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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Basis of income Tax
Source: Family Guardian
URL Source: http://famguardian.org/
Published: Jun 14, 2007
Author: Richard
Post Date: 2007-06-14 20:31:26 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 679
Comments: 44

Social Security Enabling Act of 1935

Some time ago, I posted a breakdown that covered why people pay the income tax. To say that some in 4um were upset with my information, well, that would be an understatement. But, and howsoever that maybe, no one rebuted the information. Please permit me to explain why there was no rebuttal;

I was correct. The following is the basic part of the info;

The Social Security Act of 1935

(See Section 8; Income Tax)

http://www.nationalcenter.org/SocialSecurityAct.html

(Please note that the above site is an official government site.)

TITLE VIII- TAXES WITH RESPECT TO EMPLOYMENT

INCOME TAX ON EMPLOYEES

SECTION 801. In addition to other taxes, there shall be levied, collected, and paid upon the income of every individual a tax equal to the following percentages of the wages (as defined in section 811) ...

DEDUCTION OF TAX FROM WAGES

SEC. 802. (a) The tax imposed by section 801 shall be collected by the employer of the taxpayer by deducting the amount of the tax from the wages as and when paid. Every employer required so to deduct the tax is hereby made liable for the payment of such tax, and is hereby indemnified against the claims and demands of any person for the amount of any such payment made by such employer.

Now, I admit to not being the best researcher in the world, but the way that I read this, the Social Security tax is an Income tax..... and I would submit that if you are subject to ANY Income tax, then you are subject to ALL income taxes.

What does this mean? If you have a social security number, you owe the income tax, and you can protest all that you want and it will not help you in the least. That means that when you argue about the there being no law authorizing the income tax, you are correct, and when the judge says not to bring that argument into this court, he is also correct, because he is setting in a hearing on a contractual matter, and you are out-of-order.

I have, meanwhile, been searching for other confirmation about what I know to be true. Just for you'all. I have found it!

I joined Family Guardian, and posed the question to them, asking if it was correct. This was their response;

Richard,

Nice work. You're absolutely correct. Exactly the same conclusions are reached in the Resignation of Compelled Social Security Trustee Document posted on this website:

http://famguardian.org/TaxFreedom/Forms/Em...stIndenture.pdf

See section 3 in the above document.

Admin

To view the above document, which is one of the most detailed documents that I have ever read! You need to register with Family Guardian; you can do that here: http://famguardian.org/

I have not spent much time, as yet, on this site, but it does look as detailed and full of information as anything that I have found.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

#1. To: Pinguinite, christine, BTP Holdings, robin, lodwick, all (#0)

PING!

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-14   20:34:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

(Please note that the above site is an official government site.)

I just got the ping, thank you, and have not read any of the links, but fedgov's websites end with the dot gov URL - don't they?

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-06-15   10:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Looks most interesting - thanks.

We don't charge ANYTHING for any of the materials appearing on this website, nor do we receive any compensation for anything appearing on this website. This website advocates a limited and much smaller federal government that:

* Consumes far less of our personal income to operate * Operates responsibly and efficiently * Respects our Constitutional rights * Respects our privacy and sovereignty * Writes simple and clear laws that anyone can read and understand without the aid of lawyers or the court system * Passes only laws and regulations that apply equally to both itself and the citizenry (no hypocrisy) * Is scrupulously honest and moral in administering justice to its citizens

The only purpose this website is therefore to reveal the truth, promote personal freedom and liberty, encourage the greatest public good, and honor and obey all of what the Bible and the Constitution say about how our government should function. It is done in the spirit of Jesus' own words in the Bible, as follows:

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me." [John 5:30, Bible, NKJV]

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-06-15   10:30:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

We don't charge ANYTHING for any of the materials appearing on this website,

I am glad that you checked that site out. I just posted on it again, beginning a thread asking for verifications about the Constitution not applying to Washington, DC. When I get something back, I will be posting that as well.

The more I check into what is going on in that site, the better I like it. And man, is it big!

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   0:55:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was correct.

I am not doing this to beat a dead horse. There is a very simple moral object here. And, it applies to everyone, not just me.

Since I am correct in what I originally said, that the Social Security contract is a contract to pay Income Tax (the Social Security tax IS an income tax), then what this means is that the entire, THE ENTIRE tax protest movement is based on hot air.

I find it hard to believe that anyone can assume that this is an accident. Esp. since everything that I have pointed out comes from the public record. And this means that much of what has happened to people over the last 20-30 years was not only unneccesary, but it was probably planned as well.

Yet it continues today. And my point is that you -- ALL OF YOU (as well as myself) -- have a moral obligation to tell everyone that you happen to speak to, esp. about taxes, exactly what the basis is of the income tax that they VOLUNTEERED and CONTRACTED to pay.

I do not care if you tell them where you got the info; I do not need nor seek any credit. After all, I am not the only one who has figured this out! What I want to see is for people to stop getting injured with non-sense in the courts. Friends of yours, I wager, have been or will be injured using the lies of people like Irwin Shiff.

