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Dead Constitution
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Title: Who is liable for the Income Tax, and, why?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://famguardian.org/Publications ... aradigm/TheGalileoParadigm.pdf
Published: Sep 18, 2007
Author: Adele Weiss
Post Date: 2007-09-18 12:45:35 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 1232
Comments: 118

Societal Presumptions made by lenient minded Aemrican Nationals

Interesting statement, is it not? This; http://famguardian.org/Publications/GalileoParadigm/TheGalileoParadigm.pdf

is a PDF file that I would recommend that you download, print, and study until you 'get it.' And, you should turn first to Chapter 2, Application for SSN and what it means.

If, IF, you will simply read this info, you will never be confused again about what is going on the so-called Tax Protest movement. I guarentee it. And, you will never be swindled into paying for de-taxing material either! Why? Because, probably for the first time in your life, you will understand the basis of the Income Tax, the Social Security program, and, not least of all, socialism. But, that is your choice, to understand or not, so, please, make a wise one.

Click for Full Text! Subscribe to *CAFR*

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#1. To: richard9151 (#0)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-09-18   12:53:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's real simple. Who? Your ass. Why? Because they'll toss your ass in jail if you don't pay.

Esp. if you have a BAR card. But as to others, not hardly. I have many, many friends who do not and have not paid for many, many years. Most not as long as I, but for a long time for many of them.

The problem, my friend, is if this info is correct, then the entire fraud of the system that you work in becomes very, very clear. And, understand this, it is very clear to me.

I posted the info on the Enabling Act of Social Security, which is clearly defined as an (THE) Income Tax. I doubt you read it. Pity. So, I would suggest that you read Chapter 2 in this PDF file. May, MAY, just change your view point.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-18   12:59:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2007-09-18   13:50:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's real simple. Who? Your ass. Why? Because they'll toss your ass in jail if you don't pay.

End of analysis.

Bingo.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-18   16:30:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm not arguing that the income tax, as presently conducted, is illegal

You had better not argue that, because it is not illegal. It is a contractual relationship, and where you work, in the contract enforcement tribunals, is where the contracts behind the Income Tax are brought into play. This is why, in none of those tribunals, is there ever any law requiring the Income Tax ever brought up.

It is fraudulent, in that the nature of what is going on is never revealed, but, illegal? Not hardly.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-18   18:16:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Who is liable for the Income Tax, and, why?

Here you go!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   10:23:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

you will understand the basis of the Income Tax, the Social Security program

They are as intertwined as a man and his wife in the "throes of passion".

The SS program is voluntary. The IT is mandatory for those that "volunteer" for the SS program. Simple as that. Those that DON'T have a SS# are defined in the IR Code (though not quite so bluntly) as NON TAXPAYERS. NOT "tax protesters", "tax evaders", or any of a plethora of other things - but as a LEGAL Non-Taxpayer. No hassles, just a totally different "class" or "status".

Gee, freedom is wonderful. We're perfectly free to allow our ignorance to bind us in a contract which will forever more cause us misery and a reason to complain...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-09-24   10:41:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem is this fellas.

The banksters and the DOJ/federal judiciary refuses to acknowledge the right to contract our services to any corporation without walking through the looking glass of IRS enclave jurisdiction.

As far as they're concerned there is no legal way to sell my services to a corporation unless I'm an "employee" or a contractor with an ID # that is used to 1099 me at the end of the year.

So, if the govt has in effect outlawed the common law right to work without their jurisdiction, and all of the monies disbursed by a corporation are govt revenues and subject to the tax, then, the coercive nature of this fraud renders any innocent claim that the tax is "a voluntary contract" disingenuous.

According to the IRS a "corporation" can't stop and buy a glass of lemonade or a newspaper with corporate money if the lemonade or news vendor is a bootlegger and has no license to sell to a corporation.

I tried to paint a tax lawyer into a corner by asking her if my kids' lemonade stand was subject to the income tax. She said it was.

In other words any transaction between any two parties of any age or alleged status within the continental US is a taxable event and the IRS has the power to come in, toss the place, line people up and handcuff them while they use a subpoena to determine the amount of the deficiency.

And, nowhere in any IRS, DOJ or federal district, appeals or supreme court literature or decisions will you find your assertion that SS is voluntary and one may go about their life with no involvement in it.

The fact that one may extrapolate that position after hundreds of hours of study does not constitute black letter law that then relieves the govt of any responsibility for the fraud they've perpetrated against the people.

And, the fact that most judges would not allow either of you to assert that position to your own juries in criminal trials is proof enough that your self assuredness on the subject is reckless, and is ample proof that neither of you have ever tried to beat the rap which you seem to think is just a walk in the park.

The whole IRS Code was written to obfuscate the voluntary nature of the income tax (which includes social security in subtitle C) and no judge will allow a defendant to lead a jury through the necessary steps to illuminate that fact.

And when lawyers like Larry Becraft and that feller in Louisiana do win, they do so because they or their clients asked good faith questions which the IRS never answered, not because they were allowed to detail the fraudulent scheme in open court.

Time and time again when jurors ask to see the law they receive replies from judges that read "I have given you the law".

When have you ever heard of a jury deliberating a social security or income tax case while referring to Title 26 in the jury room?

They are not allowed to see the code and they would not be allowed to deliberate about your "theory of operation" regarding the "voluntary" nature of social security. Nor would either of you be permitted to hand the jurors an outline that details the progression of steps used to reach that conclusion.

So, what good is a theory of law if you are never going to be allowed to offer it in evidence?

Usually when I ask these questions I'm told how stoopid I am. This is because armchair experts don't like to be told that their justice only exists in a parallel universe that no jury will ever see....

Now, you may preach it all you like, but the courtroom is where the rubber meets the road and it will not do you a bit of good there.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-24   17:40:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And, nowhere in any IRS, DOJ or federal district, appeals or supreme court literature or decisions will you find your assertion that SS is voluntary and one may go about their life with no involvement in it.

I always love someone who comments without reading the material. Tickles me pink, one might say.

As a matter of fact, if you know where to look, there are cases that state exactly what you say is never stated, and no, since you have no interest in reading the material, I am not going to go and look it up for you. If you are interested, log into Family Forums and enjoy. They have a wealth of on-point info that covers about all contingencies.

As to the other part, no, you can not deal with corporations and be free. Just a fact of life. On the other hand, I know, personally, dozens of people who exist quite well, thank you, including myself, without any Social Security number. And have for many years. The problem is that people will not make a decision to be free, so they can not be.

Since the juries that you mention are actually, in any tribunal 'within the U.S.', an advisery panel and ARE NOT A JURY, why would they be allowed to debate the law when all they are doing is advising the judge on the matters before the tribunal, which is, in all cases, contracts? Which, by the way, is all that the tribunal has the authority to address.

This comes down, in the final analysis, to understanding the difference between 'rights' and 'civil' rights, which are as different as day and night. And if you do not understand that difference, then we probably should not be having this conversation.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   18:33:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I know, personally, dozens of people who exist quite well, thank you, including myself, without any Social Security number

Well duh.....you claim to live in Mexico......

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   19:57:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well duh.....you claim to live in Mexico......

I don't.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-24   19:59:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And when they system wants to cage you they will. No crime need be violated; no defense accepted.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   20:02:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And when they system wants to cage you they will. No crime need be violated; no defense accepted.

Fuck the system, fuck Bush, and fuck anyone that thinks I have to support murderers and thieves or retired govt. toadies.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-24   20:06:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No offense but, I've read everything the govt has printed since I began in the movement in 1983, and I know bullshit when I see it.

But, since you're the guy who is NEVER MISTAKEN, one can assume that you cannot produce this material because it doesn't exist.

If it did you should (and probably would) make it part of your presentation, or at least a link to it.

But, like the wild eyed theory that a jury is "an advisery (sic) panel" this only has relevance in the place you visit when you click your heels together three times and say....

Have you ever beaten the IRS? Well, I have. And I didn't do it by listening to shit for brains "warriors" who offer free, anonymous legal advice and berate me if I don't take it.

How much do you charge for your advice?

Well, that's how much it's worth.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-24   20:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Fuck the system, fuck Bush, and fuck anyone that thinks I have to support murderers and thieves or retired govt. toadies.

That's my attitude, too.

I don't care what they say or do, or how compelling their arguments in or out of court.

I ain't filing their damned old returns and I ain't paying their damned old tax.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-24   20:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Yes, fuck them all, and hope they don't snatch you while you're unarmed.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   20:21:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't care what they say or do, or how compelling their arguments in or out of court.

The masses of ill-informed, voters/taxpayers, democracy lovers, government tit suckers and various other socialist dufases have had their run of influencing my life. Lies, lies, and more lies since birth. Some people simply accept the lies, join in the socialist fun and then try to scam the system by lying themselves into a tax court.

Richard's tagline is perfectly applicable here:

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-24   20:33:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well duh.....you claim to live in Mexico......

Well duh, Social Security is in 173 nations world wide, oh-so-bright-boy. And here, a very large percentage of the people are smarter than to sign up, which is why most Mèxicans do not pay any income tax. Duh.

But I have only been here 10 years, so you probably know a lot more about it than I do. Oh, and I have paid no SS tax since about 1978. But other than that....... Go ahead and fill me in.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   22:11:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Fuck the system, fuck Bush, and fuck anyone that thinks I have to support murderers and thieves or retired govt. toadies.

