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Title: Plan ''Daisy'' - (The Suppressed Document at LibertyForum.org)
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 28, 2005
Author: WindRiverShoshoni
Post Date: 2005-05-28 08:35:42 by toddbrendanfahey
Keywords: LibertyForum.org), Suppressed, 'Daisy'
Views: 515
Comments: 69

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#20. To: Starwind (#11)

From reading about this .. this is my take.. it seems that those who use graphics or icons have those graphics linked to a site of theirs.. they can see the IPs of those viewing those graphics and are able to see who replied to particular threads or posts.. by the time/date ..so the person who revealed this did the same thing as those he's saying were involved in this plant daisy.. I suppose he/she saw that certain people had icons/images linked to a particular site.. and did what they did in reverse.. ?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   14:27:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: toddbrendanfahey, Eoghan, Diana, robin (#0)

But Liberty Forum is the ONLY place that "allows as free discussion of politics as you will find" here.

4 has a much better signal to noise ratio.
That and the owners are decent, dedicated patriots.

They are unlocatable, they are hidden from view, they are completely obscured, by design and intent

Anybody doubting that 'Team Judeo' is not as represented in this article is naive.

1776  posted on  2005-05-28   15:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Starwind (#11)

How does WindRiverShoshoni know what IP address is associated with the LF poster Daisy11?

If Daisy11 replies to a comment that contains the picture, the url will be different from the thread url, and there will be a close timestamp to narrow it down. This is a very common practice. When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop. FR's Sabertooth is a good example.

Some forums automatically append text to tell you the number of images in a post. If you see This post contains 1 image(s) under a post that seems to have no images, the poster could have inserted a plain tranparent gif, or one that looks like a period, trying to bait posters who might otherwise avoid replying to a sneak.

Rabble Rouser  posted on  2005-05-28   15:02:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Rabble Rouser (#22)

When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop.

This post contains 1 image(s) under a post that seems to have no images, the poster could have inserted a plain tranparent gif, or one that looks like a period, trying to bait posters who might otherwise avoid replying to a sneak.

Hmm never thought about transparent images.. interesting.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   15:06:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Rabble Rouser, toddbrendanfahey, Neil McIver, 1776, Jethro Tull (#22)

FR's Sabertooth is a good example.

hmmmm...very interesting and the transparent image usage?

christine  posted on  2005-05-28   15:10:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: christine, Rabble Rouser, toddbrendanfahey, 1776, Jethro Tull (#24)

It has occurred to me that those inserting avatars may be doing this type of logging. Coral Snake and Sabertooth both did a lot of that kind of thing.

One thing about images though. Normally they are only loaded once by a given browser and not loaded again for that session. Browsers generally don't retrive the same image twice. You can see this happening with the 4um graphic. Compare it's appearance when you first visit the site vs clicking on other links on the site. That hampers attempts to trace a particular user's navigation of the site, though there may well be tricks to get around that.

4um's software does report the number of images in a given post, so any transparancy posts would be detectable by anyone reading the thread.

I've thought of adding a feature to shut off images in the user setup, which would replace the images with links to click on that would bring them up.

Neil McIver  posted on  2005-05-28   15:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Arator (#5)

go back and read the bible, the OT, then read the Koran, and get back to me.

you have a 'god' that, as a burning bush, is racist (the chosen ones), jealous, angry, advocates genital mutilation (called circumscion, there, ace) and BLOOD SACRIFICE. But I guess it's different when it's the culture YOU come from, right? I mean, the female genital mutilation in Africa, etc is just SO SAVAGE, right, but the judeo christian belief system is not examined with the same eye.

oh, how very unusual for belief system junkies.

moreover, the islamisicst are told the same thing, in the same manner, by a 'god' who is essentially the same.

you know, an 'enlightened' being who tries to generate love and devotion under force of threat of violence...

as I said, I have a cactus out back I'll burn incense to before I sign up for that spiritually naieve, immature fairy tale.

I could give a shit what anyone believes, until it gives them an attitude problem, which is pretty much what religion does.

or, did you miss that one?

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-05-28   15:46:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Eoghan (#8)

I expect to hear from the Senator, personally. She is the one claiming to represent me, not you.

stay keenly tuned for your most interesting form letter, I'm sure.