Let me see. Irwin Shiff... Oh, right, a Jew. Leading people astray for profit. Who would have thought it.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   1:17:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

PING!!

please read number 5. Thank you.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   1:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Irwin Shiff...

What is his schtick?

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-16   1:33:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

According to this piece he's not receiving the Chosen's Touch...

Feds Torture “Tax Protester” Irwin Schiff

For those unfamiliar with Schiff, he is 78 years old and serving 151 months in prison and was ordered to pay over $4.2 million in restitution to the Internal Revenue Service for the crime of not paying “income taxes,” otherwise known as slave ransom, or that’s what your humble blogger calls it, anyway. He currently languishes, apparently minus a toe, as Inmate #08537-014 at the Federal Correction Institution at Fort Dix, New Jersey, located on the Fort Dix/McGuire Air Force Base military installation. Fort Dix was in the news recently when a pizza delivery guy threatened to attack the base and kill as many soldiers as possible.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2007-06-16   1:39:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

According to this piece...

Have you visited him? If not, then any news about his whereabouts and condition can be served up, can it not? And, with it, requests for donations. Correct? Eoghan, you have seen stuff like this done before.... and I AM NOT saying that I know this for a fact.

BUT, what I am saying is that the non-sense that Schiff promotes is just that, non-sense. Figure the rest of it out for yourself.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   1:44:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Since I am correct in what I originally said, that the Social Security contract is a contract to pay Income Tax

The Supreme Court has already decided that the Social Security tax is "just another tax" based on the 16th Amendment. They ruled that there is no "right" to benefits and that Congress can do as it pleases with the 'benefits' from the Social Security program.

FDR put it in this way so that nobody could remove it -- and there are quotes from him stating as such.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2007-06-16   1:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Who is shiff?

why should I care?

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-16   1:49:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't know a whole lot about Schiff, but a Jew doing hard time is a first for me...Obviously, the El Al red-eye flights are always open to a member of the Crew. He didn't take one as far as I know. He's not hiding out in Israel, and that's a fact.

“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"

Eoghan  posted on  2007-06-16   1:51:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Judge can't fix government's $100 million boo-boo POSTED: 2:30 p.m. EDT, June 15, 2007 Story Highlights • Judge said he can't fix $100 million mistake • U.S. Justice Department said citing wrong law in plea deal was a typo • Judge said he would have ordered repayment in probation if government asked • Justice Department now plan to sue tax evader to recover the money

WASHINGTON (AP) -- It was a $100 million mistake, and a federal judge said Friday he does not have the power to fix it.

The U.S. Justice Department erred last year and cited the wrong law in a binding plea agreement with telecommunication entrepreneur Walter Anderson, the largest known tax evader in U.S. history. That mistake made it impossible for the government to recover between $100 million and $175 million, U.S. District Judge Paul L. Friedman said in March.

Prosecutors urged him to reconsider, but Friedman reluctantly said Friday that his hands were tied.

"The court is not free to read something into a contract that is not there or to interpret uncertain language in the government's favor," Friedman said.

Although prosecutors described the error as "a typo" -- typographical error -- and not "something that the court should be getting wrapped up about," Friedman said he could do nothing else.

He said he would have worked around the problem by ordering Anderson to repay the money as part of his probation. But prosecutors omitted any discussion of probation, a common element of plea deals, from Anderson's paperwork.

Friedman sentenced Anderson in March to nine years in prison and ordered him to repay $23 million to the District of Columbia but ordered no restitution to the federal government.

Prosecutors have promised that the Internal Revenue Service, the government's tax collectors, would sue Anderson in civil court to try to recover the money. That would require a new round of litigation in a court that does not wield the threat of more jail time. Prosecutors have said that Anderson has money stashed away in accounts around the world, a claim Anderson denied in court.

Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-16   1:54:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Who is shiff?

why should I care?

You are exactly right. But just for general info, he was/is an un-tax leader of the income tax protest. Basically, he says that there has never been a law that said that the income tax had to be paid. In that, he is correct, but it is irrelavant, because the income tax is actually contracted for through Social Security. But very, very few know that.

Therefore, there have been thousands of people who used Shiff's material and who lost everything that they owned, and, spent significant time in prison for it. This is after paying him thousands of dollars to be 'untaxed.'

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   2:09:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

THE ENTIRE tax protest movement is based on hot air.

I agree Richard, but I think the process of coming to the conclusion that the Income Tax is a contractual obligation begins when one discovers that there's no law requiring payment and that it also violates Constitutional requirements, so enforcement must be attached by some other means ...

The documentary of Russo and the rantings of the Bob Schultz Tax Movement / We The People group do awaken people to the fraud without actually providing the real fraud that it's either a contract or implied trust arrangement that traps people into the system.

Ya gotta start somewhere ...

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   6:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Let me see. Irwin Shiff... Oh, right, a Jew. Leading people astray for profit. Who would have thought it.

One can never be certain but I don't think Schiff intentionally mislead anyone. At 78, I don't think he'd be in prison either if he were a govt. agent.

