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Title: Plan ''Daisy'' - (The Suppressed Document at LibertyForum.org)
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 28, 2005
Author: WindRiverShoshoni
Post Date: 2005-05-28 08:35:42 by toddbrendanfahey
Keywords: LibertyForum.org), Suppressed, 'Daisy'
Views: 589
Comments: 69

[Nuked]

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 37.

#11. To: toddbrendanfahey, Mr Nuke Buzzcut, Neil McIver, all (#0)

I have a couple questions about the implied tracing techniques, if anyone can answer?

(I've copied Mr. Nuke Buzzcut as he may know about the sepcific posters in question, and Neil for his generic understanding of forum servers)

The original (now edited) post in question is here at LF #900002 I presume WindRiverShoshoni is the post author and hence references to 'I' and 'my' are to LF poster WindRiverShoshoni.

First, notice that there are no Daisy11 entries in my logs for the period from March through June. That means that whoever was posting as Daisy11 had graphics turned off, my log entries come from graphics hosted on my website

Daisy11 posts regularly from 212.198.0.97, an anonymizing proxy server in Paris; and ALSO shows up in my server logs

So, assuming Daisy11 is not an identified poster on WindRiverShoshoni's website, and Daisy11 is a poster on LF who (like the rest of us) simply loads a thread from LF's website, then while graphics (or webbugs) might be downloaded from WindRiverShoshoni's website to anyone (including Daisy11) who browses a LF- hosted thread into which WindRiverShoshoni embedded a graphic (via 'img' tags), how could WindRiverShoshoni know which IP (anonymized or not) requesting the webbug is associated with Daisy11?

How does WindRiverShoshoni know what IP address is associated with the LF poster Daisy11?

Network Tracer comes up with a big nothing. Well, I went to Arin for each of the cited IP address and got an ISP and abuse email and techncial contract address. Further, firewalls block ping requests and prevent messaging to BIOS and other ports.

So, why does WindRiverShoshoni expect Network Tracer to always return identifying information? Firewalls (if fully enabled) block all of it.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   11:42:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

How does WindRiverShoshoni know what IP address is associated with the LF poster Daisy11?

If Daisy11 replies to a comment that contains the picture, the url will be different from the thread url, and there will be a close timestamp to narrow it down. This is a very common practice. When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop. FR's Sabertooth is a good example.

Some forums automatically append text to tell you the number of images in a post. If you see This post contains 1 image(s) under a post that seems to have no images, the poster could have inserted a plain tranparent gif, or one that looks like a period, trying to bait posters who might otherwise avoid replying to a sneak.

Rabble Rouser  posted on  2005-05-28   15:02:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

If Daisy11 replies to a comment that contains the picture, the url will be different from the thread url,

Well, the post or message URL will be different from the thread URL, yes. But those URLs are not transmitted back to WindRiverShoshoni's website. The requests for those URLs are known only to LF's server, the person browsing (Daisy11 or any number of lurkers) and internet hops in between. Further, the association of screen name "Daisy11" with the IP address for Daisy11's owner is known only to LF and Daisy11's owner. The screen name "Daisy11" is not transmitted with the various requests for posts or threads or avatars or images.

But the URL of the avatar, or transparent image or picture hosted by WindRiverShoshoni on WindRiverShoshoni's website is the only URL request that can be monitored by WindRiverShoshoni ('cause he's gotta serve it up when asked by the requesting IP). So when Daisy11 refreshes or replies on a thread, and when a lurker refreshes the same thread, there is no difference in the URL request for the avatar made to WindRiverShoshoni except for the IP address (Daisy11 owner's or a lurker's) to which the avator image is to be returned.

And so WindRiverShoshoni has no basis to identify an image/avatar requesting IP address as coming from Daisy11's owner's PC or some lurker's PC

Knowledge of Daisy11's owner's IP address must be determined someother way.

and there will be a close timestamp to narrow it down.

If Daisy11 replies and so a post is in the thread at time 15:33:25 (HH:MM:ss) and WindRiverShoshoni's logs show avatar requests at the exact same time 15:33:25 and if WindRiverShoshoni's logs show no other image requests near that time, then yes it might be reasonable to infer the Daisy11 post and IP requesting the avatar image came from the same PC.

But considering how frequently lurkers refresh an active thread, and that browsers don't always request cached images (as Neil pointed out) how likely can such an association be made?

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   17:50:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

This has nothing to do with Plan Daisy but it may give an explanation:

Blocking your Information

"When you send a request to a web site, it may respond with a request for a cookie. The cookie will be placed in your next request. If you wish to prevent web sites (and intermediaries, like your ISP) from seeing your personal information, you need to block the transmission of cookies.

This may sound simple--some browsers let you turn cookies off entirely, or block certain sites--but in actuality it's much more complicated. If you turn cookies off entirely, some sites will cease to work. They need some information about you to perform properly--online e-mail sites are a good example. You can't turn off all cookies without running into problems. On the other hand, you can't block certain sites easily either. Most privacy violations are generated by sites you may not even know you visit. The images on CNN.com, for example, may come from a totally different web site that's tracking you. This is done often with ads, to watch you on multiple web sites. If you block CNN.com, you aren't blocking the advertisers who put the images on CNN.com, so your personal information is being sent out anyway, even if you only visit CNN.com.

Of course this has to do with advertisers.. but could be used in the same way..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   18:12:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

You're absolutely correct. Cookies can (and typically are) used to spy and difficult to block.

I recommend ZoneAlarm firewall which can be programmed to block cookies, ads, webbugs, and private headers, on a site-by-site basis, as well as direct attempts to communicate with your BIOS and OS on a protocol and TCPIP port basis.

I also recommend Opera browser which can be programmed to block or accept cookies from a specific server, an entire domain, or 3rd party cookies from servers or domains.

Opera can also block popups, sound, animation, plugins and execution of Java or Java script, and referrals, but not on a site-by-site basis - it's all or none. That is an enhancement I've encouraged them to make, but not yet.

The combination of ZoneAlarm, Opera, Dynamically assigned IP addresses, and ISP spam & virus blocking can be pretty effective.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   18:24:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks for the advice.. on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images.. and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   18:32:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images..

LF requires "private headers" to authenticate posters (not lurtkers, just posters). LF also stores cookies. But neither the private headers nor cookie info from Daisy11 (for example) are accessable to 3rd parties like WindRiverShoshoni (again for example) assuming no security holes in LF's server software.

and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?

If you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   18:53:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

f you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.

No what I mean was .. why did Daisy 11 compile the data.. why would they want to track users and what would they do with that info.. From what I've read.. WRS was trying to expose what Daisy 11 was doing as far as I can tell .. by duplicating it..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   19:20:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

        There are no replies to Comment # 37.

End Trace Mode for Comment # 37.

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