Yippee!!!! Must be a brother of mine speaking!!! I vote that we appoint noone official spokesman for 4um!!!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   22:13:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'd say we see things quite similarly.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-24   22:18:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No offense but, I've read everything the govt has printed since I began in the movement in 1983, and I know bullshit when I see it.

I have no interest in what the government prints or says or produces, as the government produces nothing.

But, since you're the guy who is NEVER MISTAKEN,

Hey, I make mistakes. And I request correction and thank those who find my errors. I also post in a lot tougher places than this, with a lot sharper people who have a lot more experience than anything I see here, and seldom am found in error; VERY SELDOM. As to 4um, Deacon has caught me a couple of times... or three. But, you have not.

If it did you should (and probably would) make it part of your presentation, or at least a link to it.

I just did, smartass. Read the post again, and take a look at Chapter 2 of the recommended material.

Have you ever beaten the IRS?

The IRS is irrelavant to my life and has been for many, many years. I could care less what your experience is. I also put up a post a few days ago about non-published cases, and how they could be used (they can't be used). That post is by attorneys for attorneys, and as they say; Using Unpublished Cases in State and Federal Tribunals. Now, do something really, really strange, and look up tribunals in a near-by Black-s Law Dictionary. Pay close attention to the part about Roman Law.

But other than that, how is your day going DROWNEDDOG?

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   22:23:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Social Security is in 173 nations world wide

BS you goofy bastard. Cite the source of your stastics. Besides, Mexicans (you) are to social security benefits like cockroaches are to a stale taco.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   22:33:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

since I began in the movement in 1983

You know, I was going to leave this alone.... nope. The only movement that I see you involved in is in the toilet... I hope, for your sake, it is a daily movement.

Other than that, spare me. Anyone, after enough time, and since 1983 is enough time, is going to catch on that something else is going on, unless, of course, they are getting something out of their 'movement.' After that much time ANYONE should be able to at least GUESS that what the average American believes is a lie, OR THINGS WOULD BEGIN TO CHANGE!!!!!

There are enough court cases, many, many of which I have posted, to show the nature of the Constitution and the people who control the United States government. I have posted more than enough info to show the nature of the so- called Social Security tax and the Income Tax, which are inseparable.

Do 'they' obey their own laws? Of course not, because they are lawless, which is, by the way, the very definition of Democracy; a lawless society ruled by those who control the vocal minority. Enough of a minority to sway any vote to 50.01%.

I do not go into their tribunals, and I engage in no activities which may lead me to go into their tribunals. Such as tax protesting. If you owe the tax, pay it. If you contracted for the benefit, ANY benefit, pay the tax. Quit protesting. If you are a US citizen, or have a bank account, where you signed the contract in the bank, and which is denominated in US dollars, pay the tax and quit protesting. Why? Because you have a contract which obligates you to pay the tax. Now, on occasion, people go into their tribunals and confuse some advisory panel and the judge, not wanting to let any cats out of the bag, lets the miscreants go free. BUT, that case is never published. Guess why.

I live separate from the government; I do not go to them, and they have no reason to seek me out. I do not advocate opposition to the government; THAT IS WHAT MAKES THEM STRONGER! I advocate, and I live as I say, being separate. That, however, is very difficult for most, as they have no clue as to what freedom is all about. If you have quesitons about this, ask innieway. He is as free as anyone that I know in 4um. And, I might add, richer as well. But I doubt you will understand what I mean by that!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   22:49:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

My patriotism, love of the flag, the symbols, the pride when watching John Wayne kill redskins or whatever, it all died the day they murdered JFK.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-24   22:55:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

BS you goofy bastard. Cite the source of your stastics.

You never learn, do you Jethro. How many times do I have to make you look like a fool before you stop calling me on things?

http://www.ssa.gov/internatio nal/links.html

Social Security in Other Countries

An ever-increasing number of social security agencies and organizations around the world are publicizing their programs on the World Wide Web. We have listed some of these Web sites below and will be adding to the list as we learn of new sites. Please pass along any additions or corrections using our Feedback form or e-mail to webmaster@ssa.gov.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The above link shows about 115 nations THAT ARE ONLINE WITH THEIR SS INFO. This is certainly not all of the nations world wide that are in Social Security, but it is a pretty good start. Now, you go ahead and look all you want, Jethro. Oh, and yes, Mèxico is included in this list.

And think about it, Jethro; this is an official US government site. Should show a reasonably intelligent man that everything is tied together, but hey, that leaves you out, right?

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   22:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The country died with Kennedy. The Bush vampires have been on a never ending and pretty successful quest to destroy the corpse.

Paying taxes to these ghouls is like buying a shit sandwich.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-24   22:58:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'd say we see things quite similarly.

Yep, I would say so. You, me, innieway, and a couple of others. Makes me think that there is hope for America, not a lot, but some, and screw the United States.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   23:00:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Goofy-boy. Is reading comprehension still a problem? Your material says "social security agencies and organizations" not social security as we know here in the states. That said, it’s time for you to scramble back into your tin roofed hovel and snuggle up next to your mule. The hour, it grows late.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   23:07:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

and a couple of others.

If a normal person paid a bit of attention to your wacky remedies they’d find themselves locked away in a padded cell. Go peddle your patriot dribble elsewhere. Most folks here know better.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-24   23:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Your material says "social security agencies and organizations" not social security as we know here in the states.

This is what is shown on that site; Other Countries' Social Security Agencies

I know this is going to come as a shock, Jethro, esp. to someone who obviously does not read much, but the Social Security Agency within the United States is an AGENCY.

And if you ever bother to study the subject, you would find that everyone of those agencies collect a tax, and that in conjunction with that social security tax, there is also an income tax in everyone of those nations. Each of them promise to pay a retirement benefit, so, where is the difference?

Oh, yeah, I forgot, each of those agencies are NOT in one of the Axis of Evil nations, and, each of them pays a percentage of what they collect to the Crown of England.

Try again, Jethro. Oh, and when you look at the info again, please not that neither Iran nor Iraq have a social security agency in it.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   23:26:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Most folks here know better.

Probably not, Jethro. Most of the people here are not former government tit suckers. So they are more open to info than you are.

I have posted links to a number of other sites where there is a wealth of info on how to live free, and where there are thousands of people studying and learning about freedom, and what needs to change in America to correct the problems. That, Jethro, I well understand, leaves bitch-artists such as yourself out.

It probably comes as a shock to you, but the be-all and end-all of life has nothing to do with a retirement check from the so-called government. And, if you would ever bother to read the material originally posted in this thread, specifically chapter 2 of the info, you would learn, much to your regret, that the government has no legal obligation to pay social security. This is according to the Supreme Court. I assure you, as things get worse inside of the US, you will find that the same holds true for all retirement payments.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-24   23:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

QUESTION: Both Larry Becraft and Tommy Cryer are lawyers with BAR cards and SS#s. Why were they able to win? Why do some win and most don't?

ANSWER: It's at the total discretion of the blackrobed tyrant on the bench, that's why.

christine  posted on  2007-09-24   23:55:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

FREEDOM'S JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE.

now, THAT is the truth.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   0:00:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

QUESTION: Both Larry Becraft and Tommy Cryer are lawyers with BAR cards and SS#s. Why were they able to win? Why do some win and most don't?

ANSWER: It's at the total discretion of the blackrobed tyrant on the bench, that's why.

Christine, if you would read the material that began this thread, you would begin to understand.

That blackrobed tyrant on the bench is sitting in a contract resolution tribunal, which you mistakenly think of as a court. It is not a court. That is why, if you go back to the posts that were done when Cryer 'won,' you will find a post where the so-called judge ranted about 'them' bringing the law and the Constitution into his court. The judge was correct; those two subjects have no bearing on what goes on in that tribunal.

The issue of the Income Tax is one of contracts, and nothing else. Why did Cryer win (and by the way, legally, he owes the tax)? Because he confused the issue by bringing in the law and the Constitution, and the jury bought it, because the judge is not permitted, in open court, to admit the real basis of the Income Tax as pertaining to Social Security.

I have posted this before, christine, numerous times, and either you do not want to accept the info, or, you refuse to read it. Whichever it is, you are doing no one any favors by continuing to promote the myths of the lawyers, about there being no laws about the income tax.

Social Security Enabling Act of 1935

The Social Security Act of 1935

(See Section 8; Income Tax)

Christine, this is an official government site; http://www.nationalc enter.org/SocialSecurityAct.html

TITLE VIII- TAXES WITH RESPECT TO EMPLOYMENT

INCOME TAX ON EMPLOYEES

SECTION 801. In addition to other taxes, there shall be levied, collected, and paid upon the income of every individual a tax equal to the following percentages of the wages …

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Christine, some few do win, and that serves the lawyers just fine, cause that encourages others to buy into the same myths, and they then find themselves in trouble and pay more money to the lawyers. While losing their cases. Pretty vicious circle. And by and large, the lawyers love it.

The bottom line, christine, is that until Americans start to look at things as they really are and stop with all of the non-sense, nothing will or can change. And, basically, that means stop listening to lawyers.

Try reading Chapter 2 of the on-line book I referenced in this post, please.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   1:05:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

FREEDOM'S JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT TO LOSE.

No, christine, this is the truth;

FREEDOM'S JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR NOTHING LEFT EVERYTHING TO LOSE.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   1:07:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

QUESTION: Both Larry Becraft and Tommy Cryer are lawyers with BAR cards and SS#s. Why were they able to win? Why do some win and most don't?

ANSWER: It's at the total discretion of the blackrobed tyrant on the bench, that's why.

