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Title: Are doom & gloomers ever right?
Source:
Mister Clean
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 9, 2007
Author: Mister Clean
Post Date: 2007-08-09 10:09:25 by Mister Clean
Keywords: economic collapse, terrorism, global warming
Views: 1879
Comments: 213
Are doom & gloomers ever right in their numerous and freqent predictions of disaster? I'm not simply talking about the garden variety doom & gloomers who are constantly predicting a massive economic collapse or continually warning about the evil plans of the New World Order. I also include the al-Qaeda fearmongers who are constantly predicting nuclear Jihad in America. I'm also talking about the global warming alarmists who predict that the east coast of the US will eventually be submerged in a major flood. These groups of doom & gloomers have different agendas for sure but they're basically the same in their fearmongering and pessimissm. It's as if they want a disaster to happen so they can screech "I told you so!" Fortunately, these prophets of disaster are as wrong in their predictions as they are negative and pessimistic. I really wonder why America is full of these types of people.
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#1. To: Mister Clean (#0)
Yes. We nailed the Iraqi mess, didn't we. Not to mention the disaster that is
BUSH, open immigration, free trade and the overall fraud that is the checked
pant Republican party.
I wouldn't characterize those who predicted trouble in Iraq as "doom & gloomers." A lot of military guys who are not miserable pessimists knew Iraq was going to go bad and they are certainly not the same as those who think a hot summer is a sign of global warming. I'm referring to those who are CONSTANTLY predicting some horrendous disaster; economic collapse, terrorism, global warming, peak oil, New World Order... and so on.
I was thinking about this the other day. Unlike the rapture cults of the 20th century, doom-and-gloomers are at least smart enough never to pinpoint WHEN this terrible event will occur. If it happens in 3 days, or it happens in 50 years, the predictions are equally as accurate. In the cases where they HAVE predicted a date, like supposed food riots in the late 1970s or whatever, they usually have a whole new disaster scenario cooked up by the time their first one fails to come through. Sure helps to sell books, I guess.
The "Department of Defense" has never won a war. The "War Department" was undefeated.
on the other hand, there's those on the other side who deny reality and/or perpetuate the myth that all is hunky dory.
Ah…..think of the New World Order as the destruction of this nation via perpetual war, open borders, a devalued dollar, multiculturalism, hate speech legislation and a growing dependency on communist China and other “trade partners.” In that limited respect alone we REALISTS nailed it.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Yeah, excellent point. By avoiding specific dates, they can maintain credibility with other doom & gloomers when the predictions don't materialize. Disaster is always lurking around the corner.
Actually, they're almost never wrong, they merely fall under the variations of the rule that states "The Market [read also System, or Society] can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent". If they were actually wrong in the aggregate, or over time, then there would be evidence like a return to sound money, or politicians suddenly spending less, and the Constitution actually being followed to the letter. Ya see that happening? I don't think so, so a word to the wise - Hope for the best but remain prepared for the worst, and the possibility you merely might have to pass on those preparations to your kids...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
Fat lot of good that does in keeping us from always getting drug into the "rosy outlooker's" messes, and we usually end up being the ones to fix it too!
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
I've been hearing predictions of a massive economic collapse for almost 20 years now and it hasn't happened. But the typical doom & gloomer says it's just around the corner. I really don't see much difference between them and those who say al-Qaeda is about to detonate a nuke in America.
The traitor continues to speak of his desire to destroy America. He who ears to hear, let him hear.
Ron Paul for President
No, it's the name George Orwell - a Fabian socialist - named one of his books. It's also the name Bush #41 sputtered some 200 times, much to the consternation of the FReeples and other pukes.
True but it is still the term conspiracy theorists and doom & gloomers use to describe globalization and other circumstances. 5 minutes listening to Alex Jones will make that clear.
Since globalization is a key component to the destruction of our national sovereignty (see NWO), I’d say it’s use by Jones, et all, is quite appropriate.
Oh F***ing please!... What a load of crap. If the "complex realities of globalization" involve selling out our sovereignity, thrashing our rights, socializing our nation and lowering our standard of living you can cram them up your ass... Since when do the "complex realities of globalization" need to involve weakening our patent system? Since when do they need to involve "norming" our firearms ownership to a world ban standard? Since when does it need to involve enslaving us to debt? Since when does it need to involve lopsided trade wherein we're hamstrung by tighter regulation, taxes, and labor laws? Since when does it need to involve emission treaties that would deny us the very innovations that would make it a breeze for us to comply... Ad infinitum... Dude, get a grip, or pass around some of what your smoking...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Is this guy from the Brookings Institute? What the ? Would you buy a flying saucer from this man?
Things are changing and they will continue to change. It would be better to adapt rather than screech about the "globalists" and their evil plans.
Clean has been thrown out of more forums than I can name. Man of many names,
Firearms have not been banned in America.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
No, Klein...you owe everyone a short essay on the above bizarre statement. I think you'll be able a lot?
And there were several instances where is was a very close brush that that collapse didn't occur due to frantic management of money and markets. It kept the wheels on for the time being, but you're not paying $3.00 for a gallon of gasoline and $4.00 for a loaf of bread now because either of the materials to create them are any scarcer or more difficult to process...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
well said, ax. Mr Clean, you act as though world leaders have never said so themselves! here ya go, take your blinders off.
I like the published monthly predictions of Bush or Israel or both attacking Iran 'next month'. It's also fun to listen toe the CYA talk from the 'homeland security' and the other 'authorities', always confidently stating that 'we are going to be attacked again' so, if that ever happens they can say 'see? we told you so!, now let's go on with the torture program'.
Antiparty - find out why, think about 'how'
Never stated they have been, did you decide that needed to be stated merely to imply I had? Now, the desire is surely there, and the elitists of the world carp and bemoan our heavy ownership to no end, of that, there is no doubt. And they make no bones about its eventuality, though I'm ready to insure there's a few less of them after they try...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
I'll give you an example. The plans for the Trans Texas Corridor along with the idea of the NASCO highway along with the SPP are all understood by conspiracy theorists as part of the evil New World Order when, in reality, they are just elements of the process of globalization.
"I am Clean, of the Borg. Prepare for assimilation!"
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Close doesn't count. Every time the market experiences a technical correction, the doom & gloomers come out from under their rocks in gleeful anticipation of a new depression. They're always disappointed! As far as prices go, well, they always go up. That's life.
It's also fun to listen toe the CYA talk from the 'homeland security' and the other 'authorities', always confidently stating that 'we are going to be attacked again' so, if that ever happens they can say 'see? we told you so!, now let's go on with the torture program'. They're all the same! I've been hearing how an attack on Iran is just about to happen. But it never happens. Just like every dire prediction of nuclear jihad or an attack by al-Qaeda using bio-weapons. It never happens.
You said that US gun laws are "norming" to a "world ban standard." That has not happened.
NWO = Globalization = Bullshit... If a global government is such a get out all kick ass notion, I wonder why none of the champagne, brie, and pate' swilling crowd has come to the conclusion that it'd be best done by amalgamating the entire globe under a constitution identical to ours with equal representation and reeking of freedom??? Oh, I know, it's because they lust for power and control and a return to a technological version of the age when they were kings and queens and "Gods direct representative on earth" to us rubes. Fuck that noise. There's a lot of the rest of the planet where you and the other globalist ilk can play serf, you just leave the 48 contiguous, Hawaii, and Alaska to the messy freedom lovers and butt the hell out. And while we're at it, stay the fuck off our moon too...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Count me in as a "doom & gloomer" if that's the label. Someone has to warn people about what is around the corner. Those who ignore the warning signs, and there are many, will continue to live in the faux reality where they feel the most comfortable. Empirical historical evidence suggests that breakdowns in social order occur often and there are usually ample warning signs beforehand. In this time it's not so difficult to get a handle on the converging perils- the financial / economic system, biological hazards, war, natural disasters, the burgeoning police state (what do YOU think these preparations are being made for?), and so-called terrorism. The warnings are everywhere. People like Mister Clean can ignore the warnings and discredit the messengers, but I consider it a personal responsibility to be aware of what is happening in the world and warn others about the intuition of what's coming. At this point, I'd venture to say an event is at the doorstep. Nearly everyone is absolutely dependant on supermarkets for their food and municipalities for their water & power. That dependence is too dangerous to ignore out of hand. Sadly, even conventional wisdom regarding our future is ignored at our own peril. Speaking for myself, It's not "I told you so" after the fact, it's "I'm trying to warn you" before it's too late. We live in dangerous times. America, insulated from the realities of our world for generations, has two choices as a nation. Wake up and make the sacrifices necessary to steer clear of disaster, or ignore the the warnings and face the consequences. I've made my choice. It appears that Mr. clean has made his. Peace
Who has come out and literally proposed a global government? Nobody.
