See other Science/Tech Articles
Title: Plan ''Daisy'' - (The Suppressed Document at LibertyForum.org)
Source:
[None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 28, 2005
Author: WindRiverShoshoni
Post Date: 2005-05-28 08:35:42 by toddbrendanfahey
Keywords: LibertyForum.org), Suppressed, 'Daisy'
Views: 625
Comments: 69
[Nuked]
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
Comments (1-29) not displayed.
.
.
.
#30. To: Rabble Rouser (#22)
Well, the post or message URL will be different from the thread URL, yes. But those URLs are not transmitted back to WindRiverShoshoni's website. The requests for those URLs are known only to LF's server, the person browsing (Daisy11 or any number of lurkers) and internet hops in between. Further, the association of screen name "Daisy11" with the IP address for Daisy11's owner is known only to LF and Daisy11's owner. The screen name "Daisy11" is not transmitted with the various requests for posts or threads or avatars or images. But the URL of the avatar, or transparent image or picture hosted by WindRiverShoshoni on WindRiverShoshoni's website is the only URL request that can be monitored by WindRiverShoshoni ('cause he's gotta serve it up when asked by the requesting IP). So when Daisy11 refreshes or replies on a thread, and when a lurker refreshes the same thread, there is no difference in the URL request for the avatar made to WindRiverShoshoni except for the IP address (Daisy11 owner's or a lurker's) to which the avator image is to be returned. And so WindRiverShoshoni has no basis to identify an image/avatar requesting IP address as coming from Daisy11's owner's PC or some lurker's PC Knowledge of Daisy11's owner's IP address must be determined someother way. If Daisy11 replies and so a post is in the thread at time 15:33:25 (HH:MM:ss) and WindRiverShoshoni's logs show avatar requests at the exact same time 15:33:25 and if WindRiverShoshoni's logs show no other image requests near that time, then yes it might be reasonable to infer the Daisy11 post and IP requesting the avatar image came from the same PC. But considering how frequently lurkers refresh an active thread, and that browsers don't always request cached images (as Neil pointed out) how likely can such an association be made?
This has nothing to do with Plan Daisy but it may give an explanation: Blocking your Information "When you send a request to a web site, it may respond with a request for a cookie. The cookie will be placed in your next request. If you wish to prevent web sites (and intermediaries, like your ISP) from seeing your personal information, you need to block the transmission of cookies. This may sound simple--some browsers let you turn cookies off entirely, or block certain sites--but in actuality it's much more complicated. If you turn cookies off entirely, some sites will cease to work. They need some information about you to perform properly--online e-mail sites are a good example. You can't turn off all cookies without running into problems. On the other hand, you can't block certain sites easily either. Most privacy violations are generated by sites you may not even know you visit. The images on CNN.com, for example, may come from a totally different web site that's tracking you. This is done often with ads, to watch you on multiple web sites. If you block CNN.com, you aren't blocking the advertisers who put the images on CNN.com, so your personal information is being sent out anyway, even if you only visit CNN.com. Of course this has to do with advertisers.. but could be used in the same way..
You're absolutely correct. Cookies can (and typically are) used to spy and difficult to block. I recommend ZoneAlarm firewall which can be programmed to block cookies, ads, webbugs, and private headers, on a site-by-site basis, as well as direct attempts to communicate with your BIOS and OS on a protocol and TCPIP port basis. I also recommend Opera browser which can be programmed to block or accept cookies from a specific server, an entire domain, or 3rd party cookies from servers or domains. Opera can also block popups, sound, animation, plugins and execution of Java or Java script, and referrals, but not on a site-by-site basis - it's all or none. That is an enhancement I've encouraged them to make, but not yet. The combination of ZoneAlarm, Opera, Dynamically assigned IP addresses, and ISP spam & virus blocking can be pretty effective.
[Nuked]
Thanks for the advice.. on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images.. and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?