I would only add that they were able to convince a jury to acquit them ... whether or not this occurred as a result of the Judge allowing in evidence that was disallowed in other cases, the jury selection was better, or the lawyers were more capable only points out that the system affords many opportunities for differing results regarding the exact same matter.

None of these prima facie victories have any bearing or value as precedent for future liigations, and only muddy the waters.

What most of us perceive as a controversy of law is actually a "war".

Personally, I don't know whether Becraft and Crier are frauds or useful idiots. Their "there ain't no law" defense can at best only be applied in individual cases, resulting in some winners and mostly losers, while never settling the matter conclusively. The billions of dollars collected by the courts and lawyers in fees and fines simply amounts to another tax.

The rulings of prior tax cases and their very careful construction are indicative of the intended confusion that the system creates.

These "no law" arguments would normally be valid under constitutional provisions related to direct and indirect taxation if the "contract clause" didn't exist. Whether the law exists or not is a moot point if the individual concerned has contracted for benefits (even if only the expectation of benefits) with the system. Once a contract or implied trust exists the law of reciprocity controls.

I wish it were a simple matter and that the taxing authorities played fair.

The following comment relates to an earlier post wherein you referenced having assets and licensed occupations to protect that make it virtually impossible to withdraw from the system. I am in complete agreement with this caveat, maybe we were misled (understatement of the millenium) in our youth causing us to pursue occupations that are useful to furthering the globalist agenda or simply bringing us under their control. Irrespective of the reasons we do what we do regarding our choices, sometimes we might need to reconsider them.

Then we might consider our assets and occupations the result of ill informed choices. That these acquired assets may never have existed had we made decisions with maturity and knowledge. A poor example of this being a wealthy drug dealer and a Pharmacist. Both acquire material assets by distributing drugs, one with and one without a license ... neither contemplating the damage they do in order to protect their assets or license.

I have friends that struggle to exist from week to week and MUST remain in poverty and in the system in order to access factor (blood clotting element) for their children that have hemophilia which is expensive (24K per month).

In order for them to obtain the life preserving factor for their kids they must meet governmental guidelines that only allow them limited income. They are trapped, and have no other obvious choice. CPS is a constant threat and their ordeal is fraught with governmental intrusions and obstacles. [There, but for the grace of God, go I.]

All I'm trying to say is that sometimes we place too much importance on material things. The Bible says:

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   6:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The site you reference is a government source, specifically the social security administration. They have a vested interest is making people believe that 173 nations have similar social security agencies as ours. I don’t believe their statistics for a second, after all they also claim those presently paying into the system will receive benefits when they become eligible. Can you can tell us what a citizen of Haiti or Zimbabwe receive from their social security administration? If not it's likely your reference is gold- plated BS. It’s curious a non-American such as yourself would use an American government document as a source, but then again nothing you say should come as a shock. Your purpose here is to offer crack-pot, patriot remedies, all of which have a strong potential to separate decent people from their property and savings. Unfortunately for some, your swill has an audience, albeit small. You personally might have nothing to lose, but others do and it’s they who need to be wary of your zany theories. Richard my friend, you’ve not only crossed over the border, you’ve crossed over the threshold of sanity and it’s there you have relevance, not here.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   8:14:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Your purpose here is to offer crack-pot, patriot remedies, all of which have a strong potential to separate decent people from their property and savings.

Please, explain your reasoning for excluding the governments own statements from their website while at the same time you admit that you comply and admonish others to comply with legalities promoted in exactly the same forum. In other words when Richard supplies the evidence supporting his contention, you deny the legitimacy of the information off-handedly, but bow down and worship the same documentation when you comply with the requirements proclaimed by the same informants, ie., the government.

Are you bi-polar ?

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   8:26:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Are you bi-polar ?

Another patriot, Bible-driven savior crawls out of the wood work....

When Richard (or you) can prove to me the govt. contention that 173 nations participate in a social security scheme, I'll take him (you) seriously. Until then, I pray you both enjoy life in realm of Kookdom.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   8:39:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Please, explain your reasoning for excluding the governments own statements from their website while at the same time you admit that you comply and admonish others to comply with legalities promoted in exactly the same forum.

Ad hominem attacks are perceived as such by the intelligent members of this forum.

Why don't you answer the question ?

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   8:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As far as they're concerned there is no legal way to sell my services to a corporation unless I'm an "employee" or a contractor with an ID # that is used to 1099 me at the end of the year.

That's right - there's not. A corporation is a creation of the state, an individual is NOT. Big difference.

And, nowhere in any IRS, DOJ or federal district, appeals or supreme court literature or decisions will you find your assertion that SS is voluntary and one may go about their life with no involvement in it.

Of course not. That's because it IS voluntary. Isn't that somewhat tantamount to saying "nowhere will you find any assertion that going to the doctor once a year for a check up is voluntary"? If no law exists making it mandatory, then there is no need for a court decision declaring it voluntary.

Consider a U.S. Supreme Court ruling still in effect:

"There is a clear distinction in this particular case between an individual and a corporation, and that the latter has no right to refuse to submit its books and papers for an examination at the suit of the State. The individual may stand upon his constitutional rights as a citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no such duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the constitution. Among his rights are a refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under a warrant of the law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.

Upon the other hand, the corporation is a creature of the State. It is presumed to be incorporated for the benefit of the public. It receives certain special privileges and franchises, and holds them subject to the laws of the State and the limitations of its charter. Its powers are limited by law. It can make no contract not authorized by its charter. Its rights to act as a corporation are only preserved to it so long as it obeys the laws of its charter." Hale v. Henkel, 201 U.S. 43 at 47 (1905).

People who conduct their economic affairs in accordance with Hale v. Henkel operate in the free sector - the real free-enterprise sector. The 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution created a creature called a "U.S. citizen" - euphemism for victim or slave. U.S. citizens are subject to federal and other statutory jurisdiction. The key to understanding Hale v. Henkel lies in the statement "the INDIVIDUAL receives nothing from the state". There's where SS comes into play.

If you look up entries like "14th Amendment," "U.S. citizen," and "person" in Black's Law Dictionary, and do some further research, you'll find that "person" - which includes a "corporation" - is a synonym for slave. You'll also find that one can have the status of "sovereign American," "state citizen," or "sovereign individual" - all more or less synonymous with the "individual" referred to in Hale v. Henkel.

If you read the tax code, you'll find they use the word "person". Nowhere will you find them saying that an "individual" is liable for income taxes. You'll find statutes, regulations, and court rulings saying the "taxpayer" must do this and that, but these don't apply to the "individual." And if you research common law, you'll find that there's been a centuries-old tradition of two classes of people: "freemen" and "slaves." The American Revolution broke the tradition and created a society of free and sovereign people - free individuals. However, since then they have been spectacularly successful in gradually reestablishing the master-slave tradition.

The Social Security number is recognized by other nations and is prima facia evidence that:

1) The numbered citizen is a card-carrying and practicing member of socialism.

2) He has voluntarily waived his absolute right to:

a) Personal Security
b) Personal Liberty
c) Personal Property

3) He can now qualify and expect to receive protection, security, old age benefits, minimum wages, food stamps, and welfare benefits from the government financed by the society at large.

4) He is now under public policy for the good of the whole and is allowed to keep only according to his needs after all his claims and deductions.

5) He is a "taxpayer" within the scope of the I.R. Code.

6) Some of his constitutional protection (Bill of Rights) no longer apply.

7) He has denounced his sovereign status of a "free person" and is administered through a regional district.

8) He is a taxpayer and a collector of his own tax, and can be labeled a tax cheater, a tax protester, and a tax evader if he does not file.

9) He subjects himself to the United States Congress and can be charged criminally for willful failure to file.

10) He has rejected the natural laws or common law, and he has exchanged his blessings of liberty for a mess of pottage. The organic laws of contract are now in force to compel him to abide by his hidden agreements, imposed by his participation in the Social Security system.

The terms, "people," or "human being" are not to be found in the Internal Revenue Code and it fails to properly identify who is required to file. It cannot be found because it is not there. Partaking into the Social Security Act merely identifies one as a person "who is receiving benefits and therefore must meet the burden." Under the ancient concept of Lord Mansfield's maxim "that no man shall enrich himself unjustly at the expense of another," in the eyes of the court, that individual ought to pay the income tax. The common law of quasi contract (as if a contract) is now in full force and effect.

No one can force a citizen into a contractual agreement. The judicial, executive, and legislative branches of the government do not have that power. A tax judge will always remind a litigant that there are no constitutional protection (i.e., right of free speech, privacy) in a tax court (when under contractual obligations). But no judge can order a citizen to participate in the Social Security system. The system is 100% voluntary and whoever joins the system also volunteers into paying the income tax.

Cases which challenged the constitutionality of Social Security simply have not raised the issue concerning the point of whether one must submit an application to join Social Security. It appears that no cases have as yet dealt with it. The reason for this absence of a challenge to such alleged requirement can only be explained by analyzing the act itself to determine if there is such a requirement. Because Congress lacks the constitutional authority to compel membership in Social Security, the act simply imposes no such requirement.

