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Title: Did Jews Trick America Into Entering The First World War?
Source: Useless-Knowledge.com
URL Source: http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/apr/article322.html
Published: May 30, 2005
Author: Thomas Keyes
Post Date: 2005-05-30 10:25:50 by Zoroaster
Keywords: Entering, America, Trick
Views: 1120
Comments: 94

Did Jews Trick America Into Entering The First World War?

By Thomas Keyes Apr. 23, 2005

Herbert Asquith was the prime minister of England from 1908-1916, midway into the First World War. His chancellor, David Lloyd George, with the support of his confederates, who were critical of Asquith's direction of the British war effort, managed to topple Asquith, succeeding him as prime minister. David Lloyd George, though an evangelical Christian, like his American counterpart, Woodrow Wilson, was also an ardent Zionist, again like Wilson.

Chaim Weizmann (1874-1952), who would be the first president of Israel, was born in Motol, Russia (now in Belarus) and educated in Switzerland, where he received his Ph.D.in chemistry. Later he taught at Manchester University in England, becoming a British subject in 1910. According to most historical accounts, he helped Britain develop a procedure for producing acetone, a strategically important chemical used in manufacturing explosives, from horse chestnuts. Lloyd George claimed in his memoirs that it was in recognition of this contribution that he issued the Balfour Declaration, sometimes called the birth certificate of the state of Israel. However, historian David Fromkin of Boston University and others call this a fiction. Weizmann does not mention it in his autobiography.

Here is the text of the the Balfour Declaration.

"Foreign Office. November 2nd, 1917. Dear Lord Rothschild.

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

'His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.'

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely. Arthur James Balfour".

If David Lloyd George did not issue the Balfour Declaration to recompense Weizmann's service, as a chemist, to Great Britain, then, why did he issue it? According to some researchers, Lloyd George and Weizmann made a deal. At the time, the war was stalemated. Weizmann agreed, according to this version, to help draw the US into the war on the side of the allies, Britain, France and Russia, tipping the balance in their favor, against Germany, Austria-Hungary (then one country) and Turkey.

It will be remembered, for one thing, that Turkey, or the Ottoman Empire, as it was then called, controlled Palestine, Syria, Lebanon and other parts of the Near East. If England could help found a Jewish state in the region, once it had appropriated it from the Turks, it would afford protection for their shipping through the Suez Canal. Weizmann, for his part, preferred Palestine to uninhabited parts of Uganda, where the Jews had already been offered a homeland. Apparently, Weizmann did not know of the existence of the Sykes-Picot Agreement of 1916, whereby France and England had already drawn a map of the Middle East that they would implement in the event of victory. England had also made conflicting agreements with the Arabs. Don't let Christianity stop anyone from making contradictory promises!

What sparked America's entry into WWI was the Zimmermann telegram, which created a furor in the US, when released to the public on March 1, 1917. This was an encrypted telegram sent on January 16, 1917 by German Foreign Minister, Arthur Zimmermann, to Count von Bernstorff, the German ambassador to the US, to be forwarded to the President of México. Nigel de Grey and William Montgomery, of British intelligence had deciphered the intercepted telegram, according to the official version. The text of the telegram, from "The Zimmermann Telegram" by Barbara Tuchman, published in 1966 by Ballantine Books, follows.

"Most Secret. For Your Excellency's personal information and to be handed on to the Imperial Minister in Mexico.

We intend to begin unrestricted submarine warfare on the first of February. We shall endeavor in spite of this to keep the United States neutral. In the event of this not succeeding, we make Mexico a proposal of an alliance on the following basis: Make war together, make peace together, generous financial support, and an understanding on our part that Mexico is to reconquer the lost territory in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona. The settlement detail is left to you.

You will inform the President (of Mexico) of the above most secretly as soon as the outbreak of war with the United States is certain and add the suggestion that he should, on his own initiative, invite Japan to immediate adherence and at the same time mediate between Japan and ourselves.

Please call the President's attention to the fact that the unrestricted employment of our submarines now offers the prospect of compelling England to make peace within a few months. Acknowledge receipt.

Zimmermann".

Firstly, here the Germans were offering the Mexicans an alliance to be effectuated if and only if the US should enter the war, which clearly the Germans were seeking, and had every reason to seek, to avoid, so that barring US's declaring war, the effect of the telegram would have been null and nil. So if the telegram had not been deciphered, the US might not have entered the war and the proffered alliance would never have come into play. Thus the recommendations of the telegram would have been strictly moot and academic, an historical curiosity.