We've all been thrown out of somewhere, that's why we're here.
The "Department of Defense" has never won a war. The "War Department" was undefeated.
It always is.
"Since when do they need to involve "norming" our firearms ownership to a world ban standard?" Dude, parse that statement and compare it to the quoted... Now, in retrospect, I'll agree that, yes, they are norming. Can I no longer get a 10+ round mag in CA? Yes. Is the 1968 gun control act modeled after the National Socialists of Germanys? Yes. If you don't think firearms ownership has gotten more difficult over time then you're hopeless. And BTW, it hasn't done what it was touted to do either...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Nobody. Poppy Bush New World Order
Ron Paul for President
Big freaking deal. You think you can fight the New World Order with a 10+ round mag? Ha!
I'd say "holding a war in one of the world's largest oil-producing countries" would qualify as making gasoline more difficult to process. And I don't know where you do your shopping, but I can buy fresh bread 6 blocks away for a buck per loaf.
The "Department of Defense" has never won a war. The "War Department" was undefeated.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Nobody. Actions speak louder than words, and while no government comes right out and proposes it, their proxies in the big foundations and NGO's make no bones about it. Rather than red herring that statement, why not take a shot at answering it?
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Many times they are. It's just that you've lived in a historically anomalous time in a historically anomalous place so from your point of reference they've always been wrong. America is a tiny part of the wold population that has had a good bit of fortune. What is commonplace elsewhere would be considered a fat tail event here. The thing about fat tail events though is the longer you go without one, the more likely one is going to happen.
I should have pinged you too, from Poppy Bush's own lips, a New World Order... http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=58908&Disp=38#C38
Ron Paul for President
They're not fighting the "New World Order."
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if a) your city is below water; and b) the levies fail; that c) your city is going to flood. Likewise it was clear to anyone within the first six months of Gulf War II that the Iraqi insurgency was going to be impossible to defeat without killing every man, woman, and child over there. But what about all the things that were supposed to have killed us by now? SARS, West Nile Virus, Bird Flu, and that "next" Spanish Flu that's just lurking in the wings? Posters on this board and others took those ideas and ran for the hills, buying Tamiflu, etc. For 5 years now, I've been hearing that the dollar is going to become worthless paper and that gold will skyrocket to $1,000 or $2,000 or $12,000 per ounce. That would actually be a really awesome scenario for me, since I am in the gold business and could pay off my debts with worthless paper, but it keeps not happening. What happened to the FEMA camps that Bill and Hillary were going to lock every gun owner into? What happened to Bill and Hillary refusing to leave office in 2001? For 5 years now, I've heard of the impending market crash, even being dumb enough to keep most of my money out of the market, while the DOW gained 5,000 points. Ridiculous.
The "Department of Defense" has never won a war. The "War Department" was undefeated.
When? Where? What?
Except when they go down. Down is the natural state for them to go. It takes alot of central planning to keep them going up.
You think you can fight the New World Order with a 10+ round mag? Ha! Um, if you look at the track record of independance movements and guerilla actions you'd note that governments, in the past, have seldom come out on top. Also, I don't need to win myself, I would merely need to sell myself dearly. Cowards see long odds and fold to tyranny, freedom lovers fight against long odds, even when there is low hope of winning. BTW, I thought you were of the opinion that the NWO is fictional???
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Guess it really depends on what you're talking about. The cost of making and distributing motion pictures has gone up, therefore the cost of movie tickets has gone up.
When the Mongols entered northern Persia you don't think there was a guy in Baghdad talking about doom and gloom for the city in a few years? You don't think anybody in Poland thought there were hard times coming when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany?
If you think a 10+ mag will protect yourself from mean ole Uncle Sam and his NWO buddies, you're crazy. Uncle Sam has got more guns than you could ever dream of. Besides, Americans are consumers, not guerrilla fighters.
Then why does Uncle Sam lose so many wars?
You mean Christine is running a forum of castoffs, rejects and assorted ner do wells? Maybe that is why I feel at home.
And the dollar was the only thing the DOW "went up in". Against nearly every other metric, it's been flat or down.
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Input costs don't set the price of goods.
How come the ragtag Iraqi militias are driving out Uncle Sam?
You don't think anybody in Poland thought there were hard times coming when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany? When I talk about doom & gloomers, I'm talking about people who are CONTINUALLY warning about horrors that await us just around the corner, horrors that never materialize. I gave 3 examples in my original post: economic collapse, terrorism and global warming. I'm not talking about smart people who could see trouble ahead based on specific, credible information. A lot of military guys saw disaster in Iraq, but that doesn't put them in the same category as the doom & gloomer who is continually hyperventilating about al-Qaeda getting nukes.
Because the US government is not fighting to conquer.
Uncle Sam has got more guns than you could ever dream of. Besides, Americans are consumers, not guerrilla fighters. You think you could focus that thimble sized hunk of gray matter and stay on point here? When you keep wandering off track in a feeble attempt at discrediting extraneous statements and walking the subject all over the block, you look like and idiot... BTW, don't forget, you don't believe in the NWO and seem to hold "Uncle Sam" as our benevolent loving benifactor...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
What's your point again? You're afraid the NWO is coming after your precious guns?
Holy crap, that's a caveat and a half. So in the case of economic collapse (or some sub variant), 3000 years of the continuous failure of fiat money systems doesn't count as "specific, credible information???
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
outstanding, as always. i think about you often and hope you're doing well, j.
touche'
No, the point we were on was globalization and a "New World Order", your obvious infatuation with globalization and whether or not it was a good thing. Your infatuation with my stand on firearms ownership is a side bar you seemed to need to focus on (though I did rise to it...)
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
Here in the US they rarely materialize. Other places in the world a doom and gloomer could be a prophet.
The doom & gloomers who have been predicting an economic collapse for years have been consistently wrong. That's really the point. That's the kind of doom & gloomer I'm referring to, the chicken littles who always see disaster ahead yet the disaster they see never materializes.
How many would they have to kill before you considered it "fighting to conquer"?
By and large I think globalization is a good thing.
It's not about numbers, it's about goals and tactics. The US fought to conquer Germany and Japan.
Totally different ballgame when the people accept the surrender decision of the central government.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
The US fought to conquer Germany and Japan. Now now, nuking does not count. You were talking about guns, not atomic bombs. Powerful Western militaries have trouble on the battlefield (witness the Vietnam War, Iraq, Hezbollah vs. Israel, etc.).
hehehehe..love it!
I'm sure the bombing of Dresden and the 2 nukes in Japan helped the people accept surrender.
Which "World Bank Types" advocated war on Iraq?
The point is that the US is not "winning" in Iraq because the war is not being waged to conquer Iraq. The fact that insurgents have guns is not the reason there is no "victory" for the US.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
So nuking is pretty much the only way to "win". I see.
People were predicting the US civil war 30 years before it happened.
The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Mr. Speaker, I rise to introduce the “Right to Keep and Bear Arms Act.” This legislation prohibits US taxpayer dollars from being used to support or promote any United Nations actions that could infringe on the Second Amendment. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms Act also expresses the sense of Congress that proposals to tax, or otherwise limit, the right to keep and bear arms are “reprehensible and deserving of condemnation.” Over the past decade, the UN has waged a campaign to undermine gun rights protected by the Second Amendment of the US Constitution. UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan has called on members of the Security Council to “tackle” the proliferation and “easy availability” of small arms and light weapons. Just this June, the UN tried to “tackle” gun rights by sponsoring a “Week of Action Against Small Arms.” Of course, by small arms, the UN really means all privately owned firearms. Secretary Annan is not the only globalist calling for international controls on firearms. For example, some world leaders, including French President Jacques Chirac, have called for a global tax on firearms. Meanwhile, the UN Security Council’s “Report of the Group of Governmental Experts on Small Arms” calls for a comprehensive program of worldwide gun control and praises the restrictive gun polices of Red China and France! Contrary to the UN propaganda, the right to keep and bear arms is a fundamental right and, according to the drafters of the Constitution, the guardian of every other right. Scholar John Lott has shown that respecting the right to keep and bear arms is one of the best ways governments can reduce crime. Conversely, cities where the government imposes gun control have higher crime rates. Far from making people safer, gun control endangers innocent people by increasing the odds that they will be victimized! Gun control also increases the odds that people will lose their lives and liberties to power-hungry government officials. Tyrannical governments throughout the world kill approximately 2,000,000 people annually. Many of these victims of tyranny were first disarmed by their governments. If the UN is successful in implementing a global regime of gun control, more innocent lives will be lost to public (and private) criminals. I would remind my colleagues that policies prohibiting the private ownership of firearms were strongly supported by tyrants such as Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Tse-Tung. Mr. Speaker, global gun control is a recipe for global tyranny and a threat to the safety of all law-abiding persons. I therefore hope all my colleagues will help protect the fundamental human right to keep and bear arms by cosponsoring the Right to Keep and Bear Arms Act. Dr. Ron Paul is a Republican member of Congress from Texas.