The modern day act is codified at 42 U.S.C., sections 301-433. If there were a requirement that every American join the Social Security scheme, one would expect to find language in the act similar to the following: "Every American of the age of 18 years or older shall submit an application with the Social Security Administration and shall provide thereon the information required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary. Every member of Social Security shall pay the taxes imposed herein and records of such payments shall be kept by the Secretary for determining the amount of benefits to which such member is entitled hereunder." Amazingly, no such or similar language appears within the act, and particularly there is no section thereof which could remotely be considered as a mandate that anyone join Social Security. The closest section of the act which might relate to this point is the requirement that one seeking benefits under the act must apply for the same. But, this relates to an entirely different point than a requirement that one join.

Since the statutory scheme fails to impose such requirement, the next question to be asked is whether perhaps the Social Security regulations themselves might impose such duty. But here, the regulations are no broader than the act itself, and the duty to apply for and obtain a Social Security card or number boils down to the following found at 20 C.F.R., section 422.103:

"(b) Applying for a number. (1) Form SS-5. An individual needing a social security number may apply for one by filing a signed Form SS-5, 'Application for a Social Security Card,' at any social security office and submitting the required evidence...

"(2) Birth Registration Document. The Social Security Administration (SSA) may enter into an agreement with officials of a State... to establish, as part of the official birth registration process, a procedure to assist SSA in assigning social security numbers to newborn children. Where an agreement is in effect, a parent, as part of the official birth registration process, need not complete a Form SS-5 and may request that SSA assign a social security number to the newborn child.

"(c) How numbers are assigned. (1) Request on Form SS-5. If the applicant has completed a Form SS-5, the social security office... that receives the completed Form SS-5 will require the applicant to furnish documentary evidence... After review of the documentary evidence, the completed Form SS-5 is forwarded... to SSA's central office... If the electronic screening or other investigation does not disclose a previously assigned number, SSA's central office assigns a number and issues a social security number card...

"(2) Request on birth registration document. Where a parent has requested a social security number for a newborn child as part of an official birth registration process described in paragraph (b)(2) of this section, the State vital statistics office will electronically transmit the request to SSA's central office... Using this information, SSA will assign a number to the child and send the social security number card to the child at the mother's address."

The purported duty to apply for and obtain a Social Security number therefore boils down to this: you get it if you need it or request it. There is no legal compulsion to do so.

As mentioned, IF you want to conduct business with a corporation then in all likelihood you WILL need a SS number. However if you can manage to conduct your business with individuals ONLY you can manage just fine without one. Granted, living in a big city makes this considerably more difficult, but we all have choices to make in life. Less than 100 years ago nearly half of the people of this country lived on a small family farm...

To me though the "proof is in the pudding". I know 4 people that don't have a SS#, and collectively these 4 people have managed to get by fine for a cumulative total of some 70+ years - without filing a tax return, or paying so much as a penny in income tax, AND without so much as even a letter from them. To me that speaks for itself. It's almost as if without a SS# you don't even exist to them. Think of your SS# is your own unique "barcode identifier" which distinguishes you from the rest of the "goods" on Walmart's shelves - without that "barcode", Walmart's cash registers don't even acknowledge you came off their shelf, and they can't sell you or do anything with you. You're useless to them.

There is a BIG difference in cases like Ed Brown, Irwin Schiff and countless others that had a VALID argument in "tax court" yet were convicted and the individual I'm talking about described in Hale v. Henkel - Brown, Schiff and the others ALL went to court having a SS#; and "individuals" don't get pulled into court at all (or at least haven't to date).

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-09-25   8:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If a normal person paid a bit of attention to your wacky remedies they’d find themselves locked away in a padded cell. Go peddle your patriot dribble elsewhere. Most folks here know better.

Yep - most folks KNOW better, here and everywhere else too. That's why "most folks" take a different route - they either just lick the boots of their masters and comply, or they take the route Ed and Elaine Brown took, or Irwin Schiff's, or countless others. UH, just how has this second route worked out for all these folks???

Most folks DO have a mindset much like your's.
If they were to contract some horrific disease, and the doctor told them "This is nearly always fatal. We DO have a treatment, and it has been successful 3% of the time, so there IS a chance". So the person does a little research and finds 5 people that have all recovered from the same disease - but they used some quackery, off-the-wall remedy - they took 1 lb of 2-day old cow manure and mixed it with a quart of zucchini juice, then stood on their heads for 15 minutes while drinking the vile crap down with a straw.
So they go back to the doctor and tell him of the "remedy" they found, and the doctor says "There's no BASIS IN SCIENCE behind that! It's CRAZY! Pure NONSENSE!"
Like I said, MOST folks mindset will be to go with the "doctor's treatments"; and 97% of them will die...

Let me ask you something.
Do you know everything there is to know? (I don't, and I bet you'd answer NO too)
Well, do you know half of everything there is to know? (Maybe possibly you can answer YES to this one - I don't think I could, buy maybe YOU can)
Now is it POSSIBLE, just POSSIBLE that what Richard, myself, and Noone (who are all saying the same thing) MIGHT be telling you something which is contained in the HALF YOU DON'T KNOW???

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-09-25   9:26:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Now is it POSSIBLE, just POSSIBLE that what Richard, myself, and Noone (who are all saying the same thing) MIGHT be telling you something which is contained in the HALF YOU DON'T KNOW???

Please share with me a few remedies you and your fellow comrades recommend for this rogue government we live under, keeping in mind Richard does not believe the bastards should be shot. Exclude bible references if possible, as I don't believe in fables.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   9:32:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

while at the same time you admit that you comply and admonish others to comply with legalities promoted in exactly the same forum

That the social security administration, or any other govt. agency would put out faulty data is a given. I doubt even your band of kooks would disagree. AFA you choosing to ignore the IRS or any other licensing agency, I say go for it. I don’t think you have anything to lose unlike others here.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   9:51:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I also know several *without a number*, including Neil McIver, who have been drawn into their system anyway. Like JT says, when you have an all powerful rogue government and you have assets (anything they want), they're not going to leave you alone. Sure, some slip under the radar, but that's because of incompetency by the government minions, imo. At this point, there is no solution other than a V for Vendetta scenario where the masses rebel, gather, and do what needs to done. It's way past time to study and read about SS and contracts.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   10:02:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That the social security administration, or any other govt. agency would put out faulty data is a given.

Your propensity to insult others is only surpassed by your double mindedness. You say that the govt. is capable of putting forth bad info yet you turn around and admonish others to just do it anyways because you might lose your stuff.

I don’t think you have anything to lose unlike others here.

The first three words sum you up in toto.

And, the fact that you are willing to say the govt. provides disinformation regarding the SS System but you choose to continue making contributions is indicative of either your dependence upon the system or lack of self-respect.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   10:02:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

At this point, there is no solution other than a V for Vendetta scenario where the masses rebel, gather, and do what needs to done.

Non-compliance is a form of [V] non-violent resistance. IMHO.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   10:07:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Dedicated to determined souls disrupting the degenerates dealing dirty dog shit on disciples of Divine justice.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   10:13:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I doubt even your band of kooks would disagree. AFA you choosing to ignore the IRS or any other licensing agency, I say go for it. I don’t think you have anything to lose unlike others here.

Love em or hate em ... the founders of this country (kooks supreme) decided they were willing to sacrifice their wealth, their lives and their sacred honor to defeat a far less intrusive government.

Us kooks are in good company.

Having taken another couple of minutes to think about it, I decided it may be an important element in establishing firm opposition to the perps for a few to lose their stuff, or be mistreated blatantly by the feds before we are able to muster the back bone necessary to throw the bums out.

Edit: Or if we choose to be cowards we can say ... they asked for it ... kooks !

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   10:24:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Your propensity to insult others

Wasn't it you who called me bi-polar this morning?

Lighten up pony-boy. The reality we live in is simple; when they want you they'll beat and cage you. No bible, no research nor any faux Mexican amigo will be there to help you out.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   10:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wasn't it you who called me bi-polar this morning?

I asked if you were bi-polar ... (I might have to admit an insinuation existed in the question)

The fact of the matter is that they're coming for us whether we comply or don't comply. Ultimately this must result in some form of disruption.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   10:41:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ultimately this must result in some form of disruption.

Yes, they need to be shot. There is no other realistic remedy to the current mess we’re in.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   11:03:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Are you bi-polar ?

Wish I had said that. Explains a lot. Of course, much of the problem with Jethro can be explained by his simply never reading anything. This thread is a good example, where he took only a small piece of the material shown (only what I posted; never looked at the site) and jumped to conclusions based on nothing significant.

He does the same thing regularly. I have caught him commenting on posts after reading the heading and nothing else, and other times just reacting to the comments to a post. And then there are a couple of times he has posted info and had no clue as to what was in the post; BUT, the headline looked good! His comments in those cases were pretty amusing. Esp. after I thanked him for one of the posts, which, to his dismay, proved what I had been saying all along.

With Jethro, it ain't hard to figure out where he is coming from; I GOT MINE FROM THE GOOD OL US of A AND SCREW AMERICA!!!!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   11:11:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

we've come a long way since the founders of this country. it's a whole new world and what worked for them considering the time, logistics, number of people, etc etc won't work now. as you and JT just concluded, there really is only solution. i'm not holding my breath for that to happen en masse, so given that, i have to figure out a way to live the rest of my life practically and with as much peace as i can create for myself.

they can disappear you, me, BTP Holdings, or anyone they want at any time.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   11:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Please share with me a few remedies you and your fellow comrades recommend for this rogue government we live under, keeping in mind Richard does not believe the bastards should be shot.

The ONLY remedy to deal entirely with this rogue government WITHOUT shooting them would require nearly 100% conformity among ALL of "We The People" - and I don't see that happening.