Secondly, one wonders if it was intended to be taken seriously. Could México have had even the remotest dream of recovering Texas, New Mexico and Arizona? Venustiano Carranza, the Mexican president, rejected the offer, as attractive as one might imagine he may have considered it.

But the question here is how the telegram came to be decoded. The Germans, whom four years of wartime intelligence and espionage had made experts in cryptology, had encoded the telegram in a recently created code, Code 7500. According to some authorities, there had not been enough messages transmitted in Code 7500 for the British to have been able to decipher the telegram. These same authorities see the hand of Chaim Weizmann in this piece of treachery.

Weizmann had connections in Germany in high places. Some authorities think that Weizmann may have been instrumental in getting one of the influential Jews in Germany to obtain Code 7500 from the German Foreign Ministry and to betray it to the British, which, of course, would have been a treasonable act. Anyway, the decipherment did accomplish the desired result of drawing the US needlessly into the war, thereby assuring an allied victory. Thus, the Ottoman Empire, including Palestine, came into Anglo-French hands, and the British were able to fulfill the promise made in the Balfour Declaration, in spite of their contradictory promises to the Arabs. Later the Balfour Declaration was introduced in US Congress by Hamilton Fish of New York and adopted.

With Jewish control of the US media and publishing industry, this view of the events leading to American's entry into WWI has been played down or silenced for decades, but certainly provides a believable explanation. Winston Churchill later only vaguely alluded to such a deal, and was reluctant to abide by it. When asked by William Yale, of the US State Department what the Jews would do if the British failed to live up to their agreement, Chaim Weizmann retorted, "If they don’t, we’ll smash the British Empire like we smashed the Russian Empire.”

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#49. To: 1776 (#47)

#13

"...

In order that the masses themselves may not guess what they are about WE FURTHER DISTRACT THEM WITH AMUSEMENTS, GAMES, PASTIMES, PASSIONS, PEOPLE'S PALACES .... SOON WE SHALL BEGIN THROUGH THE PRESS TO PROPOSE COMPETITIONS IN ART, IN SPORT IN ALL KINDS: these interests will finally distract their minds from questions in which we should find ourselves compelled to oppose them.

..."

wbales  posted on  2005-05-30   21:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: 1776 (#49)

Hey, wait,...I'm sorry, 1776...pay no attention to that forgery.

;>)

wbales  posted on  2005-05-30   21:42:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Burkeman1 (#2)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/Brandeis.html

Louis Brandeis was born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1856 to a family tolerant of Jewish and Christian rituals. In later life Brandeis might be best described as a secular­humanist. Although he completed his secondary education in Germany, he returned to the United States where he studied law at Harvard. After settling in Boston, Brandeis became a successful lawyer spending a good deal of his time pursuing cases with a political bent. In particular, he enjoyed representing small companies against giant corporations, and aiding the cause of the minimum wage against companies opposed to this principle. In 1912, he supported Woodrow Wilson's nomination for Presidency and in 1916, was appointed a Supreme Court judge, the first Jew ever to be appointed to this position.

Brandeis showed little interest in Jewish affairs until the turn of the century when a combination of his professional work and a changing political climate brought about an alteration. He was introduced to Zionism by Jacob de Haas, an English Zionist, and later still by Aaron Aaronsohn, the Palestinian botanist and founder of Nili.

Brandeis became active in Zionist affairs during the First World War, when he accepted the role of Chairperson of the Provisional Executive Committee for General Zionist Affairs. Brandeis had a major impact on the American branch of the Zionist movement, drawing to it a number of sympathizers, improving its organization and its finance.

Whilst he resigned his official position on joining the Supreme Court, he nonetheless worked behind the scenes to influence President Woodrow Wilson to support the Zionist cause. After the war, Brandeis headed a delegation of American Zionists to London where at a conference differences emerged between Chaim Weizmann and himself. These arguments over the role of the organization and its pursuit of political activities caused a rift between the two leaders with Weizmann gaining the upper hand. Brandeis withdrew from Zionist activity although he continued to take part in Eretz­Israel economic affairs. Brandeis did intervene from time to time in political matters for example he appealed to Roosevelt to oppose the British partition scheme of 1937 calling instead for the whole area of Eretz­Israel to become a Jewish National Home.

Brandeis represented a rather different genre of Zionism, one born out of the American context that affirmed Zionism as part of American ethnic identity. It was Brandeis who coined the term that "to be a good American meant that local Jews should be Zionists."

He died in Washington, D.C. in 1941.

honway  posted on  2005-05-30   22:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: honway (#51)

Whilst he resigned his official position on joining the Supreme Court, he nonetheless worked behind the scenes to influence President Woodrow Wilson to support the Zionist cause.