The courts contribute to the continuing fraud by not entering concise and clear opinions. People are allowed to prevail in court sometimes simply to muddy the waters and most often when this happens the court's ruling in their favor has nothing to do with their argument. Joe Bannister's case is a perfect example. The arguments provided in his briefs are moot, the jury simply decided against the IRS because they caught the IRS lying. [I'm not convinced of the integrity of We The People, but I am certain that their arguments are in error].

Ed and Elaine Brown are also in error, even though its understandable. People cannot be even a little bit in the (Babylonian) system and protest the requirements of that system.

Many people concluding that something was wrong with the tax system have been brutalized by the government because courts have continually hidden the truth related to the issue of taxation.

The Bible at Luke 22:25 makes mention of the way followers of Christ are to view their relationship with government:

And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles have lordship over them; and they that have authority over them are called Benefactors. Be it not so with you:

Most Americans wouldn't admit they are socialists if you put a gun to their heads ... but might have to if you asked them if they had a SS Card in their wallet.

And, it's not just Social Security that subjects one to Income Tax liability. Any contract with legal fictions will suffice. One must completely extricate from their system or be subject to it. Most people create artificial entities to take their place when necessary. The artificial entity then becomes subject to the contract whether its for utilities, vehicles or taxes.

I'm not in the habit of telling anyone else what they should or shouldn't do because I'm not going to suffer the consequences should there be any. My hope has been that the SS system would implode or collapse and then I would recommend not getting involved in its replacement.

The one thing I would emphasize as imperative whenever someone decides to "opt out" ... and that is to formally (be able to prove it-keep records and be sure to have all documentation Notarized-Use Return Receipt Mail) rescind their signature on any and all documents that connected them with any legal fiction whatsoever. In addition I recorded a Declaration by affidavit of Copyright with the County Clerk and Secretary of State terminating the all capital letter name, and I formally expatriated from the federal U.S. Government by triple witnessed and notarized notice to both houses of Congress the President, and others (I can't recall offhand), and published in a competent newspaper the notice previously sent to the aforementioned parties.

Some people do a UCC 1 ... I don't recognize the authority of the UCC as I'm not involved in commerce.

The important thing for people to remember is that you may be called into account for your actions and you need to fully understand your position and the consequences. My committment stems from Biblical admonitions against the Mark of the Beast. Violating this warning against taking the Mark has eternal consequences that I'm unwilling to chance. Whether the SSN is the Mark is debatable ... if it's not the Mark it's the precursor of it ... I just ain't doing it, and jail doesn't worry me. I certainly understand people that are hesitant because they have children to raise.

Everyone has to make their own decision and sometimes things that were once taken for granted become challenges, but I have been able to overcome them for 15-20 years now.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   7:14:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the income tax is actually contracted for through Social Security

Subjection to the income tax attaches to any transaction conducted by legal fictions wherein income is produced; a SSN or TIN is normally required to participate, but not always and this is where most problems begin.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   7:20:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Therefore, there have been thousands of people who used Shiff's material and who lost everything that they owned, and, spent significant time in prison for it. This is after paying him thousands of dollars to be 'untaxed.'

Schiff sounds like a common scam king.

JCHarris  posted on  2007-06-16   9:44:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And my point is that you -- ALL OF YOU (as well as myself) -- have a moral obligation to tell everyone that you happen to speak to, esp. about taxes, exactly what the basis is of the income tax that they VOLUNTEERED and CONTRACTED to pay.

I have a better idea on how to kill the beast. To anyone who has paid into the SS system, sue to collect after having injured yourself. My approach would provide income for those who qualify and, at the same time, overload the system causing its eventual death. If native born Americans won’t file to collect, illegal Mexicans surly will.

If the Bible were on a best-seller list, would it be classified as fiction or nonfiction?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-06-16   9:47:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Did you know that LAPD and railroad workers don't pay into social security?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-16   9:49:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You are exactly right. But just for general info, he was/is an un-tax leader of the income tax protest. Basically, he says that there has never been a law that said that the income tax had to be paid. In that, he is correct, but it is irrelavant, because the income tax is actually contracted for through Social Security. But very, very few know that.

Therefore, there have been thousands of people who used Shiff's material and who lost everything that they owned, and, spent significant time in prison for it. This is after paying him thousands of dollars to be 'untaxed.'

The income tax is contracted through SS?

But, the income tax predates SS by over 20 years, and the present income tax (where your kids' lemonade stand is taxable according to the IRS, presumably because they breathe American air) didn't exist until 1942 with the passage of THE VICTORY TAX ACT.

And, an SS card is not a requirement for assessment according to the IRS.

I was 12 yrs old when I got an SS card. The term "contract" has a clearly defined meaning, and govt doesn't own the language. In order for a contract to be valid I must derive some clearly delineated benefit.

If the govt doesn't reveal the terms of the "contract" then fraud vitiates all contracts.

