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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 1440
Comments: 69

The Two Minute Rebuttal

Romans 13

Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same."

I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him.

On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer."

No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government.

Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 22.

#1. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

Well done - thank you.

Point. Set. Match.

Game Over.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-22   22:25:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-22   23:40:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Good link for "Give Us A King!" -

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=354

Lod  posted on  2007-09-23   10:53:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Good link for "Give Us A King!" -

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=354

That IS a good link! Thank you very much! There is a distinct lesson for us in here.

"....Conclusion

I have strongly emphasized the evil and folly of Israel’s demand to have a king. Some may wish to protest by pointing to the text in Deuteronomy 17. Didn’t God say it would be all right for Israel to have a king? If it was prophesied that the Israelites would demand a king, then why does God come down so hard on them when they do so? Let us take a look at this text in Deuteronomy:

14 “When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,' 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses, one from among your countrymen you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your countryman. [ http://www.trosch.org/msn/mason-graphics.html ] 16 “Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the LORD has said to you, 'You shall never again return that way.' 17 “Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself. [ http://www.mountvernon.org/learn/collections/index.cfm/cfid/8980548/cftoken/67435962 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Amo/6/6.html ] 18 “Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests. 19 “And it shall be with him, and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left; [ http://nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm ] in order that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel” (Deuteronomy 17:14-20). [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze017.html#7 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze017.html#10 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Mat/15/13.html ].

This text is a prophecy, and we can see that it is exactly fulfilled when the Israelites demanded a king, just like the nations. **** The fact that something is prophesied is not proof that what is foretold is something good and righteous. The betrayal of Judas is foretold, as well as Israel’s rejection of her Messiah. This does not mean that Judas, or the unbelieving Israelites, were right to do what they did. It only means that God wants us to know it was a part of His eternal plan......"

We, the second Israel, got a similar prophecy:

"....Fourteenth. But the promised nationality was to be a republic.

"Their nobles shall be of themselves, and their governor shall proceed from the midst of them. "Jeremiah 30.'21. The people should be "gathered together, and appoint unto themselves one head. "Hosea 1:11. "I will restore thy judges as at the first, and the counselors as at the beginning. "Isaiah 1:26. Observe "one head" -- a chief magistrate appointed by the people -- governors, judges, and counselors, taken from the masses of the people, are particularly promised, but no king.

The political economy of ancient Israel being a theocratic republic, the promise in the passages is that the officers necessary to constitute a republican form of government would be restored, and the elective franchise would be free, and the people would possess the sovereign right of choosing their own rulers and judges. Surely the doctrine of the Divine right of kings find no authority here; for the power invested in the people is entirely inconsistent with any grade of monar­chy, limited or absolute.

The truth is, the fifth great commonwealth that the God of heaven was to "set up" was so utterly repugnant to monarchy, in all its forms and phases, that it should destroy it from the face of the earth. And we have every assurance that if the Almighty designed to bless a people by conferring upon them a particular form of political government, such form could not possibly be a monarchy.

A most memorable instance of Divine disapprobation of the establishment of an earthly king among men is recorded at the coronation of the first monarch of Israel. Said Almighty God to Samuel the prophet, "Protest solemnly, unto them, and show unto them the manner of the king that shall reign over them. He will take your sons, and appoint them for his chariots, and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots. And he win take your daughters to be confectionaries, and to be cooks, and to be bakers. And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your olive yards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants. And he will take the tenth of your seed, and of your vineyards, and give them to his officers, and to his servants.

"And he win take your men-servants, and your maid­servants, and your goodliest young men, and your asses, and put them to work. He will take the tenth of your sheep; and ye shall be his servants. And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king, and the Lord will not hear you in that day" I Samuel 8:9-18.

Such is the solemn protestation of the God of heaven against an earthly monarchy; and faithfully has the history of earthly kings confirmed the truth of the Divine prediction. Then it is absolutely certain that a political government, selected and "set up" for the sons of men by Jehovah, would not be a monarchy. But this very fifth government was to be "set up" by the God of heaven; therefore the fifth govern­ment, not being in any possible case a monarchy in any grade, ***** must be a republic......"

The United States Of America Foretold In The Holy Scriptures

by Rev. F. E. Pitts

Feb. 22 and 23, 1857

http://www.originofnations.org/old_bi_literature/Pitts.htm

"must be a republic".....IF YOU CAN KEEP IT, SAID THE SLY BEN FRANKLIN.

"The Constitution is just a G-D piece of paper", says our "Unitary Executive", i.e. greedy and ruthless KING, just as God and Patrick Henry predicted:

"....This Constitution is said to have beautiful features; but when I come to examine these features, sir, they appear to me horribly frightful. Among other deformities, it has an awful squinting; it squints toward monarchy, and does not this raise indignation in the breast of every true American? Your president may easily become king. Your Senate is so imperfectly constructed that your dearest rights may be sacrificed to what may be a small minority; and a very small minority may continue for ever unchangeably this government, altho horridly defective. Where are your checks in this government? Your strongholds will be in the hands of your enemies. It is on a supposition that your American governors shall be honest that all the good qualities of this government are founded; but its defective and imperfect construction puts it in their power to perpetrate the worst of mischiefs should they be bad men; and, sir, would not all the world, blame our distracted folly in resting our rights upon the contingency of our rulers being good or bad? Show me that age and country where the rights and liberties of the people were placed on the sole chance of their rulers being good men without a consequent loss of liberty! I say that the loss of that dearest privilege has ever followed, with absolute certainty, every such mad attempt.

