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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Are doom & gloomers ever right?
Source: Mister Clean
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 9, 2007
Author: Mister Clean
Post Date: 2007-08-09 10:09:25 by Mister Clean
Keywords: economic collapse, terrorism, global warming
Views: 1876
Comments: 213

Are doom & gloomers ever right in their numerous and freqent predictions of disaster?

I'm not simply talking about the garden variety doom & gloomers who are constantly predicting a massive economic collapse or continually warning about the evil plans of the New World Order. I also include the al-Qaeda fearmongers who are constantly predicting nuclear Jihad in America. I'm also talking about the global warming alarmists who predict that the east coast of the US will eventually be submerged in a major flood.

These groups of doom & gloomers have different agendas for sure but they're basically the same in their fearmongering and pessimissm. It's as if they want a disaster to happen so they can screech "I told you so!"

Fortunately, these prophets of disaster are as wrong in their predictions as they are negative and pessimistic.

I really wonder why America is full of these types of people.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

WE did this crime.

Speak for yourself.

The way my tax dollars are spent is completely out of my control.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   18:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

We call them psychopaths.

Erm, not to quibble, but I think sociopaths is what we call them.

Same thing, psychopaths was the term used for ages but recently they started calling them sociopaths. It's really like a blind spot, they simply are unable to care about others, but I know you guys know that, it's just something I think about at times.

And of course there is no cure as you can't make a non-functioning area of someone's brain work when for all practical purposes it's dead, there is no activity where there should be.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-09   18:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-09   18:11:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Anyone with any moral sense is outraged over the destruction and genocide in Iraq and the incredible amount of human suffering.

Yes it's horrible and I can't imagine the suffering going on.

But I'm not going to waste my time thinking about it, reading news articles about it or watching TV news reports about it because I have no influence over the policy.

You see, the idea that your opinion really matters to policy makers is one of America's great illusions. You can be as concerned or as outraged as you want, they don't care and they're not listening to you.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   18:13:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That doesn't change my point that all the caring in the world about the Iraq fiasco has led to nothing.

Well then you have to chalk it up to this being an imperfect world, and we are all flawed.

Also it's possible that the Iraqi situation could be even worse at this point if not for the helpful actions of certain people, though that's something we'll never know.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-09   18:14:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wow. Deliberate ignorance coupled with monumental apathy and complete irresponsibility.

It's called facing reality.

"We the people" used to really mean we the people.

Now it's propaganda designed to make people think they have a role in the decisions made by the politicians in Washington.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   18:16:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 193_ to 1945 by Milton Mayer is a great resource.

That title alone hits too close to home...

Diana  posted on  2007-08-09   18:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Clean's the kind of guy who used to be a staunch supporter of the Iraq War. He believed the WMD line and that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Then, when things started going sour, he fell off the bandwagon and now acts cool by pretending "not to care."

Ringo Blankenship  posted on  2007-08-09   18:18:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Also it's possible that the Iraqi situation could be even worse at this point if not for the helpful actions of certain people, though that's something we'll never know.

Two great books to read about Iraq are "Imperial Life in the Emerald City" and "Fiasco."

All along the way there were smart people who knew when bad decisions were being made. They were ignored. These smart people had great ideas. They were ignored.

Every possible mistake that could have been made was made. This is one case where stupidity, incompetence and worse have won.

If the smart people inside the system couldn't do anything, there's nothing that I, being completely outside the system, can do and that's why I don't care about it anymore.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   18:22:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Clean's the kind of guy who used to be a staunch supporter of the Iraq War.

I was not a "staunch" supporter but I was hopeful things would work out.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   18:25:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was not a "staunch" supporter but I was hopeful things would work out.

Were too.

Cynicom  posted on  2007-08-09   18:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

because I have no influence over the policy.

That's not a reason not to care, that's a reason to fight for a Ron Paul administration.

Keeping track of the regime evildoers is important to raise the awareness among the average American and to aid in the pursuit of justice once this regime is out of power.

Otherwise, you may as well be another psychopath like Barbara Bush, as someone posted to you at the top of this thread.

If you are so apathetic, why do you bother posting on this 4um?

You are not really apathetic, you have posted a lot of Bush propaganda and disinfo on other threads. For this thread, your comments on Iraq, you have chosen apathy to try and discourage Americans from being pro-active about the course of their government.

As I posted before Mister Dirty Traitor, I believe you are a paid shill. Do hurry along to Canada or wherever. Hopefully the Canadians will see you for what you truly are.

Ron Paul for President

robin  posted on  2007-08-09   18:31:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You are not really apathetic, you have posted a lot of Bush propaganda and disinfo on other threads.

There is not a single post from me on this forum or LP that is in support of Bush.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   19:15:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They Thought They Were Free, The Germans 193_ to 1945 by Milton Mayer

I'm going to look up this book, see if it's similar to Goldhagen's.