Hmm I vaguely remember something about this.. IF I remember correctly did he not 'blackmail' Wilson regarding his involvement in some way with a woman?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-30   22:31:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: honway (#51)

And, seemingly overnight, the federal media became a war party propaganda machine. And, the American sheeple went "BBBAAAAAAAAHHHH".

wbales  posted on  2005-05-30   22:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Zipporah (#52)

IF I remember correctly did he not 'blackmail' Wilson regarding his involvement in some way with a woman?

It was very successful.

So much so it appears today being "compromised" is a prerequisite for high government office;hence, the Jeff Gannons and Franklin Cover-ups.

honway  posted on  2005-05-30   22:49:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: wbales (#53)

And, seemingly overnight, the federal media became a war party propaganda machine. And, the American sheeple went "BBBAAAAAAAAHHHH".

'Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it'.

honway  posted on  2005-05-30   22:50:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: honway (#54)

It was very successful.

So much so it appears today being "compromised" is a prerequisite for high government office;hence, the Jeff Gannons and Franklin Cover-ups.

True.. and the set up the situations for future 'need'.. sickening really..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-05-30   23:01:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: wbales, robin (#50)

pay no attention to that forgery.

Just because it matches today's world events doesn't mean its true you know. ;)

1776  posted on  2005-05-31   11:44:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Burkeman1 (#35)

Yeah- where their agenda was what exactly? Making movies like "Moses" and all sorts of bible stories that Christians loved?

Moses was a Jew. An "Old Testament Jew", who was non-threatening to Christians, certainly, but a Jew nonetheless.

It's not like they made a movie about Ganesh or Vishnu.

Indrid Cold  posted on  2005-06-01   1:36:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Indrid Cold (#58)

Moses was a Jew. An "Old Testament Jew", who was non-threatening to Christians, certainly, but a Jew nonetheless.

Moses was an Israelite/Hebrew ... and NEVER WAS HE A JEW ... There were NO CHRISTIANS at the time of Moses ...

The people calling themselves Jews today (90%) are in actuallity not at all ethnically related to Moses or Abraham or Jesus. They are Eastern European Mongols that adopted the religion of Judaism in the mid 8th Century AD.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:02:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Burkeman1 (#24)

But I am not going to entertian tired old tripe about the Rothschilds or Jew bankers behind massive world conspiracies or protocols

My "jew" detector is flashing incessantly !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:20:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Burkeman1 (#2)

Jews were still rag pickers and garment workers in 1917 for the most part in America.

Defenders of the poor, poor, persecuted jews ... nonsense.

Funny how Arator and Burkeman jumped on this at exactly the same moment.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:25:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: noone222 (#59)

Moses, if he existed at all, was a Levite. In the OT ancient Israel was a confederation of twelve tribes generally traced to Jacob's twelve sons -- six by Leah (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, two by Rachael (Joseph, Benjamin), two by Rachel's maid Bihah (Dan, Naphtali, and two by Leah's maid Zilpha (Gad, Asjer; the name Israel has been given to Jacob after the story of his wrestling with a divine being.

Life is a tragety to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-06-01   7:26:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: noone222, Burkeman1 (#60)

But I am not going to entertian tired old tripe about the Rothschilds or Jew bankers behind massive world conspiracies or protocols.

Signed,

Lord Burkemanstein.

Yep, he's super sensative about this subject matter.

Eoghan  posted on  2005-06-01   7:29:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: All (#62)

two by Rachel's maid Bihah (Dan, Naphtali, and two by Leah's maid Zilpha (Gad, Asjer; the name Israel has been given to Jacob after the story of his wrestling with a divine being.

CORRECTION

two by Rachel's maid Bihah (Dan, Naphali) and two by Leah's maid Zilpha (Gad, Asher);. . ..

Life is a tragety to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-06-01   7:37:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Arator (#14)

ignore the inbred Anglo elite war-wagers

You appear to be an "anti-anglo" jew propagandist ...

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:39:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Zipporah (#20)

Written: Richard Perle, James Colbert, Charles Fairbanks, Jr., Douglas Feith, Robert Loewenberg, David Wurmser, and Meyrav Wurmser participated.

The "Synagogue of Satan"

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:41:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: 1776 (#27)

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." John Sheehan, S.J. (a Jesuit priest)

Simple Logic is "BRILLIANCE" emancipated !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:42:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Zoroaster (#62)

Moses, if he existed at all, was a Levite. In the OT ancient Israel was a confederation of twelve tribes generally traced to Jacob's twelve sons -- six by Leah (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulun, two by Rachael (Joseph, Benjamin), two by Rachel's maid Bihah (Dan, Naphtali, and two by Leah's maid Zilpha (Gad, Asjer; the name Israel has been given to Jacob after the story of his wrestling with a divine being.

