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Science/Tech
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Title: Fossil Reanalysis Pushes Back Origin of Homo sapiens
Source: sciam
URL Source: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?ch ... DFE-C0B7-1213-80B783414B7F0000
Published: Feb 17, 2005
Author: unlisted
Post Date: 2005-02-17 05:49:36 by 2Trievers
Keywords: Reanalysis, sapiens, Fossil
Views: 1676
Comments: 185

A new analysis of human remains first discovered in 1967 suggests that they are in fact much older than previously believed. The results, published today in the journal Nature, push back the emergence of our species by nearly 35,000 years.

Ian McDougall of the Australian National University in Canberra and his colleagues worked with two well-known fossil finds known as Omo I and Omo II, which were recovered from Ethiopia's Kibish Formation by Richard Leakey. The remains include two partial skulls as well as arm, leg, foot and pelvis bones for Omo I. "Anthropologists said they looked very different in their evolutionary status," remarks study co-author Frank Brown of the University of Utah. "Omo I appeared to be essentially modern Homo sapiens and Omo II appeared to be more primitive." At the time, the bones were dated to 130,000 years ago, based on radioactive decay of uranium and thorium from oyster shells found nearby. This time the scientists returned to the southern Ethiopian site and identified the resting places of both individuals. They also unearthed another part of a femur bone for Omo I that fits together with the original remains.

The researchers then analyzed the volcanic ash layers above and below the river sediment that contained the fossils using argon dating. They determined that the rock just below the fossils dated to 196,000 years ago. Because the layers of the Kibish Formation formed quickly during wet seasons that inundated the area with organic matter, the team posits that the bones are only slightly younger than this underlying layer. In addition, a layer of ash more than 150 feet above the burial sites dates to 104,000 years old, putting a limit on their age. Using other evidence, which drained from the Nile and the Omo rivers onto the Mediterranean seafloor, the researchers attest that the Omo fossils are most likely no younger than 190,000 years old.

Previously the oldest known traces of our species were fossils from Herto, Ethiopia, that date to about 160,000 years ago. The older age of the Omo remains is concordant with dates suggested by genetic studies for the origin of our species, says study co-author John Fleagle of Stony Brook University. He adds that "as modern human anatomy is documented at earlier and earlier sites, it becomes evident that there was a great time gap between the appearance of the modern skeleton and 'modern' behavior."

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#1. To: 2Trievers (#0)

Would love to see some of the creationist types on LP "respond" to this new information.

Wait...no, I wouldn't

My favorite explanation so far came at a church service I attended where you could "ask the pastor anything". Someone asked about the apparent difference between the measured age of the universe and the actual Creation timeline.

Answer: God created it already "old."

Politicians could learn a lot from preachers on the subject of spin.

Created it old, He did. Yup.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   6:22:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Samuel Gray (#1)

Answer: God created it already "old."

I'll buy that. Yeppers.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   8:59:49 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: 2Trievers (#2)

Killer abs for an old guy, but there has been some "shrinkage."

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   9:24:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Samuel Gray (#3)

Is that because of evolution or creation???

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   9:29:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: 2Trievers (#4)

The temperature in the Sistine Chapel was chilly that day?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   9:31:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: 2Trievers, Samuel Gray (#2)

"The Chapel was built between 1477 and 1481 by Pope Sixtus IV. From 1480 to 1483 the the walls were decorated with frescoes by famous artists of Renaissance, such as Botticelli, Perugino, Ghirlandaio. After twenty years, in 1508 Julius II commissioned Michelangelo to decorate the ceiling. Today, after the restoration, Michelangelo’s original colours of the “Last Judgement” sparkle gloriously."

robin  posted on  2005-02-17   10:17:50 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: robin (#6)

Pope Julius: "Michelangelo, when will you be finished?"

Michelangelo: "When I am done."

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   10:39:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Samuel Gray (#1)

Answer: God created it already "old."

I think that the only time I ever "won" one of these arguments was when I replied to a propostion like the one above by observing that by that token, God could have created the world yesterday, or five minutes ago for that matter, and we would never know.

That kind of stopped my friend in his tracks. It really seemed to trouble him.

randge  posted on  2005-02-17   11:32:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: randge (#8)

This little "ask the pastor anything" session was very instructive, not from the standpoint of the quality of information he disseminated, but from the fact that some people want to believe anything SO badly that they'll set aside logic, common sense, etc, in an effort to embrace their "faith."

The "Dinosaurs on the Ark" discussion itself was priceless.

I was nearly denounced as a heretic for asking which of the hundreds of species of hummingbirds were selected for inclusion on the ark, what'd they do with the insects, etc.

I think I know why it requires a child-like faith to believe. Beyond that, one's questioning nature renders the whole religion thing moot (or it does to me).

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   11:39:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Samuel Gray (#5)

seriously laughing...

christine  posted on  2005-02-17   11:58:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Samuel Gray (#1)

Politicians could learn a lot from preachers on the subject of spin.

funny post (again)

christine  posted on  2005-02-17   12:01:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: christine (#11)

You know me, I love sacred cow burgers. Rare, with all the fixins, and an ice cold longneck.

Has spring "arrove" down there yet? It was 77 degrees here Tuesday.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   12:05:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Samuel Gray, 2Trievers (#1)

Would love to see some of the creationist types on LP "respond" to this new information.

Ok, fine. I believe in the creation viewpoint.

What exactly is in this article that is supposed to "shake my world?"

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   13:20:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Samuel Gray, 2Trievers (#13)

I have to leave for awhile, but I'll be back later.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   13:34:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Don (#13)

What exactly is in this article that is supposed to "shake my world?"

Your words, not mine.

I've found that worlds built on faith aren't open to much shaking, static, rather than dynamic, but if you want, we can start with the arithmetic.

Creationism in general holds that God (re)created the earth and all its lifeforms in six literal 24 hour days, roughly 6,000 years ago. Data in this article says roughly 190,000 years for these human remains, minus your 6,000, gives 184,000 years we gotta explain away somehow.

Was he just "beta-testing" the species til he got to Adam and Eve?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   14:13:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: 2Trievers (#0)

Why can't creationists simply conclude that evolution in itself is a creation of God (but not for the purpose of deceiving the curious, that's just BS)? "Intelligent Design"? Well Natural Selection is certainly sane and common-sensical when you compare it to the repeated failed attemps of government policies and Social Darwinists.