The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke
WHAT RECORD HIGH? As the Dow burst through the 13,000 milestone this week, few understood the hollowness of the achievement. Measured against the rising dollar-denominated prices of just about everything else on the planet, the Dow has actually lost value over the past seven years. Measured against the truest benchmark, the price of gold, the record high for the Dow was set back in January of 2000 when its price equaled approximately 43 ounces of gold. Today it is only worth about 19 ounces. * * * Despite its recent eclipse of 13,000 the Dow now buys Try figuring what the Dow will buy in terms of other necessities, such as housing, insurance, college tuition or hospitalization. Any way you measure it, the Dow is worth far less today then it was in January of 2000. Back in 1980 one Zimbabwe dollar was worth more than one U.S. dollar. Therefore a billionaire in Zimbabwe was also a billionaire in America. Today, almost everyone in Zimbabwe is a billionaire yet few of them can afford a pack of chewing gum. Do you think that anyone invested in the Zimbabwean stock market these past 30 years cares how many record highs that market has made? http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/schiff/2007/0427.html
The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke
I really wonder why America is full of these types of people. I wouldn't say they are wrong, as this is far from a perfect world and major and minor catastrophes of all sorts have frequently occured throughout history.
How I wish I could go just ONE day in my life without having to see or hear the word HITLER.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Subtle persuasion to imprint it on the minds of the masses. Over and over and over every day every day.
Will counts for a lot, and the Iraqis have a very strong will to rid their country of invaders.
It drives me nuts, I'm so tired of it. At this point you'd think the only thing that happened during the 20th century was HITLER and his evil deeds. Yesterday someone here brought up Mussolini, I realized I knew almost nothing about him so I read about him. It made me realize even more how most of what I know of WWII is HITLER. Hitler is everywhere. There are many documentaries about him on the History Channel, or used to be when I still had a tv, in magazines there are always countless references to Hitler, there are nazi movies put out on a regular basis to further "remind" us, I'm just so tired of being beaten over the head with Hitler. We even have to pay for the construction in this country of holocaust museums, as if we are the guilty party, nevermind American soldiers lost their lives ridding Germany of Hitler. And nevermind all the millions upon millions who died around the globe during the 20th century as a result of various atrocities. Just yesterday when I read about Mussolini for instance I found out he invaded Ethiopia and had ordinary citizens there killed in an effort to control the place. SO much went on that we never hear about, because we are only suppose to care about what HITLER did.
Oh good grief not again.
Can we PLEASE move on??
The market is tanking again. Dow down 275 points. Just call me a doom and gloomer;^)
That was one hell of a campaign; the Italians bombed warriors with spears on horseback with both bombs and guns. The Italians wanted to expand their holdings (Somaliland) in the Horn of Africa. The Ethiopians being one of the oldest Christian churches didn't seem to affect Italians consciences. Just recently, however, the Italians returned a giant obelisk back to Ethiopia. But not to worry, those civilized Britishers, in a campaign supported by the Great Winston, dropped poison gas and mustard gas on both Arabs and Kurds in 1923. Where do you think Saddam got the idea from? Not to mention the gas? But, you have a mind where you are actually reading up about history. It's a shame but the American educational system thinks history is not essential, hence it's current incorporation into the hodgepodge referred to as social studies.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
But not to worry, those civilized Britishers, in a campaign supported by the Great Winston, dropped poison gas and mustard gas on both Arabs and Kurds in 1923. Where do you think Saddam got the idea from? Not to mention the gas? Last night I was thinking I'd like to find a few good history books, because there is so much that happened that I don't know about. For instance I had no idea about the Italian invasion of Ethiopia and the extent of the brutality of that operation where many men, women and children died horrific deaths.
Even before Bush we were bombarded with Hitler. What worries me is that too many people as a result will not know about the other many atrocities that occured, for instance the Soviet and Chinese slaughter of millions of their own people, and the many others we rarely hear about any longer. I'm sure in time the Hitler craze will pass, perhaps to be replaced by another. Maybe before it's all over with Bush will have taken his place, though at this point it's Arabs and others who are being slaughtered for the most part, not Americans, though that could change. I don't have much faith in human nature at all.
No, that's NOT "life", that's INFLATION, and when you have a monetary system based upon fiat currency, you are more or less sure to have said inflation. Before we allowed the "Federal Reserve" to take over our currency, we had a Constitutional system of currency based upon precious metals, and a dollar was defined as being a certain weight of silver. As a result, prices did NOT "always go up" for a period of over one hundred years. It wasn't until the US abandoned the Constitution and allowed the Fed to print money out of thin air that we embarked upon our current course of endless inflation. Keep in mind that a dollar today will purchase about as much as two cents would back in 1913. That's NOT "life". That's INFLATION. Caused by endless debasing of the currency. Currency debasement is a favorite pastime of governments, and it always ends with said currency eventually becoming worthless. Always has, and always will. You would do well to read up on Ludwig Von Mises and the views of the "Austrian school" of economics. Now, does this mean the entire economy will eventually shut down? No. As Ludwig Von Mises so brillantly stated, "Economics is human action". As long as people produce and create and exchange their products and labor there will be economics. Does this mean we are going to eventually see a period of wrenching readjustment as our current fiat currency system loses popular appeal and support, and some other form of currency eventually asserts itself as being a more desirable medium of exchange? I can, with certainty, say "yes". I cannot say WHEN it will happen, but I can say that it WILL happen.
#2. To: Jethro Tull (#1)
Yes. We nailed the Iraqi mess, didn't we. Not to mention the disaster that is BUSH.
#3. To: Mister Clean (#0)
Are doom & gloomers ever right in their numerous and freqent predictions of disaster?
#4. To: Mister Clean (#0)
#5. To: Mister Clean (#2)
#6. To: Indrid Cold (#3)
#7. To: Indrid Cold (#3)
I was thinking about this the other day. Unlike the rapture cults of the 20th century, doom-and-gloomers are at least smart enough never to pinpoint WHEN this terrible event will occur. If it happens in 3 days, or it happens in 50 years, the predictions are equally as accurate.
#8. To: Mister Clean (#0)
Are doom & gloomers ever right in their numerous and freqent predictions of disaster?
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#5)
Ah…..think of the New World Order as the destruction of this nation via perpetual war, open borders, a devalued dollar, multiculturalism, hate speech legislation and a growing dependency on communist China and other “trade partners.”
#10. To: ghostdogtxn (#6)
but at least the doom and gloomers don't get caught with their dicks in a hornet's nest because they think everything is roses all the damn time.
#11. To: Axenolith (#8)
If they were actually wrong in the aggregate, or over time, then there would be evidence like a return to sound money, or politicians suddenly spending less, and the Constitution actually being followed to the letter.
#12. To: Mister Clean, *Destroying the Middle Class* (#9)
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
#13. To: Mister Clean (#9)
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
#14. To: Jethro Tull (#13)
No, it's the name George Orwell - a Fabian socialist - named one of his books. It's also the name Bush #41 sputtered some 200 times, much to the consternation of the FReeples and other pukes.
#15. To: Mister Clean (#14)
#16. To: Mister Clean (#9)
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
#17. To: robin, Mister Klein (#12)
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"
#18. To: Jethro Tull (#15)
Since globalization is a key component to the destruction of our national sovereignty (see NWO), I’d say it’s use by Jones, et all, is quite appropriate.
#19. To: Axenolith (#16)
Dude, get a grip, or pass around some of what your smoking...
#20. To: Axenolith (#16)
Since when do they need to involve "norming" our firearms ownership to a world ban standard?
#21. To: Axenolith (#10)
#22. To: Mister Clean (#20)
The New World Order is the name given to the complex realities of globalization by those who don't understand it.
“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"
#23. To: Mister Clean (#11)
I've been hearing predictions of a massive economic collapse for almost 20 years now and it hasn't happened. But the typical doom & gloomer says it's just around the corner.
#24. To: Axenolith, Mr Clean (#16)
#25. To: Mister Clean (#0)
#26. To: Mister Clean (#20)
#27. To: Eoghan (#22)
No, Klein...you owe everyone a short essay on the above bizarre statement. I think you'll be able a lot?