And, because the govt has no obligation to pay any benefits to persons who paid into SS, and the SS Admin now pays immigrants, surviving spouses and others who never worked or were subject to payroll withholding then, what exactly are the terms of this mysterious contract?

You're right about one thing, though. Taxes are a civil matter. So, when the IRS calls someone for additional info without revealing that they are preparing a criminal case, are you obligated to surrender personal info that could be used in the preparation of criminal case against you?

What do you think the FTP Foundation has been trying to do all these years?

If the govt admits that holding an SS card puts us under IRS jurisdiction then they had the legal obligation to reveal that to me when I was 12 yrs old, even though I wasn't old enough to form a contract with the govt.

If all we have to do is burn our SS cards (employees and employers alike) to be without the jurisdiction of the IRS, do you suppose that's why you can speak for the govt and why they refuse to speak for themselves?

BTW, I have a copy of the secret HANDBOOK FOR SPECIAL AGENTS.

So, go on and tell us what you think you know about the jurisdiction of the IRS.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-16   10:13:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Since I am correct in what I originally said, that the Social Security contract is a contract to pay Income Tax (the Social Security tax IS an income tax), then what this means is that the entire, THE ENTIRE tax protest movement is based on hot air.

Over 20 years ago Irwin Schiff pointed out that social security is an income tax based on gross wages, and the other income tax is "income less deductions."

Now, just why you think this invalidates the entire tax education movement is unclear. But if you believe that the constitution is the supreme law of the land then please explain what "equal protection under the law" means when applied to the income tax.

For instance, railroad workers don't pay the SS tax nor do LAPD officers.

"They have their own pensions" you say?

AH! As Irwin Schiff pointed out decades ago, "social security is not a pension, it's a tax!"

How then can railroad workers and LAPD employees be lawfully assessed for one tax (income {sic}) less deductions) and not the other? (social security)

Unlike railroad and LAPD pension plans which promise to pay regardless of a retiree's post-retirement wages and/or income, social security promises and is legally obligated to may nothing!

If I have the sworn depositions from 12 respected oncologists stating that I am an unmarried terminal cancer patient with no dependents and will not live another year, but I am also ineligible for SS disability benefits because of my young age and my present ability to work, then SS will pay me nothing, now or later. But I still cannot opt out of SS payroll withholding.

It's not a pension, it's a tax. And,when the govt exempted federal employees (originally their civil service pensions made them exempt, but new federal employees for some years now are required to pay the SS tax) and railroad workers and LAPD, they failed to guarantee equal protection to all. If I'm as wealthy as Bill Gates I'm still required to pay the SS tax, and even if terminal and certain to expire before eligibility I'm still required to pay SS tax.

I can hardly wait to read your tortuous explanation of how having fat cat pensions thanks to savvy union negotiators relieves some segments of the workforce from a tax (in direct violation of the equal protection clause) and just where the govt derived this power to treat Americans differently based upon a yet-to-be-explained criteria.

Also, Why is it that rich individuals/corporate officers may opt out of auto insurance by setting up liability escrow accounts equal to or many times greater than the minimum liability required by law for the rest of us?

If a wealthy person is presumed to be responsible enough to live without buying auto or health insurance (when an insurers' solvency may be in question until the company declares bankruptcy, collecting premums until the bankruptcy is announced with no intention of providing coverage-all legal, mind you) why would the federal govt presume that these same individuals cannot responsibly plan for their own retirements?

There isn't any method including setting aside billions of dollars for retirement that will allow a rich person working in a non exempt profession and subject to payroll withholding to escape SS "contributions"

("Hey, why are you in jail?"

Failing to meet my moral obligation and make voluntary contributions! How about you?"

"Oh, I failed to volunteer to make the AIDS WALK in New York City!"

"You'e kidding, right?"

" Of course! I'm just underscoring how ridiculous you sound!"

So, please don't insult my intelligence by saying that a multi billion dollar escrow account is inadequate because the govt may still end up caring for a once wealthy individual and therefore the nannies are correct to force most us to pay "voluntary contributions" (an Orwellian phrase if there ever was one) even if the individual was terminal or willing to set aside a billion dollars for her or his golden years, or even if a terminally ill individual was willing to set up the account when it's an absolute certainty that she/he would never reach retirement age or require financial assistance if disabled.

"Hey I have a billion bux, can I opt out of SS?

"Well that depends, do you work for the railroad or LAPD?"

Of course if the entire banking system collapses then a billion dollar account could be wiped out, but so will the govt's ability to pay benefits to retirees, recent immigrants, methadone addicts, etc.

"The original 1935 SS statute paid retirement benefits only to the primary worker. Many types of people were excluded, mainly farm workers, the self-employed, and anyone employed by an employer of fewer than ten people. These limitations, intended to exclude those from whom it would be difficult to monitor compliance, covered approximately half of the civilian labor force in the United States.