But look at it this way. If it's true that Mankind was "made in the image of God", one of the most creative impulses thruought history has been the invention of labor-saving devices. Natural Selection and Evolution are the ultimate labor-saving devices if you happen to be God. Put in a reliable power source (so no problems of "entropy" of a closed system), the Sun, and you're set to go.

Whoever in the religious communty who thought it was necessary to devote their energies to such a non-issue is nothing but an asshole. So it doesn't quite jive with scriptural dogma. BFD, get over it.

I can't hardly wait for these folks to start repudiating Copernicus.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-17   14:49:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Samuel Gray (#15)

How long is a day? I wasn't aware that our concept of time is quite that old.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:06:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Samuel Gray (#15)

Was he just "beta-testing" the species til he got to Adam and Eve?

You do know that animals were created before man, right?

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:07:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: PnbC (#16)

Whoever in the religious communty who thought it was necessary to devote their energies to such a non-issue is nothing but an asshole.

If this thing is such a non-issue, what are the seculists so anxious to prove their theory of "Ma,look, our cousin, the apeman, has come to dinner?" Are these people also "assholes?"

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:11:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Don (#18)

Homo sapiens = you, Don. Not an "animal" in testing. The 190,000 year old fossils were HUMAN remains. "Adam's" great grandfather times 1000.

I'm quoting from the Creationist playbook. They generally believe 6 literal 24 hour days for God to do all this.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   16:26:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Samuel Gray (#20)

Generally? I am a creationist, and I have no problems with the "day" mentioned in Genesis as being much longer than 24 hours.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:29:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Don (#21)

It'd have to be a few hundred million years long to match everything up in the timeline.

You know all this.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   16:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Don (#19)

The debate has no relevance to the teachings of Christianity. Belief in Creationism doesn't make one any better or worse a person or Christian than someone who doesn't. But it can reflect badly on pulpit preachers and the Pat Robertsons, who think that so many Sunday sermons need to focus on that (real spiritual of them there).

It's a waste of your precious time on Earth to even bother with it. Pity if you feel it's that important.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-17   16:31:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Don (#19)

If this thing is such a non-issue, what are the seculists so anxious to prove their theory of "Ma,look, our cousin, the apeman, has come to dinner?" Are these people also "assholes?"

If I had actually heard of such a secularist saying something so stupid, I would have to agree. No one likes someone who is "in-your-face" even when it's something you might actually agree with.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-17   16:35:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Samuel Gray (#22)

The time element doesn't bother me one way or another. We don't know how long the "day" was. The "day" is a convenient measurement of time. The Bible states that to the Lord, a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. That means to me that time is not important in divine thinking. A divine being would have no concept of time.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:36:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: All, Don (#24)

I would have to agree

... that they are assholes, that is.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-17   16:37:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: PnbC (#23)

Pity if you feel it's that important.

Then, you feel that the creation viewpoint is not that important and it can be taught as well as the evolution theory?

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:38:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Don (#25)

This is why I don't talk about these issues much. When one runs up against a wall of faith, it is virtually impenetrable.

Just look at the thousand plus reply "crevo" threads at FR, and the vitriol expended on both sides.

I'd rather just be civil and say "you believe, I'll disbelieve, and we'll see what washes out in the afterlife, should there be one."

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   16:39:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: PnbC (#24)

Well, don't the evolutionists feel that mankind dragged himself out the primordial slime to the trees, i.e. the apes, and then down out of the trees to whatever the heck we are today?

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:39:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Samuel Gray (#28)

When one runs up against a wall of faith, it is virtually impenetrable.

Of course, you do know that the evolutionist theory is built on the same thing, right? It takes a lot of faith to believe that the origin of mankind is something that dragged himself out of the ocean to become modern-day man.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:41:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Samuel Gray (#28)

I'd rather just be civil and say "you believe, I'll disbelieve, and we'll see what washes out in the afterlife, should there be one."

No one is being uncivil. We are discussing evolution vs creation.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:43:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Don (#30)

Evolution has its own sets of problems, not the least of which is the same timeline problems that creationism has.

With physicists dating the age of the known universe, suddenly the evolutionists find themselves up against a huge timeline problem of their own, ie, how all these complex, interlocking systems could have evolved within the time that they now know they had to get it done.

Both biologists and Christians have been known to take extraordinary leaps of faith and fancy not supported in any way by the facts on record. ;)

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-17   16:46:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Samuel Gray (#32)

not supported in any way by the facts on record. ;)

And, of course, that is faith enters the picture. But, I have heard the idea that it takes less faith to believe that a divine being, God, created this thing. I have to agree.

Don  posted on  2005-02-17   16:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Don (#13)

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   22:13:08 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Samuel Gray (#9)

I think I know why it requires a child-like faith to believe. Beyond that, one's questioning nature renders the whole religion thing moot (or it does to me).

Now chocolate cake without chocolate frosting. That's heresy.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   22:16:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: 2Trievers (#35)

Nice one 2Trievers, Thanks.

tom007  posted on  2005-02-17   22:57:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: tom007, Cagey (#36)

Honest to pete ... someone sent me this wind-up yesterday ... NUN-ZILLA!!

The spark of religion
Say your prayers! No one is safe from the wrath of Nunzilla! This fire-breathing wind-up sister trudges straight out of a Catholic-school student's nightmare like a determined disciplinary force, with green eyes blazing and sparks flying from her mouth. Wearing the traditional black and white habit and carrying a Bible in one hand and a ruler in the other, this holy terror will have you owning up to transgressions from as far back as birth. 2" tall and made of hard plastic, packaged in a custom cathedral-style box.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-17   23:11:35 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: randge (#8)

Nothing upsets them more then popping that at them, they barely understand science, trying to actually get them to understand philosophy is just a little much...LOL

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-17   23:43:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: 2Trievers (#37)

Say your prayers! No one is safe from the wrath of Nunzilla!

isin't she wearing a Burka?

I say nuke her for the sake of freedom.

Flintlock  posted on  2005-02-17   23:50:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Don (#33)

It takes no faith at all to understand that evolution is the best scientific explanation of how the Human species and the others species of the world got to be what they are today.

Sure, it has some problems, but it is still the best SCIENTIFIC explanation there is.

It takes a HUGE amount of faith to believe in creationism, because the scientific evidence around us, shows us that it is complete and utter nonsense.

It is a great morality tale, it has a wonderful message, but it was NEVER meant to be taken literally, just as a lot of things in the bible were NEVER meant to be taken literally.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-17   23:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Flintlock (#39)

LOL, or at least get out a sledgehammer.....

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-17   23:50:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Aric2000 (#41)

at least get out a sledgehammer.....

There'll be no rapture for you!