I'm up to speed on your analysis of the Tribes of Israel and where they got their names. These Tribes having nothing whatsoever to do with modern Jewry from an ethnic perspective because 90% of modern Jewry are Ashkenazi Jews ... and are descendants of religious converts not ethnic Jews or Hebrews descended from The Tribes, Moses, or Abraham.

All of the hocus pocus related to the current trespassers in Israel being Abraham's descendants and therefore inheiritors of the Promised land is just so much bullshit spewed by zionazis.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   7:54:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: noone222, 1776, All (#67)

"Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East." John Sheehan, S.J. (a Jesuit priest)

Simple Logic is "BRILLIANCE" emancipated !

That simple statement would give the sheeple something to think about, if they ever managed to hear it.

robin  posted on  2005-06-01   9:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: noone222 (#61)

Funny how Arator and Burkeman jumped on this at exactly the same moment.

No, it isn't funny. See- my Jew Conspiracy decoder ring with built in two way communication allowed me and my fellow Jew conspirator to coordinate our psyops assault on this thread. You get the ring along with your packets poison for dropping in village wells at your bar mitsvah- when the Elders lay out "the plan" to you and assign you your role.

Congrats, first person on 4Rum to go on my Bozo list.

Burkeman1  posted on  2005-06-01   9:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Arator (#21)

Jew-obsessors,...

Why, exactly, do you think someone would be a "Jew-obsessor"? What would cause that?

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-01   9:30:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Burkeman1, 1776, Zoroaster, Arator, Indrid Cold, christine, robin, zipporah, Eoghan (#24)

But I am not going to entertian tired old tripe about the Rothschilds or Jew bankers behind massive world conspiracies or protocols or how the black plauge was a jew plot or whatever.

In post #47, 1776 said:

“How is it that much less than 2% of the population also are the commissioners of all 5 major pro sports leagues? I mean 5 out of 5, check it out for yourself, the NBA, the NFL, the NHL, Major League Baseball, Major League Soccer, and they say that there is nothing going on?”.

Responding to that in post #49 above, I posted an excerpt from the 13th Protocol of Zion:

“…In order that the masses themselves may not guess what they are about WE FURTHER DISTRACT THEM WITH AMUSEMENTS, GAMES, PASTIMES, PASSIONS, PEOPLE'S PALACES .... SOON WE SHALL BEGIN THROUGH THE PRESS TO PROPOSE COMPETITIONS IN ART, IN SPORT IN ALL KINDS: these interests will finally distract their minds from questions in which we should find ourselves compelled to oppose them.”

Is this type observation what you consider to be “tired old tripe”? Do you consider this observation/connection to be totally invalid and/or unreasonable?

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-01   9:44:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: wbales (#72)

Congrats, number 2.

Burkeman1  posted on  2005-06-01   9:44:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Burkeman1 (#73)

Is this type observation what you consider to be “tired old tripe”? Do you consider this observation/connection to be totally invalid and/or unreasonable?

Congrats, number 2.

I'll take that as a "Yes". :>)

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-01   9:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: 1776 (#31)

There ought to be a law to silence these people just like in France, Germany, Canada, Australia, and elsewhere.
Free Speech is fine, but needs to be severely restricted.

God forbid us looking beyond the U.S. Constitution and to other nations for such laws.

Nobody censors speech they agree with

NOLAJBS  posted on  2005-06-01   9:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Burkeman1 (#73)

I think what you are seeing is an attempt to understand patterns. Some have already come to conclusions about these particular patterns. Others are still forming an opinion. Still others have no opinion.

My point is, discussing these patterns, or connecting these dots, should remain open.

Chertoff, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith, Abrams, Zakheim and others have been appointed by this administration. And some of them have dual-citizenship with Israel. Given their positions, and our govt's policy trends, their loyalties should be scrutinized.

The MSM is not even looking at these people or the potential for treason.
This forum is one of the few places trying to air these ideas. If sometimes one or two of us come across too strong, it is out of the frustration that these ideas are stifled everywhere else.

robin  posted on  2005-06-01   9:56:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: wbales (#74)

ah, the clever zionists and their feigned innocence. How amusing.

Yeah....it's all just a huge coincidence, with amazing, uncanny consistency and organization. And lets face it, all the evidence we have of this, is just to be ignored.

who you gonna believe, some anonymous 'expert', or your own lyin' eyes?

actually, the incredible protestations given in the face of these facts was what tipped me off.

playing the victim is the tactic of one who has no substance to refute an argument. It is a mode of deception.

Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-06-01   10:03:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: gengis gandhi (#77)

actually, the incredible protestations given in the face of these facts was what tipped me off.

Such as being Bozoed for asking a rational question in a civil manner.

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-01   10:04:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: wbales (#78)

sure, it's always the victim game.

an appeal to emotion, devoid of reason or fact.

this is the method you use when you're not about discussing the facts, but STOPPING the discussion altogether.

and now, class, who has a motive to do such a thing?

those who benefit.

and, class, who benefits from stifling legitimate criticism about certain behavior, certain collusion and power/control consolidation?

oh, lets just say the group that has it's members in such positions.

and, class, which group might this be, based on evidence and fact?

ta-da.

pretty easy to dismantle.

Whenever people ask me, 'hey, you know what you should do? I always say 'What? Buy a monkey?'

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-06-01   10:10:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Burkeman1 (#70)

Congrats, first person on 4Rum to go on my Bozo list.

Thanks !

Your buddy was quoting the Jewish Encyclopedia earlier ... do you have one too ?

noone222  posted on  2005-06-01   14:38:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: noone222 (#59)

Moses was an Israelite/Hebrew ... and NEVER WAS HE A JEW ... There were NO CHRISTIANS at the time of Moses

Moses was most certainly a Jew. Judaism predated Christianity, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was a Jew. Quibbling over whether he should be called an Israelite or Hebrew is just semantics.

I agree, however, that most people who call themselves "Jews" today are the descendants of converts, not relatives of Moses or Abraham.

Indrid Cold  posted on  2005-06-03   2:29:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Indrid Cold (#81)

Moses was most certainly a Jew. Judaism predated Christianity, as evidenced by the fact that Jesus was a Jew. Quibbling over whether he should be called an Israelite or Hebrew is just semantics.

Judaism was not in existence at the time of Moses. Judaism is based upon the Babylonian Talmud that was carried back to Palestine/Jerusalem "from" Babylon "AFTER" the second captivity of the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin, and didn't exist at the time of Moses. This religious philosophy called Judaism didn't exist among the Israelites until after the time of Solomon, which was long after the time of Moses.

As far as Jesus was concerned he said this about the Babylonian Talmud (Traditions of Men/Elders)... "Your law makes my father's law of no effect"

Take a closer look at your Bible and reflect on the comments that Jesus made to the Pharisees. The Pharisees of Christ's time are today the Rabbis of Judaism that study the Babylonian Talmud, and have done so in an unbroken historical line.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-03   6:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Bayonne (#72)

FYI

If you love America, you'll hate Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-23   8:17:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Zoroaster (#0)

This raises the temptation of "what if" history. What if we had entered the war in 1915, and it had ended earlier?

There would be no Israel, there would be no Jewish-Palestinian conflict, and maybe German suspicion of Jewish betrayal might not have contributed to hatred that brought about the holocaust.

France and England would still have divided up Arabia, but there would have been no betrayal of Arabs fighting on their side to do that. And the Arabs would have kicked them out, as they did do.

Hell, we lost the first world war.

Gene Douglas  posted on  2006-08-26   19:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Gene Douglas (#84)

interesting hypothesis to consider, Gene.

welcome to 4!

"Freedom4um" -- The Forum for Real Americans and where America and Americans are always First!

christine  posted on  2006-08-26   19:47:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Zoroaster (#4)

Not a shot had been fired on German soil. Not one enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany.

This is patently untrue. See the battles of Tannenberg and the Masurian Lakes.

Now any judge, when he charges a jury, says, "Gentlemen, any witness who you find has told a single lie, you can disregard all his testimony." I don't know what state you come from, but in New York state that is the way a judge addresses a jury. If that witness told one lie, disregard his testimony.

Enough said.

DeaconBenjamin  posted on  2006-08-26   20:14:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Arator, Zoroaster, All (#23)

Zoroaster: More than 1,600 American soldiers have been played to death fighting Israel's enemies in Iraq.

Arator: Anglo-American elitists are profiting more from their deaths than Israel ever will.

The point is that we would not be in Iraq in the first place were it not for the lobby efforts of AIPAC and IsraeliFirsters in very important policy level positions within the government eg. Feith and Wolfowitz to name but a few

That other lobby groups were also happy for the US to invade Iraq - military defense industry - ( eg. Haliburton, Bechtel) is true and yes, this group is reaping considerable profits.