If your American chief be a man of ambition and abilities, how easy is it for him to render himself absolute! The army is in his hands, and if he be a man of address, it will be attached to him, and it will be the subject of long meditation with him to seize the first auspicious moment to accomplish his design, and, sir, will the American spirit solely relieve you when this happens? I would rather infinitely--and I am sure most of this Convention are of the same opinion--have a king, lords, and commons, than a government so replete with such insupportable evils. If we make a king we may prescribe the rules by which he shall rule his people, and interpose such checks as shall prevent him from infringing them; but the president, in the field, at the head of his army, can prescribe the terms on which he shall reign master, so far that it will puzzle any American ever to get his neck from under the galling yoke. I can not with patience think of this idea. If ever he violate the laws, one of two things will happen: he will come at the head of the army to carry everything before him, or he will give bail, or do what Mr. Chief Justice will order him. If he be guilty, will not the recollection of his crimes teach him to make one bold push for the American throne? Will not the immense difference between being master of everything and being ignominiously tried and punished powerfully excite him to make this bold push? But, sir, where is the existing force to punish him? Can he not, at the head of his army, beat down every opposition? Away with your president! we shall have a king: the army will salute him monarch; your militia will leave you, and assist in making him king, and fight against you: and what have you to oppose this force? What will then become of you and your rights? Will not absolute despotism ensue?

SOURCE: The World's Famous Orations, Vol.1 Pg.67-76

Patrick Henry's fears about the inadequacies and defects in the Constitution have been realized now in the 21st century -1681 years later. It has been a good run, but what will our children and grandchildren have to live with? "

Shall Liberty or Empire be Sought? Patrick Henry, 1788

[From a speech made on June 5, 1788, in the Virginia Convention, called to ratify the Constitution of the United States.]

http://www.barefootsworld.net/liberty_empire.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-09-23   12:37:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Patrick Henry's fears about the inadequacies and defects in the Constitution have been realized now in the 21st century -1681 years later. It has been a good run, but what will our children and grandchildren have to live with? "

"...In the final analysis, Israel’s finest kings fall far short of the standards set down by God in Deuteronomy 17. The failure of both David and Solomon in these areas is self-evident. In the end, there is only one person who has ever met these qualifications, our Lord Jesus Christ. He was rich, but He became poor on our behalf. He did not have or employ earthly power to establish His kingdom. He certainly did not multiply military might or wives. And so it is that Christ and Christ alone is fit to be God’s King, to reign on the earth forever and ever.

11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped (Revelation 5:11-14).....

I find it interesting that the Israelites want a man to make their god. It will never work, and the price for trying will be great. God’s way is to make God a man, a God-man, to save man from his sins and to rule over the earth as God’s King, the promised Messiah. This promised King who was prophesied to be both God and man is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ.

We should learn one last lesson from this text: God sometimes gives us the thing we want and even demand, even though it will prove to be painful to us. I am reminded of that passage in the Psalms which speaks of the Israelites’ complaining because they have no meat, prompting God to give them their bellies full. It goes this way:

15 So He gave them their request, But sent a wasting disease among them (Psalm 106:15, NASB).

15 And He gave them their request, but sent leanness into their soul (KJV).

There is a persistence in prayer and petition which is not an evidence of faith, but evidence of lustful greed. There is a perseverance in prayer which is not pious at all. It is possible that if we persist in asking for that which is not best, God may give it to us. It will be painful if this happens, but in giving us what we so desperately want, God disciplines us so that we learn to leave these things in His hands. In biblical terms, we must focus on seeking God first, and trust Him to add all those things He deems best for us (see Matthew 6:33). Let us be cautious that our requests to God are not demands. Let us learn from the Israelites of old so that we need not walk the path they had to walk."

Give Us A King!

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=354#

===============================================

In the end, when all is said and done, God willing, THIS is what our children and grandchildren will live with:

Jer 30:9 — But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Eze 34:23 — And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

my servant

David king of Israel had been dead upwards of 400 years; and from that time till now there never has been a ruler of any kind in the Jewish nation of the name of David. By David, then, we must understand the Messiah, as the Jews themselves acknowledge, so called because descended from him, and also as being the well beloved, [o agapetos] Son of the Father, as the name imports, and in whom all the promises made to David were fulfilled. See the references. Eze 37:24,25; Isa 11:1; Isa 55:3,4; Jer 30:9; Hsa 3:5; Rev 22:16

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eze/34/23.html

Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa009.html#6

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-09-23   13:27:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Not to be picky, but our Constitutional Republic has only made it 231 years...not all that hot in the grand scheme of things.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-23   13:42:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Patrick Henry's fears about the inadequacies and defects in the Constitution have been realized now in the 21st century -1681 years later.

=====================================

Not to be picky, but our Constitutional Republic has only made it 231 years...not all that hot in the grand scheme of things.

lol! you're right...me bad! i completely missed that! i'm sorry, my eyes seem to get worse every day....time to make that dreaded [and expensive] trip to the eye doctor, i guess.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-09-23   14:19:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#23. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#22)

..time to make that dreaded [and expensive] trip to the eye doctor, i guess.

I don't know where you live, but here in Austin, there are enough eye docs to keep the prices fairly reasonable.

Good luck with it.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-23 14:52:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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