In 1939, the 1937 Federal Insurance Contributions Act (FICA) tax was amended in three important ways:

* The widowed, nonworking spouse of a someone entitled to an old-age benefit also became entitled to an old-age benefit. * Survivors (widows and orphans) became eligible for a benefit. (A contract to pay income tax, you say? HAH!_HD)

* Retirees who had never paid any FICA taxes became eligible for old-age benefits. This feature was very popular among the millions of elderly Americans hard hit by the Great Depression, and fatefully decoupled benefits eligibility from work history. (i.e. no contract to pay income tax!-HD)

During the Carter administration, immigrants who had never paid into the system became eligible for SSI (Supplemental Security Income) benefits when they reached age 65. SSI is not a Social Security benefit, but welfare, because the poor elderly are entitled to SSI regardless of work history. Likewise, SSI is not an entitlement, because there is no right to SSI payments."(wikipedia)

So, just how does one such as yourself reconcile the above quotes with your statement that "Since I am correct in what I originally said, that the Social Security contract is a contract to pay Income Tax" and "(the Social Security tax IS an income tax)" when immigrants, surviving spouses and congenitally handicapped from birth who may have never worked, and have never agreed to any contract or paid a dime into the system may receive benefits?

No, you're just trying to polish up the old socialism turd using meaningless phrases (that are popular and abundant in AARP propaganda, which is likely your source for this gibberish) and by deliberately misusing phrases with otherwise clearly defined legal definitions, such as "VOLUNTEERED and CONTRACTED to pay" Also under a lawful and enforceable civil contract there must be a stated benefit, and because SS is not an entitlement there is none and the term "contract" is as meaningless as "social security trust fund".

Irwin Schiff pointed out that to say someone "volunteers under threat of seizure and/or garnishment" and that someone "contracts to pay" (I was 12 years old when I received my SS card-could I lawfully form a lifelong contract with the govt without understanding any of the ramifications of the "contract"?) is nothing more than the intentional obfuscation of legal definitions by govt hacks and state worshipers to hide the truth and promote moral confusion, a smokescreen to cover the unconstitutional nature of SS and the other god-cursed income tax.

Roosevelt had no good answers for the very valid challenges to the NRA, the Agricultural Adjustment Act and most of the NEW DEAL, so his response was a blatant attempt to pack the SCOTUS, who then decided to ignore valid lower courts findings and to "stress the need" for social security and other Marxist schemes.

Also, the govt admitted that the actuaries on which benefits were originally calculated were wrong and that error meant the system that was sold as a "solvent trust fund" was never anything ,ore than a swindle, paying out benefits from current payroll withholding taxes.

The first recipient of a SS bennie check, Ida M. Fuller of Vermont paid about $100 into SS and collected more than $10,000 before her death.

"The govt was supposed to invest it!" we hear...

"Well, the govt didn't!" is the honest reply.

And that reason coupled with the fact that the baby is long over means that my generation and younger have no hope of collecting even modest benefits that they do not themselves pay for many times over in payroll holding. (Can you say Ponzi scheme? How about a chain letter that's run out of chain?)

And if I and others are paying our own welfare retirement benefits plus the cost of the non productive bureaucrats/administrators (like you I suspect) who mails my own money back to me (after they deduct for their own generous salaries and health care of course) then wouldn't it simply make more sense for me to arrange for my own retirement and for you and welfare chiselers, immigrants and others to get honest jobs and support yourselves?

If we have some moral obligation to support each other, then why doesn't LAPD pay it, and why would the IRS seize my property so they can mail benefit checks to millionaires?

How does it benefit America to tax Citizen A for the benefit of Citizen B, particularly if A works at McDonalds and will never own a home while B is a millionaire like Ronald Reagan who insisted on receiving his SS check?

And, how does it benefit America if A is barred from making over a certain amount of chump change to remain eligible for benefits when Citizen B may collect millions in stock dividends each year and never become ineligible?

Why would the working poor be penalized for productivity while wealthy persons are not and have never been presented with similar obstacles to collecting SS bennies?

(Let's assume that B's dividends are from tax free municipal bonds and are not taxed, shall we?)

No, the govt and its lickspittles who dare use phrases like "moral obligation" are dishonest or self deluding, and even their spouses are socialist queens or drones...

"We pay taxes too", govt employees cry! No, you don't. You pay back other people's tax dollars because the 100 million tons of paperwork the IRS and H&R Blockheads create annually that no one ever reads has an actual value of less than zero! If you create no wealth, i.e. bread, milk or steel then payroll withholding is merely a scheme to salve your otherwise guilty consciences, and to hide that fact that you're mostly parasites who would starve if productive people weren't "forced to volunteer" and to adopt the lop sided "morality" of people who have no moral obligation to create anything beneficial to us! (CLUE: Heartaches and paperwork don't benefit us producers)

There can never be a moral basis for taxing a poor or lower middle class single parent with children at gunpoint in order to keep the irresponsible promises of long dead politicians to favored special interests.

And if any private insurance company said that they erred on their actuaries and cannot meet its obligations to people who were forced to buy their product under threat of seizure, garnishment or visits from trigger happy govt gun goons, then those insurance company executives would go to jail.