However, the military industry lobby groups could not get the US to invade Iraq. That decision came as a result of the power and influence of Israel lobbyists both AIPAC and gov't policy makers.

a. Here's some cut and paste from Mearsheimer and Walt, defending their research paper's conclusions:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n09/le tters.html

"...We also explicitly stated that the lobby, by itself, could not convince either the Clinton or the Bush administration to invade Iraq. Nevertheless, there is abundant evidence that the neo-conservatives and other groups within the lobby played a central role in making the case for war..."

"...Probably the most popular argument made about a countervailing force is Herf and Markovits’s claim that the centrepiece of US Middle East policy is oil, not Israel. There is no question that access to that region’s oil is a vital US strategic interest. Washington is also deeply committed to supporting Israel. Thus, the relevant question is, how does each of those interests affect US policy? We maintain that US policy in the Middle East is driven primarily by the commitment to Israel, not oil interests. If the oil companies or the oil- producing countries were driving policy, Washington would be tempted to favour the Palestinians instead of Israel. Moreover, the United States would almost certainly not have gone to war against Iraq in March 2003, and the Bush administration would not be threatening to use military force against Iran. Although many claim that the Iraq war was all about oil, there is hardly any evidence to support that supposition, and much evidence of the lobby’s influence. Oil is clearly an important concern for US policymakers, but with the exception of episodes like the 1973 Opec oil embargo, the US commitment to Israel has yet to threaten access to oil. It does, however, contribute to America’s terrorism problem, complicates its efforts to halt nuclear proliferation, and helped get the United States involved in wars like Iraq..."

b. Also here's some cut and paste from M & W's first submission re: their research study, which amplies on the Israeli lobbying efforts both "from without and within" that pressured/manipulated the WH to invade Iraq:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/me ar01_.html

"...Pressure from Israel and the Lobby was not the only factor behind the decision to attack Iraq in March 2003, but it was critical. Some Americans believe that this was a war for oil, but there is hardly any direct evidence to support this claim. Instead, the war was motivated in good part by a desire to make Israel more secure. According to Philip Zelikow, a former member of the president’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board, the executive director of the 9/11 Commission, and now a counsellor to Condoleezza Rice, the ‘real threat’ from Iraq was not a threat to the United States. The ‘unstated threat’ was the ‘threat against Israel’, Zelikow told an audience at the University of Virginia in September 2002. ‘The American government,’ he added, ‘doesn’t want to lean too hard on it rhetorically, because it is not a popular sell.’

On 16 August 2002, 11 days before Dick Cheney kicked off the campaign for war with a hardline speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars, the Washington Post reported that ‘Israel is urging US officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq’s Saddam Hussein.’ By this point, according to Sharon, strategic co-ordination between Israel and the US had reached ‘unprecedented dimensions’, and Israeli intelligence officials had given Washington a variety of alarming reports about Iraq’s WMD programmes. As one retired Israeli general later put it, ‘Israeli intelligence was a full partner to the picture presented by American and British intelligence regarding Iraq’s non-conventional capabilities.’

Israeli leaders were deeply distressed when Bush decided to seek Security Council authorisation for war, and even more worried when Saddam agreed to let UN inspectors back in. ‘The campaign against Saddam Hussein is a must,’ Shimon Peres told reporters in September 2002. ‘Inspections and inspectors are good for decent people, but dishonest people can overcome easily inspections and inspectors.’

At the same time, Ehud Barak wrote a New York Times op-ed warning that ‘the greatest risk now lies in inaction.’ His predecessor as prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, published a similar piece in the Wall Street Journal, entitled: ‘The Case for Toppling Saddam’. ‘Today nothing less than dismantling his regime will do,’ he declared. ‘I believe I speak for the overwhelming majority of Israelis in supporting a pre-emptive strike against Saddam’s regime.’ Or as Ha’aretz reported in February 2003, ‘the military and political leadership yearns for war in Iraq.’

As Netanyahu suggested, however, the desire for war was not confined to Israel’s leaders. Apart from Kuwait, which Saddam invaded in 1990, Israel was the only country in the world where both politicians and public favoured war. As the journalist Gideon Levy observed at the time, ‘Israel is the only country in the West whose leaders support the war unreservedly and where no alternative opinion is voiced.’ In fact, Israelis were so gung-ho that their allies in America told them to damp down their rhetoric, or it would look as if the war would be fought on Israel’s behalf.