I should add that using Outlook to send/receive email is dangerous. I recommmend Eudora for email (in POP3 mode). Most of the browsers, firewalls and virus scanners recognize Eudora and will scan its email traffic for viri. The big plus over Outlook is Eudora will not automatically execute the .exe and .asx and dcom stuff that Outlook does (or at least used to) which is how a lot of spyware gets into folks systems - it's emailed to them and Outlook automatically executes it. Eudora won't.
LF requires "private headers" to authenticate posters (not lurtkers, just posters). LF also stores cookies. But neither the private headers nor cookie info from Daisy11 (for example) are accessable to 3rd parties like WindRiverShoshoni (again for example) assuming no security holes in LF's server software. If you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.
No what I mean was .. why did Daisy 11 compile the data.. why would they want to track users and what would they do with that info.. From what I've read.. WRS was trying to expose what Daisy 11 was doing as far as I can tell .. by duplicating it..
This tells me you hit the nail on the head. Ah hell, Boteye makes over 100 posts every day at LP. "Daisy11" is a rank amateur compared to that lying sack of shit.
Where is Mr. Buzzcut? Wonder what his take on this is? Speaking of, has anyone else noticed how low on posts the site is today???
Actually, yes they are, since the reply page contains the image again. As for caching, I think most users are set to "automatic" which leaves it up to the server. I could be wrong about that, but still there must be ways around it, as I'm not making this stuff up off the top of my head. Google "tracking gif web ip" and see what comes up, I dunno.
holiday weekend
use altavista or dogpile instead ;)
I'm not sure why this gets so much comment. Does anyone seriously think that the Israelis and Repukes and Dems are not doing this stuff? They uncovered a bank in Minnesota in 1999 and 2000 with people paid $10 an hour to jump into sites with scripts about how great Bush was and so on. You could go from site to site and see the same cut and paste crap. The Dems do it too, but it has no script, per se. But of course all sides are doing it. The most hilarious one is, I used to be a Democrat but I (blah, blah). When you ask them, what is the ONE value you loved about the Democratic party, they never answer. Ever. They're operatives. If I was asked the opposite, I would say, keeping the deficit down, limiting the growth of government, limiting overseas involvement by our military, limiting taxation, doing something about illegal immigration, etc. I'm a liberal, but a deficit hawk and worried that illegal immigration injures the immigrants as much as it does our country. we would be better off subsidizing the immigrant communities to give them a liveable standard of living, because it would cost us millions, not billions. And perhaps encouraging BIRTH CONTROL, but that doesn't fit this regime's agenda, because they need the "only bareback sex allowed" agenda of the Catholic church and the other fundies.
Worth repeating--especially for those who are not savvy about these things.
I wondered alot of the very few posters at FR who used those. Interesting.
KaZING!! Good hit.
Yes, don't forget that asshole with the little blue apple. William Tell is his posting name, I think.
That's probably the most depressing single sentence I've seen in a while.
I wouldn't be too depressed if I were you; this "hot story" is from two years ago.
I don't mind a tempest -- it's the "premiere" that gets me.
Over 100 posts a day? All with the same predictability? OK, here's a non professional psych evaluation; the man? is an amalgamation of many posters, a la Daisy11, or is seriously ill. Perhaps both? Whatever, avoid it/him/her at all costs.
Thank you for the ping, TBF. This explains a lot for me. One time on FR, I dared mention 'other' concentration camp victims rarely if ever discussed and the number of Jewish victims mysteriously upped over the years, I was immediately accosted. I always thought there was something suspicious going on. All victims should be remembered and numbers shouldn't be manipulated, imo. HW - sorry to be stupid; I searched on this thread, but still don't understand - what is an avatar exactly?