How does it benefit us to have a govt that has all of the authority but none of the responsibility? Is there a better definition of tyranny?

The former Soviet Union employed similar Orwellian rhetoric when forcing their subjects into collectivist schemes, but the reality was not much different than here-95% stood in line for stale bread and ill fitting shoes while 5% ate Volga river sturgeon caviar and rode in limosines while piously preaching of the Marxist "moral obligation to support each other".

This is why the most eloquent and passionate proponents of socialism are often wealthy folks, like Hillary Rodham, Armand Hammer, Jay Rockefeller, the trustees of the Ford Foundation (with endowments and personal fortunes that are immune to taxation).

The simple truth is only the working poor and middle class pay the two federal income taxes, and the poor and rich alike derive the greatest proportion of the benefits.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-16   10:14:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The documentary of Russo and the rantings of the Bob Schultz Tax Movement / We The People group do awaken people to the fraud without actually providing the real fraud that it's either a contract or implied trust arrangement that traps people into the system.

Ya gotta start somewhere ...

The problem with this is when thousands of people, and there have been thousands, are destroyed with false information.

I also find it hard to believe that I can find this info, and the ones leading the tax protest movement can not; the more I go through this, the more I think it is nothing but a big, dangerous, scam.

As to this; Ya gotta start somewhere ... Where you start is at the beginning, and you keep going back until you find the beginning. I have always thought that it was complete malarky to go around preaching that EVERY federal judge was knowingly violating the Constitution..... esp. when the judges, right in court, plainly state that the arguments brought before them have no merit.

But people keep going back and making the same exect arguments, with a few different words thrown in, time after time and year after year. Sounds insane to me.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:10:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Schiff sounds like a common scam king.

To me, he is. Nothing but, and I thought that from the first time I met him and listened to him in Las Vegas.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:11:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

[I'm not convinced of the integrity of We The People, but I am certain that their arguments are in error].

Ed and Elaine Brown are also in error, even though its understandable. People cannot be even a little bit in the (Babylonian) system and protest the requirements of that system.

Many people concluding that something was wrong with the tax system have been brutalized by the government because courts have continually hidden the truth related to the issue of taxation.

Very intelligent and consise points. I completely agree about We the People.

As to Ed and Elaine Brown, they are going to prison and there is nothing that can be done about that. Why? Because they relied on false information. No, that is not correct, THEY PAID SOMEONE FOR FALSE INFORMATION, and to me, that is a crime against the Browns committed by someone that hides behind patriotism.

I do not think that the courts have hidden anything. They are not responsible for legal research or for people continually returning to the courts with the same tired arguments for more than 30 years. After the courts said, the very first time, that argument does not work in this court, hey, WISE UP!

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

RBN has a couple of lawyers doing just that. Tom Cryor(sp) and Larry Becraft host programs and both poo poo the Social Security Number as being the keystone. Cryor alleges he's in court fighting the tax himself, and if what he says is true he'll lose.

Funny how no one has asked him why people without SSN's can't be taxed ... because there is nowhere to account for the funds. Again, there are lots of easy ways to get "IN" to the system.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   13:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Did you know that LAPD and railroad workers don't pay into social security?

Yes, and there are others as well, BUT, they, just as with government workers, pay into a separate account. I have no knowledge of it, but I would suspect that those accounts, as well as the government retirement fund, tie back into the Social Security scam.

There is certainly enough evidence that has come out over the last year about commitments that have been made for medical benefits by cities and counties all across America and how they are not legally obligated to pay them, regardless of the contractual nature of the commitment, if it is not possible to do so. In fact, some of that has been posted in 4um.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But, the income tax predates SS by over 20 years,

No, it does not. My father and my uncles all worked through the thirties and paid no taxes. There were people who paid the tax, but they were either employees of the government, had contracts with the government, or, worked in an industry that was contracted into the tax.

This has been covered elsewhere. Try the book, The Law That Never Was.

didn't exist until 1942 with the passage of THE VICTORY TAX ACT. And your point would be? That is when most people started paying the tax, under the assumption it was to help the war effort, only, SURPRISE! SURPRISE! the tax never went away. It is called smoke and mirrors.

So, go on and tell us what you think you know about the jurisdiction of the IRS. If you believe, for even a moment, that the jurisdiction of the IRS solely revolves around the SS contract, then you are not doing your homework. It is their system, and when you use their system, they have jurisdiction.

My point has been; the tax protest movement is a scam, and we have a moral obligation to tell people that before they are injured using false information.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What prevents the courts from issuing an opinion that simply states that people become subject to the Income Tax through commercial contracts, and government benefits or the promise of them ? Seems to me that in a free society that promises a transparent governance justice isn't a game of hide and seek, trick maneuvering and court politics.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   13:30:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Over 20 years ago Irwin Schiff pointed out that social security is an income tax based on gross wages, and the other income tax is "income less deductions."