In reality the people knew they were not free. My mother was a kid at the time in Austria when Hitler took over there, they were forced to join Hitler youth groups, spend time making floats and ribbons for parades for Hitler, they were told by their teachers that they must report anyone who speaks ill of the fuhrer, and her mother had to flee the country because she remarried a Jewish man, so my mother lived out the war with her grandparents, and rejoined her mother and step-father after the war and the end of nazis.

She came from a wealthy family but at that point no one any longer had any money, food was scarce, and no one dared discuss politics because everyone feared getting in trouble.

My step-mother lived in Germany at the time, she was also a kid and her father was forced to join some kind of club, everyone had to join, from little kids to old people. It was a bad time for anyone who did not like groups. Also many people were put in jail for flimsy reasons, and people were often picked on for not working hard enough which at the time was equated with being unpatriotic. They also put a huge emphasis on athletic abilities and looks, skin and hair color and so on, so many people easily felt they could not measure up, were not good enough, and could be thrown in the camps at any time. People tend to think only Jews went to the camps but regular Germans, Poles and Austrians wound up in the camps too.

It was not a happy or secure time for most all of the people who lived under that rule, except for those hard core nazis who were really into it, their modern-day counterparts would be the rabid bots.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-09   19:28:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So long as it's just a mini panic. I was nervous there for a second.

The U.S. Constitution is no impediment to our form of government.--PJ O'Rourke

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2007-08-09   19:41:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong. Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran.

Global warming is minor and caused by minor variations in the Sun, peak oil is a myth.

I always discount hysteria. And there's a lot of it.

“When I am the weaker, I ask you for my freedom, because that is your principle; but when I am the stronger, I take away your freedom, because that is my principle.”-Louis Veuillot

YertleTurtle  posted on  2007-08-09   19:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Every possible mistake that could have been made was made. This is one case where stupidity, incompetence and worse have won.

they weren't smart people. from the outset they lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. this is the blowback. those of us who were against it from the getgo were smarter than your "smart people within the system." maybe you ought to do some study of unrevisionist history of wars.

christine  posted on  2007-08-09   20:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran.

if/when any one of these occurs, i'll send you some nice roasted crow. of course, none of these things has ever happened to other imperialistic countries in history whose model, incidentally, the US government is emulating. have you ever heard the adages, "the best predictor of future behavior is past" and "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it?"

christine  posted on  2007-08-09   20:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Measured against the rising dollar-denominated prices of just about everything else on the planet...

"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."

Axenolith  posted on  2007-08-09   20:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

or marital law,

I'd submit we already have it. Police road blocks and searches are common place, surveillance cameras litter the landscape, Habeas Corpus went bye-bye, our 1st amendment right is permitted only in “free speech zones�, government can listen in to phone conversations and read your email whenever they want w/o court order, the president refers to the constitution as a piece of toilet paper and people who distrust government are called KooKs by men who wear Bermuda shorts and raise pugs. What’s missing, a curfew? Give them one more 911, and that’s next.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-08-09   20:19:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The doom and gloomers are almost always wrong. Example: there will be no draft, or marital law, there are no concentration camps just waiting in America, or war on Iran.

Yep.

The funny thing is, their horrendous track record doesn't phase them. They are quite dedicated to their pessimism.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   20:48:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

they weren't smart people. from the outset they lied about the reasons for invading Iraq. this is the blowback. those of us who were against it from the getgo were smarter than your "smart people within the system." maybe you ought to do some study of unrevisionist history of wars.

You're not smarter than Gen. Anthony Zinni, for example.

He was on the inside, raising red flags and he was ignored.

If you think EVERYBODY in government is the same you're making a mistake.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   20:50:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

if/when any one of these occurs, i'll send you some nice roasted crow. of course

Typical doom & gloomer mentality.

You're just dying to screech "I told you so!"

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-09   20:51:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

By the time Zinni started raising red flags, he was only sort of on the inside, and he had ceased even to be that months before we attacked Iraq. He retired from the Marine Corps in 2000, and his last connection with the government was apparently his serving as a special envoy to the Middle East in 2002. I suspect he owed that last appointment to Colin Powell.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-08-09   22:47:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

By the time Zinni started raising red flags, he was only sort of on the inside, and he had ceased even to be that months before we attacked Iraq. He retired from the Marine Corps in 2000, and his last connection with the government was apparently his serving as a special envoy to the Middle East in 2002. I suspect he owed that last appointment to Colin Powell.

He wasn't the only one. "Fiasco" chronicles several others who raised red flags.

Gen. Jay Garner was another well known military man who raised red flags, particularly about the CPA's desire to dissolve the Iraqi military.

Incompetence prevailed and continues to prevail. To hell with the morons running the show, Iraq is not my problem.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-08-10   9:22:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-10   10:03:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-10   11:31:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

Here's one of the more powerful parts of the book.

Is that entire book one man's opinion of events, or are there any documented objective facts?

There are too many HITLER books like Goldhagen's where the main or only purpose is progaganda. We get enough of that in our daily lives.

This is one topic where most of the "history" books are basically anti- German propaganda.