#28. To: Mister Clean (#18)
It would be better to adapt rather than screech about the "globalists" and their evil plans.
#29. To: Axenolith (#23)
And there were several instances where is was a very close brush that that collapse didn't occur due to frantic management of money and markets. It kept the wheels on for the time being, but you're not paying $3.00 for a gallon of gasoline and $4.00 for a loaf of bread now because either of the materials to create them are any scarcer or more difficult to process...
#30. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#25)
I like the published monthly predictions of Bush or Israel or both attacking Iran 'next month'.
#31. To: Axenolith (#26)
Never stated they have been, did you decide that needed to be stated merely to imply I had?
#32. To: Mister Clean (#27)
...understood by conspiracy theorists as part of the evil New World Order when, in reality, they are just elements of the process of globalization.
#33. To: ghostdogtxn (#6)
Doom and gloomers (like me) predicted that the housing market was a bubble that would eventually pop and collapse.
#34. To: Axenolith (#32)
If a global government is such a get out all kick ass notion, I wonder why none of the champagne, brie, and pate' swilling crowd has come to the conclusion that it'd be best done by amalgamating the entire globe under a constitution identical to ours with equal representation and reeking of freedom???
#35. To: Cynicom (#19)
Clean has been thrown out of more forums than I can name.
#36. To: lightmind (#33)
At this point, I'd venture to say an event is at the doorstep.
#37. To: Mister Clean (#31)
You said that US gun laws are "norming" to a "world ban standard."
#38. To: Mister Clean (#34)
Who has come out and literally proposed a global government?
#39. To: Axenolith (#37)
Now, in retrospect, I'll agree that, yes, they are norming. Can I no longer get a 10+ round mag in CA? Yes. Is the 1968 gun control act modeled after the National Socialists of Germanys? Yes.
#40. To: Axenolith (#23)
but you're not paying $3.00 for a gallon of gasoline and $4.00 for a loaf of bread now because either of the materials to create them are any scarcer or more difficult to process...
#41. To: Indrid Cold (#35)
#42. To: Mister Clean (#34)
Who has come out and literally proposed a global government?
#43. To: Mister Clean (#39)
#44. To: Mister Clean (#0)
Are doom & gloomers ever right in their numerous and freqent predictions of disaster?
#45. To: Axenolith (#42)
#46. To: ghostdogtxn (#43)
The Iraqis are doing a pretty good job of fighting the new world order with AKs and plastique.
#47. To: ghostdogtxn (#6)
Well, the doom and gloomers of National Geographic Magazine noticed that most of New Orleans proper was under sea level and proposed that a breach in the levies might result in flooding and death.
#48. To: SmokinOPs (#44)
Many times they are.
#49. To: Mister Clean (#29)
As far as prices go, well, they always go up.
#50. To: Mister Clean (#39)
Big freaking deal.
#51. To: SmokinOPs (#49)
Down is the natural state for them to go. It takes alot of central planning to keep them going up.
#52. To: Mister Clean (#48)
When? Where? What?
#53. To: Axenolith (#50)
Um, if you look at the track record of independance movements and guerilla actions you'd note that governments, in the past, have seldom come out on top.
#54. To: Mister Clean (#53)
Uncle Sam has got more guns than you could ever dream of.
#55. To: Indrid Cold (#35)
We've all been thrown out of somewhere, that's why we're here.
#56. To: Indrid Cold (#47)
For 5 years now, I've heard of the impending market crash, even being dumb enough to keep most of my money out of the market, while the DOW gained 5,000 points.
#57. To: Mister Clean (#51)
The cost of making and distributing motion pictures has gone up, therefore the cost of movie tickets has gone up.
#58. To: Mister Clean (#53)
If you think a 10+ mag will protect yourself from mean ole Uncle Sam and his NWO buddies, you're crazy.
#59. To: SmokinOPs (#52)
When the Mongols entered northern Persia you don't think there was a guy in Baghdad talking about doom and gloom for the city in a few years?
#60. To: Ringo Blankenship (#58)
How come the ragtag Iraqi militias are driving out Uncle Sam?
#61. To: Mister Clean (#53)
If you think a 10+ mag will protect yourself from mean ole Uncle Sam and his NWO buddies, you're crazy.
#62. To: Axenolith (#61)
You think you could focus that thimble sized hunk of gray matter and stay on point here?
#63. To: Mister Clean (#59)
I'm not talking about smart people who could see trouble ahead based on specific, credible information.
#64. To: lightmind (#33)
#65. To: a vast rightwing conspirator (#25)
It's also fun to listen toe the CYA talk from the 'homeland security' and the other 'authorities', always confidently stating that 'we are going to be attacked again' so, if that ever happens they can say 'see? we told you so!, now let's go on with the torture program'.
#66. To: Mister Clean (#62)
#67. To: Mister Clean (#59)
When I talk about doom & gloomers, I'm talking about people who are CONTINUALLY warning about horrors that await us just around the corner, horrors that never materialize
#68. To: Axenolith (#63)
So in the case of economic collapse (or some sub variant), 3000 years of the continuous failure of fiat money systems doesn't count as "specific, credible information???
#69. To: Mister Clean (#60)
Because the US government is not fighting to conquer.
#70. To: Axenolith (#66)
No, the point we were on was globalization and a "New World Order", your obvious infatuation with globalization and whether or not it was a good thing.
#71. To: SmokinOPs (#69)
How many would they have to kill before you considered it "fighting to conquer"?
#72. To: Mister Clean (#71)
The US fought to conquer Germany and Japan.
#73. To: Mister Clean (#46)
#74. To: Mister Clean (#71)
It's not about numbers, it's about goals and tactics.
#75. To: Axenolith, Jethro Tull (#32)
There's a lot of the rest of the planet where you and the other globalist ilk can play serf, you just leave the 48 contiguous, Hawaii, and Alaska to the messy freedom lovers and butt the hell out.
#76. To: SmokinOPs (#72)
Totally different ballgame when the people accept the surrender decision of the central government.
#77. To: ghostdogtxn (#73)
You need to seriously study why we are there and what we are fighting for. It has to do with oil, sure, but also monetary structures, Saddam's refusal to play ball with the World Bank types, and a lot of other very "new world order" things.
#78. To: Ringo Blankenship (#74)
You were talking about guns, not atomic bombs.
#79. To: Indrid Cold (#47)
#80. To: Mister Clean (#78)
The point is that the US is not "winning" in Iraq because the war is not being waged to conquer Iraq. The fact that insurgents have guns is not the reason there is no "victory" for the US.
#81. To: Axenolith (#8)
Actually, they're almost never wrong, they merely fall under the variations of the rule that states "The Market [read also System, or Society] can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".
#82. To: Mister Clean (#77)
#83. To: DeaconBenjamin (#81)
#84. To: Mister Clean (#20)
#85. To: Axenolith, indrid cold (#56)
Come on Indrid, you know this:
by Peter Schiff
April 27, 2007
30% fewer euros than it did then back in 2000 when it was priced at approximately 11,500.
35% fewer gallons of milk,
40% fewer bushels of corn or wheat,
65% fewer ounces of silver,
70% fewer barrels of oil,
80% fewer pounds of copper, and
90% fewer pounds of uranium.
#86. To: Mister Clean (#0)
Fortunately, these prophets of disaster are as wrong in their predictions as they are negative and pessimistic.
#87. To: ghostdogtxn, robin, Mister Clean, christine (#6)
OTOH, the "brightsiders" of the world predicted a cakewalk in Iraq, an ever- expanding housing market, didn't reinforce the levies and thought we could get along with Hitler just fine.
#88. To: Diana (#87)
#89. To: Diana (#87)
How I wish I could go just ONE day in my life without having to see or hear the word HITLER.
#90. To: Mister Clean (#78)
The point is that the US is not "winning" in Iraq because the war is not being waged to conquer Iraq. The fact that insurgents have guns is not the reason there is no "victory" for the US.
#91. To: Cynicom (#89)
Over and over and over every day every day.
#92. To: ghostdogtxn, cynicom (#79)
I'm sure there were Germans, even German Jews, who in 1935 who thought the very notion of a program of extermination of the Jews was "ridiculous",
#93. To: ghostdogtxn (#79)
who in 1935
#94. To: Diana (#93)
#95. To: Diana (#91)
Mussolini for instance I found out he invaded Ethiopia
#96. To: Diana (#93)
#97. To: swarthyguy (#95)
Just recently, however, the Italians returned a giant obelisk back to Ethiopia.
#98. To: ghostdogtxn, swarthyguy (#96)
I don't think you are going to see any moving on so long as we've got a guy like Bush fantasizing about US hegemony over the world. It's just too familiar a refrain.