Flintlock  posted on  2005-02-17   23:54:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Flintlock (#42)

I have a rapture experience whenever I look at my kids, that's all I need....

This stuff about flying up to heaven gives me the willies, I'm afraid of heights, so leave me out of it....LOL

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-18   0:04:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Don (#27)

Open up a school and teach whatever you want. However, don't be surprised if many employers decline to hire people taught at these schools. I might prefer that public schools not teach creationism, but at this point, the level of misinformation being spoon-fed to our kids in areas such as history and civics is so bad that in a few more years it won't really matter anymore one way or the other.

Yes, let them both be taught together. It won't really matter so long as one side isn't actively trying to suppress the other. Disclaimers such as "Evolution is only a theory" is fine as long as Creationism is aknowleged as ALSO being just a theory.

America is heading into the dark ages anyways. Go for the gusto.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-18   0:48:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: PnbC (#44)

America is heading into the dark ages anyways.

Lately, I've been thinking the same thing; somebody should start a thread on the topic.

Flintlock  posted on  2005-02-18   1:01:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: PnbC (#44)

Disclaimers such as "Evolution is only a theory" is fine as long as Creationism is aknowleged as ALSO being just a theory.

Nope, not on my watch....

First off ANY scientific theory is "only" a theory, second of all, Creationism is NOT a theory, it is religion, a religious myth at that.

There is NOTHING at all scientific about creationism, therefore, it cannot be considered a "theory".

Yes, the schools are shot to hell, that is why I don't send my kids to them...

This country is also shot to hell, another reason why I don't send my kids to public schools.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-18   1:05:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Aric2000 (#46)

A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
~~ Max Planck

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-18   4:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Flintlock (#39)

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-18   4:24:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Aric2000 (#40)

If this is the best that science can come up with, science has a lot to be deserved. Nonsense is nonsense and a theory that mankind crawled out of the ocean and evolved into mankind is nonsense.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   9:03:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: 2Trievers (#47)

but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.

Translation: Get rid of the smart people and indoctrinate the kids.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   9:04:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: PnbC (#44)

Public schools are just that. They are public. And, I imagine that a lot of the tax monies extorted from me go into those public schools. If you think that public schools should not teach creationism, that knife cuts both ways. There are always two sides to an issue.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   9:06:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Flintlock (#39)

isin't she wearing a Burka?

I say nuke her for the sake of freedom.

Wait! Hold fire! Isn't that Hillary in her thong? We couldn't do that!!

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   9:08:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: 2Trievers (#47)

My favorite quote of all time, no wonder I couldn't find it, I thought it was Louis de Broglie...

He was dead-on with it.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   9:24:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Don (#50)

The smart people were the ones that "got" with the program when the theory was still new, and everyone was laughing at them.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   9:25:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Samuel Gray (#54)

I guess it all depends upon your definition of smart.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   9:28:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Don (#50)

Still here trying to figure out the evolution of Sunday Man ... and NFL Man ... Remote Man ................

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-18   9:45:39 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Don (#55)

definition of smart.

That definition would start by looking at established facts and drawing reasoned conclusions, rather than from a 2,000 year old book of stories whose very "genesis" (what was included, what was omitted), draws the whole issue of its veracity into question.

Just because a story has been believed for 1900+ years doesn't make it true, just popular.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   9:53:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: 2Trievers (#56)

That pic is a pretty good beginning for NFL man. Man, that stuff is so boring.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   10:00:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Samuel Gray (#57)

Reasoned conclusion? Ok, a reasoned conclusion is that modern man began as slime in the ocean and over many millions of years became what he is today. Talk about a self-made man. The whole trick is to somehow convince people that slime became an ape and ape became man. The thing is only some guy's theory that many other people want to follow. The thing may be entertaining but so are many other science fiction shows.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   10:03:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Don (#51)

I'm for the marketplace deciding (to hell with public schools). I doubt you will find too many people trusting microbiologists/virologists who don't aknowledge natural selection though. Kinda applies itself to laboratory research.

Creationism only tries to debunk scientific theory. I don't see evidence that it has predictable results in the lab or offers anything of substance, or that it can stand on its own merits without trying to debunk the other as Natural Selection can.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-18   10:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: PnbC (#23)

The debate has no relevance to the teachings of Christianity. Belief in Creationism doesn't make one any better or worse a person or Christian than someone who doesn't.

ROFL!!

TomBishop  posted on  2005-02-18   10:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Aric2000 (#46)

In using the term "theory" I'm being charitable, not necessarily accurate. I mean if Hicksville, MO public schools want to slap disclaimers on their biology textbooks then they should slap a similar disclaimer on their creationism textbooks (not that I've heard of any). In fact, all public schools should have a disclaimer slapped on their walls stating that attendance is mandatory under law, and does not necessarily the usefulness of the content of the material taught herein.

In fact, if you don't earn enough money to send your kids to private school, then you shouldn't have kids of your own, period. The message of public schools is: "Have all the kids you want. We (The State) will see to their education." Something for everyone to ponder.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-18   10:40:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: PnbC (#62)

In fact, all public schools should have a disclaimer slapped on their walls stating that attendance is mandatory under law, and does not necessarily the usefulness of the content of the material taught herein.

In fact, if you don't earn enough money to send your kids to private school, then you shouldn't have kids of your own, period. The message of public schools is: "Have all the kids you want. We (The State) will see to their education." Something for everyone to ponder.

Now, that's something I can agree with. Why people focus so hard on each other's differences, I have no idea...there's so much that so many agree on, but ignore because of a few differences.

TomBishop  posted on  2005-02-18   10:47:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Don (#49)

If this is the best that science can come up with, science has a lot to be deserved. Nonsense is nonsense and a theory that mankind crawled out of the ocean and evolved into mankind is nonsense.

Well, if this is your idea of evolution, no wonder you believe in creationism.

Evolution is a bit more complicated then that, then again, you really don't care to learn about REAL evolution, because then it might call your faith into question, which would bring your entire world down upon your head.

I feel bad for people that NEED religion in order to give their life purpose. I feel bad for people that have a need to tear down science in order to make their religion somehow stand up and be real.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-18   10:59:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Aric2000, All (#64)

Eric, for starters, how about stopping to be a condescending prick?