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-05-28   15:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: gengis gandhi, christine (#26)

moreover, the islamisicst are told the same thing, in the same manner, by a 'god' who is essentially the same.

pretty indistinguishable to me, except the representation in the Koran of deity he is a little less bloodthirsty and ethnocentric.

1776  posted on  2005-05-28   16:11:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: gengis gandhi (#26)

you have a 'god' that, as a burning bush, is racist (the chosen ones), jealous, angry...

Sounds like your kind of God, if you were into self-worship, that is...

...advocates genital mutilation (called circumscion, there, ace) and BLOOD SACRIFICE. But I guess it's different when it's the culture YOU come from, right? I mean, the female genital mutilation in Africa, etc is just SO SAVAGE, right, but the judeo christian belief system is not examined with the same eye.

There is a difference. Male circumcision just excises the foreskin, a rather useless excess of flesh. Its loss does not significantly impair a man's enjoyment of sex. Female circumcision, on the other hand, messes women up badly in that department, and is meant to. Hence, female circumcision IS cruel and barbaric. Male circumcision, on the other hand, is just a ritualized cutting that marks one outwardly, but does no real damage. Big difference, don't you think?

moreover, the islamisicst are told the same thing, in the same manner, by a 'god' who is essentially the same.

Not the same at all, really. Is the god of Islam cruel, distant, capricious, weilding judgment untempered by grace, mercy, love, etc.? The god of Israel is slow to anger, patient, kind, merciful, long-suffering, etc.

If he were not, you'd be a pile of ash after your post above. :^)

Arator  posted on  2005-05-28   16:12:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Rabble Rouser (#22)

If Daisy11 replies to a comment that contains the picture, the url will be different from the thread url,

Well, the post or message URL will be different from the thread URL, yes. But those URLs are not transmitted back to WindRiverShoshoni's website. The requests for those URLs are known only to LF's server, the person browsing (Daisy11 or any number of lurkers) and internet hops in between. Further, the association of screen name "Daisy11" with the IP address for Daisy11's owner is known only to LF and Daisy11's owner. The screen name "Daisy11" is not transmitted with the various requests for posts or threads or avatars or images.

But the URL of the avatar, or transparent image or picture hosted by WindRiverShoshoni on WindRiverShoshoni's website is the only URL request that can be monitored by WindRiverShoshoni ('cause he's gotta serve it up when asked by the requesting IP). So when Daisy11 refreshes or replies on a thread, and when a lurker refreshes the same thread, there is no difference in the URL request for the avatar made to WindRiverShoshoni except for the IP address (Daisy11 owner's or a lurker's) to which the avator image is to be returned.

And so WindRiverShoshoni has no basis to identify an image/avatar requesting IP address as coming from Daisy11's owner's PC or some lurker's PC

Knowledge of Daisy11's owner's IP address must be determined someother way.

and there will be a close timestamp to narrow it down.

If Daisy11 replies and so a post is in the thread at time 15:33:25 (HH:MM:ss) and WindRiverShoshoni's logs show avatar requests at the exact same time 15:33:25 and if WindRiverShoshoni's logs show no other image requests near that time, then yes it might be reasonable to infer the Daisy11 post and IP requesting the avatar image came from the same PC.

But considering how frequently lurkers refresh an active thread, and that browsers don't always request cached images (as Neil pointed out) how likely can such an association be made?

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   17:50:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Starwind (#30)

This has nothing to do with Plan Daisy but it may give an explanation:

Blocking your Information

"When you send a request to a web site, it may respond with a request for a cookie. The cookie will be placed in your next request. If you wish to prevent web sites (and intermediaries, like your ISP) from seeing your personal information, you need to block the transmission of cookies.

This may sound simple--some browsers let you turn cookies off entirely, or block certain sites--but in actuality it's much more complicated. If you turn cookies off entirely, some sites will cease to work. They need some information about you to perform properly--online e-mail sites are a good example. You can't turn off all cookies without running into problems. On the other hand, you can't block certain sites easily either. Most privacy violations are generated by sites you may not even know you visit. The images on CNN.com, for example, may come from a totally different web site that's tracking you. This is done often with ads, to watch you on multiple web sites. If you block CNN.com, you aren't blocking the advertisers who put the images on CNN.com, so your personal information is being sent out anyway, even if you only visit CNN.com.