#99. To: Mister Clean (#29)
As far as prices go, well, they always go up. That's life.
 | Capitalism is NOT an economic system, it's a RELIGION for ASSHOLES! |
#100. To: Diana, Cynicom, Jethro Tull, christine, swarthyguy, aristeides, lodwick, robin (#98)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#101. To: Elliott Jackalope, Mister Clean (#99)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#102. To: Fred Mertz (#94)
Dow Plunges 300 on Mortgage Concerns.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#103. To: Elliott Jackalope (#99)
educative post (return to a sound money system and nearly all of our ills vanish)
#104. To: christine (#103)
Not to mention also the fact that the [un]sound money system is essentially why we ended up with Hitler, Stalin, etc...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
#105. To: Elliott Jackalope (#99)
Just like those who say it's a matter of WHEN al-Qaeda gets nukes. I don't buy into such nonsense.
I cannot say WHEN it will happen, but I can say that it WILL happen.
#106. To: Diana (#90)
Whatever. I really don't care about the Iraq fiasco anymore.
Will counts for a lot, and the Iraqis have a very strong will to rid their country of invaders.
#107. To: Diana (#86)
Where is that economic collapse? Where are the UN troops patrolling our streets? Where is Y2K? Where are al-Qaeda's nukes? Where is the massive flooding of America from global warming? I could go on.
I wouldn't say they are wrong, as this is far from a perfect world and major and minor catastrophes of all sorts have frequently occured throughout history.
#108. To: Mister Clean (#106)
In that you do mirror the general zeitgeist around the country, to simply be done with that whole mess, wash our hands of the whole thing and pretend things will ever go back to what they were before the Invasion and Occupation.
I really don't care about the Iraq fiasco anymore
#109. To: ghostdogtxn (#82)
Got names?
The guys who want to keep the US dollar as the world's reserve currency whose power Saddam threatened when he began selling oil in Euros.
#110. To: swarthyguy (#108)
I don't know about the rest of the country but I've concluded it is a waste of my precious time to care about the Iraq fiasco since there is nothing I can do about it. Perhaps if the day comes where I am directly affected, I'll care again.
In that you do mirror the general zeitgeist around the country, to simply be done with that whole mess, wash our hands of the whole thing and pretend things will ever go back to what they were before the Invasion and Occupation.
#111. To: Mister Clean (#109)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#112. To: Mister Clean (#107)
Texas. Not that I mind at all. We had been in a record-breaking drought until this year.
Where is the massive flooding of America from global warming?
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
#113. To: Mister Clean (#109)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#114. To: Mister Clean (#106)
What do you think is the reason we are over there, you said it's not to conquer, I wondered what you think the reason is.
I really don't care about the Iraq fiasco anymore.
#115. To: Mister Clean (#110)
Perhaps if the day comes where I am directly affected, I'll care again. " ...why should we hear about body bags, and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's, it's not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"
I don't know about the rest of the country but I've concluded it is a waste of my precious time to care about the Iraq fiasco since there is nothing I can do about it.
| Capitalism is NOT an economic system, it's a RELIGION for ASSHOLES! |
#116. To: Sam Houston (#112)
And that's from global warming, huh? Sure.
Texas. Not that I mind at all. We had been in a record-breaking drought until this year.
#117. To: ghostdogtxn (#113)
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=WjPoeQRewiE&mode=related&search= I'm not interested in watching a video.
This one is shorter.
#118. To: Mister Clean (#110)
Ideally you are at least sort of suppose to care about others besides just yourself.
Perhaps if the day comes where I am directly affected, I'll care again.
#119. To: Diana (#114)
I have no idea at this point.
What do you think is the reason we are over there, you said it's not to conquer, I wondered what you think the reason is.
#120. To: Sam Houston, Mister Clean (#112)
Mister Clean has already stated on another thread that he does not care about Texas.
Texas. Not that I mind at all. We had been in a record-breaking drought until this year.
#121. To: Elliott Jackalope (#115)
Why should I care about something over which I have no influence? Riddle me that, bleeding heart.
" ...why should we hear about body bags, and deaths, and how many, what day it's gonna happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it's, it's not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?"
#122. To: Diana (#118)
How much do you REALLY care about people you don't even know and likely will never know? I say you can't really care all that much precisely because you don't know them.
Ideally you are at least sort of suppose to care about others besides just yourself.
#123. To: Diana (#114)
Well, you see- we are over in Iraq because we do have a flaw. We are too good. We just went over there to help those poor people. And they are obviously not deserving of our goodness. Yes yes, if some other country - say Russia- said they feared Saddam Hussein and his scary weapons of mass destruction and said they were going to invade to "pre-empt" an attack on them- we would laugh at that reason as utter bullshit and rightly believe that Russia was trying to get the oil and position itself to control the world's oil reserves. We would laugh at and ridicule their claims that they "Feared" tiny weak Iraq and its two bit leader - Hussein- and rightly see through this FEEBLE justification as easily as we saw through Hitler's lies for invading Poland. But- since WE invaded Iraq over fear of Saddam Hussein and his scary weapons- it is very believable because- see- we are good- and don't do things like that. No hidden agendas in America. Only kooks think that. We also invaded to help the Iraqi people- to give them democracy- now maybe this was naive thinking on our part- but we never have bad or selfish motives for going to war- unlike the rest of the world which is evil and stuff- we are uniquely good. Conqueor Iraq? LOL. Kook talk.
What do you think is the reason we are over there, you said it's not to conquer, I wondered what you think the reason is.
#124. To: Sam Houston (#112)
bring it back. we're back to being too hot and dry..and i love rain.
Texas. Not that I mind at all. We had been in a record-breaking drought until this year.
#125. To: Mister Clean (#121)
Riddle me that, bleeding heart. "Riddle me that, bleeding heart." Oh man, where to begin.... First of all, this is supposed to be a nation where WE THE PEOPLE supposedly have the power to determine the policies of our government. So, for example, say if this country were to embark upon a stupid, pointless, senseless war that was costing thousands and thousands of lives and hundreds of billions of dollars then, in theory, WE THE PEOPLE have not only a right, but a RESPONSIBILITY and a DUTY to stand up and confront our leaders, and tell them in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that we do NOT support their insane and destructive policies, and then we have a RESPONSIBILITY and a DUTY to do everything in our power to non-violently OPPOSE those insane and destructive policies. See, this is what CITIZENS are supposed to do. I'm really surprised and rather shocked that I have to explain this to you in this manner. This is supposed to be something that any fifth-grade student should know after having taking one or two classes on "civics". See, here's the deal Sparky.... when a nation degenerates to the point where its citizens abandon all hope of having any influence whatsoever over the leadership of said nation, then that nation has ceased to be a "representative government" and has instead devolved into one form or another of oligarchy or dictatorship. Now, I do freely acknowledge that our government is wholly beholden to powerful, well- funded interests, and that our current system of (s)electing leaders is a dreadful sham. BUT, this does NOT mean that we should simply give up trying to do anything whatsoever to oppose it when our so- called "leaders" proceed to embrace policies that are anathema to anyone with the ability to know the difference between RIGHT and WRONG. Seriously, I simply cannot BELIEVE that I have to EXPLAIN this to you!
Why should I care about something over which I have no influence?
| Capitalism is NOT an economic system, it's a RELIGION for ASSHOLES! |
#126. To: Diana (#114)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#127. To: DeaconBenjamin, Axenolith (#85)
Oh, good Lord, I don't translate everything into the price of gold before I make rash statements--gold is not some universal constant like the speed of light, fer chrissakes. Today gold dropped over $11. Does that mean that the government *removed* eleventy-seven million dollars from circulation, and that tomorrow, when gold goes up again, they'll have put back half of them? Gold is just a commodity now.
As the Dow burst through the 13,000 milestone this week, few understood the hollowness of the achievement. Measured against the rising dollar-denominated prices of just about everything else on the planet, the Dow has actually lost value over the past seven years. Measured against the truest benchmark, the price of gold, the record high for the Dow was set back in January of 2000 when its price equaled approximately 43 ounces of gold. Today it is only worth about 19 ounces.
The "Department of Defense" has never won a war. The "War Department" was undefeated.
#128. To: Mister Clean (#110)
Perhaps if the day comes where I am directly affected, I'll care again. By that logic, Germans shouldn't have cared about the evils that were being done in their name by the Nazi government.
I don't know about the rest of the country but I've concluded it is a waste of my precious time to care about the Iraq fiasco since there is nothing I can do about it.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#129. To: Elliott Jackalope (#125)
The sooner you accept that the better off you'll be.