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   13:11:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: 2Trievers, Zipporah (#48)

Where did you find that? That was a magnet at the Whole Foods Grocery. I told Zipporah about it several weeks ago, but could only describe it. I love it.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-02-18   13:24:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: 2Trievers (#56)

That's the funniest thing I've seen in about 18 months.

crack monkey  posted on  2005-02-18   13:26:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: crack monkey (#66)

you know what the really sad part of what is happening w/ the so-called Christian community and being in bed politically with the RNC? It's that what the are doing and what they say absolutely is a contradicition of what scripture says.. and nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus nor His teachings. As Jesus said in Matthew:

21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?' 23 Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'

24 "Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain fell, the rivers rose, and the winds blew and pounded that house. Yet it didn't collapse, because its foundation was on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn't act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!"

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-18   13:39:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: PnbC (#60)

I think that the Bible predates the scientific debunking idea, so creationism could hardly try to debunk science. It is the other way around.

As for the scientific theory thing, scientific theory about this and that is constantly debunked by other findings within the field of science. Not much of what science prescribes as fact is written on stone. New findings are constantly being made and making obsolete what was once accepted as scientific fact.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   13:44:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Don (#69)

Most things aren't meant to be "written in stone". The constitution is one exception. As for the Bible, well, if you've followed the history of its official edits/edicts and translations then you would realize it's too late to apply the "written in stone" label to it.

PnbC  posted on  2005-02-18   13:58:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: PnbC (#70)

If you are talking about the Catholic supplements to the bible, I agree with you. But, the bible was written in the language of its day, and there are accurate enough translations available.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:04:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: PnbC (#70)

Yet it's treated as if it IS written in stone. That whole infallible word of God ploy that makes it ironclad and above reproach. Truth is, no one knows who's edited what in that thing, or what agenda they had doing it. They just invoke "God's Will" and say that nothing is in there that He didn't "miracle" in there. Not buying it for a second, thanks.

What about the Gnostic Gospels, the Apocrypha, etc, books that didn't make the editorial cut?

As I said yesterday, the BEST politican has got nothing on the least preacher when it comes to spin. Rumplestiltskin's task of spinning flax into gold is child's play compared to the pastors who routinely weave fables into faith using a book 90 percent of them don't have the faintest understanding of in the first place.

The people who trash science always come out with that "new advancements are changing scientific theories every day, nothing is written in stone" but they without fail turn back to the (KJV) version of the bible and say the exact opposite, that it's unchanging and flawless.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   14:06:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Samuel Gray (#72)

hey without fail turn back to the (KJV) version of the bible and say the exact opposite, that it's unchanging and flawless.

Setting up straw dogs is recognized in logic as a fallacy.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:09:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Don (#73)

No moreso than your simplistic and self serving characterization of the theory of evolution a few posts back.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   14:11:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Samuel Gray (#74)

Which post?

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:12:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Don (#75)

#59 in your hymnals.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   14:16:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Samuel Gray (#76)

Are you saying that Post 59 is not a summation of the theory of evolution?

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Don (#77)

Are you saying that Post 59 is not a summation of the theory of evolution?

What I'd said earlier was that it was a simplistic and self serving summation.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   14:26:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Samuel Gray (#78)

But, it is a truthful summation, right?

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:29:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Don (#79)

truthful summation

I'm sure you'd consider it thus. I do not.

Then again, "let there be light" seems a bit oversimplified to me.

Did He mean let it be a particle, or a wave, or did the duality just happen that way?

For matters of faith, the *ahem* devil is in the details.

Then, I suppose you may say that about evolution too, but in that case there is a bit more bone upon which to hang flesh.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   14:38:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Samuel Gray (#80)

You keep getting hung up on religion here. Lets just keep religion out of the picture if it offends you.

I'm sure you'd consider it thus looks as though you are skipping around the mayberry bush. It is truthful or it is not. Which one is it? If you want a serious discussion on the matter, lets have serious answers.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   14:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Don (#81)

Asked and answered. I said your summation was not truthful.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-18   15:17:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Don (#58)

You have a 4mail ...

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-18   16:12:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Don (#81)

Lets just keep religion out of the picture if it offends you.

To a growing number of Americans, Christianity is like strong disinfectant on a wound...it's burns a lot.

TomBishop  posted on  2005-02-18   16:19:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: crack monkey (#66)

I can't find the link right now ... maybe "Cheesy Jesus"? If I run across it again, I'll let you know.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-18   16:23:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: TomBishop (#84)

Well, there are many "Christians" who support Bush. The thing is these supporters have little to do with Christianity as it was taught by its namesake.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   18:36:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: 2Trievers (#83)

I don't see mail.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   18:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Samuel Gray (#82)

Ok, then evolutionists do not preach their brand of religion stating the things that I said. Right.

Don  posted on  2005-02-18   18:38:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Don (#87)

I'll try again ........

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   0:41:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Don (#65)

Sorry, I can't help it when it comes to upstart Christian Creationists that know nothing about evolution but spout about how it isn't science.

Total and complete nonsense, so I speak to you as if you are a child, because you are about as ignorant as one...

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   0:45:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Don (#69)

As for the scientific theory thing, scientific theory about this and that is constantly debunked by other findings within the field of science. Not much of what science prescribes as fact is written on stone. New findings are constantly being made and making obsolete what was once accepted as scientific fact.

Very good statement, but what does that mean to you Don?

DOes that mean that science means nothing because it can be changed?

Sorry, WRONG answer......

You myths are in a written book, and match up with THOUSANDS of other myths of thousands of other religions. Creation myths are a dime a dozen, just because your bible states one, does not make it the harbinger of the total true one. Just as the flood myth has stories that come very close to it as well.

I can tell you exactly where you creation myth came from, what region of the world, and what religion it came from, I can also tell you where your flood myth came from, what region, when, and from what religion it came from.

THe old testament myths are a conglomeration of so many religions that it is insane, none of it's myths are original in any way shape or form.

Study the HISTORY of the bible, it is fascinating reading, then again, it just might crush your faith to such a point your life won't be worth living, so never mind.

And Yes, I am a total prick when it comes to self rightseous christians who claim to have the one and only truth, because it is so far from the ACTUAL historical truth, that it isn't even worth discussing.

Respect those that search for the truth, doubt those that claim they have found it.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   0:57:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Aric2000 (#90)

Total and complete nonsense, so I speak to you as if you are a child, because you are about as ignorant as one...

At least you know what you are. Take a hike.

Don  posted on  2005-02-19   2:22:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Don (#92)

Total and complete nonsense, so I speak to you as if you are a child, because you are about as ignorant as one...

At least you know what you are. Take a hike.

Ahh, poor baby, the truth hurts doesn't it? WAAAAHHHHH....

ROFLMAO!!

Poor wittle Cweationist, did I hut yo wittle feewings?.....