Then you admit that his arguments otherwise are goundless. If you have a contract to pay an income tax, then all other arguments are mute. And, this is what the courts have been telling us for years.

if you believe that the constitution is the supreme law of the land Never said that. In fact, I have posted info, before, to show that this is a false belief. I am currently working with the same group I mention above, Family Guardians, to proof up what I posted before and then I will post that to the 4um as well. Stay tuned.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

RBN has a couple of lawyers doing just that. Tom Cryor(sp) and Larry Becraft host programs and both poo poo the Social Security Number as being the keystone.

Funny how that works, is it not? I do not know of Cryor, but my opinion of Becraft is not printable.

Funny how no one has asked him why people without SSN's can't be taxed ... That's easy; no one is allowed to ask such questions. That is why they have a controler before you are allowed to speak to them (on the air).

Of course, there is much more to this than just the SS number, but it is interesting that the GATT agreements make it a requirement that the citizens of all member nations have SS numbers. Anyone care to join the world wide tax system?

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:40:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What prevents the courts from issuing an opinion that simply states that people become subject to the Income Tax through commercial contracts, and government benefits or the promise of them ? Seems to me that in a free society that promises a transparent governance justice isn't a game of hide and seek, trick maneuvering and court politics.

Think about this; why would they do that?

The more people who go through their courts, the more power and prestige they have. Plus, it is not their responsibility to make such rulings; it is our responsibility. Plus, if they do that, then they open up another can of worms, about the Constitution. I will be posting about that next, as soon as I clear up some stuff with Family Guardians. Got to be sure that I am correct.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   13:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Elaine Brown,

Elaine is a licensed dentist which allows her to earn "taxable income".

The first logical supposition is that there is a tax law otherwise law enforcement wouldn't be utilized to collect it.

Secondly, once one gets interested in the subject the Constitution is where they most logically look to determine the origins of it. It appears from these sources that it's illegal and many a fine person acting upon this information has been tried, fined and incarcerated. I think the courts have an obligation to inform the people, especially when the people have requested an answer from the IRS regarding their liability for the tax and the IRS refuses to answer them.

We've all heard the phrase "you gotta live die and pay taxes" since we were kids. I think this is to keep us from asking ... why or which tax do I have to pay.

Our public school system show everyone how to fill out the form without ever mentioning that certain criteria must be met before one becomes liable for the tax.

If they want to run this place like Russia they ought to quit proclaiming how free it is here and simply tell the truth and let us decide if we wish to participate.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   13:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That's easy; no one is allowed to ask such questions. That is why they have a controler before you are allowed to speak to them (on the air).

Not true, RBN doesn't screen calls on any program.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   13:50:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

but it is interesting that the GATT agreements make it a requirement that the citizens of all member nations have SS numbers.

Citizenship is another area that must be investigated and decoded. There can't be any good reason for spending ones finite life studying legal codes without expectation of ever knowing them all in one lifetime.

Anything that is so convoluted and difficult to comprehend is fraud.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   13:55:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

THEY PAID SOMEONE FOR FALSE INFORMATION, and to me, that is a crime against the Browns committed by someone that hides behind patriotism.

If the information is knowingly incorrect and then sold to someone else ... it is a crime. Schiff is doing time but he was warned to quit before he was tried and convicted. He violated an injunction.

Most criminal offenses require that there be an intent to do the crime and knowledge that what one did was a crime.

Usually, it's a good idea to find what are called the Jury Instructions as soon as you're charged in order to know what must be proven to obtain a conviction.

"Sarah, if the people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."

Bush 41 to reporter Sarah McClendon, June 1992

noone222  posted on  2007-06-16   14:02:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Anything that is so convoluted and difficult to comprehend is fraud.

You are absolutely correct. I could not agree more, which is why I will never again sign anything that comes from any agent or agency of the US government. I simply can not be sure what agreements/contracts are behind whatever it is that I may sign.

Not true, RBN doesn't screen calls on any program. I did not know this, and, if it is not screened, then it is the first 'on air' live program that I have ever heard of that is set up like that.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-16   14:21:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

My point has been; the tax protest movement is a scam, and we have a moral obligation to tell people that before they are injured using false information.

But no moral issues revolving around any of the very damning thruth about the entire tax swindle.

And if the victory tax was repealed in 1944 (it was) and you simply say "It never went away" and you are obviously cheerful enough about that not to question the jack boots and burp guns enforcement of a repealed tax, then moral obligations are not really what motivates you, are they?

EDIT: The Victory Tax Act also promised a rebate of all taxes paid at the "cessation of hostilities". But, at a time when patriotism was high and people went to the post office and paid a non existent-post war tax (in 1945) congress saw a new source of revenue that it never had and the chance to spend funds that weren't raised through apportionment and were not earmarked as are taxes that are apportioned and raised in the tax bills, and by 1954 they had written an entire phoney tax code to create the illusion the tax is mandatory. Of course the language was ambiguous enough not to technically mistate the law and the regs were confusing enough to create the illusion that "somewhere in the law theres language that applies to you!" but nowhere are we told how we suddenly caught this disease that is supposedly the result of a tax that by your own admission most didn't pay from 1913 until 1942, or because of a temporary war tax which is easily proven as having been repealed in 1944.