See, here's the deal Sparky.... when a nation degenerates to the point where its citizens abandon all hope of having any influence whatsoever over the leadership of said nation, then that nation has ceased to be a "representative government" and has instead devolved into one form or another of oligarchy or dictatorship.
#130. To: aristeides (#128)
I'm going to guess that you care sooooooooooooooooo much about what's happening in Iraq. Now, tell me what all your caring has accomplished. (Besides making you feel good about yourself)
By that logic, Germans shouldn't have cared about the evils that were being done in their name by the Nazi government.
#131. To: Mister Clean (#129)
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams. And thank you for at least being honest enough to show your true colors.
| Capitalism is NOT an economic system, it's a RELIGION for ASSHOLES! |
#132. To: Mister Clean (#130)
I take your posting to indicate that you agree with my statement above, and think Germans shouldn't have cared. If you don't see what's wrong with thinking Germans shouldn't have cared, there really isn't much I can say to the likes of you.
By that logic, Germans shouldn't have cared about the evils that were being done in their name by the Nazi government.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#133. To: Elliott Jackalope (#131)
And thank you for at least being honest enough to show your true colors. I've never kept my "true colors" hidden. One day you may accept the fact that America is all about money. Always has been, always will be. You can dig up all kinds of quotes from the founders but it doesn't change reality. America wraps itself up in all kinds of grand illusions that sound so nice, illusions about freedom, democracy and the ability of the individual to change history with their vote. It's a lot of crap.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." - Samuel Adams.
#134. To: aristeides (#132)
If you don't see what's wrong with thinking Germans shouldn't have cared, there really isn't much I can say to the likes of you. I want to know what all of your caring has accomplished, particularly as far as Iraq goes.
I take your posting to indicate that you agree with my statement above, and think Germans shouldn't have cared.
#135. To: Burkeman1 (#123)
Oh no... I can't take it anymore, HITLER, again and again and again..... Arrgghhh!!! I would like to know the real reason we are over there though, I'd guess it's some misguided attempt to steal their oil, I read in 1996 that wars would soon break out in an effort to rein in the world's dwindling oil supply.
as easily as we saw through Hitler's lies for invading
#136. To: Diana (#135)
Yeah, it's pretty stupid to see Hitler/Nazi Germany pop up so much. I guess some people have a hard time making a point without the Hitler crutch.
Oh no... I can't take it anymore, HITLER, again and again and again.....
#137. To: aristeides, bluedogtxn (#128)
oh boy. One of these days I will turn off my computer, read nothing, no radio, and take a walk in the woods, maybe then I will get a break from HITLER.
in their name by the Nazi government.
#138. To: Mister Clean (#133)
Only it's crap that you seem very happy to accept.
It's a lot of crap.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#139. To: Mister Clean (#134)
What did Stauffenberg accomplish?
I want to know what all of your caring has accomplished, particularly as far as Iraq goes.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#140. To: Diana (#137)
If you don't see the parallels between Hitler's government and the current government here, maybe you would be better off turning off your computer.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#141. To: aristeides (#139)
Irrelevant. What has all of YOUR caring about Iraq done?
What did Stauffenberg accomplish?
#142. To: Mister Clean (#141) (Edited)
Why? I meant the example to illustrate the absurdity of your position. By the way, what, may I ask, has all YOUR posting here accomplished?
Irrelevant.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#143. To: aristeides (#142)
Since you won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. All of your caring about Iraq has accomplished absolutely nothing. Just like all of the anti-war protests and speeches and blogs have accomplished nothing as far as Iraq goes. Hey, if it makes you feel good about yourself to "care" about Iraq, knock yourself out. But it won't change anything.
Why? I meant the example to illustrate the absurdity of your position.
#144. To: aristeides (#142)
Entertainment.
By the way, what, may I ask, has all YOUR posting here accomplished?
#145. To: Mister Clean (#143)
So, because Stauffenberg's plot failed, he shouldn't have lifted a finger. At least according to you.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#146. To: aristeides, Mister Clean, bluedogtxn, cynicom, christine, Burkeman1, All (#132)
(I know that post was for Mister Clean.) Even though I'm sick of the implication that the nazi regime was the only one of it's kind that ever existed, I will say the German people most likely did not know all the was being carried out by their government, just like we don't know the extent of what our government is doing to all the men they are rounding up in various countries to put in torture camps. We know it's happening, but we know very few details as they are purposely being kept from us. I'm sure HITLER, Stalin, Mao, Mussolini, Saddam and the many other dictators did not tell their people all of their plans, in fact it's the norm for such governments to operate in secrecy. They tell their citizens one thing when in fact the reality is something else. It's about time to quit demonizing the German people, those Germans of 50+ years ago are no more guilty of the war crimes of their government than we are of ours. It took great courage for the Germans who spoke out in opposition to Hitler to do so, as most of them met with death as a result. Yet we hear almost nothing of those people, only how all Germans were guilty. In the future the world will be saying all Americans were guilty, and I resent that because I am very much against what this government is doing, taking away basic rights, slaughtering people in the mideast, the use of torture (horrifyingly evil and beyond words), etc.
I take your posting to indicate that you agree with my statement above, and think Germans shouldn't have cared.
#147. To: Mister Clean (#133)
America wraps itself up in all kinds of grand illusions that sound so nice, illusions about freedom, democracy and the ability of the individual to change history with their vote. It's a lot of crap. Sadly you're probably right about that.
One day you may accept the fact that America is all about money. Always has been, always will be. You can dig up all kinds of quotes from the founders but it doesn't change reality.
#148. To: Diana (#146)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#149. To: aristeides (#145)
I'm not the least bit interested in discussing the Nazi era. You really should just face present day reality and accept the fact that caring about the Iraq fiasco is a waste of time.
So, because Stauffenberg's plot failed, he shouldn't have lifted a finger. At least according to you.
#150. To: Diana (#146)
I come close to agreeing with your statement. I would just say Americans today are more guilty, because we know more, and are in considerably less danger if we speak out. I certainly don't intend to demonize all Germans, nor do I think that is a reasonable interpretation of my postings in this thread. You may have noticed that I mentioned Stauffenberg more than once.
It's about time to quit demonizing the German people, those Germans of 50+ years ago are no more guilty of the war crimes of their government than we are of ours.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#151. To: Mister Clean (#149)
Understandable, because it disproves your whole case.
I'm not the least bit interested in discussing the Nazi era.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#152. To: Mister Clean (#134)
It's a moral issue of not wanting evil things to be done in your name. Also some people are truly bothered when suffering is being inflicted on people.
I want to know what all of your caring has accomplished, particularly as far as Iraq goes.
#153. To: Mister Clean (#144)
By the way, what, may I ask, has all YOUR posting here accomplished? Entertainment. I take that as a confession that your posts are not serious.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#154. To: Diana (#152)
And some people are incapable of understanding that. We call them psychopaths.
Also some people are truly bothered when suffering is being inflicted on people.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#155. To: aristeides (#142)
Dow down 400 points today. Carry on, everyone.
By the way, what, may I ask, has all YOUR posting here accomplished?
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#156. To: Sam Houston (#112)
Texas. Not that I mind at all. We had been in a record-breaking drought until this year. Amen bump to that.
Where is the massive flooding of America from global warming?
#157. To: aristeides (#140)
Frankly I see more parallels with this government and the Soviet Union as far as social policies go, but as I pointed out Hitler was not the only dictator who murdered millions and conquered other nations slaughtering innocents. I'm just tired of Hitler always being brought up, it's part of the dumbing down of this country especially as far as history goes.
If you don't see the parallels between Hitler's government and the current government here, maybe you would be better off turning off your computer.
#158. To: christine (#124)
Indeed - sprinkler guy is coming over Saturday to replace our pos irrigation timer. We were enjoying those $13/month water bills, while it lasted. Back to shake and bake.
bring it back. we're back to being too hot and dry..and i love rain.
#159. To: DeaconBenjamin (#85)
http://www.boston.com/business/markets/articles/2007/08/09/wall_street_rises_on_tech_strength/ The Federal Reserve added a larger-than-normal $24 billion in temporary reserves to the U.S. banking system. The concerns that arose in Europe and spilled onto Wall Street underscored the potential worldwide ramifications of an implosion of some subprime loans and perhaps also weakened arguments that strength in the global economy could help keep profit growth going in the U.S. among large companies that do business overseas. The ECB's injection of money into the system is an unprecedented move, said Joseph V. Battipaglia, chief investment officer at Ryan Beck & Co., adding that it shows that problems in subprime lending are, in fact, spilling into the general economy. "This is a mini-panic," he said. "All the things that had been denied up until this point are unraveling. On top of this, retail sales were mediocre, which shows that indeed, the housing collapse is affecting the consumer." Retailers released July sales figures Thursday that were overall disappointing.