I still haven't looked it up, but I suspect it's another hitpiece against the German people who also suffered (many died) under this terrible reign, with little factual information on what really happened, but full of exaggerations and falsehoods as seems all too common in these books. That's one area of study where honesty is not valued, in fact if people dig too deeply they can go to jail for it in various countries.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-10   14:38:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I just looked it up on Amazon and it appears I'm correct.

The author was Jewish but didn't want to tell anyone he was, went to Germany and interviewed ten Germans to talk about the nazi regime. From what I read indeed it's another of many "All the Germans were Guilty" books, protraying them all as foaming at the mouth at the thought of killing Jews, when in fact most were worried about getting in trouble with the authorities and finding enough food to feed their families.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-10   14:51:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Read the book. That's not how it portrays the Germans at all. It's rather sympathetic towards them. Its chief implication is how the same sort of thing could easily happen here.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-08-10   15:05:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-10   18:01:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If it is an accusation or hit piece, it is an accusation against the entire human race and our weaknesses.

That's the problem, the whole nazi thing has been turned into a "German" event, as if it could not happen to another people, that Germans are somehow predisposed towards the behavior of the nazis.

I know there is a book that came out a couple years or so ago that compared the Bush regime to the nazi regime and outlined the parallels, and since then more laws and restrictions have taken place.

The German people suffered under Hitler, and many died in the bombings, cities were destroyed and soldiers killed. After the war revenge was taken, especially by the Soviet soldiers, parts of Germany were obliterated along with the people who were still left.

That goes to show what can end up happening to a country that engages in bad acts, that invades other countries, tortures and exterminates the people, destroys their infrastructure, steals resources and so on, and I think that is an important part of the whole lesson so that part of the story related to the Germans should not be left out of so many of these books.

It's the old story of If You Live By The Sword, You Die By The Sword.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-10   21:56:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There are too many HITLER books like Goldhagen's where the main or only purpose is progaganda.

I've always wonder if anyone ever dared to write a fact/statistic based book on how the world would look today had Hitler won the war.

Perhaps, in this day and time, a computer simulation could give us an unbiased conclusion.

Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!

Brian S  posted on  2007-08-10   22:04:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was thinking earlier how nutty it would be if in the year 2077, there would be books and tv shows (assuming there will still be books and tvs) where a common theme would be Saddam.

Like if the History Channel still exists there would be shows like "Saddam: His Inner Circle" and "The Religion of Saddam" or "Saddam: A Study in Evil".

That would be very strange because it would be the same amount of time since the events of Hitler.

The world would have gone on without Saddam as it did without Hitler, with new conflicts occuring, yet there would be all these books and magazine articles and countless numerous references on a daily basis about Saddam.

I got to thinking about that and how bizarre that would be.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-10   22:14:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Yep, and Henry Kissinger will be an Episcopalian.

"A functioning police state needs no police." - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2007-08-10   22:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-13   10:30:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

On another thread you were complaining about people making "Hitler" comparisons or dropping the "H" word into conversation, as if that were a debased or old- hat kind of thing, and then in this post you describe exactly the point that many of us who have drawn parrallels between Hitler's reign and that of our current dick-tater are trying to make.

Diana, my biggest fear is not being bombed or having to fight in a war (although my son having to fight comes close). My biggest fear is being on the wrong side, and one day having to be marched past a United States' concentration camp or killing field. That's why it is important to make these comparisons, because they are so painfully apt.

Both points are very valid and just as important.

I get disgusted with being bombarded with HITLER on a daily basis, because there have been so many other evil regimes who came to power, instilled terror into their citizens and killed off those among them who did not "fit in".

My beef is the only example of this sort of thing has become the nazi regime, when the Soviets and others were equally brutal, also had concentration camps and tortured their citizens. It happened in China, Cambodia, on and on but we always hear about Hitler, as if that was a very unusual occurance, a rare thing.

I think it's important for people to realize that same thing can and does happen anywhere, it's not a German thing as so many have been brainwashed to think, it's a human thing and can happen anywhere at any time under the the proper circumstances.

I see comparisons in our present administration to Soviet Russia and to Nazi Germany. The Germans did suffer terribly because of what the nazis among them did, their cities were destroyed and many of them killed because of their war of aggression and murder of many, and I agree that could happen here as well.

Diana  posted on  2007-08-13   22:05:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-08-14   10:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Took the words out of my mouth. Also, along with being very like us, they possessed what to many at the time was near mythic ability to field advanced technologies and nearly indestructable war machines. On almost every major turning point they suffered defeat only after being saturated in bodies and material.

I made a comment to someone a while back, I believe it may have been to Diana, that if the US went the way of Germany, you could stick a fork in freedom and peace for as long as it took the ruling elite to go through a decadent cycle and lose their edge. With the technology the elites have here, totalitarianism will be nearly unresistable...

"I might have to go do something less stressfull, like core pavement on a busy freeway, at night..."

Axenolith  posted on  2007-08-17   0:57:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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