BUT, there IS a small revolution already taking place in this country. It isn't being fought with guns. It isn't something glamorous. And it is slow. However, it may someday succeed. It involves:
1) Relearning what it is to be free, and how "We The People" slowly and voluntarily gave up our freedom. A major first step is to quit feeding at the government trough. (If you haven't read the Wild Pigs Of The Okefenokee I posted yesterday, you should. A very easy read) I outlined in post #41 of this thread how the SS lures us into the tax fraud. It goes beyond this to other contracts which we voluntarily enter into such as Driver's licenses. Each and every contract with the state that you volunteer into puts "money in their pocket". Look at it as giving $5 to a drug addict - you are merely enabling them to stay high a little longer. If you don't feed the baby it will starve and die. We have to quit "feeding" this mess by contracting away our RIGHTS in favor of their PRIVILEGES. Something Richard, Noone, and myself all have in common is a total lack of any licenses (contracts with the state).
2) Take away the power of some of the biggest "corporate entities" or "industries". For example the health care industry and Big Pharma. They exude a great amount of "pull" on the legislature of this country, and all the while produce nothing - except for more illness, misery, and death. EVERY drug they make has "side effects" (many of which are much more serious than the "ailment" which it was designed to TREAT). We must learn to manage our own health, and NOT need the services of doctors and Big Pharma (again starving them out). This is done mainly by our food choices, and I'm not just talking about the "fast food" stuff. Hell, there's not more than a tiny handful of things that come out of the grocery store that's fit for human consumption. And some things like pork, shrimp, and lobster aren't fit for human consumption no matter where you get it. Look at the American diet, chock full of sugar, MSG, Aspartame, fat, yeast, Genetically Modified grains, vegetables and fruits which have been sprayed with toxic chemicals to control pests, things which have been grown in soil which was chemically fertilized, and various industrial products such as store-bought milk (as opposed to RAW, unpasteurized milk). No wonder we're all sick. Something Richard, Noone, and myself all have in common - we don't drink sodas and all the other crap, eat pork or lobster, sugar and "artificial sweeteners" etc. We have also not been to see a doctor in collectively something like 50 years.
3) Education. But NOT an "education" like what is taught in our public schools and colleges. An education which can only be received from a prudent study of everyday life and it's challenges. For example, myself and Noone both are very active in trying to educate the ones around us about the Federal Reserve scam, and advocate (and use) silver as our preferred medium of currency. We're also strong advocates of barter. Something Richard, Noone and myself all do is read avidly. TV sets don't see 10 hours of use per year. The things we read MOST (aside from Scripture, which you don't care to hear about) are LAW, health, economics - the things we most often comment on in this forum...

It goes even beyond what I have outlined here, but I simply don't have time to detail it all. Suffice it to say that it involves common sense.

But like I said, most folks aren't going to care. Everyone will readily admit that we need change in our "rogue" government, but they fail to realize that change begins on a personal level. To quote Richard "How can you change something as big as government if you can't first change yourself?

Exclude bible references if possible, as I don't believe in fables.

I hope this met your criteria. If you choose to believe Scripture is a "fable", you certainly have that right, and I would certainly be willing to fight for you to be able to keep that right. Doesn't mean I agree with you, just that you have that right.
Personally, I find it very difficult (downright impossible in fact) to call any writings which are over 2000 years old that contain prophecies which have played out in history ever since - and continue to do so to this very day right in front of our very eyes - a "fable".
That is the one other thing Richard, Noone and myself all have in common - we have the understanding that the Creator of the Universe is INFINITELY more wise and powerful than even (gasp) the Almighty Government of America (or any other for that matter); and, have committed to HIM. We strive to keep HIS laws, and in "return" (I believe - and in fact He stated in Scripture) that He "has our back". Could this be why we drive around freely without driver's licenses, do business without SS#s, not pay taxes, are not in jail, AND are all healthy and have no need for doctor visits??? Something to ponder on...

BTW, The Creator (or God if you will - but don't get confused, there are more Gods than I can count, and they are all very real. The ONE I am speaking of is NOT the same one the "pulpit parrots" and "religions" talk about) is a HUGE part of the "revolution" of which I speak. This in itself will exclude a great many (unfortunately) like yourself. JT v. Government is a mismatch - JT with The Creator on his side v. Government may not be - or in fact MAY be a mismatch with JT being on top! (Just a bit more "food for thought".)

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-09-25   11:15:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Consider a U.S. Supreme Court ruling still in effect:

Really an excellent reply. Saved it to my puter (all of it) to re-read and enjoy again! And again! In fact, with your permission, I may use part of it in Part III of my series on the Constitution, as I do not think it can be improved upon.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   11:20:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's way past time to study and read about SS and contracts.

Really? Interesting. So your claim, Christine, is that we are to rebel and then go right back to doing the same things all over again so that in a few generations we - our children/grandchildren - get to do the rebellion all over again, right?

We should never learn from our past mistakes; just keep on keeping on and to hell with history cause it ain't possible to learn anything THERE.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   11:25:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

At this point, there is no solution other than a V for Vendetta scenario where the masses rebel, gather, and do what needs to done.

The scope of what this mess has become makes me think that you are right. I'm afraid we have simply run out of time for anything else to work. Between now and when this occurs, I will keep trying other things as I outlined in a response to JT on this thread #55.

BUT, it's not the government and their minions which scare me. It's the Creator of the Universe which commands my biggest attention. HE is the One that decides upon a much bigger time frame on my "quality of life" (or lack thereof) than the 70 or so years of this round of life.

HE is the One that warned us it would be this way - that it would come to this. And in fact "we ain't seen nothin yet". HE tried to tell us NOT to play this game many times - for example: (Jesus speaking here)
Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye [shall] not [be] so

Under the SS system, you are the "beneficiary", and the government is the benefactor...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-09-25   11:30:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Non-compliance is a form of [V] non-violent resistance. IMHO.

Please remember a post I put up some time ago titled Leaderless Resistance. If more Americans had decided to go that route, just as I have done, over the last 50 years, we, as Americans, would not have the problems that we have today.

The simple fact is that I do not need a leader to know what is right and wrong, and, I refuse to cooperate with wrong/evil. That is my line in the sand, and, I have adhered to it for many, many years.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   11:34:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Something Richard, Noone, and myself all have in common is a total lack of any licenses (contracts with the state).

and haven't you both had problems recently because of this? iow, you're fine as long as they choose to leave you alone, but any time they want, they'll come get you. your not having a # or a contract with them won't protect you. i even know of a man w/o the # (or driver license) whose RELIGIOUS beliefs won't allow it and he spends more time in jail than out. he's in their system and they're not going to let him out. they're even going after the mennonites and the amish. no one is immune from the tyrannical power of the state once it chooses to target you. that's why, again, there is only one solution. they need to start disappearing.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   12:12:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

and haven't you both had problems recently because of this? iow, you're fine as long as they choose to leave you alone, but any time they want, they'll come get you. your not having a # or a contract with them won't protect you.

they're even going after the mennonites and the amish.

I would mostly agree with this statement and add that it is a really frustrating position that Americans in general are in. Being told how free we are when it's not true. Maybe it's our upbringing or indoctrination that requires of us that we must first peacefully resist errant law. Then, when we feel the oppression has reached an intolerable condition we are justified in forcefully resisting as we have noticed them. We may lose the battle of force, and they can and will kill some of us ... but they can't kill the idea. The only reason they feel comfortable in forcing compliance is not because of the resistance of a few, but directly related to the compliance of the ill-informed masses.

Not one case of autism among the amish ... could be related to non-compliance with vaccine policies.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   12:36:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The scope of what this mess has become makes me think that you are right. I'm afraid we have simply run out of time for anything else to work. Between now and when this occurs, I will keep trying other things as I outlined in a response to JT on this thread #55.

BUT, it's not the government and their minions which scare me. It's the Creator of the Universe which commands my biggest attention. HE is the One that decides upon a much bigger time frame on my "quality of life" (or lack thereof) than the 70 or so years of this round of life.

understood. i wrote my last post before reading this one.

we all have unique situations and obligations such as family, business partners, pets and others who are dependent on us. my point being, decisions of this nature cannot be made unilaterally. we must make decisions and realistic choices that won't put those to whom we have obligations in jeopardy. incidentally, i'm speaking from experience as we are in the throes of the battle as i type. we've used some sound approaches in dealing with the thieves and, guess what? they're ignoring everything and proceeding anyway. if i told you the details of what they've done in our particular case (JT knows), i think you would more fully understand my and his current attitude. scared? you bet i am.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   12:40:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That the social security administration, or any other govt. agency would put out faulty data is a given.

I was going to leave this thread alone, but that ain't gonna happen when this kind of bullshit is being tossed around.

What proof do you have that ANY data from Social Security, or, for that matter, any other goverment agency, is faulty?!

Why would it need to be faulty when most Americans are just like you; absolute morons who have no clue as to what is actually going on? Who do not read, do not study, have no inkling of the law OR of case law from the so-called courts?

WHY WOULD IT BE NECCESSARY TO PUT OUT FAULTY DATA TO SUCH AS YOU?!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   13:29:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The only reason they feel comfortable in forcing compliance is not because of the resistance of a few, but directly related to the compliance of the ill-informed masses.

The key to the distruction of America.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   13:32:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What proof do you have that ANY data from Social Security, or, for that matter, any other goverment agency, is faulty?!