Someone picked a bad day to quit smoking...
“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"
#160. To: Mister Clean (#143)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#161. To: aristeides (#154)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#162. To: Diana (#152)
That doesn't change my point that all the caring in the world about the Iraq fiasco has led to nothing.
It's a moral issue of not wanting evil things to be done in your name.
#163. To: who knows what evil (#155)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#164. To: aristeides (#151)
No, because it's your feeble attempt to avoid admitting that caring about Iraq has accomplished nothing.
Understandable, because it disproves your whole case.
#165. To: ghostdogtxn (#148)
I'm not too hopeful as people tend to generalize. Already people around the world hate Americans, they have a stereotype for Americans and of course it's much easier for them to lump us all together as being for the war in Iraq and all fundie Christians who love Bush. If we could go back in time to 1938 Germany I bet we would learn a lot, that it was a much more complicated situation than what is now presented to us as history has made the nazi regime into such a black and white issue. For instance there was Daniel Goldhagen's bestseller about how all of the Germans were guilty and adored Hitler when nothing could be further from the truth. It was a brutal dictatorship and most people lived in fear as people do in any dictatorship. I'm sure the future holds the similar fate for Americans, there will be books written about how all Americans wanted all of the Arabs dead and practically worshipped Bush.
I hope the future records that there were more opinions on this than that of the Mr. Cleans of the world.
#166. To: Mister Clean, Diana (#162)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#167. To: ghostdogtxn (#160)
We? Uh, no. I had no role in killing anyone.
We've killed at least half a million people
#168. To: Diana (#165)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#169. To: ghostdogtxn (#160)
Again, what has that accomplished? The Democrats give Bush everything he demands! Haha!
Horseshit. It helped to change the electoral composition of the congress and will probably have a huge impact on the 2008 presidential election.
#170. To: ghostdogtxn, Mr. Clean (#160) (Edited)
We've killed at least half a million people
#171. To: Mister Clean (#167)
Ah, what Tribal Innocence....Yes, but what genius to start this thread today...quite the savvy investor. Any predictions for Friday?
Uh, no. I had no role in killing anyone.
“Yes, but is this good for Jews?"
#172. To: Mister Clean (#167)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#173. To: Mister Clean (#164)
On LP, aristeides was so effective at raising the level of awareness about the Bush regime and its agenda, that Goldi finally banned him and never gave a reason. Anyone with any moral sense is outraged over the destruction and genocide in Iraq and the incredible amount of human suffering. As aristeides pointed out, there is a label for a person who does not care about human suffering: psychopath. from wiki: Psychopathy is currently defined in psychiatry and clinical psychology as a condition characterized by lack of empathy [1] [2] or conscience, and poor impulse control [3] [4] or manipulative behaviors.[5] It is a term derived from the Greek psyche (soul, breath hence mind) and pathos (to suffer), and was once used to denote any form of mental illness, often being confused with psychosis. The Bush regime is loaded with psychopaths.
Ron Paul for President
#174. To: Eoghan (#171)
Tribal innocence? I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. As far as the market goes I'd say expect further volitility. If you're a short term trader, stock up on the antacids and asprin. If you're a doom & gloomer, get your hopes up yet again for the big crash that will not come!
Ah, what Tribal Innocence....Yes, but what genius to start this thread today...quite the savvy investor. Any predictions for Friday?
#175. To: ghostdogtxn (#172)
Speak for yourself. The way my tax dollars are spent is completely out of my control.
WE did this crime.
#176. To: ghostdogtxn, aristeides (#161)
Erm, not to quibble, but I think sociopaths is what we call them. Same thing, psychopaths was the term used for ages but recently they started calling them sociopaths. It's really like a blind spot, they simply are unable to care about others, but I know you guys know that, it's just something I think about at times. And of course there is no cure as you can't make a non-functioning area of someone's brain work when for all practical purposes it's dead, there is no activity where there should be.
We call them psychopaths.
#177. To: Mister Clean (#175)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#178. To: robin (#173)
Yes it's horrible and I can't imagine the suffering going on. But I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it, reading news articles about it or watching TV news reports about it because I have no influence over the policy. You see, the idea that your opinion really matters to policy makers is one of America's great illusions. You can be as concerned or as outraged as you want, they don't care and they're not listening to you.
Anyone with any moral sense is outraged over the destruction and genocide in Iraq and the incredible amount of human suffering.
#179. To: Mister Clean (#162)
Well then you have to chalk it up to this being an imperfect world, and we are all flawed. Also it's possible that the Iraqi situation could be even worse at this point if not for the helpful actions of certain people, though that's something we'll never know.
That doesn't change my point that all the caring in the world about the Iraq fiasco has led to nothing.
#180. To: ghostdogtxn (#177)
It's called facing reality. "We the people" used to really mean we the people. Now it's propaganda designed to make people think they have a role in the decisions made by the politicians in Washington.
Wow. Deliberate ignorance coupled with monumental apathy and complete irresponsibility.
#181. To: ghostdogtxn (#168)
That title alone hits too close to home...
They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 193_ to 1945 by Milton Mayer is a great resource.
#182. To: Diana, Mister Clean, All (#179)
Clean's the kind of guy who used to be a staunch supporter of the Iraq War. He believed the WMD line and that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Then, when things started going sour, he fell off the bandwagon and now acts cool by pretending "not to care."
#183. To: Diana (#179)
Two great books to read about Iraq are "Imperial Life in the Emerald City" and "Fiasco." All along the way there were smart people who knew when bad decisions were being made. They were ignored. These smart people had great ideas. They were ignored. Every possible mistake that could have been made was made. This is one case where stupidity, incompetence and worse have won. If the smart people inside the system couldn't do anything, there's nothing that I, being completely outside the system, can do and that's why I don't care about it anymore.
Also it's possible that the Iraqi situation could be even worse at this point if not for the helpful actions of certain people, though that's something we'll never know.
#184. To: Ringo Blankenship (#182)
I was not a "staunch" supporter but I was hopeful things would work out.
Clean's the kind of guy who used to be a staunch supporter of the Iraq War.
#185. To: Mister Clean (#184)
Were too.
I was not a "staunch" supporter but I was hopeful things would work out.
#186. To: Mister Clean (#178)
That's not a reason not to care, that's a reason to fight for a Ron Paul administration. Keeping track of the regime evildoers is important to raise the awareness among the average American and to aid in the pursuit of justice once this regime is out of power. Otherwise, you may as well be another psychopath like Barbara Bush, as someone posted to you at the top of this thread. If you are so apathetic, why do you bother posting on this 4um? You are not really apathetic, you have posted a lot of Bush propaganda and disinfo on other threads. For this thread, your comments on Iraq, you have chosen apathy to try and discourage Americans from being pro-active about the course of their government. As I posted before Mister Dirty Traitor, I believe you are a paid shill. Do hurry along to Canada or wherever. Hopefully the Canadians will see you for what you truly are.
because I have no influence over the policy.
Ron Paul for President
#187. To: robin (#186)
There is not a single post from me on this forum or LP that is in support of Bush.
You are not really apathetic, you have posted a lot of Bush propaganda and disinfo on other threads.
#188. To: ghostdogtxn (#168)
I'm going to look up this book, see if it's similar to Goldhagen's. In reality the people knew they were not free. My mother was a kid at the time in Austria when Hitler took over there, they were forced to join Hitler youth groups, spend time making floats and ribbons for parades for Hitler, they were told by their teachers that they must report anyone who speaks ill of the fuhrer, and her mother had to flee the country because she remarried a Jewish man, so my mother lived out the war with her grandparents, and rejoined her mother and step-father after the war and the end of nazis. She came from a wealthy family but at that point no one any longer had any money, food was scarce, and no one dared discuss politics because everyone feared getting in trouble. My step-mother lived in Germany at the time, she was also a kid and her father was forced to join some kind of club, everyone had to join, from little kids to old people. It was a bad time for anyone who did not like groups. Also many people were put in jail for flimsy reasons, and people were often picked on for not working hard enough which at the time was equated with being unpatriotic. They also put a huge emphasis on athletic abilities and looks, skin and hair color and so on, so many people easily felt they could not measure up, were not good enough, and could be thrown in the camps at any time. People tend to think only Jews went to the camps but regular Germans, Poles and Austrians wound up in the camps too. It was not a happy or secure time for most all of the people who lived under that rule, except for those hard core nazis who were really into it, their modern-day counterparts would be the rabid bots.