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   3:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Aric2000 (#93)

Oh yeah, the board can really tell you've done well in your rejection of the Bible...flawless character you have, lots of empathy and self-control. *sarcasm* About as impressive as a baby crapping his diapers.

TomBishop  posted on  2005-02-19   7:42:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Aric2000, Don (#93)

When you battle faith , Aric, a system of reasoning which is not founded on pragmatics, the challenges you suggest may never be received in the same light as they are offered, especially in the tone you offered Don. Can it be that science and logic are also a form of religion .........faith in mans perception of the universe by the means of experiment and logic. And by golly, it comes from the same place. Don is a worthy opponent and deserves respect. At least he has mine.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   8:34:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: All (#95)

I found this fun science v religion piece ...

"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't.

[No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella."

"Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.

"From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian.

"Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? "

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them? "

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"

Pause.

"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,

"Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you? "

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?"

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.

Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies.

"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare.

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion.

Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.

The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?" The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter.

The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos.

The Christian sits.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   8:39:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: 2Trievers (#96)

BRAVO! BRAVO!!!

ENCORE!! ENCORE!!

I bow humbly before your resoning skills, m'lady!

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   8:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Aric2000 (#90)

What is it with you evo's? Is it possible in your mind that BOTH theories exist? That God created the heavens and the earth and somwhere along the way creatures evolved? I simply cannot understand the hatred - or what comes acrossed as hatred.

As far as I am concerned, evolution may be a "science", but if it is, it was Gods will. Just as it is God's will that people have free will to believe as they choose.

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   9:05:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#97)

Hehehe ... it's all a fun discussion ... but I see no reason to get all twiterpated about it ... life it too fun ... and my motto:

If you have any doubt about it youre correct.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   9:22:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: 2Trievers (#99)

twiterpated

huh??? that sounds DIRTY!

I wasn't twiterpated - just don't understand the "animosity" between the camps. I mean, who says that both camps are not correct?

My motto is now "KOKO HAPPY SEE MILK BAGS FUN"

hehehhee

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   9:29:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#100)

Hey CAPPS are ya still up or did ya get up early today?

Matthew 7:6

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   9:33:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Zipporah (#101)

Hey CAPPS are ya still up or did ya get up early today?

Matthew 7:6

Got back up at 4, went back to bed at 6, got up again at 7.

Timothy 2;13

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   9:34:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: CAPPSMADNESS, Samuel Gray (#100)

It's words ..we always get hung up on the "words" ... especially the long complicated ones ...

This is supposedly the longest word ... but it is chemistry and they don't use words...

methionylglutaminylarginyltyrosylglutamylserylleucylphenylalanyla lanylglutaminylleucyllysylglutamylarginyllysylglutamylglycylalany lphenylalanylvalylprolylphenylalanylvalylthreonylleucylglycylaspa rtylprolylglycylisoleucylglutamylglutaminylserylleucyllysylisoleu cylaspartylthreonylleucylisoleucylglutamylalanylglycylalanylaspar tylalanylleucylglutamylleucylglycylisoleucylprolylphenylalanylser ylaspartylprolylleucylalanylaspartylglycylprolylthreonyliso leucylglutaminylaspfraginylalanylthreonylleucylarginylalanylpheny lalanylalanylalanylglycylvalylthreonylprolylalanylglutaminylcyste inylphenylalanylglutamylmethionylleucylalanylleucylisoleucylargin ylglutaminyllysylhistidylprolylthreonylisoleucylprolylisoleucylgl ycylleucylleucylmethionyltyrosylalanylasparaginylleucylvalylpheny lalanylasparaginyllysylglycylisoleucylaspartylglutamylphenylalany ltyrosylalanylglutaminylcysteinylglutamyllysylvalylglycylva lylaspartylserylvalylleucylvalylalanylaspartylvalylprolylvalylglu taminylglutamylserylalanylprolylphenylalanylarginylglutaminylalan ylalanylleucylarginylhistidylasparaginylvalylalanylprolylisoleucy lphenylalanylisoleucylcysteinylprolylprolylaspartylalanylaspartyl aspartylaspartylleucylleucylarginylglutaminylisoleucylalanylseryl tyrosylglycylarginylglycyltyrosylthreonyltyrosylleucylleucylseryl arginylalanylglycylvalylthreonylglycylalanylglutamylasparag inylarginylalanylalanylleucylprolylleucylasparaginylhistidylleucy lvalylalanyllysylleucyllysylglutamyltyrosylasparaginylalanylalany lprolylprolylleucylglutaminylglycylphenylalanylglycylisoleucylser ylalanylprolylaspartylglutaminylvalyllysylalanylalanylisoleucylas partylalanylglycylalanylalanylglycylalanylisoleucylserylglycylser ylalanylisoleucylvalyllysylisoleucylisoleucylglutamylglutaminylhi stidylasparaginylisoleucylglutamylprolylglutamyllysylmethio nylleucylalanylalanylleucyllysylvalylphenylalanylvalylglutaminylp rolylmethion yllysylalanylalanylthreonylarginylserine.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   9:41:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: 2Trievers (#103)

I thought the longest word was YaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYad daYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYadda addaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYad daYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYadda addaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYad daYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaY addaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYadd aYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaa ddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYadd aYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaa ddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYaddaaddaYaddaYadda?

But hey - what do I know???

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   9:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#104)

........ But hey - what do I know???

'Tis best to admit to "nothing" ... that way you can't be pinned down ... being blonde helps too.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   10:04:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: 2Trievers (#105)

'Tis best to admit to "nothing" ... that way you can't be pinned down ... being blonde helps too.

I ain't blonde, but I am HEAVILY MEDICATED, does that count???

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   10:06:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: 2Trievers (#96)

So...God must exist because we only notice when he's NOT around?

No wonder I can't fathom Christians.

If the Creation is flawed, which even the Bible says it must be, then so must the Creator, IMO. That passive statement "sin entered the world" places no blame, really, but God created the agent of sin, (I'm speaking in the language of Christian myth now) Lucifer himself,

If He knew all things before he "breathed" this place into existence, he can't blame all the mistakes on our exercising of free will.

Even a third rate programmer debugs his stuff before compiling it.

He made the mess, He can clean it up.

Sorry, I still don't buy it, the nice story notwithstanding. Interesting read, though, despite the theo-philosophical sleight of hand. :)

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   10:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Samuel Gray (#107)

Interesting read, though, despite the theo-philosophical sleight of hand. :)

Which is why I find Eastern thought so interesting ... besides if you meet Buddha along the path you get to kill him ... put me somewhere beween *Henry Miller and Buddha ... yep. That's where I am.