I can't believe how many countries we are giving (loaning?) money to. I saw this yesterday. $3 BILLION!!! "Rep. Jim Kolbe leaves today for a six-day trip to eastern Mediterranean countries that receive nearly $3 billion in American assistance. The Tucson Republican, chairman of the House panel that oversees foreign aid, will lead a bipartisan congressional delegation to Israel, the West Bank, Lebanon, Turkey and Cyprus." http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/allheadlines/77297.php
an avatar is a graphic or picture that posters use under every post. have you seen Sabertooth's or Coral Snake's posts? they both use them. also, some websites, for example LF, has the feature for posters on their profile pages. here's mine: christine
Gotcha - thanks!
Are you aware that we have military presence in more than 140 countries? Below is the statement of purpose from my and Jethro Tull's website, www.bringemhome.org. A flag displayed upside-down is recognized as an international sign of distress. Like the inverted flag, our upside-down ribbon symbolizes a state of distress. Our military is in distress. Our country is in distress. Our world is in distress. The war is a lie. The reasons for the war are lies. George Bush says, “Bring ‘em on.” We say, Bring ‘em Home. At the behest of the State Department, the U.S. military is currently occupying over 140 countries. In Afghanistan and Iraq, our military men and women are dying and being maimed every day. Our military personnel are being forced to kill and maim civilians -- men, women, and children in addition to the Iraqi “insurgents,” as there is virtually no way to distinguish who among them is enemy, ally, or neutral. The U.S. government has never provided clear and convincing evidence that Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country poses an unambiguous, direct, and imminent threat to America. Moreover, Congress has failed to fulfill its Constitutional duty of formally passing a Declaration of War. It is unconstitutional for the President to both declare war and then prosecute that war. Over two centuries ago, George Washington warned against the peril of foreign entanglements. The costs for these wars and foreign entanglements are too high for America to tolerate. Destruction of life and limb, monetary expense, loss of moral authority internationally, and damage to America’s image as a nation of peace are heavy prices to pay for a war that benefits primarily the corporate profiteers. Our military men and women should not be asked or expected to sacrifice their lives and futures in serving as the world’s police force. The best way to support our troops is to Bring ‘em Home. What country would want to do us harm if U.S. troops withdrew from its internal affairs? What country would dare do us harm if all of our troops were on American soil? Our troops belong at home protecting our borders and our country. However, for the power-hungry imperialists to accomplish their ultimate goal of global control, the U.S. must be at war, for nothing can match war in its capacity to create wealth for the international banking cartel, or power- acquisition for the U.S. government. Nothing cranks up the debt to a country’s people as does war. The consequences of war are profit to the bankers, power to the government and, unfortunately, servitude, poverty, and destruction to the people. The U.S. government is at war with much of the world. Domestically, there is a war on drugs, a war on poverty, a war on illiteracy, a war on crime, a war on disease, a war on hunger, and now a war on terror -- all amounting to a war on the people. Internationally, the war on terrorism and the global “peacekeeping” operations are tantamount to a war on the sovereign nations of the world. The global elitists are using our military’s men and women for their personal power and profit. America, we are in distress. We must stop the war machine. We must support our troops. We must Bring ‘em Home. "Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy." ~ Henry Kissinger ~ January-February 2003 edition of Eagle Newsletter
No, my ignorance is bliss :) I've always thought we should not have entered any war, including WWII. Even my own parents, who were little and in Europe during WWII (my father was in a concentration camp for awhile), don't think FDR should have been mucking around over there. That said, I do have several ribbons on my car for my relatives and friends. Though I kind of like your ribbon better!
Here is a link to one of the most entertaining threads ever posted on LP. It haunts boteye to this day. Rivaled only by the time he announced that he bragged about his businessman of the year award.
Quite interesting and even more interesting were the defense tactics.. of course
pointing out the obvious backed up with facts means that the person has an
agenda.. of course they ignored the real agenda ..
Be careful about your posts. Afghanistan required the full force of the US military (which never happened) (however) because of the lust for oil by GWBush and his neocon pals, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Rumsfeld.
Huh? That's like 20+ posts an hour?
Sick. Or multiple people? I vote for multiple people. Also, about that
Businessman of the Year award. I understand there is a pic on the net of him
receiving it. It needs a full, public airing. These worms hiding behind computer
monitors need to be outed. Especially this skinny dick head.