Of course this has to do with advertisers.. but could be used in the same way..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   18:12:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Zipporah (#31)

You're absolutely correct. Cookies can (and typically are) used to spy and difficult to block.

I recommend ZoneAlarm firewall which can be programmed to block cookies, ads, webbugs, and private headers, on a site-by-site basis, as well as direct attempts to communicate with your BIOS and OS on a protocol and TCPIP port basis.

I also recommend Opera browser which can be programmed to block or accept cookies from a specific server, an entire domain, or 3rd party cookies from servers or domains.

Opera can also block popups, sound, animation, plugins and execution of Java or Java script, and referrals, but not on a site-by-site basis - it's all or none. That is an enhancement I've encouraged them to make, but not yet.

The combination of ZoneAlarm, Opera, Dynamically assigned IP addresses, and ISP spam & virus blocking can be pretty effective.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   18:24:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Starwind (#32)

[Nuked]

toddbrendanfahey  posted on  2005-05-28   18:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Starwind (#32)

Thanks for the advice.. on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images.. and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   18:32:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: toddbrendanfahey, Zipporah (#33)

The combination of ZoneAlarm, Opera, Dynamically assigned IP addresses, and ISP spam & virus blocking can be pretty effective.

I should add that using Outlook to send/receive email is dangerous.

I recommmend Eudora for email (in POP3 mode). Most of the browsers, firewalls and virus scanners recognize Eudora and will scan its email traffic for viri. The big plus over Outlook is Eudora will not automatically execute the .exe and .asx and dcom stuff that Outlook does (or at least used to) which is how a lot of spyware gets into folks systems - it's emailed to them and Outlook automatically executes it.

Eudora won't.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   18:41:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Zipporah (#34)

on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images..

LF requires "private headers" to authenticate posters (not lurtkers, just posters). LF also stores cookies. But neither the private headers nor cookie info from Daisy11 (for example) are accessable to 3rd parties like WindRiverShoshoni (again for example) assuming no security holes in LF's server software.

and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?

If you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.

Starwind  posted on  2005-05-28   18:53:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Starwind (#36)

f you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.

No what I mean was .. why did Daisy 11 compile the data.. why would they want to track users and what would they do with that info.. From what I've read.. WRS was trying to expose what Daisy 11 was doing as far as I can tell .. by duplicating it..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-28   19:20:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Jethro Tull (#6)

Here is the Liberty Forum article that exposed the operation of an organized Israeli loyalist hasbara operation at Liberty Forum, masquerading as a single individual called "Daisy11" ~ who joined Liberty Forum on November 23, 2002, and had added 11,097 posts by July 20, 2003 ~ 46.43 posts per day for 239 days, posting literally around the clock ...

This tells me you hit the nail on the head.

Ah hell, Boteye makes over 100 posts every day at LP. "Daisy11" is a rank amateur compared to that lying sack of shit.

orangedog  posted on  2005-05-28   20:07:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: toddbrendanfahey, nuke buzzcut (#0)

Where is Mr. Buzzcut? Wonder what his take on this is?

Speaking of, has anyone else noticed how low on posts the site is today???

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2005-05-28   21:32:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Starwind, Neil McIver (#30)

Well, the post or message URL will be different from the thread URL, yes. But those URLs are not transmitted back to WindRiverShoshoni's website. The requests for those URLs are known only to LF's server

Actually, yes they are, since the reply page contains the image again.

As for caching, I think most users are set to "automatic" which leaves it up to the server. I could be wrong about that, but still there must be ways around it, as I'm not making this stuff up off the top of my head. Google "tracking gif web ip" and see what comes up, I dunno.

Rabble Rouser  posted on  2005-05-28   21:36:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#39)

holiday weekend

christine  posted on  2005-05-28   21:43:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Rabble Rouser (#40)

Google "tracking gif web ip"

use altavista or dogpile instead ;)

christine  posted on  2005-05-28   21:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: toddbrendanfahey (#0)

I'm not sure why this gets so much comment. Does anyone seriously think that the Israelis and Repukes and Dems are not doing this stuff? They uncovered a bank in Minnesota in 1999 and 2000 with people paid $10 an hour to jump into sites with scripts about how great Bush was and so on. You could go from site to site and see the same cut and paste crap.