The social security administration is leading my children to believe that their “contribution” will entitle them to benefits down the line. They and I know this is bullshit. That you fail to recognize this as a lie to keep their Ponzi scheme afloat adds to your buffoon status.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   13:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

we all have unique situations and obligations such as family, business partners, pets and others who are dependent on us. my point being, decisions of this nature cannot be made unilaterally. we must make decisions and realistic choices that won't put those to whom we have obligations in jeopardy.

Here is the difference, christine, between you and me.

I talk about what is right and wrong; you and Jethro talk about assets.

I talk about freedom; you and Jethro talk about holding on to what is yours, when NOTHING is yours; slaves can not own ANYTHING, and everything you list as assets, including your home, came to you as a benefit of 'their' system, through credit.

You TALK about obligations to your family, BUT, do you teach your family the nature of their slavery, and, why they are slaves? Or, do you encourage them to continue in the same manner that you are, cooperating with evil to maintain your lifestyle? Do you teach them about the establishment doctors and what they are doing to people? Do you teach them about nutrition and food, and how that relates to health and clear thinking? Cause if you are not doing these things, you should NEVER mention obligations to your family.

The easy solution (THAT is a lie!) is to think that picking up a gun will solve something; if you actually believe that, I suggest you spend a week or so in Baghdad. Cause that is what you are asking for.

I know it is difficult; I went through it. When I quit paying the SS tax, I was making monthly payments on equipment of $57,000 A MONTH, and, I was making the payments. Over the following ten years, as I cleansed myself, ALL of that went away as I learned, little by little, what was actually going on not only in America, but in the world.

And I had to hit rock bottom before I could begin to climb back up. That means, simply put, that I had to get rid of everything that I had that came to me as a benefit from 'their' system. I DID THAT! Everything.

And the biggest part of the problem within the United States is that the establishment toadies are just as ignorant of the law as you and Jethro are, and they DO NOT LIKE those who are not a part of the system that they worship.

And I left the United States, because as innieway said, man suposses, God disposses, and I know what is coming to America, and, it is well earned and deserved. Any people who turn their backs on God as America has done will suffer judgement, and that judgement will be the more harsh because of the blessings that God bestowed on America through His Law.

That being said, there will be a remenant in America, and my aim is to help that remenant to understand the myrid errors committed by Americans as they traded their birth right for a bowl of lentils (for reference, see the Bible). There are tens of thousands of people working to restore America; but they are doing it one individual at a time, christine, and are not engaged/wasting their time in opposition to a government that has largely lost its relavance on the world stage.

And, it is the loss of that relavance that makes that government so much more dangerous, because it means that they have almost nothing left to lose no matter what crimes they commit.

Will there be a confrontation with that government? Since that government has been preparing for such a confrontation for more than 30 years, I would say that probably there will be. Does that mean that I should now stop teaching and helping people to understand where we, as a people, went wrong? Not hardly. I do not want my people to repeat their stupid mistakes. But until they are led to the solutions, no one in America understands what needs to be done, and the first thing that needs to be done is for Americans to begin to understand the nature of contracts, cause they surely do not understand this subject today.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   14:00:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ping to #65.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   14:02:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The social security administration is leading my children to believe that their “contribution” will entitle them to benefits down the line.

???????????????????????? Why is that a lie?! Social Security is NOT GOING AWAY!!! Everyone will continue to make their con-tributions just like normal, and, there WILL be benefits paid.

The only difference, Jethro, is how big a benefit, and at what age that benefit will start. And that is a political question, and not up to the administrators of the Social Security system.

But just because the political part changes does not make anything about this a lie!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   14:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Why is that a lie?! Social Security is NOT GOING AWAY!!! Everyone will continue to make their con-tributions just like normal, and, there WILL be benefits paid.

And Elvis is alive and well!!!

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   14:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

QUESTION: Both Larry Becraft and Tommy Cryer are lawyers with BAR cards and SS#s. Why were they able to win? Why do some win and most don't?

They made compelling arguments about the IRS' unwillingness to answer simple, good faith questions.

Neither are permitted to offer complicated legal fiction or SCOTUS decisions, or the words of Thomas Jefferson or any of the things we discuss when educating people.

And, despite what I'm sure were the judges' worst efforts to sabotage their cases and confuse the juries, these lawyers won.

It's beginning to look as if all of the esoteric research and legal theories are not the answer in court, wouldn't you say? ;)

And. these arrogant know-it-all-assholes who berate any and all who don't worship their friggin brilliance (cough cough) are all people who have never tested their theories in a place that matters-a courtroom!

And, everyone I know who believed he was just going to march in there and explain it to the jury found the same thing-it wasn't allowed and the juries never heard it.

So, the trick is to put everything you want the jury to see in your correspondence to the IRS. The IRS will ignore it (of course-their mission is to collect money for the fed banksters) but you aren't writing it for their benefit.

So, if you ask the IRS (actually you're educating your jury) why the code says "There is hereby imposed on every person.....who makes a return....a tax". Where is the code section that reads "There is hereby imposed on the wages of every person who does not make a return....a tax"? In other words does the act of making a return impose the tax? If YES but I didn't file no tax is imposed, right? If NO then where is the code section that imposes a tax on persons who do not file? And, if the act of filing doesn't impose the tax then what is the purpose of the above code section? In other words, COULD YOU PLEASE SHOW ME THE LAW?"

These are the things that jurors who haven't spent a lifetime studying the greatest hoax of the twentieth century are asking themselves, and when they send notes to the judges and ask to see the law and receive notes that read, "You have all the information you need" (I say there's a law so take my word for it!)

Well,

This is why some stout hearted jurors serving on unstacked juries are freeing defendants for "tax crimes" more and more.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-25   14:30:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I hate it when the conversation deteriorates to the point where we tend to get smart assed, argue amongst ourselves and seem to ignore the circumstances of others, especially when none of us have the immediate solution to blatant tyranny that can be accomplished peacefully.

Ours is not a simple predicament because we're damned whether we comply with tyranny or resist it. And whenever we get down we need to remind ourselves of others coming before us that have also suffered the consequences of their actions on our behalf attempting to right the wrongs imposed by very evil people.

We, as a nation had been fortunate to enjoy the freedoms that we are having difficulty relinquishing to an asshole like Bush and the current administration. And what appears drastic today has existed all along in a lesser degree but we weren't the direct targets ... yet. Today we are the targets. To me, the most frustrating part of all of this is that nice, well intentioned people in many cases, carry out the dirty work for the despots in pure ignorance, unwilling to listen or in most cases powerless to do anything about it even after awareness sets in.

Without knowing your particular circumstances, Christine, I am able to imagine the sense of remorse that sets in when troublesome times attach themselves like super glue. Our numbers must increase before we quit being picked off one at a time.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   14:30:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

yeah, richard, we've taught our son all of this. he's got his own business and he's got problems now too because he listened to our patriot friend's BS. you act as if i haven't been there, done that. i have and let me tell you, i regret it now. further, we've been used and betrayed by some of these so called patriots whom we thought were principled and loyal friends. i've seen too many of them who are losers (and victims) who spend all their time and energy fighting the system and each other! and therefore never do anything productive in life.

i'm coming to the conclusion that a better idea might be for all of us to jump on the gravy train and attempt to crash the whole damn thing that way.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   14:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And Elvis is alive and well!!!

"Dear Sir Or Madam,

Our records show that you paid 40% of your wages into Social Security for 38 years, and, you are now entitled to a benefits check of 32 Ameros a month. (About 78 cents)

Signed,

Pontius "Apu" Nahasapeemapetilon, IV.,

Social Security Benefits Case Officer"

Suuuure, my kids will work for an "on the books" employer for the entire lives to get in on that!

Such a deal!

LONG LIVE SOCIAL SECURITY!

(the guy who's never mistaken said it ain't going away)

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-25   14:39:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sometimes it's not so much what we say to others that infuriates them, it's how we say it. The name calling and insults serve no constructive purpose. Telling someone that they will have to hit the bottom before they can lift themself out of the mire is another hard thing to consider, while I do think it's true.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   14:43:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

very well reasoned

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   14:45:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the trick is to try to stay OUT of THEIR courts to begin with..but we know they'll come and grab you out of your driveway and take you there whenever they want to...and, for pete's sake, don't resist lest you want a beatin' or a tasin'.

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   14:51:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

i'm coming to the conclusion that a better idea might be for all of us to jump on the gravy train and attempt to crash the whole damn thing that way.

I'm there. The safest and best way to crash this mofo is to overload the system. My guess is that there is a govt. program for everyone, all one needs to do is apply. Even the act of applying bogs down the system. After having spent more than a dozen years mingling w/so called patriots, I've come to the conclusion that there aren't many Bill Gates-types among us. This level (or lack of) income allows for countless “entitlements”. Free government cheese? I’ll take a pound…hell make it five pounds, and pass the food stamps and rent voucher while you’re at it.

I recall a story from years ago, told to me by a rather burnt out hippy. He despised the system so much his idea was for everyone, everywhere to turn on every electrical device we own at the same time. His goal was to blow out the grid and collapse the beast with the sudden surge. Although somewhat off topic, I think the goal - and method - has validity.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   14:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Telling someone that they will have to hit the bottom before they can lift themself out of the mire is another hard thing to consider, while I do think it's true.

I'm convinced that there is no silver bullet in the law or anywhere else to slay the werewolf.

The system will have to collapse, the weak will perish and those who survive will have a 50-50 chance of living in a free system, or another despotic tyranny just like the old one.