I'm trying to imagine what that lying asshole would look like. If there are any pics of him out there, link 'em up.
Let me murk about.
You wouldn't happen to have the thread where badeye bragged about how big his dong was would you? He did this about five or six months ago and really caused a stir. I'd like to have the link so we could have a commenmorative thread on the anniversary.
No, I'm pretty sure I don't have any info about that thread.
Correct. WRS never had access to LF logs. The other thing that he didn't account for was the use of proxy servers, which quite a few people use. There are places where you can get a list of free proxies at any given time. They are all over the world and would make it look like you were in Japan one session, Russia the next, Netherlands the next and maybe Hong Kong after that.
Thanks very much for the explanation.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
This tells me you hit the nail on the head. I believe this article and the research that you've brought here. Thanks. Thank you. I found this Thread in a Google search for "daisy11 libertyforum" that showed up in my server logs in 2004, and am posting mainly as an experiment to see whether it gets "Nuked." I haven't spent much time at Web discussion forums since leaving Liberty Forum, but didn't know about this forum. The original article has been viewed 18,492 times. It's linked at some thirty websites; a Google search on "daisy11 libertyforum" displays 12 of 35 returns, all of which are about Plan Daisy, and "plandazy.htm" displays 17 of 28 returns. It's the most-visited page on my website, while the home page has a thousand fewer hits. It's being discussed (again) at Liberty Forum, with the first acknowledgement of possible validity from any LF apologist here To clear up some misconceptions: I wasn't looking for Daisy11. Daisy11 was trolling and I could not have cared less about her, she was just another Liberety Forum white noise generator. I had been asked to check my server logs by a Liberty Forum moderator who suspected that two other Liberty Forum screen names (not Daisy11) were being used by one person (it was two distinct LF members, not a "double"), and the Daisy11 log entries virtually jumped out of the page at me. "Daisy11" was unquestionably a collective of several individuals spread over two continents. Only Daisy11 was using a proxy, all the others were using consumer ISP accounts, most of them dialups, and no proxies. None of them were AOL users, so it was possible to determine their ISP's location from their IP addresses. I have just excerpted all the relevant server log entries from my archives, into a single text file. There are more "Daisy11" team members than I had thought when I first wrote the article. I'm considering a "Plan Daisy III" article because the original is still being republished, linked, and (most of all) read. The mechanics are simple and not remotely sinister: own a website, host graphics as a courtesy for LF members to use in their posts, read the server logs. Every time your browser opens, re-opens, or refreshes a page, it checks with the server for every included "content" file to make sure it hasn't been changed since it was last loaded. When the file is in that browser's local cache and has not been changed, the server returns a "304" error code that means "The file in your cache is current." I've hosted dozens of graphics for the use of Liberty Forum members (and others), and spent much of my time at Liberty Forum explaining how the Web works and how unseen "researchers" can penetrate the imagined "privacy" so many people think they have on the Web. Demonstrating that lack of privacy, for those whose lack of technical information led them to believe that they could be "anonymous" just because Liberty Forum said they were, tended to upset some people who wanted to perpetuate the privacy myth. It is certainly possible to protect the privacy of the members of a Web forum. NOLAJBS does it fairly well. Liberty Forum doesn't do it at all, except by "Terms of Service" that do nothing at all to protect privacy, and then goes a bit further to banish whistle-blowers who strip away the mythology by showing how the Web works. LibertyForum's self-search function gives the LF member a page of links to his or her posts. Each link, at that time (2002-03), contained the username, like this (I've added line breaks for readability): Stargate asked how could WindRiverShoshoni know which IP (anonymized or not) requesting the webbug is associated with Daisy11? How does WindRiverShoshoni know what IP address is associated with the LF poster Daisy11? The referrer headers from self-search pages