The only people who are still trying to hold back the inevitable tide by creating superstitious fear about the tax are IRS and H&R Block types, and I'm betting that you, your spouse or family member will have to get an honest job when the IRS shuts its doors.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-06-22   21:01:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But no moral issues revolving around any of the very damning thruth about the entire tax swindle.

Never said that. All facts, verified, need to be put in front of as many people as will listen. Anyone who has read the book, The Law that Never Was, and I have, knows very well that the so-called income tax amendment was never ratified.... but when people keep using the same argument year after year in the same courts and keep getting told the same things, well, after awhile, everyone needs to wake-up. I might add, every federal judge knows that the amendment was never ratified either, and they are not stupid men, so, perhaps sooner or later we should begin to understand that something else is going on!

'The U. S. income tax system is built on the idea of 'voluntary compliance.' This means that it is left to the taxpayer to keep the necessary records, file a return on time, pay any required taxes, and meet any other requirements of the tax law. The system is built on trust in the citizens to know their responsibilities and to do what needs to be done. Taxpayers voluntarily follow the steps the tax system lays out. Failure to do so can result in penalties.

"Two aspects of the Federal Income Tax system - voluntary compliance with the law and self-assessment of tax - make it important for you to understand your rights and responsibilities as a taxpayer. 'Voluntary compliance' places on the taxpayer the responsibility for filing an income tax return. You must decide whether the law requires you to file a return. If it does, you must file your return by the date it is due. IRS Publication 21."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

about the entire tax swindle. What tax swindle? Do you use their system? Bank in their banks? Write checks on an account they authorized? Did you accept a social security number from them, and, use it now? So once again, what swindle? Oh, and I do none of those things and have not for many years, even while living and working in Montana.

"It never went away" That is was repealed (haven't seen that, but no surprise) was never published in the media and the collection went on. All that was needed was an excuse for the tax, then, we get into getting people accustomed to it, and the lies about the amendment.

The only people who are still trying to hold back the inevitable tide by creating superstitious fear about the tax are IRS and H&R Block types, and I'm betting that you, your spouse or family member will have to get an honest job when the IRS shuts its doors.

LOL! That is funny! I own my own small business here in Mèxico and my wife is a teacher, in Mèxico. I have never sold anything in any of the various movements that go around the states. I have written a lot of material, but it was always free to whoever wanted anything. And I have no fear, so what is the point? Here, try this to begin to understand, cause this is what I did back in the early 80s: I started by throwing all of my records out!;

Gary Makovski Special IRS Agent "If no information or return is filed, [the] Internal Revenue Service cannot assess you." Testifying under oath in U.S. v. Lloyd

Henry Bellmon Senator (1969) "In a recent conversation with an official at the Internal Revenue Service, I was amazed when he told me that 'If the taxpayers of this country ever discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff the entire system will collapse.'"

Jack Cole Co. v. MacFarland 337 S.W. 2d. 453, 455-456 (Tenn. 1960) "Since the Right to receive income or earnings is a Right belonging to every person, this right cannot be taxed as a privilege." It can, however, be contracted away. (This is a pretty interesting case. You should look it up.)

And, finally;

Judge Cummings U.S. Federal Judge "Only the rare taxpayer would be likely to know that he could refuse to produce his records to IRS agents... Who would believe the ironic truth that the cooperative taxpayer fares much worse than the individual who relies upon his constitutional rights. U.S. v. Dickerson (7th Circuit 1969)

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-22   22:25:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

'The U. S. income tax system is built on the idea of 'voluntary compliance.' This means that it is left to the taxpayer to keep the necessary records, file a return on time, pay any required taxes, and meet any other requirements of the tax law. The system is built on trust in the citizens to know their responsibilities and to do what needs to be done. Taxpayers voluntarily follow the steps the tax system lays out. Failure to do so can result in penalties.

I'd feel better about paying taxes if my government actually represented me, or did the jobs they were supposed to do, as opposed to give money to countries that hate us, allow terrorists to kill our citizens, and of course, the outright treason that takes place daily in the house and the senate.

Dying for old bastards, and their old money, isn't my idea of freedom.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2007-06-22   22:39:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'd feel better about paying taxes if my government actually represented me, or did the jobs they were supposed to do, as opposed to give money to countries that hate us, allow terrorists to kill our citizens, and of course, the outright treason that takes place daily in the house and the senate.

No! Tell me it ain't so, Tommy! It can't be! You mean there is actually something we agree on! MY WORD! The chickens have come home Bertha!

Well, just remember, what is going on in Washington, DC, is our fault, cause we let it start. Now, take a look at the last sentence in this quote, and remember it.

Jack Cole Co. v. MacFarland 337 S.W. 2d. 453, 455-456 (Tenn. 1960) "Since the Right to receive income or earnings is a Right belonging to every person, this right cannot be taxed as a privilege." It can, however, be contracted away.

The Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

richard9151  posted on  2007-06-22   23:21:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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