* I have found God, but He is insufficient. I am only spiritually dead. Physically, I am alive. Morally, I am free. The world I leave behind is a menagerie. The dawn is breaking on a new world. A jungle world, in which the lean spirits roam with sharp claws. If I am a hyena, I am a lean and hungry one. I go forth to fatten myself. ~~ Henry Miller, Tropic of Cancer

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   10:38:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: 2Trievers (#108)

I like the Henry Miller approach. I bet the social functions are a hell of a lot more fun...

He was exactly right...I have found God, but He is insufficient. "We'll understand it better by and by" or "we see through a glass, darkly", and that's supposed to fix it all?

Pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die-by-and-by. I'll have my dessert up front, while I'm here, thanks.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   10:41:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Samuel Gray (#109)

Yes. Can you imagine the women on the Titanic refusing dessert because it would make them fat. WHY?

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   10:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: 2Trievers (#110)

I don't get that either. Instead of singing Nearer My God To Thee (a myth, I know), I'd have been trying to uh...well, let's say use my remaining moments of life asking for "permission to come aboard" from the female passengers.

The diet thing gets in your head though. I was in Sam's Club when this diet was in full swing, and there are all these people offering you samples of stuff you can't have. This woman shoved a bottle of something toward me and asked if I'd consider trying their new laundry detergent. I automatically replied "how many grams of carbs does it have?"

;)

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   10:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Samuel Gray (#109)

I like the Henry Miller approach. I bet the social functions are a hell of a lot more fun... Pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die-by-and-by. I'll have my dessert up front, while I'm here, thanks.

Interesting statement.. so are you saying that because you see God as rules and regulations.. that if you reject Him, the matter of right/wrong then vanishes?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   10:58:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Samuel Gray (#109)

Pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die-by-and-by.

OMG. Play this Shatner. Iffin' you are on dial-up ... fugetaboutit.

Soo..Bye, bye miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
And good ol' boys were drinking whisky and rye?
Singing this will be the day that I die
this will be the day that I die

Did you write the book of love
And do you have faith in God above
If the Bible tells you so
Do you believe in rock n roll
Can music save your mortal soul
Then you can teach me to dance real slow

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   11:07:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Zipporah (#112)

I like the liberation of Miller's idea. It sounds a little predatory, it's just the imagery he uses there, more of a metaphor for feeding the flesh, but yeah, why not? If no one gets hurt, why not do what you want, instead of depending on some extraterrestrial arbiter of Good/Evil with a celestial retirement system?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   11:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: 2Trievers (#113)

Oh God...if Hell does have a soundtrack/Muzak system, it'll be Shatner's album playing over and over on an 8 track player with bad speakers.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   11:26:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Samuel Gray (#115)

"... what's all the fuss? Why did I bother?" Heh.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   11:29:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: 2Trievers (#96)

Evil is the absence of good.

Cold is the absence of heat.

Darkness is the absence of light.

What we so laughingly call "the problem of evil" bedevils us all, and rightly so. I do not believe that either secular philosophers or religious ones have solved this problem to anyone's satisfaction. The horror of it all is that how easily "good" is transformed into evil. Look at our common history.

The Bolsheviks in their civil war created a secular religion based on a theory of class warfare which they believed entitled them to shoot and starve millions of Ukrainian peasants in the name of the greatest good for the greatest number. A thousand years before, the Franks followed the cross across the Mediterranean and laid siege to Antioch in the name of good and true religion and, if Christian sources may be relied upon, took Jerusalem in 1099 slaughtering its inhabitants without regard to sex, age or religion. They stained the name of Christendom in the hearts of the East to this day.

In our time, our nation by means of finance and diplomacy, had a large share in fostering war between Iran and Iraq. We used our Department of Agriculture to ship millions of tons of wheat to Saddam who turned that into cash for his war with the Iranians. We facilitated fraudulent loans of many millions of dollars to a man the Defense Department called "a force for stability in the Middle East." Despite the millions given him, Saddam was heavily in debt after the war to people like the Kuwaitis who were encouraged by us to keep the financial pressure on his government, who were encouraged to drill into his oil fields and to goad him into a war that our diplomats hinted to Saddam was none of our business. We know what followed: war, sanctions, more war, and great sacrifice of life and treasure. Each step of the way was sanctioned by a greater good that justified an evil. And that evil was not punished. Instead yet more evil was done, and only the people suffered.

Let us take an individual case. That of the Ohio auto worker. Mister John Demjanjuk. He was arrested and called to account in part for crimes committed by a National Socialist regime sixty years ago. He was identified by our government as being a notorious concentration camp guard known for a penchant for brutality and arbitrary acts of homicide. Men in our government knew that he and "Ivan the Terrible" were indeed not the same person, yet they persisted in framing a case that would lead Mister Demjanjuk straight to the hangman's scaffold. Why? Why hang and innocent man? It was to promote the greater good of publicly avenging wrongs that had been done to innocents many years before in absolute disregard of justice and the merits of an individual case. There was a "greater good."

I take these examples to show what is obvious, and you and I can think of thousand of others. I highlight these because they are often on my mind and because they tell us something.

1) We are not always sure what good is. 2) Evil may masqueraded as good. 3) Power will always use our moral confusion for its own ends. 4) All our codes and good books are no defense from evil, and they may be turned in the service of evil time and time again. Islam will fail us. Christianity will fail us. Socialism will fail us.

Why have I used illustration here and not analogy to make this case?

Because I choose to look at the world the way it is. I am looking at forces to see how the operate on subjects and materia. I have used illustration rather then analogy, because analogy is a dangerous logical tool. Analogy is the pedagogue's tool. It is used by pedants in order to acquaint unseasoned minds with concepts that they are not quite ready to grasp in their entirety. Analogy may be legitimately employed by the teacher who knows his subject and may be trusted to lead his student from a level of crude apprehension to that of conceptual mastery.

So let us test your analogy. In order to absolve God, whoever he may be, from responsibility for evil, you say that evil is the absence of good as cold is the absence of heat or darkness is the absence of light. But the "agency of evil" used by God to test mankind is not a null set. It is a positive entity. It resides in all our hearts as the victory of self over other. It lives in the lust for power and the exploitation of the suffering of others of one's kind. The problem here is that you cannot remove evil by simply "bringing light." We have had generations of light bringers and we still have evil. In one degree or another we probably always will.