included the username at that time. The referrer headers from searches for someone else's posts had different parameters in the search strings. So, why does WindRiverShoshoni expect Network Tracer to always return identifying information? Firewalls (if fully enabled) block all of it. Network Tracer gathers information about an IP address, domain url, or email address, from several public databases of Internet registry information. It does not return any "identifying information" about whoever might be using that IP address. Firewalls don't even enter the picture. There is no "identifying information" or any "private information" in the Plan Daisy article, or in Liberty Forum's referrer headers. The identities of the Plan Daisy team members were never available. Some of the Liberty Forum activity of "Daisy11" (whoever that was) was available to anyone who hosted graphics or any other linked material (such as ICQ icons) that appeared at Liberty Forum. Neil McIver wrote: You're right that there is no immediate & direct info linking a log entry for a particular IP to a screen name on another site, but some conclusions might be made based on circumstantial evidence over time, like seeing one IP access a thread repeatedly over time. Liberty Forum referrer headers at that time contained usernames, which did in fact link particular IP addresses to particular LF members. Rabble Rouser wrote When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop. The same could be said about anyone who posts any graphics into what they post to a Thread, but it would still be an overly paranoid statement. Not everyone who uses an avatar hosted on their own website (e.g., an Earthlink subscriber has a "Home Page" that can serve graphics) is doing demographic data mining or building dossiers on politically-active individuals. However, as I repeatedly detailed at Liberty Forum, the use of graphics is one way in which "snoops" can penetrate "privacy" shields on the Web. But explaining how it's being done (by intelligence agencies, businesses, police agencies, et cetera), and especially proving it can be done, will get you banished from Liberty Forum. Mekons4 wrote: Does anyone seriously think that the Israelis and Repukes and Dems are not doing this stuff? Exactly. But Liberty Forum's "inner circle" (Administrators, etc) have claimed that Liberty Forum members are "anonymous" and can't be identified or located, and banish anyone who proves that to be a false claim. Nuke Buzzcut's comments have been addressed above ~ usernames in the referrer headers, only one proxy in use by Daisy11. At any rate, there's some more information about Plan Daisy and how it was exposed. The article, and the second page (linked at the bottom of the article), is still current, because there are hasbara teams at most political discussion forums, visible or not. I'll be happy to address any questions from anyone who has read both Plan Daisy pages, and am considering writing a Plan Daisy III article to add to it. ~WindRiverShoshoni
hello, WRS. welcome to 4. this particularly article was posted by TBF. it was nuked along with all of his other posts because of problems we had with him here. it was not nuked because of content. because this was an old thread, i'm sure most here don't know or won't remember what Plan Daisy is or are also unaware of LibertyForum and its history.
If Daisy11 replies to a comment that contains the picture, the url will be different from the thread url,
and there will be a close timestamp to narrow it down.
#31. To: Starwind (#30)
#32. To: Zipporah (#31)
#33. To: Starwind (#32)
#34. To: Starwind (#32)
#35. To: toddbrendanfahey, Zipporah (#33)
The combination of ZoneAlarm, Opera, Dynamically assigned IP addresses, and ISP spam & virus blocking can be pretty effective.
#36. To: Zipporah (#34)
on LF etc.. They couldve used cookies but more than likely it was the IPs w/ time/date stamp of those who replied or viewed the images..
and makes you wonder then.. what do/did they do with that information..?
#37. To: Starwind (#36)
f you mean why does WindRiverShoshoni collect it? I guess because he got suspicious of Daisy11's posting rate (similar to my suspicions of Badeye's posting rates on LP) and LFs management - human nature? I really dunno.
#38. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
Here is the Liberty Forum article that exposed the operation of an organized Israeli loyalist hasbara operation at Liberty Forum, masquerading as a single individual called "Daisy11" ~ who joined Liberty Forum on November 23, 2002, and had added 11,097 posts by July 20, 2003 ~ 46.43 posts per day for 239 days, posting literally around the clock ...