If the solution is for Americans to study and learn the nature of contracts, then the solution may as well be, "The American people need to study and become fluent in Latin!"

Americans will fight and die (or sit the war out) based on a short sound bite slogan ("They hate us for our Bush!", or "Dishonor Before Death!") not on contracts or any other concept that they are incapable of grasping.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-25   14:56:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm sure your feelings are more than justified. This fight is difficult and filled with treachery and over zealous "patriot" know-nothings that tell others how to do things they themselves haven't done. And there is frustration because human weaknesses betray us when we least expect it.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   14:56:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

his idea was for everyone, everywhere to turn on every electrical device we own at the same time. His goal was to blow out the grid and collapse the beast with the sudden surge.

Ha hahaha ... when I was a kid in High School we tried a similar project by flushing all of the toilets in the building all at once ... I even threw in a trench coat ... we failed too.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   15:00:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Pontius "Apu" Nahasapeemapetilon, IV.,

Apu

Hilarious :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   15:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the trick is to try to stay OUT of THEIR courts to begin with..but we know they'll come and grab you out of your driveway and take you there whenever they want to...and, for pete's sake, don't resist lest you want a beatin' or a tasin'.

As I've said before, they succeed in bringing no more than 50 criminal tax trials to fruition each year, or, about one per state.

I'm guessing that they don't prosecute that many now.

The system operates of 90% bluff, and because Irwin Schiff stressed that point he was repeatedly struck by lightning again and again.

I believe that the IRS/DOJ will concentrate on prosecuting their own more and more, because they can still get a conviction when the "criminal" is a low level govt employee. They can be required to file returns as a condition of employment, and if the govt must prosecute someone then let them cannibalize their own.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-25   15:02:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I went directly to flushing cherry bombs in unoccupied stalls :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   15:03:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No fear of death or the ramifications of our actions when we're able to enjoy the protective juvenile laws ! God bless youth !

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   15:05:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I recall a story from years ago, told to me by a rather burnt out hippy. He despised the system so much his idea was for everyone, everywhere to turn on every electrical device we own at the same time. His goal was to blow out the grid and collapse the beast with the sudden surge.

As an electrician let me assure him that it wouldn't work.

In order to have the desired effect we'd have to short the grid, not overload it.

There are ample overcurrent protective devices in the system. Every household is fed by a step down transformer with its own fuse. And, each branch circuit is fuse protected, as is every transmission-to-distribution substation.

The worst it would accomplish would be rolling brown or blackouts, which is what happens now when the demand exceeds the online grid capacity.

If you read up on electrical reclosers you'll understand why tree limbs or unfortunate squirrels across the wires don't burn the wires off the poles.

After three automatic resets (faster than we can blink) if the animal or branch isn't burned crisp and no longer shorting the system, the recloser locks that branch circuit out, and it will remain off until a service tech responds and locates the short, determines that it's no longer a problem and manually resets the recloser.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2007-09-25   15:21:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Did I mention he was burnt out :)

So much for the practicality, on to the analogy.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   16:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Both Larry Becraft and Tommy Cryer

I've listened to both of them on short wave quite a bit. Very smart and well- informed men of courage and honor IMHO.

The secret of contentment is knowing how to enjoy what you have, and to be able to lose all desire for things beyond your reach. Lin Yutang

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --- William Casey, Director CIA (Quote from internal staff meeting notes 1981)

intotheabyss  posted on  2007-09-25   16:25:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

i'm coming to the conclusion that a better idea might be for all of us to jump on the gravy train and attempt to crash the whole damn thing that way.

LOL! That makes more sense than going into their system to fight them! Actually, what you are saying in this sentance is not necessary, as 'their' system is not self-sustaining. It will collaspe on its own, which, of course, is why 'they' are preparing for martial law. 'They' have known for a long time what is coming, and, when it would arrive.

You will note/have noted that I have never suggested that anyone use anything I say in a system tribunal, correct? In fact, if you read the post that I did, There is no Constitution, I say directly in that post that what I have reasearched and written IS NOT INTENDED TO BE USED IN 'THEIR' COURTS.

I do not advocate that anyone do anything that will lead to a confrontation and being taken into 'their' system. If you are contracted into 'their' system, pay the tax. Simple as that. Once you decide that you do not wish to be a part of what they are, well, that is what is neccessary if you wish to be free.

I do not remember for sure, but I do believe that we are told in the Bible to pay the tax rather than fight over it; I do know that Jesus did just that: render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars and unto God that which is Gods. Over all, that is pretty good advice, and it keeps one out of trouble.

he listened to our patriot friend's BS. That pretty well describes most of the info that is passed around about the income tax and other contractual obligations, and, the same people that are arguing about such things in court maintain their bank accounts and make their con-tributions regularly to the SS fund.

I have never done that, Christine; what I advocate is being separate. And by experience, I have learned that this takes about ten years before you begin to see the light (at the end of the tunnel -- BUT, if you are not careful, that light will be a headlamp on an approaching train!).

I do warn you, Christine, that once you have started down this path, there is no turning back. You have three choices; 1. Complete the process and cleanse yourself. 2. End up busted by the system, and, probably, in jail. 3. Knuckle under and pay forever, knowing full well that what you do is wrong.

You have already started down the path, so this is just to let you know what you face; I have seen it in many others, including myself. And yes, a good part of the problems that I went through was because I listened to idiots who had no clue as to what they were talking about. And the same BS that they were talking about back in the 80s is the same BS being repeated today, so the more things change, the more they remain the same.

It all comes down to contracts, christine. Period. And as long as you have them, and as long as you have the material assets that you gained while you were in 'their' system, they will not leave you alone, as they consider that the material assets you possess to be 'theirs', which is why 'they' tax it.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   16:39:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think you need this one.....

The secret of contentment is knowing how to enjoy what you have, and to be able to lose all desire for things beyond your reach. Lin Yutang

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --- William Casey, Director CIA (Quote from internal staff meeting notes 1981)

intotheabyss  posted on  2007-09-25   16:44:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I think you're dead right. The ideal/normal economic/political system has been totaly destroyed. What kind of system has our country degraded to? It really isn't a free-market. It really isn't capitalism.

It has been so destroyed, at this time, we couldn't go back to being a true republic with a true free-market. If the Federal budget was slashed say, 70% in one year, the trickle down effect would be a 10.0 earthquake.

States, counties and cities would have to raise taxes to fund the programs that would be defunded, or there would be millions more unemployed.

The Federal government wouldn't lower taxes because of the surplus of say 1.7 trillion because it would have to pay the 9 trillion debt that it owes.

Some would say individuals would pick up the slack and create jobs to fill the unemployed. What jobs? They have been mostly all moved offshore. What demand, if millions are unemployed, how will they pay to purchase goods and services created?

Under ideal and normal circumstances it would work, but this country has been so destroyed and manipulated, I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I have a few friends in the area, and we are all in agreement, we are so fucked, let the system blow up and the cards fall where they may.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2007-09-25   16:46:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sometimes it's not so much what we say to others that infuriates them, it's how we say it. The name calling and insults serve no constructive purpose. Telling someone that they will have to hit the bottom before they can lift themself out of the mire is another hard thing to consider, while I do think it's true.

You are correct. I am very blunt, but, I quit sugar coating things more than 10 years ago. I found out that it really made no difference, EXCEPT, when I quit sugar coating the message, the message stayed with them till they reached the point where they could use the info. Or, needed the info.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   17:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

LONG LIVE SOCIAL SECURITY!

(the guy who's never mistaken said it ain't going away)

You are correct; it is not going away. The only way you can kill Social Security is if you kill the New World Order, because Social Security is the web that creates the New World Order, and, gives it authority over all of the people within all of the nations that have contracted into 'their' system.

And, while you are doing that, you will need to kill the thousands upon tens of thousands upon 100s of thousands of people who have paid into the system and will fight you tooth and nail to keep it going.

Of course, perhaps I AM mistaken, and you have god like powers that can accomplish this. Let's see; in the link I put up, there were about 115 nations shown that have their SS info on line, so just in those 115 nations, I would suspect that there are between 800,000,000 - 1,000,000,000 people in Social Security. Perhaps much more. So I would suspect you are a bit outnumbered if you intend to kill off Social Security.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   17:28:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The system will have to collapse, the weak will perish and those who survive will have a 50-50 chance of living in a free system, or another despotic tyranny just like the old one.

Yes. Correct. You have hit the nail on the head, finally. read Revelations in the Bible.

If the solution is for Americans to study and learn the nature of contracts, then the solution may as well be, "The American people need to study and become fluent in Latin!"

No, the solution is not for all Americans to do this; only those who do so will survive, because the others will still be wedded to 'the system' and will go down with the system.

And if you do not understand this, I suggest that you begin your studies now.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   17:34:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The only way you can kill Social Security is if you kill the New World Order, because Social Security is the web that creates the New World Order, and, gives it authority over all of the people within all of the nations that have contracted into 'their' system.

So you’d suggest that my Aunt Tilly, who is fast approaching 65 and worked her entire life, refuse her social security check when she’s entitled?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   17:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And if you do not understand this, I suggest that you begin your studies now.

But Richard…ZAP….while we’re researching…ZAP….and stud..ZAP..ing……the mofo’s are….ZAP…..tasering our….ZAP…..asses…..isn’t it…ZAP….time to fight…..ZAP…?????

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   17:53:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

LOL

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   18:40:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The name calling and insults serve no constructive purpose.

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-09-25   19:49:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

His goal was to blow out the grid and collapse the beast with the sudden surge.