The Dems do it too, but it has no script, per se. But of course all sides are doing it. The most hilarious one is, I used to be a Democrat but I (blah, blah). When you ask them, what is the ONE value you loved about the Democratic party, they never answer. Ever. They're operatives.

If I was asked the opposite, I would say, keeping the deficit down, limiting the growth of government, limiting overseas involvement by our military, limiting taxation, doing something about illegal immigration, etc.

I'm a liberal, but a deficit hawk and worried that illegal immigration injures the immigrants as much as it does our country. we would be better off subsidizing the immigrant communities to give them a liveable standard of living, because it would cost us millions, not billions. And perhaps encouraging BIRTH CONTROL, but that doesn't fit this regime's agenda, because they need the "only bareback sex allowed" agenda of the Catholic church and the other fundies.

Mekons4  posted on  2005-05-28   21:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Rabble Rouser, All (#22)

When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop. FR's Sabertooth is a good example.

Worth repeating--especially for those who are not savvy about these things.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-05-28   23:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#44)

Worth repeating--especially for those who are not savvy about these things.

I wondered alot of the very few posters at FR who used those. Interesting.

justlurking  posted on  2005-05-28   23:50:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Mekons4 (#43)

illegal immigration injures the immigrants as much as it does our country. we would be better off subsidizing the immigrant communities to give them a liveable standard of living, because it would cost us millions, not billions. And perhaps encouraging BIRTH CONTROL, but that doesn't fit this regime's agenda, because they need the "only bareback sex allowed" agenda of the Catholic church and the other fundies.

KaZING!! Good hit.

robin  posted on  2005-05-28   23:58:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: justlurking (#45)

Yes, don't forget that asshole with the little blue apple. William Tell is his posting name, I think.

h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t  posted on  2005-05-29   0:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: toddbrendanfahey (#0)

A tempest is raging at the Web's premiere Libertarian discussion forum.

That's probably the most depressing single sentence I've seen in a while.

Tauzero  posted on  2005-05-29   1:00:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Tauzero (#48)

That's probably the most depressing single sentence I've seen in a while.

I wouldn't be too depressed if I were you; this "hot story" is from two years ago.

Astoria  posted on  2005-05-29   1:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Astoria (#49)

I don't mind a tempest -- it's the "premiere" that gets me.

Tauzero  posted on  2005-05-29   1:23:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: orangedog (#38)

Ah hell, Boteye makes over 100 posts every day at LP. "Daisy11" is a rank amateur compared to that lying sack of shit.

Over 100 posts a day? All with the same predictability? OK, here's a non professional psych evaluation; the man? is an amalgamation of many posters, a la Daisy11, or is seriously ill. Perhaps both? Whatever, avoid it/him/her at all costs.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-05-29   12:24:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: toddbrendanfahey, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#44)

Thank you for the ping, TBF. This explains a lot for me. One time on FR, I dared mention 'other' concentration camp victims rarely if ever discussed and the number of Jewish victims mysteriously upped over the years, I was immediately accosted. I always thought there was something suspicious going on. All victims should be remembered and numbers shouldn't be manipulated, imo.

HW - sorry to be stupid; I searched on this thread, but still don't understand - what is an avatar exactly?

rattler  posted on  2005-05-29   12:29:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#18)

I can't believe how many countries we are giving (loaning?) money to. I saw this yesterday. $3 BILLION!!!

"Rep. Jim Kolbe leaves today for a six-day trip to eastern Mediterranean countries that receive nearly $3 billion in American assistance.

The Tucson Republican, chairman of the House panel that oversees foreign aid, will lead a bipartisan congressional delegation to Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, Turkey and Cyprus."

http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/77297.php

rattler  posted on  2005-05-29   12:37:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: rattler (#52)

an avatar is a graphic or picture that posters use under every post. have you seen Sabertooth's or Coral Snake's posts? they both use them. also, some websites, for example LF, has the feature for posters on their profile pages. here's mine: christine

christine  posted on  2005-05-29   12:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: christine (#54)

Gotcha - thanks!

rattler  posted on  2005-05-29   12:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: rattler (#53)

Are you aware that we have military presence in more than 140 countries? Below is the statement of purpose from my and Jethro Tull's website, www.bringemhome.org.