#39. To: toddbrendanfahey, nuke buzzcut (#0)
#40. To: Starwind, Neil McIver (#30)
Well, the post or message URL will be different from the thread URL, yes. But those URLs are not transmitted back to WindRiverShoshoni's website. The requests for those URLs are known only to LF's server
#41. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#39)
#42. To: Rabble Rouser (#40)
Google "tracking gif web ip"
#43. To: toddbrendanfahey (#0)
#44. To: Rabble Rouser, All (#22)
When I see someone with an avatar on a forum that doesn't have them built in, or a clearly experienced poster who is using an avatar (a very dork-newbie device, really), you can assume they're using it to snoop. FR's Sabertooth is a good example.
#45. To: h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#44)
Worth repeating--especially for those who are not savvy about these things.
#46. To: Mekons4 (#43)
illegal immigration injures the immigrants as much as it does our country. we would be better off subsidizing the immigrant communities to give them a liveable standard of living, because it would cost us millions, not billions. And perhaps encouraging BIRTH CONTROL, but that doesn't fit this regime's agenda, because they need the "only bareback sex allowed" agenda of the Catholic church and the other fundies.
#47. To: justlurking (#45)
#48. To: toddbrendanfahey (#0)
A tempest is raging at the Web's premiere Libertarian discussion forum.
#49. To: Tauzero (#48)
That's probably the most depressing single sentence I've seen in a while.
#50. To: Astoria (#49)
#51. To: orangedog (#38)
Ah hell, Boteye makes over 100 posts every day at LP. "Daisy11" is a rank amateur compared to that lying sack of shit.
#52. To: toddbrendanfahey, h-a-l-f-w-i-t-t (#44)
#53. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#18)
#54. To: rattler (#52)
#55. To: christine (#54)
#56. To: rattler (#53)
#57. To: christine (#56)
#58. To: Jethro Tull, starwind (#51)
Over 100 posts a day? All with the same predictability? OK, here's a non professional psych evaluation; the man? is an amalgamation of many posters, a la Daisy11, or is seriously ill. Perhaps both?
#59. To: orangedog (#58)
#60. To: christine (#56)
The U.S. government has never provided clear and convincing evidence that Iraq, Afghanistan, or any other country poses an unambiguous, direct, and imminent threat to America.
#61. To: orangedog (#58)
Badeye 116 posts in 5.5 hours on Tuesday 2004-08-17 09:13:28 thru
2004- 08-17 14:39:41
#62. To: Jethro Tull (#61)
#63. To: orangedog (#62)
#64. To: orangedog (#58)
Here is a link to one of the most entertaining threads ever posted on LP. It haunts boteye to this day. Rivaled only by the time he announced that he bragged about his businessman of the year award.
#65. To: crack monkey (#64)
You wouldn't happen to have the thread where badeye bragged about how big his dong was would you?
#66. To: Starwind (#11)
So, WindRiverShoshoni is referring to his logs and his website, and not presumably to LF website logs, right?
How does WindRiverShoshoni know what IP address is associated with the LF poster Daisy11?
It is a bit of an art to do what he was trying to do. You have to make a post with a graphic that will be loaded from your server and then try to match up the hits in your server logs with the post times on the thread. If the activity is low enough and you post something that only that person you are stalking is likely to read and reply, you can be fairly sure you identified them. However, WRS was sloppy in his analysis, or he was just fishing to see what he could provoke someone to confess.
#67. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#66)
#68. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
46.43 posts per day for 239 days, posting literally around the clock ...
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&
and those links become "referrer headers" in the server logs of any graphics displayed on that Thread page. This is industry-standard, all Apache web servers include referrer headers in their logs, and most browsers send them with any request for a file linked into a page. As is noted in the article, however, those browsers that have graphics turned off do not create log entries because they never ask for the graphic.
Board=news_philosophy&Number=913997&Forum=All_Forums&
Words=daisy11&Match=Username&Searchpage=0&Limit=25
&Old=allposts&Main=913996
#69. To: WRS (#68)
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest