe for people, Frazier said. Previous studies have shown that these pesticides can kill bees and throw off their ability to learn and navigate, she said. Researchers have yet to collect enough data to come to any conclusions, but the experience of French beekeepers casts doubt on the theory. France banned the most commonly used neonicotinoid in 1999 after complaints from beekeepers that it was killing their colonies. French hives, however, are doing no better now, experts said. Sniffing out the culprit Entomologist Jerry J. Bromenshenk of the University of Montana launched his own search for poisons, relying on the enhanced odor sensitivity of bees — about 40 times better than that of humans. When a colony is exposed to a new chemical odor, he said, its sound changes in volume and frequency, producing a unique audio signature. Bromenshenk has been visiting beekeepers around the country, recording hive sounds and taking them back to his lab for analysis. To date, no good candidates have surfaced. If the cause is not a poison, it is most likely a parasite. UC San Francisco researchers announced in April that they had found a single-celled protozoan called Nosema ceranae in bees from colonies with the collapse disorder. Unfortunately, Bromenshenk said, "we see equal levels of Nosema in CCD colonies and healthy colonies." Several researchers, including entomologist Diana Cox-Foster of Penn State and Dr. W. Ian Lipkin, a virologist at Columbia University, have been sifting through bees that have been ground up, looking for viruses and bacteria. "We were shocked by the huge number of pathogens present in each adult bee," Cox-Foster said at a recent meeting of bee researchers convened by the U.S. Department of Agriculture. The large number of pathogens suggested, she said, that the bees' immune systems had been suppressed, allowing the proliferation of infections. The idea that a pathogen is involved is supported by recent experiments conducted by VanEngelsdorp and USDA entomologist Jeffrey S. Pettis. One of the unusual features of the disorder is that the predators of abandoned beehives, such as hive beetles and wax moths, refuse to venture into infected hives for weeks or longer. "It's as if there is something repellent or toxic about the colony," said Hayes, the Florida inspector. To test this idea, VanEngelsdorp and Pettis set up 200 beehive boxes with new, healthy bees from Australia and placed them in the care of Hackenberg. Fifty of the hives were irradiated to kill potential pathogens. Fifty were fumigated with concentrated acetic acid, a hive cleanser commonly used in Canada. Fifty were filled with honey frames that had been taken from Hackenberg's colonies before the collapse, and the last 50 were hives that had been abandoned that winter. When VanEngelsdorp visited the colonies at the beginning of May, bees in the untouched hive were clearly struggling, filling only about a quarter of a frame. Bees living on the reused honeycomb were alive but not thriving. A hive that had been fumigated with acetic acid was better. When he popped open an irradiated hive, bees were crawling everywhere. "This does imply there is something biological," he said. If it is a pathogen or a parasite, honeybees are poorly equipped to deal with it, said entomologist May Berenbaum of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. The honeybee genome has only half as many genes to detoxify poisons and to fight off infections as do other insects. "There is something about the life of the honeybee that has led to the loss of a lot of genes associated with detoxification, associated with the immune system," she said. Bee conspiracies In the absence of knowledge, theories have proliferated, including one that Osama bin Laden has engineered the die-off to disrupt American agriculture. One of the most pervasive theories is that cellphone transmissions are causing the disappearances — an idea that originated with a recent German study. Berenbaum called the theory "a complete figment of the imagination." The German physicist who conducted the tiny study "disclaimed the connection to cellphones," she said. "What they put in the colony was a cordless phone. Whoever translated the story didn't know the difference." Another popular theory is that the bees have been harmed by corn genetically engineered to contain the pesticide B.t. Berenbaum shot down the idea: "Here in Illinois, we're surrounded by an ocean of B.t. pollen, and the bees are not afflicted." And so the search continues. Many beekeepers have few options but to start rebuilding. Gene Brandi, a veteran beekeeper based in Los Banos, Calif., lost 40% of his 2,000 colonies this winter. Brandi knows plenty of beekeepers who sold their equipment at bargain prices. Scurrying around a blackberry farm near Watsonville, Brandi was restocking his bees. Dressed in a white jumpsuit and yellow bee veil, the exuberant 55-year-old pulled out a frame of honeycomb from a hive that had so many bees they were spilling out the front entrance. "When it's going good like this, you forget CCD," he said. Hackenberg, who has spent his whole life in the business, isn't giving up either. He borrowed money and restocked with bees from Australia. In April, the normally hale Hackenberg started feeling short of breath. His doctor said he was suffering from stress and suggested he slow down. Not now, Hackenberg thought. "I'm going to go down fighting." jia-rui.chong@latimes.com, thomas.maugh@latimes.com
As scientists try to explain why colonies are vanishing, worried beekeepers and farmers add up their losses.
Times Staff Writers
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#135. To: Neil McIver (#132)
Organic bees not affected according to some
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition First define an "organic hive".
I and others posted it all the time on FR way back when I first became acquainted with a certain shotgun-toting person !! (-:
I will not touch honey from China with a 10 foot pole. It is ersatz and no way to know what has been added or what has contaminated it. Lucky I still have a local source here until I can get a couple hives going next year.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
According to the main article, however, the bees did not have an unusual number of mites. Their intestines were scarred, and they showed signs of infection. The experiments with the hives demonstrate that the cause is biological, not chemical related. Also, scientific literature reports that bees infected with the spiroplama bacteria exhibit the exact symptoms that the bees are currently experiencing, including death. This same thing happened in France in 1984, where spiroplama strains were responsible. From Pathogenicity of Spiroplasma apis and other spiroplasmas for honey-bees in southwestern France And from Some biological features of Mollicutes [PDF] Additionally, spiroplasmas appear to be the causitive agent in regards to Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies, which includes mad cow disease, scrapies, chronic wasting disease, and the human variant, Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (CJD). I've still not been able to confirm this. But, it seems that the rise in cell phone and other communications may have someting to do with it. Electromagnetic radiation has always had a bad effect on bees and it causes them to lose their navigation abilities. There's very few places now without cell towers and microwave transmission with the government plan to track everything with RFID chips coming closer.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
From the main article... One of the unusual features of the disorder is that the predators of abandoned beehives, such as hive beetles and wax moths, refuse to venture into infected hives for weeks or longer. "It's as if there is something repellent or toxic about the colony," said Hayes, the Florida inspector. To test this idea, VanEngelsdorp and Pettis set up 200 beehive boxes with new, healthy bees from Australia and placed them in the care of Hackenberg. Fifty of the hives were irradiated to kill potential pathogens. Fifty were fumigated with concentrated acetic acid, a hive cleanser commonly used in Canada. Fifty were filled with honey frames that had been taken from Hackenberg's colonies before the collapse, and the last 50 were hives that had been abandoned that winter. When VanEngelsdorp visited the colonies at the beginning of May, bees in the untouched hive were clearly struggling, filling only about a quarter of a frame. Bees living on the reused honeycomb were alive but not thriving. A hive that had been fumigated with acetic acid was better. When he popped open an irradiated hive, bees were crawling everywhere. "This does imply there is something biological," he said.
That really tells me little. I had a few hives way back in the 80s before the mite infestation got bad. Had to give them up because of back injuries. One thing I never used on them was drugs or other substances. You could say I was running a natural product and it sure was good stuff. Yum! There are going to be several factors which come into play with this CCD epidemic. To think it may be something inocuous or innocent would not be my first choice considering the globalists plan to depopulate the world by half.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
For one thing, according to the linked article, industrial practice has been to create larger cells in which the queen lays eggs and in which bees grow. These slightly larger cells can create bees that are as much as 50% bigger than natural bees. I understand standard practice is to use chemicals and such on the hives to kill pathogens. Certainly an organic beekeeper would decline to do such a thing, at least with lab produced chemicals and antibiotics.