A thought, but a burnt out thought.

It'll take much more than this.

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-09-25   19:58:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The system operates of 90% bluff

I think its 90% fear, just hearing the initials IRS, gets me to sit up straight.

exdem2000  posted on  2007-09-25   20:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Of course. I suppose I look at his idea differently than most. His LSD, marijuana spiked idea was simple; can a lot of people do a simple, non threatening thing, together, to blow the system to hell? That answer should be where our energy goes and not into digging deep into the murky world of the NWO, illuminati, etc. There is no end to that study and time is our enemy.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   20:05:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Of course. I suppose I look at his idea differently than most. His LSD, marijuana spiked idea was simple; can a lot of people do a simple, non threatening thing, together, to blow the system to hell? That answer should be where our energy goes

Of course. I suppose I look at his idea differently than most. His LSD, marijuana spiked idea was simple; can a lot of people do a simple, non threatening thing, together, to blow the system to hell?

That answer should be where our MONEY goes ...

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   20:16:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So you’d suggest that my Aunt Tilly, who is fast approaching 65 and worked her entire life, refuse her social security check when she’s entitled?

Not at all, I'd suggest you allow her to collect her SS until the day she dies, provided the old girl is willing to sign an agreement that allows you to deep freeze her wrinkly corpse, and continue to collect her SS Checks as agent, by not reporting her death.

Next, you do the same agreement with your favorite heir, and voila, generational post traumatic income disorder is born.

Be sure to have an automated SS account initiated so as to avoid having to shave and dress up like Tilly to cash the checks.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   20:57:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not at all, I'd suggest you allow her to collect her SS until the day she dies, provided the old girl is willing to sign an agreement that allows you to deep freeze her wrinkly corpse, and continue to collect her SS Checks as agent, by not reporting her death.

Now you're talking. And if by chance some social security bureaucrat wanted to actually see Aunt Tilly, visit your local nursing home and offer to take the most brain dead, mouth breather to the zoo for the day. Pin a button on the old gal that says “Aunt Tilly”, present her accordingly and demand to be reimbursed for carfare :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   21:03:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

time to fight…..

I have been Jethro... for a long time and much more effectively than you. And, I have reached thousands and thousands more people than you ever will.

Oh, and thanks for the suggestion; I may need to ask for a new ID, so if you see someone posting in 4um called -you-know-what, do not be surprised if he sounds an awful lot like me........

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   21:28:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The name calling and insults serve no constructive purpose.

Oh, I dunno... blows off my steam.......

By the way, here is a quote from a speach that Bush gave some time ago about Social Security. See if it does not match with what I have been saying;

You know, one thing about Social Security -- sorry to blow on here, but now that you asked -- a lot of people in America think there is a trust. Your money goes in, the government holds it, and then the government gives your money back when you retire. That's just not the way it works. And it's important for the American citizens to understand it's a pay-as-you-go system. And right now, we're paying for a lot of programs other than Social Security with the payroll tax coming in, thereby leaving a pile of IOUs.

There ain't no trust; there ain't never been no trust; and Social Security is simply an income tax under a different name, and that is exactly what is said in the Social Security Enabling Act I have posted and posted and posted.

You can go here for the full transcript of the speech; http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/16/transcript.bush/index.html

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   21:37:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Glad to see you can laugh some richard. And people seem to hate our roust abouts more than we do.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   21:51:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And people seem to hate our roust abouts more than we do.

Yeah... I have noticed that.... go figure.....

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   22:27:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

And people seem to hate our roust abouts more than we do.

Yeah... I have noticed that.... go figure.....

Me three !

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   22:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So you’d suggest that my Aunt Tilly, who is fast approaching 65 and worked her entire life, refuse her social security check when she’s entitled?

Why would I suggest that?! I do not even suggest that you quit, or, for that matter, that anyone else should quit.

What I do expect is that you, AND EVERYONE ELSE, understand what you did/are doing and how you/we got into this mess in the first place.

I do not give legal advice, and never suggest that people follow in my footsteps, unless they are called to do so. I have chosen a hard road, but it is right for me.

But overall, just the simple step of understanding the contractual nature of Social Security, if people would simply think it through, would do away with all of the non-sense about the so-called tax protesters.

After all, if you want the benefit, pay the tax. And shut up about it.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-25   22:33:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you want the benefit, pay the tax and shut up about it.

Unbelievable, it only took 109 posts to arrive here ... without a single fatality.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-09-25   23:02:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

if you want the benefit, pay the tax. And shut up about it.

I'll give my kids your advice. I'm sure their Fortune 50 companies will be more than happy to stop yanking their FICA "contribution" from their checks.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-09-25   23:27:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Unbelievable, it only took 109 posts to arrive here ... without a single fatality.

LOL..and even some amicable exchanges!

christine  posted on  2007-09-25   23:31:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The name calling and insults serve no constructive purpose.

Would you move and be my neighbor? I'll mow your lawn.

(You don't have a pit bull with loose bowls, do you? If so forget it)

"Satan / Cheney in "08"

tom007  posted on  2007-09-25   23:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The ONLY remedy to deal entirely with this rogue government WITHOUT shooting them would require nearly 100% conformity among ALL of "We The People" - and I don't see that happening.

I have to disagree, it will take a much smaller percentage of the population to make a drastic impact. I figure that %25 of the population actively participating in starving the "powers that be" will make one hell of a difference.

It goes beyond this to other contracts which we voluntarily enter into such as Driver's licenses. Each and every contract with the state that you volunteer into puts "money in their pocket". Look at it as giving $5 to a drug addict - you are merely enabling them to stay high a little longer. If you don't feed the baby it will starve and die.

I agree that it goes much further. Shut down all of your bank accounts, and quit paying interest and get the hell out of any kind of stocks, is a fine step in the right direction. This will foster a drop in consumer confidence, which will wake more people up.

But there is also a personal sacrifice involved as well. When you give up your drivers license there is a fine chance that you will be ticketed. After you receive a ticket you may not have the legal capability to fight it well enough to win, or the court may ignore a lawful and perfectly sound argument and find you guilty anyway. In either of these events the court will assign you a fine to pay. This is where personal commitment comes in. Instead of paying the fine, or worse yet, paying to take one of their idiotic little "driver safety" courses to get your but out of the sling, you need to refuse to pay and give your time instead.

The court has to allow you to serve community service in lieu of paying the fine. This action does three things (other than consume your time) 1) you have denied them the funds that they require to keep the whole harassment scheme going 2) you have told the local officers that there is no point in giving you more BS tickets because it will not pay off 3)you can lower the local budget by taking care of the stupid stuff that your local community would have over paid some out fit to do.

Granted, it is a pain in the ass, I know, I am finally completing over 100 hours of community service for two tickets that I received last spring. Two seatbelt violations and no insurance if I remember right.

I had to have a bit of fun with them through it all though, I made them put up my horse while I was working because "I did not want to incur any more violations while commuting to my community service". I know not everyone can ride their horse in to make this an extra special pain for the judge and crew, but they do have to allow you to do community service in your spare time and allow you enough time complete it without interfering with your livelihood.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

ladybug  posted on  2007-09-26   2:03:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Me three !

OK... but I can't joust with someone who thinks like I do! So, we'll gang up on JT; I'll stand on his right foot -- you stand on his left foot -- and when he starts limping, maybe he will shut up for a while!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-26   11:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But overall, just the simple step of understanding the contractual nature of Social Security, if people would simply think it through, would do away with all of the non-sense about the so-called tax protesters.

You are not paying attention, Jethro, as is usual.

if you want the benefit, pay the tax. And shut up about it.

Working for a CORPORATION is a BENEFIT!!!

And if you want the benefit, pay the tax AND SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-26   11:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I agree that it goes much further. Shut down all of your bank accounts, and quit paying interest and get the hell out of any kind of stocks, is a fine step in the right direction. This will foster a drop in consumer confidence, which will wake more people up.

Absolutely. This is the first step in killing the beast; QUIT PLAYING IN THEIR GAME BY THEIR RULES.

I have had no bank accounts for more than 15 years, and I have no Federal Reserve debt, including credit cards, which I maxed out and cut up years and years ago..... and no, I never paid them off! Basically, I told the credit card companies to go fish! (What this means is that I put 'free' money into the system - credit which was not returned and thus destroyed.)

The rest of your post is also correct. We can continue to complain about what is going on, or, we can do something about it, which means that many, many more Americans need to start civil disobediance. Exactly as you say. Which begins to wake up more people as more and more see what is going on.

Beats the hell out of picking up a gun and playing Baghdad!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-09-26   11:26:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Beats the hell out of picking up a gun and playing Baghdad!

I agree Richard, but I fear that we will not be able to muster a mere %25 of the population to give up their comforts to stand up for what they believe in.

I see so many people who wish to be "cyber patriots" may be attend a rally or two and plaster some bumper sticker on their car, but that is as far as they are willing to go.

When it comes right down to giving up time and/or personal comforts, these cyber patriots will take the easy way out every time. So few are willing to live for what they believe in, it is just a fun topic of conversation. Sad.

Unless more people do become willing to live what they believe, and soon, an armed revolution will be necessary to turn this mess around. If that day comes, I will proudly stand and fight. Until then I will do all I can to change this without having to turn to the last resort - war.

Many patriots think that a revolution will be a time of glory, but personally, I can live without glory, I only want freedom.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

ladybug  posted on  2007-09-26   19:41:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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