Darkness is [i]always[/i] banished by light. Cold is irresistibly vanquished by Heat. But good and evil may exist together, and more often than not reside quite comfortably in the same heart. "Love thy neighbor as thyself"; that is the whole of the law," says Rabbi Hillel. But I wonder if that is enough. It is not enough to love to live lawfully because "love" is an indulgence of the spirit. That same spirit may be equally gratified by the pain or by the pleasure of one's neighbor.

Evil is an entity. Not an external one a shaitan, a devil or Satan. It resides within us always, and it is the task of just men to tame it within the bounds of well tested systems of ethics. Evil is an entity whose outlines are not always clear, but which is always knocking at our door. It is not the absence of good. That is where your analogy breaks down.

As a last note I might suggest that all of us might be better served setting aside this "problem of evil" and meditating a good long while on answering the question "What is justice?" Because I believe that those throughout history who have labored to answer that question have done more to alleviate mankind's suffering than have the "bringers of light" whose banners always precede our divisions into bloody combat.

(The "humanist" sits.)

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   11:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Samuel Gray (#114)

If no one gets hurt, why not do what you want, instead of depending on some extraterrestrial arbiter of Good/Evil with a celestial retirement system?

No man is an island...

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   11:46:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Zipporah, randge (#118)

No man is an island...

True, but I'm working toward peninsular status, and will dig the canal at some later date.

What'd you think of randge's essay?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   11:51:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Zipporah (#118)

No man is an island...

See? There's a bit of Buddha in all of us.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   11:53:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: randge (#117)

I'll get back to you later .. have to wash my hair ... it hurts.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   11:55:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: 2Trievers (#120)

I'm from the South, people are way more likely to recognize "Bubbha" than "Buddha."

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   11:55:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Samuel Gray (#122)

I'm from the South.............

I'll not fault you for that.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   11:57:16 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: randge (#117)

1) We are not always sure what good is. 2) Evil may masqueraded as good. 3) Power will always use our moral confusion for its own ends. 4) All our codes and good books are no defense from evil, and they may be turned in the service of evil time and time again. Islam will fail us. Christianity will fail us. Socialism will fail us.

The cures of all finite ills are also the causes; every cultural outcome is its own motivation, its own petri dish; every father his own child, and every mary is her own lamb.

Science: What you know.
Religion: What you like.
Corollary: If man didn’t know so much there wouldn’t be so much that he dislikes. [Look at all the other species: They only have one item on their “No, No List.”]

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   12:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: 2Trievers (#124)

every father his own child

Sort of a Zen way of saying "go **** yourself?" ;)

Too much religion talk for Saturday. Six months till football starts again.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   12:56:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: 2Trievers (#124)

Hmmm . . .

Now I need to wash my hair.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   12:56:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Samuel Gray (#125)

*sigh ... you'll never get it ..........................Freedom is being free from pro or con.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   13:01:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: randge (#126)

LOL ...Standing in mankind’s library it was noted: “Leave out the Physical Sciences and it’s all fiction.”
Only a rebel thinker can face that.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   13:06:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Samuel Gray (#125)

............................and football.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   13:08:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: 2Trievers (#129)

I'm free from all of it, watching a battlefield reconstruction of Agincourt.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   13:38:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: 2Trievers (#128)

That's true. And partly because the "Social Sceinces" have a disregard for facts over and above presumptuous theory. These theories spawn a faulty lexicon and bad logic. The earnest student soon loses allhis bearings.

I got out of taking Sociology by taking Economics at school. Traded one sorry discipline for another.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   13:46:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Samuel Gray (#130)

Who's winning??

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   13:46:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#98)

Very good Capps. what is with me, is the fact that Creationists claim that their myth overrides science, when in fact it is NOT science.

Creationism and evolution has absolutely NOTHING in common, one is science based, empirical evidence etc, and Creationism is faith based, and has nothing to with any type of scientific evidence.

So, to somehow say that evolution is wrong because of creationism is NONSENSE.

To completely disavow science, because of a religious faith is STUPID, it is emotionally based nonsense.

Whenever I hear a creationist saying that evolution is wrong because of their religious beliefs, I pounce on that stupidity. It is just the way I am.

Evolution is scientific, empirical, falsifiable.

If you wish to ba a creationist, WONDERFUL, do, but do not tell others that science is wrong because you BELIEVE something else.

I am a Deist, I believe there is a God, not the way that you believe in a God, but I believe there is some Higher being. At the same time, I do not say that evolution is wrong because of my religious beliefs. They are 2 SEPARATE things.

Science is science, religion is religion, they have NOTHING in common whatsoever, and one CANNOT and WILL not disprove the other.

And until fundamentalists mature enough to make that realization, I will stomp on them whenever I run across them.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   13:57:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Samuel Gray (#130)

... gotta find you a New Hobby.

You-could-be-an-oca-rina-salesman-going-from-door-to-door ...

The gift of life it's a twist of fate
It's a roll of the die
It's a free lunch A free ride
The gift of life it's a shot in the dark
It's the call of the wild
It's the big wheel The big ride .............

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: randge (#132)

Bad day for King Harold.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   14:03:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: 2Trievers (#134)

gotta find you a New Hobby.

I'm working on a few ideas...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   14:04:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Aric2000 (#133)

And until fundamentalists mature enough to make that realization, I will stomp on them whenever I run across them.

I give you the Good Book. All I want is stereo FM installed in my teeth.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:06:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: randge (#131)

Got MBA?

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:07:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: All (#135)

Whoops, that was Hastings. Anyway, 6000 french guys are lying dead on the field of battle...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   14:07:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: 2Trievers (#137)

I'd want AM/FM installed in my teeth, and an HF transmitter too....LOL

And thanks for the book, but I have like 6 different copies of it in my library, alongside a number of other religious texts.

I find religion fascinating.

As some have said, respect someone who is searching for the truth, doubt those that claim they have found it.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   14:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Samuel Gray (#136)

Misheard lyrics...

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:10:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: 2Trievers (#141)

I love "mondegreens". Even got one published in a collection of them, a copy of the book w/ a nice note from the "author".

Mine was from the Eagle's song "Hotel California". "Warm smell of coitus rising up in the air."

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   14:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Samuel Gray (#119)

I do not believe that evil is an entity.. but evil resides in all men.. men are not basically good but basically evil and they are mankind is predisposed to do evil .. it is a choice.. and it's quite convenient and serves people to disregard or destroy God in their minds as a way to justify their actions....

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   14:15:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: 2Trievers (#138)

Got half way through and switched to linguitics.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   14:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Zipporah (#143)

I agree with you about where evil resides.