A flag displayed upside-down is recognized as an international sign of distress. Like the inverted flag, our upside-down ribbon symbolizes a state of distress. Our military is in distress. Our country is in distress. Our world is in distress. The war is a lie. The reasons for the war are lies. George Bush says, “Bring ‘em on.” We say, Bring ‘em Home.

At the behest of the State Department, the U.S. military is currently occupying over 140 countries. In Afghanistan and Iraq, our military men and women are dying and being maimed every day. Our military personnel are being forced to kill and maim civilians -- men, women, and children in addition to the Iraqi “insurgents,” as there is virtually no way to distinguish who among them is enemy, ally, or neutral.

The U.S. government has never provided clear and convincing evidence that Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country poses an unambiguous, direct, and imminent threat to America. Moreover, Congress has failed to fulfill its Constitutional duty of formally passing a Declaration of War. It is unconstitutional for the President to both declare war and then prosecute that war. Over two centuries ago, George Washington warned against the peril of foreign entanglements. The costs for these wars and foreign entanglements are too high for America to tolerate. Destruction of life and limb, monetary expense, loss of moral authority internationally, and damage to America’s image as a nation of peace are heavy prices to pay for a war that benefits primarily the corporate profiteers.

Our military men and women should not be asked or expected to sacrifice their lives and futures in serving as the world’s police force. The best way to support our troops is to Bring ‘em Home. What country would want to do us harm if U.S. troops withdrew from its internal affairs? What country would dare do us harm if all of our troops were on American soil? Our troops belong at home protecting our borders and our country.

However, for the power-hungry imperialists to accomplish their ultimate goal of global control, the U.S. must be at war, for nothing can match war in its capacity to create wealth for the international banking cartel, or power- acquisition for the U.S. government. Nothing cranks up the debt to a country’s people as does war. The consequences of war are profit to the bankers, power to the government and, unfortunately, servitude, poverty, and destruction to the people.

The U.S. government is at war with much of the world. Domestically, there is a war on drugs, a war on poverty, a war on illiteracy, a war on crime, a war on disease, a war on hunger, and now a war on terror -- all amounting to a war on the people. Internationally, the war on terrorism and the global “peacekeeping” operations are tantamount to a war on the sovereign nations of the world. The global elitists are using our military’s men and women for their personal power and profit.

America, we are in distress. We must stop the war machine. We must support our troops. We must Bring ‘em Home.

"Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy." ~ Henry Kissinger ~ January-February 2003 edition of Eagle Newsletter

christine  posted on  2005-05-29   12:59:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: christine (#56)

No, my ignorance is bliss :)

I've always thought we should not have entered any war, including WWII. Even my own parents, who were little and in Europe during WWII (my father was in a concentration camp for awhile), don't think FDR should have been mucking around over there.

That said, I do have several ribbons on my car for my relatives and friends. Though I kind of like your ribbon better!

rattler  posted on  2005-05-29   13:04:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Jethro Tull, starwind (#51)

Over 100 posts a day? All with the same predictability? OK, here's a non professional psych evaluation; the man? is an amalgamation of many posters, a la Daisy11, or is seriously ill. Perhaps both?

Here is a link to one of the most entertaining threads ever posted on LP. It haunts boteye to this day. Rivaled only by the time he announced that he bragged about his businessman of the year award.

orangedog  posted on  2005-05-29   13:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: orangedog (#58)

Quite interesting and even more interesting were the defense tactics.. of course pointing out the obvious backed up with facts means that the person has an agenda.. of course they ignored the real agenda ..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-29   13:50:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: christine (#56)

The U.S. government has never provided clear and convincing evidence that Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country poses an unambiguous, direct, and imminent threat to America.

Be careful about your posts. Afghanistan required the full force of the US military (which never happened) (however) because of the lust for oil by GWBush and his neocon pals, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Rumsfeld.

buckeroo  posted on  2005-05-29   14:34:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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