They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 193_ to 1945 by Milton Mayer
#189. To: Eoghan (#159)
So long as it's just a mini panic. I was nervous there for a second.
The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke
#190. To: Mister Clean (#0) (Edited)
The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong. Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran. Global warming is minor and caused by minor variations in the Sun, peak oil is a myth. I always discount hysteria. And there's a lot of it.
“When I am the weaker, I ask you for my freedom, because that is your principle; but when I am the stronger, I take away your freedom, because that is my principle.”-Louis Veuillot
#191. To: Mister Clean (#183)
they weren't smart people. from the outset they lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. this is the blowback. those of us who were against it from the getgo were smarter than your "smart people within the system." maybe you ought to do some study of unrevisionist history of wars.
Every possible mistake that could have been made was made. This is one case where stupidity, incompetence and worse have won.
#192. To: YertleTurtle (#190)
if/when any one of these occurs, i'll send you some nice roasted crow. of course, none of these things has ever happened to other imperialistic countries in history whose model, incidentally, the US government is emulating. have you ever heard the adages, "the best predictor of future behavior is past" and "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it?"
Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran.
#193. To: Indrid Cold (#127)
Measured against the rising dollar-denominated prices of just about everything else on the planet...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
#194. To: YertleTurtle (#190)
I'd submit we already
have it. Police road blocks and searches are common place, surveillance
cameras litter the landscape, Habeas Corpus went bye-bye, our 1st amendment
right is permitted only in “free speech zones”, government can listen in to
phone conversations and read your email whenever they want w/o court order,
the president refers to the constitution as a piece of toilet paper and people
who distrust government are called KooKs by men who wear Bermuda shorts and
raise pugs. What’s missing, a curfew? Give them one more 911, and that’s next.
or marital law,
#195. To: YertleTurtle (#190)
Yep. The funny thing is, their horrendous track record doesn't phase them. They are quite dedicated to their pessimism.
The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong. Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran.
#196. To: christine (#191)
You're not smarter than Gen. Anthony Zinni, for example. He was on the inside, raising red flags and he was ignored. If you think EVERYBODY in government is the same you're making a mistake.
they weren't smart people. from the outset they lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. this is the blowback. those of us who were against it from the getgo were smarter than your "smart people within the system." maybe you ought to do some study of unrevisionist history of wars.
#197. To: christine (#192)
Typical doom & gloomer mentality. You're just dying to screech "I told you so!"
if/when any one of these occurs, i'll send you some nice roasted crow. of course
#198. To: Mister Clean (#196)
By the time Zinni started raising red flags, he was only sort of on the inside, and he had ceased even to be that months before we attacked Iraq. He retired from the Marine Corps in 2000, and his last connection with the government was apparently his serving as a special envoy to the Middle East in 2002. I suspect he owed that last appointment to Colin Powell.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#199. To: aristeides (#198)
He wasn't the only one. "Fiasco" chronicles several others who raised red flags. Gen. Jay Garner was another well known military man who raised red flags, particularly about the CPA's desire to dissolve the Iraqi military. Incompetence prevailed and continues to prevail. To hell with the morons running the show, Iraq is not my problem.
By the time Zinni started raising red flags, he was only sort of on the inside, and he had ceased even to be that months before we attacked Iraq. He retired from the Marine Corps in 2000, and his last connection with the government was apparently his serving as a special envoy to the Middle East in 2002. I suspect he owed that last appointment to Colin Powell.
#200. To: Diana (#181)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#201. To: Diana (#188)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#202. To: ghostdogtxn (#201)
Here's one of the more powerful parts of the book. Is that entire book one man's opinion of events, or are there any documented objective facts? There are too many HITLER books like Goldhagen's where the main or only purpose is progaganda. We get enough of that in our daily lives. This is one topic where most of the "history" books are basically anti- German propaganda. I still haven't looked it up, but I suspect it's another hitpiece against the German people who also suffered (many died) under this terrible reign, with little factual information on what really happened, but full of exaggerations and falsehoods as seems all too common in these books. That's one area of study where honesty is not valued, in fact if people dig too deeply they can go to jail for it in various countries.
"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."
#203. To: All (#202)
I just looked it up on Amazon and it appears I'm correct. The author was Jewish but didn't want to tell anyone he was, went to Germany and interviewed ten Germans to talk about the nazi regime. From what I read indeed it's another of many "All the Germans were Guilty" books, protraying them all as foaming at the mouth at the thought of killing Jews, when in fact most were worried about getting in trouble with the authorities and finding enough food to feed their families.
#204. To: Diana (#203)
Read the book. That's not how it portrays the Germans at all. It's rather sympathetic towards them. Its chief implication is how the same sort of thing could easily happen here.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
#205. To: Diana (#202)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#206. To: ghostdogtxn, aristeides (#205)
That's the problem, the whole nazi thing has been turned into a "German" event, as if it could not happen to another people, that Germans are somehow predisposed towards the behavior of the nazis. I know there is a book that came out a couple years or so ago that compared the Bush regime to the nazi regime and outlined the parallels, and since then more laws and restrictions have taken place. The German people suffered under Hitler, and many died in the bombings, cities were destroyed and soldiers killed. After the war revenge was taken, especially by the Soviet soldiers, parts of Germany were obliterated along with the people who were still left. That goes to show what can end up happening to a country that engages in bad acts, that invades other countries, tortures and exterminates the people, destroys their infrastructure, steals resources and so on, and I think that is an important part of the whole lesson so that part of the story related to the Germans should not be left out of so many of these books. It's the old story of If You Live By The Sword, You Die By The Sword.
If it is an accusation or hit piece, it is an accusation against the entire human race and our weaknesses.
#207. To: Diana (#202)
I've always wonder if anyone ever dared to write a fact/statistic based book on how the world would look today had Hitler won the war. Perhaps, in this day and time, a computer simulation could give us an unbiased conclusion.
There are too many HITLER books like Goldhagen's where the main or only purpose is progaganda.
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
#208. To: Brian S (#207)
I was thinking earlier how nutty it would be if in the year 2077, there would be books and tv shows (assuming there will still be books and tvs) where a common theme would be Saddam. Like if the History Channel still exists there would be shows like "Saddam: His Inner Circle" and "The Religion of Saddam" or "Saddam: A Study in Evil". That would be very strange because it would be the same amount of time since the events of Hitler. The world would have gone on without Saddam as it did without Hitler, with new conflicts occuring, yet there would be all these books and magazine articles and countless numerous references on a daily basis about Saddam. I got to thinking about that and how bizarre that would be.
#209. To: Diana (#208)
Yep, and Henry Kissinger will be an Episcopalian.
"A functioning police state needs no police." - William S Burroughs
#210. To: Diana (#206)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#211. To: ghostdogtxn (#210)
Diana, my biggest fear is not being bombed or having to fight in a war (although my son having to fight comes close). My biggest fear is being on the wrong side, and one day having to be marched past a United States' concentration camp or killing field. That's why it is important to make these comparisons, because they are so painfully apt. Both points are very valid and just as important. I get disgusted with being bombarded with HITLER on a daily basis, because there have been so many other evil regimes who came to power, instilled terror into their citizens and killed off those among them who did not "fit in". My beef is the only example of this sort of thing has become the nazi regime, when the Soviets and others were equally brutal, also had concentration camps and tortured their citizens. It happened in China, Cambodia, on and on but we always hear about Hitler, as if that was a very unusual occurance, a rare thing. I think it's important for people to realize that same thing can and does happen anywhere, it's not a German thing as so many have been brainwashed to think, it's a human thing and can happen anywhere at any time under the the proper circumstances. I see comparisons in our present administration to Soviet Russia and to Nazi Germany. The Germans did suffer terribly because of what the nazis among them did, their cities were destroyed and many of them killed because of their war of aggression and murder of many, and I agree that could happen here as well.
On another thread you were complaining about people making "Hitler" comparisons or dropping the "H" word into conversation, as if that were a debased or old- hat kind of thing, and then in this post you describe exactly the point that many of us who have drawn parrallels between Hitler's reign and that of our current dick-tater are trying to make.
#212. To: Diana (#211)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#213. To: ghostdogtxn, Diana (#212)
Took the words out of my mouth. Also, along with being very like us, they possessed what to many at the time was near mythic ability to field advanced technologies and nearly indestructable war machines. On almost every major turning point they suffered defeat only after being saturated in bodies and material. I made a comment to someone a while back, I believe it may have been to Diana, that if the US went the way of Germany, you could stick a fork in freedom and peace for as long as it took the ruling elite to go through a decadent cycle and lose their edge. With the technology the elites have here, totalitarianism will be nearly unresistable...
"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."
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