By saying "evil is an entity" I didn't mean that it was a being like Satan.

I meant that evil was not the lack of goodness alone. The propostion that it is the absence of good is part of the comology the writer was trying to present in defence of a God accused of being the author of both good and evil.

Evil exists. It's not the lack of something else.

What time is the game??

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   14:37:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Aric2000 (#140)

As some have said, respect someone who is searching for the truth, doubt those that claim they have found it.

“How do you explain the fact that if men couldn’t talk and write there would be no such thing as sin and the Bible?”

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:41:39 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: randge (#145)

By saying "evil is an entity" I didn't mean that it was a being like Satan.

Ah okay.. I misunderstood your meaning.. And I totally agree that evil is not the lack of goodness alone and that evil exists and not the lack of goodness.. athough I do believe that there is an entity that exists that shouldn't be depicted as the opposite of God.. which would put it/him on the same level as God..the antithesis..but it/he would eptomize evil.. but mankind has the choice to do evil which unfortunately is man is 'bent'..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   14:45:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: randge (#144)

Hmmmmm ... when you find out how to become a "perputal student" and keep a roof over your head ... let me know.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   14:48:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: 2Trievers (#146)

Question your premise.

Religion and transgression precede literacy, I'm afraid.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   14:49:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: 2Trievers (#148)

You guys STILL at it????

I'm impressed!

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   14:56:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: 2Trievers (#148)

Worked every day through UG and grad school, except for my very last semester.

Didn't have time or dough to be a perpetual student though. Wish I had. I'd have done a PhD. I rub academic folks thw wrong way somehow.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   14:57:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: 2Trievers (#148)

when you find out how to become a "perputal student" and keep a roof over your head ... let me know.

I don't know about perpetual student, but I do know some people who have made an art form out of being perpetual pains in the arse.

hmmmmm.... I wonder if there's $$$$ in it??? =0)

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   15:04:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#152)

Where's your sense of humor, jumior?

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   15:08:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: randge (#153)

Where's your sense of humor, jumior?

Now that is one thing I can say from first hand knowledge.. is that her sense of humor will run rings around most..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-02-19   15:11:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: 2Trievers (#146)

I like it, I like it a lot, and actually belief in an afterlife came before written language, so religion may be what started it off. Who knows, without religion, we might still be hunting and gathering in the plains of Africa....

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   15:11:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: randge (#153)

Where's your sense of humor, jumior?

Hey! I resemble that remark!!! I ain't THAT junior, you oldster you!

And besides, i wasn't referring to you as a pain in the arse - I was referring to other persons I know.

i.e. - making a bullshit comment

Don't take things personally - had I meant to say something mean about you, I would have pinged you or called you a name outright.

so chill! =0)

no harm, no foul!

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   15:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#156)

10-4, capps.

You are a gentleman.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   15:19:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: randge, CAPPSMADNESS (#157)

And a decent looking chick too.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   16:10:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#156)

I was referring to other persons I know.

Taking my name in vain again?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   16:10:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#150)

Not me, I gave up on religion and watched King Harold get dismembered at the battle of Hastings (not shot thru the eye with an arrow as the Bayeux tapestry said).

Sword thru the chest/heart, then decapitation, then disemboweled, finally, legs cut off below the knee.

Even then it was less bloody than most religious discussions.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   16:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: randge (#157)

You are a gentleman.

*looks for missing genetalia*

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:08:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Samuel Gray (#159)

Taking my name in vain again?

weeelllll......................

no.

=0)

just certain people I know (including myself) who have turned being anass pain into high art.

And I am only "DECENT" looking? YOU SUCK!!!

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:10:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#162)

And I am only "DECENT" looking?

You know how to improve yer rating. ;)

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   17:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#161)

My goodness! My bad today.

You are of course a most worthy poster of the more esteemed gender.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   17:23:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Samuel Gray (#163)

Get a boob job???

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:23:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: randge (#164)

You are of course a most worthy poster of the more esteemed gender.

Does that mean I can quit looking for missing appendages now????

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#166)

Yes, I am quite certain that you have all the appurtenances the God meant you to have.

Cheers.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   17:30:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#162)

just certain people I know (including myself) who have turned being anass pain into high art.

Why thank you, I hopefully resemble that remark....LOL

Aric2000  posted on  2005-02-19   17:31:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: Aric2000 (#168)

Why thank you, I hopefully resemble that remark....LOL

You sir, would then be in the same company as me - Do you REALLY want that???

;0)

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: randge (#167)

Yes, I am quite certain that you have all the appurtenances the God meant you to have.

Cheers.

good! 'cuz i kept looking and looking and looking and looking.......

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   17:33:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#170)

LOL.

randge  posted on  2005-02-19   17:39:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#165)

Get a boob job???

Hell no! Send me money ;) www.usmasters.com (I want the EP-52 w/ a maple neck).

If I want ta-tas I'll go get the hotwings at Hooters, but a 5 string bass w/ a good solid "B" string is pretty rare.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   17:50:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#150)

Thanks mom ... we seem to be getting along just fine.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:13:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#152)

And I just happen to have an award you can use ...

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:15:43 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: 2Trievers (#174)

I have earned 3 already....

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   21:21:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#175)

Just today? Maybe tomorrow will be better ...........

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: 2Trievers (#176)

Just today? Maybe tomorrow will be better ...........

Those are only the ones people have TOLD me about. Only God knows how many i actually earned!

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-02-19   21:29:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: randge (#151)

Didn't have time or dough to be a perpetual student though. Wish I had. I'd have done a PhD. I rub academic folks thw wrong way somehow.

It's difficult to play by their rules.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:32:33 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: Aric2000 (#155)

........we might still be hunting and gathering in the plains of Africa....

And what would be wrong with that? I'd consider it a step forward the way civilzation is going now.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:34:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#177)

Keep going Cappy ... I understand the Stanley Cup isn't being used this year ... maybe there's a BIG BIG trophy in it for you! LOL

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:36:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: 2Trievers (#179)

No high speed internet access...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   21:37:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Samuel Gray (#181)

What is the sound of of one lip disk clapping?

SAY! You'd probably get real good on the drums ....

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:43:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: 2Trievers (#182)

real good on the drums ....

Maybe, but the bone in the nose thing is out. Not even for a gig.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-02-19   21:49:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Samuel Gray (#183)

Chicken?

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   21:53:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Samuel Gray (#183)

Feel better?

2Trievers  posted on  2005-02-19   22:20:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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