Within the US, the main driving force behind the war was a small band of neo- conservatives, many with ties to Likud. But leaders of the Lobby’s major organisations lent their voices to the campaign. ‘As President Bush attempted to sell the . . . war in Iraq,’ the Forward reported, ‘America’s most important Jewish organisations rallied as one to his defence. In statement after statement community leaders stressed the need to rid the world of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction.’ The editorial goes on to say that ‘concern for Israel’s safety rightfully factored into the deliberations of the main Jewish groups.’...The neo-conservatives had been determined to topple Saddam even before Bush became president. They caused a stir early in 1998 by publishing two open letters to Clinton, calling for Saddam’s removal from power. The signatories, many of whom had close ties to pro-Israel groups like JINSA or WINEP, and who included Elliot Abrams, John Bolton, Douglas Feith, William Kristol, Bernard Lewis, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz, had little trouble persuading the Clinton administration to adopt the general goal of ousting Saddam. But they were unable to sell a war to achieve that objective. They were no more able to generate enthusiasm for invading Iraq in the early months of the Bush administration. They needed help to achieve their aim. That help arrived with 9/11. Specifically, the events of that day led Bush and Cheney to reverse course and become strong proponents of a preventive war.

At a key meeting with Bush at Camp David on 15 September, Wolfowitz advocated attacking Iraq before Afghanistan, even though there was no evidence that Saddam was involved in the attacks on the US and bin Laden was known to be in Afghanistan. Bush rejected his advice and chose to go after Afghanistan instead, but war with Iraq was now regarded as a serious possibility and on 21 November the president charged military planners with developing concrete plans for an invasion.

Other neo-conservatives were meanwhile at work in the corridors of power. We don’t have the full story yet, but scholars like Bernard Lewis of Princeton and Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins reportedly played important roles in persuading Cheney that war was the best option, though neo-conservatives on his staff – Eric Edelman, John Hannah and Scooter Libby, Cheney’s chief of staff and one of the most powerful individuals in the administration – also played their part. By early 2002 Cheney had persuaded Bush; and with Bush and Cheney on board, war was inevitable...Outside the administration, neo-conservative pundits lost no time in making the case that invading Iraq was essential to winning the war on terrorism. Their efforts were designed partly to keep up the pressure on Bush, and partly to overcome opposition to the war inside and outside the government. On 20 September, a group of prominent neo-conservatives and their allies published another open letter: ‘Even if evidence does not link Iraq directly to the attack,’ it read, ‘any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq.’ The letter also reminded Bush that ‘Israel has been and remains America’s staunchest ally against international terrorism.’ In the 1 October issue of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan and William Kristol called for regime change in Iraq as soon as the Taliban was defeated. That same day, Charles Krauthammer argued in the Washington Post that after the US was done with Afghanistan, Syria should be next, followed by Iran and Iraq: ‘The war on terrorism will conclude in Baghdad,’ when we finish off ‘the most dangerous terrorist regime in the world’.

This was the beginning of an unrelenting public relations campaign to win support for an invasion of Iraq, a crucial part of which was the manipulation of intelligence in such a way as to make it seem as if Saddam posed an imminent threat. For example, Libby pressured CIA analysts to find evidence supporting the case for war and helped prepare Colin Powell’s now discredited briefing to the UN Security Council. Within the Pentagon, the Policy Counterterrorism Evaluation Group was charged with finding links between al-Qaida and Iraq that the intelligence community had supposedly missed. Its two key members were David Wurmser, a hard-core neo-conservative, and Michael Maloof, a Lebanese- American with close ties to Perle. Another Pentagon group, the so-called Office of Special Plans, was given the task of uncovering evidence that could be used to sell the war. It was headed by Abram Shulsky, a neo-conservative with long- standing ties to Wolfowitz, and its ranks included recruits from pro-Israel think tanks. Both these organisations were created after 9/11 and reported directly to Douglas Feith.

Like virtually all the neo-conservatives, Feith is deeply committed to Israel; he also has long-term ties to Likud. He wrote articles in the 1990s supporting the settlements and arguing that Israel should retain the Occupied Territories. More important, along with Perle and Wurmser, he wrote the famous ‘Clean Break’ report in June 1996 for Netanyahu, who had just become prime minister. Among other things, it recommended that Netanyahu ‘focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq – an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right’. It also called for Israel to take steps to reorder the entire Middle East. Netanyahu did not follow their advice, but Feith, Perle and Wurmser were soon urging the Bush administration to pursue those same goals. The Ha’aretz columnist Akiva Eldar warned that Feith and Perle ‘are walking a fine line between their loyalty to American governments . . . and Israeli interests’.