I tend to doubt it since this CCD has started rather suddenly and cell towers have been going up steadily for some time.
I heard the same thing at a cookout discussion last weekend. I can't confirm if it's true though.
I know of no such "study" and I just got back from a beekeepers science review and research session in Charlotte...
No. We discussed it then.
They've been going up steadily for over 10 years all over the country at a very rapid pace. The studies I am talking about are not new with power line EMF affecting bees. I was just reading in June, 2007 AcresUSA (Page 8) about this. There are new studies. "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
I have seen contrails that start and stop like what's pictured, but I have always been doubtful that they have been intentional. Just because patch of sky is clear does not mean that the conditions are uniform throughout that area. All it means is that none of the one or more conditions present are compatible for cloud formation. Humidity, wind speed and direction can all vary. Typically, weather reports to pilots include wind speed and direction at various altitudes since they don't all move the same. And the picture even shows other clouds in the area. One logic question: If clouds can start and stop in an otherwise blue patch of sky, why couldn't a contrail? I would not rule out modern jet engines being more prone to contrails than those of the 60's and 70's, or differing fuel compositions that could play a role, and I would certainly find it easy to believe that the airline industry would be willing to sacrifice our environment to better their profits, but I still doubt that pilots of commercial aircraft are dumping chemicals that are not "normal" exhaust via an on/off switch. Carrying such stuff to 30,000 feet would be an extra load on the plane and would burn more fuel, which translates to lost revenue for the airline carrier. Then there's the question of what there is to gain from such chemical dumping. Winds at altitude are usually 40 MPH or thereabouts and any chemicals dumped would be hard to steer as it fell to the ground.
If your referring to the claim of organic hives not losing bees as a "study", it's not. It's just a claim/report at this point. No study is needed to substantiate whether it's true or not. It's just a question of fact (or not).
Not so sure. But yesterday, the day after a rain, the sky here was clear blue for the first time in weeks. Today it was a criss cross of trails and we got the usual rain that that seems to follow this pattern of chemtrails at about 5 or 6 this afternoon. FYI, Col. Donn de Grand Pre told me once that not only HAARP is responsible for weather modification. But that there is a certain amount of spraying going on that affects weather also. He also said that the bio-chem warfare has been developing ever since the end of WWII, and that high altitude systems for spraying were being developed. I could double check with him on this, since I have not spoken with him in some time. Donn was a Pentagon insider in weapons systems sales and R&D and was privy to many to secret operations.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
I have heard nothing more than cocktail rumors to that effect from non-beekeepers. "My brother met a guy today who said he knew a fellow whose wife said her hairdresser heard a customer's husband thought he read someplace..." It is near impossible to segregate or isolate bees from hazards such as the Asian tracheal mite... we tried it by moving three hives to a far county in the mountains and lost three hives to Asian tracheal mites.
who's that girl? ;)
Being a mainstream forum owner you would never believe it. She was the sweetest, smartest most trustworthy girl I have ever met. I should have suffered RimJob, Dane and howlin and stayed on FR just for her (-;
IMO this is just self hype. Beekeepers who do none of this "non-organic" lost as many hives as anyone else according to the Charlotte meetings and canvass of NC, SC, Ga, VA and Tenn beekeepers assns.
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/hos.html http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/chemtrail_illuminati.html http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/smoking_gun.html http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/dw_contamfs/barium.html The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
Hey, trouble-maker:
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
Hey wud, thanks for the links.
http://www.lightwatcher.com/chemtrails/US_Chemtrail_code.html
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
You guys ever see anything like this when you were kids? http://www.holmestead.ca/chemtrails/r+z.html
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
My Dad was a fighter pilot and then an airline pilot. I know what the difference between a chemtrail and a contrail is. Chemtrails are aerosol spraying, contrails are exhaust. I'm looking now for the documented contracts the US military has with ALL the airlines. "They" are planning to wipe out 50 - 80% of the earth's population. That's why I'm not out enjoying the "sunshine"!!!!!!!!!!
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
I have seen that...or similar or even more complex.
I know what the difference between a chemtrail and a contrail is. Chemtrails are aerosol spraying, contrails are exhaust. I'm looking now for the documented contracts the US military has with ALL the airlines. "They" are planning to wipe out 50 - 80% of the earth's population. That's why I'm not out enjoying the "sunshine"!!!!!!!!!! LOL Each non sequitur was very good ! Congrats ! Cheers. JC Harris
Sorry, what's a non sequitur?
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
Ron Paul voted AGAINST chemtrails.
The important thing is never to stop questioning. ~ Albert Einstein
Thoughts that are not exactly connected with the preceeding thoughts.
Swimming around in my bourbon highball..... Just a follow up. Cheers.
Now PD !! That was controlling !! No more seegars until you have changed your jacket !!
Hey, it's all good, brother!!;-) I speak in non-sequitur quite often. It's a good thing, as Martha says!!
Swimming around in my bourbon highball..... I remember seeing contrails as a kid (early 70's), and I don't think they had the longevity then as I've seen as an adult. But assuming my memory is correct and that it had nothing to do with the local weather where I lived as a kid, that's still possibly explained with engine advances which there have certainly been. B-17s left contrails during WWII so contrails themselves are nothing new.
Interesting, how that term can either mean fallacy, or in a foolish way, or just simply separate.
Swimming around in my bourbon highball..... hahahaha..that made me laugh.
hahahahaha..that too. :P
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestReports from the Organic Consumers Association state that bee losses are affecting commercial, and not organic, beekeepers. Commercial beekeepers breed bees to be larger than they would grow in their natural habitats and larger bees create larger holes in beehives. Some theorize that, with these larger holes, mites may more readily enter and infest the hive, which the bees will then abandon. In Minnesota, researchers at the U of M Extension Service Bee Lab think that the massive bee disappearance may be caused by many factors coming to a head for these sensitive creatures. Overuse of pesticides was called out as a death knell to pollinators in Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" 40 years ago, and we now use twice as much pesticide on our agricultural land. Combine an abused immune system with more aggressive mites and lots of "electrosmog" messing with an internal sense of direction, and you have one sick honeybee!
#136. To: Neil McIver (#132)
#137. To: Zipporah (#133)
#138. To: IndieTX (#134)
(Edited)
#139. To: IndieTX, Neil McIver (#135)
(Edited)
Reports from the Organic Consumers Association state that bee losses are affecting commercial, and not organic, beekeepers. Commercial beekeepers breed bees to be larger than they would grow in their natural habitats and larger bees create larger holes in beehives. Some theorize that, with these larger holes, mites may more readily enter and infest the hive, which the bees will then abandon. In Minnesota, researchers at the U of M Extension Service Bee Lab think that the massive bee disappearance may be caused by many factors coming to a head for these sensitive creatures. Overuse of pesticides was called out as a death knell to pollinators in Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" 40 years ago, and we now use twice as much pesticide on our agricultural land. Combine an abused immune system with more aggressive mites and lots of "electrosmog" messing with an internal sense of direction, and you have one sick honeybee!
The haemolymph of honey-bees affected by a May disease-like disorder in southwestern France contained numerous spiroplasmas. Further characterization of the organisms and pathogenicity assays showed that the causal agent of the disease was a spiroplasma belonging to group IV. The name Spiroplasma apis was given to the reference strain B31 (ATCC 33834), one of the numerous similar isolates cultured from May-disease-affected bees. Spiroplasma isolates related to S. apis could be grown from the surface of flowers collected within the area visited by bees from the diseased hives. Several other strains belonging to group IV spiroplasmas were also isolated from the surface of flowers growing in southwestern France. In the same area, we also isolated, from pools of apparently healthy honey-bees and from the surface of a tulip tree flower, spiroplasma strains belonging to group I-2. One of these strains was shown to be pathogenic when introduced into adult bees by injection or food ingestion.
Spiroplasmas are motile and show helicoidal morphology, they are frequently isolated from intestine, salivary glands, homocele of insects and the surface of plants and flowers.46,13 Spiroplasma melliferum and Spiroplasma apis are pathogenic for bees, they cross the intestine barrier reaching hemolinfa where they reproduce and induce death of their host.4 Spiroplasma have also been reported in Aedes aegypti mosquito reducing the fertility of the insects, opening the possibility of their use as biological control of mosquito.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#140. To: IndieTX (#135)
Organic bees not affected according to some
#141. To: BTP Holdings (#140)
I've still not been able to confirm this. But, it seems that the rise in cell phone and other communications may have someting to do with it. Electromagnetic radiation has always had a bad effect on bees and it causes them to lose their navigation abilities. There's very few places now without cell towers and microwave transmission with the government plan to track everything with RFID chips coming closer.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#142. To: FormerLurker (#141)
(Edited)
#143. To: JCHarris (#136)
First define an "organic hive".
#144. To: BTP Holdings (#140)
But, it seems that the rise in cell phone and other communications may have someting to do with it.
#145. To: Neil McIver (#132)
In case no one's mentioned it on this thread, there's a claim here that organic hives are not having any die off/CCD problems:
#146. To: Neil McIver (#143)
#147. To: Fred Mertz (#145)
#148. To: Neil McIver (#144)
I tend to doubt it since this CCD has started rather suddenly and cell towers have been going up steadily for some time.
The latest research on the mass disappearance of bees (Colony Collapse Disorder, or CCD) in the United States and Europe indicates that cell phones could be involved. Radiation from phones along with other hi-tech gadgetry may be interfering with the bees' navigation systems. Various theories have been tested, but this one is hitting pay dirt. German research has long shown that bee behavior changse near power lines. Now a study at the University of Landau has shown that bees refuse to return to their hives when cell phones are placed nearby. It's still just a theory, but if massive food shortages strike due to lack of pollination, we may find that talk is not so cheap. By assessing one cent per pound on domestic and imported honey the National Honey Board is making $100,000 available to help solve this mystery.
#149. To: IndieTX (#130)
#150. To: JCHarris (#146)
I know of no such "study" and I just got back from a beekeepers science review and research session in Charlotte...
#151. To: Neil McIver (#149)
(Edited)
And the picture even shows other clouds in the area. One logic question: If clouds can start and stop in an otherwise blue patch of sky, why couldn't a contrail?
#152. To: Neil McIver (#150)
#153. To: JCHarris (#137)
#154. To: christine (#153)
#155. To: BTP Holdings (#140)
Reports from the Organic Consumers Association state that bee losses are affecting commercial, and not organic, beekeepers. Commercial beekeepers breed bees to be larger than they would grow in their natural habitats and larger bees create larger holes in beehives.
#156. To: Neil McIver, christine, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, BTP Holdings, Indie_TX, HOUNDDAWG, ALL (#149)
Then there's the question of what there is to gain from such chemical dumping.
#157. To: FormerLurker (#156)
#158. To: wudidiz (#157)
Hey, trouble-maker:
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#159. To: All (#157)
#160. To: Neil McIver, JCHarris (#149)
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#161. To: FormerLurker (#160)
#162. To: FormerLurker, Neil McIver, ALL (#160)
#163. To: FormerLurker (#160)
#164. To: wudidiz (#162)
My Dad was a fighter pilot and then an airline pilot.
#165. To: JCHarris (#164)
non sequitur
#166. To: All (#165)
#167. To: wudidiz (#165)
#168. To: wudidiz (#165)
#169. To: PercyDovetonsils (#167)
#170. To: JCHarris (#169)
#171. To: FormerLurker (#160)
#172. To: All (#170)
#173. To: wudidiz (#162)
That's why I'm not out enjoying the "sunshine"!!!!!!!!!!
#174. To: wudidiz (#166)
Ron Paul voted AGAINST chemtrails.
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