Wolfowitz is equally committed to Israel. The Forward once described him as ‘the most hawkishly pro-Israel voice in the administration’, and selected him in 2002 as first among 50 notables who ‘have consciously pursued Jewish activism’. At about the same time, JINSA gave Wolfowitz its Henry M. Jackson Distinguished Service Award for promoting a strong partnership between Israel and the United States; and the Jerusalem Post, describing him as ‘devoutly pro- Israel’, named him ‘Man of the Year’ in 2003.

Finally, a brief word is in order about the neo-conservatives’ prewar support of Ahmed Chalabi, the unscrupulous Iraqi exile who headed the Iraqi National Congress. They backed Chalabi because he had established close ties with Jewish- American groups and had pledged to foster good relations with Israel once he gained power. This was precisely what pro-Israel proponents of regime change wanted to hear. Matthew Berger laid out the essence of the bargain in the Jewish Journal: ‘The INC saw improved relations as a way to tap Jewish influence in Washington and Jerusalem and to drum up increased support for its cause. For their part, the Jewish groups saw an opportunity to pave the way for better relations between Israel and Iraq, if and when the INC is involved in replacing Saddam Hussein’s regime.’

Given the neo-conservatives’ devotion to Israel, their obsession with Iraq, and their influence in the Bush administration, it isn’t surprising that many Americans suspected that the war was designed to further Israeli interests. Last March, Barry Jacobs of the American Jewish Committee acknowledged that the belief that Israel and the neo-conservatives had conspired to get the US into a war in Iraq was ‘pervasive’ in the intelligence community. Yet few people would say so publicly, and most of those who did – including Senator Ernest Hollings and Representative James Moran – were condemned for raising the issue. Michael Kinsley wrote in late 2002 that ‘the lack of public discussion about the role of Israel . . . is the proverbial elephant in the room.’ The reason for the reluctance to talk about it, he observed, was fear of being labelled an anti- semite. There is little doubt that Israel and the Lobby were key factors in the decision to go to war. It’s a decision the US would have been far less likely to take without their efforts. And the war itself was intended to be only the first step. A front-page headline in the Wall Street Journal shortly after the war began says it all: ‘President’s Dream: Changing Not Just Regime but a Region: A Pro-US, Democratic Area Is a Goal that Has Israeli and Neo- Conservative Roots.'

c. Also there's more from above article that speaks directly to Clean Break and what Sharon wanted and how they envisioned an invasion of Iraq would benefit Israel ( though that back-fired as we know now):

"...By the late 1990s, however, the neo-conservatives were arguing that dual containment was not enough and that regime change in Iraq was essential. By toppling Saddam and turning Iraq into a vibrant democracy, they argued, the US would trigger a far-reaching process of change throughout the Middle East. The same line of thinking was evident in the ‘Clean Break’ study the neo- conservatives wrote for Netanyahu. By 2002, when an invasion of Iraq was on the front-burner, regional transformation was an article of faith in neo- conservative circles.

Charles Krauthammer describes this grand scheme as the brainchild of Natan Sharansky, but Israelis across the political spectrum believed that toppling Saddam would alter the Middle East to Israel’s advantage. Aluf Benn reported in Ha’aretz (17 February 2003):

Senior IDF officers and those close to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, such as National Security Adviser Ephraim Halevy, paint a rosy picture of the wonderful future Israel can expect after the war. They envision a domino effect, with the fall of Saddam Hussein followed by that of Israel’s other enemies . . . Along with these leaders will disappear terror and weapons of mass destruction..."

d. I have no problem with AIPAC et al as registering themselves as "foreign agent lobby groups." But they should not be allowed to function as they do today.

Similarly, I have no problem with dual citizens being hired to positions at lower levels of the federal civil service. But dual citizens should not be allowed to fill policy level positions within the US gov't, federal or state.

scrapper2  posted on  2006-08-26   20:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Gene Douglas (#84)

Interesting thoughts.

There have been editorials, books and even a movie with Rutger Hauer about what the world might have been like if Germany had won WWII, but nothing like that about WWI.

Welcome to 4!

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-26   20:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: scrapper2 (#87)

Senior IDF officers and those close to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, such as National Security Adviser Ephraim Halevy, paint a rosy picture of the wonderful future Israel can expect after the war. They envision a domino effect, with the fall of Saddam Hussein followed by that of Israel’s other enemies . . . Along with these leaders will disappear terror and weapons of mass destruction..."

Strike that, and plan B, C and D.

"If there’s another 9/11 or a major war in the Middle-East involving a U.S. attack on Iran, I have no doubt that there will be, the day after or within days an equivalent of a Reichstag fire decree that will involve massive detentions in this country."

- Daniel Ellsberg Author, Pentagon Papers

robin  posted on  2006-08-26   20:45:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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